Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2005, 12:38:00 AM
How many kids would give just about anything for 5 minutes to talk privately to someone who they love? How many kids would give anything for a hot shower? For a chance to take a long bath? To lay on their bed talking with their girlfriends? To just be normal teenage girls?
How many kids did anything so bad to deserve being locked up and taken away from their families? Did they really deserve to lose touch with their lives? With the world as they knew it? Yes, some were heavily into drugs and they needed help.
Some would say kids need to be taken away from their environment in order to free themselves of their addictions. Maybe that's true. But what says they have to go to such extremes as to take these children far away from their families for years at a time, to take them away from normal life?
There are other safe options. If a child is truly drug addicted there are licensed programs, there are outpatient programs, there is therapy, there are other options. And if the child is in need of drug rehab chances are medical insurance will cover the cost of a safe program. So, why send them away to these places where we now know the possiblity of neglect and abuse is so high.
Knowing what I know I would never consider putting a child in any private residential facility. Period.
Kids need to fall down sometimes, pick themselves up, brush themselves off, and then keep going. Trying to shelter them from the world is not the answer. Remember what was said: anytime you sign away your parental rights you open the door to child abuse and neglect. There is so much truth to that.
I hope parents stop and think about what they are doing when they make the decision to send their child away. Read the stories. These kids are opening up their hearts and sharing their stories so that others do not have to go through what they have experienced. Please, listen to them. They have suffered and they need our support now.
Kerry, Melissa, and all the rest of the kids who post their stories here, there are plenty of us here who support you. ::drummer::
Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2005, 09:48:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2005, 10:17:00 AM
Maybe they would learn to appreciate their children more and learn to appreciate what they have.
Post by: Perrigaud on April 01, 2005, 08:02:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on April 01, 2005, 08:30:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on April 11, 2005, 12:00:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-03-30 21:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"How many kids tonight are going to bed in strange beds, are sleeping in a room full of strangers, full of kids who wake up in the middle of the night screaming with nightmares and night terrors? How many kids are missing their moms, their dads, their brothers, their sisters, their aunts, their uncles, their grandparents?
How many kids would give just about anything for 5 minutes to talk privately to someone who they love? How many kids would give anything for a hot shower? For a chance to take a long bath? To lay on their bed talking with their girlfriends? To just be normal teenage girls?
How many kids did anything so bad to deserve being locked up and taken away from their families? Did they really deserve to lose touch with their lives? With the world as they knew it? Yes, some were heavily into drugs and they needed help.
Some would say kids need to be taken away from their environment in order to free themselves of their addictions. Maybe that's true. But what says they have to go to such extremes as to take these children far away from their families for years at a time, to take them away from normal life?
There are other safe options. If a child is truly drug addicted there are licensed programs, there are outpatient programs, there is therapy, there are other options. And if the child is in need of drug rehab chances are medical insurance will cover the cost of a safe program. So, why send them away to these places where we now know the possiblity of neglect and abuse is so high.
Knowing what I know I would never consider putting a child in any private residential facility. Period.
Kids need to fall down sometimes, pick themselves up, brush themselves off, and then keep going. Trying to shelter them from the world is not the answer. Remember what was said: anytime you sign away your parental rights you open the door to child abuse and neglect. There is so much truth to that.
I hope parents stop and think about what they are doing when they make the decision to send their child away. Read the stories. These kids are opening up their hearts and sharing their stories so that others do not have to go through what they have experienced. Please, listen to them. They have suffered and they need our support now.
Kerry, Melissa, and all the rest of the kids who post their stories here, there are plenty of us here who support you. ::drummer:: "
Post by: Anonymous on April 11, 2005, 12:20:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-01 05:02:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"I personally didn't care that I was away from my parents. I didn't care that I couldn't talk to them. Didn't care to be with my friends cause they really weren't friends. I had a hot shower. I needed time to figure out things and it took a year and some months. I was relieved. I didn't appreciate much. Now thanks to the facility I was in I appreciate so much more. Huh, imagine that. My friends would agree that they too didn't want to talk to their friends or families at that time. Therapy? Please I b/s my way out of therapy and laughed at them in their faces. Outpatient Facility? Not for long I was running away. Drugs (prozak)? Yeah they did nothing for them. Normal Teenager? Not me, I was an extremist. I didn't get abused. I know there are cases (that are true) of abuse. I feel for them. I know that not every child deserves to be sent away. Most are just doing the regular teenage rebellion. Not me and others. We were losing ourselves and didn't care at all. "
I notice you didn't mention juvie. Did you spend time in juvenile detention? If so, what were the differences?
Timoclea
Post by: Anonymous on April 11, 2005, 11:21:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on April 14, 2005, 05:11:00 PM
Amanda
Post by: Antigen on April 14, 2005, 05:52:00 PM
Preacher man don't tell me heaven is under the earth; you don't know what life is worth;.......If you know what life is worth, you will look for your's on earth.
--Bob Marley
Post by: Anonymous on April 14, 2005, 08:45:00 PM
1) To use wrongly or improperly; misuse
2) To treat in a harmful way
3) to insult; revile
4) wrong, improper, or harmful use, misuse
5) harshly or coarsly insulting language
6) bad treatment, maltreatment
Would I define any of my expereinces at the program in that way? No. And what you said was not accurate. The person is not "severed from communication from the outside world" in the program. I could write as many letters to the people I wanted to. That is, if Im correct, a form of communication. And I did go into the "outside world" on more than several occasions. Actually the longer I was there the more I went into public. For instance, we went to a public gym to work out. I went and did community service at a convelecent home and at an elementary school close to the facility. I went to a dentist on the outside, I went gardening with a couple of girls up the street from my facility, I went to a ceramics class put on by a staff member in her studio once a week. I was not totally cut off.
I never divulged anything I wasnt comfortable sharing with my group. I shared with my therapist about it, but I was not forced to talk about anything super sensitive with my whole group. I did because I wanted to, but otherwise, no. In seminars I said some uncomfortable things to the group, but I was ok with that because we had all girl seminars and my facilitator was a woman, so not a big deal to me. Plus the girls I was in a group with I was very good friends with and felt like I was sharing wiht a close friend instead of a troubled teen as you put it. So no I dont consider my experience there abusive.
Amanda
Post by: Anonymous on April 14, 2005, 09:07:00 PM
In terms of the abuse that goes on at other facilities, our facility was not like that. As Iv'e said in other posts, I feel it was a good thing for me and was a great tool for my life, and I know perri agrees. I was extremely unhappy before the program. I had a multitude of problems that woudl take too long to mention them all. A few were drug and alcohol abuse, depression, suicidal tendancies, self mutilation, bulimia, dropping out of school, ect. I was extremely unhappy and felt basically like crap all the time. My parents tried all kinds of stuff to help me to no avail. I was sent to the program when i was 16. It was strange because i remember praying to god or whatever was ot there to just help me. And then shortly after I went to Cross Creek Manor. I am not a religious person, although I do think that life is more than a big mistake, but i thought in a strange way my prayer was being answered. I knew I needed to get away from my friends, who were basically just dragging me into a deeper hole, and I needed to be somewhere where I couldnt hurt myself anymore. I was scared about going to a new place, and was sad to be away from my family, but I knew I needed help. When I graduated 14 months later I can tell you I am a differetn person than when I went in. I look at my past now and I dont regret it, but I cant believe I was ever that way. I still have hard times now and again, but thats life and I feel I am well equiped to deal wit whatever comes my way. I have worked hard outside the program too on myself and it is challenging for me sometimes to handle life without crutches. But even when i slip (hey Im human) I still can deal with it and I dont stay stuck in depression and all that. I havent had a suicidal thought in 4 years and havnt self mutilated in 4 years. I still struggle with smoking cigarettes and bulimia, but i am getting help for both. I actually want to get better now instead of giving up on myself like I used to. I can say I am much happier now than I was then. I dont think the program is soly responsible for my happiness, but it certainly assisted.
Who knows where Id be now, who id be now, ect. I might have actually killed myself. I had alcohol poising several times and had a few close calls so that might have done me in. Mostly I probably would just be depressed and unhappy. Because of my eating disorder I lost 60 pounds in a couple of months and was dangerously sickly because of it. That might have been a threat to my life as well. But I can say I am greatful for not knowing what could have happened and am happy wiht who i am now.
I hope it wasnt too presumptuous to answer a post to Ashley, I just hope my post can be helpful as well. If you have anymore questions, please dont hesitate to ask.
Amanda
Post by: Antigen on April 14, 2005, 09:20:00 PM
Most people take these things for granted and would feel ill-treated if someone withheld them. In fact, outside of the troubled parent industry, it actually takes a hearing by a judge and/or a minimum number of psyche professionals to withhold that level of normal communication. Even in prisons and jails, they can charge a lot for it and play games w/ actual access, but even a convicted murderer, con man or thief has the right to communicate with anyone, including the media and any government agency he pleases.
Sounds like they did about the same thing wrt processing out as they did in Straight. Except one thing. When we made 3rd phase, we had to put in for permission to attend work or school. I can't remember whether we got stood up at homes rap or not when we put in for school or work, I think so. We'd have to explain why we were ready and/or deserved to go to work or school. Then various group members would get a shot at commenting on the topic, ask questions, demand answers, totally blow you away and call you full of shit... whatever. Then we waited.....
The basic decision in each case would be announced to the whole group. If it was an open meeting night, then it would be announced again to the parent and group during that meeting (which, btw, worked very like a mini seminar... twice a week... every week...)
But I don't remember a school aged kid ever being denied permission to go back to school. Only 18yos got to go to work instead. And they were lucky. In school, there were always other Straightlings around. Any one could turn you in for even the suggestion of not stridently sticking by the rules and doing it w/ entheusiastic posativity! :smile:
Did you have to go to school w/ other WWASPies? Did the other kids keep their distance? What was it like for you working in the real world while living the Program culture?
who needs regular piss tests more than a former blowski who has his finger on the button?
--Chuck Beyer
Post by: Anonymous on April 14, 2005, 10:38:00 PM
The reality is the kids that go there are minors. thecnically, all their parents have to do is feed them, clothe them, and give them a sanitary home. Minors dont really have alot of rights by law. It is the parents who take the fall for a minors actions. If their child gets in trouble, they get in trouble. I think as an adult it is differetn when it comes to rights. Even though they have the right to call people in jail, they cant call whenever they want. If you are in lockdown, you can call. You have to call when they tell you to. When my husband was in jail for this ridiculous drug charge, he wrote as the main communication, because you had to call collect and he could only call at certain times.
what is "stood up at home raps"? We just had the opportunity to sign up for community service and all that and anyone could go, as long as you were an upper phase. I remember I was on 6 and went to Vegas on a phase 6 trip. It was rad and I had an awsome time. So they werent that strict about that stuff. If you were on the college program, you went to community college and got to do alot of stuff outside CCM. Ask Perri, she was a college girl.
We didnt have open meeting night. We had room night in the upper phase facility where you just stayed in your room for an hour and talked. It was alot of fun actually. I miss that.
