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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) => Topic started by: Anonymous on May 19, 2005, 09:32:00 PM
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Mother Responds to Ivy Ridge Stories
Malaica Valiente
Davie, Fl
http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/let ... 050518.htm (http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/lettertoeditor/valiente_malaica050518.htm)
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I don't know why and I don't know how, but the girls program is very different from the boys program. I don't think the typical North Country man knows how to bring another boy/man in touch with his feelings to begin corrective behavior. Corrective behavior is brought about by humilation and intimidation. Very manly, not worth the money.
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Looks like the behavior modification has worked in your life. Do you think that maybe you've been duped. It sounds as though you really didn't have time to parent THREE children working long hours. The two usually don't work. When you have kids - they need to be your priority. Sounds like one was difficult for you so you gave her to someone else - out of your hair - finally you could sleep. Unbelievable. How could anyone sleep when their child is in a lock down facilty? The things you read about these programs are true. Thousands of personal accounts can't be all wrong. There are too many similarities. Your daughter is smart - she's telling you what she's been told to tell you. If she told you what was really going on she'd be punished. Don't you know that they censor mail? You need to stop drinking their koolaid and realize that there are valid reasons to not send your child to a residential facility for any length of time. Is it just so you can sleep and interact with the two "good" kids?
The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system.
--Thomas Paine, American revolutionary
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If you want to know the common denominator between the kids placed in ivy ridge and about 85% of the people in jail, it is they were raised by a single parent. A WOMAN. you can bear children, just don't know how to raise them.
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umm... you are a psycho. there are plenty of jobs in the referall biz.. Im sure youd fit in nicely.
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On 2005-05-20 08:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
" If you want to know the common denominator between the kids placed in ivy ridge and about 85% of the people in jail, it is they were raised by a single parent. A WOMAN. you can bear children, just don't know how to raise them."
hahaha
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As a former employee of AIR I know many students that have graduated the program. Once they get past the resistant stage they realize it is not a bad place and it can help them save their lives. I can't sit here and say it is all good. But they do learn a lot. They will still be kids when they leave and sometimes they will get in trouble. But, all that I know always have great things to say about the place. It is the kids that choose to see all bad that have so many problems with the place. As for the mother that wrote on here, I knew her daughter when I worked there. From what I knew of her she really did seem happy. There was no reason for her to "fake" happiness to me.
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On 2005-05-20 12:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"As a former employee of AIR"
That says it all.
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On 2005-05-20 12:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"As a former employee of AIR I know many students that have graduated the program. Once they get past the resistant stage they realize it is not a bad place and it can help them save their lives. I can't sit here and say it is all good. But they do learn a lot. They will still be kids when they leave and sometimes they will get in trouble. But, all that I know always have great things to say about the place. It is the kids that choose to see all bad that have so many problems with the place. As for the mother that wrote on here, I knew her daughter when I worked there. From what I knew of her she really did seem happy. There was no reason for her to "fake" happiness to me. "
Kids who have graduated the program have already been brainwashed to believe the program has saved their lives nad that it is not abusive. Therefore, their opinion doesn't really mean much, because it is not based on an objective consideration of facts. It is based on coercion, Lifespring seminars, and techniques developed by the Koreans to torture POW's. There's no reason to trust the opinions of a program graduate-- it is not his/her own, anyway.
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Former emp, did you go through the program?
Bigot: One fanatically devoted to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and intolerant of those who differ.
Webster's
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Why is it that if they have graduated they have been brainwashed? Maybe the people that that think that just could'nt make it. Everyone on here is so close minded!!
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I don't think it's so much closed minded as the need to control or "being right." Amanda graduated,I think, yet it looks like the anti-program brainwashing is working on her. Anyone can find negative in most everything, the real growth and the real challenge is finding the positive. There's also a big difference in complaining and actually doing something to change what we don't like outside of forums and newspapers, etc. Writing and talking to newspapers is the easy way out because 90% of the time (just my unfounded guesstimate) they want the sensational and victimy stories. I can look around my neighborhood, my local grade and high schools and find tons of things that I don't agree with. I can either complain about it or take action in a positive direction. Closing programs is not a positive direction, because it will never happen to the degree you all want it to. One down - 2000 to go. But, whatever fills your heart....... The positive stories from Ivy Ridge and other WWASPS programs far, far outweigh the negative.
P.S. Blaming something or someone else for what has happened in your life takes the responsibility away from yourself - Unless you were truly physically abused, that mindset will only keep you stuck. Does that put you in a happy place?
PHX
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On 2005-05-21 07:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why is it that if they have graduated they have been brainwashed? Maybe the people that that think that just could'nt make it. Everyone on here is so close minded!!"
Not closed minded-- just realistic. I would be very happy to be proved wrong on this issue, but everything I've seen and read so far confirms that WWASP is a cult that abuses, coerces, brainwashes its prisoners into believing they were helped and that the program is not abusive or harmful in any way.
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On 2005-05-21 08:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"anti-program brainwashing"
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Get a fucking clue!
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PHX,
Glad to see you're signing your posts. Please feel free to register a username. It's been somewhat frustrating for me to be the only one able to make an educated guess about who you are when you post and unable to comment on it w/o betraying a trust.
P.S. Blaming something or someone else for what has happened in your life takes the responsibility away from yourself - Unless you were truly physically abused, that mindset will only keep you stuck. Does that put you in a happy place?
Yes, it does. It would be hysterrically funny if it weren't so damned sad!
Blaming yourself for what someone else has done to you makes you a perpetual victim. That's how the Synanon method works to compel the captive to enforce their own imprisonment. Do you honestly believe that mental/emotional coercion is OK? As long as you don't leave bruises or scars, it's OK?
Here's the M-W definition of undue influence:
http://www.answers.com/topic/undue-influence (http://www.answers.com/topic/undue-influence)
It's not just "manipulation" invented by malcontents who refused your benevolence. It's actually a legally recognized matter of law. And I think the troubled parent industry should probably brush up on that area of law. I think it's only a matter of time before someone makes a good case against one or another of the big players based, in part, on undue influence.
While we're on the topic of definitions, here's another one.
M-W.com
Main Entry: news
1 a : a report of recent events b : previously unknown information (I've got news for you)
2 a : material reported in a newspaper or news periodical or on a newscast b : matter that is newsworthy
3 : NEWSCAST
Look at 2b: matter that is newsworthy. No newspaper is ever going to run a headline saying "Absolutely nothing of interest happened at Ivy Ridge today". Riots are newsworthy. Are you suggesting that the media should ignore them and not report on them when they happen? And do you think it's insignificant that they keep happening in WWASP programs? Think about it. There are many hundreds or thousands as many kids in JDC around the country as in private gulags. But they just don't riot anywhere near as frequently, do they? Can you explain that?
No gods, no masters.
--margaret Sanger
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Antigen - you are twisting what I wrote. Ever consider being a newspaper journalist?
No, of course I don't think it's okay to be physically or emotionally abused. Being in a WWASPS program, is not physically abusive nor emotionally abusive.
What I'm saying is that, for example, a 15 year old who has had control of the home, the parents, abusing them emotionally, doing whatever they wanted, absolutely would think they were being emotionally tortured because they couldn't leave and had to learn the world doesn't revolve around their every whim destructive or not. I truly believe they think they are being emotionally abused because I was in a similar situation as a teen.
I believe they think they are being abused because they are in a place where they are asked by their peers and their therapist, their parents and others in their family to take a look at what got them there in the first place.
They are asked to take responsibility for "THEIR" actions and instead want to blame everyone around them for what got them there.
I don't know of a single parent were the motivation was to "get rid" of their kid and pay out of pocket what monetarily for adds up to a new car. I look at it as an investment in a kid's life. The old car can always be replaced later.
Go ahead and blame others for what you all say never happened (life destructive behavior.) One day you will look back, and you will at some point, and see what motivated your parents to give you this gift. I can only say this about WWASPS as I have zero experience with the other programs out there.
As for why WWASPS is in the news a lot. I see most of it being instigated by the competitors. Would the competitors say anything GOOD? NOT! Would they want to bring WWASPS down? YES!
I suspect that the Aspen group schools could very well have the same allegations, so why are they in the news with good stuff being said about them? Because they are successful in working with kids from what I know of them, just different. That doesn't mean the allegations aren't the same. They are, almost word for word.
The riot at Ivy Ridge is the only riot I know about in a WWASPS program in the 6 years I've been around that wasn't instigated by Costa Rican or Mexican federales. THe IRA riot was handled in a very short period of time. That is newsworthy and true. What else am I missing since you (Antigen) think it happens all the time?
