Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Barton on April 09, 2005, 02:56:00 AM
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Dear Readers,
I recently had a niece put in this academy.She is now into her next facilitated program.She is involved in Drugs,sex and Rebelion against her Mother and Father.They are very conservative Christian people. Fire and brimstone for the sinners of the world.
After giving you people a little background check,can any one tell me any thing about this place she was in? The things she told me troubled me.The things I have read on this Forum about that place trouble me more than ever!
I have made a few calls and inquired concerning the facilaty.I have recieved a few E-mails stating that they have terminated several of the scholls in mexico.Is this true? I have allso been talking with a young girl named AKA "viva" a past student.I would appriciate it if anyone could give me a heads up on what she is saying to be true!!
Thank you,
Barton
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Nothing but good stuff for our family!
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where is she?
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If she's not at ALA any more, but some where else, shouldn't you be checking out the place she is currently? Where is she now?
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On 2005-04-08 23:56:00, Barton wrote:
"
Dear Readers,
I recently had a niece put in this academy.She is now into her next facilitated program.She is involved in Drugs,sex and Rebelion against her Mother and Father.They are very conservative Christian people. Fire and brimstone for the sinners of the world.
After giving you people a little background check,can any one tell me any thing about this place she was in? The things she told me troubled me.The things I have read on this Forum about that place trouble me more than ever!
I have made a few calls and inquired concerning the facilaty.I have recieved a few E-mails stating that they have terminated several of the scholls in mexico.Is this true? I have allso been talking with a young girl named AKA "viva" a past student.I would appriciate it if anyone could give me a heads up on what she is saying to be true!!
Thank you,
Barton "
ALA is a Christian based program for troubled teens. Before you give much consideration to anything that "Viva" has to say, please know that "Viva" is a runaway who had all the same problems you describe your niece as having. "Viva" was in ALA, but choose a life of rebellion instead of acknowledging her actions.
"Viva" herself is still in need of much help, although she will not admit it.
ALA is a safe place. The people who run it really do care about the kids they are trying to help.
The program no longer operates out of Mexico, that is true.
While not a fire and brimstone person myself, I do believe that drugs are wrong, sex outside of marriage (to someone of the opposite sex) is immoral, and that rebellion against one's parents is wrong (the Bible does refere to rebelliousness as being as that of witchcraft).
If you want to help your niece, please show a united front and support her parents. I am sure it was a very difficult decision for them to place her in a program.
However, just as with any problem, the first step to recovery is to be able to admit you have a problem and that you need help. Her parents have done that. Please support them in their efforts to get help for their daughter before it is too late.
"Viva" cannot give you answers to your questions, as she is biased against the program. Her parents tried to get help for her, but other family members were not supportive and as a result, "Viva" has gotten mixed messages. She truly needs prayers.
Your niece's parents are to be commended for taking this first step on the road to recovery from the problems that your niece's actions have created.
God bless.
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Oh Dear, Church Lady is back.
Barton, you may want to read this thread to get a different perspective of this person's accusations about Viva:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#66033 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6837&forum=9&start=0#66033)
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Hrm...
Ever considered that how conservative they are might be why shes rebelling so much?
If you restrict someone too much they will fight to get away as hard as they can. Its not the natural state of a human being to be utterly controled and have dogma shoved in their head.
But hey, conservatives always think they ARE RIGHT and that if you dont agree you ARE WRONG. Plus their religion is playing into the whole mentality of their utter correctness.
When shes 18 she'll probably be fine. I can say that programs are guaranteed to be at best enforced boredom and captivity, and at worst torment and scarring for life.
Sex and rebellion as a teenager is normal, I'm sorry to say. You can believe in whatever you want but the fact is people are programmed to get a libido and want to be independant and not-controlled when adolescence starts. Its nature. Belief structures cant change REALITY, just YOUR reality.
And yeah, drugs? What kind of drugs? Booze and pot? OH NO! If it was harder shit and she was addicted, yeah, get greatment, but go through the proper means and order first. Ugh. Never just send to a program because your girl is growing up and you cant handle it. If she has a ACTUAL drug addiction problem seek treatment for that - out patient or a day program. Get therapy.
Programs are a UTTER, TOTAL last resort, and most of them arent even really helpful for anyone than the parents desire to have their teen be a kid. Duct tape is like the force; it has a light side and a dark side and it holds the universe together.
--Jedi Knight school drop out.
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Barton, in making your decision about ALA and whether or not to be influenced by the rantings of hostile individuals, please take the following into consideration:
Proverbs 1:7, 10, 15, 22, 30, 31, 32
Proverbs 3: 7, 11
Proverbs 4:19, 24
Proverbs 5:23
Proverbs 9:10
Proverbs 10:23, 32
Proverbs 11:21
And, my favorite as it applies to those who have jumped on Viva's band wagon,
Proverbs 12:1 "Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid."
Only the Lord's opinions, reflected throughout the Bible, are what matters. Not my opinions, and not any of you who are so hostile toward anyone who thinks differently than you do.
Barton, you will have to determine for yourself. A clue to the matter is, however, do you believe it is right to rebel against authority or do you believe that you are to submit to authority? The Bible has a lot to say about that as well.
The bad things happening in our country are in no small part a result of people rebelling against authority. And that starts in the home, with children rebelling against their parents. There is a whole group of individuals here who would have you believe that it is ok to rebel. It is not. The jail systems are full of people who have rebelled against authority.
What is worse than the child rebelling, is the adults who encourage the rebelling and tell the child that it is ok. Those of you who have done this will answer to the Lord. Not to me. Not to each other. To the Lord.
However, if those of you with the bad attitudes and rebellious spirits would like for me to refrain from expressing my opinions, then, stop with the negative stuff about the school. Just because it is not the choice you would have made, does not mean it is not correct for someone else.
There seems to be a lot of double standards. It is ok for you all to express your opinions, yet you don't like it when someone else does.
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On 2005-04-08 23:56:00, Barton wrote:
"
Dear Readers,
I recently had a niece put in this academy.She is now into her next facilitated program.She is involved in Drugs,sex and Rebelion against her Mother and Father.They are very conservative Christian people. Fire and brimstone for the sinners of the world.
After giving you people a little background check,can any one tell me any thing about this place she was in? The things she told me troubled me.The things I have read on this Forum about that place trouble me more than ever!
