Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: bandit1978 on May 16, 2005, 06:55:00 PM
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If a cult is (partly) defined as a group that tells it's followers that their way is the *only* way to go, does that mean that AA and NA are cults?
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Does anyone think it isn't?
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ooh, this is always a fun topic! :lol:
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Can I be coffee maker???? Pleeeassseee??
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Looks like I'm gonna need a whole new line of gremlins. . .
What is ominous is the ease with which some people go from saying that
they don't like something to saying that the government should forbid it. When you go down that road, don't expect freedom to survive very long.
--Thomas Sowell
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I vote for the "does anyone think it isn't?" as the reply of the year. :nworthy:
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O.K.,You got me.
I originally found this site by googling Cedu on the computer here at the community college.Since then I have spent several hours studying cult practices as they relate to so-called rehabilitation,so-called treatment,so-called behavior modification,so-called alcoholism,so-called drug addiction and all the other lame shit that goes along with sick and abusive nonsense in the guise of help.
I am and will probably remain, forever disgusted.
The sad conclusion that I have reached is that I have wasted an incredible amount of time in my life trying to understand something that is incomprehensible,trying to fit into a world that I didn't want to be a part of anyway(the so-called recovery world),and trying to change myself into something that various and random fuckheads thought I ought to be.
Being indoctrinated into cult practices at an early age left me vulnerable to the type of crap that AA slings around.Man... Do I hate to admit it,but I've fallen for more of this bullshit than just about anybody.
Fortunately,I've been able to gather alternative perspectives on these matters.Thanks in no small part to this website and it's contributors.
I have spent way to much time with AA.Is it a cult? You're Fuckin-A-Skippy.I won't be back.
Fortunately also, is the fact that AA is dying.The senile,drooling,slobbering old bitch is about gone.Good riddance to pedophile Buchman's cheesy con.One more dissatisfied customer and a handful of psyche-meds ought to just about do it.Throw dirt on it and piss on it's grave.
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I've seen many young men die as a result of the devastating effects of alcohol on the gut, liver, pancrease and brain. AA has helped many alcoholics including my own child. People need to find the right meetings to go to. I went to meeting with my child and thought it was the best thing I've seen in a long time. People helping each other - sharing their stories and giving support to one another.
Alcoholics who hate AA continue down the path that leads to death. AA has saved many lives and it's a worthwhile program with a proven track record....I recommend it all the time. It's alot better than costly rehab programs or brutal residential programs.
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See, thats what I think is so annoying about the responses to this particular topic. So you believe AA is a cult. You also believe that programs are a cult among other things, which they are. They are abusive and not helpful because of that fact. But AA IS NOT ABUSIVE so calm the fuck down about it will ya? If it works for others wether you like it or not, then good for them I say. If the "cult" of AA didnt work for you, dont dog it just because you didnt get the help others got with it. Find a way that works for you and move the fuck on. I am so tired of this whole "AA sucks because I dont like how they run it." It isnt abusing people, it dosnt even come close to doing damage to people the way programs do, so let it go for gods sake! People on this forum talk about choice and how people shoudl be allowed and have the RIGHT to make their own choices but when someone chooses to get help in a non abusive way, you ridicule and act disgusted towards them. Come one now. What more do you want? They are getting help. Good for them. Lets move on. I apologize for getting so angry about it, but AA helps people I feel so it is annoying when people complain about programs needing to be shut down, but when there is an alternative to a program, they dog on it too.
Amanda
"That which does not kill me makes me stronger."
-Fredrich Nietzsche
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On 2005-05-16 20:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
people shoudl be allowed and have the RIGHT to make their own choices...
Calm yourself, Amanda. People have a right to comment on things too. Nobody said anything about sending all the stepcraft cult members to concentration camps or anything.
I'm not even going to get into (yet again) the bogus success claims or the definition of a cult.
Why do stepcraft apologists always seems so strongly compelled to provide free attack therapy to anyone who criticizes the XA?
A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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On 2005-05-16 19:44:00, RN on Board wrote:
Alcoholics who hate AA continue down the path that leads to death. AA has saved many lives and it's a worthwhile program with a proven track record....I recommend it all the time. It's alot better than costly rehab programs or brutal residential programs. "
Any proof of that? Cause Enoch Gordis spent around $25M (that used to be ours) researching and discovering that there's no difference in outcomes between people who "keep coming back" and those who blow it off as bullshit.
Here's one good doctor's write up on that:
http://www.schaler.net/fifth/selling.html (http://www.schaler.net/fifth/selling.html)Lighthouses are more helpful then churches.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
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"RN on board"- do you ever recommend alternatives to AA? Have you heard of Moderation Management, or would you ever recommend just moderating ones drinking? I think that, with a bit of guidance and structure, many people can learn to moderate their drinking, without resorting to AA. Are you saying that your *teenage* child was an alcoholic?? Teenagers, especially, should be taught moderation.
Amanda- you are right, though. AA is not abusive, not like those programs are. And people should be free to find whatever works for them, (religious, educational, ect...) It's just that AA seems pretty extremist, and, like a cult, rejects any methods other than theirs.
Thanks for the feedback.
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Free attack therapy?
RMFLMAO...Ginger!
AA is a cult. Somthing doesn't have to be "abusive" to be a cult.
I think AA is silly, right down to watching 20 guys hold a AA meeting..IN THE BAR OF A WHOREHOUSE/HOTEL IN CENTRAL AMERICA.
hehe
Ginger knows the story, I sat down at the table with a beer and OWNED all 20 of them in a debate about AA, and the whole place listened in. This may have been the most fun I ever had in an open debate!!!!
The silliest part to me is the testimonial Successes. Just like the bullshit program testimonials, 95% of them drink after their last successfull testimonial. That is why 20 year button is AA are rarer than a AA meeting without coffee, cigarrettes and cussing.
And the success rate of AA has been demonstrated at ZERO using AA's own internal documents.
AA....what a silly concept...Disease treatable with Cigarrettes, crying, self delusion and coffee!
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On 2005-05-17 08:52:00, GregFL wrote:
Ginger knows the story, I sat down at the table with a beer and OWNED all 20 of them in a debate about AA, and the whole place listened in. This may have been the most fun I ever had in an open debate!!!!
I would've paid good money to see that!! :lol:
btw....Penn & Teller's Bullshit is back on!!! anyone catch the episode on AA last season? Genius!!!I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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GregFl raises hand...I saw it!
Gotta love those guys
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In responce to bandit who asked about encouraging moderation in alcohol consumption - moderation management. True alcoholics can not drink at all - that's why they are alcoholics. It just doesn't work. A true alcoholic will keep drinking until they are DRUNK - that's why moderation doesn't work. I learned a lot about it because my own child became an alcoholic.
It only takes a female 2 drinks to trigger the alcoholic gene - it takes a male only 3 drinks to trigger the gene.
I thought the same - I asked her "why can't you just have one beer or a glass of wine - why do you have to get so inebriated that you loose consciousness." This comment showed my utter ignorance about the disease that has ruined so many lives. I would have been happy if she could have just had one drink - but she would continue drinking until she passed out. People who are alcoholic can't just have one drink. It wont stop there. You need to do some more research about the disease before you encourage true alcoholics to use "moderation management."
AA will not cure alcoholism. One man at an AA meeting said, " There's good news and bad news. The good news is there's a cure for alcoholism. The bad news is - you are the cure." AA does give a lot of support to people who feel all alone. It sure helped my child - while residential treatment did absolutely nothing except scare the hell out of her.
Here are the benefits:
1) Support of people in the same boat
2) good advice from others who have quit drinking
3) support for families of alcoholics
4) an outlet to share your story with people who will not judge you - because they have the same problems.
5) IT's FREEEEEEEEEE
6) It has helped many people stay sober
I wont even get into the power of prayer and trusting in a higher power - but it works for many people....just because it doesn't work for everyone doesn't mean it's not worthwhile.
There's no way out for the alcoholic - encouraging them to drink moderately is not the answer. The only way for them to be cured is to completely stay away from alcohol.... It's the only cure. Obviously one of the posters here quit on his own - bravo. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for all. Congratulations to you.....doing it solo is quite an accomplishment. :wave: :tup:
Just like to add that every doctor and therapist I know suggests AA to their patients. The 12 step program can work - if one does it. It's just like weight watchers - you can loose weight if you follow the program.
The problem with most alcoholics is they can't even reach step one - admitting they are an alcoholic.
Alcohol is no one's friend. It will make you feel good and then leave you feeling depressed and sick the next day. I've seen too many young men die as a result. They come in confused with abdomens distending out like they are ready to give birth. Their skin is yellow and their livers are shot. I've seen men in their 30's and 40's die. It's a serious problem in our society.
I support AA because I saw how it helped bring my child back. I think it works.[ This Message was edited by: RN on Board on 2005-05-17 10:44 ]
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RN, as a medical pro, I'm sure you're well aware of the placebo effect or the power of suggestion. Do you think maybe, just possibly, that if you convince someone that they're powerless over alcohol--incapable of moderate drinking--just possibly that might have some placebo effect?
Or, more plainly stated, can you explain how instilling a belief in powerlesness could not have this effect?
Everything that people say to you is personal. Whether it is constructive criticism or not will determine whether it cam from and asshole or not.
----Bill Warbis
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"Rn on board"- How are you able to differentiate an "alcoholic" from, say, a "problem drinker"? (other than the jaundice).
I *have* looked into this. I learned about it in school. Also, when I was 19, I was charged with "Driving after illegally consuming alcohol", which meant that I was *not* legally drunk (for an adult), but because I was a drinking minor, and there was "zero tolerance" at the time, then it was illegal for me to drive cause my BAC was 0.05. (legal BAC for an adult being 0.08) My parents thought it was pretty ridiculous (I had just come from my mother's dinner party, where I had had maybe 2 glasses of wine). So they got me a very good lawyer, and all I had to do was go to ASAP (alcohol safety action program), and there was nothing on my record.