PHX
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Being in a WWASPS program, is not physically abusive nor emotionally abusive.
That's a lie.
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On 2005-05-21 15:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Antigen - you are twisting what I wrote. Ever consider being a newspaper journalist?
I don't think I am.
No, of course I don't think it's okay to be physically or emotionally abused. Being in a WWASPS program, is not physically abusive nor emotionally abusive.
I'm sure you believe that. None the less it's false.
What I'm saying is that, for example, a 15 year old who has had control of the home, the parents, abusing them emotionally, doing whatever they wanted, absolutely would think they were being emotionally tortured because they couldn't leave and had to learn the world doesn't revolve around their every whim destructive or not. I truly believe they think they are being emotionally abused because I was in a similar situation as a teen.
By the same token, a normal kid who's been blessed w/ idiots for parents would certainly consider a forced strip search to be abusive.
And that's just the initiation. How about reading private journal entries out loud in front of all the other kids? Or coercing false confessions from the kid and sending them along to mom-n-pop?
Any sane person would consider the normal, day to day operation of these programs to be quite abusive.
I believe they think they are being abused because they are in a place where they are asked by their peers and their therapist, their parents and others in their family to take a look at what got them there in the first place.
I think they think they're being abused because they're forced to denounce themselves as whatever the untrained staff and other unfortunate teenagers accuse them of. And if they don't, they never go home.
I was in a similar situation as a kid. Believe me, it sucked!
They are asked to take responsibility for "THEIR" actions and instead want to blame everyone around them for what got them there.
No, they're not asked anything. You know that. They're told what they are, what they've done, who they are and required to agree. That's not the same as taking responsibility for one's actions. That's taking the blame for someone else's highly unpleasant imagination.
I don't know of a single parent were the motivation was to "get rid" of their kid and pay out of pocket what monetarily for adds up to a new car. I look at it as an investment in a kid's life. The old car can always be replaced later.
Sure, that's what they say. But people manage to justify and rationalize all sorts of messed up things. Not all Program parents are just trying to get rid of their kids. But I have run into a few where it was more than obvious. I know a few kids who's parents actually moved and left no forwarding address while the kids were in the programs. Just plain out abandoned them.
But most are just delusional about your newage god-in-a-bottle cure for all their parenting worries, no matter how trivial or skewed.
Go ahead and blame others for what you all say never happened (life destructive behavior.) One day you will look back, and you will at some point, and see what motivated your parents to give you this gift. I can only say this about WWASPS as I have zero experience with the other programs out there.
Dude! I'm 40 years old! I have kids older than I was when I went into a program. How long does this take to start working? I understand very well what motivated my parents to put me in the Program. And I understand why you advocate it. It's just that you lack the perspective of the kid and also that of a parent who did not ship her troublesome teenager off.
As for why WWASPS is in the news a lot. I see most of it being instigated by the competitors.
You guys just keep on telling yourselves that, but nobody else believes it. Are the governments of Mexico, Czeck Republic, Costa Rica and New York all somehow in competition w/ WWASP? The only competition I can' think of that you'd be refering to here would be Sue Scheff. In case you haven't kept abrest of current events, Sue is not exactly our friend anymore. Not since we started to find out about Whitmore and New Horizons.
You're absolutely tripping your brains out on this one. I don't think there's a single quote from any competition in any of the news on the Ivy Ridge Riot or Thayer or a whole lot of the other well publicized stories. Hell, this goes back to like 1998 when 48 Hours did that early expose. You think CBS is secretly running teen gulags or something?
I suspect that the Aspen group schools could very well have the same allegations, so why are they in the news with good stuff being said about them? Because they are successful in working with kids from what I know of them, just different. That doesn't mean the allegations aren't the same. They are, almost word for word.
Maybe Aspen is not quite so over the top as to generate the kind of stories WWASP does. I don't know. There's a little bit about them posted around here. Hopefully we'll get more info.
The riot at Ivy Ridge is the only riot I know about in a WWASPS program in the 6 years I've been around that wasn't instigated by Costa Rican or Mexican federales.
Do you hear yourself? Isn't it a little paranoid to think the authorities are all against you like that? Doesn't WWASP get the results they intended? How come when a kid lands in a program, they definitely, 100% deserve it but when WWASP gets a spankin' in the media, it's always someone else's fault?
THe IRA riot was handled in a very short period of time. That is newsworthy and true. What else am I missing since you (Antigen) think it happens all the time?
PHX"
You probably know more than I do. I would imagine it doesn't always make the news. I know of several riots in Straight locations that never got any ink at all. They were able to put a lid on it w/o outside help, so no one outside ever knew about it.
I cannot see how a man of any large degree of humorous perception can ever be religious -- unless he purposely shut the eyes of his mind and keep them shut by force.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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//Being in a WWASPS program, is not physically abusive nor emotionally abusive. //
Sure it is. It is always emotionally abusive and often physically abusive. Do you not think it emotionally abusive to prohibit conversation for months and months? Did you know lower level kids are not allowed to Talk? Do you realize how long some kids remain on the lower levels? This is not a day or two of holding one's tongue. This is months of what amounts to isolation in a crowd.
And, I am sure you Think you know how restraint is used; but if you don't think it abusive, then you do Not know - or, your one cold and callous brute.
These are just a couple of the methods used in the program that are abusive - there's more.
// I believe they think they are being abused because they are in a place where they are asked by their peers and their therapist, their parents and others in their family to take a look at what got them there in the first place.
They are asked to take responsibility for "THEIR" actions and instead want to blame everyone around them for what got them there. //
This is the crap and pabulum they feed you to keep you satisfied and manageable.
Yes, kids, and people in general, tend to confuse privilege with necessity; but the lack of sanitation, and the crowding, and the very poor diet, are not cutting back on privileges - but necessities.
I recall how when ever a parent on the BBS voiced concern about some of the program's stark and rigid methods, they were reminded it was the kid who put themselves there. "He/She put themselves there" is a common refrain. I think they teach this to the parents, in much the same manner as the pigs taught the sheep to chant ,"four legs good - two legs better!" in Orwell's Animal Farm. So much of the program speak seems like this - mindless repeating of words that only serve to keep people under control.
// I don't know of a single parent were the motivation was to "get rid" of their kid and pay out of pocket what monetarily for adds up to a new car. I look at it as an investment in a kid's life. The old car can always be replaced later. //
I don't know any either - but you can be sure they do exist. Keep in mind, for some people, the price of a new car is pocket change. The cost is irrelevant to such people.
But I agree, Most are looking for help with a child they love and they think they found an answer. In My Opinion, They think this partly due to the desperation dulling their ability to think clearly; some slick marketing and some out right fraud.
// As for why WWASPS is in the news a lot. I see most of it being instigated by the competitors. //
This is just to silly to be believed. Antigen gave you a good reply - I hope you'll read it over several times and let it sink in.
// The riot at Ivy Ridge is the only riot I know about in a WWASPS program in the 6 years I've been around that wasn't instigated by Costa Rican or Mexican federales. //
Now, WHY would the MX or Costa Rican officials want to start a riot? Hummm? Come on now - thats just goofy. But in light of the fact the governments were beginning an investigation, there might be motive for others to have a little rioting take place. Things get lost and destroyed in riots. If a riot was instigated, as you say, I do Not think logic points to the Federales . . . No, I think it points off in another direction altogether.
But apart from instigation, (Which there is no indication of at Ivy Ridge or any were else for that matter) it is pretty well understood what kind of conditions cause rioting - and I know I would not be happy about paying thousands of dollars a month, to house and educate my child in under such conditions.
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While googling my mother's name I come accross this (yes, I was bored). I'm the editorial's author's son, and my sister was in the program (well yeah you can see that from the letter). She graduated a short while ago, and she's living at home now.
My sister was in the program for about 1.5 years. Graduating from the program, I can't really say she's been brainwashed in any way. Her personality remains unchanged; she's the same person that she was before minus the tantrums and running away. She still speaks her mind, is still the same ambitious girl, and still has occasional arguments with our mother.
Another idea that seems to be in some of your heads is that the parents are just trying to get rid of their kids. I'm not saying that isn't the case for some, the only program parents that I've met are those who are actually trying to work the program with their kids. Obviously they're not expieriencing it 24/7 like the students, but they try their best. For most of the program parents I met, the tuition of these schools is not merely pocket change; most of them (that I have met) had to go through a lot to obtain the financial means of sending their children to this school.