No one had a job I dont think. the college program was the only school outside of school at CCM. The school there worked great for me. I had dropped out before going, so I had to make up a semester and do 11th and 12th grade. I made all that up wiht As and Bs and graduated High School 3 days before graduating the program. I liked the self paced thing and people just kept to themselves in school. No one really talked and we just worked on our stuff, which was good for me.
I went to class wiht my group. As I said it wasnt bad. Did you guys go to public school while in the program? I think that is what you are saying. We went on the facility grounds so no one other than the kids in my group went to school wiht me. I didnt work or go to school outside the program while in the program so i cant really answer that last one.
I have read up on your Straight Inc place. I cant believe that. I really feel like I can understand the program hostility you have now a little better. Trust me, if it had been the same where i was, I woudl feel the same way! But I can say it was close, but not that close. I really hate that they treated you like that. They are supposed to be giving help and trying to help the kids, not destroy them. I really feel that for the most part, anyone i met at the program (staff, facilitators, therapists, ect) really wanted to help me and cared about what they were doing. I really feel bad for how they treated you. I am not a WWASP fan really, I just think the program I went to had a better idea of what they were doing and were actually trying to help. I really hate that the people who support the program I went to have willingly supported those programs as well. But I can say CCM has the right idea anyway. But trust me. I am in no way supportive of WWASP for being a G.W. contributor and for opening and supporting abusive programs.
Amanda
"In nature there are neither rewards nor punishments, only consequences."
-Ingersol
"
Post by: Anonymous on April 14, 2005, 10:53:00 PM
How long ago were you in the program you were in if you dont mind me asking? Im assuming that program has been shut down. I cant remember. Im just curious.
Amanda
"There are alot of psychopaths in prison, unfortunatly most are on the staff."
- Craig Charles
Post by: Perrigaud on April 15, 2005, 06:17:00 AM
Hell yes the program helped me. It didn't fix me as I was not broken. I'm not a toy I'm a person. I needed guidance to help me figure out what the hell was going on. I needed help forgiving myself and others. I needed a break from all the crap I had going on around me. I went to a residential treatment facility. I had a therapist that helped me tremendously. I didn't feel abandoned. I was pissed that I was in a place I couldn't run away from. I was happy to be away from my famiy. Even now I am grateful I got to go through the program. Again not everything is agreeable. It's not perfect and there are things I disagree with. But I never got abused. I gained so much insight by going through the program. How would my life be like? Dunno. Can't say for sure. However I did attempt suicide (half hearted of course). Maybe I would have kept spiraling down and kept hurting people physically and mentally? Who knows. And maybe I would've finally gotten caught, gone to juvi, and decided to get my life straight. Who knows?
Post by: Antigen on April 15, 2005, 12:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-14 19:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Antigen,
How long ago were you in the program you were in if you dont mind me asking? Im assuming that program has been shut down. I cant remember. Im just curious.
Amanda
"There are alot of psychopaths in prison, unfortunatly most are on the staff."
- Craig Charles "
It's in my signature. I was in Straight from `80 - `82. Straight, Inc. is gone as of around `93, but they didn't actually shut down. Zealots never do. Whenever a program would lose it's license they just pull essentially the same shell game as coal mining operations do to avoid liablity; they incorporate under different names and pretend to be different. Straight, Orlando is now operating under the name SAFE, Orlando. Detroit is now Pathway Family Center (also in Utah, SLC if I'm not mistaken). Cincinatti is now Kids Helping Kids. Altlanta; Phoenix Family Institute. And there are others.
WWASP does the same thing. Dundee is gone, but I understand they're opening in the same location under a new name soon, if not already. They've had at least 7 programs shut down that we know of. But they just keep on going under various corporate names. If you want a good laugh, take a look at all the backpedaling Litchfield and Hinton have been doing over in Boonville, Mo. There's extensive discussion about that in this forum. "Oh no, Kemper will have nothing to do w/ WWASP, except for ALL of the money, ALL of Randall's experience and ongoing affiliation w/ J. Atkin's SkyWest." :roll:
They used to burn witches. Today we laugh at them. Today we jail people for marijuana. Tomorrow they'll laugh at us.
--Robert "Rosie" Rowbotham
Post by: Antigen on April 15, 2005, 12:36:00 PM
I think I know what you're refering to in your comments about juvy. I made a comment some days ago about the relative unliklihood of kids going to jail for drug use. You seem to now believe that the only reason you didn't land up in jail is that you were extremely lucky. Roughly how many of your peers actually wound up in jail? I'm guessing a very small number as compared to the number of them who were involved in illicit drug use.
The point being that the WWASP programs, just like the Straight programs, grossly overstate the risks involved in NOT using their programs.
Every act of a delegated authority, contrary to the tenor of the commission under which it is exercised, is void. No legislative act, therefore, contrary to the Constitution, can be valid. To deny this, would be to affirm, that the deputy is greater than his principal; that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting by virtue of powers, may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid."
--Alexander Hamilton
Post by: Timoclea on April 15, 2005, 01:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-15 03:17:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"No, never did go to Juvi due to the fact that I never got caught. People knew it was going on however they couldn't say much. Schools kicked me out but never had enough to prove anything. Hence the kicking me out. I was on juvinile diversion for a school fight.
Hell yes the program helped me. It didn't fix me as I was not broken. I'm not a toy I'm a person. I needed guidance to help me figure out what the hell was going on. I needed help forgiving myself and others. I needed a break from all the crap I had going on around me. I went to a residential treatment facility. I had a therapist that helped me tremendously. I didn't feel abandoned. I was pissed that I was in a place I couldn't run away from. I was happy to be away from my famiy. Even now I am grateful I got to go through the program. Again not everything is agreeable. It's not perfect and there are things I disagree with. But I never got abused. I gained so much insight by going through the program. How would my life be like? Dunno. Can't say for sure. However I did attempt suicide (half hearted of course). Maybe I would have kept spiraling down and kept hurting people physically and mentally? Who knows. And maybe I would've finally gotten caught, gone to juvi, and decided to get my life straight. Who knows?"
Some kids are juvenile delinquents, and are not mentally ill. And I don't mean just status offenses like being sexually active or running away, or being truant. Some kids do things that do tangible harm to others, like assault and battery, or breaking and entering, or DUI, or shoplifting, or arson, or worse.
At least, if there's something wrong with their brains contributing to the behavior, we certainly can't identify it well enough yet to have any success using that as a model for helping them.
I doubt juvie is the absolute perfect facility, all implementations of juvie, everywhere, for dealing with hard-core juvenile delinquency.
I don't doubt that some of the programs, sometimes, under some staff and administration combinations, for some JD's, do a better job than the local juvie detention facility would do.
My problem isn't the existence of reform schools. My problem is the lack of procedural safeguards and enforcement mechanisms to make sure that only JD's are in the reform schools, that the JD's basic human rights are respected the same way they have to be in juvie--including timely and appropriate medical treatment, and that staffers have background checks and mechanisms to get bad staffers or admins out of the system efficiently and in a timely manner.
If the programs were *good* privately run versions of juvie, with the appropriate safeguards and enforcement mechanisms to ensure that they were and remained *good* versions, I'd wish they didn't have to exist, but I wouldn't have problem with them existing. I'd agree with their need to exist, just like I agree with the need for juvie to exist now.
I can accept and agree with the idea that for real JDs, you can potentially get better results shipping specific kinds of cases to specialized regional or national facilities rather than putting them in a one-size-fits-all local facility.
It's not the existence of specialized private reform schools for JDs that bothers me. It's the lack of safeguards.
Even real juvie has mentally ill JDs inappropriately placed or inappropriately deprived of correct psychiatric treatment.
I want reform, not closure.
One of my problems with the whole correspondence issue is philosophical. While parents can tell their kids that the kid can't play with or talk to Johnny across the street, they really can't keep the kid from talking to Johnny. While they may tell the kid that they can't see or talk to specific other kids at their school, they really can't enforce that if the kids have lunch or recess at the same time or ride the same bus.
Personally, I think that's a good thing.
And I think that minors do and ought to have certain basic rights that their parents shouldn't be allowed to interfere with. One of those rights is freedom of thought. My child may have to obey me, but if she thinks I'm full of shit about making her eat her vegetables, she has the right to freedom of thought to think that.
I may have a serious grudge against Dr. Seuss. Or horse stories. Or Laura Ingalls Wilder. But unless the story has a lot of sex or violence or racism or religious material, unless they homeschool them or keep them out of the public library, parents can't keep their children from reading Dr. Seuss or horse stories or Little House on the Prairie. And they can't keep their children from reading those stories at a neighbor's house unless they pretty much make the kid a prisoner in his or her own home.
I think that's a good thing.
I think it's good that parents don't and can't possibly have absolute control over the speech, or reading material, or thought, or TV viewing material, or radio listening material of their children. Some parents are flakes. Society has an interest in children growing up to be integrated and functioning members of society. Some of the natural and functional limitations on parental control of the inputs that shape their children's thoughts and the outputs that are expressions of those thoughts are good and necessary and appropriate.
We don't generally dictate these freedoms for the child from their parents' control by law, because we don't generally *have* to. We don't have to open that can of worms. The child gets around as much parental control as he or she usually needs to, usually all on his or her own, so that even when the parents are total flakes the kid has the ability to grow up with some sort of capacity to think for himself or herself and be functional in society.
But if it were to happen that parents were to *become* able to exercise full control over all these things, I think we *should* legislate to keep them from doing so---except in cases of legitimate parental concern about sex, violence, religious content, or racism/hate.
I don't think all parental control is legitimate.
In line with this philosophical position, I firmly believe that as long as children aren't advocating violence or other lawbreaking, as long as they aren't defaming anyone with untruths, as long as they aren't harrassing anyone---I believe one of their fundamental rights of communication ought to be to send letters to any person or people they want, saying anything they want, if they can get the stamps or computer access or whatever---that is, if someone gives them either stamps or computer access. Like the public library currently gives internet access and yahoo and hotmail give email accounts.
I think if children want to complain about their parents, or their school, or their church, or their other relatives, or their government, or the laws, or *anything*, that the right to freely complain to anyone in email or snail mail is a fundamental free speech right of each child that should be protected *from* their parents, their school, their government, etc.
Everybody, of whatever age, has the fundamental right to bitch in private correspondence, about anyone or anything, to anyone or any group that is willing to recieve the correspondence.
My biggest problem with the programs, philosophically, is that they interfere with that fundamental free speech right.
I think in their natural day to day environment at home, at school, and in the community, children of all and any ages enjoy the right to bitch. It's something you cannot physically limit *except* by jail and total surveillance.
I think that right has never been protected by law because it has never had to be.
I think now it has to be, and must be.
I think depriving these children of the fundamental right to sufficient privacy to bitch, whine, moan, and complain is one of the worst systematic abuses of the human mind and soul that these places, and the parents who abuse their discretion to use these places, perpetrate, and I find it deeply morally and intellectually and philosophically offensive.
