Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: BuzzKill on May 17, 2005, 02:15:00 PM
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Police called to Ivy Ridge to quell 'riot'
by David C. Shampine, Times Staff Writer
First published: Tuesday, May 17, 2005
OGDENSBURG - As many as 30 youths were reported Monday night to have escaped from Ivy Ridge Academy, the Route 37 facility which has been mired in recent months under allegations of abuse of its wards.
A source described the situation later in the night as a "riot," with an "uprising" occurring on the grounds and at least "30 kids off in the woods."
Some minor injuries, possibly from the use of fire extinguishers, were reported.
State troopers and St. Lawrence County sheriff's deputies responded to the site of former Mater Dei College after the escape was reported at 10:24 p.m., according to a police source. Ogdensburg police and the U.S. Border Patrol were also called to assist, and the Ogdensburg and Morristown rescue squads were placed on standby.
Approximately 110 residents of the facility were gathered in the gymnasium while officials were dealing with the escape, and a call went out to install extra lighting, the source said.
Ivy Ridge is a behavior modification center for troubled teens, with a staff of about 150 attending to nearly 500 residents. It recently came under a second round of investigations into allegations of physical abuse against residents. State police have been reported to have two investigations in progress.
A public relations person for Ivy Ridge said early last week that troopers report receiving about 40 calls a day from parents regarding various issues at the facility. None are of a serious nature, he said.
The state attorney general's office has investigated the facility, and in February, Children and Family Services conducted an unannounced visit there in response to physical abuse allegations
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6:30 AM News Update - Students Stage Escape From Ivy Ridge Academy
Video
STUDENTS STAGE ESCAPE FROM IVY RIDGE ACADEMY
A handful of troubled teens broke out of the Ivy Ridge Academy in Ogdensburg last night.
According to reports, the problems began last night around 10:30 PM. A fire alarm was pulled by a group of students who planned to stage a ?riot? in order to escape from the facility. In the process windows were smashed and fire extinguishers were set off.
15-teenagers were missing for a short amount of time. Fights broke out between the students attempting to escape and students who attempted to restrain them. The melee involved 30 students, 8 were taken to the hospital with minor injuries. The students involved face expulsion from the academy.
New York State police arrested 10 students and one staff member.
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Twelve Ivy Ridge Students Charged With Riot
5/17/05
All of the students involved in Monday night's uprising at Ivy Ridge Academy have been expelled. That's according to the academy's director, Jason Finlinson.
About 12 students and several staff members were injured during Monday night's melee which began when some students attempted an escape.
Ivy Ridge, a few miles west of Ogdensburg on State Route 37 is a corrective facility for troubled teenagers. Parents pay approximately $60,000 to enroll their children in the program.
The facility is on the former campus of Mater Dei College.
State Police say they were called at 10:24 last evening as Academy officials reported a disturbance involving numerous students who intentionally caused damage to the facility and attacked several staff members.
Twenty State Troopers and Investigators responded along with Sheriff's deputies, Ogdensburg City Police and the U.S. Border Patrol.
About 30 students fled the facility in an escape attempt but all were found and returned to the Academy.
State Police say their investigation revealed that the disturbance was organized and initiated by 12 students, all of whom have been charged with Riot, 1st degree along with other charges:
Dustin Kava, 17 - Riot 1st Degree, Assault 3rd, Criminal Mischief 4th
Spagnoli Etienne, 17 - Riot 1st, Criminal Possession of a Weapon 4th, Harassment 2nd
Artie Conte, 16 - Riot 1st, Criminal Mischief 2nd
Christopher Definis, 17 - Riot 1st, Criminal Mischief 4th
Vadim Soskil, 18 - Riot 1st, Disorderly Conduct
Thomas Jeon, 17 - Riot 1st, Assault 3rd
Brandon Docusen, 16 - Riot 1st, Harassment 2nd
Daniel Burke, 17 - Riot 1st, Disorderly Conduct
Quintin Pedrick, 16 - Riot 1st, Assault 3rd, Criminal Mischief 4th
All nine of the above were arraigned in town of Oswegatchie court and held in St. Lawrence County Jail in lieu of $2500 bail each.
State Police say three 15 year olds were also charged with Riot 1st, Assault 3rd and Menacing 3rd. Their names were not released. They were issued Family Court appearance tickets and returned to Ivy Ridge Academy.
All of those injured in the incident were treated at Claxton-Hepburn Medical Center and released.
State Police say the investigation continues and additional arrests are possible.
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Well, at least these kids will now be spending their time in jail, where they can contact their families, get medical care, and not have their civil rights violated, instead of a gulag.
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Yeah, except for the ones who get sent back, "expelled" and then shipped off to Jamaica. :cry:
A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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My first thought was were there goes a bunch of kids to Jamaca - but the kids have all got charges pending now - They can't send kids with charges pending out of the country can they?
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the kids were expelled. that means they aren't going to be allowed or admitted to any of the other wwasps schools. including jamaica. the
contracts are very specific about to the idiot that said they're better off in jail - guess you've never been there to experience the peer sexual abuse, violence, degrading, cliques or whatever. Guess they don't think it will happen to them. tough lessons. I'm sorry for the parents that gave so much and now this happens.
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[ This Message was edited by: hugakid on 2005-05-17 20:41 ]
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These kids escaped for a reason - most were old enough to know that their rights are being seriously undermined. If this was not an abusive facility perhaps the teens would want to stay. These programs keep children confined and isolated from everything dear to them - their friends, family and support networks. It's no wonder they tried to escape. In detention they will have more rights than they have at IVY ridge. They will be able to visit and talk to family members every day. They will not be forced to sit and stare at a wall in structure. The abusive methods used at WWASP facilities are illegal to use in juvenile detention.
Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits.
--Dan Barker, author and former evangelist
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This is the newest article with their "mugshots." Some will see delinquents when they look at their faces and will say good, they deserve it and it's good there are places like Ivy Ridge.
Then there are the people who understand and know. Know what pain and suffering these children go through in these places. They were most likely running for a very good reason. But now they have records and who knows where they'll go.
Don't doubt for one second that WWASP is going to let them go that easily, contract or not. I would bet just about anything that those kids will find their way (a) back at Ivy Ridge, or (b) in Tranquility Bay, on their faces for months to come. That's my best guess, given their track record. They traffic kids, constantly, from one place to the other.
And in TB, well, they won't have to worry about them revolting when they're locked up in some little room, faces to the ground, restrained until they scream in pain and agony each time they move, why wouldn't they keep the money flowing in for those kids?
I wonder where those boys are tonight. Those of you who pray, I'd say a prayer for them. And for the others left behind, and all kids in these places.
http://www.newswatch50.com/news/local/s ... BFCC76B986 (http://www.newswatch50.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=9BD023BD-422B-490A-BFEA-3DBFCC76B986)
I think this one's been posted already, but I'll put them in one place to make it easier:
Twelve Ivy Ridge Students Charged With Riot
5/17/05
All of the students involved in Monday night's uprising at Ivy Ridge Academy have been expelled. That's according to the academy's director, Jason Finlinson.
About 12 students and several staff members were injured during Monday night's melee which began when some students attempted an escape.
Ivy Ridge, a few miles west of Ogdensburg on State Route 37 is a corrective facility for troubled teenagers. Parents pay approximately $60,000 to enroll their children in the program.
The facility is on the former campus of Mater Dei College.
State Police say they were called at 10:24 last evening as Academy officials reported a disturbance involving numerous students who intentionally caused damage to the facility and attacked several staff members.
Twenty State Troopers and Investigators responded along with Sheriff's deputies, Ogdensburg City Police and the U.S. Border Patrol.
About 30 students fled the facility in an escape attempt but all were found and returned to the Academy.