I can see why many wouldn't like the program; I don't know what I would do if I had so many things I take for granted taken away from me (i.e. permission to speak). I doubt the purpose of this is to simply emotionally abuse the studnets, but rather to give them an environment completely opposite of what they're used to. They put them in an environment where they have no priviledges, and they work up from there.
I'm not saying the program is perfect, and I'm not saying all their ideas and practices work all the time. I'm not saying people who didn't enjoy the program are just lying about any kind of abuses to give it a bad name. I'm just saying what I've observed.
//"He/She put themselves there" is a common refrain. I think they teach this to the parents//
Actually, the parent seminars also put acountability on the parents too. I don't know if it used to be, but it's not just a blame-the-kid program.
//Kids who have graduated the program have already been brainwashed to believe the program has saved their lives nad that it is not abusive. Therefore, their opinion doesn't really mean much, because it is not based on an objective consideration of facts.//
That sounds like a very cheap attempt at pointing out fallacies in opposing arguments. It's pretty easy to win the argument when everyone opposing you is either brainwashed or threatened to not tell the truth, eh?
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^ Same poster as above.
I just realized this is a pretty old thread, so don't get mad at me for bumping it.
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Davie, FL, huh?
I'm about a 3 minute ride from there.
You can read my thread at http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=12812&forum=44 and my desperate plea for the mother of the girl in this thread (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=12820&forum=9&5) to contact me. I haven't slept but I'm going stay up waiting. That is how strongly I feel against the programs in all but the most dire consequences - and even then I'd never recommend a WWASPS program.
Maybe your kids were helped by the program, and if so, that is fantastic. Unfortunatey, I really believe the damage might not be apparent for many years, possibly many decades to come.
I know my parents, and parents in general. You might disagree with everything I have to say, and you will always defend your decision as I'm sure you have done what you think is right. But maybe you'll remember reading this, and if my suspicions are correct, in a few years from now, you'll be dealing with bigger things than you bargained for!
Maybe you (or your son that posted here) want to talk over coffee or something one day? Knowing other program(-ed) parents, probably not.
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The son again
Maybe you (or your son that posted here) want to talk over coffee or something one day? Knowing other program(-ed) parents, probably not.
I doubt she's reading the thread though since the post was just quoted from an editorial, and not actually posted by the author. Or at leaset that's how it seems.
I'm not sure about my mother, but I can talk. I'm living out of town at the moment for school, but you can still IM me at Jimiisama on AIM or Yahoo or at Jimiisama@hotmail.com on MSN if you'd like.
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***Actually, the parent seminars also put acountability on the parents too. I don't know if it used to be, but it's not just a blame-the-kid program.
Well you got the rhetoric down.
What I understand is that the parents are encouraged to take a vacation and send a letter stating what a good time they're having without their kid.
So, both parties need to be 'accountable' for the difficulties... but one is rewarded with a vacation and the other is punished with placement in teen gulag warehouse?
The scales will never balance in program-land.
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I think all of this debate still misses the point about WWASPS and programs. I read notes about efficacy, abuse, and coercion but few seem to really get to the heart of what makes these programs unethical and even evil. It is really about dissent.
I am old enough to remember the youth movement of the late 1960s and early 1970s. Civil Rights, Womens' Rights, Gay Rights, and an end to a war came about because young people rebelled against the established adult order. Many positive changes were made; not the least of which is the greater transparency that the government and large corporations and other organizations must now operate under. The slogans included "Question Authority."
The point here is the combination of young people and dissent. What makes all these programs wrong is the simple fact that they allow no dissent. In this way, they are no different than Soviet or Communist China style re-education camps.
What I see happening in these programs and the country as a whole is growing intolerance towards dissenting youth. Young people are sent into programs for talking back and not respecting authority. This is exactly what young people are supposed to do! If they stop, progress stops.
It does not matter if the programs 'work.' So what if some people come out of them accepting the views of the program? Maybe they were brainwashed or maybe the reasoning just makes sense to them. That is not important. Whether or not some people are helped and some are not or how many fall on each side of the line is not important. What is important is how those young people who disagree with the program and its methods are treated. The programs do not allow for any dissenting opinion without retribution. They are forced to adopt the Party Line. In this country that is considered a great evil; period.
We have some basic rights in the USA. One is freedom of speech (the right to voice dissenting opinions without fear of retribution). Another is that our lives, liberty, and property cannot be denied us without due process of law. The young people in these programs are being denied both of these basic rights and the only reason the programs can do this is because of the age of the victims. Those that promote these programs are openly advocating that it is okay that young people are denied these basic freedoms.
No one has the right to forcibly strip search someone, steal their property, and force them into isolation and silence just because they disagree with their views or behavior. Not even that young person's parents. Not without due process of law. Without due process, these acts are abusive and unethical by the general standards of our society. Program supporters don't get this.
Now comes the great hypocrisy. Young people are denied these legal rights with the intention of protecting them. It is accepted by society that young people are not always in control and therefore not always responsible for their actions. We should not criminalize juvenile behavior. Therefore, we remove minors from the adult legal system so that parents can parent and, if necessary, the juvenile justice system can intervene to protect or rehabilitate. The philosophy states that incarceration should be a last resort, in the least restrictive form possible, and for the shortest possible time. Programs use this 'protection' to do just the opposite. They hold young people completely responsible for their actions, they incarcerate at any opportunity to do so (show me one young person a program has ever turned away because their behavior was not bad enough), and they have a vested (monetary) interest in the most lengthy incarceration they can get away with.
The icing on the cake. Placing a young person in an isolated environment in which these apparent sadists and potential pedophiles take complete control over that young person's life, without allowing them any safety measures at all (free communication, oversight), is simply irresponsible and asking for abuse to occur. The sadists convince the parents that the 'troubled teen' is lying and are able to do whatever they want. How parents can agree to this is incomprehensible. It defies common sense. And yet, they do.
Only in America can you create a successful business model based on abusing children. Simply horrifying.
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Oops! Forgot to sign in. The post on dissent is mine.
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Well, can you tell me how skipping school, self mutilation,breaking the law(stealing)lack of respect for family and self all are given rights? I am a believer that the next generation will do better,more than the last, but you have to perform in society,do what is 'normal' like get up, bathe go to school and love yourself.
Those things were missing in my 15 year old..how could he be a leader in a 'dissent' if he was desenting from life?
If I had not put him in Cross Creek, my fear was he would be in jail or the mourge,,,,,,and that is not program speak.
I am not sure about working the program till graduation but I know it was necessary to save him from himself at that time.
A hopeful Mom
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Have you tried therapy at the hands of a professional. Someone educated enough to psychologically work with your child.
The wwasp facilities do not provide any professional mental assistance (ie psychologist) unless specifically requested and paid for by the parent.
Wwasp does not have ANY effective drug treatment in place whatsoever. There is no 12 step program, NOTHING. Incarcerating a child at a compound will keep them of drugs while they are there. However once they return home and the fear of being sent back wears off, they are likely to relapse. The addiction was never treated and since there are NO qualified mental health professionals at these facilities whatsoever the majority of the children who are acting out because of being emotionally disturbed, never get any real help at all. They are simply warehoused. Yes they are off the streets. Just waiting until the day they get out and can relapse.
I say this as someone who went through the program, did the parent child seminars and everything. The majority of the boys in my parent child seminars , the ones I was in the program with, relapsed. They relapsed HARD. Some lasted 3 weeks some a couple of months some even 6 months to a year. A good portion of those who relapsed even moved on to heavier drugs and one boy from Dallas that I was there with had overdosed on heroin in less than a year after having graduated the wwasp program. He was in the program for two years.
Wwasp is lying about the statistics unless they are doing the success survey the immediate following day after the boys are released from the progeram and have'nt had a chance to relapse yet.
Actually I don't think wwasp has had a survey done. I'm talking about an independent survey company to interview groups of graduates of the parent child seminars one year after the program. Maybe to study the long term effects they should do a five year study as well. I know why they have'nt though, being in the program it would always make it back to us how our friends that had gone home were doing. Sadly often times they were doing worse than they were before the program.
You will have to take wwasp's word that their success rate it so high. And that their methods which they designed are better than what psychologists with degrees can do for your child.
