Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Anonymous on April 06, 2005, 11:02:00 PM
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Has anyone checked out http://www.unconditionalgrowth.com (http://www.unconditionalgrowth.com), Cindy and John Perloff's spiritual program? Very interesting... How do you think this relates to The Seed?
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Okay, I'm taking the bait... :grin:
Well, what do John and Cindy have to say for themselves?
From the website noted above:
?John has successfully completed a lot of schooling, degree programs and certification processes, which nobody really cares about. As a more-than-full-time lawyer, he negotiated, drafted, closed, deposed, litigated, documented, schmoozed, managed, billed, made rain, and played office politics for 17 years. As much fun as all that was, he does not actively practice law anymore?...
So far he seems to follow The Seed motto of credentials don't matter when it comes to screwing with souls.
Gee, as much as John holds himself out as an ?aww shucks, gee whiz? kinda guy ? he?s still actively practicing law. At least according to the Florida Bar web site. Maybe he hasn?t informed the Bar or the 2005 Quality of Life and Career Committee of his choice to ?not actively practice law anymore," because he sure as hell is not registered INACTIVE.
I guess the ?corporate money sheltering" work he did for the Art, Shelly, Libby and and the rest of whore-monger, theiving Seed freaks just couldn?t hold his interest any more. Follow the money?that will lead you to his heart.
As a dues paying member of the Florida Bar, you can bet I?ll be staying the hell away from any ?Quality of Life? or ?Career Advice? this clown might have to offer.
And Reiki Master,Universal Brotherhood Minister Cindy Perloff ?? Well, it seems anybody can be ordained by this organization located in lovely Margate, Florida. I guess shitty credentials are just as good as no credentials. As for being a Reiki Master ? I?ll stick to rubbing crystals and rocks on myself in the privacy of my own home without having to pay these money-grubbing freaks for the privilege of being mind-hearded to the Perloff?s ?inner-self corral.? Thank you very much.
These people and their ridiculous ?spirituality? seminars are just dangerous, quack, evil-doers looking to make money off of weak-minded people.
Sounds pretty much like a new millenium Seed to me.
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Actually, it's more like "Unconditinal Bullshit".
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"And we are very careful what we support with our life energy (money), knowing that whatever we do support will flourish and continue."
If that don't say it all!
Oh look! Here's their new guru!
http://www.cwg.org/neale/nealesstory.html (http://www.cwg.org/neale/nealesstory.html)
Much better looking than Art, don't ya' think? And at least seem to be right up front about picking on narcissistic yuppies and leaving their kids out of the sales pitch.
If TCs were interested in treating substance abuse, half the time they'd tell mom "Sorry ma'am, we can't help him. He's not an addict, he's just an asshole.
--GregFL
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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Here, here! I'm steering clear of Cindy's Reiki tentacles! Does anyone remember what her nickname was? I'm trying to figure out if I'm confusing her with someone else. Can you tell me some more about John's "corporate money sheltering" work?
Thanks for your candid response!
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Oh my lord! Online cult leadership certification!
Only takes 18 months and modules start at $50 each!
http://www.cwg.org/LEP/about.html (http://www.cwg.org/LEP/about.html) :rofl:
The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.
O'Brien, the apparatchik
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Do some web research on John's firm (Google Perloff) and you will see that one of the senior partners, a big-time Florida lobbyist and operative, was ironically involved in scandals in the 90s including drug money...
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Not at all surprised. What's the deal w/ Robert being placed as Lt. Mayor of Dania? I thought you had to be Mafia to work for Dania??
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys
--P.J. O'Rourke
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These people are no-good-nicks from the word go.
As a Fla. Bar member I find the unconditional bullshit web site disconcerting with respect to his claims of "not really practicing law" any more. Either you are doing the job or you are not - to quote program dogma- you can't be half pregnant now, can you???
That and the fact that he is on the current year Florida Bar committee specifically created to address quality of life issues for lawyers is just sickening. Giving advice??? :scared:
What's he going to tell me? That I should give my inner power to some mind control freaks so that they can use me to screw people? NO THANKS.
This stuff is just insidious.
BTW, can you tell how much this guy shocks, amazes and just plan pisses me off?[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-04-07 09:20 ]
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On 2005-04-06 21:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Here, here! I'm steering clear of Cindy's Reiki tentacles! Does anyone remember what her nickname was? I'm trying to figure out if I'm confusing her with someone else. Can you tell me some more about John's "corporate money sheltering" work?
Thanks for your candid response! "
Just go to http://www.sunbiz.com (http://www.sunbiz.com) (I thinkit's a dot com) and search under Registerd Agents unsing PErlmans name. that should hook you up with most of the money trail. Also start with the name The Seed, and follw that as well.
I know Greg and Ginger did this before, maybe they can direct you to a pre-existing thread. [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-04-07 09:19 ]
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Hey, I am out of the country, but looking this over I am just grinning to myself.
How in the hell can these people replace Art with another "guru"? Does Art know about this? :grin:
And Strip, my love, I have this image of you rubbing Crystals all over yourself... :grin: :grin: .
Aw, the ironies of life...This is just so funny!
Someone post something on his message board and politely suggest he should Take a break from his new group and come over and talk to his old devotees. here is the link...
http://www.unconditionalgrowth.com/forum/index.php (http://www.unconditionalgrowth.com/forum/index.php)
Also, someone quick, call Art and tell him John and Cindy are cheating on him.
:grin: :grin: :grin:
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Forget about the fucking Seed already! SIBS is the wave of the future! :wave:
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I can't believe what I am reading!!!! None of you really know or knew John or you would not be saying the things that you are
saying!!!
I may not agree with the whole thing that he is now into, but he is one the the most generous, loving people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing. He has done so much for so many people. He thinks more about others than himself. He does not deserve all this bullshit that you are posting.