I find it an absolutely obscene breach of human rights.
And I will oppose that breach to my dying breath.
What they do is inhuman, and horribly, horribly, monstrously wrong.
Timoclea
the war on drugs is but one manifestation, albeit a very dramatic one, of the great moral contests of our age -- the struggle between two diametrically opposed images of man: between man as responsible moral agent, 'condemned' to freedom, benefiting and suffering from the consequences of his actions; and man as irresponsible child, unfit for freedom, 'protected' from its risks by agents of the omnicompetent state.[ This Message was edited by: Timoclea on 2005-04-15 10:12 ][ This Message was edited by: Timoclea on 2005-04-15 10:14 ]
--Thomas Szasz
Post by: Antigen on April 15, 2005, 01:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-14 19:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
The reality is the kids that go there are minors. thecnically, all their parents have to do is feed them, clothe them, and give them a sanitary home.
I know they probably trot that out pretty often like a mantra. But the truth is that a parent who only provides minimum basics required by law is no parent at all. Every kid born on this Earth deserves a whole lot more than that. The law is written to draw a fairly definite line between kids who you just feel sorry for and those who actually need to be rescued from criminal abuse.
Quote
Minors dont really have alot of rights by law. It is the parents who take the fall for a minors actions. If their child gets in trouble, they get in trouble.
That's also way, way overplayed. Theoretically, yes, if a kid steals or destroys something AND gets caught AND convicted AND is sentenced to restitution, they ultimately hold the parent responsible financially. But that's a rare case. That's the little grain of truth on which they build the big lie that you should feel terribly guilty for making your parents' lives unmanagable. The greater truth is that all of us were kids once. Most of us embarassed and worried our parents from time to time. And we knew that (or should have known) when we decided to have kids.
Quote
I think as an adult it is differetn when it comes to rights. Even though they have the right to call people in jail, they cant call whenever they want. If you are in lockdown, you can call. You have to call when they tell you to. When my husband was in jail for this ridiculous drug charge, he wrote as the main communication, because you had to call collect and he could only call at certain times.
There's another difference. He was convicted of a crime. And there's a very important similarity, too. The "crime" was probably not a crime at all.
And, btw, this goes to why I'm so intensely interested in this industry all these years later. Here's a run-down of what the founders of Straight have been up to for the past 30 years:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... um=8#95628 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9165&forum=8#95628)
I don't know exactly where Litchfield puts his money. I do know that he invests heavily in legislation and legislators. And I'd be willing to gamble a small bit that his legislative investments lean toward laws and policies that favor his industry. For example, by law, you can't limit anybody's access to communication, especially communication w/ law enforcement or the media. But which Utah agency would be willing to enforce that law against WWASP after all the cash Litchfield has given them?
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what is "stood up at home raps"?
We had raps or groups ALL the time. That's just about all we did. To be stood up in rap meant litterlly to be told to stand up, answer questions from staff and group members, get yelled at, explain yourself, etc. If you put in to go to work or school after making 3rd phase, then staff would stand you up, ask you to explain why you deserved whatever you were asking for and then call on various group members to comment on it.
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We just had the opportunity to sign up for community service and all that and anyone could go, as long as you were an upper phase.
How did that work? Did you say you wanted to go back to school and staff denied permission? And how would you find out the decision? Was in announce to your peer group? Or were you told privately? What if you disagreed? What would happen if you said "No, I want to go to school, I don't want to do community service."
And what would you be required to do in order to attain a high enough phase to go to work or school? What if you simply didn't want to discuss your private issues w/ your peer group?
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We didnt have open meeting night. We had room night in the upper phase facility where you just stayed in your room for an hour and talked. It was alot of fun actually. I miss that.
From what I've read, I think Open Meetings were probably more similar to seminars. And I'd like to know more about that, too. What would happen if you just didn't go along w/ the seminars? I'm not talking about fighting or violence or anything. Just if you simply didn't agree to do or say whatever was required in the seminars, then what would happen?
But about room night. What kinds of things would you talk about? Did you have to be on a higher phase to have room night? What did you do on lower phases? And, again, what if you just didn't feel comfortable talking or listening to these other kids? Could you opt out?
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I went to class wiht my group. As I said it wasnt bad. Did you guys go to public school while in the program? I think that is what you are saying.
Well, after we made 3rd phase, we'd go to whatever school our parents decided. I went to a bizarre fundie Baptist school that used the PACE homeschool curriculum. There and in the public schools, though, there were other program kids. So you were effectively under surveilance ALL the time. It was a little different from WWASP, too, in that most of the clients were local people. So even after graduation, there was the 7th Step Society, w/ mandatory meetings (more group, as I understand it) and light surveilance. I never graduated, but I remember a few graduates started over or put on refreshers. That really was the last straw for me. When they added that aftercare program, that eliminated just about all of my incentive to try to graduate.
The 18+yos who went to work usually worked for Program affiliated companies too. And, of course, they had to get approval from staff to accept or leave a job. And the employer had to be willing to schedule their hours around Program requirements.
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We went on the facility grounds so no one other than the kids in my group went to school wiht me. I didnt work or go to school outside the program while in the program so i cant really answer that last one.
So, as long as you were there (how long?) you didn't leave the property except for planned, permitted trips, is that correct? And how many of those were there? I can remember, over two years, going on about 4 daytime permissions (otherwise, you'd stay home... meaning not one toe over the property line... on afternoons off) Then there was my 5th phase trip to Disney World and one out of town trip w/ my mother to visit my Brother in the next state.
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I have read up on your Straight Inc place. I cant believe that. I really feel like I can understand the program hostility you have now a little better. Trust me, if it had been the same where i was, I woudl feel the same way! But I can say it was close, but not that close. I really hate that they treated you like that. They are supposed to be giving help and trying to help the kids, not destroy them. I really feel that for the most part, anyone i met at the program (staff, facilitators, therapists, ect) really wanted to help me and cared about what they were doing. I really feel bad for how they treated you. I am not a WWASP fan really, I just think the program I went to had a better idea of what they were doing and were actually trying to help. I really hate that the people who support the program I went to have willingly supported those programs as well. But I can say CCM has the right idea anyway. But trust me. I am in no way supportive of WWASP for being a G.W. contributor and for opening and supporting abusive programs.
Amanda
"In nature there are neither rewards nor punishments, only consequences."
-Ingersol
""
I get the impression that CCM isn't the worst place on Earth. However, Tranquility Bay and High Impact are run by the same people. And it's my understanding that if a kid won't tow the line at one facility, they can be shipped off to a tougher facility. That happened, to some extent, at Straight too. If a kid ran away all the time, they'd ship them off to another facility in a strange town. But there was no equivalent to TB or High Impact.
There were just the timeout rooms right there in the building. So it's easier to see the direct connection between Straight, Sarasota and what happened to Sammie Monroe, for example. Someone from CCM can honestly say they never got pepper sparyed or put in OP. But can you say that a kid who fought or ran from CCM wouldn't land up in TB or another, tougher WWASP program?
It's the same thing. The vast majority of Straight, Sarasota clients never got sat on, never got roughed up. We saw it happen to others and decided to keep our damned opinions to ourselves and went along. The one time I got roughed up I knew very well how to avoid it and simply chose not to.
I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way.
--Robert Frost, American poet
Post by: Anonymous on April 15, 2005, 02:34:00 PM
Restitution is one of the better, most useful 'consequences', because it is directly related to the crime. I steal or break your property- I return or fix it or pay to replace it. Humiliation and shame are not necessary, and an apology should be offered when its genuinely felt. Ideally, the offender would spend time with the victim in order to foster a relationship and hopefully to develop mutual respect. That's usually when a genuine apology will happen. Unfortunately, our society/justice system is so fragmented/disconnected this rarely happens unless the parent initiates it, for their child's education.
Parents may cover the initial financial outlay, but the kid should be expected to pay it back. To do otherwise is to condition the kid to be dependent and irresponsible. Doesn't teach any useful social skills. Anytime you do for someone what they can do themselves, you are creating an invalid. (Yes, I know the term is not PC) It doesn't take a program to teach these life skills.
Programs are a punishment totally unrelated to the 'crime or offense'.
By the time my son recovered from 'PTSD' that he aquired in a program, he owed me several thousands of dollars, eight, if memory serves. He paid that debt, even though it took him until he was 21.
Post by: Anonymous on April 15, 2005, 04:56:00 PM
By no means was I implying that the "basic rights" of an adolecent are all a parent should do for their kids. But by law it is what it is. I think alot of the progblems we have as a society are based off the fact that parents dont have to provide more than that. They sit their 3 year olds in front of a tv all day and dotn spend time wiht them and let them see they are special and loved.
I know it isnt all the time a parent is responsible. You get plea agreements, soemtimes you get a nice judge who can work with the family. But when it comes down to it, court costs alone are way more than a kid can pay for, even wiht a part time job, and since a parent is the legal gaurdian and is reponsible for said child they have to make sure the fines are paid.
He definetly needed to have some sort of pentaly for his crime. He was drining under the influence of pot. I dont think him smoking pot was a crime, but he was endangering his and others lives. But he had started his drug classes before he went to sentancing, he had started community service and school. He took initiative to show the judge he was trying. But the judge didnt care. So yes he was doing something wrong, but no i dont think he should have gone to jail for it.
Did you not go to any school before phase 3?
The staff memebers thought up what would be fun for us to do and if you were on an upper phase you signed up on a sheet and went to that community service or to that activity. We had a staff that went with us. I am not sure what oyu mean by "did you say you wanted to go back to school and staff denied permission". We went on these activities usually after the school day. Sometimes during but for an hour or so. If you were on the sign up list, then you went. They didnt announce it. When it was time to go, the staff called for that activity and if you were going you gathered in a group and went in a van to the place.Community service was completely voluntary. If you didnt want to go, you didnt sign up. But I wanted to do it so I went. Another cool thing I did in the program was there was a high school near my facility and a couple of friends of mine who played soccer wanted to use the field in the morning before school to run around the track and play. We had to get up early to make it back for brakfast, but it was alot of fun. The staff members who took us were great. They could have said no because of how early it was and it was a ways down the road, but they were more than happy to come and played with us sometimes.
I went to school at the facility from day one. So you didnt have to be on any phase to do that. I just didnt talk to my group about stuff I didnt want to . my therapist was understanding and made the touchy stuff private. If I chose to share, the group was (for the most part) very understandign as well and listened well.
YOu choose out of a seminar if you dont want to do it. YOu can leave if you want. oyu had to write an essay abou why you chose out and read it with the therapist. I chose out and my therapist didnt do anything. If I didnt like the facilitator than I wasnt going to sit through a seminar listening to their bullshit. I only likes one facilitator and graduated each seminar wiht her. I was on phase three going through accountability and Lou was my facilitator. She was awful so i chose out. My therapist froze me on my phase (and since oyu had to go through accountablilty to be on the next phase, it didnt matter much)and I went the next time wiht Jan, the one I like, and graduated. I actually basically skipped level 4. I was on it for a week I think and my therapist moved me up to level 5 and sent me to the higher phase facility.