Here is something to chew on. Why is the tuition so expensive when the cost of renting the facility is nearly free after dividing it amongst all the students. They buy the food in bulk which is cheap divided amongst all the students. And then their abundance of untrained, unqualified , minimum wage staff ( who are working there with no background check just a drug screening test which many of the teens can tell you how to beat.) Mix that with the fact that the upper level students are acting as non-paid staff. The costs of running these places is relatively low and they are extremely profitable. If they really wanted to help kids they could easily cut their tuitions in half and still turn a LARGE profit. But that's just it, it's not about helping the kids, it's about warehousing the child and seeing how long they can keep the parent hooked so they can milk them.
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If I had not put him in Cross Creek, my fear was he would be in jail or the mourge,,,,,,and that is not program speak.
Yes, that most certainly is program speak. If you want you son to develop self-confidence, respect toward authority and himself, etc., why did you put him in an abusive environment that teaches the exact opposite? Most former prisoners of WWASPS come out of the program behaving worse, not better (yes, graduates included)-- and they have a whole new line of psychological issues to deal with as a result of their treatment and the cultic, abusive nature of the program. If you are afraid for your son's life, putting him through WWASPS is a great way to make sure he lands in even bigger trouble once he's back in the free world.
You are paying a program to hurt, abuse, terrorise, and indoctrinate your child. No matter how much you try to deny it, that is the reality. Way to go, "mom".
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I'm sure that she is legitamately worried about her son. If he really needs to be intervened with though; a wwasp facility is not the place"in my experience" as I've been to two of them. The program is often given credit for "changing" children enrolled. I think that oftentimes they are taking credit for simply warehousing the teen until they grow out of the self-destructive phase they are in. The majority of wwasp students fail upon return. I know this because I've talked to many. Some do do well probably because they just grew out of their old behavior patterns and realized they wanted more out of life. I am successful but I do not credit wwasp with that. I credit myself. WWASP is a cult they try to break you down and then make you conform to their doctrine. Many people become so institutionalized while under their care that that are barely able to function in the real world afterwards. Some go running back and apply as staff to the program because they are scared to face the world and fear living out of the program eviroment. I wanted to at first and was even offered a job but eventually I found my own way. They have no effective treatment plan for drugs or severely disturbed children. They are a for profit warehouse. [ This Message was edited by: Leaga on 2005-11-30 09:07 ]
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We did do many Doctor visits here prior to sending him . THe area Physch told us he needed to go! We followed the Doctors advice. THere were multipe meds he was on, a diagnosis of Bipolar, which I question.......now I want to bring him home.
I think there is a fine line between right and wrong here. I am walking that line
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Why don't you err on the side of caution and bring him home? Get a second opinion from another doctor.
There are options for drug and mental health rehabilitation in every state. Otherwise we'd just shoot everyone or send them to a secluded island on the first offense. Treatment doesn't have to happen in a locked facility out of your own state.
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I think there is a fine line between right and wrong here. I am walking that line "
Bring 'em home! The only thing that is truly, horrificly wrong is that kids are being locked away in these facilities. And please, I tell you from personal experience, the pain and trauma might not show through for many years, but when it does, pray your child has the strength to move on.
As an adult who was in a WWASPS program myself, I speak from my own experience. Even in the unlikely event your child has been protected from physical abuse by the facility, and can't get access to drugs or alcohol while locked up, things come crashing down later.
Part of the perceived success of these programs is that survivors often don't talk about their experiences, but live in mental torment silently, while the family goes for decades believing they provided help! For "program parent" or family, I can imagine coming to the realization that they spent $30,000 to $100,000 to abuse and possibly permanently damage the child has to be traumatic as well. That's why there is so much denial.
The bottom line is that all WWASPS seminars are psychologically and emotionally abusive. A lack of physical brutality from the staff only makes the experience more bearable - not more theraputic or any less damaging.
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Thank you for responding without accusing me of abandoning my child. At the time we did what we thought was best. He is in Discovery as we speak, next week we do PC1 and I am planning on driving away with him. Wish me luck to get the hubby onboard.
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On 2005-11-30 07:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well, can you tell me how skipping school, self mutilation,breaking the law(stealing)lack of respect for family and self all are given rights? I am a believer that the next generation will do better,more than the last, but you have to perform in society,do what is 'normal' like get up, bathe go to school and love yourself.
Those things were missing in my 15 year old..how could he be a leader in a 'dissent' if he was desenting from life?
If I had not put him in Cross Creek, my fear was he would be in jail or the mourge,,,,,,and that is not program speak.
I am not sure about working the program till graduation but I know it was necessary to save him from himself at that time.
A hopeful Mom"
Distorting my words or saying I wrote something I did not is not a valid argument to my point. No where did I condone your son's behavior. But I might have. Who says you have to respect your family. My family sucks. I don't respect them. They would have to earn that. Quite frankly, perhaps if you had earned your son's respect, he would not be acting this way. Just a thought.
My post was never meant to say and did not say that young people should not be given assistance when needed. It is the type of assistance that I object to. Your son still has a right to speak his mind freely and to believe in whatever religion, political system, or value system he chooses. Even if he really must be incarcerated to protect himself or others from harm, he does not give up these rights. He still has a right to be involved in choices concerning his treatment even in his confinement.
What if Cross Creek wanted to administer ECT? Would that be okay with you? Shouldn't both of you have a say in that? How about a lobotomy? That would mellow him out, but would it be right and moral to do this to him? The ends doesn't justify the means. Torment, whether physical or emotional is not therapy and not a valid treatment option.
To force your son to be silent, avoid eye contact, not look at a girl at all, not interact with other kids, and not be able to communicate with you is wrong. There is absolutely NO therapeutic value in treating him like that.
Your son should be allowed to stand up to you and the rest of the seminar and say, "This is all bullshit and I'm going back to my room." He should be allowed to do that without any fear of retribution or punishment. It is HIS treatment, not yours. If he wants traditional psychotherapy instead, give it to him. If he wants to read self help books or seek answers in religion or philosophy, let him. He owns his own thoughts and ideas, not you, not Cross Creek, not the Government. In his spare time, he should be allowed to read any goddamn thing he wants. And, he has a right to have some spare time and some fun in his life.
If he wants to stab someone or destroy someone else's property, that is another story. Then he should be stopped. That is what the police are for. As for skipping school, you can force him to attend and to a certain extent force him to learn something, but it is wrong to assume he must (or even can) be forced to like it. He should not be forced to act like he likes it either.
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On 2005-11-30 21:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thank you for responding without accusing me of abandoning my child. At the time we did what we thought was best. He is in Discovery as we speak, next week we do PC1 and I am planning on driving away with him. Wish me luck to get the hubby onboard."
I am thrilled to hear you are taking your son home. With the holidays fast approaching, he will be excited to go home, and spend it you. There is something about the holidays that brings a family closer together. All the traditions, the familiar smells. It's a perfect time to have that heart to heart conversation. These are all the things that you can provide as parents, that WWASPS cannot. Make sure and go out of your way to include him. I only say this because he might be a little upset at first about you temporarily disowning him. Everybody makes mistakes. What matters is that you see the light! :smile:
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Ah, Discovery. After all these years, I still remember how f'd up that was. It was also what made me believe the place was a giant scam. I think the next seminar was Focus or something... been too long. It does gets easier to get through, if only because you have a good idea of what they want to see from you.
I'm not sure how your child will take these seminars emotionally, and it will be a very vulnerable time for him when he arrives home. Be sure to give him plenty of love and support. Things might not go well right away. Part of the problem will be that you likely have never experienced anything similar to what he's been through. It'll be difficult to relate to your child's experiences. However, I do think he'll be grateful for the rescue, and he'll appreciate what he has with you and your love very much. That's your advantage.
Also keep in mind that not every kid will have a terrible experience, or they might not consider the program abusive until much later in life. Look for emotional and behavior changes, and keep a close watch on your sons behavior, but do so without being the gestapo. Get close to him by being a real friend.
Trust is often difficult to establish after leaving these programs, and I think you are making the right choice by removing him before too much emotional damage is done. The only thing that I might suggest is that you work to find a good family therapist that everyone is willing to work with. Was he "abducted" when he was sent to the program? If so, it might be harder.
Lots of people who post here went through the program themselves or are parents that have had children in programs and took them out or had them graduate and now see the programs negatively, and we can all suggest things that did work well.
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On 2005-11-30 21:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thank you for responding without accusing me of abandoning my child. At the time we did what we thought was best. He is in Discovery as we speak, next week we do PC1 and I am planning on driving away with him. Wish me luck to get the hubby onboard."
The first thing they will tell you in PC1 is not to withdraw your child early ... even before you bring it up. They will say that if you pull them at this point they will relapse and you will have to start all over again. They really give you the hard sell.