At ASAP, they provide education on how to recognize "problem drinking". Then they require that we all attend like 8 AA meeting over the 8 weeks of the program (program was like 1 or 2 hours per week). They admitted that many of us likely were not alcoholics, but that we should go to AA just to know that it is available.
So we went to AA, and I thought it was really weird. I was like, okay, so ASAP provides tools to recognize "problem drinking", but offers no real methods for dealing with "problem drinking", just "go to AA"??
Now, I was quite young at the time, and not in nursing school yet, but I found this to be a disservice.
So, though people may have "alcoholic genes", still it takes practice to become an alcoholic, right? Even if one does have serious "alcoholic genes", doesn't it make sense that, if you intervene early on, it is possible to teach these people to moderate their drinking?
I simply do not believe that this is not viable, as I have seen too much evidence to the contrary. I know lots and lots of people who have the "alcoholic gene", and provided they had guidance early on (usually from a parent), these people are able to drink alcohol like normal people.
I also think that a Moderation Management (organized) program should be available to people (like Weight Watchers is), and that teenagers should be educated about this at school, and I think this would prevent some people from really going off the deep end, later on.
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Oh Brother, RN sounds like those in the religion thread!!
No wonder, eh?
AA is more akin to religion whatwith its closely held dogma.
Pffffhhht.
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On 2005-05-17 11:37:00, bandit1978 wrote:
I also think that a Moderation Management (organized) program should be available to people (like Weight Watchers is), and that teenagers should be educated about this at school, and I think this would prevent some people from really going off the deep end, later on.
But Bandit,
Alcoholics who hate AA continue down the path that leads to death.
Are you trying to kill all those alcoholics by giving them a way out?
The most fundamental purpose of government is defense, not empire.
--Joseph Sobran
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On 2005-05-17 10:25:00, RN on Board wrote:
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It only takes a female 2 drinks to trigger the alcoholic gene - it takes a male only 3 drinks to trigger the gene.
Please cite the research on this.
You need to do some more research about the disease before you encourage true alcoholics to use "moderation management."
You need to do some more research before you lump everyone into the same category. I drank alcoholically for quite a while. When I was IN AA I would continue to "binge" drink. Once I STOPPED believing all the crap about being powerless, lo and behold, I started to be able to leave that label behind and I discovered that I COULD drink like a normal human being.
Here are the benefits:
1) Support of people in the same boat
2) good advice from others who have quit drinking
3) support for families of alcoholics
4) an outlet to share your story with people who will not judge you - because they have the same problems.
5) IT's FREEEEEEEEEE
6) It has helped many people stay sober
You can get the same results from that proverbial "blue dot" and a couple of good friends.
but it works for many people
Again, reasearch please? Even stats!
There's no way out for the alcoholic
Well, not if you keep talking to them like THAT there isn't. :roll:
The 12 step program can work - if one does it.
There it is again. AA's "successes" are credited to AA, but the "failures" are because they didn't work the program enough. Sounds eerily similar to religion.
Alcohol is no one's friend. It will make you feel good and then leave you feeling depressed and sick the next day.
Are you stating this patently, across the board?? That's an awfully broad statement. Should we go back to prohibition days then??
Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful.
--Friedrich Nietzsche
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I feel that 12-step programs were a continuation of the damaging beliefs that i was taught at the Re-education Gulag to which I was sent. They wasted five years of my life. There is no one to be mad at about this except myself, I guess. Sure it wasn't as extreme as Straight, but the confounding beliefs were all there, what a bad person everyone was, inherently "full of shit". People were always being accused, although often in a roundabout way, of "sitting in their shit", "blaming", or "self-pity". To people in real pain, who might well have been drinking and/or going to meetings in order to have some relief from the pain of abusive relationships past and present, painful life situations and so on, this is very definitely extremely abusive.
There were a couple of books I read toward the fading end of my previously dedicated tenure in the meetings, one was The Truth About Addiction and Recovery. That helped. It also helped to have a buddy out in the parking lot who was also starting to see that the emperor wore no clothes.
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Ginger,
I just quit smoking, so sorry if I lashed out. And, by the way, I just quit. I bought nicotine gum, but decided that instead of tourturing myself by chewing that crap every half hour, I woudl just stop. And it worked. No steps, no gum, no patch, no support groups, no therapy. Just me. So yes, it can be done. Its hard as hell to quit cold turkey from a pack and a half a day and i can be really irrational and rude and angry, but at least I decreased my chances of dying from cancer and decreased the chances of my child growing up to smoke. Well, the reason I get so angry is that yes people can comment on this all day long if they want as it si an open forum. However, it seems the main reason people on this forum get so pissy and upset is because of the abusive non- voluntary treatment that goes on in the US and elsewhere. AA is a choice. And if it is a cult then that cult has helped people i know and love. It isnt hurting anyone or you or your kids and I fell it is weird that you guys get so down on a form of treatment that is voluntary and not harmful. If the person who goes to AA still drinks after trying it then that is a good reason for them to find alternative methods of treatment or try the stop method. But it didnt psychologically injur them or force them to do anything tthey didnt want to do. So why are you guys so intent on hating it, even as far as saying it shoudl be shut down simply because you dont like it. Im sorry your family is rude because of their involvement with treatment. But not all peopel turn into assholes whent they go into AA. Ive found it is the opposite with the peopel i know. And success, i feel, is defined by the person. It is impossible for you or I to try to see if AA works. You would have to follow that personsentire recovery tilll they die. Some people it works for, they relapse, they go back, they realpse, they go back, ect. YOu dont know how many of those poepel who it didnt work for might go back later and find success. If it is keeping that person sober right now that is success. The fact that Im not smoking right now means more to me than if Im still not going to be smoking 2-3 years from now. Hell I could die tomorrow. All I have is today. Im not even in AA. I just like it because it helps others in a non abusive way. Why do people who arent in AA feel so strongly compeled to critisize it? Because oyu dont like it. And peopel who like it will critisize those who dont. Until we all just let each other alone and let it help those it helps and let those it dosnt get help elsewhere, then we are always going to debate and critisize each other.
Amanda
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In response to a few things that Cayo said to RN,
Isnt the whole damn point of recovery not to drink? Well, if the person is not drinking then its successful right? Well, like i said to Ginger, do you only determine the success rate of AA by the people who went and drank again? Do you sees tudies of that persons entire recovery program? If not hen how in the world would you know if AA is succesful for them or not? For example, one could go to aa, not drink, drink again, go back ot aa, not drink, drink again, go back, and vnever drink again. Everyone is different. Therefore it is pretty near impossible to prove AA is innefective if you dont look at the persons recovery form the time they joined to the tiem they die.
Amanda
PS, Wouldnt it be better for a person who drinks too much to go to aa and stop drinking then to try nothing at all and possibly die from it? Especially since it is a VOLUNTARY program. And it is free? And it is not abusive? How do you know that some person who was drinking alot tried aa and that little while of not drinking kept them from gettign in a drunk drivign accident, commiting a crime while drunk that woudl have followed them the rest of their lives, or stopped their liver from being destroyed? YOu dont know, so I say kudos for them for trying something. Placebo or not, cult or not, it is helping people stay sober RIGHT NOW.
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On 2005-05-17 17:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"In response to a few things that Cayo said to RN,
Isnt the whole damn point of recovery not to drink? Well, if the person is not drinking then its successful right? Well, like i said to Ginger, do you only determine the success rate of AA by the people who went and drank again? Do you sees tudies of that persons entire recovery program? If not hen how in the world would you know if AA is succesful for them or not? For example, one could go to aa, not drink, drink again, go back ot aa, not drink, drink again, go back, and vnever drink again. Everyone is different. Therefore it is pretty near impossible to prove AA is innefective if you dont look at the persons recovery form the time they joined to the tiem they die.
I'm not trying to prove AA ineffective. No need to. The burden is on those who claim is IS effective. Whenever this debate is brought up someone (or 2 or 3 or more) start yammoring about the "success" rate of AA. Back it up is all I'm saying. I talked mainly about how you can get the same "success" as AA claims (5% according to there own, report) from the token of your choosing and a couple of good pals.
I personally found it harmful for the reason I stated earlier and for what FKA posted. I found it to be extremely judgmental, contradictory, predatory, self-defeating and controlling. That was MY personal experience with it. Never did find that happy, joyous and free feeling until I finally woke up and realized how utterly full of shit it all was. THAT'S when my life finally began to make some sense and start to improve.
I hope you click on the links that have been provided for you here. Ya never know, you may just find a few things in there you hadn't thought about before. Start with something fun though, try this one... http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/topics.do?topic=12 (http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/topics.do?topic=12)
watch the video. The whole show was great.A student burst into his office. "Professor Stigler, I don't believe I deserve this F you've given me." To which Stigler replied, "I agree, but unfortunately it is the lowest grade the University will allow me to award."
--Professor Stigler
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I got to the site, but when I tried to click on the pic of Penn and Teller that says aa video,it wouldnt load. I have that problem alot cuz of a slow computer. Anyway, religion has people brainwashed into thinking a higher power can solve anything. AA touches on that, but as Ive said many times before on this topic, not all AA groups are the same. I was never forced to do ANYTHING the way the Big Book says. My sponser was a really understanding person. Times change and progress is inevitable (hopefully) I have more open mind about it. The things that I feel are good about AA I can hold onto and accept into my life. The things I feel are sexist, religious, or "cultish" if you will about it, I dont accept. As I said, i am not in AA. I was, but am not now. I actually have found that I can just not do it. I am ok with not drinking. I have had alcohol poising so many times I almost puke when I smell alcohol let alone drink it. So I just dont do it. AA has a certain way of doing things. Yes the big book says in order to stay sober you must do everything in it or die. But not all AAers feel that way and not all groups follow the docterine exactaly. I have found inspirational awsome groups that I would go to regardless of wether I was a memeber of AA or not, simply because they have very interesting and smart things to say. AA is not more effective than other treatment. However, it is effective for those it works for. Sorry yall, but you cant go up to an alcoholic in AA who is sober and happy and say, "Yes well, you may be sober and happy but because the success rate is so low on paper and statistically, you really dont count. So sorry, but the statistics proove, you are not really going to stay sober." You dont know anymore than I do if someone will stay sober or not and wether AA has anything to do with it or not. I agree with the choosing a good frinds thing. Most of my best friends are in AA and I take advantage of their intelligence, humor, and all around greatness on a daily basis. They are good people. They feel AA has alot to do with that. Wether it does or not, Im glad they are who they are and I love them.