State Police say their investigation revealed that the disturbance was organized and initiated by 12 students, all of whom have been charged with Riot, 1st degree along with other charges:
Dustin Kava, 17 - Riot 1st Degree, Assault 3rd, Criminal Mischief 4th
Spagnoli Etienne, 17 - Riot 1st, Criminal Possession of a Weapon 4th, Harassment 2nd
Artie Conte, 16 - Riot 1st, Criminal Mischief 2nd
Christopher Definis, 17 - Riot 1st, Criminal Mischief 4th
Vadim Soskil, 18 - Riot 1st, Disorderly Conduct
Thomas Jeon, 17 - Riot 1st, Assault 3rd
Brandon Docusen, 16 - Riot 1st, Harassment 2nd
Daniel Burke, 17 - Riot 1st, Disorderly Conduct
Quintin Pedrick, 16 - Riot 1st, Assault 3rd, Criminal Mischief 4th
All nine of the above were arraigned in town of Oswegatchie court and held in St. Lawrence County Jail in lieu of $2500 bail each.
State Police say three 15 year olds were also charged with Riot 1st, Assault 3rd and Menacing 3rd. Their names were not released. They were issued Family Court appearance tickets and returned to Ivy Ridge Academy.
All of those injured in the incident were treated at Claxton-Hepburn Medical Center and released.
State Police say the investigation continues and additional arrests are possible.
6:30 AM News Update - Students Stage Escape From Ivy Ridge Academy
Video
STUDENTS STAGE ESCAPE FROM IVY RIDGE ACADEMY
A handful of troubled teens broke out of the Ivy Ridge Academy in Ogdensburg last night.
According to reports, the problems began last night around 10:30 PM. A fire alarm was pulled by a group of students who planned to stage a â??riotâ?
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History of accusations. Pending invesitgations. Riot and escape attempt.
HRM. IF THERE IS SMOKE, WHATS THE CHANCE THAT THERE IS A FIRE, HUH?
BTW, BAGHEAD. I have seen a TON of people who have been in both jail and programs say Jail was better to them! In jail you can actually contact people, get medical care, get a lawyer, etc.. Maybe youd like to ask Antigen about it herself?
"to the idiot that said they're better off in jail - guess you've never been there to experience the peer sexual abuse, violence, degrading, cliques or whatever. Guess they don't think it will happen to them. tough lessons. I'm sorry for the parents that gave so much and now this happens."
The parents gave nothing but money! They sure as hell failed as parents in some manner. Programs are nothing more than abdication of rights and responsibility to some asshole who also takes your money.
And whats that? Peer Sexual abuse, violence, degradation, and cliques? WAIT! THATS WHAT GOES ON IN THE FUCKING PROGRAM! :flame: Those also happen to be classical programs a program supposes a kid will deal with outside of them. Did you get that from one of your seminar handbooks?
Rose colored glasses, two for a dollar! The whole state and all the parents must need to save up and buy a TON because if theyre this dense, or this corrupt, they're going to need them to look at themself in the mirror. The optimist thinks that this is the best of all possible worlds, and the pessimist knows it.
-- J. Robert Oppenheimer
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On 2005-05-17 21:03:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
Maybe youd like to ask Antigen about it herself?
"to the idiot that said they're better off in jail - guess you've never been there to experience the peer sexual abuse, violence, degrading, cliques or whatever. Guess they don't think it will happen to them. tough lessons. I'm sorry for the parents that gave so much and now this happens."
Ok, I've been to a group home in the cracktown section of Sarasota, FL, Macon and Cobb county Georgia JDC and to Straight, Inc., in reverse order. If I had it to do over again, I would have slugged Virgil Newton on my intake and taken 2 years in JDC and the group home. Hands down, no need to ponder the issue. Just before JDC, I was all ready to lung for the cop's gun and/or slug my mother in order to get arrested rather than go back. Thankfully, he told her he couldn't make me go if I didn't want to. Then he asked her to leave and I thanked him sincerely.
If triangles had a God, He'd have three sides.
--Old Yiddish proverb
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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On 2005-05-17 11:15:00, BuzzKill wrote:
New York State police arrested 10 students and one staff member.
What did they arrest the staff member for? Was he helping and Pepper Spray Jay ordered them to? Or are the police maybe actually listening to the detainees?I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist
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What I just LOVE is there is no name or mugshot of the ADULT CARETAKER, but mugshots (pathetic ones at that :sad:) and and names, and AGES, of the underage kids who tried to break out.
Isn't that illegal to disclose? Ah, wwasps, clearchannel... you are such whores. Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul alike.
-- John Muir
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to the idiot that said they're better off in jail - guess you've never been there to experience the peer sexual abuse, violence, degrading, cliques or whatever. Guess they don't think it will happen to them. tough lessons. I'm sorry for the parents that gave so much and now this happens. "
The psychological abuse WWASP inflicts on its prisoners is far, far worse than any prison. As I said, in jail, unlike at Ivy Ridge they will not have their civil rights violated. They will be able to get medical care, contact their families, not get restrained or put in solitary confinement for months, not be subjected to Lifespring seminars and Synanon-style groups, etc.
Jail is a far better place for these kids than the program.
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On 2005-05-17 14:54:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"My first thought was were there goes a bunch of kids to Jamaca - but the kids have all got charges pending now - They can't send kids with charges pending out of the country can they?"
Want a bet? And even if they don't, they might just convince a nice judge to be "lenient" and court order them to Jamaica.
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I have been in about 9 diffrent county jails and a Texas Prison unit for 4 years.
All were a vacation compared to "programs"
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YES!!!! This is wonderful news. This is the only way to escape the facility while you are there. Did you see the mugshots?? They look like normal teenage kids! They are old enough to be out of the program, and it must be great therapy to riot and beat down staff. I would have loved to do that. Fire extinguishers are the only weapon around, because they are required by law.
Notice how they had to fight other students off as well. The upper levels... the jr. staff as they are called. Fuck them. I would have beat the shit out of them just for the fun of it. They could of let them go or whatever but they decide to fight their own peers in the name of the program. Fucking disgusting if you ask me.
The JR staff better be carefuly who they fuck with while they are there- because we get out- and you better hope you don't run into us on the street. They dont let us leave with addresses for a reason.
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I feel sorry for the parents who believed an organized group of liars who tell you your kid is ina safe ,staff watched school .
Who knew the troubled kids are the
staff."
My call to the DA will hopefully enlight them to what really happens within the facility to PROVOKE a kid to act this way.
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Does no one KNOW or CARE about the danger these kids are in now that they have been returned to Ivy Ridge? I am home just terrified for these kids. And their parents? Can just hear them now: "OH, I'm so sorry my kid has caused you all these problem. SEE, I told you he was out of control. PLEASE help him. YES, Jamaca sounds NICE. Yes, that place sounds just like what he needs to really help him GET THE PROGRAM. He is such a lucky boy that you are giving him a second chance." LORD HELP THESE KIDS!
Please write to these reporters and do not stop writing! These kids are in danger!
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Ginger asked why the staff member was arrested - I don't know. All I know, so far, is what's in the articles. I expect we'll find out in due time.
Someone mentioned a judge being "lenient" and sending the kids to TB. I had a friend point out that concern yesterday and have to agree this is a real risk.
Hopefully, this event will get enough media attention for the judges and attorneys involved to take note; and Maybe this will all turn out for the greater good of all concerned.
As some others have pointed out - Jail being preferable to the program - my son would agree. He told me very plainly after a week end in jail that it was a cake walk compared to Dundee / now Pillars of Hope. Not exactly the effect I was looking for - making Jail seem like an easy, or positive thing.
Kids out of the program have often pointed out prisoners are not treated in as oppressive and stressful manner as the lower level Program kids are.
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Ivy Ridge students charged after rioting, escape
by James R. Donnelly, Times Staff Writer
First published: Wednesday, May 18, 2005
, Sarah Booth & Chris Garifo
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OGDENSBURG - Twelve Academy at Ivy Ridge students face rioting, assault and other charges following an uprising and escape from the school for troubled youths Monday evening.
"You had a small group of young men who didn't want to be there any longer," St. Lawrence County Sheriff Gary J. Jarvis said. "They were assaulting staff and one another. I think they staged the fights so they could get out."
The melee reportedly started in the boys dormitory, where several windows were broken, fire extinguishers were discharged, a juice machine was overturned and dishes from the kitchen were broken.
"When I was there it looked like every boy on that campus was involved, but no girls," Mr. Jarvis said.
