Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on April 12, 2005, 02:25:00 AM
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I am here humbly asking for advice, guidance & your opinions. I am a parent of what I beleive to be a truly troubled teen. I would like to give you some background information on my child.
Prior to last year, my child had always been a good student, thoughtful, funny, compassionate, & overall a really intersting, fascinating kid.
Approximately 7 months she began a downward spiral into depression, self mutilation, suicidal ideation, & at times homicidal ideation.
Her grades began to drop rapidly, she stopped caring about her appearance, often not showering for 3 -4 days & then only showering after a huge arguement between us. She stopped fixing her hair & wearing decent clothes, choosing to wear her pajamas to school instead & refusiing to comb her hair. Her grades continued to fall..she is now failing several classes. She also began to hang out with some new friends. This group of friends idealized & romanticized suicide, self mutilation & death. She eventually left that group, only to find a new group that is equally fascinated with the macabre. She began self mutilating & hid it successfully from us for over a month. When we found out, we talked with her to try understand what is going on. She began seeing a therapist. She beagn having suicidal ideations & auditory hallucinations & the therapist reccomended an acute adolescent hospital. She satyed less than 2 weeks, began medication treatment & was discharged. She had to return to the hospital after several weeks home due to increased suicidal ideation,& a suicide attempt. She stayed for several weeks at the hospital.
While she was in the hospital she met a young man who is very disturbed; disassociative disorder, homicidal, suicidal, self mutilates, schizophrenic, etc... They were forbidden to talk to each other in the hospital, due to a budding romance between them.
It is the hospitals policy, as well as the reccomendation of all the doctor's & therapists that these two not be able to have contact with one another when they were released from the hospital.
While in the hospital the second time, my dughter also disclosed sexual abuse she had suffered at the hand of a friend's uncle when she was younger.
Now she is out & refuses to talk to anyone about the sexual abuse, & has made some subtle & not so subtle comments about being raped in the past. Again, she refuse to discuss this with anyone: friend, family, therapist, stranger.
She had been told not to have contact with the boy she met in the hospital. She agreed to that. She has been seeing him for months. Her web of lies & deceit is quite impressive.
Her self mutilation has increased once again.
She is no longer rooted in reality. She has convinced herself of some pretty bizarre beliefs & untruths.
She is obsessed with death & dying. She often pleads with us to let her die. She continues to break every rule we set down & show absolutely no remorse for doing so.
She is going to be kicked out of school soon, for her failing grades.
She is still in therapy, still taking meds.
We have tried everything...talking, laughing, loving, hugging, yelling, crying, pleading, taking away privileges, adding privileges, you name it, we have done it.
I see my precious daughter slipping away from herself & from us. I don't know what to do.
After reading a lot of these horror stories from the survivors & parents on this site, I question what I should do.
I would especially be interested in hearing from other kids who have gone through this. I would like to know your thoughts & opinions on how you wish your parents had handled things & how you would do things different if you could.
The last thing I want to do is cause my daughter any pain. I just don't want to wake up to find her gone either.
By the way she is only 14 years old.
Thanks,
A worried parent
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I wish I could give you some advice. I am going through a similar situation with my daughter.
I have researched a lot of different treatment options. I have read a lot of stories on this site. it has really opened my eyes to what can happen uder the guise of "treatment".
You can e mail me privately if you would like to.
I don't know where you are located, but you may want to check with your local mental health alliance for treatment options in your home city.
I was a troubled teen also, as was my husband.
My husband spent 2 years in a RTC back in the early 1980's. He still has a hard time talking about it. He is still angry with his parents, but he now understands why they put him there. As a father of a troubled girl, he sees how devastating & lethal these behaviors can be. He said if we could find a safe, healthy therapuetic RTC that would benefit her & help her, he wouldn't hesitate to get ther the help she needs.
The problem with that is, I'm not sure there is any such thing as a safe, healthy, therapeutic RTC out there.
Keep up the good fight!
Greene BeanThe worst government is the most moral. One composed of cynics
is often very tolerant and human. But when fanatics are on top,
there is no limit to oppression.
--H.L. Mencken
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Um well you can e-mail me or PM me. My e-mail is Perrigaud@hotmail.com
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I'd say just get open with her and talk. It seems you have already. I'm just saying it for some parent who might stumble by my post and read it.
Just find out why she feels this way and why she wants to slip out instead of try to turn to those who love her. I'm sure youve tried, but you have to keep trying.
Also, just pull her out of school. She has more important things to worry about now than grades.
She seems very unstable and naturally you want her under observation and *REAL* care and *REAL* safety, but given the nature of the 'treatment industry' Its going to be really, really tough to find anything good.
If you do place her in some program or psych hospital stay in CONSTANT contact with her. Make the people who run the joint *SICK* of you. If they try to keep you out of contact with her, or listen in on phone calls or censor or dont let her say whatever the hell she wants about the place good or bad, pull her out. If she lies about abuse, well, listen to her but check out ofr yourself. Go and just be there a lot. Also, spend time alone with her.
The biggest safety issue with placement in a hospital or program is that theyre in the programs world and cut off from the outside. Dont let that happen. I helped make an article at http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens (http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens) - it should be helpful for assuring the safety of your kid.
But, I'd still put off on that kind of treatment. Look further into therapy and medication. It sounds like shes delusional, but I wont make that determination. Timoclea knows a lot more about mental health than I do.
As for your part, just keep her home and keep her with you, unless youre unable to keep her safe. STICK WITH THE THERAPY! (Again, for other parents, not you) Then, and if even a day program cant do so, find full time commitment at a SAFE program whereyou are in CONSTANT contact with her (if they dont let you pull her immediately, and dont let them shove you around legally, get a lawyer on retainer) until shes stabilized on medication and with real therapy, and then bring her home at night. If she lies and says they abuse her, check with the internet, the CPS, the program, etc about it. Dont let them punish her for it. Shes suffering mental illness and delusion, and wants to die - think punishment is going to HELP that?
People should only be locked up as long as necessary and not a second more. I know you just want to help your kid and send them off to get helped but you cant send a kid away to get fixed like a car or a TV.
And now, I degress. Its all about how she feels inside. Its going to take personal inteaction with truely compassionate people, and professionals, and probably some serious medication to help out. Just... steer away from paxil. I know two people who've developed dependancy on it and are still in withdrawl TWO years later, or cant get off it at all, respectively.
I wish you the best of luck, and god bless. Shes struggling with pain and looked to idealization of death and other 'dark' things as her outlet. She's depressed and pessimistic. But, shes not "behaving badly" and dont let some program try to call her a bad kid or "punish her" or "beahviorially modify" her as such. Sure, they might totally tear her down back to a child and make her back into a stepford kid, but then shed have to deal with the EXTRA emotional scarring a few years down the road, PLUS this.
Its a sad state of affairs when you have to worry about treatment hurting the kid worse than whats already happened, but its just the way it is right now. All I can say is just to repeat- DO NOT let yourself be seperated from your daughter, DO NOT let people call her a liar or stop her from saying *ANYTHING* about the facility or whatever, to you or anyone else. Visit constantly and takl constantly. If the program has rules about contact, like the now-ubiquitious 3 month wait to call the parent - avoid it like the plague.A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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On 2005-04-12 00:51:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"Um well you can e-mail me or PM me. My e-mail is Perrigaud@hotmail.com"
I see Perriguad is trying to make some easy money by convincing these poor folk to send their children to WWASP's flagship gulag, Cross Creek Manor.
People, make no mistake about it-- ALL of WWASP's gulags are abusive, regardless of what WWASPies like Perriguad say.
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Ma'am, if you go to the website for the Children and Adolescent Bipolar Foundation (google CABF) they have parent testimonials to RTCs. Look in the Community Center, Member Message boards, and then there's one for parent testimonials to RTCs. If you decide you need one, look for one that *doesn't* have parents and survivors on Fornits complaining of abuse or fraud. One that's been in business a long time, that the survivors' organizations have never heard of, that embraces a *medical* model of treatment for your teen, not a Behavior Modification model.
What you don't want to do is send your daughter to a Behavior Modification facility, as they often, in my opinion, have this "you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs" attitude towards people who suicide after leaving---and that's precisely what you're worried about with your daughter in the first place.
You might try another acute hospitalization or two first.
Your kid sounds like major depression with schizoaffective features. You haven't mentioned mania, hypomania, or bipolar.
I'll talk in terms of parents of bipolar kids because the meds prescribed are somewhat different, but the problems parents face in the treatment process are the same.
All I can give for reference is that most parents of bipolar kids who are dangerous try half a dozen conventional hospitalizations before deciding to go with an RTC. That's because for *most* mentally ill children, they get successfully stabilized along that route of hospitalizations and never need to go into an RTC.
Let me, briefly, explain what's going in in case none of the doctors explained to you:
There are a lot of effective meds for what your daughter has. Some are effective for some people, but not for others. Different people have bad side effects on one drug, and few to none on another.
Unfortunately, the only way the doctor can find the right medication, or medication combination, and dosage for your daughter is trial and error.
They psychiatrists have a lot of medications to try, but they just have to keep trying one after another until they find out what works for each patient.
This is why even though your daughter was "put on medication" she isn't better yet.
The psychiatrists haven't found the right medicines yet to stabilize *her*.
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The *good* news is that once she is stable on medication, she has a very good chance of being just fine---like night and day. Since she's mostly full grown, her meds may or may not increase or decrease with the seasons, depending on if she's sensitive to that, but other than that once she's stable she'll probably only have to see a psychiatrist once every 3 months to touch base and make sure she's still doing fine on what they call a "maintenance dose."
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Hospitalize her again if she's actively suicidal now, and see if they can get her stabilized. (Consult your doctor--I am not a doctor.)
Find out if there's a day hospitalization program in your area for when she gets out, because it may take more time to get her stabilized than they can do in the hospital. What day hospitalization does is supervises her during the day since you can't.
Then you only need to supervise her at night. Lock up the sharp knives or anything she might hurt herself with, make sure all upper story windows are locked shut, and use a key-only deadbolt on the doors out of the house.
You will *more than likely* be able to get her stable without going to an RTC. It may take several more acute hospitalizations while they find the right meds for her.
Mental illness of a child is very painful for a parent to deal with. You have my sympathy for what you're going through.
Please know that there is hope, and there is help, but you need to closely work with your child's psychiatrist right now to find the right medication(s), combination, and dosage(s) to specifically stabilize her.
Don't get sucked into a Behavior Modification facility that takes Juvenile Delinquents, because that could be really bad for your daughter and could make her worse. (It's not just me who says so--the National Institutes of Mental Health, NIMH, issued a warning against BM facilities who put seriously mentally ill children right in along with juvenile delinquents.)
If you aren't sure about a facility, have a friend call them posing as the parent of a juvenile delinquent who is not mentally ill (make up appropriate behavioral problems) and see if the facility sounds like they want to take the fictitious juv. del. girl or not. If they do, it's a red flag. Anyplace that wants to limit your phone contact with you daughter is a red flag. Any RTC that won't let you come visit your daughter just like you could if she was in the hospital is a red flag.
Best of luck. If you want to talk to me further, you can send me private messages on Fornits under the name "Timoclea"
Timoclea, bipolar
mother to Katie, 9 year old, bipolar
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Just a suggestion, it won't hurt to try. Your daughter may be similar to me in the respect that her problem may be of a "monthly" nature. You see, some girls/women have such a rollercoaster of hormone imbalance due to thier menstral cycle that it can last 1 or 2 weeks before her cycle and 1 or 2 weeks after, therefore affecting her life the whole month! Before you decide on any other course of action try visiting a very good gynocologist. See if it's possible that her cycle could be causing this. It may not be, you might be on the right path already - but what if this is the cause? One or two visits to a good gyno could make a difference. Naturally, I recommend a woman gyn because they have a better understanding of what it's like to be female.
I hope you don't mind the suggestion, I know it's a bit different.
Good luck, and remember, every chance you have to encourage your daughter and tell her how proud you are of her for the GOOD things she does every day can make a world of difference.
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PS - I posted about the seeing the gyn. I am not discounting the trauma she's been through with the sexual abuse. That's horrid. But it can wash away over the years with good therapy. My heart goes to her and your family.