I have made a few calls and inquired concerning the facilaty.I have recieved a few E-mails stating that they have terminated several of the scholls in mexico.Is this true? I have allso been talking with a young girl named AKA "viva" a past student.I would appriciate it if anyone could give me a heads up on what she is saying to be true!!
Thank you,
Barton "
Viva is being slandered by the other poster. This "runaway" is 18 years old and has simply moved out, rented her own place, gotten a job, and is pursuing school.
If she's a bit wild, it's an understandable rebound after what she went through, which would unsettle anyone.
She's 18. If she wants to cut loose for a bit, it ain't nobody's business if she does.
If *I* had been through what she's been through *I* certainly would be using my newfound majority to thumb my nose at the idiots who had had me shipped to Mexico and incarcerated me in a private prison run by jesus freaks.
Genuine people of faith get a tremendous amount of my respect, no matter the religion or sect. The people at ALA are, in my opinion, more than a bit over the edge from "sincere" into downright weird.
I base this on the rantings posted on Fornits by Craig of ALA, who was the head honcho running the place. You can't diagnose over the internet, and I'm not saying he necessarily *is*---but he *sounded* way past eccentric and flat out into delusional city. Not in the 'burbs of the metro area, but right downtown across from city hall.
Maybe he isn't. Maybe he lost it and wasn't being himself. Maybe his rantings weren't representative of who he really is. I don't know if you can search Fornits on the screen name "Word of Wisdom," but that was him.
His apparent loopiness is why I believe Viva. I've also talked to Viva's grandmother. Viva may not be a perfect little angel, but she's not a lot more screwed up than I was at 18, and I turned out a responsible, married for ten years, been living in our own house--same one--for six years, mom of a 9 year old daughter, published author, middle-aged suburban "soccer mom" housewife.
I'm not perfect, and I've got my problems, but I get by in life.
I don't think it's quite fair to judge an 18 year old who's had as much turmoil in her life as Viva has (a fair bit of the story has come out on Fornits now and again) by the standards of those of us who are in our thirties or forties and have settled in as frumpy, stodgy, happy, old marrieds.
If I wasn't as discombobulated as Viva at 18--and in many ways I was more confused and wild and dangerous, I was just good at hiding it---I *also* hadn't been uprooted out of high school and shipped out of the country and spent way too long among some people who seem to me to be really, really bizarre, and then had to be rescued by my grandmother.
Yes, she left her grandmother's house and moved out slightly before--coupla months--her 18th birthday. Big fat hairy deal.
Viva is a nice young lady who is recovering from a very bad experience in an entirely normal and typical way. When she gets a little more time between her and what happened to her, she's probably going to be fine.
But the jesus freaks will never admit she's fine because she won't be a jesus freak clone of them. They'll always see her as a "rebellious runaway" no matter how old she gets because that's how they are. Or at least, that's my perception from what I've seen of them---and we have, unfortunately, seen the various anti-Viva jesus freaks posting quite a lot over the time since she got sent away.
Timoclea...it is worth discussing radical changes, not in the expectation that they will be adopted promptly but for two other reasons. One is to construct an ideal goal, so that incremental changes can be judged by whether they move the institutional structure toward or away from that ideal. The other reason is very different. It is so that if a crisis requiring or facilitating radical change does arise, alternatives will be available that have been carefully developed and fully explored."
Milton Friedman
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On 2005-04-10 18:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Barton, in making your decision about ALA and whether or not to be influenced by the rantings of hostile individuals, please take the following into consideration:
Proverbs 1:7, 10, 15, 22, 30, 31, 32
Proverbs 3: 7, 11
Proverbs 4:19, 24
Proverbs 5:23
Proverbs 9:10
Proverbs 10:23, 32
Proverbs 11:21
And, my favorite as it applies to those who have jumped on Viva's band wagon,
Proverbs 12:1 "Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid."
Only the Lord's opinions, reflected throughout the Bible, are what matters. Not my opinions, and not any of you who are so hostile toward anyone who thinks differently than you do.
Barton, you will have to determine for yourself. A clue to the matter is, however, do you believe it is right to rebel against authority or do you believe that you are to submit to authority? The Bible has a lot to say about that as well.
The bad things happening in our country are in no small part a result of people rebelling against authority. And that starts in the home, with children rebelling against their parents. There is a whole group of individuals here who would have you believe that it is ok to rebel. It is not. The jail systems are full of people who have rebelled against authority.
What is worse than the child rebelling, is the adults who encourage the rebelling and tell the child that it is ok. Those of you who have done this will answer to the Lord. Not to me. Not to each other. To the Lord.
However, if those of you with the bad attitudes and rebellious spirits would like for me to refrain from expressing my opinions, then, stop with the negative stuff about the school. Just because it is not the choice you would have made, does not mean it is not correct for someone else.
There seems to be a lot of double standards. It is ok for you all to express your opinions, yet you don't like it when someone else does.
"
Okay, perfect case in point about these people being freaky delusional idiots.
Viva is 18 years old, but this woman (tone of writing sounds female, anyway) is intent on describing her as a rebellious child.
This woman is so detached from reality that she can't even admit that Viva is 18 years old and legally an adult and is *not* rebelling against the jesus freak woman's authority because She Has None.
The only authority with a legitimate claim on Viva is the same laws of the land that you and I have to follow.
I wish the woman would take a handle, because even if the descriptor I'm using *is* descriptive of her (as it so obviously is), I hate to get the backs up of real Christians by seeming to disrespect their faith. My father's a Church of Christ preacher, and my husband's uncle is a Presbyterian minister. You know, people say Church of Christ is "out there" and I admit that its beliefs are sometimes on the unusual side with respect to the various denominations of Christianity, but they're pikers compared to these people.
But this woman is a perfect example of what I was talking about. She is, figuratively, moved right in with Craig in the condo across from City Hall in Delusion City. Or, well, I don't mean to imply them shacking up or anything---maybe it's better to describe her as his next door neighbor? She comes across as just plain loopy to me.
If an 18 year old isn't an adult with authority over her own life, what's jesus freak lady's deal? Are women chattel to her with lifelong obedience obligations to someone or other? Or are offspring supposed to be in lifelong thrall to their parents wishes and whims even after they're grown? Or does she just have some personally-selected age of majority locked away in her head unbeknownst to the rest of us? Or is *anyone* no matter what age who doesn't agree with *her* religion a "rebellious child"? Or is the woman just flat delusional to the point that she doesn't *realize* Viva is 18 years old?