We would play a game, read stuff to each other (I love Dave Barry so i would read his collums and that was a hit) we would talk about our week, how we were doing in school, ect. We had room night at the upper phase facility so phase 3-6. Ususally you went to the facility on phase 4, but exceptions were made. If you didnt want to talk, which happened sometimes, you just read a book or did homework or whatever you wanted. We listened to the radio or watched tv too.
I would have HATED going to school in public while in the program. That would have sucked alot. I was glad to go to school on facility grounds.
I was there 14 months. I cant reall ycount how many times I left the grounds. Alot after phase 4. Not so much before that. We did leave for planned stuff though, yes, unless you were in the college program. They basically lived in a duplex near the community college. I wnet on 2 home passes, one to Colorado to stay a week with my Mom, one to colorado again to stay a week wiht my Dad and step mom. I also went on regular passes after phase 3 wiht my Mom and Dad. They woudl come to La Verkin to take me away and we woudl spend weekends together here and there. I also got to spend visits wiht my brother and sister and her new baby.
I remember soem kids talking about high impact. Sounded horrible. If the kids at CCM were not doing well in the program, they woudl send them there. After a few paretns found out what it was about they couldnt send the kids there anymore. So I dont hink they do that now. The tried to do that for a month or so. I can say that it was pretty rare to get sent to another program. mostly kids got sent to ours.
Post by: Anonymous on April 15, 2005, 05:04:00 PM
What is PTSD?
I have had to pay off some debts to my parents. Fortunatly now, I am paying off a home loan, not a court cost loan or anything like that. I think PSTD means post traumatic stress disorder? I am sorry your sons experience at his program was so horrible. Which program did he go to?
Post by: Anonymous on April 15, 2005, 05:10:00 PM
I am responding to your post to Perri about Juvi. Truthfully, when I was sixteen, only 2 kids i knew ent to jail. But now, almost all of my old friends from high school have would up in jail now that they are older and doing the same crap. Interesting i think. I remember several times almost getting into serious legal problems and was rescued by nice people. For instance I got drunk at school and of course was caught. But they didnt call the police on me. Again at the same school, they had evidence i was selling meth on school grounds. They searched me and found a knife and alcohol. no arrest. In high school I was caught smoking pot on campus. No arrest. I also got caught on the last day of school in Jr high smokin on campus and had drug pariphinallia (did I spell that right?) and again, no police were involeved. So I can say luck played a part for me anyway.
Amanda
Post by: Anonymous on April 15, 2005, 05:39:00 PM
I agree with you. even the programs that have the righ tidea (like CCM) still need reform.
Its true that a paretn shouldnt make all a child decisions for them. But isnt it true that your paretns sometimes know better. They dont say that stuff to make you angry or to hurt you. they say it because they care and love their kids. Personally I think if you teach your children well from birth on, they are more likely not to want to hang out wiht "Jhonny' in the first place. Kids find trouble when their bored. I know I did. If you teach them to be crative, to get involved in their community, to get involved wiht the world they probably wont even want to mess around wiht that stuff. I think the problem is parents set up their kids for failure and then want to fix it when its out of control. I think the reason I did so wel in the program was because I am a good person who did bad stuff. I wasnt a bad person acting good. Im not saying all kids who do bad in the program are bad at heart. Especially if you went to an abusive program, it would just make oyu more angry and insecure. But I think my parents did a good job of showing me right and wrong. They showed me I was loved. They did alot of good for me./ I just chose to ignore them as an adolecent. So sometimes oyu can do it "right" and still not have children who believe in themselves. But for the most part, I dont think parents try that and when their kid is out of control they have to use extremem measures to help them. I woudl be resntful of going to the program if my parents had been awful to me and were sending me there to fix their mistakes.
Have you heard of the V chip?
Not that I think the V chip is cool, but there are ways.
Also if you teach your kids to like themselves and respect heir minds and bodies, they wont want to watch crap on tv or listen to crap music or read crap magazines. I know a big issue of mine is pornography and strip clubs. I dont consider myself a feminist because i dont liek labels, but I think it is horrific and disgusting to teach our society that it is ok to treat women that way. and to teach women that it is ok fo rthem to do that to themselves. I am so adimently against this that i would be unbelieveble insane if my daughter ever got involved wiht anything liek that. Woudl I be able to stop her if she was over 18? Hell no. But if shes under 18 Im going to try all I can to steer her away from that. I think if a kid is expressing themselves though music or cloths thats one thing. But to live out a lifestlye that is unhelathy simply because you want to fit into an image is stupid. I will of course teach my daughter to respect herself, to know herself, to creativly express herself through art, music, sports, writing, whatever. But I think we are forgetting one thing. These parents who try to control their children arent mean evil control freaks, or trolls as you all put it. They are concerned and loving parents who hate to see their kids get hurt. Everyone has to fall, but to toatlly bust you head open on the concrete after falling over and over agin is not necesary. Kids are smart. Smarter then parent ralize. alot of kids just want to be heard, to be given a choice, to be given space. But if oyu cant handal space and privlege wihtout destroying your life, then maybe they shouldne get as much freedom. Do you agrre or not?
For sure. Kids SHOULD question the government, the school system, life. It is natural and necessary. They shold be free to express their feelings, as long as they arent hurting anyone by physically taking their feelings out on others.
I did think it was lame that it was a rul you couldnt talk bad about the president or the US of A. Fuck that. The government is the most corrupt agency alive and the president is a bunghole. I should have the right to express that. But look at our society outside the program. I will probably be on some government watch list for saying htat about Presidente Bushie. We are having our rights to free speach taken away as we speak by our government. Look at the patriot act. It isnt just a program thing, its and America thing. Granted, we have more rights than some, but we are not totally free to do whatever we want and say whatever we want. Did you know that the governemt can listen to your conversations without telling oyu if they deem it necessary? They can search your house too. Lunacy.
It is one thing to bitch about somehting and it is completely different to get involved to change it. Why do you think the President is still the president? Cuz no one wants to join up and kick him out. They think it is someone elses problem. Someone else will handel it. I think actions speak louder than words. Its like if you hate the president but didnt vote, dont bitch about it. If yuor not will ing to change the thing you hate, than whining will accomplish nothing but making oyu more unhappy about it.
Everyone can bitch if they want but at least try to find a solution instead of contributing to the negativity. Thats why I greatly admire all the people on this forum who were mistreated and are in a small way trying to change that. That is awsome.
Amanda
"If you- symbolicly speaking- get thrown in a tumbler (like a stone), it depends fully on yourself if you get crushed or if you come out of it a polished, sparkling diamond."
-Elisabeth Kubler-Ross
Post by: Antigen on April 15, 2005, 07:54:00 PM
Serious quesion. Do you understand how the program works? And what do you have to DO in order to attain a higher phase and gain back your basic rights?
Re your question re school in Straight, absolutely NO school till third phase. No reading anything, not billboards or cereal boxes or anything till 2nd phase. You could read a Bible on 2nd phase, that's it. If I remember right, no reading anything but Bibles and school books till 4th phase. And no tv or radio till 4th either.
After that, it got really tricky. You could, theoretically, watch, read or listen to anything you wanted to except for a few stations and things that were specifically prohibited. But you could also be confronted for choices that anyone (parent, staff, fellow phaser or sibling) thought might not be "in your best interest" or "an old druggie tie". So you had to be careful w/ your selections and always, always, no matter what, prepare a defense in your mind in case you did get confronted. At the same time, you had to be on the lookout for other kids doing or saying questionable things. If someone else turned them in and they realized that you might have seen it too, then you'd get confronted for cliquing (which they always spelled "clicking", but nobody ever had the guts or the masochistic tendancies to want to correct them)
But I think both of you (or are there three of you posting now?) have mentioned that there were kids who didn't belong there. Ashley, I know, has mentioned kids w/ serious mental problems who just didn't benefit and shouldn't have landed there. What about kids who land up there because their parents are over reacting? How do they fare? What if a kid goes in and, from day one, just insists that there's nothing wrong with them, they didn't deserve the strip search or restrictions and just refuses to confess to a problem they don't have. What happens to them?
I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Post by: Anonymous on April 15, 2005, 09:31:00 PM
Basically, you graduate the seminars then you go up for a phase with your group. If you got he majority you got the phase until you went up for 5. then you had to have the whole group vote you in. I spent alot of time wiht the girls in my group and got the phase every time I went up. We wore slippers until phase 3. then we wore sandals. We got to crotchet on phase two. Mostly you got alot of privleges on the upper phases (3-6) When you got on phase 3 you got to work in the kitchen. It was actually awsome cuz you could eat as much as you wanted (within reason. oyu coulsnt stuff yourelf till you puked or anything) Plus between meals and stuff you got to sit and chill outside and eat and talk. We still had to go to school while working in the kitchen, but it was fun.
I cannot BELIEVE you couldnt read! NOw that is some shit. Everyone shoudl be able to read for chrissake! We could read as much as we wanted. We actually had a nice library on the facility property where you could check out books, do homework, ect. No one ever had to read the bible. Im sure since it was all oyu could read, you did. But we could read whatever as long as it wasnt pornography or anything. My therapist actually was writing a book on drugs and had me do some research. We coudnt listen to the radio till phase 3 either, but no restrictions on stations. No TV till phase 4 either.
Its funny you say that about the staff kind of tricking oyu into making oyur own choice so you could get in trouble. Not so much there. I remember my friend Paula. She was so funny and really sarcastic. She liked all this stuff that I thought was so bad. Like Eminem for instance. And I was a "hippi" so to speak before the program so I liked stuff she thought was stupid. But we never got each other in trouble for it. I was listenening to the radio one day, and since I cant stand much other thatn rock, classsic rock, and classical music, we mostly listened to the classic rock station. I remember her giving me so much crap about listening to it saying I was "in my image" but it was for fun, not serious. They expected at the higher phase, girls coudl decide what was "working or non working", so they left it up to us. I was really intent at the time on not doing anything I thought would threaten my ability to stay sober so I just didnt watch or listen to anything that made me uncomfortable.
I knew of one girl who shouldnt have gone. I got a really odd feelig about her though. Like she was off, but just not off enough to go there. She left after 3 months. They ususally realize that they made a mistake and take the kid out. I remember the reason that girl left was because my therapist decided she didnt need to be there and told the parents to take her home and get individual therapy at home. I went through a week long tesing period wiht a different place to see if I needed o tstay there. They did psychological testing, had therapy, ect. It was a trial period and after that They decided and my paretns decided i needed to be there. I knew before they even said it that I was staying. Ive met girls who had been there for 2 years. If you dont go wiht the program you just stay kinda stuck there. My good friend from the program who i still talk to told me her group tried to make her have serious problems. She was there for a crazy reason, which I cant really explain in detail, but it wasnt for drugs, alcohol, rape, any of that. She benifited from the program, but it always annoyed her that they tried to make her worse than she was. Her therapist understood after a whle she was telling the truth and let it go. So they may try, but if your being honest, they can tell. I can honestly say I didnt meet many kids who didnt go there for serious problems. meth addicion was big, alcohol abuse, sex with multiple partners (some at the age of 14!) other drug abuse, problems wiht the law, depression, suicidal tendancies, ect. I can say not many people didnt have a problem to work out. But many didnt want to get better so there you go.