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Contact your county mental health board and ask them what services they have to help parents work with high risk teens at home and prevent the need for outside, restricted placement. Ask about wrap around services. Be persistent with them. Find an advocate that can help you coordinate with her school. She is protected by 504 and perhaps eligible for an IEP through IDEA. Your child needs you. Beware of making her more vulnerable to exploitation by placing her in a RTC where you are unable to monitor her treatment. Good luck to you and your beautiful daughter.
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Original Poster:
I am not saying this to call you out or make you feel bad.
But please look at the whole household situation for your daughter. What have things been like? If she is a very sensitive girl, she could at least in part be reacting to whatever the problems are with the people she is living with. I speak from personal experience. In a house of pain, I think the sensitive child reacts and takes on all the pain, expressing it by what she is doing.
Her bizarre ideas could be a reaction to or a way to escape from all of the stress at home. Whether the relationships around the house are noisy and confrontational, or stewing with unspoken painful history, teenagers often feel this stuff acutely. This will take a little passage through pretty uncomfortable stuff for you, too.
I only wish you the very best, and thank you for posting here and caring to ask about getting the right kind of assistance for your daughter.
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I know you mean well and I'm sorry, but no, wrong, and your recommendation is dangerous.
Psychotic symptoms such as delusions and hallucinations, in a child, are *NOT* "reactions to sadness"---they are very serious and should be treated very seriously.
Yes, of course if there are problems with the environment you want to improve the environment.
But most likely these parents are just ordinary people whose daughter got a bad role of the genetic dice to be vulnerable to mental illness and something triggered it---we have no idea what triggers these vulnerabilities, just that as far as the doctors can tell the parents of these children are a lot like any other parents.
Since when identical twins get it, the other twin is much more likely to come down with it but not 100% sure to, we know there's a genetic component *and* something to trigger it, but that something could literally be *anything* and is something, since nobody has even half a clue what it is, that the parents have no control over.
These are not bad parents. This is not a bad child. This is a child with a serious neurological disorder that usually responds well to treatment, but it takes a fair bit of trial and error to find the right one of the many available treatment options for any specific patient.
Do not hand out the false hope to these parents that if they somehow make their home life perfect their child will no longer be psychotic.
I know you mean well, but your comments are more likely to sink the parents in self doubt, even though you said you don't intend that. And I believe you don't intend that.
Nevertheless, if you sink them in self-doubt and persuade them to avoid getting their child on appropriate antipsychotic medication, that would be a disaster for their family and their child.
It could be the difference between their child living and dying---and that isn't program-speak exaggeration.
Their kid needs a good pediatric psychiatrist to take another close look at the kid's medication right the hell now, preferably in a hospital setting.
I quote:
"Suicide is often an impulsive act: A child can be having a glass of milk in the kitchen one minute and leap from a bedroom window the next. It happens that fast; it happens that unexpectedly. The notion that people who threaten suicide never actually go through with it is a dangerous myth."
_The Bipolar Child_, page 265, by Demitri Papolos, M.D. and Janice Papolose, ISBN 0-7679-1285-3
(also authors of _Overcoming Depression_
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"Many people might ask: Who would expose their child to such a symptom profile? Well, it all goes back to risk/benefit. The chances are that the movement disorders and TD may not appear, but certainly psychosis, severe rage, and mania are malignant for a child. Psychosis untreated gravely imperils a child."
Same, page 108
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"Demitri Papolos, M.D., is an associate professor of psychiatry at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York City and the codirector of the Program in Behavioral Genetics. He is the director of research of the Juvenile Bipolar Research Foundation, and is in private practice in New York City and Westport, Connecticut. Janice Papolos is the author of three other books, all recognized as definitive in their fields, and is the editor of the highly respected 'The Bipolar Child Newsletter.' The Papoloses are the authors of the classic text _Overcoming Depression_, now in its third edition. They live in Westport, Connecticut. Visit their website at http://www.bipolarchild.com (http://www.bipolarchild.com)"
Biographical notes on book jacket.
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If this were my child, and she is still suicidal and/or experiencing delusions, voices or hallucinations, I would take her *immediately* to the emergency room, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
If she is not still suicidal or experiencing delusions, voices or hallucinations, I would call her psychiatrist (pdoc) and get a phone consult and talk to the pdoc *today* about the symptoms she has been having.
This is *not* something to take lightly, and it is *not* something to wait on.
Consult a qualified pdoc right now.
I am not a doctor, but I can tell you need one, and you need one now.
The only exception would be if you have seen her pdoc in the past week and the pdoc said it would take a bit for the symptoms to clear.
When my daughter was this unstable---and she wasn't even suicidal or psychotic, "just" manic---her pdoc was seeing her *weekly* to monitor how she was or wasn't adapting to her changes in medication.
Timoclea, bp for 22 years, stable on paxil, welbutriin, lamictal
mom to Katie, bp, 9 years old, stable on Abilify
BS in Psychology, Georgia Tech, 1990
On 2005-04-12 10:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Original Poster:
I am not saying this to call you out or make you feel bad.
But please look at the whole household situation for your daughter. What have things been like? If she is a very sensitive girl, she could at least in part be reacting to whatever the problems are with the people she is living with. I speak from personal experience. In a house of pain, I think the sensitive child reacts and takes on all the pain, expressing it by what she is doing.
Her bizarre ideas could be a reaction to or a way to escape from all of the stress at home. Whether the relationships around the house are noisy and confrontational, or stewing with unspoken painful history, teenagers often feel this stuff acutely. This will take a little passage through pretty uncomfortable stuff for you, too.
I only wish you the very best, and thank you for posting here and caring to ask about getting the right kind of assistance for your daughter.
"
Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? ... If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?
-- Patrick Henry
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Timoclea, normally I like and respect your posts. However, neither of us know anything about this situation other than what the Original Poster posted. If the girl is indeed having psychotic and suicidal symptoms of course she should see a doctor. If the family is a mess, they should deal with it.
My experience is as worthy as yours. Just because your experience is inherited mental illness does not mean that is the only case. There are many cases of mental illness induced by abuse.
I for one highly doubt that this is a situation where it is just a girl's onset of mental illness and the rest of the scene is a-ok. At the very least there is the information about the sexual abuse, which is the source of at least some of the stress the girl has been hiding.
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On 2005-04-12 15:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Timoclea, normally I like and respect your posts. However, neither of us know anything about this situation other than what the Original Poster posted. If the girl is indeed having psychotic and suicidal symptoms of course she should see a doctor. If the family is a mess, they should deal with it.
My experience is as worthy as yours. Just because your experience is inherited mental illness does not mean that is the only case. There are many cases of mental illness induced by abuse.
I for one highly doubt that this is a situation where it is just a girl's onset of mental illness and the rest of the scene is a-ok. At the very least there is the information about the sexual abuse, which is the source of at least some of the stress the girl has been hiding. "
I'm not talking about the worthiness of your experience.
It doesn't matter whether mental symptoms are induced by genetics, emotional trauma, or head injury, the right medications for the affected brain lobes help normalize the patient's brain.
You cannot stop a child from being psychotic and suicidal just by making the home not sad.
I *said* if the home life is bad, by all means fix it.
But after having this prey on the back of my mind all day, I felt like my first post was very remiss in not telling the parents that this was a situation for immediate medical attention---acute care if she's been hallucinating and feeling suicidal within the past couple of days, calling the pdoc (today) if the hallucinations and feeling suicidal were just since the last pdoc appointment.
Some things you wait before contacting a doctor. Some things you don't. Some things you go straight to the hospital. This is one of those things you don't wait on---whether you go straight to the hospital or not.
You kinda implied that fixing anything wrong in the home would get her better---and from the symptoms the mother listed, the daughter needs medical attention right now. Psychosis---which is what the delusions and hallucinations the mom mentioned is---doesn't just get better when you fix the environment.
Unless they've seen the doctor within the past week or haven't had these symptoms since they last saw the doctor, they need to call their doctor ASAP, bare minimum.
Now sometimes you expect to still have some problems while you're ramping up dosage slowly on a new medication, or it takes a certain amount of time for it to kick in, or you have to wean off one that didn't work and need to get it out of your system before you try the next thing. And in that case the doctor may know the symptoms are there and be doing the next needed thing about it and you follow it and bite your nails and go ahead and put the kid through the medication change.
But if the doc doesn't know the girl is having these symptoms since the last appointment---you call. If the kid is talking suicidally and doing the "I wish I was dead" or "I hate being alive" thing, you go to the emergency room.
Which would you rather, that they call the doctor and go to the ER when she would have made it through the night or that they *don't* go and she hurts herself or someone else?
It doesn't matter what triggered it---sexual abuse or whatever----what matters is that she is ill *now*. Acute treatment of depression and psychotic symptoms is the same no matter how you got them.
Your experience is worthwhile and you're a good person and all that, and I'm sure you mean well.
Some of the things the mother listed are psychotic symptoms and it doesn't matter how they got there, what matters is that they *are* there.
The girl is suicidal *after* being released from the hospital and can't be counted on to tell the truth about what she is experiencing. It doesn't matter how they got there, what matters is that they *are* there.
Your experience is worthwhile and valid and you're a nice person----but if you've never been psychotic or suicidal, or you don't have advanced degrees in treating people who are, or you haven't raised a child who is, then you aren't up to giving advice on this that doesn't do more harm than good.
The mother could have been exaggerating for all we know. It could be some twelve year old with a warped sense of humor that typed that message for all we know. But I don't believe either of those things. I believe it *was* a mother of a teenage girl who was giving an accurate description of her daughter's history and symptoms, and from what she said the situation is critically serious and is NOT something to fuck around with.
Of course if she's still experiencing bad crap you stop the bad crap.
But you put the house fire out before you vacuum the living room. Your advice in *this particular* case, even though you mean well and sound like someone I would like and respect, is the equivalent of telling this lady to vacuum the floor when she should be calling the fire department.
A lot of times I'm not a tactful person, but I've been thinking about this on and off all day and I am *scared* for this mother and her kid, okay?
I'm not trying to hurt you. I'm trying to get her to get medical care for a problem where time is of the essence.
Please don't lets have this be about you and me. I'm sure you're nice, and I'm sure you know a lot within the area of your experience, but unless you're a psychiatrist, you aren't competent to actually help this woman and *I'm not either*---but she needs one, and she needs one now.
Timocleasay what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile.
--Kurt Vonnegut, American author
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Oh, what the mother said about "she has convinced herself of some very bizarre beliefs and untruths."
That's a delusion.
The auditory hallucinations she had when she was hospitalized tells me she's had psychosis problems.
The persisting bizarre beliefs and untruths and that she doesn't realize they aren't so is what tells me she's still having psychotic symptoms.
Yeah, okay, delusions can take awhile to let go once you're stabilized. But this girl is not stabilized, which makes the delusions much more worrisome.
She lies. You don't know that she's not hearing voices right now telling her to kill herself or do something else---which could be anything. You can't count on her to tell you if she's hearing things still or if they've stopped. The delusions are all the parents have to go on.
The "bizarre beliefs" that she's "convinced herself" of is where what the mother is describing in everyday terms sounds like a delusion.
Yes, the parents need to protect this girl from further sexual abuse.
But first they need to get her stabilized. She is not going to get raped or molested at the ER or the doctor's office.
TimocleaIn no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.
--James Madison, U.S. President
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On 2005-04-12 10:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Original Poster:
I am not saying this to call you out or make you feel bad.
But please look at the whole household situation for your daughter. What have things been like? If she is a very sensitive girl, she could at least in part be reacting to whatever the problems are with the people she is living with. I speak from personal experience. In a house of pain, I think the sensitive child reacts and takes on all the pain, expressing it by what she is doing.
Her bizarre ideas could be a reaction to or a way to escape from all of the stress at home. Whether the relationships around the house are noisy and confrontational, or stewing with unspoken painful history, teenagers often feel this stuff acutely. This will take a little passage through pretty uncomfortable stuff for you, too.
I only wish you the very best, and thank you for posting here and caring to ask about getting the right kind of assistance for your daughter.