Whatever, she's *weird*.
TimocleaAs a rule, children love their parents, believe what they teach, and take great pride in saying that the religion of mother is good enough for them.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
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On 2005-04-08 23:56:00, Barton wrote:
"
Dear Readers,
I recently had a niece put in this academy.She is now into her next facilitated program.She is involved in Drugs,sex and Rebelion against her Mother and Father.They are very conservative Christian people. Fire and brimstone for the sinners of the world.
After giving you people a little background check,can any one tell me any thing about this place she was in? The things she told me troubled me.The things I have read on this Forum about that place trouble me more than ever!
I have made a few calls and inquired concerning the facilaty.I have recieved a few E-mails stating that they have terminated several of the scholls in mexico.Is this true? I have allso been talking with a young girl named AKA "viva" a past student.I would appriciate it if anyone could give me a heads up on what she is saying to be true!!
Thank you,
Barton "
Barton--I can't give you the lowdown on ALA except to tell you to look at its advocates and how bizarre they are. *My* parents are very conservative Christians. Church of Christ basically believes they aren't a denomination, they're "The Church"--the whole thing---and that pretty much everybody else is going to Hell.
But while my parents are very sincerely faithful people, they don't go around praying out loud in public like Pharisees--which is basically how the ALA types come across to me. There's a difference between letting your light shine and making a big show of your faith to be seen by men.
Now that I think about it, the Pharisees are the perfect metaphor for the ALA people. They're real big on telling you what *other* people are doing wrong, they're very ostentatious about how pious they are, they're very proud of being "not like that publican over there," they're very interested in what's in their neighbor's eye while being awfully quiet about what's in their own. Somehow, I don't think Jesus would have liked the ALA people very much.
Can you picture the lady with all the quotes sitting in her bedroom quietly praying, "Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner." Can you picture that? And picture her meaning it? Because I sure can't.
Every real Christian I know wouldn't mouth pious platitudes about Viva, but would say, "Well, she's grown now, and I can't know her heart. I hope she winds up okay." and would let it go.
The term "whited sepulchre" comes to mind.
TimocleaI swear by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
* - ~ Galt's Creed ~ - *
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she's not 18!
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Yanno, now that everyone's mouthed their polite piece, its my turn. :grin:
That jesus freak woman gives a bad name to christians and delusion is the word of the day, 100%. Shes spewing scripture and clinging to her faith like a monkey to a tree in a windstorm of reality.
The bottom line is she was put in a bullshit program for bullshit reasons by bullshit parents. And this new church lady is bullshitting everyone here by thinking that this girl needs to go back to mum after 1. ABANDONING HER 2. treating her like shit by doing so... aaaand 3. the girl's obviously gotten out and is doing A-OKAY on her own. There is no need WHATSOEVER for her to go back to that absolutely dispicable mother of hers except for the sensibilities of that DELUDED churchlady who obviously is as clingy to her own kids.
I desperately hope her own kids manage to run away before they get put into Craig's little Davidian compound, or lie low until 18 and scram.
Yeah thats right, I said that to you, you fucking bitch. Go jump off a cliff and get closer to that god you believe in so he can tell you how much shit you're full of. You're blatantly too far gone to be deprogrammed by any reasonable means (like a discussion) so as far as I care you can go fuck yourself with a big hard cross! (no offence to reasonable Christians or any minors who stumbled on this post!)
That program is bullshit, and I'd argue ANY program that requires holding the child incommunicado and captive is bullshit, Craig is full of it, any program that forces religious dogma into the children is bullshit, and so are you! You seriously need a new outlet for your SELFISH, psychotic maternal instincts than trying to bible-thump Amanda back to her parents after the fuck-over they tried to give her with that fuck Craig in ALA.
Shes doing FINE on her own? WHY would she need to go back? Dont give me more scripture, give me a fucking answer! Programs are for kids who need help, she doesnt need any. She shouldnt go back to her parents unless she WANTS to, and I dont see why the hell she would after the stunt they pulled!
Also, to anyone else who saw me just vent on this woman - sorry. But hopefully I've scared her off the forum so she wont bug us anymore.
P.S. - http://www.divine-interventions.com/index2.php (http://www.divine-interventions.com/index2.php) <- jackhammer jesus would be just *PERFECT* for this lady to 'feel the lord' :grin: "...In general, it's just an overall sign in America that there doesn't seem to be as much respect for authority figures, and that's a bad trend. It just strikes me that people can say whatever they want to and get away with it, and that's not good."
--But David Murrell, exec. dir. of the Florida Police Benevolent Association
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I'm typing anonymously because I don't have a lot of time for forums..well, more like I completely forget about forums and then I come back and feel bad for wasting their time.
Anyways about this thing. I went to a center myself but was never abused, I suppose I was really lucky. However, we had this one particular staff member who was fairly religious. She wasn't too bad at first, but eventually she tried to force these things on us. I was reading a book about buddhism and she said it's interesting but total fiction. I told her that I felt that way about the bible...and got sent to my room for 2 hours. Talk about unfair.
Anyways, I find that organized religion, christian ones in particular (especially catholic) are a form of mind control. The ones who just have faith and pray aren't so bad, they just want to believe in something.
Then you get into people trying to force you into it and them being highly evil.
So many things reflect the total mind-control poison that the church really is. Everyone mourned over the pope, but what people failed to ever mention was that he announced that birth control is a sin and other such dubious thoughts. The church has been the source of a lot of history's darkest periods. The crusades is a pretty good example. I'm sure that new movie, "Kingdom of Heaven" will make it look like the people the English were slaughtering were evil and deserving...when it's the complete opposite. Many of the people murdered during the crusades were *not* evil, they just didn't hold the same level of faith, or any faith at all.
What about all those child molestation scandals that are surfacing more and more? If a priest can do something as horrible as that, I don't think people should be blindly following these people.
A more recent thing was a movie called "Volcanoes of the Deep", an Imax film, is not being shown in the southern united states. Why? Because it mentions evolution. There hasn't been complaints but these science centers and theatres won't show it because they are afraid of major backlash..which is a total shame on the scientific community.
Anyways, these fundamentalist christians are starting to drive me crazy. With Bush in power they seem to have quite a bit more power and voice than before. I live in *canada* and I still get affected by this stuff.