He also is not into having money!!! There were plenty of people who were but not him.
I hope to God he never sees this....
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If there were in the world today any large number of people who desired their own happiness more than they desired the unhappiness of others, we could have paradise in a few years.
Bertrand Russell
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On 2005-04-07 14:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
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I hope to God he never sees this....
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I'm guessing he's at least seen this "And we are very careful what we support with our life energy (money), knowing that whatever we do support will flourish and continue" I got it from his web site. That's about all I know of the guy, but I sure can't find a way to read that that doesn't seem to say that money is damned importent to the guy.
What makes you think the guy us so pious? What he said about himself? Oh honey, never mind what they say, watch what they do
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From Joan Didion's "Slouching Towards Bethlehem": "Anybody who thinks this is all about drugs has his head in a bag. It's a social movement, quintessentially romantic, the kind that recurs in times of real social crisis. The themes are always the same. A return to innocence. The invocation of an earlier authority and control. The mysteries of the blood. An itch for the transcendental, for purification. Right there you've got the ways that romanticism historically ends up in trouble, lends itself to authoritarianism. When the direction appears."
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On 2005-04-07 14:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I can't believe what I am reading!!!! None of you really know or knew John or you would not be saying the things that you are
I have nothing bad to say about him personally because for one thing I don't know him. I can however observe this newagie think that looks like a cult with a cult guru he is involved in and point out the irony of it.
I may not agree with the whole thing that he is now into, but he is one the the most generous, loving people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing. He has done so much for so many people.
If that is true, he is lucky to have you as a friend to defend him.
He also is not into having money!!!
I suppose you didn't see the prices of his new "seminars", eh?
I hope to God he never sees this....
And I wish he would. I would love to have him posting here as well as the rest of Art's most trusted insiders.....
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On 2005-04-08 13:57:00, GregFL wrote:
I would love to have him posting here as well as the rest of Art's most trusted insiders.....
Of course, you're right. But I doubt he will. He doesn't even mention in his bio the decades of affiliation w/ his jilted guru. He's on to bigger and better things now.It is criminal to steal a purse. It is daring to steal a fortune. It is a mark of greatness to steal a crown. The blame diminishes as the guilt increases
--Schiller (1759-1805)
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On 2005-04-07 12:08:00, GregFL wrote:
"Hey, I am out of the country, but looking this over I am just grinning to myself.
<
Someone post something on his message board and politely suggest he should Take a break from his new group and come over and talk to his old devotees. here is the link...
http://www.unconditionalgrowth.com/forum/index.php (http://www.unconditionalgrowth.com/forum/index.php)
Greg,
I tired to get on the forum but one must be registered to post and I just could not bring myself to do that- even with a fake name. I guess web-based sprituality is not an anonymous event.
MMMM, these rocks feel good...
Stripe
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On 2005-04-07 14:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I hope to God he never sees this....
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No, this guy and his wife need to see this. They need to see just how fucked up the seed programming was. They need to know the entire seed legacy, not just a version that allows them to sleep peacefully on their lavendar scented pillows every night. They need to know that the program they supported and fostered all those years was not all goodness and light and did not bring peace and happiness to the community.
Instead of creating another money-grubbing, soul-stealing scheme, they need to be actively seeking forgivness and making real, verifiable sacrifices with their time and energy.
If what they have to offer is so freaking great and so freaking valuable and so freaking important to the betterment of mankind- WHY NOT GIVE IT AWAY?? :scared:
Oh yeah, that's right - program answer: nothing of any value is free....
Any religious teachings of any value in this world are free.
[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-04-08 19:47 ]
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On 2005-04-07 18:29:00, Antigen wrote:
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On 2005-04-07 14:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
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I hope to God he never sees this....
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I'm guessing he's at least seen this "And we are very careful what we support with our life energy (money), knowing that whatever we do support will flourish and continue" I got it from his web site. That's about all I know of the guy, but I sure can't find a way to read that that doesn't seem to say that money is damned importent to the guy.
What makes you think the guy us so pious? What he said about himself? Oh honey, never mind what they say, watch what they do"
So which are you? Are you someone who desires your own happiness or someone desiring the unhappiness of others? (?You? not necessarily being directed at Antigen or Greg or Stripe, but to any reader or participant here experiencing a drive to denigrate, belittle, or assassinate the character of another.)
I must admit that it will be with some effort that I try to offer positive input here rather than defending or mounting a counterattack. The experience of righteous indignation, conveniently dividing the world into camps of good and evil (of course I was always in the good) is a habit of my past, and it is my current belief, a behavior both pointless and detrimental to my evolution. Further, I do not believe that John or Cindy would desire that I engage in a counterattack on their behalf, and they do not require my defense.
I realize that the non-offensive tone that I will make every effort to take has potential to enrage. Please know that this is not my intent. I share an experience with many of you of having been associated with the Seed. I also have had the experience that I have been a victim of the Seed. (There is ambivalence here because I also have experienced the Seed as beneficial to my life. For me, arriving at some judgment as to the relative ?goodness? of ?badness? of the experience is a pointless exercise. It was simply what it was. Emphasis on ?was?. I will attempt to explain if you are willing to read on.)
What I would simply like to say is that what I see on these pages runs the gamut between appreciation of the experience and revulsion. I do not suggest that one is more appropriate or correct than the other. We all have differing experiences. The revulsion, however, gives rise to a desire to lash out. What I would suggest is that the experience of being a victim, although not without value, is valuable only for a limited time. I would further suggest that one chooses to experience the world as a victim, a prisoner of all prior insults experienced in one?s life, or, one experiences life as being in control of one?s own life and destiny. The prisoner lashes out in an effort to punish his or her perceived jailers or tormenters. The individual with real personal power simply leaves the prison. The lashing out is particularly frustrating when the object of one?s imprisonment isn?t really present, and the anger and difficult emotions involved are really most intensely experienced by oneself. Of course suffering is also passed on to one?s mate, children, friends, business associates etc.