About 35 sheriff's deputies, state troopers, city police officers and U.S. Border Patrol agents were called at 10:20 p.m. to quell the riot and search for missing students. State police dogs were brought in to assist in tracking some of the youths who fled but were not used to take any into custody, troopers said.
During the rioting, some 30 of the school's 450 students fled the Route 37 campus, which is 5 miles west of the city on about 240 acres of heavily wooded land. Most were found close to the campus, and all were returned to Ivy Ridge by 3 a.m., police said.
Two academy workers suffered minor injuries during the rioting. Eight students went to Claxton-Hepburn Medical Center for treatment of injuries. Two students were arrested there and the other six returned to Ivy Ridge.
Charges against the teens stemmed from things they did on campus before fleeing, Undersheriff Kevin F. Wells said.
"Nobody that we are aware of committed crimes against the public," Mr. Wells said.
Tommy L. Austin, 26, of 29 Rensselaer Ave., an off-duty academy worker called in to help during the disturbance, was charged with disorderly conduct after allegedly swearing and being unruly while a student was being arrested. He was issued an appearance ticket to appear in Oswegatchie Town Court on May 25.
Ivy Ridge has expelled 25 students, including all of those charged with crimes. Of those expelled, 14 did not leave the campus during the riot.
"The ones expelled were instigators of the riot," Academy Director Jason G. Finlinson said.
Little evidence of the rioting could be seen at the campus Tuesday. Academy officials would not let the media into the dormitory area but said damaged areas had been cleaned up by morning.
Students dressed in Ivy Ridge's uniform of khaki pants and white shirts walked the halls in straight lines, each counting off when turning a corner, a sign that structure and discipline the school is noted for had returned.
"It's as normal as it can be," Mr. Finlinson said.
A team of therapists has been talking to students to find out what was known about the incident beforehand and to assess the impact the rioting had on teens there.
"You have to understand the caliber of the students who are here. They don't want to be here. They don't like structure. They don't like authority," Mr. Finlinson said. "But what they did last night wasn't acceptable in anybody's book. They put their lives in danger. Who knows what can happen when you go outside these walls?"
Several parents of students said the riot has not caused them any concern and praised the way it was handled by Ivy Ridge officials.
"The school called in all of their staff and the situation was taken care of," said Janet L. Szlyk of Dudley, Mass., whose daughter, Leighann M. Keogh, 16, has been an Ivy Ridge student for almost 15 months.
Mrs. Szlyk said she believes her daughter is safe at Ivy Ridge.
"Like anywhere, there's always going to be problems that arise," she said.
People also need to keep in mind that Ivy Ridge is not a normal boarding school, but is a behavior modification center that takes in hundreds of troubled teens, said Malaica Valiente of Davie, Fla., whose daughter, Sofia R., 14, has been a student at Ivy Ridge since April 2004.
Mrs. Valiente, like other parents of students there, was contacted by Ivy Ridge officials Tuesday and told of the rioting.
"What happened is some younger kids did something stupid," Mrs. Valiente said. "I've been there and I can't believe they would want to run away."
A resident living near Ivy Ridge took news of the runaways in stride. After being told to lock her doors during a call from Ivy Ridge officials Monday night, Pat A. Campanella, of 568 Route 37, turned on her scanner and watched out her window as a couple of students were picked up by police.
"You expect this kind of thing every spring," she said. "We were just hoping nobody would get hurt."
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It's so sad that these kids have no way out - no contact with the outside world. They live in extreme conditions of stress day in and day out. This does not sound like a therapeutic environment at all - marching in line, counting as they round a corner. Who would want to live like that. It's so sad that parents just dump their children off into such a caustic environment. These chidren need to have a way out. They should be able to petition a court for release - since their human rights and civil rights are being violated.
I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way.
--Robert Frost, American poet
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This is so unreal...
i remeber when i was first in the program I dreamed of planning a large scale escape for everyone. Or I would daydream of what I would do in case of a riot. Im sure those kids were being abused and damn if they didnt take a stand. A drasitc one that unfortunatly will land them in jail. I am so impressed by their courage. Stand up for what is wrong in this world and you get beat down. I just cant believe they were charged with all that. Geez! I dotn know if jail is better. Probably similar. At least they can fucking read! And watch tv. Unfortunatly Im sure the parents will not see them as punishment for a while. Sigh....
I am thinking and sending positive vibes to those kids and think we all should. And the kids still having to endure Ive Ridge.
Amanda
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Those 12 who were arrested should go to the press with their stories. They should let the world know why they tried to escape. I'm sure they would expose the many horrors that occur daily at IVY ridge. I'd suggest they call a press conference if they can. This is the time to expose what's going on. If they were being abused and were there against their will then they may have had a right to escape in the eyes of the law. They truly need to expose all they witnessed and endured at Ivy Ridge. This could exonerate them.
May the fleas of one thousand llamas infest your armpits
--One ticked off sysadmin
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Ya know, if we could find out where they're being held, we could probably write them letters.
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
--Bruce Lee
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Attn: The Kids name
St. Lawrence County Jail
48 Court st
Canton NY
13617
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Students are not provoked to act this way. They were obviously acting like jack asses before they got themselves into a program. What should parents do let there kids continue to destroy themselves with drugs and violence? Maybe I should be like the rest of the people on this forum and continue to not care. It is hard for me to understand what to do with these kids that are beating up others who are innocent and just happen to be standing in the way of a child who has a drug addiction or can't control himself. Tell me what would you do?
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Jack ass?, maybe. My kid was a danger to himself before I took him to AIR. Basically, thats why I took him. It did not take me long to realize that I would rather he die of his own stupidity (should I not be able to prevent it) than endure the treatment he was receiving in the name of my love at AIR. Those boys cannot possibly believe that anyone that sends them there loves them. They are left to believe that the parents know and consent to the treatment that are forced to endure. If the boys are able to get the word to their parents, the parents are told that they are lying. I wish I could have taken all of them home, jack asses or not.
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On 2005-05-19 18:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Students are not provoked to act this way. They were obviously acting like jack asses before they got themselves into a program. What should parents do let there kids continue to destroy themselves with drugs and violence? Maybe I should be like the rest of the people on this forum and continue to not care. It is hard for me to understand what to do with these kids that are beating up others who are innocent and just happen to be standing in the way of a child who has a drug addiction or can't control himself. Tell me what would you do? "
Well, first off, I'd take the bag off my head and step up to the plate.
I understand the survivors of bad stuff wanting their anonymity.
You, on the other hand, have no *good* excuse at all.
I use a handle, but anybody who reads here very long knows my real name, I don't hide it.
Why should I give any weight to your opinion if *you* don't believe in yourself and what you say enough to step up and stand behind it?
Everyone who knows me from this forum knows I support involuntary commitment of adults or children in certain situations, and what my standards for an appropriate facility are, and why.
So far, all you've given to support your argument is prejudice and hot air in a brown paper bag.
Continue to not care? That's rich. What do you think I'm here for, my health?
What I would do, since you asked, if I were you, is: first, take the bag off your head; second, instead of speaking from prejudice that assumes that any child whose parents want to send him away needs to be confined, I'd start talking about criteria and who decides; third, I'd start talking about appropriate standards for safe and effective facilities.
Oh, wait. That's what I am doing.
That's what *most* of the parents and survivors (most of whom, if middle-aged, are *also* parents) here are doing.
If you really care, then the effective thing to do is step up to the plate and start discussing the meat of the issue. The legislators are already discussing it, to a degree that virtually guarantees that in the next five years there *will* be significant legislation. You can either take part in shaping the debate, or you can snipe from the sidelines. But sniping from the sidelines isn't caring, it's just venting your spleen.
Sure, I do that. Can't help it sometimes, even though I do try. If you care so much, come out from behind the bag and get involved with the debate about criteria, and standards, and safeguards.
TimocleaWe should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore.
Mark Twain
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About the legislation: Who do you *think* is driving the momentum for that legislation and the debate about what the legislation needs to say and do?
I'll tell you. It's the grassroots activists just like the people who post to Fornits. Many of the people who write and call their Congressman or Senators on this issue read Fornits, and a number post here. Of those who don't, almost all of them interact with someone who *does* read or post to Fornits, because almost all of them read or post or chat on some other site or list or board or group dedicated to discussing this industry and this problem.