What I've always found ironic is that many people preach the teachings of the bible, while totalling violating it. There is a group in the USA called "God Hates Fags", horrible isn't it? Doesn't the bible say something about oh...Not judging one's fellow man? Isn't doing so a *sin*? Even if it's not a hellworthy sin, it's still pretty terrible.
I'm also sick of the religious community imposing on absolutely everything. Abortion is a big issue with them. Personally, I think someone should be able to have the choice, not every woman gets pregnant by fault of hers (rape anyone?). Saying abortion is a sin because you're "killing babies" is total BS. Many would disagree but a foetus is not exactly a living, sentient being until well into the pregnancy. The heartbeat starts at 20 weeks or so, but that doesn't exactly mean it's alive. Besides, if one of these nuts was raped and was impregnated..would they REALLY want to have that child? It would constantly remind them of what happened and the child would suffer the consequences.
Also religious people tend to be all about "The children". I agree that children are important and a great asset, but I don't agree with what these people talk about. They restrict their kids from seeing anything violent or sexual, even VAGUELY violent and/or sexual for fear of making them crazy or something.
Movies, games, books, etc do not make someone into a psychopathic killer. The way they are treated, interact and live their lives influences them. There have been countless cases of highly religious people completely abusing their children, heck, some of them have *murdered* their children.
I saw violent movies when I was young, I'm not crazy. I saw porn at 14, I'm not sexually deviant or anything.
Also I've noticed that the school system in the USA is particularily horrible. Ours isn't that great, but I know for a fact they are at least 5x better. Why not put more money into the education of our youth instead of censorship?
I find that because of the political voice these people now have (with the president and a large amount of the government being republican and a lot of those being religious), a great many things are encroaching on the freedom and even the constitution. What I find most disgusting is not the fact that it's happening, it's the fact that most people sit around and *let* it happen. Most of the reasons for these things are paper thin and could be defeated in a debate in 5 minutes. Yet precious few are doing a *thing* about it.
Censoring everything and restricting things fly right in the face of freedom of speech. It seems like you have freedom of speech unless you say something you can't say.
I'm a third-party observer. I live in Canada. On the day of the pope's death the news spoke to the former prime minister and he spoke about him, he also said (very sternly) that he never, ever, mixed religion into his politics. There was also commentary from those who found the pope to be good and those who found him to be bad. I find on american TV, it's always the right wing. "Debates" would frequently be held by a right-winger and a further right-winger. Any left wingers on these programs would be ignored, bashed, interrupted, mocked, etc. I've found it to be absolutely offensive when a news host starts talking *down* to a liberal. Here's a fictional example. "I think that abortion should be left up to the woman." "Oh yeah? Well what about the fact that it's a human being's life?" and usually the left winger would sound somewhat shocked but still retort. I hate it when journalists can't be impartial.
The only good news program I can think of is "Anderson Cooper 360", they do not take sides, they merely report. Shouldn't that be what ALL news be like? Someone apart from the news voicing their opinion is alright, but the news itself voicing it's opinion is downright biased and unfair.
Anyways, sorry about the long and somewhat off-topic rant (here and there). I just wanted to share with you have bad I think religion has gotten and how it really needs to be stopped. I don't mean the church should be taken away, they should just have their *power* taken away. The vatican is much too powerful and influential for it's own good and the government needs to leave out the religion. I'm hoping for all of our sakes, that when a new president is elected, he/she isn't a religious nutbag. I'm also hoping that the next one will focus on *THEIR COUNTRY* instead of everybody else's.
~Cidsa
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I wanted to add that I know it wasn't *just* England, but they were a pretty big part of it. It was a lot of Europe and as Nihilantic says, an alternative to fighting each other.
The injustice was that it was all for religion and the people they slaughtered were "heretics"..AKA Muslims. Sound like anything familiar, hm?
Honestly though, this is the same damn thing as the Muslim Jiihad. They want to crush the heretics and infidels. However, most people think they are just crazy terrorists who do this just to hurt them. Yes it is to hurt them, but there is an actual reason and a lot of this hatred stems WAY back.
Also, I hope to god that woman's kids get the fuck away from her. I bet she'd put them in there just to spite us or something.
I wasn't treated that well by my mother either during my teen years and I was put into a center, when it was really home (mainly stepdad) issues that was causing the problems.
I left at 17 and will never move back there. I don't need to run back to my mommy and I certainly hold no commitment to her. Yeah, she's my mother, but that doesn't mean I have to take her fucking bullshit.
If you didn't notice saying these things are a BAD thing, it says so in your goddamn bible. Go back and read that thing. Also if you didn't notice, the bible is CHOCK FULL of massive amounts of violence, sex, incest, death, war, etc. If everything these days should be censored and kept from kids, the bible should've been the first one to go.
How many people get perverted fantasies and act upon them after reading the bible? Not too many. But there have been quite a few nuts who kill people because god "told them to". Say they are psychotic all you want, besides the murder you are doing the exact same thing.
I agree. This girl is doing absolutely fine on her own. She's living, working, eating, etc. Why the fuck should she go back to a broken home where she was abandoned and sent to hell?
Would YOU fucking go back? I really fucking doubt it.
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amazing how a few scriptures can stir such foul language and hate. And who says Viva is doing so well now? Anyone heard from anyone that knows the truth lately? Those refered to posts are quite old!
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T. Remember there are two sides to every story. You have heard one. And when they lie to you about simple fact, how can you trust that when they talk to you about opinions and feelings that they are truthful? I KNOW "VIVA" has no living biological grandmothers and that both her adopted grandmothers stand with her parents. Whoever you spoke to was not honest about their relationship to the child.
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On 2005-04-10 14:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Viva" cannot give you answers to your questions, as she is biased against the program.
The difference being that "Viva" has actually been in that program whereas you have not. sunday school: A prison in which children do penance for the evil conscience of their parents.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher
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On 2005-04-11 04:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"amazing how a few scriptures can stir such foul language and hate. And who says Viva is doing so well now? Anyone heard from anyone that knows the truth lately? Those refered to posts are quite old!"
Scripture didnt "stir such foul hate" it wast hate asinine church lady spewing sheer unadulterated STUPIDITY.
Using scripture to be a fucking idiot is a good way to piss me off. Using religion to be a moron or to hurt people really pisses Cidsa off. But hey, evin the devil could quote scripture for his purposes. In the end it comes down to what people DO and why they do it, not just what they talk about.