I think a lot of parents tend to be wavering at this point. You have been warned.
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On 2005-11-30 21:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thank you for responding without accusing me of abandoning my child. At the time we did what we thought was best. He is in Discovery as we speak, next week we do PC1 and I am planning on driving away with him. Wish me luck to get the hubby onboard."
You go straight from Discovery to PC1? Wow things have changed. Before we'd have to get through Focus, then Accountability... some other one I can't remember and then maybe you'd get to PC1. I hope you drive away and never look back, Discovery is bad enough, but it gets ten times worse.
-Someone who's been there
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Will take most of these posts to heart. My son and I have always spoken, I am not the hammer in the family. Sorry that one anon here thinks kids can do or say whatever they want..that is not what living in a family is about. Want to go aganist me and the family values, when you are 18 and pay the bills so be it.
I have pushed hard for the pci. They have changed the interval between seminars.to 2 months. he opted out of Orientation then discovery once, so we are at 7 months..I am at my end of the WWasp train.
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On 2005-11-29 23:10:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"Oops! Forgot to sign in. The post on dissent is mine."
QUOTE: I am old enough to remember the youth movement of the late 1960s and early 1970s. Civil Rights, Womens' Rights, Gay Rights, and an end to a war came about because young people rebelled against the established adult order. Many positive changes were made; not the least of which is the greater transparency that the government and large corporations and other organizations must now operate under. The slogans included "Question Authority."
The point here is the combination of young people and dissent. What makes all these programs wrong is the simple fact that they allow no dissent. In this way, they are no different than Soviet or Communist China style re-education camps. END QUOTE
Your point is noble, but it doesn?t work because you start with the assumption that dissent is not allowed. The whole point of the program is to show the kids how to stand up for things they know are wrong. For example, girls who have been pressured or forced into sexual situations learn to communicate in an assertive but respectful way, looking out for their own needs rather then the needs of their ?friends??usually predators and drug dealers. Kids at most programs can dissent, as long as they do so with respect toward themselves and those they?re addressing. At some schools, they even have the opportunity to suggest changes and improvements to the overall program.
QUOTE: What is important is how those young people who disagree with the program and its methods are treated. The programs do not allow for any dissenting opinion without retribution. They are forced to adopt the Party Line. In this country that is considered a great evil; period. END QUOTE
As above . . .
QUOTE: No one has the right to forcibly strip search someone, steal their property, and force them into isolation and silence just because they disagree with their views or behavior. Not even that young person's parents. Not without due process of law. Without due process, these acts are abusive and unethical by the general standards of our society. Program supporters don't get this.END QUOTE
Don?t get this? Have you read the policies of any of these schools? I have worked at several, and there was NEVER a strip search. That becomes a real pain, because kids can try to get away with stuff, but no one ever sees these kids without clothing except their doctor and nurse who give them a physical. It's a matter of respect and safety.
Their property goes home, except for what they need. And there is no such thing as ?isolation.? Silence? Yes, at certain times such as in the classroom. Guess that makes public schools evil, too?
QUOTE: The icing on the cake. Placing a young person in an isolated environment in which these apparent sadists and potential pedophiles take complete control over that young person's life, without allowing them any safety measures at all (free communication, oversight), is simply irresponsible and asking for abuse to occur.END QUOTE
How can one be an ?apparent sadist?? What is a ?potential pedophile?? Those are very weighty terms, very accusatorial, and utterly unfounded. And the safety measures are extensive. Again, think about actually reading the policies of these schools. Go see for yourself how unrealistic your Oliver Twist angle is.
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I would jump off the train while you still can.
IMO it is not necessary to be in the program more than a minute to make an imprssion on a kid.
7 months damage may have been done.
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On 2005-11-30 08:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Have you tried therapy at the hands of a professional. Someone educated enough to psychologically work with your child.
The wwasp facilities do not provide any professional mental assistance (ie psychologist) unless specifically requested and paid for by the parent.
Wwasp does not have ANY effective drug treatment in place whatsoever. There is no 12 step program, NOTHING. Incarcerating a child at a compound will keep them of drugs while they are there. However once they return home and the fear of being sent back wears off, they are likely to relapse. The addiction was never treated and since there are NO qualified mental health professionals at these facilities whatsoever the majority of the children who are acting out because of being emotionally disturbed, never get any real help at all. They are simply warehoused. Yes they are off the streets. Just waiting until the day they get out and can relapse.
I say this as someone who went through the program, did the parent child seminars and everything. The majority of the boys in my parent child seminars , the ones I was in the program with, relapsed. They relapsed HARD. Some lasted 3 weeks some a couple of months some even 6 months to a year. A good portion of those who relapsed even moved on to heavier drugs and one boy from Dallas that I was there with had overdosed on heroin in less than a year after having graduated the wwasp program. He was in the program for two years.
Wwasp is lying about the statistics unless they are doing the success survey the immediate following day after the boys are released from the progeram and have'nt had a chance to relapse yet.
Actually I don't think wwasp has had a survey done. I'm talking about an independent survey company to interview groups of graduates of the parent child seminars one year after the program. Maybe to study the long term effects they should do a five year study as well. I know why they have'nt though, being in the program it would always make it back to us how our friends that had gone home were doing. Sadly often times they were doing worse than they were before the program.
You will have to take wwasp's word that their success rate it so high. And that their methods which they designed are better than what psychologists with degrees can do for your child.
Here is something to chew on. Why is the tuition so expensive when the cost of renting the facility is nearly free after dividing it amongst all the students. They buy the food in bulk which is cheap divided amongst all the students. And then their abundance of untrained, unqualified , minimum wage staff ( who are working there with no background check just a drug screening test which many of the teens can tell you how to beat.) Mix that with the fact that the upper level students are acting as non-paid staff. The costs of running these places is relatively low and they are extremely profitable. If they really wanted to help kids they could easily cut their tuitions in half and still turn a LARGE profit. But that's just it, it's not about helping the kids, it's about warehousing the child and seeing how long they can keep the parent hooked so they can milk them."
Well, I only ghave experience with one WWASPS school, so here goes:
Spring Creek currently has 9 full time therapists, including one that all students see within two days of arriving.
Surveys are done at 1, 3, 6, and 12-month intervals. However, a long-term survey is a very good idea, and is currently being developed. It makes sense to demonstrate how effective the program is, especially long-term.
You obviously don't know much about land values, but other costs include paying the many professionals,including 24 certified teachers. In addition, there is the cost of the extensive background checks--at two levels-- and ongoing training every week, including CPR, First Aid, Mandt training, communications, and policy and procedure. The school is fully accredited and credits are accepted all over the country--including at some of the finest universities. Yet Spring Creek's tuition remains low in comparison to most programs around the country.
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I never saw any therapist or received any counseling. I don't know anyone else that did. There was only one nurse per beach for medical care, if I remember correctly. I was never surveyed at any point during or after the program. Maybe they only survey "graduates" or a select few?
Maybe the WWASPS programs in the USA are better than their overseas programs in the far corners of the world, but I would still have major concerns about their methods and their effectiveness.
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Cross creek has a therapist for every group. THey have'group therapy' every day and once a week session alone with him. He is also involved in other parts of my son's days. I have respect for HIM and the work he is doing.
I have a problem with the whole PROGRAM thing and what is required for graduation. I post on the BBS, and see these parents that are so totally reliant on the program, leaving kids there 23 months? WHat is that? I have faith in myself and my family that we can do this with some assistance, and yes some of the things in Discovery were awesome for me.
I am willing to leave my husband over this..that is how strongly I feel, I have 2 younger kids here that I need to think about also. TIme to 'step left' my decision is made, away from the program.
thank you all for the feedback(LOL)
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THey have'group therapy' every day and once a week session alone with him. He is also involved in other parts of my son's days. I have respect for HIM and the work he is doing.
I have a problem with the whole PROGRAM thing and what is required for graduation. [snip] I am willing to leave my husband over this..that is how strongly I feel, I have 2 younger kids here that I need to think about also. TIme to 'step left' my decision is made, away from the program.
I hope all goes well for you! I'm sure you can find an excellent therapist outside of the program, too. I just hope the "group therapy" he's getting isn't like the rest of the programs so-called therapy.
Maybe these programs are getting better as the years go by, but that can't excuse the misrepresentation of their services, even with the absense of abuse.
Do what you can to keep the family together. I've seen and heard of too many families that have been split up into pro-program and anti-program cliques!