What gets said here affects what people think all over this issue, because what gets said here that persuades and gets remembered gets repeated by the people who take it back to their *other* grassroots forums. And vice versa, of course.
As a, if not the, central communications node for grassroots activism on this issue, Fornits is a powerhouse.
Affecting the debate here influences the content of those letters and calls to legiscritters and is driving the issue. See that bill in Congress? Why is it there? Look right here. Fornits isn't alone, and it certainly doesn't make *less* of anyone else's contribution. What it does is act as a lense, heterodyning with other people's contributions at ISAC and nospank and teen emancipation groups and other places, formal and informal---it's a force multiplier.
So if you care as much as you say you do, get out from behind the bag, wade in, and get to the meat of the issues involved.
Here and now.
Because you'll probably never have a better chance to affect what actually gets passed into law.
There are a lot of ways to help get things done in politics. There are other ways than grassroots. This is how you do grassroots.
And it's going to work, because all the Programs have to oppose it with is blatantly obvious astroturf.
If the Programs were smart, they'd start an open dialogue about criteria and standards and clean up voluntarily. But most of them don't appear to be that smart.
Timoclea
(I've done successful grassroots activism before on another issue. BTDT. This is how this part of the process works.)I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
-- Hunter S. Thompson
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I think I'm'a take a couple of days to set up site mirrors, make out my will and look into some life insurance....
Hands that help are far better then lips that pray.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
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On 2005-05-19 18:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Students are not provoked to act this way. They were obviously acting like jack asses before they got themselves into a program. What should parents do let there kids continue to destroy themselves with drugs and violence?
Or let you do it for pay w/ your fucked up double binds, fear, harassment and other assorted mind games?
How, oh how, is a parent to decide! :roll:
All thinking men are atheists.
--Ernest Hemingway, American author
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Considering that there is actual treatment for drugs and violence that doesnt include brainwashing, bullshit seminars, 'restraint' as torture, shitty food, filthy conditions and being held incommunicado and isolated from their parents, lawyers, emergency services, doctors, and hygene products, theres a lot we could do for a kid that needs help besides being made into a little doll for their parents and the likes of you.
Also, there are tons of kids in there who arent having problems iwth drugs, or violence, or anything (except the program) in that program, and plenty of others, right now! Considering the spamdexes and referral websites of all forms seem to inflate any sort of issue that the average person has in adolescense, or rather any age between 11 and 18 into some mortal danger that requires program incarceration, such a statement holds no salt.
If programs only had the kids that need help, and actually provided help without all the bullshit, corruption, and abuse that does go on, we wouldnt be here!
Who the hell ARE you, anyway, baghead? This I believe: That the free, exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world. And this I would fight for: The freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes, undirected. And this I must fight against: Any idea, religion, or government which limits or destroys the individual.
--John Steinbeck, American novelist
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I have to agree with you. The kids were sent to the program for a reason. They were causing problems at home, lying etc... All of a sudden they go away to the program and their parents begin to think they are angels. The all of a suddent believe the lies. I guess they must of believed the lies before too. Which is probably how their child left their life slip so far out of control.
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Stereotypes are such a timesaver!
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On 2005-05-20 12:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have to agree with you. The kids were sent to the program for a reason.
Yes, because their parents bought into your bullshit.
They were causing problems at home, lying etc...
Oh, you know all of these kids personally? You're sure they're not like the Amish kid who's parents sent her off for thinking about rejecting their religion?
All of a sudden they go away to the program and their parents begin to think they are angels.
This makes no sense whatever! Why would their parents suddenly change their opinions about their kids? Unless, of course, the parents come accross new information that contradicts what you mother fuckers told them to close the sale?
The all of a suddent believe the lies. I guess they must of believed the lies before too. Which is probably how their child left their life slip so far out of control."
Why should we, the public, put any stock in those kids who do speaking engagement and those parents glowing testimonials if they're all a pack of dirty rotten liars? Or are you saying that only those kids and parents who say thing you don't like are liars?
Funny thing is, I don't think anyone's said anything in this thread (yet) about what these kids' parents are saying now that they can speak freely w/ their sons. I'll check, but if I haven't missed it here, wtf are you talking about, WWASPie?? Have you got some info that hasn't hit the net yet? Do tell! :rofl: The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure.
-- Albert Einstein
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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I personaly know of one kid who was sent there because her mother didn't want her around. mommy had 2 kids to two different guys, married another, andwas planning on marrying another when the kid got in the way. Also forgot about the 15 boyfriends (live in), in between.
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Folks, just look at how they advertise.
http://www.helpforteens.net/ (http://www.helpforteens.net/)
Hostility toward family members? My 8yo and 15yo are quite often hostile toward each other. No shit! They're sisters who share a room together!!
Should I call them assholes and send them off to Ivy Ridge?
Depression? Let me call up a few shrinks and see if calling a kid an asshole then shipping them off to hostile strangers is good therapy for depression.
The list goes on and on and on....
There is no devil and no hell. Thy soul will be dead even sooner than thy body: fear therefore nothing any more.
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
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Hey now, ginger... Don't dismiss hostility as not being good at treating depression! Some russians have found out that being whipped is a good way to treat depression, remember that article? :rofl:
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed people can change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has.
-- Margaret Mead
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Yeah, what do you do if your son is smoking weed everyday, is no longer able to go to any high school because he's been withdrawn from every one, disrespects you, decides there is no curfew and practically does whatever he wants. Where would you send him, on a reward trip to Disney World???
You know these school have helped many teens and their parents. There is such a thing as caring parents with really fucked up kids.
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Just hope and pray your kids don't grow up to be thugs and thieves
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On 2005-05-23 19:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yeah, what do you do if your son is smoking weed everyday, is no longer able to go to any high school because he's been withdrawn from every one, disrespects you, decides there is no curfew and practically does whatever he wants. Where would you send him, on a reward trip to Disney World???
You know these school have helped many teens and their parents. There is such a thing as caring parents with really fucked up kids. "
You come to terms w/ the fact that your boy is grown. You talk to him about supporting himself. You hope for the best and keep trying. If you've spent time in a behavior mod program, you know that's not an answer. It doesn't improve his chances or yours. You may "know" that these programs have helped so many kids. But it's simply not true. They have hurt many and proven ineffective for most. From a purely pragmatic view, they're simply not worth the risks as compared to good old fashioned, unconditional familial love.
Vain are the thousand creeds that move men's hearts, unutterably vain, worthless as wither'd weeds.
--Emily Bronte
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On 2005-05-23 19:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yeah, what do you do if your son is smoking weed everyday, is no longer able to go to any high school because he's been withdrawn from every one, disrespects you, decides there is no curfew and practically does whatever he wants. Where would you send him, on a reward trip to Disney World???
You know these school have helped many teens and their parents. There is such a thing as caring parents with really fucked up kids. "
Just in general, because every situation is individual:
If he's under 16, you flush his weed and homeschool him, and if he doesn't come back on curfew, you don't let him go out. If he leaves anyway, or doesn't "attend" homeschool each day when you do lessons, you call the police and report him as truant.
If he's over 16, you tell him he either stops the weed at your house, attends homeschool classes, and comes back by curfew or he gets a job and moves out. You tell him if he doesn't quit smoking weed at your house, or move out (and therefore not smoke weed at your house), you will call the police. You search the house randomly and throw away any weed you find (if it won't flush, the garbage disposal would do).
Then at whatever age you are no longer legally obligated to provide him with 3 hots and a cot and clothes on his back, you can make him move out.
You meet your legal obligations. You give your kid 3 hots and a cot, and clothes on his back, and basic medical care while he's a minor whether you love him or not just because that's your legal obligation no matter how rotten he is. He doesn't have to "pay" you gratitude or affection to get those--they're your unconditional responsibility. Sending him off to a program is throwing an adult tantrum about your obligations and cutting off your nose to spite your face.
However, if you love your child and are patient, then he may move out, figure out what he wants to do with his life, and grow up.