I'm here to help people. I'd wager that church lady is just finding an outlet for her desire to cling to kids and keep them around forever.
Dont fall for "scripture" pissing us off. This bitch butting in where she is not wanted and doesnt belong is what made us mad. Trying to play the god-card just made it worse. Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.
--Rep. Robert L. Henry, TX December 22, 1914 (quoting Lincoln)
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If you want to sound half way intelligent, try a little less "stupid" language. It appears that you only want the opinions of those that agree with you. That is not everyone. I appreciate your "church lady" giving a different opinion and respect her right to do so. Her writing is much less offensive because it contains no profanity. You are helpling no one with that kind of talk. You only make yourself look like an uneducated, foul mouth kid that has nothing to offer but opinions and no facts.
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by the way whatever happened to Barton, the one that started this post? Find your neice? What facility did she end up in?
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On 2005-04-11 04:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"amazing how a few scriptures can stir such foul language and hate. And who says Viva is doing so well now? Anyone heard from anyone that knows the truth lately? Those refered to posts are quite old!"
Yes, I stay in contact with Viva and her grandmother and I know exactly how she's doing, both the ups and the downs.
She is acting like an 18 year old girl who has been betrayed by her adoptive parents, stuck in a private prison in a third world country run by religious fanatics, lost her senior year in said hellhole, and is finally out and free and doesn't have to be afraid of being sent back.
She is reacting like a normal person in an intense grieving process---grieving the ripping away of the last of her childhood, grieving the betrayal by people she thought loved her, and grieving the sudden loss of a lot of childhood's illusions.
This is the first time she's been free to grieve those losses, and the biggest predictable thing about grieving people is that they're unpredictable.
I saw the same thing in college---I *was* the same thing in college, to a lesser extent because my parents and my experience of betrayal was less severe---among students whose parents had been very controlling and authoritarian reacting to *finally* being out from under the parental thumb.
All of them settled down in a year to six months.
She's grieving. She's going through the process. As long as she doesn't get "stuck" in any particular part of that process, she'll come through it and when she comes out the other side of it she'll be fine.
She's an adult, and what she's going through now is, considering what she's been through, a necessary part of growing up. Better that she go through it now and deal with her grief and get it out of the way than repress it all and go through it later when it will do more damage to her budding adult life.
So yes, I know exactly how she's doing, and I understand it as well as anyone can who hasn't been through the same traumas and grieving process.
In my opinion, you're judging her too soon, and you're judging her harshly because you're rooting for her to fall flat on her face so that you can say, "I told you so!"
The grieving process, as long as you go ahead and go through it and don't get "stuck" in one part of it---like repressing it---takes six months to a year.
I'm betting that once she finishes grieving her various losses, Viva will be just fine.
And I think you should be ashamed of yourself for rejoicing at everything you can point to as bad or unfortunate in this woman's life. You disgust me. And I expect you digust Jesus as well and are disappointing him greatly in your lack of human charity.
TimocleaReligion is comparable to a childhood neurosis.
--Sigmund Freud, Austrian-born psychologist
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On 2005-04-11 06:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"T. Remember there are two sides to every story. You have heard one. And when they lie to you about simple fact, how can you trust that when they talk to you about opinions and feelings that they are truthful? I KNOW "VIVA" has no living biological grandmothers and that both her adopted grandmothers stand with her parents. Whoever you spoke to was not honest about their relationship to the child."
Oh, baloney. I know the simple facts, I was abbreviating for the sake of not having to drag out a long and involved discussion that has been covered over and over again on Fornits.
You are just as bad as you claim I am in not mentioning that they are Viva's *adoptive* parents, that she was not adopted as a baby, that her dad parented her until he died, and that her biological mother, as far as I remember, is still alive although she's had various difficulties in her life.
The people I spoke to were perfectly honest about the relationship, and in that they didn't gild the hard parts of the truth, pretty darned honest about what they were going through, in my opinion.
I don't *care* what her parents' "side" of the story is unless they can produce a birth certificate proving she is not yet 18 years old.
She is an adult. What she does is her business, and her problem to deal with. I don't know any adult who hasn't had both their own trials and triumphs along the way.
I repeat, your habit of rooting for this girl to fail in life disgusts me. You should be ashamed.
She's an adult. Whatever she may or may not have done as a child or teenager is a moot point now. Her parents could claim she's a former gang member who worked for a chop shop stealing cars and I'd shrug. She is responsible for her behavior *now*---and there's just not enough time since she turned eighteen for her to have developed a track record, and what there is of the track record is entirely understandable based on her having been stuck in ALA.
I repeat, your leaping forward to judge Viva and your clear rooting for her to fail in life and go crawling back to people you in your Godlike exalted and perfect judgement approve of is absolutely disgusting.
Ask me a year and a half from now what I think of Viva and I'll give you my preliminary thoughts, presuming she stays in touch, as I hope she does. I also wish her only the best---unlike you.
I think people do much better in life, in general, when we assume they're going to be good people and hope for the best for them.
It's called "charity"---you should try it some time.
TimocleaI have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father and inventor
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On 2005-04-11 11:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If you want to sound half way intelligent, try a little less "stupid" language. It appears that you only want the opinions of those that agree with you. That is not everyone. I appreciate your "church lady" giving a different opinion and respect her right to do so. Her writing is much less offensive because it contains no profanity. You are helpling no one with that kind of talk. You only make yourself look like an uneducated, foul mouth kid that has nothing to offer but opinions and no facts."
Nihilanthic has been completely open and above board about having Aspergers.
If he sometimes comes on a little strong, anyone who's been paying attention to it knows the reason and makes reasonable allowances, reading the meat of what he says and taking that as his contribution to the discussion.
He does sometimes come on a little strong, but it's not his fault.
(I'm not pretending to be perfect, I'm not perfect either, and I have my own problems to deal with.)
His tone doesn't negate the often very real merit of many of his observations.
Reasonable people make reasonable allowances.
It's called "charity."
I think Viva's parents made a bad decision, because I think based on their behavior here that the ALA people are flaky and shouldn't be running a facility to "treat" anyone--they can barely function their ownselves.
I don't know what help she may have or may not have needed, but the ALA people weren't the place to get it. Given the State Department's advisory on facilities outside the US, placing her in a third world country was flat irresponsible.
The difference between their behavior and hers is that she was a kid and reasonable adults expect kids to make mistakes.