I feel bad for you that you found groups that sucked. i did too, till I found some that didnt and werent judgemental, contradictory, predatory, self defeating, or controlling. Theres a whole hell of alot of Aa meetings out there. Not all are the same. Theres at least a meeting evey hour here in Colo. Spgs. And all of them are different. Sure, alot have judgemental assholes, but I wouldnt be advocating AA while not a memeber if I hadnt found some cool meetings. I would have to agree with you if that were the case and say they all suck. But there are smart, cool, witty, awsome peopel in AA out there, who are constantly expanding their knowledge of what works and dosnt work in AA and who are sober and happy because of it.
Amanda
"If you would be loved, love and be lovable."
-Benjamin Franklin
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I'll have to agree - there are some really good AA meetings - and a person seeking help needs to go to several to find the support group that works best. AA is all about support, fellowship. It's a place where you wont be judged because others there have been where you're at. It is free for all and it does help some people stay sober. So does therapy. If AA can help someone gain sobriety even for one day - then it has served it's purpose for that one person. An alcoholic has a disease - it's not easy to cure. Unfortunately they end up loosing so much in the end - if AA can help in some way then it is a worthwhile program.
True alcoholics can't just have one drink and drink in moderation - they will - at some point drink too much - too fast. My neice is now in jail for her second DUI - she never went to AA. Couldn't admit she had a problem - like many of the posters here who are so critical of a very good program.
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Some of you sound like you don't want to give up the booze. Truth be told - most of you who are critical of AA probably have problems with alcohol and don't want to give it up. It will -at some point become your worst enemy.
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AA is now integrated into youth psychiatric care. I'm talking about hospitals... not just programs and such. I think its counter productive.. a little too black and white IMO.
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On 2005-05-17 20:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Some of you sound like you don't want to give up the booze. Truth be told - most of you who are critical of AA probably have problems with alcohol and don't want to give it up. It will -at some point become your worst enemy. "
Bullshit. You don't even know any of us. My brother (the XA fanatic) once warned me that I could be an alcoholic all my life and never know it! I could work, earn a good living, have my life run smoothly and be happy all the time and never know that, in "reality", I was a pittiable drunk. I told him "Yeah! That's my goal! Now take another Prozac and shut up!"
:roll: I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers.
-- A Bit of Fry and Laurie
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On 2005-05-17 20:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'll have to agree - there are some really good AA meetings - and a person seeking help needs to go to several to find the support group that works best.
Ok, I've heard about those. And I've heard of the seven cities of gold, too.
AA is all about support, fellowship. It's a place where you wont be judged because others there have been where you're at.
Unless, of course, you persist in believing that you've never been within 3 zip codes of what these people describe. Then you'll know judgement!
It is free for all and it does help some people stay sober. So does therapy.
Proof? I know a lot of chronic bingers who attend AA. Don't know too many chronically sober people who do.
If AA can help someone gain sobriety even for one day - then it has served it's purpose for that one person.
One day? Really? All those people, all those hours, all those slips to sign, but it's worth it if just one of them is too broke for beer for one single day? I think you're getting carried away just a bit.
An alcoholic has a disease - it's not easy to cure.
Nevermind how hard it is to diagnose! Goodness! It evades every lab test and clinical observation known to mankind on any continent! It's the most stealthy disease ever encountered. As stated above, I've been informed by a veritable XA connoisseur that one can have this disease for a long and happy lifetime w/o ever even suspecting its presence, far less suffering the effects, it's that insideous! Only a fellow stepcraft practitioner can properly diagnose this mysterious and terrifying disease. They are so incredibly prophetic that they can diagnose a dry drunk w/ a blindfold on and only the 2nd hand word of a partial party that the person quit drinking w/o AA.
:roll:
Unfortunately they end up loosing so much in the end - if AA can help in some way then it is a worthwhile program.
And if it can't (as in the case of around 90% of ppl who try it; according to AA's own publishing) then it's not a worthwhile program.
True alcoholics can't just have one drink and drink in moderation - they will - at some point drink too much - too fast.
This is starting to sound like a broken record.... or.... worksheets!
My neice is now in jail for her second DUI - she never went to AA. Couldn't admit she had a problem - like many of the posters here who are so critical of a very good program. "
And we, very obviously, are not in jail. Ever think that if you had offered her normal, basic familial love and support instead of helping her find her bottom by "not enabling" she might not have landed up in jail?
No, too painful! Better go to an alanon meeting where they can assure you that you owed her nothing, nothing!, once she took that first drink!
Welcome to the turning away...
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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Amanda- again, I have to say, if most of your best friends are in AA, then I am worried about you.
Thats like saying "All of my friends used to be in prison". Okay, one of my best friends is in prison, but he has a very interesting story, and was convicted of one of those "victimless" crimes. But if *most* of my friends had been in prison, well, that would just be embarrassing! It makes you look like... :wstupid:
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...really, thats nothing to boast about.
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I knew I shouldn't have gotten into this. Happens every time, just like the religion threads. People believe cause they want to believe......period.
Look, I've been to enough meetings (believe me!) to nullify the "you just haven't found the right one" crap. I have a problem with the BASIC TENETS of AA. You seem to have a problem with the fact that I have a problem with AA. Why? I"m not telling you not to go. I"m not telling you that horrible things will happen to you if you continue to go but you feel completely justified in telling me crap like this...
Some of you sound like you don't want to give up the booze. Truth be told - most of you who are critical of AA probably have problems with alcohol and don't want to give it up. It will -at some point become your worst enemy.
First, so what if I DON'T want to give up alcohol??? I enjoy it and now that I've realized I'm NOT powerless, I don't have a problem with it.
Second, how the fuck do you know what's going to happen in my future?? You claim that AA is not judgmental etc., but YOU just COMPLETELY judged me!!
A few years back I was out on the boat and a bad storm came up. I saw a guy that I used to talk with quite a bit at one particular AA meeting that I found. I ducked into his slip to get out of the storm and the first words out of his mouth were "When are we going to see you at a meeting again?" I hadn't been for a few years. I spent the next half hour explaining to him that I just couldn't justify living my life by a set of rules developed BY A CERTIFIABLE LUNATIC and derived out of a religious cult. He was stunned! Had no clue as to how to respond. I then went on to tell him of the harm that I think Straight AND AA did to my family. My father refuses to talk to me STILL. This guy is about my dad's age and thinks a lot along the same lines. He and his two daughters were not on speaking terms at the time. I ran into him a few months after that. He THANKED me!! He said that he spent a few weeks thinking over what I said and looking into AA a little more. He still goes to meetings occasionally, but not like he used to. He refuses to sponsor people anymore because he realized tha danger in placing someone in a position of power over another. He re-thought how he was handling the situation with his daughters and they're now speaking and re-developing the relationships that were damaged by his close following if AA's principles. Now, bear in mind that this was a 20 year AAer. Ex-navy, disciplined, hard core AAer. Hmmm. Who'd a thunk it??
I"m not trying to convince you of anything. You like AA, you think its a great concept. You think its successful. I've asked you to SHOW me the research that proves it is. You can't. Again, I don't need to prove its NOT successful...all I'm doing is giving you my opinions. Why do you feel the need to provide me with the dire forecasts of my life that you have? I haven't been to a meeting in I couldn't even tell you how long. Life is pretty good. I don't really have any major complaints. Where is the death? Where is jail? Where is the mental hospital? Why am I not on the streets? ALL of those things were predicted for me when I decided that I no longer needed people to give me instructions on how I should live my life. Now those same things have been predicted by a couple of anonymous people on a message board that have NO CLUE who I am or what my life is all about.
But AAers aren't judgemental or anything. No. :roll: If every cigarette you smoke takes seven minutes off your life, every game of Dungeons & Draggons you play delays the loss of your virginity by seven hours.
--Brian Warner - The Long Hard Road Out Of Hell
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On 2005-05-17 20:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'll have to agree - there are some really good AA meetings - and a person seeking help needs to go to several to find the support group that works best. AA is all about support, fellowship. It's a place where you wont be judged because others there have been where you're at. It is free for all and it does help some people stay sober. So does therapy. If AA can help someone gain sobriety even for one day - then it has served it's purpose for that one person. An alcoholic has a disease - it's not easy to cure. Unfortunately they end up loosing so much in the end - if AA can help in some way then it is a worthwhile program.
True alcoholics can't just have one drink and drink in moderation - they will - at some point drink too much - too fast. My neice is now in jail for her second DUI - she never went to AA. Couldn't admit she had a problem - like many of the posters here who are so critical of a very good program. "
See??? Perfect example of what I've been talking about. You are so SURE that I have a problem that I'm not recognizing SIMPLY BECAUSE I REJECT AA. Do I really need to say more????Don't let your dogma run out in front of your karma.
--Anonymous
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Here's another example of the absurdity of the AA mind. My grandmother is 87 years old. She was widowed in the early 40s with two small kids to raise and support. She put herself back in college, became a teacher, retired, bought an Airstream trailer and traveled the country for about 15 years, by herself. She now has a wonderful b/f ( :roll: :roll:
Understand that legal and illegal are political, and often arbitrary,
categorizations; use and abuse are medical, or clinical, distinctions.