"
I stand by what I said. It was even tempered by "she could at least in part be reacting to..."
Sorry Timoclea, but you have a lot of nerve telling me what I said is wrong. I did not come along and discount what you said -- and possibly some of it is applicable to this person's situation, I never said it wasn't. I'm adding to the picture though. So leave my experience and whatever I have to say to this person alone.
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Remember "A Beautiful Mind"?
Contrary to the script, he regained control without the use of drugs.
It is possible.
I think a key factor was that there was someone in his life who kept bringing him back to reality- a life-preserver in the sea of confusion and fear.
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OK, I am going to dive right in here.
I am the original poster of this topic.
I am a mom, not a 12 year old. I have a daughter who is terribly troubled. I appreciate both schools of thought on this (the fix your home & the get her to the MD).
Her diagnosis (given to us during her last hospitalization) are as follows : Border Line Personality, Major Depression with psychosis, Generalized Anxiety Disorder, Acute Psychotic break, PTSD & Schizoaffective traits.
Anonymous, I wish it were as easy as cleaning up my home environment...that would be welcomed & easy to do. This is serious mental illness & needs to be treated as such. We do not have a chaotic, sad, stressed, or depressed household. We are very regular people with no major issues surronding our home.We are not perfect by any means, just normal, down to earth people without a lot of chaos in our life.
We just recently found out about the sexual abuse (it is not ongoing), my daughter suffered this abuse for 2 years without our knowing anything about it. It always occurred at her friend's home & we never had ANY warning signs or clues this was happening. The abuse has stopped & we are getting her appropriate treatment with a mental health professional that specializes in PTSD related to sexual trauma.
My daughter (as well as the rest of us) also suffered the loss of a close family member to suicide. In addition to these 2 incredibly traumatizing events, she has had to undergo extensive medical testing for an endrocrine condition. She cannot take medication for this condition, as her psychosis gets worse with any hormonal treatments.
I am not discounting the idea that some kids are a product of their environment & if their home life could be stabilized, they too would be more stable...not the case here. Like I said, I wish it was that simple.
I am at a crossroads here...do I continue with the treatment she has been receiving (as it seems an act in futility at this point), or do I take it to the next level? That is something her doctor will have to help me walk through.
I originally posted this topic, because I wasn't sure if my daughter's behaviors & illness would warrant possible RTC placement or if you other survivors & parents knew of another way.
I have 2 other children & their home life needs to be safe guarded as well. Their mental health & quality of life is as important to me as my troubled daughters. My daughters behaviors have begun to have negative consequences for my other children. I have to consider everyone's wellbeing.
I am still very open to discussion, comments, questions & advice.
I have not decided what my next move will be....RTC (maybe), Acute Hospitalization (probably), Health & wellness for my entire family (definitely). :smile:
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I forgot to add....I talked to her psychiatrist today. her hallucinations & dellusions are ongoing. These are not new for us. Some of the dellusions are new (the paranoia is new).
The psychiatrist, as well as my husband & I don't believe she is actively suicidal at this point. She denied any desire to act on a suicidal thought. We are watching her very close & are aware that things can change at any moment.
Her doctor said she is chronically suicidal at this point (long term, take a lot to change), rather than ACUTELY suicidal (ready to act on it)...this is unsettling to me as a parent, because obviously any degree of suicidality is unacceptable & terrifying.
At this point we have to take her at her word that she won't try to take her own life. That is difficult to do with her history of lying, but something we really have no choice in.
I don't truly believe in my heart of hearts that she is actively suicidal at this exact moment in time. If that changes tomorrow or in the next 2 minutes, you better believe I will have her in the ER faster than you can blink.
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Me making money through my advocacy? Wow wouldn't I be wealthy. Please I wish that was the case. Good one though. Very funny anonymous.
Sometimes it's a matter of finding a therapist that she trusts. It sounds as if she's got some issues she has seld onto. All that we gather when we are younger tend to come out when teenage years come around. Ask her what she wants to do. Within reason try to come up with some sort of aggreement. She sounds like she's in a lot of emotional pain. Medicine will not heal this type of pain. It is my belief that she needs to heal what's behind what is going on. Not easy. If you do decide to place her in a program I suggest that you thoroughly look at it and explore it completely. You can't be too careful when it comes to these places. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-04-13 05:57 ]
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On 2005-04-13 00:34:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"All that we gather when we are younger tend to come out when teenage years come around. Ask her what she wants to do. Within reason try to come up with some sort of aggreement. She sounds like she's in a lot of emotional pain."
This is a good point.
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here is some current info on BPD:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... forum=22&5 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9015&forum=22&5)
Take care not to read the older literature or studies that claim BPD can not be treated; or that it is your fault.
Newer research proves it Can be treated and even "cured" for some patients; and there is a strong genetic component. That is now beyond any doubt. Timocela speaks of triggers, and I agree.
My personal thoughts are there is a genetic predisposition to the disorder and it may be made more seriously disruptive to the patient by various environmental circumstances - which might not have anything to do with the family unit.
Personally, I believe the use of day care for infants may have a great deal to do with why BPD is now epidemic and why we see the percentage of male patients equaling the female.
I also think public education has a tendency to exasperate the problems.
I think the genetic predisposition is very common in the population; but the full blown development of the disorder was once rare; as the kind of environment needed to make the symptoms become sever were rare.
I think the common use of day care to warehouse or babies creates just such an environment on a grand scale; and as a result, we have a once very rare disorder becoming common place.
This is my personal observation.
I feel that clearly Something in society changed.
I think this is the answer. This, and possibly diet.
I believe the genitically predisposed, who have none of the triggers, will still have the disorder - but on a much less sever scale. They will probably always have trouble with relationships, but will for the most part be able to hold down a job - even be highly successful. But for the patient who has the genitics and the triggers the disorder will be more severe.
Adoptees are also very heavily represented in the BPD population; and my personal thoughts are this is due to the genetic factors - that the Bio mom was likely BPD. Also, very likely the dad - as these folks seem to attract one another and often have very "rowdy" relationships.
I believe if adoptive parents were told up front about the apparent connection; and educated on DBT and how to teach it to young children, much of the disabling BPD we see in this group could be avoided.
But all these notions I have are very politically incorrect. And these are just my own thoughts.
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I like what you have to say. I worked at a private school, and there was a difference between the kids whose parents picked them up after school, and those who stayed late until 5 or 6 for their parents to get off work.
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Dear Original Poster,
I am glad that your daughter is seeing someone who is a specialist in treating PTSD. It may help you to educate yourself on this disorder as you are your daughter's primary support person and will be challenged for a long time about how to best support her recovery. I will include a link for the SIDRAN National trauma organization, a very good place to start.
We were in almost an identical situation as you. Things were so out of control and it seemed as if professionals in the community only lumped on another new diagnosis with no cohesive, coordinated plan while our child and family continued to spiral downward under the stress of dealing with a child in so much pain who was acting out self destructive impulses and having rages against us. There were occassions that we had to call the police to deal with these behaviors, but I would only recommend it as a last resort!!! School refusal and a sleep disorder were a part of the picture. Instead of trying to be suppportive or at least protecting the child's right to accomodations for the illness under Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973-- a civil right's law-- the school was hostile to our requests for help and punitive toward a child who had previously been an exemplary student. Things continued to worsen, with increased suicide attempts and threats to run away. We especially had difficulty managing those acute episodes. Most of the time we were told that child wasn't disturbed enough for in-patient and would learn worse behaviors, no beds, etc. After a particulary nasty cutting episode that required medical treatment and observation for suicidal ideation child was hospitalized. The doc there was a zip them up on meds & discharge type. It seemed as if no one could give us a plan for dealing with the PTSD-- just a label and more labels leading to a life as a "career mental health patient".
At this point, we turned to a wilderness intervention program and an emotional growth boarding school. What allured us was the presence of a CLINICAL staff and slick promotional promises of an individualized educational approach with small teacher/student ratios that would be geared toward learning styles and strengths of child. The emotional growth part was presented as helping the child recover and build skills to cope in a more positive fashion. We were desperate and would make any sacrifice to see our child safe and recover. We NEVER approved of the negative, tear them down approach of BOOT CAMPS, and knew that this approach made children sicker. We were persuaded that EG was not like a boot camp approach.
WHAT WE EXPERIENCED:
Clinical staff were well-intentioned, but had no power in the system. The educational program plan was a "cookie cutter" plan that did not address any individual needs. In fact, it was humiliating to child. Program staff, who seemed to call the shots, were uneducated and seemed to believe that negative confrontations and harshness were legitimate treatment techniques that they were applying for the child's "OWN GOOD". The "program" was focused on negative behaviors and negative, punitive interventions-- a dressed-up, tear them down boot camp approach!!! Former positive, self-soothing coping mechanisims were denied the child. During a period when child was experiencing suicidal ideation and therapist had child on 15 minute bed checks, program staff subjected child to a scary, disorienting group punishment. Child became extremely agitated and was hospitalized near EG school. Psychiatric support refused to discuss PTSD & environmental triggers at the EG school and forcefully advised antipsychotic medication. At this point we had seen too much of this bizzare approach to "saving lives" and "pulled" our student.
We are of the opinion that the "treatment" child was receiving was pushing child into decompensation, or a psychotic break. Luckily, we had finally managed to connect with wrap around services in our community and a program where therapists/casemanagers/doctors came into the home not only to work with child, but to help us learn how to work with child and deescalate from the sleep-deprived crisis mode we had all been operating under for three years. We had a plan in place to bring the child home. (The best thing about having child gone for awhile was the opportunity to sleep so we could think clearly. This extra sleep probably helped us see through the EG BS!!!!!, -- despite the implicit message that we had screwed our child up so now we should step back and let the EG staff do their job. Very undermining to stresed-out parents who are in crisis themselves).
In wrong, undersupervised hands the approach is similar to the ritual abuse in cults where the self-system is further broken down. Maybe it works for some, but our child's program was very punitive & negative. Lots of restrictions, long periods of isolation, weeks in fact. During one week long table restriction, child was not allowed to laugh or smile.
In summary, we knew better than to subject a child with PTSD to a "boot camp" approach. We believed we were getting a positive, growth oriented program for our child. In our experience, this was not the case. The program made child worse. For months after coming home, child not only had nightmares about the original PTSD triggering event, but about the EG school!!!!!!!!! The time-out period away from child in crisis, which could be accomplished by respite service in the community, perhaps, helped us think more clearly.
With support from advocates, child did receive an IEP at public school, which is far from perfect but better than the no cooperation at all we had from ps before. Things are getting better, slowly for the past two years.... Still are times and areas that need work, but the intensity and frequency of these have improved. Our response to episodes makes a difference, as did diagnosis and treatment of the sleeping disorder. Also, IEP protects child from ps draconian attendance policy that gives a child with an A or B an "F" for too many absences or tardies. Public schools' response to emotional disturbance, or any disability, in fact, is another story.....
My heart goes out to you. There are no easy, quick answers, I know. But from our experience, a retricted EG placement that removes you from direct observation of your child, communication with your child, and the ability to exercise "due diligence" over your child's treatment is no way to go.
Here are the links to SIDRAN:
http://www.sidran.org/ (http://www.sidran.org/)
and
from the FDA Advisory Statement on PTSD
http://www.sidran.org/fda.html (http://www.sidran.org/fda.html)
FDA Advisory Statement on PTSD
By Esther Giller and Elizabeth Vermilyea
The Sidran Foundation
?...Comorbidity
The moderating effects of PTSD can significantly complicate any other co-occurring disorder including developmental disorders. Persons with PTSD are likely to have at least one other mental health disorder. Even in the most conservative studies, people with PTSD were two to four times more likely than those without PTSD to have almost any other psychiatric diagnosis (Kessler et. al., 1995). Somatization was found to be 90 times more likely in those with PTSD than in those without PTSD. This shows an important but frequently overlooked connection between PTSD and physical complaints.
Many people with PTSD turn to alcohol or drugs in an attempt to escape their symptoms. Clients who are dually diagnosed with substance abuse and PTSD may benefit from trauma treatment instead of or in addition to traditional model substance abuse programs........