I realize this will probably be considered too ?new-agie? for some but I invite you to try an exercise which I found quite beneficial to my well being. Imagine that you have available to you a fixed amount of energy. That energy must be allocated to the maintenance of your physical form and all of your daily activities. I don?t think this is an unreasonable assumption. If may help to imagine this as a beam of light entering through the top of your head. (No intent here to give this any religious context). You might visualize your energy expenditures as a bundle of light fibers exiting your solar plexus. So there are strands accounting for the energy required to fend off infections, and repair damage to tissues from accidents and exposure to environmental toxins, deal with the stresses and challenges of personal relationships, etc. The relative thickness of each strand is dependent upon your current life situation. You may or may not be able to influence the energy which must be allocated in many cases. There also appears in this bundle of exiting strands, one strand for each insult that you have been unable or unwilling to resolve. We are connected to each of the offending individuals or insults remembered by a strand of energy which maintains that resentment and drains a portion of our available energy. I admit that I did not see the value of this imagery until I made a sincere effort to examine and experience the resentments I held. Each incident of bullying by the boy who lived next door who I simply wanted to be friends with. The time I was wrongly accused of mischief and embarrassed in front of the class in junior high. Failed romances, on and on. Each of these carried an energy of anger or hurt which was palpable. I certainly did not dwell on any of these incidents in my day to day life, but the exercise made me aware that I did carry them with me. They required energy to maintain and feed. The tool that allowed me to severe these connections was forgiveness or acceptance. Of course the thin strands were easier to cut than the thick.
To put it simply, my suggestion as it relates to the concerns of those who gather here is to get off the front row or back row or where ever you are currently held against your will. You are the only ?staff? who is presently holding you there or walking you to the bathroom or forcing you to write your moral inventory. Please see that to be passionately and emotionally ?pro? or ?anti? anything really gives that thing equal sway over your life. (This is not to say that I believe one should have no opinions whatever, but that is a different topic I still struggle with.)
Thanks for the opportunity to voice this. Much of this comes from thoughts I had as I watched people who had been friends for years become bitter enemies as the hierarchy of the Seed crumbled. This did not really surprise me at all as the ?you are with us or against us? thinking had always been promoted if not required. It is certainly more comfortable to view the world as black and white and without ambiguity. We seem to find such comfort, safety and identity in belonging to a group which doesn?t like the way some other group looks or thinks or behaves (Irish Catholics ? Irish Protestants, Israelis ? Palestinians, Republicans ? Democrats, Christians ? Muslims, People who think Art is perfect - People who don?t think Art is perfect, People who think the Seed sucks ? People who don?t think the Seed sucks ?) I found this division of ?us? from ?them? one of the most distressing aspects of my experience with the seed. It is my sincere desire not to engage in it in any way, shape or form. (Always easier said than done!)
I offer my sincerest apologies if this is difficult to comprehend or offensive in any way. I have never considered myself a very good communicator. You may be interested in an article here http://www.noetic.org/publications/revi ... 5/main.cfm (http://www.noetic.org/publications/review/issue65/main.cfm) titled Red-Hot Rock ( I know, new agie again, but if you don?t like this, start with quantum physics, or psychoneuroimmunology or anything that might open you to the possibilty that things aren?t always as simplistic as they appear in our black and white world, and that there may be some value to introspection and fresh examination of our experience. (Or don?t as is your preference!))
One last thing for any who may be curious? I am not a ?disciple? of John?s, and don?t believe that any exist. I know him and respect him but have significant disagreements on philosophical issues with him. I probably know some of you, and don?t know many others and certainly have disagreements on philosophical issues with many, but also respect you. I think that the differences we might imagine between us are probably not that great. We all breath, eat, sleep, and urinate and deficate and will, with out exception, return to the Earth in the not so distant future. We all desire some degree of contentment and peace and fulfillment in our lives until that time.
Best Wishes to all. I personally believe we all deserve to live in happiness, the cynic in me says that we are not in immenent peril of that occuring, but I guess that?s just one of the things that keeps life interesting.
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Well, thanks for the post anon. But you in your flowerly denounciation of attacking people have done the very thing you said you loathe.
Tell me, just where do I attack and denigrade people as you suggest? Point me to the error of my ways..otherwise..admit you are just taking a contrary opinion of someone because he/she doesn't agree with you.
I invite you to join this community, let us know your past affiliation with the seed and offer your contribution to what we are attempting to do here...understand our joint experience. Your attempt at seperating those that think their experience was bad into negative people is just as bad as the contrary.
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Anon wrote:
"So which are you? Are you someone who desires your own happiness or someone desiring the unhappiness of others?"
Am I to understand that in your view - this is an either-or proposition? That I can only live my life desiring my own happiness and if not, I must therefore desire the unhappiness of others? I'm trying reconcile this with formulaed reasoning I've learned and I just can't.
Your philosphy, and I use that term loosely, supposes that a person can only be one or the other. I don't see this as being any different from the dogma of the seed, the dogma or christianity or the dogma of any other religion that I know about. I'll admit I don't know all there is to know about world religions, but your statement smacks of intolerance and prorammed mind set.
Following your reasoning has the effect of locking a person into one camp or the other, which is, if I understood you, the exact place your exercise was intended to remove the exercisor from. Badly written by me, but I think you can get my point.
What I do agree with is that it is beneficial to change one's perspective and look at the world through a larger lense at every given opportunity - especially when it is difficult or painful to do so. It's not just people who see their lives as diminishd by association with seed dogma who benefit from a new perspective.