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On 2005-12-01 11:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Cross creek has a therapist for every group. THey have'group therapy' every day and once a week session alone with him. He is also involved in other parts of my son's days. I have respect for HIM and the work he is doing.
I have a problem with the whole PROGRAM thing and what is required for graduation. I post on the BBS, and see these parents that are so totally reliant on the program, leaving kids there 23 months? WHat is that? I have faith in myself and my family that we can do this with some assistance, and yes some of the things in Discovery were awesome for me.
I am willing to leave my husband over this..that is how strongly I feel, I have 2 younger kids here that I need to think about also. TIme to 'step left' my decision is made, away from the program.
thank you all for the feedback(LOL)"
If your husband is not supportive in your decision, then I hope you do leave him. My father was not strong enough to leave my step-mother over it. He came sooooo close. My first therapist at Heritage School who went by the name J.P. (John Paul) told my dad straight up he should leave her. In the end he wimped out. She wore the pants that's for sure. In fact it was her that was so insistent to have me sent away at the age of 12. She was a real bitch. My parents recorded all their conversations with the therapist, and kept them in the home safe. Well, somehow a couple of these microtapes ended up in my bedroom drawer along with a mini tape recorder to listen to them with, and so on one of my visits I did, that turned out to be the last visit by the way! Oh that was painful, I heard everything. It was obvious to me during the phone conversations with my therapist, that while they were telling them how great I was doing, and I was........that my step-mom would say well what about this, or what about that. She enjoyed having all my Dad's attention. After my only brothers death (he was 4 years older then me) only 6 months after getting there I am positive she was thinking 1 down 1 to go. Why else would I be stuck in places for almost 4 1/2 years? Then at the age of 16 I was told no matter what I did, I was going to remain locked up until I was 18. I couldn't take another 1 1/2 years, so I ran away. I was the first girl from Cross Creek Manor who ran away, and stayed away. A little update on my family........the witch is dead. She died 6 years ago. She died of ovarian cancer. She had a long death (1 year), nobody let me in on the little secret she was dying. Infact, my 2 half brothers who are in there 50's (I am 32) could have told me, but they were told not to. When they decided to tell me, which was 5 months after she passed, I'll never forget the phone conversation! It went something like, shut up, you're kidding, no really, are you just fucking with me, come on stop playing! Oh, you are serious?!! Where is she buried, so I can do a little dance? Oh darn she's been cremated?!! Sorry, that's how I felt. She destroyed our family. We are all back on the mends, and have been for a while. My family (and even my father) see's the goodness that came out of the womans death.
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CCM girl, that's really sad, but I guess it's common after reading all these threads.
These programs are really capable of breaking up a family. I've probably missed some funerals myself.
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On 2005-12-01 13:01:00, trnsz wrote:
"CCM girl, that's really sad, but I guess it's common after reading all these threads.
These programs are really capable of breaking up a family. I've probably missed some funerals myself.
"
I think you may have misunderstood me? I was allowed at my brothers funeral. In fact it is the first funeral I had ever been to, and the only time I have ever touched a dead person. When I leaned in his coffin to say goodbye, I touched his arm. I will never forget how cold it was :cry:. Now, my step-mom on the otherhand I did miss her service. Had I found out, I would've attempted to go. There was security there to keep unwanted people out. I'm pretty sure I wasn't on the guest list. Her own parents, and her only sister were not on the list either.
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Now, my step-mom on the otherhand I did miss her service. Had I found out, I would've attempted to go.
Yeah, that's what I was referring to, that was sad.
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On 2005-12-01 07:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-11-29 23:10:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"Oops! Forgot to sign in. The post on dissent is mine."
QUOTE: I am old enough to remember the youth movement of the late 1960s and early 1970s. Civil Rights, Womens' Rights, Gay Rights, and an end to a war came about because young people rebelled against the established adult order. Many positive changes were made; not the least of which is the greater transparency that the government and large corporations and other organizations must now operate under. The slogans included "Question Authority."
The point here is the combination of young people and dissent. What makes all these programs wrong is the simple fact that they allow no dissent. In this way, they are no different than Soviet or Communist China style re-education camps. END QUOTE
Your point is noble, but it doesn?t work because you start with the assumption that dissent is not allowed. The whole point of the program is to show the kids how to stand up for things they know are wrong. For example, girls who have been pressured or forced into sexual situations learn to communicate in an assertive but respectful way, looking out for their own needs rather then the needs of their ?friends??usually predators and drug dealers. Kids at most programs can dissent, as long as they do so with respect toward themselves and those they?re addressing. At some schools, they even have the opportunity to suggest changes and improvements to the overall program.
QUOTE: What is important is how those young people who disagree with the program and its methods are treated. The programs do not allow for any dissenting opinion without retribution. They are forced to adopt the Party Line. In this country that is considered a great evil; period. END QUOTE
As above . . .
QUOTE: No one has the right to forcibly strip search someone, steal their property, and force them into isolation and silence just because they disagree with their views or behavior. Not even that young person's parents. Not without due process of law. Without due process, these acts are abusive and unethical by the general standards of our society. Program supporters don't get this.END QUOTE
Don?t get this? Have you read the policies of any of these schools? I have worked at several, and there was NEVER a strip search. That becomes a real pain, because kids can try to get away with stuff, but no one ever sees these kids without clothing except their doctor and nurse who give them a physical. It's a matter of respect and safety.
Their property goes home, except for what they need. And there is no such thing as ?isolation.? Silence? Yes, at certain times such as in the classroom. Guess that makes public schools evil, too?
QUOTE: The icing on the cake. Placing a young person in an isolated environment in which these apparent sadists and potential pedophiles take complete control over that young person's life, without allowing them any safety measures at all (free communication, oversight), is simply irresponsible and asking for abuse to occur.END QUOTE
How can one be an ?apparent sadist?? What is a ?potential pedophile?? Those are very weighty terms, very accusatorial, and utterly unfounded. And the safety measures are extensive. Again, think about actually reading the policies of these schools. Go see for yourself how unrealistic your Oliver Twist angle is.
"
Your downplaying. Jay Kay stated in an interview that one girl was kept in isolation (OP) for 18 months at Tranquility Bay. You say there is no isolation.
Silence in class? How about for months on end. It can take months to reach level two and be allowed to speak.
Many students have stated they were punished (I refuse to the newspeak 'consequenced') for making statments that questioned the program.
The written policies mean little when they change the meaning of words:
punishment becomes 'consequences'
isolation becomes 'observation placement'
regimentation becomes 'structure'
torture becomes 'restraint'
torment becomes 'remove them from their comfort zone'
preventing normal social interaction becomes 'removing negative influences'
Who are you/they kidding? It is so ridiculously transparent that it amazes me that people can buy into it.
As for 'apparent sadist' or 'potential pedophile,' would you let your child sleep with Michael Jackson? I wouldn't. He was not found guilty. There were no witnesses, so it was his word against the plaintiff's.
Exactly what extensive safety measures are in place?
You sound like George Bush when he says, "We don't torture."
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On 2005-12-01 08:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-11-30 08:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Have you tried therapy at the hands of a professional. Someone educated enough to psychologically work with your child.
The wwasp facilities do not provide any professional mental assistance (ie psychologist) unless specifically requested and paid for by the parent.
Wwasp does not have ANY effective drug treatment in place whatsoever. There is no 12 step program, NOTHING. Incarcerating a child at a compound will keep them of drugs while they are there. However once they return home and the fear of being sent back wears off, they are likely to relapse. The addiction was never treated and since there are NO qualified mental health professionals at these facilities whatsoever the majority of the children who are acting out because of being emotionally disturbed, never get any real help at all. They are simply warehoused. Yes they are off the streets. Just waiting until the day they get out and can relapse.
I say this as someone who went through the program, did the parent child seminars and everything. The majority of the boys in my parent child seminars , the ones I was in the program with, relapsed. They relapsed HARD. Some lasted 3 weeks some a couple of months some even 6 months to a year. A good portion of those who relapsed even moved on to heavier drugs and one boy from Dallas that I was there with had overdosed on heroin in less than a year after having graduated the wwasp program. He was in the program for two years.
Wwasp is lying about the statistics unless they are doing the success survey the immediate following day after the boys are released from the progeram and have'nt had a chance to relapse yet.
Actually I don't think wwasp has had a survey done. I'm talking about an independent survey company to interview groups of graduates of the parent child seminars one year after the program. Maybe to study the long term effects they should do a five year study as well. I know why they have'nt though, being in the program it would always make it back to us how our friends that had gone home were doing. Sadly often times they were doing worse than they were before the program.