Misdiagnosis
Misdiagnosis and incorrect or inadequate treatment is not unusual for adults and children with PTSD. For example, refractory depression, substance abuse, and eating disorders, among others, often mask underlying but undiagnosed PTSD. Flashbacks and other dissociative episodes can frequently be mistaken for psychosis (especially schizophrenia), and unnecessary anti-psychotic medication can undermine treatment progress. Schools increasingly report disciplinary problems with no understanding that some children may be suffering from violence-related trauma disorders rather than ADHD or ADD. Consequently, they are improperly treated with Ritalin, while their real problems remain unaddressed.
Education
There is a dearth of treatment providers properly trained to recognize and treat PTSD, especially complex chronic types, and the topic is rarely addressed in universities and professional schools. Public education about PTSD is lacking as well, with lay people commonly associating PTSD with combat and little else.?
Good luck,
BEEN THERE, DONE THAT
P. S. Victim's Assistance Program was very supportive of us.
<
Her diagnosis (given to us during her last hospitalization) are as follows : Border Line Personality, Major Depression with psychosis, Generalized Anxiety Disorder, Acute Psychotic break, PTSD & Schizoaffective traits.
Anonymous, I wish it were as easy as cleaning up my home environment...that would be welcomed & easy to do. This is serious mental illness & needs to be treated as such. We do not have a chaotic, sad, stressed, or depressed household. We are very regular people with no major issues surronding our home.We are not perfect by any means, just normal, down to earth people without a lot of chaos in our life.
We just recently found out about the sexual abuse (it is not ongoing), my daughter suffered this abuse for 2 years without our knowing anything about it. It always occurred at her friend's home & we never had ANY warning signs or clues this was happening. The abuse has stopped & we are getting her appropriate treatment with a mental health professional that specializes in PTSD related to sexual trauma.
My daughter (as well as the rest of us) also suffered the loss of a close family member to suicide. In addition to these 2 incredibly traumatizing events, she has had to undergo extensive medical testing for an endrocrine condition. She cannot take medication for this condition, as her psychosis gets worse with any hormonal treatments.
I am not discounting the idea that some kids are a product of their environment & if their home life could be stabilized, they too would be more stable...not the case here. Like I said, I wish it was that simple.
I am at a crossroads here...do I continue with the treatment she has been receiving (as it seems an act in futility at this point), or do I take it to the next level? That is something her doctor will have to help me walk through.
I originally posted this topic, because I wasn't sure if my daughter's behaviors & illness would warrant possible RTC placement or if you other survivors & parents knew of another way.
I have 2 other children & their home life needs to be safe guarded as well. Their mental health & quality of life is as important to me as my troubled daughters. My daughters behaviors have begun to have negative consequences for my other children. I have to consider everyone's wellbeing.
I am still very open to discussion, comments, questions & advice.
I have not decided what my next move will be....RTC (maybe), Acute Hospitalization (probably), Health & wellness for my entire family (definitely). :smile: "
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On 2005-04-12 21:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I forgot to add....I talked to her psychiatrist today. her hallucinations & dellusions are ongoing. These are not new for us. Some of the dellusions are new (the paranoia is new).
The psychiatrist, as well as my husband & I don't believe she is actively suicidal at this point. She denied any desire to act on a suicidal thought. We are watching her very close & are aware that things can change at any moment.
Her doctor said she is chronically suicidal at this point (long term, take a lot to change), rather than ACUTELY suicidal (ready to act on it)...this is unsettling to me as a parent, because obviously any degree of suicidality is unacceptable & terrifying.
At this point we have to take her at her word that she won't try to take her own life. That is difficult to do with her history of lying, but something we really have no choice in.
I don't truly believe in my heart of hearts that she is actively suicidal at this exact moment in time. If that changes tomorrow or in the next 2 minutes, you better believe I will have her in the ER faster than you can blink.
"
Ma'am, I am so glad you talked to your doctor.
I was scared for you and your daughter, and I know you still are. It hit me hard because your daughter's experience and symptoms are very much like what I went through as a teenager and my parents were more inclined to wait than to get me to a doctor. And in all fairness, the doctors knew less than they do now. But my parents are very nice people and they weren't bad parents.
Having been through this myself and being alive today largely due to luck, well, it hit home.
I'm very glad you called your doctor and I wish you and your family the best no matter what you decide you need to do.
Timoclea
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Good information on PTSD.
Your sources are right, it would be easy to mistake flashbacks or dissociative episodes for psychotic symptoms, even in the absence of more classic psychotic symptoms like hallucinations, voices, delusions, feelings of "bugs" on the skin, etc.
Misdiagnosis is a real problem with psychiatric disorders, which is rough because the meds that help people with one disorder can be disastrous for others. Ritalin really helps ADHD kids---but it can drive bipolars manic. And so forth.
I'm sorry about your bad wilderness camp experience.
Your experience with having to get an advocate for help with the school to get them to provide an IEP and to get even minimal accomodations from them, and still having it be an ongoing hassle dealing with them, is unfortunately not rare.
I'm glad your daughter is finally getting some of the accomodations she needs and that her sleep is good. Most people wouldn't believe how much psychiatric symptoms improve if you can just get someone's sleep cycle righted.
Timoclea
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It was the EG boarding school that was really a disaster. The time-limited wilderness program itself was helpful in some ways.
Yes, public school response to kids with disabilities, particulary mental health disabilities, is a huge problem in itself for many. I think they systematically discriminate against them and treat them in such a way as to encourage them to become criminals, drop-outs, etc.
Along with the increase in adolecent depression, suicide, etc., I see school districts that are starting kids earlier and earlier. Ours starts at 7:15 AM and dismisses at 2:15 PM. Why? Who knows? The schedule interfers with a normal teen's sleep cycle -- see research on teens & sleep-
not to mention how it effects those with problems or who are on sedating meds. I also suspect that these crazy schedules are contributing to the emotional instability of teens. Again, see what comes from prolonged disrupted sleep in the research. Some districts have opted to start the young ones earlier and the teens later-- 9 AM-- for this very reason. It matches their sleep cycles better. Not most, though, They just do what they want to do.
What is really scary is to look at the numbers on kids who are incarcerated. Huge percentages suffer from PTSD, Bi-Polar Disorder, Major Depression, or some form of learning disorder. Suggests to me that our communities and schools are NOT doing a very good job on identifying and serving these kids early on before things get out of control. It's so much easier to scapegoat the kid or the families. While some elementary teachers are tremendously skilled and dedicated, quite a few teachers are no better than the pumped-up authroitarian personalities that work in these EG programs, taking kids with ADHD, Asperger's, etc. and turning them into antisocial criminals or nervous wrecks!
What we have, I am afraid, is a national crisis that is much bigger than the teen help industry, which after all, is just exploiting a bad situation.
Yes, addressing the sleep disorders has had a tremendous impact. It makes the other issues manageable. The sleep study documented the difficulties so the black & white thinking school officials could kind of "get it". Child is on meds for the sleep disorder which are less high risk than the other psychiatric meds, and the IEP starts child's day at 8:oo am instead of 7:15. Doesn't seem like a big change, but it has been really significant. Child is now non-violent & compliant with normal school & household rules & better able to cope with stresses and triggers from other issues.
On 2005-04-13 07:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Good information on PTSD.
Your sources are right, it would be easy to mistake flashbacks or dissociative episodes for psychotic symptoms, even in the absence of more classic psychotic symptoms like hallucinations, voices, delusions, feelings of "bugs" on the skin, etc.
Misdiagnosis is a real problem with psychiatric disorders, which is rough because the meds that help people with one disorder can be disastrous for others. Ritalin really helps ADHD kids---but it can drive bipolars manic. And so forth.
I'm sorry about your bad wilderness camp experience.
Your experience with having to get an advocate for help with the school to get them to provide an IEP and to get even minimal accomodations from them, and still having it be an ongoing hassle dealing with them, is unfortunately not rare.
I'm glad your daughter is finally getting some of the accomodations she needs and that her sleep is good. Most people wouldn't believe how much psychiatric symptoms improve if you can just get someone's sleep cycle righted.
Timoclea
"
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If you're not overwhelmed, here is more food for thought. Good luck to you and your daughter.
The truth is that not one of these popular child psychiatric diagnoses (eg., ADHD, Bipolar Disorder, etc.) has been validated in the scientific literature as having an identifiable physical or chemical abnormality. There is no independent objective test for ADHD or Bipolar or Childhood Depression or any of these so-called mental illnesses. Biopsychiatry is a pseudoscience, and these drugs are extremely dangerous. All these diagnoses are entirely subjective opinions about groupings of various behaviors, which means that a very high percentage of young people can be labeled-hence the dangers of mental health screening.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#86638 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8608&forum=9&start=0#86638)
Perspective on progression in the MH Industry:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#33502 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3572&forum=9&start=10#33502)
In addition to getting her involved in one or more extra curricular activities of her choice which could help by increasing ?pleasure? and self-esteem:
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =70#946111 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7682&forum=9&start=70#946111)
I?d find a reputable doctor with extensive experience in treating problems without drugs- which have their own side-effects and dangers, sometimes worse than the 'problem':
http://www.breggin.com/sjpc.html (http://www.breggin.com/sjpc.html)
http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/ ... search.asp (http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/directory/full_search.asp)
http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/ ... manual.htm (http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/fieldmanual.htm)
http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/De ... causes.htm (http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/Depression_Information/causes.htm)
http://www.newstarget.com/003021.html (http://www.newstarget.com/003021.html)
http://mentalhelp.net/books/books.php?type=de&id=2296 (http://mentalhelp.net/books/books.php?type=de&id=2296)
Yahoo group
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wi ... _Recovery/ (http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Withdrawal_and_Recovery/)
Genetic?:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=50#26164 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3515&forum=9&start=50#26164)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=40#26121 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3515&forum=9&start=40#26121)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=40#26086 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3515&forum=9&start=40#26086)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =100#51984 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3515&forum=9&start=100#51984)
Lying:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=50#75535 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3216&forum=9&start=50#75535)
PTSD:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =140#62377 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3515&forum=9&start=140#62377)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =290#81671 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7127&forum=39&start=290#81671)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#56496 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6064&forum=11&start=0#56496)
Many causes for problems with living:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#53396 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5804&forum=9&start=10#53396)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#52529 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5804&forum=9&start=0#52529)
What the combination of drugs and wilderness did to a teen I knew who was labeled ?bipolar?:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... um=9#23759 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3313&forum=9#23759)
And another:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#12651 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=867&forum=11&start=0#12651)
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My mind keeps going back to this kid. And I keep returning to the same ole', trite and dim witted seeming response. I have no idea what to make of auditory hallucinations.
The stock response is "go to the experts", and I hate ever saying that to anyone for any reason because "experts" are often wrong. But I suppose if my daughter were telling me she heard voices, I'd dive in and read up on auditory hallucinations from every conceivable angle to try and understand.
The thing that keeps bugging me is that this sounds like a sudden change. Is it related to puberty? Or did something horrible happen? Or is this kid just trying on one of the many available paint-by-numbers identities available in today's social marketplace?
It just seems so overwhelming and there are SO many vulters out there waiting to move in on desperate parents.
My trite, cliche, stock response is that a change of scene might do you good. If you're wealthy enough to afford one of these RTCs, maybe you can afford a trip instead. Something really different and interesting. Ask your daughter to help you choose a destination. Not that it'll magically solve all of her problems or yours. But sometimes, just getting away from everything, taking a break and doing/seeing something different can help anybody gain perspective.
Hear me people: We now have to deal with another race - small and feeble when our fathers first met them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possessions is a disease with them. These people have made many rules which the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
Chief Sitting Bull, speaking at the Powder River Conference, 1877
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Ginger asks:
The thing that keeps bugging me is that this sounds like a sudden change. Is it related to puberty?
This does seem to be a factor with many of these kids. When speaking of BPD, Often times, the parents will relate that it was apparent to them that something was different (troubling) with how their child responds to the world at a very early age; however, most will tell you that the symptoms that send them desperately looking for help begin with puberty; and often times, will relate that on the occasions that police are called or hospitalizations take place, the girl is premenstrual. The hormones Do seem to exasperate the more disorganized and psychotic features of these patients.