I think if I decided it was time my child flew the nest, the refrain would be, "Just think, if you get a job and move out, you no longer have to hear me nag."
That all presumes that the kid really is rotten---which isn't always true.
I don't believe in "tough love" but I'm a great believer in Mom Fu. Sometimes I take a tough line with my daughter. Sometimes I stand back and let her work out a problem for herself. Sometimes I remind her that I'm here if she decides to ask for advice. You have to know when.
If I needed to take a tough line with a child about moving out, I would. I wouldn't stop loving her. I wouldn't cut off contact with her as long as she wasn't violent. If she was violent, I'd have her committed--she has a major mental illness, as do I. If I was violent, I expect she'd do the same for me. I don't consider it "to" me because I wouldn't want to be so out of my head that I'd hurt someone and then have to live with that.
But unless she was immediately dangerous to herself or others I wouldn't commit her, and I wouldn't incarcerate her myself, although I would accept the law doing it if she was rightfully convicted of a crime.
Sometimes kids are real PITAs, but it doesn't change our obligations.
A Program just worsens the situation over what it would be if you let the young adult alone. Life is a great teacher. A parent's final *effective* recourse is to stand back and let it teach.
Not to the extent of Programs or Tough Love. There's a big difference between "rescuing" and just being a decent, loving, human being in your interactions with your child. Contact, conversation, the occasional cheap dinner out, and (when solicited) advice are not enabling nor rescuing.
You just let them find out about life the hard way, in the school of hard knocks---an excellent school, BTW. But you give them the lifeline of still treating them like kin.
Moderate, reasonable, sane, functional---good old-fashioned Mom Fu.
Timoclea
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... or call the police? That would be a huge mistake! If my own child is such a mennace as to require being cuffed and stuffed at gunpoint, I'll let someone else call the police.
Give me the youth, and Germany will rule the world.
--Hitler
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if yourkid was acting like a jackass at home, he learned how to act from you the parent. A much bigger jackass.
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//if yourkid was acting like a jackass at home, he learned how to act from you the parent. A much bigger jackass.//
This is true if the kid is in pre-school or kindergarten - but not if they are a teenager.
By the time a person is in High School, cultural influences become more of an influence than anything that the parents might do or say.
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On 2005-05-23 20:23:00, Antigen wrote:
"... or call the police? That would be a huge mistake! If my own child is such a mennace as to require being cuffed and stuffed at gunpoint, I'll let someone else call the police.
Give me the youth, and Germany will rule the world.
--Hitler
"
I would have to be pretty convinced that the person was just *awful* before I would call the police on my kin. But the postulate was that the kid was just awful.
I knew plenty of kids who smoked pot, but they didn't do it openly and blatantly in their parents' house with the parents standing right there.
This is all a hypothetical imaginary kid, and remember I said every case is individual.
I took the hypothetical to mean kid openly, blatantly, drugging in right front of the strenuously objecting parents in their own house.
I would give the kid the option of getting a job and moving out instead of me calling the police, but if he was just like, "I'm underage, so you can't kick me out, screw you, I'll do whatever I want." while getting intoxicated in my house right in front of me, yes, I'd call the police.
Mostly because of the other problems that would indicate.
I wouldn't call the cops just because the kid had taken a toke of a joint at a party. It's unacceptable behavior, but I'd opt for the traditional Mom Fu to deal with it.
But to me, a kid that will smoke pot in his parents' home, in front of them, with a "screw you" attitude and won't stop is a kid who will steal the car keys and drive intoxicated. Imminent danger.
Maybe I'm wrong, and I don't think that's ever going to be my kid---my dd has different problems, not of her or our making, but challenging to all of us anyway. But I *would* do that in that extreme of a situation.
In my house, in my face, with me objecting, and it's something major and not just a verbal fight, and won't leave. That's enough to trigger me to call the cops on kin.
Timoclea
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Even if I had to ask a teen to move out, that doesn't mean I wouldn't help the kid with ongoing costs of education. I would. My view is that my obligations don't disappear just because someone else doesn't do what I want.
Timoclea
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By the time a person is in High School, cultural influences become more of an influence than anything that the parents might do or say.
If your parents had done there job when you were growing up, cultural influences would not have that much effect on you. If you grew up with assholes, the chance that you will become one are pretty good
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I'd have to be in immediate fear for my life or the safety of one of my kids and completely out of other options.
The thing to remember about being a teenager is that all these new habits and beliefs are not that well set. As long as you have the freedom you need you can change your tune at the drop of a hat. Once Leo has got you tagged and bagged, it's not so easy. So involvement w/ Leo is much, much to be avoided.
Cops, you wake `em up, you gotta dance w/ `em. They lead.
I don't believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
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I understand that sometimes children come down with an illness in the teen years that changes their personality or adds a lot of other challenge---and I mean separate from adolescence itself.
I understand that sometimes children are exposed to traumas despite the parents' best efforts.
I understand that sometimes children's pediatric mental problems take a turn for the worse in adolescence if the kid's problems are not very responsive to medication or the parents have done a poor job presenting the need for medication and setting the foundations for medication compliance.
I understand that if a person, child or not, gets a bad knock on the head or other brain damage, it can permanently screw up personality.
But *most* of the time when I see genuinely bad teens or teens with severe enough conflicts with their parents to make them bad, the root cause of the problem is the parents' failure to teach empathy when the child was young, especially by example, and the parents' failure to apply attention, affection, empathy and compassion to the growing child/teen through *all* the child's ages and stages.
Someone I know who got shipped to a program, who shouldn't have been but was having some *minor* "bumpy road" adolescence issues, had parents who would fly off to different parts of the country in different directions with their jobs, and with essentially no advance notice tell this child, "Oh, you're going to have to find someplace to stay this weekend, because we won't be here." Once, when the parents did this, this child ended up staying at a friend's house--not because of invitation by the friend, but because of compassion by the friend's family in taking the child in, for *THREE WEEKS*!
In the parents' defence, did they perhaps think their adolescent might prefer arrangements made by the child over whatever arrangements they made? Perhaps. But it's vital in parenting for your child to know you care and you're watching out for them, even when they struggle and push your kisses away with an, "Aw, Moooommmm!" A child of any age always has to know that Mom and Dad want to hold and treasure and love it and that its ventures out into the world are the child's *own* idea, despite Mommy and Daddy really wanting to hold on but lovingly letting go and watching with bated breath.
A child that's taught empathy will have a certain fundamental respect for other people and their property. That all *comes* from empathy.
You never need to teach an empathic child not to be a thug or a thief---all you have to do is put the question in terms of, "How would you feel if someone did that to you?"
The crucial thing broken in sociopaths and psychopaths is *empathy*---and a lot of times it's not because they always lacked the capacity, but because it wasn't *taught* by example and careful nurturing of the trait at the critical ages.
A child with something neurologically wrong may have unusual problems with impulse control and judgement, but those are frontal lobe functions, and the frontal lobe doesn't physically mature in anyone until the early twenties. Better impulse control and judgement is something a child naturally grows into as its brain finishes developing.
One of the absolute stupidest things these Programs do is deprive a kid of music. They ought to be playing complex instrumental music for all the childrens' waking hours and making music classes for making music mandatory. Music works critical frontal lobe functions and fosters and speeds development. There are no guarantees that it will improve everything, but it's one of the best tools we've got.
It's not prayer that keeps a kid from growing into a thug and a thief (although private, silent prayers can't hurt).
It's competent parenting.
And if you don't know how to teach compassion, and empathy, and work the areas of the brain that foster impulse control and judgement---if you're a parent, it's your job to *learn*, either before you have a child or while your child is young.
It's not *luck* that raises an empathic child. It's skill.
Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." (Which, of course, is also the primary principle of Wicca, just in different words.)
Empathy. An empathic child will not hurt even total strangers by thuggery or thievery, beyond the childhood ages that are normal for that, and absent mental illness.
Compassion. A child treated with compassion by her parents in formation and application of the household rules will not have more than *rare* technicolor rages over the household rules, absent mental illness. When the rules are formed, applied, and explained with empathy and compassion on the part of the parents, children and adolescents *mostly* follow them.