They were adults---and not just in their twenties and wet behind the ears. Her adoptive parents, regardless of anything else that may or may not be true about them, were old enough to know better.
They may *otherwise* be good people, but they made some serious errors of judgement in placing her---and they were old enough to know better.
She has a right to be upset and grieved about that, and wouldn't be human if she weren't having to go through dealing with that and coming to terms with it now.
I don't judge her parents as bad people---but I do judge that as a very poor decision, by people who should have known better.
TimocleaThere are not enough jails, not enough policemen, not enough courts to enforce a law not supported by the people.
-- HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, speech (1965)
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On 2005-04-11 11:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If you want to sound half way intelligent, try a little less "stupid" language. It appears that you only want the opinions of those that agree with you. That is not everyone. I appreciate your "church lady" giving a different opinion and respect her right to do so. Her writing is much less offensive because it contains no profanity. You are helpling no one with that kind of talk. You only make yourself look like an uneducated, foul mouth kid that has nothing to offer but opinions and no facts."
Ok, I repect anyones right to voice an OPINION, anon.
However, I give no respect for some brainwashed over-religious cunt whose spewing dogma and putting down a child for freeing herself from a program and getting fine on her own, and insisting on the grounds of her RELIGION (which is faith only, theres no logical or rational reason for viva to go back to her parents or the program) that she go back to her mother and/or the program.
Her writing is VERY offensive to me, baghead. What shes saying in so many words is "I'm a stupid bitch who cant think for herself so I'm going to cling to my parents theology and spew it out like the selfrightous twit that I am, living in my bubble world where children are chattel to their parents".
Dont like it, TOUGH SHIT! Get the fuck off the forum and go back to your stupid little bubble-world with church lady. Using this PC bullshit to excuse this bitch and her 'faith' is ridiculous.
I allow people to disagree with me, but waht you fail to realize is she does not, especially if its a kid or it clashes with her faith. She needs to realize that her faith is ONLY THAT, FAITH. Rationally, sir, its inseperable from a fairytale.
I dont really want to step on everyones toes about their religion becuase I honestly just dont give a damn. However, if their religion makes them act like this "church lady" and its used as a reason to castigate a program/parental abandonment survivor such as Amanda who clearly is doing *FINE*, and should not be compelled to return to Craig's little davidian compound waiting to happen or her hsitty parents, then I'm going to get a little pissy.
You can believe in whatever makes you happy. However, if your BELIEFS make you hurt people, sorry, but reality comes before your little fairytales.
Also, I have tons of facts, and tons of opinions. I am foul mouthed but I'm also 20 so I can do whatever the hell I want except buy alcohol. And while we're on the fact vs opinion thing, lemme make one thing clear: faith, dogma, and the like, are ALL OPINIONS. They are NOT facts. A fact would be like "Jesus was a living human being". An opinion would be if he was the son of god or ascended into heaven or whatnot. If it offends you... well, tough. Time to grow up!
If you still think I'm uneducated despite the fact that I actually show grammar, syntax, and a vocabulary, use a computer fluently, and helped create http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens (http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens), am in college, fix my car and computer myself, and are actually able to forumulate an arguement and present it to you (albeit with a bit of indignation) then you should find another, less trite insult to use against me. :grin: Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
--Edward Everett
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Timoclea - whether or not I have AS (and thats been seriously questioned since I've gone to the autism society here, they think I merely have SPD, which is a linguistic delay similar to symptoms of aspergers syndrome) or not, I'm still entitled to be as brash or polite as I please.
Thanks for defending me, but its unwanted, and unneeded.
I dont feel any love or respect for that church lady or her defenders. I dont feel any love for people who use a fairy tale to allow her to treat Amanda like that, or any child, or shove their dogma down peoples throats. I also had the not-so-secret ulterior motive of scaring her back to her little bubble world way from here. Shes a troll, shes an annoyance, and her presence is utterly useless.
Also, I just felt like bitching her out. I may be young but I'm not a child and made a conscious choice to be foul-mouthed. If they want to ignore my VERY pertinent statement and instead dodge and try to insult me and my choice of words, let them. Theyre just showing how utterly weak they are. They cant argue against what I have to say so they shoot down HOW I say it.
Besides, I'd rather them whine about my language then spew more scripture and make it take longer to scroll down each page :lol: The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs.
-- E. Grebenik
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You're right, Niles. It was just an opportunity to comment to them about charity---the emotion rather than giving donations of stuff--that I didn't manage to pass up.
It just burns me up that it wasn't enough for these loonies to provide their "help" against her will, now that she's grown they want to stand back and watch, gleefully waiting for her to screw up. Talk about pressure. That's just warped, and sick.
T.People everywhere enjoy believing things that they know are not true. It spares them the ordeal of thinking for themselves and taking responsibility for what they know.
BROOKS ATKINSON (1894-1984), Once Around The Sun, 1951.
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I guess I missed something. Who is wanting her to fail? I don't see that anywhere in anyone's posts?
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You've landed in an ongoing, but intermittent debate. There are some who resent Viva's (aka Amanda's) 'rebelliousness'. They appear to be waiting with baited breath for her to screw up. It appears they would be happy if that happened- the 'lord's way' of punishing her.
If you care to catch up:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#66033 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6837&forum=9&start=0#66033)
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I read, but still don't see anyone wanting her to fail. Just people wanting her to make good choices. Throw God in and if she is one of His, then He will allow circumstances to draw her back. I still don't see that as wanting her to fail. Even one of your regular posters said something like that on the thread you connected me to. I find it hard to believe ANYONE would want her to fail. I guess you can tell I do believe in God. I will pray for Amanda and her family. I am sure they are all hurting and grieving over losses. Hopefully, some day healing will happen for all those involved.
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Healing does not mean she's going to go in with her head bowed down submissively to her parents. Healing would mean repairing the relationship. I dont think shed want one with her parents right now.
THEY fucked up, SHES doing just fine, she doesnt like them, (why would she if they abandoned her to a program and abdicated responsibility?) so if theres going to be any healing *THEY* have to be the ones to go at LEAST half way and apologize for their actions.
Also, yeah, you believe in a deity. Fine. So do I. It doesnt mean I believe in asinine fairytales and man-made religions. I also know when reality and rational thought and evidence contradict dogma, and this is one case of it.
Shes not rebelling from anything except your mentality. Also, you BELIEVING that she did something wrong and god will "draw her back" (But you dont want her to fail :lol:) is DELUSIONAL. D E L U S I O N A L. Look it up.