--Abbie Hoffman
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Dear Bandit,
I am a stay at home mom. I dont have a job or go to school. When i got pregnant and quit drinking and doing drugs, most of my "friends" quit talking to me. They couldnt handle me sober with a child no less. The only friends who stuck around were those in AA and yes a few others. I cant help it that my "friends" took of on me and the ones who stayed happened to be in AA. That is why most of my friends are in AA. And if all my friends had been in prision, if they were good people I would have no shame in saying that. To say I sound like a stupid person for saying most of my buddies are in AA is super judgemental and really you just sound ignorant and mean. You dont know my frinds. You dont know me. Do you think Im friends with them because they are in AA? Did you not hear me? I am not in AA. I dont go to meetings, have a sponser, ect. Just not doing it workes for me. And a couple of my friends were in prison for ridiculous drug shit that shoudnt have been. You make it sound as if peopel in AA and in prison are bad and should be shunned. For shame.
Amanda
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Oh and bandit,
Did I sound as if I were boasting? Just stating a fact. So yeah.
Amanda
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Cayo,
I hope you are refering to the other Anonymous posts and not mine. I dotn agree with them. I think AA can be good for some and not others. I never said you had to go either. If you didnt like it then I am glad you have found moderation. I have as well. AA dosnt fit me and I dont go. All I was saying is there are meeting out there that are great even if you are not interested in joining AA. I am glad I went the couple of years I did, if for nothing more than the fact that I met soem very cool people there. They are the friends, by the way, who have stuck by me no matter what. Not sure if that has anything to do with AA, but it has alot to do with the fact that they are not the flakey people they were when drinking. I just hope we can all just find what works for us and move on. Its like with religious people. I am not religious and dont particularly care for religion. My family is full of religious zealots. I love them, but they can drive me crazy. I just dont discuss religion with them. Just because they are a part of a ignorant stupid thing dosnt mean they are bad people. And I appreciate most of them. And I respect their CHOICE to be religious as long as they respect mine not to be. And for the most part, they do. The ones that dont, I dont really care for them and the great thing about being an adult, is I can not be around them if I dotn want to. So if there are peopel who are rude to you about AA and peopel on this forum who are judging you because they feel you need to quit drinking or whatever then ignore them. Who cares what they think? As long as you are happy then thats all that matters. No need to get all bent out of shape about ignorant people. There are too many in the world to get hung up on it. But dotn judge all people who like AA because of a few bad seeds.
Amanda
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Hey Amanda. I missed this the first time through. Congrats on quitting smoking! Never heard anyone ever say "Damn, if only I had kept smoking!"
::bigsmilebounce:: :rofl:
Unfortunately, she's representative of a LOT of stepcraft practitioners. Not all of them. Just the ones who can't stand for anyone to discuss the finer points of the Program or to speak publicly about any bad personal experience w/ it.
But, when it comes down to it, it's like any other religion (and the courts have consistently ruled that it is a religion for the purposes of the establishment clause) There are perfectly wonderful people who dig AA and don't go around chastizing the infidels and being rude. But there are also a lot of those other kinds. And those ones tend to be medalsome and quite destructive. Not because they're bad people to begin with. But because they can't comprehend how shoving AA down someone else's throat could possibly be anything but good.
As far as the efficacy of the Program, I'm w/ Cayo and Greg on that. There is research available that suggests (but doesn't prove) that AA is exactly as effective as any other intervention or no formal intervention at all. If you want to quit or better moderate your drinking and you believe that AA will help, then you'll do it. But the same is true of any other talisman. Some people attribute their sobriety to church attendance, taking up a sport or hobby, a vow to a spouse or what have you. My dad decided to go on the waggon for awhile. He took out his pencil, figured out how much he was spending on beer each week and spent that amount on lotto tickets instead. It worked for him because he worked it.
Never let your sense of
morals get in the way of
doing what's right
--Isaac Asimov
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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Oh whatever you judgemental shit head! You dont know me. "You need to get out more." Ha! I feel sorry for you that your that rude and inconsiderate. At least on this forum I try to be kind and understanding of other peoples points of view. I am perfectly happy staying at home with my awsome kid and spending alot of time with my family. Plus like I said before, I love my friends. They are such good friends, in fact, that I dont feel the need to go out searching for more friends. They fufil all my friendship needs on a daily basis. Instead of wasting my time wiht a bunch of flakey ignorant people, I keep the few good friends I have. I would rather have two really awsome friends instead of thirty so-so friends. But Im sure you must be an expert on my life and therefore I wouldnt need to tell you that right?
Amanda
"A true friend is the greatest of all blessings."
-Duc De La Rochefoucauld
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Please tell me someone didn't march out "the alcohol Gene" and not only claim it exists, but claims they can tell when it is "activated".
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
AA is a cultic religion. They adopt dogma, not facts. They present only anecedotal evidence and ignore all facts and figures, science and reason.
AA claims critics are either drunks or dry drunks. Where have we heard this Dogshit before people?
BULLSHIT on AA. AA spawned the entire seed/Straight/kids line of abusive care. To tell us that have been subjected to AA gone loco that we know nothing about it is typical. Many of us have taken the time to really look into what is going on there Mrs. RN.
Believe your religion all you want, but if you come here making erroneous claims, be ready to chew on them for a while, because we are going to feed them right back to you.
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Ginger,
Thanks! I have been quit for over a week now. ITs been harder than anything Ive ever had to do, but its proving to be worth it, being that I dont run out of breath walking up the stairs anymore! :lol:
Anyway, I agree. Thats what I just wrote to Cayo. There are alot of religious zealots out there who just cant let others be. As long as someone religious lets me believe what I want and respects my choices I will get along great wiht them. Like you said, theyre not bad people, just caought up in beliefs that get in the way of them being understanding and tolerant of others. And like I said to Cayo, I dotn think AA is the only way. I just feel like along with other options, if it works for a person, good for them. As long as they are respectful of others. And the people that responded on this forum are NOT being respectful of your all choices not to go to AA or believe the doctrerin. They even go as far as to say you just dotn want to quit. Did you ever think maybe Cayo and Ginger and Bandit dont NEED to quit? You know as well as I do that only you can believe you are an alcoholic. And it is a personal thing. If they dont believe they are alcoholics, then that is perfectly fine. They are entitled to believe what they want abou their lives. You are totally out of line to assume anything about them. Well, back to you Ginger. I just think that just because some people in AA are assclowns, dosnt mean they all are. Like I was saying before, my good friends are from AA. I get alot out of our friendship and they never try to get me to go back to AA. They respect my ability to not drink and they repsect my beliefs about pot. They help me alot in my life. Wether AA has anything to do with that or not is one thing, but I do know they would not be the same people if they were still drinking. Quitting has helped them alot and AA just did it for them, and therefore I am happy AA is around, if just for that. (that was a really long sentance!) But I agree wiht you.
Amanda
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On 2005-05-18 08:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Cayo,
I hope you are refering to the other Anonymous posts and not mine. I dotn agree with them. I think AA can be good for some and not others.
Amanda"
Uhh, Sure. Some people, the weak minded and unreasonable, need to grasp onto a dogmatic relgious belief system in order to make it thru this mine-ridden war we call life.
Now, I don't fault them, and some of them are even okay to deal with once subdued with the mind stopping AA dogma, as long as you don't discuss it with them critically.
These people are to be pitied in a sense. They are so weak they can't overcome basic addiction and compulsion issues. Therefore, They have to subscribe to an invented belief system, declare themselves powerless over a substance (when in reality, they are powerless over their own compulsive nature), and then practice said religion "one day at a time".
So sad for them. Meanwhile, back in reality, AA has a zero percent success rate.
No AA devotee wants to address this elephant in the room but instead wishes to avert the conversation to the AA "success" stories.
JUST LIKE the Seed/Straight dogma!
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See, but Greg, dont you see you are being just as intolerant as they are? Dont sink to that level. Not all AA people are bad evil bastards from hell. Let the ones that have it right be. Like Ive said AA is different all over the country. Not all AA people are intolerant judgemental jerks. Soem uinderstand that the Big book is not all its cracked up to be and adjust AA to meet their needs. NOt all of it is crap. Just the stuff that sys it is the only way. It is a way, yes, but as with anything in life, what works for one person most likely wony work for another.
Amanda
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Well, Cayo, Im sorry you feel that way. I suppose since you are so determined to see the evil in it and the people in it as evil, then there is no point going on about it. And AA is no where near as bad as a program. Come now. Hope you can at least see that. I just wish you could meet some of the openminded people I know in AA, and perhaps you might change your perspective. But alas, that wont happen, so I suppose theres no need to argue.
Amanda
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On 2005-05-18 09:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"See, but Greg, dont you see you are being just as intolerant as they are? Dont sink to that level. Not all AA people are bad evil bastards from hell. Let the ones that have it right be. Like Ive said AA is different all over the country. Not all AA people are intolerant judgemental jerks. Soem uinderstand that the Big book is not all its cracked up to be and adjust AA to meet their needs. NOt all of it is crap. Just the stuff that sys it is the only way. It is a way, yes, but as with anything in life, what works for one person most likely wony work for another.
Amanda"
Amanda, I'm not saying that all AA people are bad, not by a long shot. I AM saying that AA ITSELF is pure religious dogma that serves no real purpose other than to churn out more and more converts....IN MY OPINION.