The Programs methods of what they make daily life like for the adolescents in their care are barbaric and antiquated as regards treatment of mentally ill persons. They do mentally ill persons more harm than good.
To the extent that they foster suspicion of informers rather than empathy, they're bad for the juvenile delinquents, too.
If you want a juvenile delinquent to not turn into a lifelong sociopath, you have to take advantage of your last chance to teach empathy.
*My* child will not grow up to be a thug or a thief because she has already firmly developed the capacity for empathy. She's learned the trait. It doesn't just go away absent serious actual *damage* to the brain.
If you don't understand child development and what makes thugs and thieves what they are, then of course it looks like "something that could happen to anybody" and random Acts of God which kids grow up which way.
If you *do*, then you know that when your child has a firmly-seated, well-developed sense of empathy, you're out of the woods for sociopathy or psychopathy.
And that impulse control and judgement improve for just about everybody by the time they reach their early twenties just because of the completion of physiological development of the frontal lobes. So that part--for an empathic kid that gets in scrapes from bad impulses and bad judgement--just takes time. Although you can foster quicker and better development with activities targetted to that part of the brain, many of which may seem to bear no relation to the tasks you're trying to improve---they just happen to "live" in the same neighborhood of the brain.
If you know what the hell you're doing, raising a good kid is no accident.
Timoclea
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8:30 AM News Update - Parent Of Ivy Ridge Student Denied Access To Records
PARENT OF IVY RIDGE STUDENT DENIED ACCESS TO RECORDS
At least one parent is unhappy with the way the administration handled an uprising at Ivy Ridge.
9 students were arrested and Ivy Ridge expelled 40 students in the wake of what was described as a 'riot' at the Ogdensburg school. A parent of a student in the program told NewsWatch50 that after spending more than 20-thousand dollars on the program she is being refused transcripts and records of her child's performance and treatment.
She has gone to the State Attorney General in an effort to get the records released.
All but one student has been released from jail.
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There is no report of this on news watch 50. Why are you making stuff up buzz?
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Oh and timolca, your long winded responses probbably don't get read all the way through, if people are like me and get real boared at you rambling.
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On 2005-05-26 05:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh and timolca, your long winded responses probbably don't get read all the way through, if people are like me and get real boared at you rambling."
Sorry to hear about your short attention span. Perhaps you belong in a program. They all claim to treat ADHD. At least Timoclea can put forward a coherent argument rather than just throw around random abuse. She can spell too.
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On 2005-05-26 04:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"There is no report of this on news watch 50. Why are you making stuff up buzz?"
http://www.newswatch50.com/news/local/s ... E21E391469 (http://www.newswatch50.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=4DB5EC95-BA55-4A96-AF66-5DE21E391469)
Time to eat humble pie, sucker!
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That is not what buzzhead posted. His own story?
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Bullshit, it is exactly what BuzzKill posted. You have already paraded your lack of English comprehension twice. If you don't want to make an even bigger fool of yourself than you already have I suggest you refrain from posting until you have taken some remedial English lessons.
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Ivy Ridge Academy Investigated By Attorney General
The Ivy Ridge Academy in Ogdensburg is under investigation by the State Attorney General for issuing diplomas that are ?essentially worthless?.
The Academy is not currently accredited by any agency or the State to issue diplomas. School officials told the Daily Courier in Ogdensburg that private, non-public schools such as the Academy are not required to hold accreditation to operate. School officials deny any wrongdoing and are working with the A.G.?s office to address concerns. The school has also agreed to suspend issuing diplomas until it obtains permission to issue State-approved ones.
Students currently enrolled are being asked to transfer credits earned there to their schools of origin. If the school accepts the credits from the Academy, they can be awarded a diploma from their home school.
St. Lawrence County District Attorney Gary Miles told the Daily Courier that the A.G.?s office has been in contact with him and expects to wrap up the investigation soon. The Academy has said it will comply with any conditions set by the A.G.?s office and the State Education Department.
http://www.newswatch50.com/news/local/s ... 765757272D (http://www.newswatch50.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=A284BFC5-8726-4275-90F1-52765757272D)
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On 2005-05-19 13:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Attn: The Kids name
St. Lawrence County Jail
48 Court st
Canton NY
13617"
Do you have names? I'd glady put $ in their accounts in jail and write letters of support.
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On 2005-05-26 05:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh and timolca, your long winded responses probbably don't get read all the way through, if people are like me and get real boared at you rambling."
[/quote
Some people get bored reading, some don't. I'd guess you're not likely to buy any of my books, either. :smile:
It takes all kinds. :smile:
Timoclea
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"The Academy is not currently accredited by any agency or the State to issue diplomas. School officials told the Daily Courier in Ogdensburg that private, non-public schools such as the Academy are not required to hold accreditation to operate. School officials deny any wrongdoing and are working with the A.G.?s office to address concerns."
Does anyone have a copy of the contract that the parents sign for Ivy Ridge? If so, could you tell us what it says in it, verbatim, about the education and the "diplomas" that the children can earn. Also, could you give us the exact verbiage on the contract the parents sign about the accredidation of the school?
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Ivy Ridge seeks ideas of neighbors
by Sarah A. Booth, Times Staff Writer
First published: Thursday, May 26, 2005
OGDENSBURG - The Academy at Ivy Ridge is considering neighbors' suggestions on how to respond when students run away from the Route 37 facility.
Some neighbors complained that Ivy Ridge staff members and students trespassed on their property during an incident May 16. Nearly 30 boys fled the campus after breaking windows and setting off alarms. Some neighbors said Ivy Ridge didn't notify them, and others said they were concerned about the students' safety.
A 90-minute informational meeting Wednesday invited neighbors to tour the campus and ask Director Jason G. Finlinson questions. Forty-four people signed in, including some Ivy Ridge neighbors, town of Oswegatchie Supervisor Alfred J. Nichols and his son, St. Lawrence County Legislature Chairman Thomas A. Nichols, R-Oswegatchie.
Ivy Ridge plans to install an automated phone alert system to tell neighbors when a student has fled. The alert system could be set up in two or three weeks to call everyone who signed in at the meeting, Mr. Finlinson said. The message would advise people to lock their doors and not allow students into their homes.
Previously, Ivy Ridge had used a contact list of people who chose to be notified. Some neighbors on the list said they weren't contacted promptly.
Mr. Finlinson was asked how neighbors who weren't able to attend Wednesday's meeting would be notified in an emergency situation. Some seasonal and elderly residents along the St. Lawrence River didn't attend.
Mr. Finlinson said he may advertise the message system.
"It isn't that hard to get everyone's contact information," said Wylon A. Springstead of McEwen Lane.
She suggested Mr. Finlinson use a tax map of the town of Oswegatchie to find nearby property owners to notify.
"That's a great idea; we'll look into that," Mr. Finlinson said.
Many neighboring residents complained that Ivy Ridge staff members didn't have identification when they were searching through their yards for students. Other neighbors asked why students were out searching for missing students. Mr. Finlinson showed recently purchased reflective vests that he said staff members would be required to wear during a search.
"We have instructed staff to not go on your property," he said. "Last week was an isolated case. The kids were just trying to be helpful. From now on, we'll call 911 and let them do the search."
Not everyone was opposed to Ivy Ridge's past tactics for finding runaways.
"They can run across my property anytime they want because they have a reason," said Daniel A. Cook, of 53 Fell Farm Road.
Other neighbors suggested using a foghorn or a flashing light to alert neighbors when there is a runaway.
"Oswegatchie is going to work with Ivy Ridge too. We'll do everything we can," Alfred Nichols said. "I think they'll have to do better. They've got to."
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What? WWASP isn't offering bounties for catching
runaways as I've seen posted about their Montana
gulags? The tactic ought to work in the Watertown
area too. That's the poorest part of New York
State. The only employer of any consequence there
is the NY State prison system. That's why NYS has
so much trouble getting rid of the Rockefeller
Drug Laws, it would be bad for jobs and the North
Country is overrepresented in the state senate.On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
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Fuck off!!! How's that for English fuckhead!
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They can run across my property anytime they want because they have a reason," said Daniel A. Cook, of 53 Fell Farm Road.