Frankly, living for my own happiness seems like a pretty shallow, selfish goal or life purpose to me. Likewise, living to bring unhappiness to others is also shallow and selfish. Yours seems to be a no-win proppostion that results in emotional and energy enslavement on either side of the equation.
What I find most appalling about this unconditional love bullshit,or whatever it's called, is that the purveyors of this nonsense are still engaging in behavior that seeks to draw life force from its disciples or followers and redirect it to leaders own personal benefit and gain - under the guise of desiring the happiness of others. What aboslute and total unmitigiated bullshit. They would do less harm and have my respect if they stood out on street intersections panhandling money from the temporarily trapped drivers. At least we would all know exactly what they were doing and we could make an intelligent, unemotional choice to support or not support them.
The premise of their program is dishonest and that, my fellow traveller, is why I detest their action on its face and react so vehimently against it.
This life-energy stealing must be stopped and I for one, will continue to call it as I see it and take my lumps for speaking out against it.
"Stupidity is the basic building block of the universe." -- Frank Zappa
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Although I have no problem with a few harmless new age principles, it becomes more and more apparent (to me) that many of these groups mainly cater to the Anglo minority, wealthy enough to attend endless workshops and seminars, listening to each other promote a "privileged discourse." After all, in the end, the new agers are all saying the same thing: "We are all one and God is within us." I don't know about you, but I certainly do not need to reach for my back pocket to understand that, moreover, have it gift wrapped in intellectual jargon. Believing these core principles is one thing, practicing them in the presence of others can get expensive, at times. For the most part, new age trends, sects, groups, and gurus are available to those willing to pay and participate. For the everyday, down-and-out American citizen, who might not have more than an 8th grade education (12th if lucky), the privileged intellectual discourse promoted by new agers is unattainable since it is the academic language of colleges and universities with a mix of spirituality a la carte. Some of us just need someone to initially hold our hand to get to the lunch line, not explain to us how to cross the street in such lofty language, while giving us the false hope that someday we will understand the words and, finally, when the words take on a deeper meaning, we will know how to get to the lunch line by ourselves.
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Anything that fosters dependence and sells what is really innate knowldge can't be good.
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"anon wrote:I would further suggest that one chooses to experience the world as a victim, a prisoner of all prior insults experienced in one?s life, or, one experiences life as being in control of one?s own life and destiny. The prisoner lashes out in an effort to punish his or her perceived jailers or tormenters. The individual with real personal power simply leaves the prison."
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This is a great point and one I have made myself repeatedly (in another, less newagey way).
However, there is one thing you fail to understand Anon. The first step to releasing yourself from the prison of cults, gurus and other mind sapping bullshit sometimes is to get good and angry. Feel it..understand what happened to you. Only then can some move to step two..compartmentalizing the experience and putting it in their past, forgiving (not forgetting!) the tresspassers, finding understanding in the whole experience, and moving on.
Don't be condenscending to those still in the first steps of understanding what happened to them. And alsounderstand that we, and especially I, appreciate you coming here and posting. Your post, after reading it twice, I believe has some wonderfull points and interesting perspectives.
Thanks, and please register, pick a username and participate often. You see, contrary to how you stereotyped and prejudged us, this board is for all points of view relating to the seed. Yours is just as solicited and valued.
So anon, thanks in advance and as I ask all new particpants here, please think of something that happened at the seed that sticks out in your mind, and tell us a seed story!
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On 2005-04-10 12:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Although I have no problem with a few harmless new age principles, it becomes more and more apparent (to me) that many of these groups mainly cater to the Anglo minority, wealthy enough to attend endless workshops and seminars, listening to each other promote a "privileged discourse." After all, in the end, the new agers are all saying the same thing: "We are all one and God is within us." I don't know about you, but I certainly do not need to reach for my back pocket to understand that, moreover, have it gift wrapped in intellectual jargon. Believing these core principles is one thing, practicing them in the presence of others can get expensive, at times. For the most part, new age trends, sects, groups, and gurus are available to those willing to pay and participate. For the everyday, down-and-out American citizen, who might not have more than an 8th grade education (12th if lucky), the privileged intellectual discourse promoted by new agers is unattainable since it is the academic language of colleges and universities with a mix of spirituality a la carte. Some of us just need someone to initially hold our hand to get to the lunch line, not explain to us how to cross the street in such lofty language, while giving us the false hope that someday we will understand the words and, finally, when the words take on a deeper meaning, we will know how to get to the lunch line by ourselves. "
I have one thing to say....
Brilliant post!
::cheers::
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One final post then I'll leave Mr. Perloff to lick his wounds.
Unconditional Growth is a for profit corporation. It seeks donations to pay for scholarships and, among other things, rents. Ooops, they forgot. Unconditinoal Growth operates from the same space and address as Perloff's law firm, where he is not actively practicing law. He's such a putz he can't even get a new email address. How about Unconditionalgrowth@yahoo.com I hear Yahoo lets you have email for free..
What does it feel like to be a lizard whose tail just got ripped off?? Ouch.
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GregFL wrote: Tell me, just where do I attack and denigrade people as you suggest? Point me to the error of my ways..otherwise..admit you are just taking a contrary opinion of someone because he/she doesn't agree with you.
I do believe, especially with regard to you, my choice of words was perhaps too strong. Would it be unfair to say that if your name appeared as the topic here, you read the first several posts on this thread, and you were going to enter in an agreement with the participants that required a ?fair and objective? appreciation of your interests, you might do so with some concern? I certainly admit that I have a different opinion but do not take it with the purpose of disagreeing. It is my opinion based on my experience, nothing more nothing less.