With a severely effected BPD patient, you will have occasional psychotic breaks. It can look like Bi-polar mania in this way, and is often mistaken for it. And to further complicate matters, can co exist with it; as well as very commonly, some form or other of OCD.
The good news is, things do get better as the girl grows up; but if she is in fact BPD, she will have problems that negatively effect her quality of life unless she gets appropriate therapy. The Good news - there is appropriate therapy, that works.
Deb makes valid points about the meds. I don't go so far as she, and I do know of many folks greatly helped by the newer meds available now. But I also know of many who have had serious side effects that they will live with the rest of their lives; and most sadly, from meds that weren't appropriate in the first place.
As has been pointed out (by Ginger I think) the professionals are often totally ignorant about these disorders. This is why it is So important for the family to educate themselves.
It is overwhelming - but it must be done. It gets easier.
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Safe Harbor has a wealth of information on alternatives.
Tips for Those Who Hear Voices
http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/ ... lfhelp.htm (http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/selfhelp.htm)
Articles on alternatives for ?bipolar/ schiz??
http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/ ... ault.htm#B (http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/default.htm#B)
Non drug testimonials
http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/ ... efault.htm (http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/testimonials/default.htm)
http://www.statesman.com/news/content/a ... 500ab.html (http://www.statesman.com/news/content/auto/epaper/editions/friday/news_1418be6d753510e500ab.html)
Stress found to activate enzyme that impairs memory
Enzyme also is active in bipolar disorder and schizophrenia
By RANDOLPH E. SCHMID
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Excerpt:
But a team of researchers has found how it happens, a discovery that they say could point the way to better treatments for such illnesses as schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.
Stressful situations in which the individual has no control were found to activate an enzyme in the brain called protein kinase C, which impairs the short-term memory and other functions in the prefrontal cortex, the executive-decision part of the brain, says Dr. Amy F. T. Arnsten of Yale Medical School.
The findings were reported Thursday in the journal Science
The PKC enzyme is also active in bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, and Arnsten notes that a first psychotic episode can be precipitated by a stressful situation, such as going away to college for the first time or joining the military.
By affecting that part of the brain, the researchers say, PKC could be a factor in the distractibility, impulsiveness and impaired judgment that occurs in those illnesses.
"These new findings may also help us understand the impulsivity and distractibility observed in children with lead poisoning," she said. "Very low levels of lead can activate PKC, and this may lead to impaired regulation of behavior."
The researchers used chemicals to induce stress in rats and monkeys because the stress levels are easily controlled, Arnsten said.
It was similar to humans exposed to loud noise or panicking before an exam, she said.
"It doesn't have to be traumatic, as long as you feel out of control," she said. "Control is the essential factor.... If you are confident, you don't have these problems."
On Enzyme treatment:
I have never believed that people ?just go nuts." I have always believed that abnormal brain chemistry leading to mental problems is a direct result of abnormal body chemistry, poor nutrition and hormonal imbalances.
One of the most critical aspects of body chemistry is the activity of enzymes. Enzymes are substances that speed up chemical reactions in all plants and animals. Without enzymes, these reactions would occur too slowly or not at all. The names of enzymes commonly end in ?-ase.?
Much of the pioneering work in enzyme research was done by Howard Loomis, D.C. He developed many of the enzyme formulas I and other enzyme therapists use as well as objective tests to determine enzyme deficiencies. In this article I will be referring to these formulas used in the Chirozyme line of enzyme products.
http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/ ... nzymes.htm (http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/enzymes.htm)
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Buzz,
My approach to any problem is to find the optimum method of dealing with it, which is not going to cause new problems.
While some people appear to have no effect from the drugs they're taking on a day-to-day basis, they don't know what they are doing to their organs and natural brain chemistry. I guess for some, a few 'good' years are worth it. Not for me.
I prefer alternatives and weeding out the real underlying physical deficiency and/or emotional distress.
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I just read this post and would like to write to the original poster. I too was in an extremely similar situation to your daugter 5 years ago. I was extremely depressed, suicidal, I didnt take a shower for weeks on end, I dressed in ratty old cloths, got involved in witchcraft and the whold goth scene, did drugs, drank, smoked cigarettes, basically dropped out of school, had insomnia, ect. I was wondering if she has done LSD. I have had expereinces and have had friends who have had expereinces with LSD where even after months after doing it, you still hear voices, have hallucinations, ect. It could be a possibility.
First off, let me say that I think you are very brave and smart to be trying to get your daugter some help. Whatever method you choose, I think you are a good parent and I can understand your concern. My parents tried everything to help me. Therapy, prescription drugs (antidepressants, antibuse, ect) mental hospitals, grounding me, taking privliges away, ect. I ended up going to Cross Creek Manor. Granted it was 5 years ago, but I know it helped me. Alot of people hate these wwasp programs and for good reason. Some of them are horrible. But I expereinced no abuse there, and I really feel it helped me. I have not been suicidal since, I have been sober since, and I am basically a happy person now. I am married and have a daugter, I am in the process of going back to school, and I have a much better relationship wiht my parents now. I havnt been in the program for a while, so if you consider CCM, do research (unbiased) and they would of course let you go there and check it out. I am only aware of how my program was so I cant give any advice on any of the other ones. If you want to ask me questions feel free. I hope you keep faith in your daughter. She loves you but probably has a hard time lovign herself right now. I know when I was like that, I pretended not to care, but truly deep down I loved my parents, I just took most of my anger out on them because I loved them the most. I know that sounds odd, but true. I hope you can find a place, method, whatever that works for her and you. My heart truly goes out to you. I know if my daughter wsa doing that, I would be beside myself. It is hard. You can do everything "right" and still you kids can become unhappy and unbelieveble embarrased by you. I know the program worked for me because I knew I needed help. I was so unhappy in my life, I didnt even cry about leaving my friends, my home, going to a new place, leavign my family, ect. I cried because I knew my life was so out of control that this was the only way for me. I had tried it all and it didnt work. All I know is when I tried the program, it did work.
The best of luck to you.
Amanda
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a few thoughts on this post:
1. the lsd issue.
Some users of LSD experience what is clinically referred to as LSD psychosis, schizophrenic-like disorders that seem to be triggered by using the drug. However, in careful analysis of LSD psychosis patients, it appears that those who have strong family histories of major psychosis or psychopathology are more vulnerable than those who do not (Tsuang et al., 1982). Vardy et al. (1983) reported similar findings, as well as that LSD psychotics have significantly higher rates of parental alcoholism than control groups. In a survey of five-thousand individuals who had used LSD a total of twenty-five-thousand times, Cohen (1960) found 1.8 psychotic episodes per thousand ingestions, 1.2 attempted suicides, and 0.4 completed suicides -- figures consistent with the those of the general population.
Bad reactions to LSD are almost certainly dependent on the user. It is becoming increasingly easier to diagnose schizophrenics clinically as patients suffering physical disorders -- these people should be very cautious, if not completely avoidant of truly powerful psychoactive drugs like LSD. There are another class of people who use LSD irresponsibly, ignoring important factors like set and setting -- bad reactions, more acute then chronic, are likely to occur here as well.
The phenomena of LSD flashbacks has been over-sensualized by the media for many years. Flashbacks are associated with highly emotional experiences and often happen to people who have never used psychedelic drugs. A frightening war memory, being raped, or even getting married, can all trigger flashbacks quite some time later. Thus, an emotional experience on LSD can also cause flashbacks. Flashbacks also occur due to post-traumatic stress disorder, associated with victims of disaster and extreme violence -- it is estimated that 1% of the general population suffers from this ("Journey for Better Life," 1992).
i took these excerpts from an article on the psychological effects of lsd. you can read the full text here.
http://nepenthes.lycaeum.org/Drugs/LSD/LSD.psych.html (http://nepenthes.lycaeum.org/Drugs/LSD/LSD.psych.html)
2. general comments
i had a similar experience as a teen. i did a *lot* of drugs, drank, smoked, cut school, got in trouble, acted out sexually etc, etc. my parents sent me to a wilderness and then a tbs. did i get something out of it? sure. it was a better option than winding up in the legal system. do i attribute my "turnaround" to my experiences at a tbs? nope. i can tell you that most of the growth i did there i attribute to my *individual* work with ONE counselor there (who was subsequently fired)...my family and i were discussing this a month back or so...i had asked them numerous times to remove me from the tbs and put me in a regular boarding school and have me see a therapist weekly, which they did not do because they had been convinced that i could not survive without "completing the program." personally, i think that would have been a much better route. i had a really tough time adjusting to the "real world" after my experience and i often felt very estranged and crazy. i still did a lot of the same shit when i got out as i did while i was there...however, i am now in my mid-20s, have repaired my relationship with my parents, and am doing pretty damn well in grad school. i think that the waning of my drug use and my ability to drink responsibly are a direct result of a very common process: maturing. i have seen a therapist off and on in the 7 years since i left the tbs, but i find the therapy (with a licensed *professional*) i have done on the outside to be much more helpful - i am not expected to follow a particular formula or path in order to grow as a person, and no therapist i have seen has ever screamed at me or mindfucked me or taken a perverse interest in my sexual past. i understand why my parents sent me away but i still do not feel that it was the best solution...and at this point in time, neither do they. we have discussed this extensively and both of my parents regret it. they feel that they were betrayed and misled by the school (although they admit to willful blindness) and have expressed deep regret about their decision. i think that the best thing about me going to a tbs is that when my little brother started acting out they realized that they needed to deal with the situation differently. they both made a concerted effort to be home a lot more, found a therapist (a *professional* woman who had extensive experience working with teens and substance abuse) that he could connect with, took weekend "bonding" trips with him, found out what his hopes and dreams were and took him to look at universities where he could study and be passionate and had him talk to admissions counselors who told him what he needed to do to get into those kinds of programs. he is an honors student at the university of michigan now...that *sensible*hands-on* and *caring* approach seems to have worked very well for him. and i can guarantee you it was much cheaper and less painful that way.
On 2005-04-13 13:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I just read this post and would like to write to the original poster. I too was in an extremely similar situation to your daugter 5 years ago. I was extremely depressed, suicidal, I didnt take a shower for weeks on end, I dressed in ratty old cloths, got involved in witchcraft and the whold goth scene, did drugs, drank, smoked cigarettes, basically dropped out of school, had insomnia, ect. I was wondering if she has done LSD. I have had expereinces and have had friends who have had expereinces with LSD where even after months after doing it, you still hear voices, have hallucinations, ect. It could be a possibility.
First off, let me say that I think you are very brave and smart to be trying to get your daugter some help. Whatever method you choose, I think you are a good parent and I can understand your concern. My parents tried everything to help me. Therapy, prescription drugs (antidepressants, antibuse, ect) mental hospitals, grounding me, taking privliges away, ect. I ended up going to Cross Creek Manor. Granted it was 5 years ago, but I know it helped me. Alot of people hate these wwasp programs and for good reason. Some of them are horrible. But I expereinced no abuse there, and I really feel it helped me. I have not been suicidal since, I have been sober since, and I am basically a happy person now. I am married and have a daugter, I am in the process of going back to school, and I have a much better relationship wiht my parents now. I havnt been in the program for a while, so if you consider CCM, do research (unbiased) and they would of course let you go there and check it out. I am only aware of how my program was so I cant give any advice on any of the other ones. If you want to ask me questions feel free. I hope you keep faith in your daughter. She loves you but probably has a hard time lovign herself right now. I know when I was like that, I pretended not to care, but truly deep down I loved my parents, I just took most of my anger out on them because I loved them the most. I know that sounds odd, but true. I hope you can find a place, method, whatever that works for her and you. My heart truly goes out to you. I know if my daughter wsa doing that, I would be beside myself. It is hard. You can do everything "right" and still you kids can become unhappy and unbelieveble embarrased by you. I know the program worked for me because I knew I needed help. I was so unhappy in my life, I didnt even cry about leaving my friends, my home, going to a new place, leavign my family, ect. I cried because I knew my life was so out of control that this was the only way for me. I had tried it all and it didnt work. All I know is when I tried the program, it did work. b
The best of luck to you.