You will have to take wwasp's word that their success rate it so high. And that their methods which they designed are better than what psychologists with degrees can do for your child.
Here is something to chew on. Why is the tuition so expensive when the cost of renting the facility is nearly free after dividing it amongst all the students. They buy the food in bulk which is cheap divided amongst all the students. And then their abundance of untrained, unqualified , minimum wage staff ( who are working there with no background check just a drug screening test which many of the teens can tell you how to beat.) Mix that with the fact that the upper level students are acting as non-paid staff. The costs of running these places is relatively low and they are extremely profitable. If they really wanted to help kids they could easily cut their tuitions in half and still turn a LARGE profit. But that's just it, it's not about helping the kids, it's about warehousing the child and seeing how long they can keep the parent hooked so they can milk them."
Well, I only ghave experience with one WWASPS school, so here goes:
Spring Creek currently has 9 full time therapists, including one that all students see within two days of arriving.
Surveys are done at 1, 3, 6, and 12-month intervals. However, a long-term survey is a very good idea, and is currently being developed. It makes sense to demonstrate how effective the program is, especially long-term.
You obviously don't know much about land values, but other costs include paying the many professionals,including 24 certified teachers. In addition, there is the cost of the extensive background checks--at two levels-- and ongoing training every week, including CPR, First Aid, Mandt training, communications, and policy and procedure. The school is fully accredited and credits are accepted all over the country--including at some of the finest universities. Yet Spring Creek's tuition remains low in comparison to most programs around the country.
"
How about they survey the group I was there with? Well corey is dead George O.Ded on heroin Chaffins golden boy Mark relapsed and ran away. Eddie went back and worked there but was fired and then went into harder things than before the program. One boy got busted with massive amounts of drugs. And all others I've talked to don't seem to be doing that well either. So go ahead and do your selective survey.
And that is quite a land portfolio than Cameron and Dan Peart have there but it is still just a pittance compared to the revenue collected in tuition.It is not that cheap, it still costs as much as an Ivy league education.Are we talking therapists or PSYCHOLOGISTS? The difference a degree vs. a do it at home course. If the teens are troubled enough to need drastic intervention then should'nt they get real help at the hands of a credential having professional.
The school in Montana was much nicer than the one in Samoa. In Samoa when I first got there, there was one set of High school curriculum and it was a photocopy of a photocopy quality. They made copies of those copies and then passed them out to the different beaches or compounds. The questions were like this (IE> The nile river is in Egpyt true or false)I think it had to have been from a special ed. high school. Even then though if you knew the right kids behind the scenes you could get answer keys. Sometimes the unskilled local teachers (how are they supposed to tutor you in english when they can hardly speak it?) would accept articles of name brand clothing in exchange for answer keys. One boy graduated high school for two starter basketball jerzeez.Then at the end after news crews started inquiring they got computers and real books all of a sudden. I'm not sure why Dace's eyes were so red all the time. Maybe he had CHRONIC eye problems. He was often hungry too if I remember correctly anyone at Casa notice that?
I attended spring creek and it wasn't that bad. Honestly compared to Samoa it was a Five Star Resort. I think Cameron and Chaffin really want to help kids. I would be surprised if they really did remove the heater from the hobbit but then again I wasn't there at that time. I do remember Cameron challenging a boy to jump into the pond to demonstrate his comittment to change. Then we threw Cameron in and half the facility jumped in as well.
It's too bad they don't believe in their own personal power and get out of bed with wwasp who has made millions abusing and warehousing teens.
I would say SCL is the least wwasp-like facility. Jamaica , Samoa and High impact are/were more along the lines of traditional wwasp schools. My beef is'nt with Spring Creek it is what they were allowed to do to us in Samoa.I had forgotten all about it and moved on with my life. I decided to look it up online and now they are acting like Samoa never even existed. All the abuse that took place they are trying to sweep it under the rug. I've heard similiar stories from those who attended Jamaica or other schools. WWASP is accountable for their actions, or does accountability only apply to the kids?
In Samoa it was called isolation for a long time because thats what it was. Then Brian and Duane got a company memo renaming it observation placement. The "Dungeon" then became the worksheet room. Changing the name to something more politically correct does'nt mean anything to me. It was still a place where they could handcuff, ductape, starve ,and beat you if it so pleased them and it did at times.
What I'm pushing for is more regulation in the industry. Institutions (both public and private) such as psychological hospitals and retirement homes are regulated and monitored to prevent abuse. WHY? Because there is a need. Abuse occurs and there needs to be regulation to counter and stop it.
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You posted honest, detailed revelations about the treatment you received at Paradise Cove. You say you were treated better at SCL, and I'm guessing that you were there as a higher level during the end of your stay, since this is common. Do you think it's possible that yes, you were treated better there because you were better behaved, and also yes, the claims of abuse there are true because they treat the lowest levels and ones who get into trouble much worse than the rest?
I know that at CCM I was fairly well behaved, so I didn't personally endure painful takedowns and unjust punishments as much as some of the others, but I saw them with my own eyes and believe those who were abused. B
y the way, Cameron was at CCM when I was and I do believe he cared, but even while he was on shift he couldn't be everywhere at once and the others were using physical interventions completely without reason.
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On 2005-12-02 17:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-01 08:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-11-30 08:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Have you tried therapy at the hands of a professional. Someone educated enough to psychologically work with your child.
The wwasp facilities do not provide any professional mental assistance (ie psychologist) unless specifically requested and paid for by the parent.
Wwasp does not have ANY effective drug treatment in place whatsoever. There is no 12 step program, NOTHING. Incarcerating a child at a compound will keep them of drugs while they are there. However once they return home and the fear of being sent back wears off, they are likely to relapse. The addiction was never treated and since there are NO qualified mental health professionals at these facilities whatsoever the majority of the children who are acting out because of being emotionally disturbed, never get any real help at all. They are simply warehoused. Yes they are off the streets. Just waiting until the day they get out and can relapse.
I say this as someone who went through the program, did the parent child seminars and everything. The majority of the boys in my parent child seminars , the ones I was in the program with, relapsed. They relapsed HARD. Some lasted 3 weeks some a couple of months some even 6 months to a year. A good portion of those who relapsed even moved on to heavier drugs and one boy from Dallas that I was there with had overdosed on heroin in less than a year after having graduated the wwasp program. He was in the program for two years.
Wwasp is lying about the statistics unless they are doing the success survey the immediate following day after the boys are released from the progeram and have'nt had a chance to relapse yet.
Actually I don't think wwasp has had a survey done. I'm talking about an independent survey company to interview groups of graduates of the parent child seminars one year after the program. Maybe to study the long term effects they should do a five year study as well. I know why they have'nt though, being in the program it would always make it back to us how our friends that had gone home were doing. Sadly often times they were doing worse than they were before the program.
You will have to take wwasp's word that their success rate it so high. And that their methods which they designed are better than what psychologists with degrees can do for your child.
Here is something to chew on. Why is the tuition so expensive when the cost of renting the facility is nearly free after dividing it amongst all the students. They buy the food in bulk which is cheap divided amongst all the students. And then their abundance of untrained, unqualified , minimum wage staff ( who are working there with no background check just a drug screening test which many of the teens can tell you how to beat.) Mix that with the fact that the upper level students are acting as non-paid staff. The costs of running these places is relatively low and they are extremely profitable. If they really wanted to help kids they could easily cut their tuitions in half and still turn a LARGE profit. But that's just it, it's not about helping the kids, it's about warehousing the child and seeing how long they can keep the parent hooked so they can milk them."
Well, I only ghave experience with one WWASPS school, so here goes:
Spring Creek currently has 9 full time therapists, including one that all students see within two days of arriving.
Surveys are done at 1, 3, 6, and 12-month intervals. However, a long-term survey is a very good idea, and is currently being developed. It makes sense to demonstrate how effective the program is, especially long-term.
You obviously don't know much about land values, but other costs include paying the many professionals,including 24 certified teachers. In addition, there is the cost of the extensive background checks--at two levels-- and ongoing training every week, including CPR, First Aid, Mandt training, communications, and policy and procedure. The school is fully accredited and credits are accepted all over the country--including at some of the finest universities. Yet Spring Creek's tuition remains low in comparison to most programs around the country.