GregFL wrote: ?However, there is one thing you fail to understand Anon. The first step to releasing yourself from the prison of cults, gurus and other mind sapping bullshit sometimes is to get good and angry. Feel it..understand what happened to you. Only then can some move to step two..compartmentalizing the experience and putting it in their past, forgiving (not forgetting!) the tresspassers, finding understanding in the whole experience, and moving on.
Don't be condenscending to those still in the first steps of understanding what happened to them.?
I believe I do understand this well. I have been ?good and angry?. I certainly would not fault anyone for anger about this or anything else. It is an absolutely human response and anyone who doesn?t get angry on a fairly regular basis probably isn?t paying very good attention. I have experienced the effects of trying to suppress anger. Your description of ?step two? is very much what I was trying to say in my own long winded fashion. (Although I am not sure what you mean by ?compartmentalizing?) Just trying to say that I have found protracted experience of anger to be damaging and unnecessary.
I think that one of the differences in our experience of this is that my involvement was purely voluntary. I believe this to be the case for most individuals involved with the program for at least the last 20 or more years. I could have walked away at any point, so I have never felt it honest to pin all of the blame on ?them? even when I was feeling really angry. I stayed for a combination of reasons. I would say some probably good and some not so good. I stayed because I felt sincere friendship with many people in ?the group?. (Most are not vacant-eyed zombies though I know this comes from a suspect source). I stayed because I felt ( and still feel) that I received some real benefit from my association with the Seed. I am aware that the benefits carried some cost. The fear that I would most likely cut ties completely with all of these people if I walked away (The seed giveth and the seed taketh away) was probably not so good a reason for staying.
I must also say that although some of the ?techniques? were probably abusive I do not believe that in all, or even in most cases, the intent was abusive. This does not excuse. I am also aware that as a voluntary participant I must accept responsibility for various actions I am not particularly proud of. I have attempted to make apologies where reasonable and appropriate. I have read posts on these pages from people I knew, had very high regard for, and felt were very badly treated (though again I am forced to say that the ?abusers? often sincerely believed that this was in the abused best interest). I am very happy to hear them express that they have normal happy lives. My sincerest wish is that they are able to forgive for no ones sake but their own. My apologie is that I didn?t speak up and say ?I don?t think this is right?
I realize not everyone?s experience was voluntary. Perhaps my assumption that after all of these years most who where forcefully or legally ?commited? would be up to your step two was not a good one.
I had no intent of being condescending on that point, or any other. (I do need to say this is not the first time I have been accused of being condescending without really being aware of intention to be so. Is there first degree condescention and second degree condescention? A lame attempt at humor. I will give this some thought)
One last thing. I have no problem with looking to other people, guru?s if you will, for input. I am without doubt shy of involving myself in any community which is in any way selective of its membership. I guess the acid test I use is that if I truly feel that I can say ?that makes no sense to me at all? about the most scared belief of a group, or ?This is what I think? and not come under attack then things are probably not too bad.
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Are you another JP? :question:
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Wow, I wonder who's voice to hear in these posts? I was at the Seed from '79 to '86, so it's likely I know it. Out of curiosity, I'd love to know, but anyway, I'd like to respond to your post.
1. Anyone who sells spirituality for money, and anyone who buys it, need to be extra attentive. The danger is obvious.
2. I think it's OK to be angry at (with) the Seed, and OK to love it too - at least parts of it. The danger is to choose one position that obliterates the truth. For many of us, who were at the Seed at least nominally on our own volition, there were percieved benefits that kept us there, as well as the fear of loss that reinforced it.
3. My post-Seed experience has been one where I am skeptical of gurus, dogma and 'us and them' thinking. I prefer to find my spirituality from friends, and keep it loose and free. Much of what I have learned has been offered for nothing, with no program...I have also paid for workshops, donated money, and attended services, which I am careful to monitor...
4. When you enter into a religious experience, you are putting yourself into a vulnerable position, a position of trust, and this is easily exploited by charlatans.
5. Finally, thanks for being a part of this forum. I would love to hear from John or Cindy too, but I sent an email which was never answered, so I can only guess that they are not interested in communicating with me, all professions of love, made at the Seed and now after, to the contrary!
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From James Baldwin?s Another Country: ?Perhaps such secrets, the secrets of everyone, were only expressed when the person laboriously dragged them into the light of the world, imposed them on the world, and made them a part of the world?s experience. Without this effort, the secret place was merely a dungeon in which the person perished; without this effort, indeed, the entire world would be an uninhabitable darkness; and she saw, with a dreadful reluctance, why this effort was so rare. ? [People were] afraid, afraid of things dark, strange, dangerous, difficult, and deep.?
I find that the more I delve my past, including my experience with The Seed, the more questions are raised, and I find these questions, this complexity, this ambiguity, affirming, in and of itself. What I found most oppressive about The Seed was the simplicity, its insistence upon a single, dominant narrative to the exclusion of all others. Coming from a family of silence and suppression, I am grateful to see people here speaking, delving, searching and facing the range of emotions that accompany this search--rage, despair, frustration, confusion, laughter, forgiveness. I don't think any of this is a "negative expenditure of energy," but rather, our life's work, the fuel for art, social and political reform, the evolution of the self and our connection with others. All I'm saying is keep on keepin' on--keep speaking, reading, thinking, searching, asking questions even when there are no simple answers.
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Anon wrote: "I find that the more I delve my past ? "
I recall reading about a Zen Buddhist meditation involving a master who would whack the meditating monk on the back just at the right moment to aid achievement of a transcendental experience. This experience and the post noted above has been a bit like that for me only inverted. Lots of sticks and a very well timed meditation. I would share more of the details but hope the feeling comes through. Thanks to all who enagaged me here. Especially you Stripe. I don?t think anybody could have pissed me off quite so effectively and completely right in the midst of my most sincere attempts to be completely spiritual!