"Even a seed must experience its own version of pain as it pushes through dark soil and cracks open its outer husk to emerge in a burst of green growth into a vast new world of warm sunlight."
-Alexandra Kennedy
Post by: Antigen on April 15, 2005, 10:21:00 PM
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=9&7 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6711&forum=9&7)
More posts by kcadams1980
http://fornits.com/wwf/bb_profile.php?m ... &user=1626 (http://fornits.com/wwf/bb_profile.php?mode=view&user=1626)
I think you might actually know her from your time at CCM. Weren't you guys there about 5 years ago? I'm trying to contact her and see if she wants to weigh in.
Vain are the thousand creeds that move men's hearts, unutterably vain, worthless as wither'd weeds.
--Emily Bronte
Post by: Anonymous on April 15, 2005, 11:31:00 PM
On the brainwashing bullshit (because thats what it is) it is entirely not true. If she felt she was faking her "success" then thats her problem. No one forced her ot go on a talk show and lie abou thow she felt. Certinly after I was home for a bit, I changed somewhat. I listened to stuff I wouldnt have in the program. I hung ot wiht old friends from the past. But in my heart and in my mind I am who I was then. I feel I am stronger as an individual now. Partly because of the progam and partly because I am more mature. But I do feel it needs soem reform and I do feel it is the only program I know of that is even close to making sense and working for kids.
Amanda
"Just as whole forests burn to the ground and eventually grow anew, just as spring follows winter, so it is natures way that through it all, whatever we suffer, we can keep on growing."
-Judy Tatelbaum
Post by: The Liger on April 15, 2005, 11:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-15 20:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"On the brainwashing bullshit (because thats what it is) it is entirely not true. If she felt she was faking her "success" then thats her problem."
I think the point about brainwashing is that you're NOT faking it. You really believe the program rhetoric.
Post by: Anonymous on April 16, 2005, 11:23:00 AM
Post by: Antigen on April 16, 2005, 12:05:00 PM
If they had chosen me for a speaking engagement, I would have done that too.
Everything in moderation, including moderation.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Post by: Anonymous on April 16, 2005, 02:01:00 PM
I think everything in life is a choice. Now the alternative to not making the choice they want you to is lame. But in all reality everything you do is a coice. Her saying going on the talk shows and all that jazz wasnt a choice is not completely accurate.
I know it sounds like CCM is similar to other WWASP programs if oyu look at her testimony. But since Ive been on this forum, I have been in contact wiht at least 5 grads and one non grad who I have posed the questions you have asked me and they all agree that the program is not evil, it wsa not brainwashing and it is not abusive. They have all been out at least 3-5 years, so theres 5 testimonies, including mine, that state the oppisite. Now Im not even trying to imply that CCM is the answer to everyones prayers or something. As Ive said before i can think of things they need reform on, things that would make the program more effective. My Moms ex boyfriend (who was a drug and alcohol counslor and was the person who helped my parents look for a program for me) and I have talked in the past abuot the strenghts and weaknesses of teh program and were even trying to figure out a way to improve on teh program and start one of our own that we felt woudl be more beneficial. I extremely dislike him now and am not considering that anymore, but I think there can be changes to help it be more assisting to kids. One of the things that I think would help woudl be a better way to transition a kid into real life outside the program. I think even as beneficial as the program was to me, it was hard to transition to real life in some ways. So they could deffinetly improve on that.
Amanda
"We may not ever understand why we suffer or be able to control the forces that cause us suffering, but we can have alot to say about what suffering does to us, and what sort of people we become because of it."
-Harold S Kushner
Post by: Antigen on April 16, 2005, 04:51:00 PM
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On 2005-04-16 11:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Did you have to go on staf while in the program?
Only if Sr. staff tapped you for it. You could be a staff trainee until graduation, but you had to be a graduate to move on to Jr. staff. I was only in pretraining when I split for the last time.
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I think everything in life is a choice. Now the alternative to not making the choice they want you to is lame. But in all reality everything you do is a coice. Her saying going on the talk shows and all that jazz wasnt a choice is not completely accurate.
Right, but the PR assholes don't disclose that background information. I'm sure that kcadams1980 wasn't really free to divulge the reasons why she "chose" to go work for free as WWASP's PR girl on that national show. Not any more than Ken Kay ever divulges the circumstances under which the parents write all those letters of gratitude. He won't tell anybody that his seminar facilitators instruct the parents to write them or that graduating the seminars, homework and all, is a precondition to being allowed any contact w/ their own children. Sure, it's a "choice" but they've got the parents convinced that their child's very life depends on their 100% unquestioning support of the Program; "trust the process".
It's deceptive as hell.
Quote
I know it sounds like CCM is similar to other WWASP programs if oyu look at her testimony. But since Ive been on this forum, I have been in contact wiht at least 5 grads and one non grad who I have posed the questions you have asked me and they all agree that the program is not evil, it wsa not brainwashing and it is not abusive. They have all been out at least 3-5 years, so theres 5 testimonies, including mine, that state the oppisite.
5 out of how many? Even if you only count the girls who were there at the same time as you were, that's not a very impressive contingencey.
I find kcadams1980's story especially compelling because I understand it. She's not saying she's afraid of getting sent to TB. If you read all of her posts (there are only 7, I think) she talks about sweating out how her parents might react if she went on the SJR show to recant her former advocacy of the Program.
That's some pretty heavy shit, believe me! I did it a little differently. I just decided that my family wasn't worth quite that much trouble. And I still feel that way, over 20 years later. But it does suck BIG time. My kids barely know their cousins or 5 aunts and uncles (plus spouses). The few times I've tried attending family events, it's been torture. For the longest time, I thought it must be my imagination, that I was just paranoid or overly sensitive. But then my husband came on the scene and he saw it too.
They all are either involved in AA or just suck it up and pretend the Program saved their lives. Those are the terms. Since I can't or won't do that, I don't get to be a full fledged member of the family. I'm fair game for a good fuckin' wrt business dealings and open ridicule otherwise.
Sure, it's a choice. I could eat shit and beg for affection from those assholes or I can have my dignity and just not associate w/ them. But I never had any choice in the matter of my family joining that cult in the first place. I was only about 6 years old when it happened.
How would your parents respond if you told them the Program was full of shit and didn't help you? Not saying that you secretly feel that way. You say you honestly believe in it and I take your word for it. But what if?
Vain are the thousand creeds that move men's hearts, unutterably vain, worthless as wither'd weeds.
--Emily Bronte
Post by: Anonymous on April 16, 2005, 07:30:00 PM
Can you explain the staff thing a little more. After you graduated, they expected you to stay on as a staff memeber? Was that a requirement? Did all the kids have to become staff trainees to graduate?
I wish we could hear from her to clear it up. Will you give more info on Ken Kay? I am sorry. I am not very educated in WWASP or associates. I only know about CCM. What are the letters of gratitude about? Did he make parents write them or something? I know the parents had to complete Discovery to go through PC1 and 2. I know my parents were not 100% about the program. They just knew it was helping me and so they kept me in it.
I graduated with 8 other girls if I remember correctly. We didnt have big graduating classes. I only talk still to those I mentioned. I remember speaking to several others a while ago, but never posed these questions because I wasnt on this forum at the time. I would have to find more to let you know. A few of the girls I dont talk to anymore I knwo werent doign well, but I do recall they dont blame the program for that.
TB? Tanquility Bay?
Perhaps the reason I did well outside the program also had to do with the fact that I turned 18 3 days before i graduated. It helped me feel i was doing well for me, not just out of fear of gettign sent back to the program if I did "bad". But i know that 4 out of those 5 girls I was speaking of earlier were under 18 after graduation.
Well certainly it woudl be hard to recant her mantra after so long. People may feel shes being dishonest and her parents might feel the same way. I feel if she feels that way then she shoudl do what feels right to her. But since I feel it helped me and others, it is hard for me to hear someone bad mouth it so to speak. I am not an advocate of the program, but I feel it can help. I just feel like when someone starts saying, oh its horible, it should have never existed, I start to get a little emotional about it cuz it seems they dont even care about those it did help. Just those it didnt. Was my happiness and my reconcilliation with my self esteem not worth it? I feel I was worth it.
Is your family totally program nuts? Are they resentful of you not accepting the program or something? Do they feel you are unhelthy or unsafe because of not advocating the program 20 years later? I think thats pretty stupid. I can see now more reasons why you hate it. Plus the AA thing. Some people are deffinetly ignorant and self righteous. I cant believe htey woudl treat you like that just because of an opinion. Sounds like your family (no offense) is just being pretty closed minded. Luckily my family is not an advocate of rehabs, AA, ect. They think they help and can see how it helped me, but other than that, they dont care. My Mom and her new husband are spiritual peopel and go on trips to Mexico to see the Myan ruins and temples and go on spiritual quests, believe in alternative methods of drugs (like natural remidies instead of what a drug company would give you) and are very well rouded. They agree that looking for many differetn methods of self improvement is important for spiritual and mental growth and oyu shouldnt limit yourself to just one way. your family is in a cult?
They would ask me why I felt that way. They woudl explore it wiht me and respect my opinion. they might feel a little sad abou tthe wasted money, but i dont know cuz I dont feel that way. Oh trust me buddy. I deffinetly dotn think the program is right in everything. The principals are helpful, therapy was helpful, I liked some of teh seminars, but even then they could use improvement. I think they should ALWAYS be looking at ways to improve the program to better help the girls there. It si folly to think that something will work the same way forever. Things about it are right on, and the things that arent, need adjusting or replacement.
Amanda
"Truth can never be told so as to be understood, and not be believed."
W. Blake
Post by: Antigen on April 16, 2005, 09:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-16 16:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ginger,
Can you explain the staff thing a little more. After you graduated, they expected you to stay on as a staff memeber? Was that a requirement? Did all the kids have to become staff trainees to graduate?
No, all the group staff were graduates. But there were only around a dozen or so staff at a time when group was around 50 kids or so. God only knows how they made their decisions, but Sr. staff would hand pick the people they wanted to go on staff.
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Me too.
I wish we could hear from her to clear it up.
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Will you give more info on Ken Kay? I am sorry. I am not very educated in WWASP or associates. I only know about CCM. What are the letters of gratitude about? Did he make parents write them or something? I know the parents had to complete Discovery to go through PC1 and 2. I know my parents were not 100% about the program. They just knew it was helping me and so they kept me in it.
Oh my! Well, if you don't know anything about Ken Kay, then you really are in the dark wrt advocating for any WWASP program. That's not meant to be snide at all. I never knew, or had any interest in, the behind the scenes side of Straight till just a few years ago when I realized they hadn't really been shut down at all.