"
How about they survey the group I was there with? Well corey is dead George O.Ded on heroin Chaffins golden boy Mark relapsed and ran away. Eddie went back and worked there but was fired and then went into harder things than before the program. One boy got busted with massive amounts of drugs. And all others I've talked to don't seem to be doing that well either. So go ahead and do your selective survey.
And that is quite a land portfolio than Cameron and Dan Peart have there but it is still just a pittance compared to the revenue collected in tuition.It is not that cheap, it still costs as much as an Ivy league education.Are we talking therapists or PSYCHOLOGISTS? The difference a degree vs. a do it at home course. If the teens are troubled enough to need drastic intervention then should'nt they get real help at the hands of a credential having professional.
The school in Montana was much nicer than the one in Samoa. In Samoa when I first got there, there was one set of High school curriculum and it was a photocopy of a photocopy quality. They made copies of those copies and then passed them out to the different beaches or compounds. The questions were like this (IE> The nile river is in Egpyt true or false)I think it had to have been from a special ed. high school. Even then though if you knew the right kids behind the scenes you could get answer keys. Sometimes the unskilled local teachers (how are they supposed to tutor you in english when they can hardly speak it?) would accept articles of name brand clothing in exchange for answer keys. One boy graduated high school for two starter basketball jerzeez.Then at the end after news crews started inquiring they got computers and real books all of a sudden. I'm not sure why Dace's eyes were so red all the time. Maybe he had CHRONIC eye problems. He was often hungry too if I remember correctly anyone at Casa notice that?
I attended spring creek and it wasn't that bad. Honestly compared to Samoa it was a Five Star Resort. I think Cameron and Chaffin really want to help kids. I would be surprised if they really did remove the heater from the hobbit but then again I wasn't there at that time. I do remember Cameron challenging a boy to jump into the pond to demonstrate his comittment to change. Then we threw Cameron in and half the facility jumped in as well.
It's too bad they don't believe in their own personal power and get out of bed with wwasp who has made millions abusing and warehousing teens.
I would say SCL is the least wwasp-like facility. Jamaica , Samoa and High impact are/were more along the lines of traditional wwasp schools. My beef is'nt with Spring Creek it is what they were allowed to do to us in Samoa.I had forgotten all about it and moved on with my life. I decided to look it up online and now they are acting like Samoa never even existed. All the abuse that took place they are trying to sweep it under the rug. I've heard similiar stories from those who attended Jamaica or other schools. WWASP is accountable for their actions, or does accountability only apply to the kids?
In Samoa it was called isolation for a long time because thats what it was. Then Brian and Duane got a company memo renaming it observation placement. The "Dungeon" then became the worksheet room. Changing the name to something more politically correct does'nt mean anything to me. It was still a place where they could handcuff, ductape, starve ,and beat you if it so pleased them and it did at times.
What I'm pushing for is more regulation in the industry. Institutions (both public and private) such as psychological hospitals and retirement homes are regulated and monitored to prevent abuse. WHY? Because there is a need. Abuse occurs and there needs to be regulation to counter and stop it. "
The therapists at SCL are all licensed and certified. Psychologists seldom do this sort of clinical work, although there are two at SCL. You usually become a therapist by getting a masters in counseling or social work.
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The therapists at SCL are all licensed and certified. Psychologists seldom do this sort of clinical work, although there are two at SCL. You usually become a therapist by getting a masters in counseling or social work. "
[/quote]
That's great SCL is miles ahead of any other wwasp facility. But if the kids are soooo disturbed and troubled that they need drastic intervention AND small fortunes are being spent on it.... then why not have the best and that would be psychologists. But back to my previous point SCL is not even typical of other wwasp facilities. I'm sure that there are several schools of this kind that are good for troubled teens. WHO is regulating the ones that are not? NOONE. There is nothing legislative to stop Samoa from happening again. There is nothing to stop high impact from happening again. And those are just wwasp programs. There's many other similiarly abusive "camps or school" that are independently owned and they can pop up anywhere at anytime do whatever they want and get away sometimes with murder.
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The therapists at SCL are all licensed and certified. Psychologists seldom do this sort of clinical work, although there are two at SCL. You usually become a therapist by getting a masters in counseling or social work.
The therapist at SCL are an optional add on to the program. Your parents are given the option of paying extra for 'therapy' which is 30 mins long once a week. Only about two or three out of our twenty kid family went to a 'therapist'. They work with and for WWASP, and do not abide by confidentially agreements, they tell WWASP everything you tell them which is then used to manipulate you in seminars, etc. This is not therapy, it simply leaves you open to more emotional humiliation and abuse!
On a less politically correct note, these 'therapists' (note: there were NO psychologists there in 2000 when I was at SCL, and we never even saw a psychiatrist to deal with our many meds, they best they got was a nurse practioner) were hicksk from small-town Montana, who were frankly not too insightful when it came to therapy. Nothing at SCL, or any WWASP program is helpful! It is only harmful.
Whoever wrote this quote above is simply spouting the program's marketing shit... which is ALL LIES. This is why you can't believe these program people, they don't know the truth. You can't argue with people who believe a lie. Here at fornits most posts spent responding to them is simply correcting their blatant lies which shows us the don't know what they are talking about.
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I'd like to add,the "therapist" at SCL also support SCL staff in sending kids to Tranquility Bay. Then deny the fact that they did so.
The written docs I received from SCL therapist was nothing short of a very bad joke.The incompetence was blatant.I was billed for services my child never received. MORE FRAUD.
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On 2005-12-05 19:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The therapists at SCL are all licensed and certified. Psychologists seldom do this sort of clinical work, although there are two at SCL. You usually become a therapist by getting a masters in counseling or social work.
The therapist at SCL are an optional add on to the program. Your parents are given the option of paying extra for 'therapy' which is 30 mins long once a week. Only about two or three out of our twenty kid family went to a 'therapist'. They work with and for WWASP, and do not abide by confidentially agreements, they tell WWASP everything you tell them which is then used to manipulate you in seminars, etc. This is not therapy, it simply leaves you open to more emotional humiliation and abuse!
On a less politically correct note, these 'therapists' (note: there were NO psychologists there in 2000 when I was at SCL, and we never even saw a psychiatrist to deal with our many meds, they best they got was a nurse practioner) were hicksk from small-town Montana, who were frankly not too insightful when it came to therapy. Nothing at SCL, or any WWASP program is helpful! It is only harmful.
Whoever wrote this quote above is simply spouting the program's marketing shit... which is ALL LIES. This is why you can't believe these program people, they don't know the truth. You can't argue with people who believe a lie. Here at fornits most posts spent responding to them is simply correcting their blatant lies which shows us the don't know what they are talking about. "
All the claims can be proven or disproven by checking the state certification of the therapists.
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All the claims can be proven or disproven by checking the state certification of the therapists.
What the fuck are you talking about? Claims of what? Who cares if they are/aren't certified, they work with and for WWASP's interests. This is completely counterproductive, as the teen will shutdown once they realize they cannot be honest with the therapist. It's not a matter of whether the state has certified these HICKS that call themselves therapists, it's about whether or not it's effective treatment. It most certainly IS NOT. Just another way for WWASP to make more money, THAT you can take to the bank.
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On 2005-05-19 18:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Mother Responds to Ivy Ridge Stories
Malaica Valiente
Davie, Fl
http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/let ... 050518.htm (http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/lettertoeditor/valiente_malaica050518.htm)
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"
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To the brother of the AIR girl. i am not necessarily of the school that believes the all families who send their kids away are abusive or unloving either, I think some want the best for the kid. But the amount of complaints are pretty numerous and severe for a programme that saves lives and rebuilds families!
Also i dont know if you aware of just how difficult it is to not speak for extended periods of time! Once when i was a student i went on some hippy wilderness silent retreat for 1 WEEKEND! no reading or distractions were allowed. Though it was voluntary, I found it extremely intense and mentally challenging By sunday night I could not wait to get out.
To a kid who is in a foreign environment without family or friends or anything familiar to them at all it who is in a school which takes everything comforting away because apparnetly they have been such a burden to their loved ones that they deserve nothing (this is the angle the MR website pushes and it takes 8 year olds) I can only imagine that the silence on top of everything else could potentially push a fragile kid over the edge. Your mother may have meant well & your sister may now toe the line so that she does not have to go back but what about the kids that dont get that lucky? What about the kids who are damaged because of it? should WWASP not be able to answer questions from the media?
Also why is it that many of the answers on the WWASPS rebuttal site claim that kids are lying about these thing when even pro WWASP kids and parents have admitted that they dont get to communicate freely "at first"? Both things can not be true.