Love, Peace, and Light
The long-winded, flowery-verbiaged, (uncharacteristically-exhuberant) anon. :em:
P.S. Frank Zappa is one of the past century?s premiere musical luminaries though I personally have never considered integrating his work into my core philosophy.
P.P.S. To anyone who thinks they might know me and have concern. No, I have not started taking drugs again.
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anon #1, whoever you are, I want you to know I can sincerely tell you are thinking about what happened to you and have an open mind. I want to thank you for coming here and if you feel like sharing who you are to me privately, you can email me at rocky93@tampabay.rr.com or post a private note to me (button at the left..private messages). I will keep it confidential unless you tell me otherwise.
I look forward to your continued participation and would also like to suggest to you any other former seed participants you are in touch with, please invite them here to read and post.
To anon # 2 here with the brilliant observations about newage (my friend Wes Fager says you pronounce that just like sewage... :grin:) principals and the complete idiocy of spirituality at a price...thank you also for coming here. I believe you may be a new poster, and if you are, please register and participate. Your comments about your experience at the seed in the second post were relayed in a deeply intellectual way and we would love to have you stick around.
To both of you, Neither has told us a seed story! Thank about something that happened or seemed important at the time you were there and share it with us.
Thanks in advance.
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(anon#1 here) Thanks for the invitation GregFL but I will respectfully decline. This has with all honesty been a valuable, though sometimes painful, experience for me. I really do hope that the value was shared ( the pain is optional ).
My ?recovery? was probably way too lengthy (though possibly exactly right) and I really don?t want to engage in a lengthy ?recovery from recovery?. No judgment whatsoever here on anyone else?s needs or preferences. Sincere best wishes to all.
P.S. Wouldn?t want to leave on too harmonious a note. I read anon#2?s post as an affirmation rather than condemnation of new age philosophy. Guess it all depends on what you think new age is or what part of it you look at and where you are coming from.
?Not-knowing is true knowledge
Presuming to know is a disease.
First realize that you are sick;
Then you can move toward health.
The Master is her own physician.
She has healed herself of all knowing.
Thus she is truly whole?
Tao Te Ching (Translation by Stephan Mitchell)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 5?v=glance (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060812451/104-6482238-2867155?v=glance)
(sorry I?m kind of a computer dork and don?t know how to make the link look pretty. I hold no finiancial interest in amazon)
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I think there are 3 anons... I am responsible for the Didion and Baldwin quotes, but not the "brilliant" post. I am writing about my experience and I think it's best, at this point, to remain anonymous, but given that there's no acknowledgement of my experience in The Seed (not voluntary) or the implications of that experience in my family, I like to check in here once in a while and just see that it's all REAL. I need that to keep going.
Thank you!
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I find it interesting that so many people are unwilling/uninterested in exploring their past, and although I think it is one thing to 'move on' with your life, it's quite another to disregard the lessons learned and cover everything with minimizing dismissals or denial. For me, the Seed experience was powerful, if only because I have never before or since so wholeheartedly abandoned myself to a cause or group - wouldn't I want to learn from that? I don't see it as 'recover from recovery' if one can even ever do such a thing, but a natural need to look back in honesty at my actions in the past, and even to share that with others who may (or may not) have experienced the same or similar circumstances. However, I think I am fairly unique in that I don't think I ever close the door on a person or on the past, for me it is continuously interweaving. Not everyone operates like that I understand. But I think it's valuable. I am glad for all of the postings that I read here, and though I do check this site fairly regularly I can assure you that I am not writing from my bunker, surrounded by Seed t-shirts and license plates, obsessing over what my oldcomer told me 25 years ago (though I do still dream about the Seed, that's true)...
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Three anons, eh?
well, Anon #1, your partipation has certainly been valuable to us (me?) as well. Instead of being so final, why not come around once in a while. You need not to "recover from recovery" to be here. Hell, I am not in any such recovery.
As far as new age philosophy, I must offer you an apology. I recently subscribed to "science of mind" magazine after finding a wonderfull article about letting go some 10 months ago. I will tell you it was one of the most brilliant things I have ever read. There is value in things and it is unfair to so harshly critize, so again I apologize.
Drop in on us from time to time.
Anon # 2, where are you? great post.
And now, number #3, I really enjoyed your insights as well. Please PM me and explain a little about what you are writing...
Good day to all.
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GregFL wrote: ?However, there is one thing you fail to understand Anon. The first step to releasing yourself from the prison of cults, gurus and other mind sapping bullshit sometimes is to get good and angry. Feel it..understand what happened to you. Only then can some move to step two..compartmentalizing the experience and putting it in their past, forgiving (not forgetting!) the tresspassers, finding understanding in the whole experience, and moving on.
Anon wrote:
I realize not everyone?s experience was voluntary. Perhaps my assumption that after all of these years most who where forcefully or legally ?commited? would be up to your step two was not a good one.
Well, I understand that on some level, but really it is quite normal for people to have this unresolved.
I will try to use an analogy. Suppose you had someone in your life that did something to you that you perceived as horrible when you were a teenager and you cut all contact with them. You didn't even think much about this person over the years but instead set out to put it behind you, and were quite successfull at doing so. Still, something remained unresolved. Lo and behold, 30 years later this person knocks on your door. During this time you remember what happened and get a little angry..at the same time other memories flood back and you talk it out, but now from the perspective of an adult.
This message board can be like that for some people. Most people haven't been laying around for 30 years mad at the seed. The issue however, due to its inherent nature of necessary secrecy, shame and failures of others to understand, has gone unresolved in many people. When they first come here it is not uncommon, and I experienced something similar, to experience a whole range of emotions and memories.