I appreciate what you've posted and no, my response you're speaking of was not intended towards you. I do think that it may serve you well to try and find some other circles to travel in. I'm not saying you should stop seeing your AA buds, but why limit yourself? You seem like a relatively intelligent, kind spirited girl. There is so much more out there and to see people living in a world that hasn't been shaped and molded by dogma can be quite enlightening. AA people aren't the only ones who can understand what you're going through and someone without all that baggage may just offer you a perspective you hadn't thought of before.Religions are all alike; founded upon fables and mythologies.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
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On 2005-05-18 09:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"See, but Greg, dont you see you are being just as intolerant as they are? Dont sink to that level. Not all AA people are bad evil bastards from hell. Let the ones that have it right be.
WRONG!
I never said that. Yes, this is a religion thread!!!!
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On 2005-05-18 09:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well, Cayo, Im sorry you feel that way. I suppose since you are so determined to see the evil in it and the people in it as evil, then there is no point going on about it. And AA is no where near as bad as a program. Come now. Hope you can at least see that. I just wish you could meet some of the openminded people I know in AA, and perhaps you might change your perspective. But alas, that wont happen, so I suppose theres no need to argue.
Amanda"
Of course I'm not saying that AA is worse than the programs. Don't be silly. I do agree with FKA's assessment though wholeheartedly...
Posted: 2005-05-17 17:10:00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I feel that 12-step programs were a continuation of the damaging beliefs that i was taught at the Re-education Gulag to which I was sent. They wasted five years of my life. There is no one to be mad at about this except myself, I guess. Sure it wasn't as extreme as Straight, but the confounding beliefs were all there, what a bad person everyone was, inherently "full of shit". People were always being accused, although often in a roundabout way, of "sitting in their shit", "blaming", or "self-pity". To people in real pain, who might well have been drinking and/or going to meetings in order to have some relief from the pain of abusive relationships past and present, painful life situations and so on, this is very definitely extremely abusive.
That may give me a slightly more vehement objection to AA, but not any less valid.Revelation indeed had no weight with me.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
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Cayo,
thanks fo the kindness. Actually the funny thing is, either my friends are in AA or they are pot heads. And they are all really cool people. I like all kinds of different people and am not opposed to meeting people not in AA. It just happens that the friends that have stuck by me and give the best advice and dont flake out on me and show up when I need them are in AA. My pot head buddies and I have fun too and get along great. But they flake on me alot and when I have a problem, the main response is "sorry dude. that sucks." Thats nice and all, but sometimes I need more than that. I am going back to school this next semester and hopefully will meet soem likeminded people. I just mostly have a hard time meeting those poeople. Like for instance, I like to go to shows and concerts. I like hippie music and also tool. I like violent movies sometimes, but Im opposed to guns. Im pretty liberal in my thinking, but still uphold certain values, like not cursing around kids or being negative around kids. I believe smoking pot is ok, but not around kids. See, most the people I meet have like mindedness to me, but dont have the same values as me and that makes it hard. Sorry to ramble, Ive just found that the AA friends I have respect my values and will, for instance, not cuss around my child. They may slip up, but are quick to apologize and correct themselves. My other buddies will try, but most of them just dont care and do it anyway.
Amanda
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On 2005-05-18 09:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
And AA is no where near as bad as a program. Come now. Hope you can at least see that. I just wish you could meet some of the openminded people I know in AA, and perhaps you might change your perspective. But alas, that wont happen, so I suppose theres no need to argue.
Amanda
Well here, I've gott stick up for my bud. For one, she just described her longstanding friendship w/ a man who became one of those tolerant, open minded AA adherents. I think we all know that those people exist. But you don't hear from them much (cause they're anonymous and not evangelical!)
But you just don't know the hell that some of us have been through w/ militant steppers in our families.
If you believed as RN does and you had a young relative who refused AA, what would you do? Would you try to force them into a program if they were a minor? Would you seek to remove their children if they had any? After all, you're convinced that they're a danger to themselves and others by virtue of their alcoholism and denial of it.
Militant steppers can become as dangerous as militant Baptists or militant Islamists or any other militants. Worse still, when a significant number of legislators and non elected policy makers and enforcers are militant steppers, they wind up making some horrible laws and policies. It's not hard to find the horror stories, either. There's a guy currently suing and Orlando hospital and the sheriffs' dept for strapping him down and hitting him up a couple of times w/ a stun gun in order to coerce a urin sample. Plenty of people have had their kids taken into foster care to force program attendance. Once they've got a sponsor, that sponsor has the power to give or to withold the certification that they need to prevent permanent loss of custody and adoption. Or, even w/o kids, they can call the PO and have the person arrested if they're non-compliant.
That's where I have a major problem w/ stepcraft. I'm fine w/ voluntary involvement and belief. I don't accept the dogma and, if you ask me, I'll tell you why and we can discuss it. But I'm not advocating for outlawing AA meetings or anything. To each his own and more power to ya! I draw the line at coercion; whether public or private.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard was not what I meant.
---Richard Nixon
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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I hope you go back and read through some of these links. They really are very informative.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =10#103189 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9606&forum=9&start=10#103189)
Start with this one.. http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcece ... a_cult.htm (http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/a/aa/is_aa_cult.htm)Redemption: Deliverance of sinners from the penalty of their sins through the murder of their deity against whom they sinned.
--Ambrose Bierce
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It is a big world Amanda that consists of much more than just Potheads and AA devotees.
Good luck expanding your horizons.
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Amanda, seriously...broaden your horizons a little. I don't mean that in any disrespectful way at all. It just seems that you're in an 'either/or' situation with your friends. Black or white. There are people out there who don't smoke or drink but are not in any way involved with AA. There are also plenty out there who DO smoke or drink that are NOT the way you've described your stoner buds. The black/white issue is another one that, IMO, directly relates to AA. In there it really is either black or white and if you've really been indoctrinated in the stepcraft culture it kind of seeps into other aspects of your life. At least that's been my experience with it.
Zany fun. It was a first - even Ben Franklin never arranged for something like this, and he was full of himself.
John Gorenfeld
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On 2005-05-18 09:29:00, Antigen wrote:
But you just don't know the hell that some of us have been through w/ militant steppers in our families.
<
Amen to that!! :nworthy: :nworthy: Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
Andrew Tannenbaum
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Ginger,
I think I can understand the militant stepper thing more than you realize.
My family is full of militant religious zealots. My Stepmom and Dad and both militant presbyterians and feel that anyone not in their church is wrong and not worthy of them. We kids (except my brother George and Matt) can see the hypocracy and never fell for it for long. So I understand what its like. For sure.
If I knew someone in need of help, I would do the best I could, but woudl never force anyone to do anything. Now if it were my own child, then might be different. I woudl try anyway, to get her as much help as needed. Therapy, AA is she wanted to try it, and whatever else seemed to work for her. But even AA says if you dotn want to be there, then it wont work, so trying ot force someone to go is not going to be effective.
Now, my Mom can tell oyu how hard it is to grow up with an alcoholic as a parent. My husband can too. It screws that child up. So taking the children away might not be so bad. Sometimes, especially if you are getting beat or verbally abused by an alcoholic parent, taking that parent away to get help may not be so bad. My husband was forced to go to drug therapy when he got a DUID. He didnt agree wiht any of it. Didnt care ofr meetings. But he went to get it over with and found the therapy part somewhat helpful. And he learned alot about what drinking too much can do to your body. And how drunk driving affects us all, in terms of the cost of hospitals, court stuff, ect. It was intersting for him. SO it wasnt so bad. I agree though that mostly if a person does not want to get sober, AA or anything else really wont help.
Amanda
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I realize that Cayo. And trust me, I have been open to meeting new people. I just havnt found people that fit my style. Most of the time, it just has to do with the fact that if I feel uncomfortable around a person, I try to shut it off before it gets further along. And negative people, wether in AA, pot head, whatever, I just dotn feel comfortable around. So since many people have negative self defeatign attitudes, its hard to find people I can be really good buddies with. I have fairly high standards for my friends. I have few really great friends. I have alot of aquaintence like friends. But I am ok with that for the most part. Because the really good friends I have you wouldnt know they were in AA if you met them. They dont talk about it. All you would think is they are sober cool people.
And Greg, I am always open to new people. But I simply cannot pretend to like someone if I dont. I dont care if they fit into a category or not. It just happens that alot of my friends are either pot heads or AA people. Some are neither. I just happen to get along more with them. And I feel thats ok. When I meet someone who isnt in either of those categories and I get along great with them, i will be ok wiht that too.
Amanda
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On 2005-05-18 09:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I realize that Cayo. And trust me, I have been open to meeting new people. I just havnt found people that fit my style.
Keep trying, you will! Good luck in school! I'm envious, that's one of the things that I really feel cheated out of in regards to the program I was in. Have a wonderful time, learn lots, meet some new people, enjoy your life adn, as a friend is fond of saying...have lots of good fun!! :wave: :tup: Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.
--George Washington, Revolutionary War General and U.S. President
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On 2005-05-18 09:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ginger,
I think I can understand the militant stepper thing more than you realize.
A-Men to that! LOL. Militant Presbys? You mean like Ruesses Rushdoony(sp?) followers? My little Presby church had a run in w/ some of those. My sister wound up eloping w/ a much older deacon who was into that. That's how I remember the name; he gave me a kitten and I named it Ruesses. Coolest cat I ever had. He was taken away from his mother too soon. Had to bottle feed him and raised him w/ a puppy. So he acted like a dog. Never did learn to properly clean himself, so always had skin probs. But great personality!
If I knew someone in need of help, I
No, I don't think you would lose your grip in the way I described. I'm talking about someone who firmly believes that anyone who drinks is an alcoholic and rejecting the one and only remedy for alcoholism is tantamount to suicide.
And, btw, my brother had a similar experience to what you describe about your husband. He checked himself into adult RTC voluntarily. Actually waited a number of weeks for an open bed in a 6 week program. They did force stepcraft, but they also had a pretty diverse library, and that's what he talked about having been so helpful.