Amanda"
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On 2005-04-13 10:05:00, Antigen wrote:
"My mind keeps going back to this kid. And I keep returning to the same ole', trite and dim witted seeming response. I have no idea what to make of auditory hallucinations.
The stock response is "go to the experts", and I hate ever saying that to anyone for any reason because "experts" are often wrong. But I suppose if my daughter were telling me she heard voices, I'd dive in and read up on auditory hallucinations from every conceivable angle to try and understand.
The thing that keeps bugging me is that this sounds like a sudden change. Is it related to puberty? Or did something horrible happen? Or is this kid just trying on one of the many available paint-by-numbers identities available in today's social marketplace?
It just seems so overwhelming and there are SO many vulters out there waiting to move in on desperate parents.
My trite, cliche, stock response is that a change of scene might do you good. If you're wealthy enough to afford one of these RTCs, maybe you can afford a trip instead. Something really different and interesting. Ask your daughter to help you choose a destination. Not that it'll magically solve all of her problems or yours. But sometimes, just getting away from everything, taking a break and doing/seeing something different can help anybody gain perspective.
Hear me people: We now have to deal with another race - small and feeble when our fathers first met them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possessions is a disease with them. These people have made many rules which the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
Chief Sitting Bull, speaking at the Powder River Conference, 1877
"
Ginger---mental illnesses often have their first onset in adolescents.
Nobody really knows why. People have speculated that it might have to do with the upheaval--bodily and socially--of the teenage years, but nobody really knows.
They just know it happens.
I'd encourage any skeptic who doesn't think mental illnesses are real and neurological to google SPECT and Dr. Amen and look at the pictures of people's brains that he's got with different disorders.
It's all fine and well to say that there are alternatives to medication, but that doesn't help you a lot if your kid suicides or kills someone else.
People with garden variety, uncomplicated major depression---there are a lot of them, and they are less likely to commit acts of violence than people who aren't mentally ill.
Psychotic people are much, much more likely to commit acts of violence than people who are not mentally ill.
There are a lot *fewer* psychotic people than there are depressed people.
What that means is when you lump the few psychotic people together with the large number of depressed people and average the acts of violence per person committed by all mentally ill people, mentally ill people are no more likely to be violent than people without mental illnesses.
But lumping all mental illness into the same basket hides a very real danger to, and from, psychotic people.
Most---meaning more than half---psychotic people don't commit acts of violence. But if you think about "most" as meaning "more than half" and think about the risks, it's just a really bad idea to trust a psychotic patient's health and welfare to "alternatives" to medication.
The risks of pursuing alternatives instead of medications, for psychotic people, outweigh the benefits of avoiding potential side effects.
This is especially true when you consider that there are a whole lot of drugs with antipsychotic effects, and that the atypical antipsychotics are less likely to have serious side effects than the old ones (Thorazine, etc.)
Letting somebody walk around actively psychotic---whether it's a child, another loved one, or yourself----just because you're paranoid that the FDA didn't know what they were doing when *they* evaluated the risks and benefits and said the drugs were safe and effective---is a very poor decision.
It's too late to decide going off your meds was a bad idea when you're in jail.
That it's high risk to leave people walking around actively psychotic---dangerous to them and everyone around them---is not opinion. It's a fact.
Sometimes psychotic symptoms go into remission for awhile, but they can always come back. Maintenance doses of the drugs are to stop that from happening and are much safer than just completely going off the meds. If, because of bad side effects, you take a psychotic patient off the meds in the periods while they're in remission, you have to have someone watching them closely to get them back on the meds and stabilized when the remission period ends and the symptoms come back.
The symptoms can abate for awhile--even years, but that doesn't mean you or your loved one no longer has a mental illness. There is no cure.
It will be nice someday if and when they find a cure, but right now, there isn't one.
TimocleaIt is criminal to steal a purse. It is daring to steal a fortune. It is a mark of greatness to steal a crown. The blame diminishes as the guilt increases
--Schiller (1759-1805)
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Im a little confused. Are you saying it is possible but unlikely the auditory hallucinations would be caused by LSD? I think that was the point. Considering it is dangerous to test for LSD and I doubt the girl would tell her mom if she did it or not, it is probably not going to be easy to tell if that is why. If she is deffinety clinically depressed, then she should be on meds. But people can be misdiagnosed and i woudl hate to see someone put on meds they dont need. I hope it is something small like that or something that can go away, but I dont know. I just thought Id put that out there as a possibility.
I dont think the program was perfect. I think a transitional period would be good. We had one in my program and it helped me. They also had the college program where girls done with High School could go to community colledge and basically lived at a duplex near the college and near CCM and slept at the facility. i have a few friends who did that and they say it helped tremendously to transition them to the "outside". Thogh I am not sure if it is still around.
I had good therapists at CCM. I learned alot from therapy and no one screamed at me or made me feel uncomfortable. Actually I havnt found a therapist yet who measures up and I have been looking for 5 years! I have found that alot of my friends who didnt go to any program or really do anything but therapy are doing, well, not so good. They arent dead, but they have the same life they had in high school. I mean they are 5 years older now and still the same. I know alot of people go thorough adolecence and come out of it ok. But for me I needed help to get my head on straight. As I have said before, my parents tried many solutions outside the program and none worked for me. I attribute my success to me. Not the program. But I think the program helped me get to the place I wanted to be. I dont think it did it for me, I worked damn hard to be where I am today, but it certainy assisted anyway. I have an unbelievably good relationship wiht my Mom, Dad, and step mom now that I honestly think the program helped us achieve. I can communicate wiht them now. i have had to continue my path outside the program and consider it to be pretty difficult and also very great. I too have some beef wiht the program, but the proincipal is good. I think the tools I learned there were great. I dont think everything about it was superb, but nevertheless, the main principles and the main points of the program made sense to me and helped me.
My parents did try the sensible caring approach, believe you me. They tried talking to me, giving me creative licence so i could occupy my time with art and music and cooking (my passions) and took me on vacations, spent time wiht me, ect. I just wasnt in the place to listen or care at the time. I look back on who I was then and see a different person. Like it was a dream or something. like i could never have done, said, lived those things. But I understand that if the program didnt work for you it would be hard to see why it worked for me. I didnt feel it was painful or damaging to me in anyway. I dont like everything abou tthe program , but I like what i learned there and am greatful to be who I am today. I attribute that to both myself and the program.
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http://www.wildestcolts.com/john/voices.html (http://www.wildestcolts.com/john/voices.html)
About 2/3 of the way down.
Hearing Voices
One of the "symptoms" of Stephanie's "mental illness" which most frightened her parents was that she "heard voices" inside her head, so-called auditory hallucinations. Jane and Steve were frightened that she might be violent. Psychiatry was justified in responding to this sign of incipient psychosis by labeling Stephanie with a "major mental illness," and giving her Lithium and Risperdal. This was big-time "anti-psychotic" warfare, using two highly suppressive, adult psychiatric drugs. My own experience is that I continually have thoughts that seem to intrude themselves upon me, coming from apparently nowhere. Sometimes these thoughts have a certain potency, either a distressing or frightening content, or an energy and experience like an inner voice speaking inside my head. Virtually everyone I've ever discussed this with reports similar experiences. It's common talk, really, as people say, "Part of me said to do this, but another part wants this," of "something inside just said "Go for it," or "You better not," or whatever. Sometimes it's called, "I heard my dad's voice warning me not to go down that road," or "telling me what a piece of shit I am." The latter is referred to in psychological parlance as a "shame voice." John Bradshaw, in his book, Healing the Shame That Binds You, helped many to understand the damaging and insidious nature of this voice of internalized shame, this inner critic and put-down artist. We all contend with this, and it is usually worse under times of stress. When we've been shamed a lot, and go into psychological overwhelm, this voice, or oftentimes voices, can take on intense emotional charge, even the quality of a so-called "auditory hallucination" bringing one to tears or compelling action which is self-destructive. It can also be other-destructive. Every parent knows what itÕs like to be possessed by shame, to fall out of loving with your child, to see him as "bad,, and deserving of the shame and punishment you wreak upon her. There is no "bad" child, just as there is no "mentally ill" child; there are children who are hurt, emotionally distressed, out-of-control, and needing our help, not our punishment and shame. It's our job to clear that up for ourselves.
I knew that the distress of Stephanie and her family would show up and need to be faced in a positive way as they went through their healing process. Last week, I got a call from Steve saying they'd had a really hard day. Stephanie had apparently decided not to do an assignment, and had lied about it. She got caught, the parents got angry, she got defensive, then overwhelmed, then reported "hearing voices.. All in all, the parents handled it very well, but understandably their fear came upon them. I listened to Stephanie as she told me very clearly about what happened, about her "bad decision," about Steve's anger that scared her, about having to spend the day handling the assignment, about hearing voices. They were several voices, all clear faces of shame -- "You're no good," "You're stupid," "What's wrong with you,"and worse. Many were rather dramatic, some she recognized -- a "mean " boy at school, a parent, a teacher -- others were more like dramatized characters. Let me assure you that this is the stuff of which psychiatric diagnoses such as "psychosis" and "multiple personality disorder" are made. It is also the stuff we all must face to "heal the shame that binds us;" fortunately, Stephanie is quite lucid and most responsive to encouragement. She will do just fine.
It is interesting that our conversation brought forward another significant piece of information with which to work. I was most concerned about avoiding another psychiatric hospitalization, losing ground on the drug withdrawal, and strengthening Stephanie's dangerous identity as a "mental patient." Stephanie, however, revealed that there were several benefits to Shoal Creek -- a comfortable room, lots of attention, a respite from family conflict, good meals, her choice of ice cream -- and that part of her liked the idea of going back. This attraction, of course, felt stronger when things weren't going well at home. Stephanie was not aware that Shoal Creek is also one of two Austin hospitals that routinely practices electroshock on its patients. Although we managed to outlaw electroshock for individuals under age 16 in Texas, it is being done to children in other states. And it most definitely is the "backup treatment," after drugs, of the practitioners of biopsychiatry. The role of "mental patient" is a dangerous one. Regarding this last week with Stephanie's family, the task was to validate how well her parents handled the situation, and to educate them further about this thing of "hearing voices." I wanted to continue the ongoing reinforcement of the fact that her drug withdrawal and emotional recovery were the most important factors in her life right now, and that they were all doing very well. I let them know how delighted I was that this had happened the way it did. I saw the experience as an important step in reclaiming the naturalness of a child and family's life challenges from the dangerous interpretations and resulting actions of Psychiatry. I encourage all of us to be allies to individual children and families and respond positively to children's needs, even while we challenge the bigger picture of Psychiatric Oppression in our society.
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This is an awesome report on a study that was conducted at Tx Christian University.
Quote "The little girl?s behavior wasn?t the only thing that was transformed after the program. Simple urine tests showed that Julie?s brain chemistry, wildly out of sync on day one, had improved dramatically as well. These findings dazzled the TCU researchers ? that a child could be pulled back from the brink of mental illness by helping her connect with her mother and teaching her to navigate the world."
NO DRUGS.
.....Purvis agreed to coach the Johnsons through an intensive home program if certain conditions were met. The family had to curtail their daughter?s outside activities, and one parent was to remain within three feet of her around the clock for many weeks. With Purvis? help, the Johnsons developed a list of simple rules for Julie and wrote them on a big chart. (Rules like ?Listen to Mom and Dad,? ?No hurts,? ?No growling,? and ?Use my words.?) The couple were explicitly trained in how to respond when their daughter broke any of them. The discipline was both playful and firm and remained intently focused on retraining, not punishing. Positive feedback and encouragement were given whenever possible.
The researcher taught the parents strategies to help the little girl manage her deep-seated trauma, self-regulate her emotional and physical needs, and gain trust in and respect for her adoptive parents. To interrupt violent episodes, the Johnsons learned a physical restraint that transitions into a nurturing cuddling session once the child has calmed down. The goal is to restore a healthy attachment between parents and child through a careful balance of structure and nurturing.