One of my visions of this website was to bring all participants on all sides of the issues out. I have actively solicited people pro, con and indifferent to come here. I felt this way, the truth would find its own way and hopefully people would find an arena to revisit, work thru, understand, forgive,complain or praise and hopefully resolve the issue within themselves and even hopefully with their families.
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I drove from Ohio to Florida with John Perloff. We followed each other there in our cars in the quest to rejoin the Seed in Florida after they closed in Ohio. I had the most huge crush on him at the time. I believe Cindy is the girl he married from the program...having a hard time remembering the names after all these years and putting it all back together. Something that took me years to block out, pleasantly so. If it is her she and I used to race in the pool every day nearly. I won! When I heard they were an item I remember a feeling of surprise that having anything to do with boys there was even an option an how I had missed my chance with him if he ever even liked me. She started taking the pill and that was public knowlege among the girls. I was a virgin till I was twenty. Glad they ousted my sweet ass. They stole my youth....no petting, or movies with boys.......they turned me into a public relations director with a shirt, a pin and an I love you go to the seed and get straight line.....Years of childhood and life taken sitting in a fucking chair kissing thier asses....cleaning thier house. I'm not mad. :flame: I haven't even gone to check out the web site but a part of me is really saddened to hear that this ended up being his end. Sounds like some sort of cheap sell God to you scheme. I hate nothing more than to see impoverished people desperately reaching out for hope or help and paying GOD so GOD can buy another mercedes while their children go hungry and their windows unrepaired..........but there is that big lovely CHURCH. I loved the Seed and everyone in it to no end and they ripped out my heart and betrayed my loyalty and never even gave me a clear valid reason. To think of it all these years later after finding this site because of something my mother said to provoke me to look brings back memories of happiness and also those of sheer pain and asbsolute inadequescy. My own brother would shove my head in the sink in the morning while I was washing my face screaming seedling...he ran away from there. He was assisted by the rest of my family. I wore the pin and the shirt and was a walking advertisment for the Seed. I have no childhood friends. I cut all ties and betrayed them in the fear of non-compliance with seed rules. My situation at home was rotten and they helped me allianate myself from it not fix it in the least. Worked for me. I even went back to my home town years later to appologize and my old best girlfriend would not even come to the door. Can't blame her. I do not have a truly beautiful prolific post like the ones I just read. I don't have the energy. I have a life to maintain. I have however just spent almost an entire day reading this stuff. So sorry that I fed into it all and how shocked am I that you are here? I have believed all these years withought any help from a "group" that I was truly brainwashed to line their pockets. I sat with a calculator once and mutliplied what my Mom paidx the number of successes they claimed and the money we all donated from our paychecks at Christmas, free food from parents, free rent from the church, ect. and realized he was a millionaire. I also worked for the Playboy Club years later, and found out he wasn't shit there and had LIED to us. Hate liars...........I never ever forgot some of the people I in a way grew up with and did a couple of searches with the yellow pages to no satisfaction. I tried to call the Seed two times over those years to demand an explanation for what was done to me but got a recording and no answer. I want the hand quilted pillow I gave art(small letters) back..............LOL They broke my heart. Gonna sign in and pick a name and tell what they did to me Seed 76' cleveland-81' Lauderdale Who thinks he was sleeping with Libby? I was in their house and he and his wife? had two single beds in their room, "because he snoared" Why were all the women on staff really beautiful and full figured, except Ginger....no offense Ginger. Who was that Gay type chic...always soooo funny........biatch. Stuck up to no end her and her yuppie wanna be lover Leann. Rode to work with her and don't even remember her name. Staff biatch. I hope they are here and reads this to know how miserable they were to me. They frigin enjoyed it! I need to go back and read the lets all let go and love each other post! Sounds like a f'ing lawyer to me!!!!!!!!!!
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I looked at those photos and the guy with the died hair looks extremely familiar. Too bad he doesn't have the brains to die the beard too...LMAO
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I think you might be mistaking Ginger with Terry?
Most of staff was flat chested.. Lybbi,Cookie ect
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You weren't by any chance in the pool in the apartment complex in Ft Lauderale that day Art got into it with a crazy druggie....
:grin:
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Hey Anon,
I'm with you on this one. What kind of people scam and sell like this to create their own cultette ? Creepy people. And this guy Perloff gives me the creeps. I admit that I have never in my life spoken to him or his wife - but I do know a lizard when I see one.
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I WAS IN THE POOL NEARLY EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE DOWN THERE. CAN YOU REFRESH MEMORY ON THAT STORY BECAZUE IT DOES SOUND REALLY FAMILIAR. i HAVE A VAGUE RECOLECTION OF ART HAVING A MARK ON HIS FACE AND SOMEONE GETTING HIT. DIDN'T EVERYONE HAVE TO GET OUT OF THE POOL AND GO HOME. I USED TO PLAY TENNIS TOO. THOSE WERE THE FUN PARTS. ANYONE REMEMBER WHEN THERE WAS SUPPOSEDLY A RAPIST LOOSE AND NO GIRL WAS ALOUD ALONE AT ANY SECOND IN THE COMPLEX. WE HAD TO HONK OUR HORN COMING HOME AND TWO WOULD GO GET THE ONE.
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I remember this- I lived in those apts as well Cranbrook Club Apts. I remember the rapist in the newspaper as well. wasn't that like 1978-1979?
God- we're old.
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On 2005-05-20 11:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I WAS IN THE POOL NEARLY EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE DOWN THERE. CAN YOU REFRESH MEMORY ON THAT STORY BECAZUE IT DOES SOUND REALLY FAMILIAR. i HAVE A VAGUE RECOLECTION OF ART HAVING A MARK ON HIS FACE AND SOMEONE GETTING HIT. DIDN'T EVERYONE HAVE TO GET OUT OF THE POOL AND GO HOME.