This person had it right. It's so unfortunate that these children are viewed the same as convicts by the residents of the area. I think it would be wise if mailers were sent to residential neighborhoods near these programs to explain the plight of these children - how they suffer brutal punishments in an warped effort to change their behavior and values.
At least one resident - Daniel Cook - understands. Lighthouses are more helpful then churches.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
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I don't think he does. He was talking about the pursuers.
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Well then - it look like those neighbors need to be told what's really happening behind those fences and locked doors.
In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare. Only one who knows the disastrous effects of a long war can realize the supreme importance of rapidity in bringing it to a close. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war who can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
--Sun Tzu (author of The Art of War
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I would of loved for one of the staff to come trespassing on my property looking for students.. BAM!
::unhappy:: ::boohoo:: ::stab::
Other neighbors suggested using a foghorn or a flashing light to alert neighbors when there is a runaway.
These people are fucking crazy. The kid just wants to get as far away from that shithole as possible, not go and rape some elderly resident of the town... although WWASP would have you believe otherwise. Fuck wwasp and that town for being so ignorant.
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Isnt it nice how wwasps takes kids of all kinds, and says they'll fix their problems - yet as soon as they show up, they're ALL dangerous lying suicidal druggies?
Sometimes I wonder why nobody ever noticed that... surely not EVERY child sent to wwasps is like that, but wwasps sure acts like they are the minute they get a child in their clutches.
For the most part we inherit our opinions. We are the heirs of habits and mental customs. Our beliefs, like the fashion of our garments, depend on where we were born. We are molded and fashioned by our surroundings.
--Environment is a sculptor -- a painter.
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I kinda like the idea of sending out mailers. Wonder how one would go about it?
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I am convinced that you people have no life, or a very screwed up one.
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Yeah, Antigen is one. Guess what she did? She fixed her kid without a program? Just like we have for thousands of years.
Why not ask her?
And no, I dont know these schools have helped many people! Nobody except the children really know what goes on, but from what I've seen from them, it seems to be a matter of breaking them down and making them act good, else they get tortured and mentally fucked with in the seminars for a few more months.
Yeah, real good help there buddy. I made a loooonnnnngggg thread asking programmies how the program actually does a DAMN thing, at all, and guess what came out of that?
Jack. Shit. NOBODY seems to even know whats going on, mcuh less HOW this help automagically happens. Do you? And BTW - if you say "instill" I'm going to put my fist down your throat. Harmlessly passing your time in the grasslands away;
Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air.
you better watchout,
there may be dogs about.
I've looked over Jordan, and have seen.
Things are not what they seem.
--Roger Waters 1977
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But you would not take perigaud's word for it either. Seems to me she explained allot and you just don't want to except it. Grow up niles!
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But you would not take perigaud's word for it either. Seems to me she explained allot and you just don't want to except it. Grow up niles!
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Let me announce something: Other than the latest week or so (paper route making it hard) me and Perrigaud talked almost ever freaking night for quite a while, buddy.
Also, guess what she had to say? She thinks the program is corrupt and full of a lot of shit that needs to be changed. Wowzers?!
Oh, and guess what else... the program really didnt do shit except give her distance from her family and access to a therapist. Thats like giving the road credit for a trucker on a long haul!
But anyway, as I already said, programs are very much not necessary. Ginger and her girl got by juuust fine, and we got by fine before programs existed.
And, sorry to say, I've still yet to see a program be able to do any good except provide distance and access to a therapist (for an extra fee) - which virtually anyone, or any business could provide! Plus, those seminars are fucking bullshit, and the 'structure' and isolation is often times a BAD thing.
The structure is apparently redundant, excessive, and geared towards conformity and breaking the kid down, which isnt therapeutic. Also, isolation from parents and/or the outside world isnt going to work terribly well for a lot of kids.
P.S. stop doubleposting. Don't laugh when you leave this courtroom, thinking you have beat the system because you have looked these things up yourself. We are going to get you down the road.
Washington Superior CourtJudge Rebecca Baker
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It needs to happen in more of these programs. Good to see young people standing up for their rights.
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I feel sorry for perigaud, if she talks with your nutjob ass every night :wave:
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Here you are, WWASPie, in all your faux glory. What plan has this brave new world got for you?Merely a eunuch slave tasked to be the keeper and enforcer of the lower classes.
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/13b.htm (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/13b.htm)
Read it and weep and then take it back to your self deluded mentors.
If we had been born in Constantinople, then most of us would have said: "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." If our parents had lived on the banks of the Ganges, we would have been worshipers of Siva, longing for the heaven of Nirvana.
--
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I just read niles last post, I missed the fact that you are doing the job of a 12 year old at age 20. Get any tips for the paper route.
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Ok, now I KNOW youre a troll. LOL
And um... 12 year olds cant wake up at 3 am, coallate/bag 300+ papers, and deliver them throughout a 30 mile route, before 5:30 am!
Puhleeeeze. Oh, and I get $600/mo after taxes. Not bad for part time, huh? :roll:
Oh well, please continue your juvenile bullshit, you're not even worthy of my usual diatribe. Don't hate the media. Become the media
--Jello Biafra
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-05-30 16:24 ]
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go to school niles and get a dergree. :silly:
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Ummmmm I am.
I just finished the spring semester in early May. I'm working over the summer, and I think I might start working full time and taking night classes.
Thanks for telling me to do what I'm already doing! :silly: :wave: A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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This was taken from the youth rights forum:
Hi, this is my first post. I have been reading a lot of posts about Ivy Ridge. My son was just expelled from Ivy Ridge a week ago. They said it was because he was uncooperative and threated to run and threatened to start a riot. I don't know if that is true or not. Right now my son is in a Mental Health Hospital. When he got home, he was in very bad shape mentally. He was hallucinating, confused, hearing voices, etc. He was not like that when he went there!! He was there less than 3 months. I don't know if he was abused, he is talking about how they were brainwashing him. He is afraid to eat food given to him, because he thinks stuff is put in it. I don't know what to think. He doesn't seem to have any bruises, but they could have faded. I think he is afraid to talk. He did ask me where he was, and was he in Jamaica. I think they may have threatened to send him to Tranquility Bay. I had no idea until he came home that the school was under investigation.
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wow good job, Mom. "No idea the school was being investigated". Dumb bitch.
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Not nice.... Give her a break. Most parents don't know what's really going on. They are usually good parents who really want to help their kids.
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It seems that the authorities should be looking into the reason for the riot. Were the kids being abused in any way? I guess that would depend on their definition and WWASP does not believe it is abuse to put a child in solitary laying on the ground "on their face" for over a year.
In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws. But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws.
--Martin Luther King
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On 2005-06-02 15:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Not nice.... Give her a break. Most parents don't know what's really going on. They are usually good parents who really want to help their kids. "
Ignorance, stupidity, and meek (milquetoast) adherance to the programs bullshit rules and lack of communication between parent and child, and then walking into seminars and meekly accepting more bullshit like a stupid fuck and then come out all arrogant and pulling the program line because they get what they are now told to want, total control, IS THEIR FAULT!
Being a 'scared little wabbit' isnt an excuse!
The few people with brains who understand what freedom really entails in America? and realize how bullshit it is that they cant talk to their kids, its too secretive, and more setup to condition and break down than to treat anything, and act accordingly, are the good parents. Those who blindly follow and let themselves fall into those stupid psycho cryfests that Gilcrease panders off after ripping off from lifespring, are not!
Am I bitter? Oh yeah. But the lack of sugar coating I use to tell it to the parents is nothing compared to the torment their own kids faced. War is God?s way of teaching Americans geography.
--Ambrose Bierce (died 1914)
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HI I'm Evgeni Nikolov. I was one of Dustin Kava's best friends. This riot was planned for about a month. We wanted to stop the control!!! Me, Dustin, James Abrahamson, Colt Norville, Quintan and Spagnolli started the riot dustin was fliping out upstairs and the rest of us were doing the job downstairs. After that we went to the kitchen and broke everything. After that me Dustin, Ryan, James, went to the new gym and i pulled the other fire alarm, so the magnetic doors opened and we ran outside. I ran about 3 miles barefoot, becauze i was on run watch. That was the best think that ever happened to me in my whole entire life!!! I think that Dustin is now in jail i think i can't get in touch with him. If someone finds him please tell him to write to me at bgmedia_org@yahoo.com
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You should share your story about Ivy Ridge. I can understand why you decided to escape. No one should be forced into a private lock down. Hopefully all is well with you and your friends.