Julie?s behavior improved tremendously during the course of the three-month program. Her outbursts diminished, and her affection and happiness increased. And these gains have held steady. The only medication Julie needs now, nearly a year later, is a sleeping aid to counteract persistent insomnia.
The little girl?s behavior wasn?t the only thing that was transformed after the program. Simple urine tests showed that Julie?s brain chemistry, wildly out of sync on day one, had improved dramatically as well. These findings dazzled the TCU researchers ? that a child could be pulled back from the brink of mental illness by helping her connect with her mother and teaching her to navigate the world. The findings in Julie?s case dovetail with Purvis and Cross? groundbreaking research into the interaction of brain chemistry and behavior, which is already pointing the way to more effective therapies for troubled youngsters. The professors? work ? an unusual combination of applied field work and research ? has begun to draw national and international notice in the adoption field.
All the North Texas parents interviewed for this story emphasized how difficult it was to find the right diagnosis and treatment for their troubled children. (None of the family members? real names is used, to protect their privacy.) Many visited professional after professional, getting conflicting advice and diagnoses, before coming to the TCU program.
The researchers know that when children get aggressive or can?t sit still, their behavior often masks a profound fear or frustration at their inability to articulate feelings. So the camp works to reduce fear and help the youngsters express themselves ? all in a playful, relaxed environment.
First and foremost, the camp emphasizes an atmosphere of ?felt safety.? Purvis and Cross reason that even though parents or counselors know that the children are safe, what?s critical is that these deeply traumatized children experience the safety for themselves.
****
In 2003, Cross and Purvis were asked to provide local support to a Fort Worth family going through a home program led by Virginia neuropsychologist Ronald Federici. This particular home program, involving an at-risk child called Dane, was documented on an NBC Dateline segment.
Biochemistry researcher Gottfried Kellerman, who saw the tv segment and obtained Dane?s neurochemical profile, contacted Cross and Purvis to share his worry that the boy was currently being abused, because the biochemistry levels looked wildly dysfunctional, especially the levels of neurotransmitters ? substances that control excitability, depression, and aggression. The TCU professors assured Dr. Gottfried that in fact Dane?s adoptive home was loving and stable. They concluded that his neurotransmitter levels were still out of whack because of earlier mistreatment. The three got to considering how abuse can leave a legacy in a child?s brain, and a research collaboration was hatched.
Kellerman is CEO of Neuroscience, Inc., a Wisconsin company that produces nutritional supplements designed to boost and optimize neurotransmitter levels in the body. Neurotransmitters interact in a carefully synchronized dance. Some neurotransmitters stimulate us, while others, like serotonin, soothe and calm us down. The right balance is crucial to good mental health and appropriate behavior.
As part of a collaborative study with Neuroscience, the TCU researchers followed the biochemistry of 97 adopted children. Through urine tests, they tracked eight different types of neurotransmitters and mapped those levels against the children?s behavior. Cross and Purvis say that theirs is the first study to track so many neurotransmitters in this context.
Initial results confirmed what they had found with Dane: The vast majority of the adopted children, even while living in a stable new home, still had the neurochemical fingerprint of their early abuse. Physically, their bodies and minds remained overstressed and were not functioning optimally. For example, virtually every child came into the study with low serotonin levels.
In another striking example, the children averaged three times the normal level of phenylethylalanine (PEA). ?At normal levels PEA has to do with creativity and good thinking,? said Purvis, ?but at high elevation it has to do with psychotic disorders.?
Using Neuroscience products, the children received TAAT (targeted amino acid therapy) treatment, which provides nutritional supplements that can be used by the child?s own body to create the specific neurotransmitters they need. ?These are products you could buy under 20 different names in any grocery store,? explained Purvis.
At first the kids? depleted bodies couldn?t handle the flood of needed neurotransmitters. So they were switched to slower release and more individually customized forms of the supplements, which were tweaked as needed
Over the course of the study, the researchers saw that aggressive, delinquent behavior correlated with certain levels of two neurotransmitters (dopamine and histamine). Other conditions, like attention problems and anxiety also could be predicted by neurotransmitter levels.
Purvis marvels about how much they?ve learned about complicated brain chemistry as a result of the TAAT study. ?It?s really an exponential advance,? she said. Cross has documented the initial results in a report that will soon be reviewed by a panel of experts. A follow-up report will examine the interplay between behavioral treatments and the supplements.
Perhaps the most telling result is that 20 percent of the test families were so delighted with the results that they begged for their youngsters to continue supplementation even after the two-month study was finished. These families have been referred to local certified nutritionists to continue treatment.
Read other's experiences at:
http://www.fwweekly.com/content.asp?article=169 (http://www.fwweekly.com/content.asp?article=169)
If that link doesn't work, try this:
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:3h ... 9%22&hl=en (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:3hSNrjEeHggJ:www.fwweekly.com/content.asp%3Farticle%3D169+%22www.fwweekly.com/content.asp%3Farticle%3D169%22&hl=en)
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Hi, It's me the original poster again. I am overwhelmed with the responses I have received thus far. I had no idea I was opening a can of worms with this.
There are so many posts, & I want to thank each of you for your shared expeiences, theories & advice. I would like to touch on some of the posts specifically though...
Antigen, you suggested using the money we would spend on an RTC to go on a vacation to try to help my daughter improve.... We are not wealthy people at all. My husband is a laborer & I am a full time mom, part time worker. We squeak by on less than $36,000.00 a year WITH 3 kids. If we send our daughter to an RTC it will be at a great expense & financial sacrifice. Most of the programs I have seen cost more per month, than we make. We will have to take out loans, borrow money, get second jobs...we will do all of this in an instant if it is what my daughter needs to regain her life. I won't hesitate to mortgage my very soul to help my daughter. I don't think it is as simple as a few weeks on a beach though. If it were that easy, I would be on a plane tonight.
Anonymous wrote of her experiences with LSD...I am sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that my daughter has never done LSD. She does not drink or use any drugs at all. We have had her tested at the MD office in the past (as a routine exam), I realize the test for LSD is more complicated, but I can rest assured she has never used any drugs. Call it mother's intuition, call it naiveity, but I am sure. LSD is not the cause of her auditory hallucinations.
As a teen I also had a WILD time with drugs..LSD, cocaine, pot, shrooms, pills, alcohol, etc...
My daughter & I talk openly about drugs & the dangers of them. She has seen first hand (extended family) what the ravages of drug addiction look like.
Someone else (I'm sorry I don't know who) had suggested or pasted an article that possibly her "voices" were a "shame voice" or basically an internal monologue. That is also an interesting theory. My husband & I have discussed this at great length. Her voices are not "shaming" her. They direct her to do things (i.e. cut your arm, cut your leg, push the baby down, kill this person, etc...), they also add to & reinforce all of her paranoid delusions. I must say *****SHE IS NOT ACTIVELY HOMICIDAL AT THIS TIME*****, she has been in the past & was hospitalized IMMEDIATELY. She has not been homicidal since. I don't feel like this is an internal monologue or her subconscious. It has a different feel to it.
Ginger & Buzz Kill, yes, these are new symptoms. We have been dealing with all of these behaviors for approx. 7 months. Her depression has been going on longer (about 2 years), but the suicidal ideation/attempt, self mutilation, hallucinations, etc...have been going on for only 7 months. The EXTREME lying & deceit has only been going on for about 2 months.
It is all so sudden. I went to sleep with a "normal" teen ager & woke up with a very disturbed child. Granted this didn't happen over night, but it seems that way to us.
Alot happened during the first few months of the fall of 2004...she left a very small catholic grade school (she had been there 8 years) & began attending a public high school with more than 1400 students. She started her first year of high school, she had her first REAL crush on a boy, she found an entirely new group of peers (none of her classmantes from grade school went to her high school), she started undergoing EXTENSIVE medical testing for an endocrine problem, she began to enjoy the fun & new freedom of high school (going out to movies with friends ONLY, no parents, going to party's, going to dances, etc..), she suffered the death of a very close family member to suicide, she disclosed past sexual abuse, the list goes on & on. Any one of those things is enough for a teenager to have difficulty dealing with, all of those things combined in such rapid succession is too much for anyone to go through. We have looked into a hormonal link to the problems she is having. Her hormone levels are not at all in line. I will spare you the details, but she is missing some VERY important hormones in her body..they simply do not exist. She has VERY HIGH levels of other hormones that are not supposed to be that high.
As I mentioned earlier in a different post, they cannot adjust her hormone levels with medication, because her psychosis spins out of control when ever they adjust anything. She becomes VERY DANGEROUS to herself & others. They can't effectively deal with her in the hospital when she is like this. Her pediatric gyn. & psychiatrist are working together along with an endocrinologist to try & stabilize her.
here is their plan...Try to stabilize the psychosis (i.e. quiet the voices & paranoia), elevate her mood with anti depressants, get her out of the woods so to speak & then VERY SLOWLY & VERY CAREFULLY add 1 hormone at a time. They will monitor her inpatient as they do this. They are not at all sure this is the cause of her mental illness, but it is a theory.
In the mean time we will continue therapy, family, medications, etc... If her symptoms exacerbate we will treat them accordingly.
As I said earlier, this is only a theory...a good one, but who knows?
There is also the theory that depression runs in my family, as does mental illness. I was spared (thankfully), but possibly she was not.
There is the theory that she is genetically predisposed to mental illness & all of these things triggered her. I have read that Borderline can be triggered in adolescence due to hormones, stress, new environment, etc..., This article indicated that Borderline tends to "flair up" at pretty predictable times (start of high school, college, getting married, having 1st child).
If this is what we are seeing, then she needs treatment & tools to better her quality of life.
Timoclea, you are a wealth of information & I thank you for your input on the medical end of the spectrum.
Deborah, you have also given valuable info. & I thank you for your input on the alternative end of the spectrum.
Thanks again everybody.
Concerned Mom
As her parent I have to look at every possible theory & every possible treatment option.
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Oh, I forgot to add....
7 months ago when all of this started, my daughter under went what is called a "progesterone challenge" (this was a test performed by her ped. gyn & endo. doc)... she was given LARGE amounts of progesterone for 10 days. After the 10th day, you sit back & see how your body will respond (their is medical neccessity to this, I will spare you the gory details).
My daughter took the progesterone for the prescribed 10 days & then stopped. 3 days after stopping she began self mutilating & having suicidal ideations. I told her ped gyn about this & their response was basically "bullshit"...it is not caused by this test & you need to take care of business at home (bad mom).
After a 2 weeks or so, things settled back down. She was still depressed, but not actively self mutilating or having suicidal ideations.
Then they wanted to start her on Hormone replacement therapy...she started & with in 5 days her symptoms started again...suicidal, cutting,deeper depression, etc...
I again called the ped gyn & she again said NO WAY.
My daughter's psychiatrist discontinued all hormonal meds. & told us to steer clear of them in the future without his consent & constant monitoring. We have steered clear of them, but the symptoms persist.
One of my daughter's therapist indicated that there could be a link here (it could be coincidence)..& if all of her troubles, psychosis, etc... have been triggered by the hormones, that it is unfortunate, because it would not be reversible. The neurotransmitters, neural pathways, brain chemicals, etc... had been pemanenetly altered.Once the switch has been flipped, you can't un flip it. She has had an MRI & a CT Scan of her brain.
Yes we can improve it, treat it, make it easier to deal with...but never un do it. Never "cure" her.
Again, This is just another theory out there...it could all be coincidental.
In all the research I have done about it, It sounds a whole lot like post partum psychosis (not regular post partum depression)(no she was ot pregnant, or have an abortion).
The biggest difference between my daughter & post partum is, post partum psychosis is reversible.
I have tried to research hormone induced depression, hormone induced psychosis...no luck. I can't find anything out there. Most doctors won't talk to me about it, because they think it could end in a law suit if I find the right information.
I don't want to sue anybody, I want answers & i want my daughter to get better.
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One more tidbit, based on my recent personal experience.
I'm peri-menopausal. I have resisted getting onto the estrogen/progesterone see-saw- trying to balance these two hormones correctly.
Here's what my doc told me, fwiw.
The majority of women have problems with estrogen dominance, for a number of reasons.