Shes done no wrong, the program is hogwash and her parents suck. Too bad your BELIEF structure isnt flexible enough to take into account that parents can and do fuck up and theyre not always right, and sometime the kid is.Duct tape is like the force; it has a light side and a dark side and it holds the universe together.
--Jedi Knight school drop out.
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I'm not going to read the entire thread but here's just one example, which I and others, interpreted to be a pretty clear prediction of failure. You may interpret it completely differently.
"What is more, God knows that is the truth.
When the world starts to close in on you, remember Amanda, you have brought it upon yourself. God is not mocked. You will reap what you have sown. However, God has been merciful to you. The Lord has shown graciousness to you for the sake of your younger sister who loves you and misses you so much. God is patient. But, don't kid yourself. He will not allow you to continue down this path forever."
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Obviously, no one has ever taken the time to explain what Christianity is REALLY about. It is not about being perfect. It is admiting you are not. I know I fuck up! ALL the time. But because of what Christ did, we can be forgiven. I don't have to keep paying pentance for all my "fuck ups"! Thank heaven 'cause there ain't enough pentance. I am sorry that the only Christianity you are familiar with is the judgemental, hell fire and brimstone type. So, you think her parent's "fucked" up and she did nothing wrong ever? Well, if her parents suck as much as you say, then they need lots of prayer and support. As far as believing she did something wrong, we all make mistakes or bad choices. (yes, including her parents) From reading old posts, even the posters here that support her believe she has made some bad choices.
I hope somewhere down the line someone will show you that not all Christians are hateful and judgemental. My belief structure is extremely flexible. It allows all kinds of fuck ups to be saved. As a matter of fact, the only, one that will be in heaven that didn't live life on earth as a major league fuck up is Jesus.
From what I have read of your posts, you have a tender heart for kids. I think I would like you very much. I promise, I am not throwing any stones here at you or Amanda. I have no right.
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On 2005-04-11 17:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
Obviously, no one has ever taken the time to explain what Christianity is REALLY about.
No, you're mistaken. I've met wonderful people full of goodness and light who profess Christianity. I just wouldn't characterize these people that way.
I don't know if Amanda is alright or not. I hope she is. I think her situation is quite similar to mine when I was her age; cloistered in a weird cult for most of my childhood then tossed out w/o any kind of support or any reasonable social or life skills to succeed. I wouldn't call that situation "alright".
But I made it alright. And here's wishing only the best for Amanda ::cheers::
I'd wish the best for all her kin and everyone else commenting on this, too, but let me make myself perfectly clear about that. I do NOT wish for you to get what you want. I don't want that to happen at all. I'd love to hear back from this kid some years from now and find that she made it through it all ok. That doesn't seem to be what you "christians" want at all. You want her to fall down and come crawling back so you can gloat about it and pretend that makes you right.
The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.
--Abraham Lincoln, U.S. President
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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On 2005-04-11 16:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I read, but still don't see anyone wanting her to fail. Just people wanting her to make good choices. Throw God in and if she is one of His, then He will allow circumstances to draw her back. I still don't see that as wanting her to fail. Even one of your regular posters said something like that on the thread you connected me to. I find it hard to believe ANYONE would want her to fail. I guess you can tell I do believe in God. I will pray for Amanda and her family. I am sure they are all hurting and grieving over losses. Hopefully, some day healing will happen for all those involved."
You come across that if Amanda had a nice job, a nice apartment, a nice boyfriend or husband, and sincere religious beliefs---that if they didn't match *your* religious beliefs you'd be sorry she was so happy because it kept God from "drawing her back."
Otherwise why would you still be calling an 18 year old young woman a "runaway"?
You don't have one good thing to say about Amanda. Not one.
You may be good enough at lying to yourself to really believe you wish her well but you don't talk about her the way people talk about folks they have good wishes for.
If you had positive intentions towards her, you wouldn't be going out of your way to slander her by jumping into a conversation and warning someone off her, calling her a "runaway" as if she was sixteen and on the lam.
And it wasn't exactly accurate to call her "biased" against the program. "Bias" is making up your mind ahead of time about people and things you don't know all that much about. When you've experienced something yourself, you're entitled to have an opinion of it. At that point, it's not a "bias"--it's your opinion based on your own personal experience of whatever it is.
I don't think I've ever seen someone go out of their way to say bad things about other people, putting them in the worst light possible to the point of inaccuracy, when they wished that person *well*.
If you think Amanda is such a screwup, why didn't you just stick to the whole truth and nothing but the truth? It's not as dramatic to say that the lady (Paige) who adopted her brother pulled her out of ALA (granted against her parents' wishes) and then Amanda moved out from Paige's house a couple of months before she turned 18. It's not as dramatic to say that Amanda didn't graduate the program and has a bad opinion of the program and point the man to people who like the program for him to get a range of impressions.
The truth wasn't "bad" enough for you so you exaggerated.
That's not how people treat other people that they wish well.
You can tell yourself you wish her well, and tell us you do, all day long---but your actions speak louder than your words.
I'm sure there are true bad things you could say about her. There are true bad things people could say about me. There are true bad things people can say about anybody. But we only exaggerate the bad things people do when we have a certain degree of malice or acrimony in our hearts.
If you really wish Amanda well, then just quit talking about her.
Do you really think it was news to that man that Amanda didn't like ALA? Duh. You *could* have just provided contact info. for people with different opinions. Talking about her the way you did was needless, malicious gossip. It didn't do any good, it was exaggerated, and it was nasty.
Timoclea
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I guess I don't understand. You say you don't wish for her what I do? I am hoping for her, it seems to me, the same thing you do. That somewhere down the line, she is alright. I personally don't know ANY Christians that would want her to come thru all this and not be all right. So PLEASE don't lump me in with anyone that wants any harm to come to her. As far as falling down, it is part of learning to walk. The only way not to fall is to never try to stand. I hope this child stands and falls until she learns to sprint! Christianity is about perserverance and finishing well knowing that we will take detours and crash and burn...or fuck up...along the way.
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And if you and the other anon are different people, I apologize, but it's hard to tell when people don't get a screen name.
The person I'm still talking to/about is the one that succumbed to the temptation to needlessly and cruelly gossip about Amanda when she *could* have just quietly made the positives of her case.