He also quit AA after a few months and had the most productive and seemingly happiest dozen or so years just working and smoking copious amounts of pot. Now he's back in AA and we don't speak. I remember when he did his amends thing w/ me. He emailed me something to the effect of "I'm sorry you got all bent out of shape over my attempt to help you...." Long story. But suffice it to say that it was more of an indictment than an apology. Necessity never made a good bargain
--Benjamin Franklin Apr. 1734
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I think Amanda just has AA friends because AA is where she was hanging out at the time. I'm not worried about this kid at all. She's got a lot more on the ball, imo, than a whole lot of us did in similar circumstances!
Real criminals walk free every day to rape, rob, and murder again because the courts are so busy finding consensual criminals guilty of hurting no one but themselves.... To free cells for consensual criminals, real criminals are put on the street every day.
Peter McWilliams
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I agree Ginger, she seems open to new ideas and ways of thinking.
GOOD LUCK AMANDA.
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Thanks All for the encouragement and the kindness.
Ginger,
I was just thinking at work about how I was in AA at first. One thing that I felt really inhibited me about the program and AA was I felt afraid of the people who were "bad" for me. Like I had this cousin Rich who I got into some trouble with before i went to the program and therefore he was on my bad friends list. He is one of the best kids ever. He doesnt overdo it with smoking and drinking, is getting his degree in math, and is just all around nice. But because of the program, I was wary of him when I first came home. I went to his room one day and found old paraphanalia and old baggies with seeds and stems and stuff and told his parents. Now I would never do such a thing and he and I have discussed it over and over. I feel terrible for it. That is just one example of how AA can kind of skew your perceptions a bit. Its like anyone who might possible hurt your sobriety you stay away from. I remember when I came home from the program, I saw an old friend from High school that I got high with alot. I actually walked across the busy street to aviod talking to her I was so afraid of relapse. It is really ridiculous. And I remember my good friend Bone didnt talk to me for a while when I relapsed after 3 years in AA. But she apologized about it later and we are really better friends now. So yes, AA can instil a fear of people who are not bad for you just because they can drink and smoke responsibly. But for the most part, I feel the peopel I know still from AA are understanding of me and my choices and we let eachother be about it. ANd I am happy they are happy.
Amanda
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Kudos, Amanda! Takes some people years to get that figured out.
Janis, Jimi, Gery, Timothy... Did you HAVE to get so close to the edge to get a really good view?
-- Anonymous
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I've been reading all of these posts with great interest. First of all - Antigen - if there are say 10 million alcoholics going to AA and it helps 10% - well that's one-million potential drunks off the road and living healthier lives.
Is there a better program? Obviously this is the program that is recommended the most. Probably a lot of those people with their slips to sign aren't there because they want to be - they are there because of a court order. No one can force anyone to change. People will only change when they have a real desire.
AA is a program that does help people stay sober. Of course no one can do anything unless they want it enough. AA probably provides the support that some people need. It's certainly not an abusive program. There are no punishment cells - no take downs - no abuse. No one is going to force you to do anything.
I think it's a worthwhile program -but it's not for everyone - particularly those who have no religious beliefs. [ This Message was edited by: cherish wisdom on 2005-05-18 20:59 ]
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Cayo,
Just a quick question. Did you not get to finish school in your program? I remember Ginger talking about how in Straight, you didtn get to go to read let alone go to school for the first three months. Are you not able to go to school?
Amanda
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I would like to respond to the post by Cherish. Hey there. I just wanted to say that I can look at this all from both perspectives. I have seen how AA works to help people I know stay sober. However, I can see it from Cayo, ginger, and Gregs side to in that, AA is a program that, like religion, says in order for it to work, you must follow everything to a tee. However, I feel that is off. It was, like religious docterin, written by men for one, and therefore is a bit biased towards men. Have you read the chapter "to the wives"? It was also written by a man from the 50s. Being a woman, I find it hard to follow a book written for men. I like some of the principles and stuff abd wouldnt just no tlike it because it is mostly for men. But it is biased in saying it is the only way. When I was a hard core Christian, it was VERY easy for me to accept AA. It is mostly based on a higher power, although the higher power does not have to be God or any religious symbol. In terms of the Big Book, im not a fan. In terms of alot of people Ive met in meetings I am a fan. It's like a big support group. But alot of AA people, like Ginger and others have said, are freaking Nazis about AA, and anyone with an open mind and a brain would be turned off by that. AA, like everything else, is in need of revision. It is 50 some odd years since it was written. Times have changed. Society has changed alot. Therefore, AA should change to fit the needs of todays alcoholic. And I agree with Greg Cayo and others about how we need moderation management integrated into our society. I used to think I couldnt drink ever. I do drink ecessivly when I drink. I just dont do it though. Havnt gone to a meeting in about two years and I am ok with that. I can have a glass of wine occasionally and that is ok with me too. I dont feel guilty anymore. Also, I quit smoking. I just did it. I took all these people on the forums advice and just quit. No therapy, no support groups, not a piece of nicotine gum or one patch. It is the most addictive substance on earth. I used to limit myself by saying I was addicited and therefore needed some extreme way of quitting. That is not always the case. I no longer beleive everything I hear and now feel alot more empowered. Not to say I am not glad AA is out there for those who can swallow the docterine and can use it to their advantage. I am glad it is there for them. I wouldnt take it away from them just because I dont feel it works for me. But, I also think they could stand to see other things that work to to see AA is not the only way. And it is recomended to people so much because the system really dosnt think there are other options. And if those people try it and like it good for them I say. But if they try it and dont, I beleive they are entitled to try something different with out being told they are in denial about their disease.
Amanda
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Amanda- I know what you mean, about "bad friends"...when I was at Provo Canyon, my parents were allowed to make a list of people I was not allowed to receive mail from. A "restricted list".
The night before I left to go there, I went through my phone book, and made up names and "pager" numbers, because my mother was convinced that anyone who had a pager was a "drug dealer", so I wanted to just see how ignorant she really was. Of course, all of these faux names and numbers appeared on my "restricted list".
But there was one girl who was on the "restricted list", whom I was real good friends with. I could never figure out why she was "restricted", and my mother would never give me a straight answer.
When I was a older, and out of the program, I knew this one guy, he was lots of fun. His parents shipped him off to some short-term RTC. I was so excited when he came back, and he was like "I don't hang out with anyone who 'uses'". I was like, "what do you mean? are you saying that if I smoke pot once in awhile that you cannot hang out with me? even if i don't do it with you??". That was in fact what he meant. I thought that was so weird. I don't really know whatever happened to him, but hopefully he was able to find a more balanced perspective.
However, like I said before, like having one friend in prison is understandable, but if *all* my friends were in prison, that would be kind of strange. You've got to set high standards for yourself, because no one else can do that for you. I find that diversity and variety are essential. Just keep that in mind, from someone a few years older than yourself. Good luck.
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I can kindof see how the "all my friends are in AA" thing could happen and the person be alright.
I'm very introverted, to the point of almost being reclusive. I like people, they just overwhelm me to the point that I'm not really not having fun in quantities and doses that other people are really happy with.
I tend to go through phases where all or almost all the people I hang with are from the same activity--whatever I'm most into then. Right now, it's martial arts. Just about all the people I hang with regularly, in person, are from the local dojo. Mostly because that's where I spend a lot of my out of the house time. Writing is a pretty solitary job.
What would seem unlivable or unhealthy to an extrovert is normal for me. An extrovert's comfort zone is that they'd just be miserably unhappy without a certain number and range of people all around for a certain percentage of their day each day. An introvert's comfort zone is still to need people---just fewer and less, and to be overwhelmed to the point of not having a positive experience anymore if faced with too much and too many.
Different people have different people needs. I don't know if any specific person is more introverted or extroverted unless I personally know them, but I can certainly see someone having just about all their friends, at any given time, be from the activity where they're spending the biggest chunk their free time.
And I can see that being completely healthy within the context of the person's personality.
Just takes us back to that whole "people are different" thing.
Timoclea
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CW, the problem is that isn't the case. Statistics show that AA has a zero percent success rate. Also, the government sentences people to AA, a religious organization, in violation of our constitution. I fully support any individuals right to join any club or group, even offensive ones, but when the government starts forcing this dogma on its citizens, something is amiss.
The whole thing stinks.
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Greg - I made the comment because Antigen indicated first that there was a 5% success rate and then a 10% success rate. I think it's reasonable to conclude that there are some success stories - AA probably helps some people stay away from alcohol. I do agree that it probably needs to be updated for the 21st centruy. I think you're wrong about it having only a 0% success rate and I challenge you to show me some professional research that demonstrates that not one person who goes to AA meetings stays sober for at least - say 5 years. I say five years because cancer is considered cured if the person remains cancer free for five years. You'd have to show how many of those going to AA meetings have been sober for one year up to 20 years. At what point would you consider AA to be successful? It sounds like you are bitter about it because perhaps a court ordered you to attend meetings. I can understand that. AA has helped many people enjoy years of sobriety. They may go off the wagon from time to time - but that doesn't mean the program isn't working. Many people go back and forth because they are human. It's just like any problem one desires to overcome. Take overeating for example.
Some people diet and loose a lot of weight. Soon they go back to their old ways and the pounds come back on. Others have gastric bypass - and even with such a drastic "cure" for obesity - some of them learn how to cheat and gain their weight back again.