Yes they did!
read the story from the druggies perspective.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... &forum=8&4 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=636&forum=8&4)
I was that "druggie" And I was pissed! There was no punch, but I threatened t kill Art, you you all wallked off together as a group.
I have been tellilng this story for 20 something years, with no independent verification. Please read the post, and DO ME A BIG FAVOR, revisit your memory bank and TELL IT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF A SEEDLING THAT WAS THERE>.
I would be much obliged!!!!!
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Hi, I signed in. I do remember that they said there had been an altercation and we had to leave and something about art being attacked. I am pretty sure I was on the other side of the pool and only saw it from a distance and after it was already happening. I read your story on that link and can imagine how you felt. I would definitely confront him if I saw him today and would flip if he touched me. Sorry I can't tell you more but it sounds like it happened pretty quick and I missed all but the end. Aslo I don't think it was just girls there. The guys lived in the same complex but a different building and again it's really vague but I think guys went over there.....I barely barely remember it and was not a real witness just remembering we all had to leave and seeing a small scuffle. Why do you need anyone elses version? Up his.
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I looked at their site and it is truly gross. It is a cult franchise in my estimation, and ony costs $12,500 but you can get a scholarship for a grand.....TLMAO.....eewwww. I am so glad he didn't like ME!
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On 2005-05-21 07:21:00, MG wrote:
"Hi, I signed in. I do remember that they said there had been an altercation and we had to leave and something about art being attacked. I am pretty sure I was on the other side of the pool and only saw it from a distance and after it was already happening. I read your story on that link and can imagine how you felt. I would definitely confront him if I saw him today and would flip if he touched me. Sorry I can't tell you more but it sounds like it happened pretty quick and I missed all but the end. Aslo I don't think it was just girls there. The guys lived in the same complex but a different building and again it's really vague but I think guys went over there.....I barely barely remember it and was not a real witness just remembering we all had to leave and seeing a small scuffle. Why do you need anyone elses version? Up his."
HA! Somone that was there!
Only because to me at the time it was a big deal, and I have been called a liar several times by seedlings.
:grin:
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Cranbrook. It always blows my mind to read about Cranbrook. I'm pretty sure that's where I used to tag along when my brother practiced w/ the Crusty Nostrils. Tom Mc and Thom Mc? Both tenors, one w/ a wooden leg?
Then later, like mid `80's, a buddy of mine was on the maint staff. Craziest mfin super you ever dreamt of. Ernie Gallo was his name. Got permission from his boss if he could mount a tv in the wall between rooms. Never bothered to mention that it was a support wall. Just got a jackhammer and proceeded w/ the plan. Constantly plotting some practical joke on a friend or stranger and dreaming of comic stardome. He's one of the voices of Treasure Island at Paramount these days.
And I have to wonder if, all the time were were hanging out in Ernie's apt, pranking the poor Dominos guy and such, if you guys were writing MIs in another building... or was it not Cranbrook, but one of the other nearly identical compounds?
God, I am SO glad to be out of Florida! Understand that legal and illegal are political, and often arbitrary,
categorizations; use and abuse are medical, or clinical, distinctions.
--Abbie Hoffman
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Hello, I checked out your link/site Ginger. You had some things I searched on the web and that takes a lot of work! I see you all over other groups trying to be supportive. It is nice that you care like that. You are welcome to contact me any time like you offered.
To greg, It's good you found someone that remembers and validates your recolection but truly to all of them. Who gives a rat's ass what they think? They based most of the program on you questioning your realities and living by thiers. even if it was a total fantasy of yours. It would be most likely deserved. I would make a very bad witness in court but, the pool was adjacent to the tennis courts so if you were in the pool looking at the tennis court would it have been on the right side or left of the pool this happened? This is a quiz. LOL Not funny I'm sure but I have a pretty great memory. What bothers me and my only blank is who drove me to the airport? I can not seem to dig my memory bank up on that one. I would love it if there was anyone out there for me that would know why they dissmissed me like that. It will most likely always bug me when I do recall them. At Christmas it is hard not to hear the chants in the music....STILL!! I looked at this site tonight and want to send all my sympathy to those who got an even worse version it seems at STRAIGHT. It breaks my heart. All the other holes too. They are hurting the babies :scared:
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On 2005-05-22 00:43:00, MG wrote:
"Hello, I checked out your link/site Ginger. You had some things I searched on the web and that takes a lot of work! I see you all over other groups trying to be supportive. It is nice that you care like that. You are welcome to contact me any time like you offered.
To greg, It's good you found someone that remembers and validates your recolection but truly to all of them. Who gives a rat's ass what they think? They based most of the program on you questioning your realities and living by thiers. even if it was a total fantasy of yours. It would be most likely deserved. I would make a very bad witness in court but, the pool was adjacent to the tennis courts so if you were in the pool looking at the tennis court would it have been on the right side or left of the pool this happened? This is a quiz. LOL Not funny I'm sure but I have a pretty great memory. What bothers me and my only blank is who drove me to the airport? I can not seem to dig my memory bank up on that one. I would love it if there was anyone out there for me that would know why they dissmissed me like that. It will most likely always bug me when I do recall them. At Christmas it is hard not to hear the chants in the music....STILL!! I looked at this site tonight and want to send all my sympathy to those who got an even worse version it seems at STRAIGHT. It breaks my heart. All the other holes too. They are hurting the babies :scared: "
Ummm...I can´t remember where the tennis courts were...sigh.
Many years have gone past! However, I remmeber the incident right down to facial expressions of people in and around the pool. Funny how your brain dismisses some information and covets others.