I'm flawed, you're flawed, she's flawed, her parents are flawed, we're all flawed. Okay. But it's cruel to use this girl giving her opinion about her own experiences as an excuse for malicious gossip.
If that wasn't you, then take it as directed at the other anon and please get a screen name so we can tell you apart.
Timoclea
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Wow! What was that? I guess some other anon had some stuff to say, but, it wasn't me. Sorry! I don't know any of what you were talking about. Sorry I must have stepped in something I didn't recognize. Honestly, if life was grand for Amanda, I'd be happy. I hope life is grand for all you guys! I've never referred to her as a runaway. Guess I shouldn't have posted. Seems like this is a private conversation! please accept my apology. Didn't mean to stir!
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okay, thanks for the apology! If I get a screen name, do I stay psuedo anonymous? I am really new to all this form, computer, chat stuff. I think it is really intersting, but I don't want a bunch of spam, viruses, weird e-mail...Afterall, I have browsed thru some of the other threads and there are some very unusuals out there! Okay, don't get crazy! I really am not judging them, I just think I am ready for contact from some of them!
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oops, NOT ready for contact from them
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On 2005-04-11 17:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I guess I don't understand. You say you don't wish for her what I do? I am hoping for her, it seems to me, the same thing you do. That somewhere down the line, she is alright. I personally don't know ANY Christians that would want her to come thru all this and not be all right. So PLEASE don't lump me in with anyone that wants any harm to come to her. As far as falling down, it is part of learning to walk. The only way not to fall is to never try to stand. I hope this child stands and falls until she learns to sprint! Christianity is about perserverance and finishing well knowing that we will take detours and crash and burn...or fuck up...along the way. "
If you're not the same anon who started gossiping about her, then that's fine.
If you are, and you've had a change of heart, that's also fine---as long as you quit gossiping about her.
It doesn't serve any good for anyone.
It is entirely possible to defend ALA and acknowledge Amanda's got grounds to have formed an opinion, and then point to people who don't share it.
So if the anon gossipping wasn't you, fine. If it was, please realize that was a fuck up on your part and okay, so you're human---just please stop.
Timoclea
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On 2005-04-11 18:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"okay, thanks for the apology! If I get a screen name, do I stay psuedo anonymous? I am really new to all this form, computer, chat stuff. I think it is really intersting, but I don't want a bunch of spam, viruses, weird e-mail...Afterall, I have browsed thru some of the other threads and there are some very unusuals out there! Okay, don't get crazy! I really am not judging them, I just think I am ready for contact from some of them!"
Then I'm truly sorry about the mistaken identity, you sounded like the same person. To have any meaningful conversations with the anons, you kind of have to presume an anon in the same thread who sounds the same is the same.
If you get a screen name, it doesn't let anybody do anything but send you private messages *on Fornits*---see the little private messages indicator on the left---you don't even have to read them, ever, if you don't want to.
It doesn't let anyone see your email or anything like that, and doesn't even have to be a name that relates to anything---it's *solely* so people on Fornits can identify which posts in a thread come from you, and which from someone else---to prevent what just happened.
Timoclea
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The first anon wasn't me. How do I find out the rules or privacy agreements or whatever...about posting with a name so you won't get us confused?
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okay, thanks, sorry we are typing at the same time. I will look around the site and see if I can figure this out.
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tried to register, but I don't think it wise to give my e-mail address to any forum board. And it wouldn't let me without an email address and what is an ICQ number? Sorry to be so illiterate!
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You need to give an email address; but you have the option to keep it private. Maybe set up a yahoo account if you don't want to put your primary address at risk.
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You can even plug a 'fake' email in there if you don't want to give any current email account. Check out some of the "troll" emails, bogus.
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Dear Readers,
Sorry not to have replied recently.I have been busy with work and my family matters.
My niece is in a unknown location to me.All I Know is thaat she is out of Country!My family said they had had it and sent her to a lock down any info would be appriciated! !
Thanks
Barton
And viva is a wonderfull help! I support her.
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Ok, just a hunch, but could it be Esceula Caribe? (New Horizons Youth Ministry)
Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
--Denis Diderot, French encyclopedist
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Dear Readers,
I'm sorry about my previous writting.I was in a huge rush with personal matters.
My niece has a twin brother and he has been doing his "Detective" work for me. A few hours ago he called me and told me he found a slip that said " Dominican Republic"!!It also said "return date scedual 3/31/06"!!
His sister is VERY inteligent.HE believes she can run away and get home.Im Doughtfull.God I hope she is okay.Can any one give me a heads up?
Viva is helping me a lot.I have a great faith in her.She is Very smart she contains a great deal of information.I thank her for helping me.
If anyone can help with anything else i would greatly apriciate it.
Thank you,
Anthony Barton
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MAYBE SHE WILL BE BETTER THAN STAYING IN ALA. I KNOW CRAIG ROGERS AND HE WON'T PUT A FINGER IN MEXICO BECAUSE JAIL IS WAITING FOR HIM.... HERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE WAITING THAT. HIS BUSSINES GOT DOWN AND HE IS STILL TRYING TO GET PEOPLE IN IT... JUST BE CAREFUL, I KNOW HIM VERY WELL AND I CAN TELL YOU WITH MY HEART THAT HE'S AN EVIL MAN. SO, EVERYTHING WILL BE OK FOR YOU. IT'S SAD THAT THE PARENTS AND RELATIVES ARE TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT ACTIONS AND THERE'S ALWAYS A PERSON WHO'S LOOKING AT YOUR MONEY.....
SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH, YES, I'M WRITING FROM MEXICO. :wave:
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Anthony, if it turns out she's at Esceula Caribe, I hope she doesn't run! I'm not kidding. I have a good friend who grew up in those hills (mountains, really) near the Haitian/DM border. It's no joke. She lost a brother to either the slave trade (sugar caners still use captured slaves in that part of the world), death squads or something. Nobody's heard from him in well over a decade. It's a very rough neighborhood even for a tough Haitian mountain girl.
I think your best bet would probably be to see if you can get a state-side court w/ proper jurisdiction to issue a writ of habeas corpus. You might try contacting these folks http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/toc.htm (http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/toc.htm) and see if they can give you some good legal advice.
Time's fun when you're having flies.
--Kermit the Frog
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The Heart and History of Abundant Life Academy
[Admin note: Just link to it]
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Do you think that someone would be more likely to have a meaningful relationship with God by choice or by force?