Just google Ken Kay WWASP for some info.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ken+kay+wwasp (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ken+kay+wwasp)
As president of WWASP, it falls to Ken Kay to defend the corporation every time there's an investigation, program closing, riot or any other bad publicity. And he's fond pointing to the thousands of letters of gratitude written by parents (who haven't been allowed to see their kids yet). But they're not spontanious letters, they're assignments given to the parents during the seminars.
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I graduated with 8 other girls if I remember correctly. We didnt have big graduating classes. I only talk still to those I mentioned. I remember speaking to several others a while ago, but never posed these questions because I wasnt on this forum at the time. I would have to find more to let you know. A few of the girls I dont talk to anymore I knwo werent doign well, but I do recall they dont blame the program for that.
I never blamed the program when I was having a hard time in life either. I blamed my mother, still do, for trying everything she could think of to "help" me find my "bottom" so I'd come crawling back and complete an inpatient 12 step program. But I didn't let that stop me, either. I just accepted the fact that, like so many other people on this planet, I had a fucked up family that I couldn't count on. So I just never did expect anything from them and so saved myself a lot of dissapointment, I think.
I do, however, think we would have been far better off w/o the Program. I don't think it would ever have occured to my mother to disown her own kids otherwise. Maybe it would have been worse, who knows? But I don't think so.
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TB? Tanquility Bay?
Yup.
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I just feel like when someone starts saying, oh its horible, it should have never existed, I start to get a little emotional about it cuz it seems they dont even care about those it did help. Just those it didnt. Was my happiness and my reconcilliation with my self esteem not worth it? I feel I was worth it.
To someone who lost their parents' affection, support and respect to the program? Sorry, no, your happiness was not worth it to them. And I hope you can understand why people get so damned angry over your advocacy, your insistance that there was no abuse when they were abused and you must have seen it. I get that. It took me awhile to understand, but I really have experienced it myself. When I first got out of Straight, I couldn't say that I had been abused or even seen any abuse at all.
My perception was that everybody who got restrained, humiliated and otherwise treated roughly should have done what I did and just complied. I thought the Program was tough, strict and all that, but not abusive. But then I had litterally put out of my mind and was unable to recall things like when they forced a girl to have an abortion and then made her stand up at open meeting, apologize to staff and her parents for making them do that and then thank them for making her get the "help" she needed.
Things like that came to seem normal and perfectly reasonable. That's the mindfuck. That's brainwashing. When your actual perceptions and beliefs are changed in ways that you never would have intended and you don't even notice it happening.
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Is your family totally program nuts?
YES! And it goes way back. My grandpa was one of the original Oxford steppers. He wasn't even religious or anything, as I recall. It was just like a social club for drunken failed business men. He carved himself out a pretty cozy retirement on his AA buddies business deals.
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Are they resentful of you not accepting the program or something? Do they feel you are unhelthy or unsafe because of not advocating the program 20 years later? I think thats pretty stupid. I can see now more reasons why you hate it. Plus the AA thing.
Resentful? No, I wouldn't put it that way. It works like this. I have a brother who's probably a little schizophrenic. I mean that litterally. Not that he's ever been diagnosed, to the best of my knowledge. But, based on what I know about the disorder, it certainly fits. Whenever he goes into a tailspin (which is every couple of years or so) he gets drunk. Then he goes to AA, blames the beer for all his asshole behavior, then he's in like Flynn w/ the family again. Doesn't matter how much money he cons out of them or how much damage he does, he's good and welcome and has a line in on as much help and support as he needs BECAUSE he blames the beer and does the AA ritual.
Me? Different story. When my husband had kidney problem, they all assumed it was hep c from IV drugs. Never mind that neither one of us has ever done IV drugs or been addicted to anything but tobacco. Even my sister, the nurse, refused to believe me when I read the diagnosis out of his medical record. Because I split the program, the only possible truth in their minds is that I and anyone I associate with are a bunch of hardcore dope fiends. If things go well for me, they think I'm making it up. If anything goes wrong for any reason, well it's obviously all the drugs (that I don't do :roll: )
I know that WWASP encourages exactly the same mindset. The evidence of it is pretty easy to find. Maybe your parents never bought in to the degree that some people do. That's good to hear! But it's calloused and a bit cold hearted for you to assume that it just doesn't happen in WWASP.
Have you read about Corey Murphy?
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... esp1.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/0702desp1.shtml)
Basically, his mother threatened to put him back in WWASP when he didn't meet her (whack!) expectations, and so he shot himself in the head right in front of her. Her take on it?
"Despite the tragic outcome, Laura says that Teen Help was a godsend. Without it, she says, Corey might have died years earlier."
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your family is in a cult?
The Program is a cult. You may not realize that yet, but it really is.
Revelation indeed had no weight with me.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
Post by: Antigen on April 16, 2005, 09:46:00 PM
A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
Post by: Antigen on April 16, 2005, 09:55:00 PM
Quote
"Other criticism of the organization came earlier this year from a company executive shortly after he temporarily left its staff.
"These people are basically a bunch of untrained people who work for this organization," Ken Kay told the Denver Rocky Mountain News in an interview before he rejoined Teen Help as a vice president. "So they don't have credentials of any kind. ...
"We could be leading these kids to long-term problems that we don't have a clue about because we're not going about it in the proper way. ...
"How in the hell can you call yourself a behavior modification program -- and that's one of the ways it's marketed -- when nobody has the expertise to determine: Is this good, is this bad?"
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... rate.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg2-desperate.shtml)
That's the most damning evidence I know of. I can easily forgive misguided zealots who thoroughly believe that what they're doing is right. But this SOB knows the truth and lies like a cheap rug for the $$$$ and glory of it.
Religion is based . . . mainly on fear . . . fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. . . . My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic
Post by: Anonymous on April 16, 2005, 10:44:00 PM
Its like this. I support the things about the program that are helpful, that arent ridiculus or irrelevent. I think the things I learned there were helpful for sure. Now as Ive said the program is not perfect. Perhaps something similar with a different leader who really cared abou the kids, not the dough woudl suffice. I am truly saddened by the fact that the owner Ken Kay sucks so bad. I am a strong believer in the goddness in people, in the bright side of life. I see so much hate and negativity, so much killing and dying in vain and starvation and all that in the world and I just have to believe that there is good in the world. Knowing what Ken is about puts a new perspective to it. Its like he is this greedy man who is trying to make a buck instead of someone who really wants to help the kids. I cant in my heart honsetly say I can support a man like that. And since CCM is a program run by his rules and his intentions, I guess I can say i cant really support that either. I can say, however that your program was deffinetly different than mine. I can say I leraned from it. I can say I am a better person because of who I became when I went to the program. I am not going to say that the program is in its entirety, a bad thing. It has many redeeming qualities that make me feel it has a shred of truth somewhere. Now seeign the dark side of the politics of the program, i can say it is deffinetly corrupt. But ginger, I feel my life was worth it. I feel the program I went to had tools in uit that anyone could have bennifited from. I can say it was not abusive. I can say it was not brainwashing. I am in most disagreement wiht the hypocrisy ive seen form the directors. I am in disagreement wiht the intentions of the programs that are physically and mentally abusive. But I know mine wasnt. I hate that something that has such a potential to be a great hing, is being corrupted by ill intentioned twits.
OYu mean someone who lost affection support and respect for their parents because of the program?
Ginger it wasnt just my happiness. To say that is pretty harsh. Do you know what my life was like before the program? Have you ever felt that emptiness that overcomes your soul and your mind when your depressed? Have oyu ever felt like everyone around you hates you, is judging you, is only your friend so they can use you? Have you ever felt so unhappy that it seems you are close to tears but your body wont let you cry? Have you ever felt you were less of a person than anyone else? That you wouldnt be afraid of someone sticking a gun in your face because it woudl seem like sweet relief to die? Well, if you have imagine feeling that for 4 years. You woudl be so righteous to say my feeling better about myself was not worth it? I really respect you and I like what you have to say. Youve helped me see more clearly about the program in general. But I can say I feel hurt and a little like what is the point of continuing this because oyu basically said my life was not worth anything. I mean you said its not worht it because of the people it hurt, so yeah. Because lets face it you are someone whose lost your parents affection, support and respect due to the program. So you mean you feel I am not worth it. Well, if anything it inspires me to make my life so worth it and to use my every ability to create good in this world, and hey maybe even some day benefit your life if I get into helping the environment or politics. I never said abuse dosnt happen. I see it does. but in mine it didnt. my perceptions have always been changing. My beliefs have always been changing. They always do. name one person who has kept all their beliefs and perceptions the same their entire lives. Wiht new information, comes new perceptions. Now if the perceptions seem right to me, i accept them. But I weigh it out from both angles. If one thing feels right, I choose to accept that, if not, then no. I had information thrown at me in the program. Not all of it felt right on in my heart, and I dotn choose to use it in my life. But alot of it felt righ tto me and therefore I still believe it. I still choose to use it.
And lastly but not least, A cult is a religious thing. The dictionary defines it as
1) a particular system of religious worship.
2) a group devoted to a person, fad, ect.
3) a religion considered to be false or extremeist.
4) attracting a small group of devotees.
I dont feel CCM was similar to any of those definitions.
I can say one thing. CCM has the right idea. It needs reform though. WWASP is a stupid organization. It sucks. YOu are right about that. But I believe the good the program can do is a great thing. I hope we can find a way to have reform and see what works. I knwo outpatient rehab dosnt work well. I know impatient works a little better. Rehab in general works fairly well, but not super well. I have been inspired to find a way to incorperate all we know of rehab, see what dosnt work and change it to make it better. I hope we can all find a way to do this. I hope you can see the good in the program. I hope you can take the good from it an see it is not pure evil. I hope someday you can care about the lives it did save. But who knows. I know your hatred runs deep for it so it wont probably happen. But I know I can say, even after my new realizations about WWASP and all that, it wasnt abusive. I wasnt brainwashed. I am not that gullible as to fall for something like that. I am not saying anyhting I dont believe. I think the program can do good for people. I think the program need reform, however. And I think there is hope for the kids suffering form self esteem, suicidal tendancies, depression, drug abuse, ect. I think we can find a way to make it work better.
Amanda
""To see what is right and not to do it is want of courage."
Confucius
Post by: Anonymous on April 17, 2005, 03:58:00 AM
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Brainwashing has nothing to do with intelligence. It really has nothing to do with how smart (or stupid) a person may be. That's why there are people like you and Perrigaud who have been sucked into this "the program is wonderful, the program saved my life, there is no abuse, all hail the holy program" bullshit. That's one of the many reasons the program should be outlawed and eliminated.
And, yes, it is a cult. Very muchly so.
Post by: BuzzKill on April 17, 2005, 11:24:00 AM
But don't take my word for it - educate yourself on the subject. There are many good books available.