AA is nothing more than a support group like weight watchers. It helps people stay away from alchol just like weight wathchers helps people stay away from too much food. Both have success rates of 5% to 10%. Having support from people in the same boat is very helpful for some. It's not something that should eraticated from society just because some feel it a cult and so forth. As far as it being religion based - that's BS. The "higher power" in AA can be anything. One man at an AA meeting said his higher power was his girlfriend. They do not suggest who that higher power need to be. It can be Budah, God, Jesus, your dog, your friend, -
I think there's research out there to prove anyone's point. There is definitely research that shows how prayer helps people recover from diseases. I think this is why the higher powere was added to AA. Why don't you construct a better program for those who need to overcome alcoholism? This 12 step program seems to help people in many ways. It's also used for over-eaters, smokers and sex addictis. It seems like you just look at your own one-sided research to prove your point. That's not being very objective..... Show me your researh and I'll show you research to the contrary. We could go on and on until in an endless circle and spend a lifetime doing it. :rofl: [ This Message was edited by: cherish wisdom on 2005-05-19 08:40 ]
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Wouldn't you rather be "sentenced" to AA than to jail or furlough? One year of hour long AA meetings three times a week or a year of being locked in a 8X8 foot jail cell 20 hours per day. HMMMMMMMMM I think I'd take the three hours of AA meeting per week...... :lol:
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Cherish Wisdom, your conclusion fails to take into account people that would quit anyway. Read the link above, that may help you.
For instance, if a disease has a 25 % recovery rate by itself, and then a pill comes onto the market, and 25% of the people that take it go into recovery, what is the success ratio of the pill? It is zero. Apply that logic to AA , and we are on the same page.
The next anon post...you just haven't given this any thought in the context of seperation of church and state, have you?
When the government threatens you with either inprisonment or a religious service, the government is guilty of coercion and violates our constitution. Which you would choose is meaningless in this discussion.
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On 2005-05-19 08:20:00, cherish wisdom wrote:
"Greg - I made the comment because Antigen indicated first that there was a 5% success rate and then a 10% success rate. I think it's reasonable to conclude that there are some success stories - AA probably helps some people stay away from alcohol. I do agree that it probably needs to be updated for the 21st centruy. I think you're wrong about it having only a 0% success rate and I challenge you to show me some professional research that demonstrates that not one person who goes to AA meetings stays sober for at least - say 5 years. I say five years because cancer is considered cured if the person remains cancer free for five years. You'd have to show how many of those going to AA meetings have been sober for one year up to 20 years. At what point would you consider AA to be successful? It sounds like you are bitter about it because perhaps a court ordered you to attend meetings. I can understand that. AA has helped many people enjoy years of sobriety. They may go off the wagon from time to time - but that doesn't mean the program isn't working. Many people go back and forth because they are human. It's just like any problem one desires to overcome. Take overeating for example.
Some people diet and loose a lot of weight. Soon they go back to their old ways and the pounds come back on. Others have gastric bypass - and even with such a drastic "cure" for obesity - some of them learn how to cheat and gain their weight back again.
AA is nothing more than a support group like weight watchers. It helps people stay away from alchol just like weight wathchers helps people stay away from too much food. Both have success rates of 5% to 10%. Having support from people in the same boat is very helpful for some. It's not something that should eraticated from society just because some feel it a cult and so forth. As far as it being religion based - that's BS. The "higher power" in AA can be anything. One man at an AA meeting said his higher power was his girlfriend. They do not suggest who that higher power need to be. It can be Budah, God, Jesus, your dog, your friend, -
I think there's research out there to prove anyone's point. There is definitely research that shows how prayer helps people recover from diseases. I think this is why the higher powere was added to AA. Why don't you construct a better program for those who need to overcome alcoholism? This 12 step program seems to help people in many ways. It's also used for over-eaters, smokers and sex addictis. It seems like you just look at your own one-sided research to prove your point. That's not being very objective..... Show me your researh and I'll show you research to the contrary. We could go on and on until in an endless circle and spend a lifetime doing it. :rofl: [ This Message was edited by: cherish wisdom on 2005-05-19 08:40 ]"
I could answer this point by point but it would be meaningless. You have too many erroneous conclusions. For instance, that a higher power was added to AA because of prayer studies. That is false..the prayers were part of the program from the beginning, and further, these "experiments" with prayer have all been done by "christian researchers" and have failed to repeat by independent researchers with proper controls. Therefore, the studies are moot. A scientific hypothesis must be repeatable and peer reviewed. These studies have FLUNKED MISERABLY on both accounts.
CW, you are free to believe in AA all you want, but you need to think thru some of these responses.
And no, I was never sentenced to AA in my life. I am not an alcholic and don't drink very much at all.
But thanks for the erroneous conclusion!
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On 2005-05-19 08:20:00, cherish wisdom wrote:
I think you're wrong about it having only a 0% success rate and I challenge you to show me some professional research that demonstrates that not one person who goes to AA meetings stays sober for at least - say 5 years.
I get the 5 - 10 percent figure from AA's own claims. And the 0% success comes from the fact that problem drinkers who forgoe formal intervention of any kind also quit or practice moderation at about the same rate.
That some people attribute their success to their AA attendance is fine by me. I only have a problem w/ people in positions of authority over others believing (and acting on the belief) that AA is the only way to quit drinking and it has a huge success rate.
It's not something that should eraticated from society just because some feel it a cult and so forth. As far as it being religion based - that's BS.
Not according to the courts. For the purposes of the establishment clause (which is the aspect of the thing Ii'm interested in) AA has been identified as a religion by every court I know of that's considered the question.
That's the difference. No one here is talking about erradicating AA or outlawing it. We're just talking about not forcing anyone to participate w/o informed consent. On the other side of the debate dias stand an often unreasonable mob of steppers who do seem to think people should be forced to participate in their religion and who tend to regard any critical discussion of that religion as a threat to their very existance.
I think there's research out there to prove anyone's point. There is definitely research that shows how prayer helps people recover from diseases. I think this is why the higher powere was added to AA.
Added? Are you joking? AA split off from the Oxford group. It started out as a radical religious cult and then added the 12 steps (why 12? Cause there were 12 apostles!)
Whenever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force.
Thomas Jefferson: Kentucky Resolutions, 1798
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On 2005-05-19 08:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Wouldn't you rather be "sentenced" to AA than to jail or furlough? One year of hour long AA meetings three times a week or a year of being locked in a 8X8 foot jail cell 20 hours per day. HMMMMMMMMM I think I'd take the three hours of AA meeting per week...... :lol: "
You would think so, but it's not really that simple. Those court orders often include sponsor requirements and snitch clauses. If the sponsor deems you noncompliant (for refusing to agree that one is afflicted w/ the genetic disease of alcoholism, for example) you can very well land up doing the time, and then some.
Here's a nice site on the topic:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-Step_Coercion_Watch/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-Step_Coercion_Watch/)Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception."
Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger, 1916, Ch.9
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On 2005-05-19 08:20:00, cherish wisdom wrote:
"Greg - I made the comment because Antigen indicated first that there was a 5% success rate and then a 10% success rate. I think it's reasonable to conclude that there are some success stories -
http://orange-papers.org/orange-effecti ... ard_Mental (http://orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#Harvard_Mental) The Harvard Mental Health Letter, from The Harvard Medical School, stated quite plainly:
On their own
There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.
Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction -- Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
(See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)
AA has helped many people enjoy years of sobriety.
http://orange-papers.org/orange-propaga ... orrelation (http://orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#correlation) Confusion of Correlation and Causation
This is simple and straight-forward: just because two things tend to happen together does not prove that one thing causes the other. Likewise, people also often confuse association and causation, or causation and coincidence. The rooster's crowing doesn't really make the sun rise.
Young women going to church and getting married does not really cause them to get pregnant and have babies, even though there does seem to be a strong correlation there.
Some people who tout "spiritual healing" routinely cite studies that show that people who have positive, cheerful attitudes recover from illnesses and surgeries faster than people who have glum, dour attitudes. They then assume that this is proof of the efficacy of "spiritual healing".
They overlook the obvious fact that those cheerful attitudes may well be caused by the the patients' rapid recovery. People who are rapidly recovering are almost always much more cheerful than patients who are sick unto death and dying.
And they overlook the fact that those two factors may correlate -- they may happen together: Rapid recovery causes cheerful moods, which cause more rapid healing, which causes more cheerfulness, and so on... Just the act of relaxing and being cheerful increases blood flow through the body, which promotes healing and improves the functioning of the immune system. That is simple medicine, not "the power of spiritual healing".
They also ignore the fact that any apparent link between recovery and something else, anything else, may be pure coincidence. In any large group of sick people, some will recover and some won't. There isn't necessarily any link between "spiritual attitudes" and people recovering, but the people who wish to believe there is will concentrate their attention on just the recovering "spiritual" people, and ignore everything else. That, in turn, becomes an example of "observational selection", seeing what you want to see, and ignoring the rest.
And when the investigator has an agenda -- a desired outcome -- he can be also be fooled by observational bias as well -- just tending to see what he wishes to see. The measure of which patients are cheerful, and how cheerful, is a subjective measurement -- it relies entirely on the judgement of the investigator. It is all too easy to rate the recovering patients as very cheerful and the non-recovering patients as very glum when that is what the investigator wishes to see.
Alcoholics Anonymous has plenty of examples of confusion of causation and correlation. The most obvious ones are:
Assuming that attending A.A. meetings makes people quit drinking.
Assuming that doing the Twelve Steps makes people quit drinking.
Assuming that praying makes people quit drinking.
Assuming that doing the Twelve Steps makes people more "spiritual", or more moral. (And of course, this item will be loaded with observational bias -- how do you impartially judge just how much more "spiritual" somebody is after doing the Twelve Steps for three months? And how do you impartially distinguish between "spirituality" and superstition?)
A common use of this propaganda technique is to do polls or surveys of A.A. members, asking them about their drinking habits, and then "discover" that they drink less than some other group of people, perhaps a group of guys at the local bar. Then the "researcher" declares that there is "an association between AA attendance and abstinence from alcohol/drug use", and he concludes that
"Weekly or more frequent attendance at 12-Step programs may be effective in maintaining long-term drug and alcohol abstinence. Treatment providers should encourage and assist their clients in 12-Step participation."