In God's wildness lies the hope of the world x the great fresh unblighted, unredeemed wilderness. The galling harness of civilization drops off, and wounds heal ere we are aware.
-- John Muir
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hey anon, congrats on getting out. Must of been great! :grin:
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....so I'll say it again---God bless those Teenage Freedom Fighters who courageously rioted at Ivy Ridge! Truly a great example to us all.
Oh, and to the anon. program parent who "had no idea"--you stupid cunt! You put your kid in a teen torture facility based on the propaganda/sales pitch they gave you, now you try to act blameless "I had no idea....". Fuck you.
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Hi it's me again the story is not that big. We all did that becauze we were sick of adults playing with us like idiots. For example when Dustin (Kava) received his exit plan it said that he has to graduate high school there so he got about 2,5 credits left and one of the shift supervisors Randy Garvy told him that he can't test for no reason so me and Dustin just flipped. That just one of the rediculas stories if you want me to write more about there just tell me ok?
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On 2005-06-09 22:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"... if you want me to write more about there just tell me ok?"
Please do. Tell us everything there is to tell.
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On 2005-06-02 16:25:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"
On 2005-06-02 15:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Not nice.... Give her a break. Most parents don't know what's really going on. They are usually good parents who really want to help their kids. "
Ignorance, stupidity, and meek (milquetoast) adherance to the programs bullshit rules and lack of communication between parent and child, and then walking into seminars and meekly accepting more bullshit like a stupid fuck and then come out all arrogant and pulling the program line because they get what they are now told to want, total control, IS THEIR FAULT!
Being a 'scared little wabbit' isnt an excuse!
The few people with brains who understand what freedom really entails in America? and realize how bullshit it is that they cant talk to their kids, its too secretive, and more setup to condition and break down than to treat anything, and act accordingly, are the good parents. Those who blindly follow and let themselves fall into those stupid psycho cryfests that Gilcrease panders off after ripping off from lifespring, are not!
Am I bitter? Oh yeah. But the lack of sugar coating I use to tell it to the parents is nothing compared to the torment their own kids faced. War is God?s way of teaching Americans geography.
--Ambrose Bierce (died 1914)
"
Well, I disagree with you.
There are some really stupid people in the world and it's not their fault. In some sense, it's the fault of the rest of us for not putting safeguards in place to identify them and keep them from, in their stupidity, doing harm to others.
Stupidity is not a character flaw. I suppose it makes the most sense to think of it as a disability. *Some* of these parents are mentally incompetent to manage their children's affairs and the kids needed a guardian ad litem.
We in society did not identify that problem ahead of time and protect those kids. We're *not* stupid--so what's *our* excuse?
Some of those parents were not stupid but were simply defrauded and incorrectly believed they were protected by the ordinary consumer protection safeguards that apply in almost every other similar magnitude of endeavor in our country.
We have strong laws to protect against cruelty to animals, including when those animals are in some sort of facility.
What reasonable parent would imagine that there weren't simlar strong laws to protect against cruelty to children, or malpractice upon children, or unethical mental health procedures upon children?
I certainly didn't know and wouldn't have guessed that this could happen in America until it *did* happen to a member of the SF Fen Community, who, as part of membership in that community, had a number of responsible adults who knew her very well and knew her placement was totally and completely inappropriate.
When she was rendered incommunicado, I went digging. But, whether all this information was easy or hard to find, and whether it was easy or hard to verify or assess the credibility of it---well, I can't judge that. I can't judge that because I know I'm unusually good at researching and digging out info. Not bragging, just fact.
So I found out, and I was shocked.
But most parents don't know, and have no reason to even suspect that no effective regulatory framework exists to protect them from being defrauded and their children harmed by con-men who just want their money--and enjoy the absolute control over the kids, too.
There have always been people who are easily conned---easy marks. There always will be such people. That's why our society seeks to protect those people from themselves, as much as possible, with regulation and consumer protection legislation.
Being an easy mark is a tragedy, not a character flaw.
Society fights each latest con game by passing or enforcing consumer protection laws, and by advertising the existence of the con, and its warning signs, to make it less likely the easy marks will fall for it.
The parents who are easy marks can't help it. We can blame them all day long and it won't do a damned bit of good.
The only thing that will do any good is to publicize the con and its warning signs, and to put in place the political solutions.
That means not only legislation, but ensuring enforcement. The only way to control politicians is with the old activists' adage: they'll either see the light, or they'll feel the heat.
We need an organized, large advocacy group that can work on both fronts of publicity and government activism.
It's no use blaming easy marks for being easy marks---we're always going to have them. The best we can do is try to reduce the risk of them harming themselves or others.
Timoclea
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On 2005-06-09 22:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hi it's me again the story is not that big. We all did that becauze we were sick of adults playing with us like idiots. For example when Dustin (Kava) received his exit plan it said that he has to graduate high school there so he got about 2,5 credits left and one of the shift supervisors Randy Garvy told him that he can't test for no reason so me and Dustin just flipped. That just one of the rediculas stories if you want me to write more about there just tell me ok?"
I answered one of your other posts but I can't find it now. In a hurry today. Could you please fill us in on the expelled kids? I'm guessing you're home and safe. What about the rest? Do you know what happened to them? Did they land up in Jamaica or Cosa Rica? Did you go to jail? If so, how was it compared to the Program?
These are some of the things prospective parents need to know about ahead of time.
Thanks,The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
--George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English playwright
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They will do and say just about anything to KEEP kids in the program. To prevent him from testing was just a manipulative tactic that is often used to show parents that the child is not ready to go home. They will also lie. Of course they try to convince parents that their children are manipulative and that they will do just about anything to sabatage their program. They really don't tell parents what exactly the program includes - like prolonged isolation, take downs and hold downs and druggings.
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so now you are telling us that they used drugs on you, that is too funny what else do you have for us!!!
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I have heard from other students that the program would dope up the kids. One girl from Dundee discribed little white pills that made her walk into walls.
Another confirmed it and further claimed it was morphine.
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They do use drugs to control teens. For chemical restraints they use a horse dose of either Haldol or Thorazine - both have dozens of horrific side effects. They also like to put most kids on Seroquel - which is used for truly psychotic people. It's the drug of choice for schitzophrenia - anyway - they do use drugs to control kids and to punish them.
If you think about why you hate me, you might find that it's not me.
--Antigen
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Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution
inevitable."--JFK
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You don't have a peaceful revolution. You don't have a turn-the-other-cheek revolution. There's no such thing as a nonviolent revolution. Revolution is bloody. Revolution is hostile. Revolution knows no compromise. Revolution overturns and destroys everything that gets in its way.
Malcom X
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Okay adout the drug thing, they put me on alot of drug they call them "anty-deppresing pills" but we all know what it is. Some terrible stuff happened there i personally saw in front of my eyes Mr. Lucas Smith punching a kid named Zavier Etheredge. So exactly after the riot all of the "expelled" kids were sleeping in "Intervention" and Mr. Lucas droped water on us in the middle of the night so Zavier spit at the wall and Mr. Lucas literarly JUMPED on him and started punching him in the chest. Then One other kid i forgot his name spit out of the window and Mr. Lucas jumped on him too "He thought that the kid wanted to run". One other time me and Ryan Wose started to scream when a parent came on a parent tour and after that Mr. George Tulip, Mr. Jaseon Finlison and Mr. Eric Brassoit came and jumped on us in the "no camera room". Yes they have a special room with no cameras it's right next to Intervention.
If someone want's some more information write me on my e-mail(bgmedia_org@yahoo.com) (that's my site's e-mail don't worry i'm not a reporter.but those bastards close my site (too much illegal stuff)hihihihi
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bill to end institutionalized child abuse
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http://www.petitiononline.com/hr1738/petition.html (http://www.petitiononline.com/hr1738/petition.html)