The body produces hormones when needed. When no longer needed they should normally be eliminated via the liver. If the liver is not working optimally and those hormones cycle through the body all month, you will have problems.
Bottomline, treat the liver so it can eliminate hormones when they are no longer needed.
I am taking Emulsified Cod Liver Oil and have had excellent results!!! Which also is good for the brain.
There are many concerns re: HRT. Equally complicated, in terms of balancing is fiddling with neurotransmitters- seritonin- even when you are using a natural supplement like 5 HTP. If the seritonin doesn't cross the BBB and builds up in the body, one risks developing cardiovascular disease. Too much estrogen, breast/ovarian cancer.
There are safer ways to address these issues.
There are other causes of estrogent dominance as well. Do a search for xeno-estrogens, if you're interested in discovering where she may be acquiring additional, and harmful, estrogen from the foods she's eating and/or the environment. Two big offenders- food microwaved in plastic and certain foods that are canned. Don't take this lightly. This was discovered in Florida when they noticed male alligators had been feminized due to some toxic waste that had been dumped in this particular swamp. It also explains why so many men are growing breast and have low sperm count and why women are having a higher incidence of breast/ovarian cancer.
My research shows that this modern life is slowing killing us and making us crazy.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-04-14 05:22 ]
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Dear Concerned Mom,
My heart goes out to you. Sounds like you know more than anybody about your daughter's situation. THAT I can relate to. One of my daughters was critically ill for an extended period. As good and competent and diligent as her medical care providers have been, there is just NOthing like having an advocate right there, helping w/ communication, reading up on everything that's done or even discussed. Sounds like you're right on top of that.
Now, none of us are medical/psyche professionals. Deb and Timoclea are both pretty knowledgable and have probably given you some good leads on valuable info. But your original question was about RTC. I'm not a professional on that either. But here's the upshot, neither are they! The only reasonably well done study on that method of treatment was done fairly recently by NIDA. And it concluded that RTC style therapy outcomes range from useless to harmful. Bear that in mind along with your own common sense about the potential harm that can come from yet another upheaval, being removed from family and friends (good or bad, new or old) and normal life.
As hard as things are for your family now, putting aside the unbelievable promises you may hear and read from various edcons and program operators (because they're too good to be true and actually are not true), you're probably doing the best that can be done already. There is no magic. If you can't handle your daughter's needs at home w/ the support you describe from local health and mental health professionals, then there's NO chance that strangers in some other state w/ no real expertise will do a better job.
Most of these places that we discuss around here have a nifty trick for dealing w/ mentally ill kids. They stick them in solitary or some other highly restrictive environment, lie to you outright about how the kid is doing and simply don't allow them to talk to you till they tow the line. Though the brochures and sales reps will gladly tell you that this is just a matter of a couple of weeks, it can often drag on for months and months. I've heard of no contact for over a year in some cases.
If that doesn't work, why they just blame the kid. The kid refused to work the program and so, when they kick them out or envoke the "exit plan", it's all the kid's fault and you, having paid the bill, attended the seminars and put your whole family in hock for years, can view yourself as blameless and enjoy a whole chorous of other families to reenforce that view of things.
On that one simple question about RTCs, my simple answer is RUN! They're not equipped to handle a situation such as you describe. And they'll lie convincingly about it because they truely believe that their mojo is a cure for whatever ails ya'.
On the brighter side, this girl is only 14. She's still growing up. If the medical professionals were wrong about the cuase of her problems, they may well be wrong about its permanency as well. Just keep questioning and reading up. But don't send the girl away to a place where you can't check on her, the facility and anyone who has contact w/ her daily. Step 1. We came to understand that the government is powerless over people's private use of drugs and that the War on Drugs was making the government's life unmanageable.
--Scott Tillinghast
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I will second all this.
Been there, Done That
On 2005-04-14 08:40:00, Antigen wrote:
"Dear Concerned Mom,
My heart goes out to you. Sounds like you know more than anybody about your daughter's situation. THAT I can relate to. One of my daughters was critically ill for an extended period. As good and competent and diligent as her medical care providers have been, there is just NOthing like having an advocate right there, helping w/ communication, reading up on everything that's done or even discussed. Sounds like you're right on top of that.
Now, none of us are medical/psyche professionals. Deb and Timoclea are both pretty knowledgable and have probably given you some good leads on valuable info. But your original question was about RTC. I'm not a professional on that either. But here's the upshot, neither are they! The only reasonably well done study on that method of treatment was done fairly recently by NIDA. And it concluded that RTC style therapy outcomes range from useless to harmful. Bear that in mind along with your own common sense about the potential harm that can come from yet another upheaval, being removed from family and friends (good or bad, new or old) and normal life.
As hard as things are for your family now, putting aside the unbelievable promises you may hear and read from various edcons and program operators (because they're too good to be true and actually are not true), you're probably doing the best that can be done already. There is no magic. If you can't handle your daughter's needs at home w/ the support you describe from local health and mental health professionals, then there's NO chance that strangers in some other state w/ no real expertise will do a better job.
Most of these places that we discuss around here have a nifty trick for dealing w/ mentally ill kids. They stick them in solitary or some other highly restrictive environment, lie to you outright about how the kid is doing and simply don't allow them to talk to you till they tow the line. Though the brochures and sales reps will gladly tell you that this is just a matter of a couple of weeks, it can often drag on for months and months. I've heard of no contact for over a year in some cases.
If that doesn't work, why they just blame the kid. The kid refused to work the program and so, when they kick them out or envoke the "exit plan", it's all the kid's fault and you, having paid the bill, attended the seminars and put your whole family in hock for years, can view yourself as blameless and enjoy a whole chorous of other families to reenforce that view of things.
On that one simple question about RTCs, my simple answer is RUN! They're not equipped to handle a situation such as you describe. And they'll lie convincingly about it because they truely believe that their mojo is a cure for whatever ails ya'.
On the brighter side, this girl is only 14. She's still growing up. If the medical professionals were wrong about the cuase of her problems, they may well be wrong about its permanency as well. Just keep questioning and reading up. But don't send the girl away to a place where you can't check on her, the facility and anyone who has contact w/ her daily. Step 1. We came to understand that the government is powerless over people's private use of drugs and that the War on Drugs was making the government's life unmanageable.
--Scott Tillinghast
"
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... They stick them in solitary or some other highly restrictive environment, lie to you outright about how the kid is doing and simply don't allow them to talk to you till they tow the line. Though the brochures and sales reps will gladly tell you that this is just a matter of a couple of weeks, it can often drag on for months and months. I've heard of no contact for over a year in some cases.
If that doesn't work, why they just blame the kid. The kid refused to work the program and so, when they kick them out or envoke the "exit plan", it's all the kid's fault and you, having paid the bill, attended the seminars and put your whole family in hock for years, can view yourself as blameless and enjoy a whole chorous of other families to reenforce that view of things.
...But don't send the girl away to a place where you can't check on her, the facility and anyone who has contact w/ her daily.
Also a Been There-Done That survivor, whose child experienced this exact situation, including the nearly-a-year without contact with the outside world, including parents.
On a very simple gut level (way simpler than the psychological problems you are dealing with), a great strength you can give to your child is...Just Be There for Her. A constant behind all the attempts you and her medical professionals make is the fact that YOU are doing something, not off-loading, especially to rank amateurs with an evil bag of tricks.
One of my child's (custodial grandaughter, actually) greatest struggles now, 18 months after returning from an abusive RTC and coming to live with us, is the crippling feeling of lack of trust and "how could she do this to me?" response to her mother's actions. The mother cannot admit she made a mistake, a lot because that mistake was an "informed" one, a choice between her new husband/The Wicked Stepfather and her daughter.
Everyone wants a parent. If you understand that that parent is a toxic relationship for you, it still does not lessen the wish for a parent. As Grandpa and I work to help our kid reaffirm her goodness (after a good job of character assasination by the RTC for her formative 14th year), our stumbles and ups-and-downs are always cushioned by the fact that we are there for her. It means a lot.
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To Concerned Mom:
Without getting into the issue to medicate or not to medicate, let me express one concern with a RTC and a child suffering with mental illness. The whole premise of RTC therapy revolves around conformity and obeying the rules above all else. The completing the different levels will depend upon her following all rules from sleep to food restrictions. (Obviously each facility has different rules I choose those as examples only). This environment is IMHO especially unhealthy for a child with more than an attitude and experimenting with alcohol. I have seen first hand the damage my RTC did to a friend who had schizophrenia. She was told repeatedly to "quit trying to get attention". She often said she felt crazy and different from us (her illness never was diagnosed while she was in the program) to which she was told to "get over it she wasn't that unique". Believe me her parents were told she just wasn't willing to comply. Since they couldn't see her without supervision they had no idea what was really going on.
Mental illness can not be addressed and treated by rules and conformity. I bet none of your doctors have made her stand in a line with other ill patients for an hour until they got it completely straight. Or told her if she didn't quit talking about her imaginary voices her food would be restricted to nearly starvation. Sounds ridiculous I know but this was how my RTC wanted to help my friend. Most simply are not equipped to deal with true mental illness. They are holding tanks for rebellious kids and fed up parents about 95% of the time.
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This is a portion from a sworn statement made by a survivor of a "Christian" behavior modification facility. I think it shows how these facilities deal with children who have legitimate mental problems:
"There was a girl who I wasn?t supposed to notice because she was on buddy as well [that] had gone mentally crazy. When I first arrived she was fine. I can remember her sitting in the bathroom thinking that she was talking on the phone to her family. For about two weeks she was hel[d] in what they called the closet area. They only fed her cold baked beans and cold oatmeal. They let her shower twice a week. [One night in chapel] she started talking and rambling on and on. One of the Helpers told her she needed to be quiet. She wasn?t listening. The staff told about three girls to sit on her. While they were sitting on her she kept saying, ?- h my God? over and over. The girls were told by staff to sit on her harder and restrain her from talking. When her parents finally did pick her up one of the staff ladies told me that upon going home she was admitted to the psychiatric ward."
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Here is an example from the "agreements" section of a full-time restriction, duration of one week, in one of the programs. Comments?
"Theme: Empathy (the other persons perspective) and Self Control when others wrong you.
Agreements:
You are restricted to a table during all free time?You must have staff permission to leave the table for ANY reason,
Only this restriction book and/or academics material may be at your table?NO BOOKS
There is no smiling, laughing, singing or hugging,
Do NOT talk to people from your table without written permission from staff including the name of who you will be talking to,
You must have a Challenge Up student accompany you to and from the dorm at all times,
There will be no conversation in the Dorm,
You Must be escorted by a Challenge up student at all times while outside the house, (it is your responsibility to find those willing to walk with you)"
On 2005-04-14 12:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"To Concerned Mom:
Without getting into the issue to medicate or not to medicate, let me express one concern with a RTC and a child suffering with mental illness. The whole premise of RTC therapy revolves around conformity and obeying the rules above all else. The completing the different levels will depend upon her following all rules from sleep to food restrictions. (Obviously each facility has different rules I choose those as examples only). This environment is IMHO especially unhealthy for a child with more than an attitude and experimenting with alcohol. I have seen first hand the damage my RTC did to a friend who had schizophrenia. She was told repeatedly to "quit trying to get attention". She often said she felt crazy and different from us (her illness never was diagnosed while she was in the program) to which she was told to "get over it she wasn't that unique". Believe me her parents were told she just wasn't willing to comply. Since they couldn't see her without supervision they had no idea what was really going on.
Mental illness can not be addressed and treated by rules and conformity. I bet none of your doctors have made her stand in a line with other ill patients for an hour until they got it completely straight. Or told her if she didn't quit talking about her imaginary voices her food would be restricted to nearly starvation. Sounds ridiculous I know but this was how my RTC wanted to help my friend. Most simply are not equipped to deal with true mental illness. They are holding tanks for rebellious kids and fed up parents about 95% of the time."
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Wow, well I was just surfing back into the old posts and I found this... I would like to say I have highly, highly impressed with every one that rallyed around this concerned mother who came to us with her issues. The information you all gave was wonderful and accurate, and she was not blasted for being a bad parent, she was not attacked in anyway, you guys are great truely.