Post by: Anonymous on April 17, 2005, 11:40:00 AM
Many times ,especially when we were sent out to practice "coming out of our box",when in reality we were being prepared to promote their product like good missionarys, I knew in my heart somethig was not right. My thoughts,now brainwashed over shadowed my intuition.
No excuse just facts as I experienced it.It took months after bringing my child home to get back into my normal box and to get away from the program guilt of not graduating. My my my!!
Brain washing wor.ks I've seen over and over. Hear the words that are spoken.
Post by: Antigen on April 17, 2005, 02:00:00 PM
And I don't have to imagine feeling the way you describe. I remember it very well.
And a lot of the things you know are simply not true. That can be said of anybody. There are some very entertaining and informative books and stand up comic acts built on that silly, simple truth of human nature.
But, as you say you're considering a career in the helping field, it's probably worth mentioning one of the more serious treatments of the topic of substance abuse treatment.
Here's a pretty good rundown on the efficacy of substance abuse treatment as it exists in this country today. http://www.peele.net/lib/projmach.html (http://www.peele.net/lib/projmach.html)
Stanton Peele is probably just about the best writer on the topic. And he can be pretty entertaining sometimes too. He once showed up for some kind of hearing or conference dressed as the devil because one of the steppers in attendance had publicly called him the devil for criticizing stepcraft.
I don't think you can safely say that CCM was not abusive. Some kids feel they were abused by CCM. Frankly, anything that comes after "Well, except for the midnight escort, strip search and having my shoes taken..." sounds a whole lot like "I used to be crazy, but I'm much better now."
Now, that said, here's something else you might not know or expect. To this day, there are people who swear Straight saved their lives. My own brother swears The Seed gave him "the tools" to, eventually, perennially, get his act together. Knowing him as well as I do (he was my hero when he was not tormenting me as a kid) I disagree w/ that assessment. But some people actually do become convinced that that obviously abusive program was good and helpful and worthwhile. And every new incarnation that I've ever heard of has been an attempt to salvage the perceived good of the program and eliminate the bad. And every attempt has ended about the same way.
This always tends to evoke a hostile response, but I don't know any better way to describe it. The difference between voluntary participation in therapy of any kind and forced involvement is exactly the same as the difference between making love and getting raped.
One of the pictures in the Rockey Mountain News series shows a bunch of CCM girls in a group hug while one girl in the background is excluded and made to sit in a chair facing the wall. Except for the furniture and a few other visual details, that picture might well have been taken at Straight. Only, if I were the girl in the corner, I would have been laughing up my sleeve. I hated all the mandatory hugging and hand holding and going around telling everybody I loved them all the time. I didn't love them! I didn't hate them, but I really could have done w/o all that unwelcome intimacy.
So one day when I was misbehaving (not sitting up straight, not paying attention to the person talking, just sort of daydreaming) a staffer decided that I was leering at her body. :rofl: Actually, I'm a little wall eyed and probably was tracking her movement as she paced back and forth in front of group because she was the only thing in my field of vision that was moving. I loved it! Once she established the new reality that I was a lesbian, all of a sudden the other girls (including the actual lesbians) gave me a little space and quit hanging all over me. That's the SNAFU principle in action for ya'! All I had to do was follow the rules, not argue, agree w/ Staff's brilliant assessment and I got just exactly what I wanted.
Being a street cop, witnessing the tragedy firsthand, I've become
convinced that drug prohibition -- not drugs themselves -- are driving the HIV epidemic and the systemic crime that has swamped our criminal justice systems.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder
Post by: Antigen on April 17, 2005, 02:06:00 PM
Immortality: A toy which people cry for, And on their knees apply for, Dispute, contend and lie for, And if allowed Would be right proud Eternally to die for.
--Ambrose Bierce
Post by: Anonymous on April 17, 2005, 03:42:00 PM
I never said hte progam was god did I? I never said it was perfect. I never ONCE said it didnt need reform. If oyu would read all my posts, I agree that it needs improvment. However, I feel of the programs I ve heard of, CCM seems to be more laid back, less strict, and not abusive. Did you go to CCM? If not it would be hard for oyu to generalize like that. Yes they are all run bya big greedy guy. But I think the program has its points that are effective and make sense. I think that gets lost in the way they are operating it and its harder to see the good it can do when you look at all the imperfections. if I felt the imperfections of it were so wrong, I would say yes, shut it down! If kids were getting pepper sprayed into their eyes then yes shut it down! If kids were not allowed to go to school or read, then yes shut it down. But many of the things you expereinced in other programs 15-20 years ago was not what happened to me in mine. Yes it needs reform. But at least the main principals and main lessons are good things to learn. I think if someone wiht better intentions were running the program, it would be much more effective. As far as braiunwashing goes, Ive been ouy five years now. That must be some pretty darned effective brainwashing. BEsides, if I was brainwashed, why would I point out the weakness of the program? Why woudl I agree wiht you on many points? No I was not brainwashed. I feel I was helped by the program. Sorry if that bothers you but thats just the truth. I have spent a good deal of my life being honest and looking at things from all sides (which by the way was something I learned to do in the program) so I have no reason to lie to you. If you feel I was brainwashed so i dont know what Im talking about then oh well. No point in arguing about it. I just hope you can see the good in the program. And if you didnt go there, then I cant imagine besides heresay and things youve read that you know much about it. I believe you all when you say you were abused there. I believe the stories Ive heard. I have no reason not to believe you. So why is it so hard to look at it from my perspective?
Amanda
Post by: Anonymous on April 17, 2005, 04:25:00 PM
If you remember it, why woudl you wish that upon me to save people who may not have been abused, they just didnt do well in that environment, they just didnt want to follow rules, they just didnt like it.
Oh I am not gullible. After having 4 brothers, you learn to take it with a grain of salt. I certainly know that I have to look at things from all angles before i make a decision. but whats right for me may not be right for you, but who determines who is ultimatly right then? If were both wrong then no ones right. it is a matter of personal belief and perception. Since no one is the same, I dont think anyone truly is right or wrong about what they believe.
My escort came in the day. Alot of the kids I know their parents took them there themselves. But many were escorted as well. I was only searched once when I got there. Its not like they did it randomly the entire time. If theyt didnt search you, you could concievably get in drugs, cigarettes, whatever. And I got my shoes back. i got to wear them outside. I only wore slippers inside and only for the 1st phase. So not for the entire time or for 3 months. Besides slippers are comfy. I wish i could wear them all the time now. :smile:
Certainly when you speak of the abuse at Straight, I can see what you are talking about. That didnt happen where I was. No one was humiliated or torn down to make them suceptible to brainwashing, which is what it seems straight was about. I dont want to ignore the bad to see the good. i want to help you to see the good and see the bad so we can all work on an idea of how to make it better. No one got anywhere by ignoring weaknesses and only admiring the strengths.
Certainly invouluntary therapy will be less effective because your not doing it for you. But if you go to therapy involuntarily and can see it starting to work for oyu then that to me is a good thing. But the two comparisons are not entirely the same. When I went to therapy befoe the program, I just sat and ignored my therapist. It didnt damage me in any way, just wasted my time. Now rape will damage you. I dotn recall going to therapy now for having to involuntarily go before. But for rape, I would go, becaus ethat mentally and physically damages you.
I can say, i love my friends from the program. Even the ones I dont talk to anymore, I am contantly thinking of them. Where they are, wha ttheir life is like, ect. I didnt love all of them, but even the ones I didnt love, i care about. i donlt like anyone being in pain. i dont like anyone to have to suffer. I wish well for everyone. But i liked the intimacy, because i really cared abou them so it didnt feel fake to me. And since my best friends now are friends I had in the program, I feel that is the truth for me.
Certainly if you didnt want ot be there, it woudlnt work. and since it was abusive, then it certainly wasnt going to work. Well since you feel that the peopel it could be good for are not as important as those it wouldnt help then there is not point asking how oyu would detrmine who could benefit and who couldnt since its invouluntary. I didnt argue wiht my parents abou tgoing. i didnt yell or say I hated them. I agreed I woudl try it. I hugged them and kissed them and said goodbye. SO in a way I guess I didnt consider it invouluntary, because I also thought I shoudl try it.
Truth be told, it has good that can be embraced. The bad needs reform. Lets work on it.
Amanda
"If you want children to keep their feet on the ground, put some responsibility on their shoulders."
Abigail Van Buren
Post by: Anonymous on April 17, 2005, 04:39:00 PM
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I have no reason not to believe you. So why is it so hard to look at it from my perspective?
Amanda"
Because I know where this is coming from. Because I know the program, its origins, the way it's been developed in the US and abroad. Because I know about the seminars, and where they come from. Because I know about the process, about the way humans are broken down and destroyed so that a new, pre-approved version could be inserted.
I'm glad you're doing well, and feeling well about yourself and your experiences. But I can't believe you when you say the program is helpful. Because I know the program, and I know what it entails. And I know why you are convinced you were helped.
This is not an attack on you-- I know you might perceive it as such. This is a (well deserved) attack on the program. The program is a cult by all definitions, and it must be stopped.
Post by: Anonymous on April 17, 2005, 05:33:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on April 17, 2005, 05:43:00 PM
Is it a bad thing to be told you are a good person? Is it a bad thing to be told you have a chioce in life? Is it a bad thing to believe you have the chance to be whatever you want in life? I was never belitled or told I was bad and needed starightning out. I was never told I was a liar. I was not labeled liek that. I labeled myself for sure. i took that on as who i was. But if anything, the program helped me see I wasnt my mistakes. Sure it seems very cliche and very goofy. But for hte most part, I liked what i learned.
I dont take it personal. i know why you feel that way. What program did you go to? That might explain alot. I respect your opinion. I respect your experience. Thats the beauty of being happy wiht who you are. I can still listen to you and your perspective. I can still weight the good and bad. If I seem defensive, Im not. I just feel it is odd for someone to tryo to tell me they know better about me than I do. I certainly wouldnt make that asumption about you!
Amanda
"The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart."
-Helen Keller
Post by: Anonymous on April 17, 2005, 05:53:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on April 17, 2005, 07:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-17 13:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
Certainly if you didnt want ot be there, it woudlnt work. and since it was abusive, then it certainly wasnt going to work. Well since you feel that the peopel it could be good for are not as important as those it wouldnt help then there is not point asking how oyu would detrmine who could benefit and who couldnt since its invouluntary. I didnt argue wiht my parents abou tgoing. i didnt yell or say I hated them. I agreed I woudl try it. I hugged them and kissed them and said goodbye. SO in a way I guess I didnt consider it invouluntary, because I also thought I shoudl try it
Well then if they only took kids like you who were truely there by choice, then they could eliminate the locked doors and the practice of taking away shoes and other control mechanisms. That would be a big improvement, but I don't think the people who run these programs would be willing to go along with that.
For the other kids, the ones taken by escorts or given a harsh ultimatum, it's a completely different story. A hug is nice if it comes from someone you really like. It's something very differnt when it comes from someone you don't particularly like. Sharing stories, talking about personal issues is just the same. If it's voluntary, great. If it's not, it can be extremely humiliating and traumatic.