"12-Step programs help maintain abstinence", R Fiorentine, The Brown University Digest of Addiction Theory and Application, Sept 1999, v18 i9 p1
What the "researcher" won't tell you is that if you repeat the study, comparing the people found at the local Baskin Robbins ice cream parlor to the guys at the local bar, you can "prove" that eating ice cream reduces alcohol consumption.
The logical conclusion is, of course:
"Weekly or more frequent attendance at Baskin Robbins may be effective in maintaining long-term drug and alcohol abstinence. Treatment providers should encourage and assist their clients in Baskin Robbins ice cream socials participation."
AA is nothing more than a support group like weight watchers. It helps people stay away from alchol just like weight wathchers helps people stay away from too much food.
AA and WW are different in my opinion. I've never heard anyone preaching that WW is the only way to lose weight, that you'll die without WW etc. etc.
Both have success rates of 5% to 10%.
No different than spontaneous remission
Having support from people in the same boat is very helpful for some.
Having people around you that support your efforts to stop drinking is very different than immersing yourself into the anti-drinking culture.
It's not something that should eraticated from society just because some feel it a cult and so forth.
I don't think any of us have said that. We HAVE said that people being court ordered to a religion
As far as it being religion based - that's BS.
No, its really not. http://orange-papers.org/orange-religiousroots.html (http://orange-papers.org/orange-religiousroots.html) http://orange-papers.org/orange-religio ... tml#FrankB (http://orange-papers.org/orange-religiousroots.html#FrankB)
Its absolutely a religion and has been defined as such by the courts time and time again.
My initial response was to sue her for defamation of character, but then I realized that I had no character.
-- Charles Barkley, on hearing Tonya Harding proclaim herself "the Charles Barkley of figure skating"
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I think I'll go spike the coffee at an AA meeting with Kahlua. Relapses on the house! ::cheers::
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Dear Bandit,
Certainly. And I agree with you. Not all my friends are in AA. Wheat I mean is the friends I talk to alot and rely on the most happen to be in AA. I have friends who arent. And I hopefully will someday meet someone who dosnt smoke (cigarettes) or drink and who has similar interests to me. But till then, I am ok with the ones I know.
amanda
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Actually CW, I remember in the BillW movie, they had the Christian point of view till people stopped wanting to go, so they made up the higher power thing so more people felt comfortable in AA.
Amanda
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On 2005-05-18 21:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Cayo,
Just a quick question. Did you not get to finish school in your program? I remember Ginger talking about how in Straight, you didtn get to go to read let alone go to school for the first three months. Are you not able to go to school?
Amanda"
Sorry Amanda, I missed this earlier. I was in Straight Inc. in the early 80s. There were 5 phases we had to complete before graduating. School was not allowed until 3rd phase but even then subject to phase setbacks etc. I was on 1st phase for 8 months the first time (more after I got started over after 4th) and I can't remember how long I was on 2nd but it was a while. When all was said and done I had lost the last two years of high school. I got my GED, but I would have given ANYTHING to have had the normal kind of educational opportunities I should have had.
Its been very interesting reading your posts. This is how true change comes about. One person at a time thinking for themselves. I hope you'll stick around and continue to post!!!!When I started as a federal narcotics agent, the budget that we were working with, it was less than $5 million a year, and there was only 125 agents for the entire world to work the narcotic trade that we were fighting in those days. Times have changed. The gluttony has grown.
--Nick Navarro, former Broward, FL Sherrif
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Hi, I am a frequent visitor to this forum, and though I don't post much, I'd really like to say that you guys are awesome!! I really appreciate all the educated and/or thought-provoking information that is here at fornits.
I have to say for starters, that AA is not a program that I adhere to, nor am I completely against it. But rather I wanted to share a more personal experience that remains a very happy memory. My father was diagnosed with Bladder Cancer about 14 years ago, and at the time, he and my mom were both heavy drinkers and smokers. My dad decided to quit drinking and smoking for that reason, as well as my mom quit drinking too. Well, Dad started going to AA meetings while Mom quit cold-turkey. We are not religious, so I believe that Dad found some support there, and stuck with it. After having his bladder removed, and surviving the Chemo and radiation, life continued on. Dad still had most of the same friends who all spent their spare time at the bar, and when they'd come to visit, Dad would have a nice cold beer for them along with an ashtray.
Well, one evening I went with Dad to an open meeting just because Mom was out of town, and I'm Daddy's little girl so I did want to spend time with him. It was held at the hospital auditorium, and must have been filled to the brim with over a hundred people. Some I assumed were faithful attendees, and some looked as if they just needed to get in out of the cold. After the main speaker shared her story, the "director" let people raise their hands to share their anniversaries of how long they'd been sober. I heard things like "6 days", and from across the large room "one month", and from many others who all got applauded. Then Dad raised his hand, which I didn't expect, stood up and said "Ten Years". I don't know how many people heard him, or even cared, but I was so proud of him. I had not thought really about his sobriety or his struggle getting there, and here we were, among a hundred strangers, and I felt his strength. As modest a man as he was, I could tell he was proud of himself too.
Dad passed away last July from Colon Cancer, but had continued to go to his meeting on Tuesday nights until then. At the funeral, a woman I did not know told me plainly that my dad had helped her stay sober many times when she needed someone to talk to. Isn't that just awesome? Maybe Dad was weak in the face of Beer, but that's Okay because he did what he could to prolong his own life, and didn't push anything on anyone in the process.
Just wanted to share that.
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When I started as a federal narcotics agent, the budget that we were working with, it was less than $5 million a year, and there was only 125 agents for the entire world to work the narcotic trade that we were fighting in those days. Times have changed. The gluttony has grown.
--Nick Navarro, former Broward, FL Sherrif
I wonder if he realizes what he said. :lol: When we contemplate the whole globe as one great dewdrop, striped and dotted with continents and islands, flying through space with all other stars all singing and shining together as one, the whole universe appears as an infinite storm of beauty.
-- John Muir
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Sarah thanks for posting that. I'm sorry your dad's gone but glad he had peace in his life. There are some great people I met at meetings, no doubt. There are two that I can think of that my husband and I occasionally see down at the boatyard bar. They're old salts and two of the most unbelievable characters I've ever met. They go to their meetings every once in a while for the friendships but you'll never hear them preaching anything to anybody. You will hear them telling some of the best dirty jokes you'll ever come across though! :smile:
...and in all indictments for libels the jury shall have the right to determine the law and the facts, under the direction of the court, as in other cases.
(Jury nullification. It's not just a good idea, it's the law!)
Declaration of Rights, PA Constitution
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http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-secrets.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-secrets.html)
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It's like my sick and abusive sponsor used to say "THINK THINK THINK AND YOU'LL DRINK DRINK DRINK".I would try to expess myself a little further but I have to go annoy people on my path to death.(Is there a path that doesn't lead to death?)
THANX!- EVERYBODY
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Do you think to much?
What a ridiculous notion!!!!
What a funny story! Thanks for posting that.
It appears many don't think enough.
This little ditty used in place of AA dogma outlines the aburdities.
damn!
:rofl: :grin:
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Personally I'm sick of this thread and would like to read some of those dirty jokes told by Cayo's AA friends...... :silly:
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Dear Sarah,
I am sorry to hear about your Dad. My Grandma was in AA for the last years of her life and it helped her tremndously. She was diagnosed with colon cancer and died after several rounds of chemo. I rememeber her saying she was happy she stayed sober as long as she did, even with the cancer. I did the AA thing and it dosnt fit me. I do see how it can be helpful to others as you can. And i think the other peps on this forum can at least let others make the choice to go to AA if they want. Its when the system sends them unwillingly that they have a problem and I agree. Not only because it is a violation of rights, but also one who dosnt want help will not get help till they seek help(not all the time, but most the time I feel that is true.)
Amanda
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http://orange-papers.org/orange-jokes.html (http://orange-papers.org/orange-jokes.html)
New Alcoholism Treatment
We have developed a new treatment modality for alcoholism: the Cheech'n'Chong Treatment Program. It works like this: whenever you get cravings for alcohol, you put on a ballerina's tutu and slippers, and Mickey Mouse ears, just like Cheech and Chong in the movie "Up in Smoke". Then you jump up and down on one foot, while juggling five tennis balls, and reciting Shakespeare sonnets. Continue this procedure for as long as the cravings last.
Rarely has this simple program been known to fail, except for a few unfortunates who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves while wearing a tutu.
It works, if you work it.
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No - it's not a cult - it's just a support group. Anyone can go. Of course the courts do order people to attend - but they do this because AA is free and there are plenty of meetingst to attend.....
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No, its a cult. :wave:
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I dont think that is accurate anon. They do it cuz AA is the only answer they have besides jail and they cant send everyone to jail. Oh, you can go to drug/alcohol therapy, but its basically the same thing and costs money. AA should deffinetly be a personal choice because if it isnt, there is no point in sending someone there. Say they may actually follow the principles and stuff, but they are forced to go before they are ready. Tehy wont get any assistance from it if they dotn want to be there. You have to want to change to change anything in your life, not because a group or a court or a person tells you to. You have to realize what you are doing isnt right for you and then change. If you dotn feel like what oyur doing is wrong then your not going to want to change. And much about it is weird and stuff. However I feel like if they want to do it, fine, thats their perogative. But you wouldnt send someone to church for driving drunk. Its their choice to be religious or not and the state shoudlnt be able to tell you what to believe. That would be wrong. But AA is very similar to religion and therfore its kind of the same thing.
Amanda
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Very true - you can't change unless you want to. No one can force someone to change either. The old saying " you can lead a horse to water - but you can't make him drink" really applies to everyone.
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Sure you can change someone against their will. You just have to break their will. And there are endless ways to do that. Not insignificant among them is the threat of incarceration.
Marihuana influences Negroes to look at white people in the eye, step on white men's shadows and look at a white woman twice.
--Hearst newspapers nationwide, 1934