I never said the other kids are more important to you. I just said that your benefit was not worth their sacrifice. But, the way the program works, their participation is a crucial element. You must have a group and they must be brought to heel and they must all tow the line or suffer consequences. That's how it works.
And it's also important to remember that, though no pepper spray is used at CCM, CCM kids do indeed get that degree of abuse. If they don't tow the line and the parents are willing, they just ship them to Jamaica or Costa Rica or Samoa where they can more easily get away with it. That threat is also a vital element of how the Program "works".
No gods, no masters.
--margaret Sanger
Post by: Anonymous on April 17, 2005, 07:31:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on April 17, 2005, 08:05:00 PM
Amanda, I just read your last post. Couple of things strike me.
One, it seems that there's a definite line between people who view their experience as harmful and those who don't. I and some friends have noticed this when discussing The Seed, Straight and other programs as well. If you were there voluntarily and viewed yourself as being in need of help before hand, then you tend to view the experience as more benign. If you didn't want help and don't want to change, it's a different story.
And that is a vitally important difference to my way of thinking. The single most important reform that I advocate is simply to remove the locks and guards, eliminate "escort services" who resort to shackles or drugs and stirctly, only take clients who have given fully informed consent! No surprises. That would eliminate most of the abuse. But it wouldn't fit the vision of the
return undef() if /coercion/i; (Perl hacks will understand that)
The other thing that strikes me is that you seem to have done well for yourself more by rejecting much of the Program than by accepting it. And more power to ya!
And now the liberals want to stop President Reagan from selling chemical warfare agents and military equipment to Saddam Hussein and why? Because Saddam 'allegedly' gassed a few Kurds in his own country. Mark my words. All of this talk of Saddam Hussein being a 'war criminal' or 'committing crimes against humanity' is the same old thing. LIBERAL HATE SPEECH! and speaking of poison gas... I SAY WE ROUND UP ALL THE DRUG ADDICTS AND GAS THEM TOO!
--Rush Limbaugh, November 3, 1988
Post by: Anonymous on April 17, 2005, 08:54:00 PM
Thank you for your support. Its ok though. I dont mind talking to antigen about this. It is important to view things from all angels. Antigen has been through a traumatic program that did scar her. She is just trying to make sure that no one else is harmed. But truly thanks for listening. She is the only person on this forum that has even been willing to hear me out without judging or expecting me to take on her point of view, so I dont feel attacked by her.
antigen,
I know I needed help, but when I had to really look at myself, I probably woudl have wanted to run away from it. It is hard to really deal with your issues and accept accountability for omy part. I cant say if it wasnt a lockdown facility that I wouddnt have given up. In certain situations, I probably would have stayed. But i probably wouldnt have stayed for the important stuff that helped me simply because it is diffucult to face your fears. I think it was good for me anyway to not have the ability to run away ewhen things got harder. It was good for me to face up to my fears and be responsible for once. I did go because my parents sent me there. But I was also aware that my life was out of control and I needed help. I understood that the program might be good for me so I was wiliing to try it from day one. I didnt resist or try to run away from what was taught. I did learn from the program what ot do and what not to do. A good friend of mine from CCM and I were discussing the weaknesses of the program. I think they need to better prepare kids for what might happen if they do relapse, instead of putting so much emphasis on not relapsing. They need to give more tools to kids for if they falter. We touched on it, but it was not a main point because they felt it set you up for failure. I also think they need a way to help kids become more used to life outside the program before they go home. You get used to beign structured that you dont reall ylearn how to structure yourself. Certainly because we had high phase facility, we got more freedom to do that, but the college program is a more effective way I think. Also they could do a better job at screenign the staff. If the staff are screened and they do not live up the the expectaions of a good staff member then they should not be hired in the first place. If oyu are workign at a rehab to make money and not because you care abou thte people your helping, then your more likely to abuse the people or take advantage of that power. Plus I think the heads of the program need to check their intentions. I also think they need to evaluate what is going well in the program and what is going not so well and adjust that. If they arent willing to admit they are wrong about certain things then they shoudlnt be running a program designed to help someone stay honest and accountable. that ids hypocracy.
Oh the things that I agree with in the program helped me jsut as much as the things I dont agree with. I feel it was all a learning expereince. Learning ot trust myself, love myself, be confident, structure my time so I dotn get bored and do stupid stuff, stand up for who i am, was a great hing for me. I am happy the program helped me learn that. I am not in agreement wiht alot of it, but its not the things I learned Im not in agreement with. its the structure of the program, the intentions of the peopel running it, the way they go abou tit for the most part that Im not in a greement wiht. I think teaching a kid to respect themselves and to liek who they are is not a bad thing to do. But if oyu do it in such a way as they are forced to accept it because of consequences then the message gets lost. It is true that if you dont do certain things the way they tell you to you dont get to move foreward. Not all the time, but wiht home contracts, seminars, rules, ect that is true. In therapy I didnt have that constriction. Now I liked Discovery and Focus. I like dthe processses. iliked the thigns I learned about myself. And the facilitator I had didnt choose people out. If they wanted to leave they left, but she knew not everyone would do it just the way they were supposed to and she wanted everyone to have the opportunity to learn. I liked that. But I feel everyone should be able to do a seminar the way they feel will work for them in order to get the lesson. Does that make sense?
Now change is uncomfortable. Certainly if your change is for someone else then it isnt true change. it is brainwashing. I changed my perceptions because it felt right to me. not because someone told me I should feel that way abou tmyself. When I saw that what they were saying was right on, sure i let that change my perspective because I had new information to weigh against the old informaiton I had. If someone was telling me i was a peice of crap i woudnt have listened. But I guess the program was just tellign me things I knew but just didnt want to accept about myself. I hoep that makes sense. They helped bring it to light, but it was always subconciously there.
I am not sure if CCM does that anymore (sends kids to jamaica) I know they stopped doind that before I graduated. They could have started it up again. If you find info on it, will oyu let me know?
I can see it from your angle Antigen. I admit the truth that it isnt perfect. But I just cant say that I felt abused there. Even the girls that agree it wasnt perfect agree wiht me on that. Kids getting sent to a horrible other program isnt abuse going on in CCM. Thats on Ken Kays shoulders adn the parents. When my mom felt shakey about anything going on in the program, she made it clear to the people that if she didnt agree with it it wasnt goign to happen. i remember a disagreement between her and the family rep and she almost pulled me to another group. I was not happy abou that. I got to know those girls and they knew me. To pull me out woudl have been a huge mistake. But my mom was on top of it. Adn she came to regulary check it out to make sure I wasnt beign abused.
Amanda
"There are two lasting bequests we can give our children. One is roots. The other is wings."
-Hodding Carter Jr.
Post by: Erinys on April 18, 2005, 12:35:00 PM
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On 2005-04-17 17:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"To anon,
It is important to view things from all angels.
Amanda
This is beautiful! A typo but most apropos for these unmoderated fora!.
"entertain angels unaware"
Thank you Antigen, and thank you Amanda.I don't go lookin' for trouble. I just keep a little in a box should someone come by who is.
--Bill Warbis
Post by: Antigen on April 18, 2005, 12:54:00 PM
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On 2005-04-17 17:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
Antigen,
I know I needed help, but when I had to really look at myself, I probably woudl have wanted to run away from it. It is hard to really deal with your issues and accept accountability for my part. I cant say if it wasnt a lockdown facility that I wouddnt have given up. In certain situations, I probably would have stayed. But i probably wouldnt have stayed for the important stuff that helped me simply because it is diffucult to face your fears.
Now that raises a red flag in my mind. Again (cause any serious discussion on this topic so often falls apart into accusations and name calling) I don't mean that I think you're lying or misleading. But that you may have been misled.
That is just exactly what all of the executives at Straight and The Seed used to tell the adoring press. That was the alleged reason why we had to be watched constantly, even on the toilet. That was the alleged reason why kids who may have been disobedient and wreckless prior to intake suddenly started cutting themselves. One joker, back in the early `80's, was actually quoted in the paper as attributing self harming and suicidal ideation to marijuana withdrawal!
Facing your issues and fears in a non-threatening, therapeutic environment is not really so terribly unpleasant as to require physical lock down to prevent escape. But the anon poster is right that there's something about the way the WWASP method goes about causing change that does cause extreme duress. (I have an advantage here because I can put his comment here together w/ other comments that he's made and get a better idea where he's coming from)
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I think it was good for me anyway to not have the ability to run away ewhen things got harder. It was good for me to face up to my fears and be responsible for once.
That's a matter of distorted definitions. You're not really being responsible if you don't have a choice. This is also, word for word, what the Seed/Straight programs taught as responsibility. But it simply isn't accurate. BTW, you do know that both WWASP and The Seed were based on the Synanon method, right? I was astounded back in around `96 or so to hear some of the same lingo coming out of WWASP kids interviewed for the 48 Hourse piece on it as I heard over and over from Seedlings and Straightlings. A lot of the same philosophy and even language has carried over all these years.
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A good friend of mine from CCM and I were discussing the weaknesses of the program. I think they need to better prepare kids for what might happen if they do relapse, instead of putting so much emphasis on not relapsing.
I agree w/ this entirely. One point that you and Ashley and others have sort of touched on is that simple maturation, passing of time, leveling out of raging hormones has a lot to do w/ the radical changes most WWASP kids experiece. Unless you're really traumatized, there's very little chance that you're going to revert to behavior you had at 14 or 15 when you come out a year or two later. More often, you're going to go forward and make new and more interesting mistakes. And the Program (as I understand it) completely lacks any way to address that reality.
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I also think they need a way to help kids become more used to life outside the program before they go home. You get used to beign structured that you dont really learn how to structure yourself. Certainly because we had high phase facility, we got more freedom to do that, but the college program is a more effective way I think. Also they could do a better job at screenign the staff.
I agree w/ this too. But I think there's a conflict w/ the basic premis of how the Program works. It works by removing all choices, taking total control physically and strictly limiting even time to reflect or freely communicate. I don't think the Program proponants and operators have much more clue about how harmful this can be than the shrinks who hand out Zoloft and Prozac like skittles understand the harm they may be doing. But there it is. Many program vets have the same complaint. When you get out, you've lost the habit of thinking and planning for yourself. A lot of people who went on to staff will tell you that part of the reason they did that is that it was frighteing to try to live outside of that strictly controled, structured environment.
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If the staff are screened and they do not live up the the expectaions of a good staff member then they should not be hired in the first place.
There I think you'll find that it's not a series of oversights, but a series of poor choices. WWASP programs seem to condone what we're describing here as bad staff. Do you ever talk to that facilitator who you liked so much? I don't know if she'd be willing to be completely candid w/ you or not. But I think it's pretty likely that, if she was as kind and understanding as you say, she probably took (takes) a lot of heat for it.
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I also think they need to evaluate what is going well in the program and what is going not so well and adjust that. If they arent willing to admit they are wrong about certain things then they shoudlnt be running a program designed to help someone stay honest and accountable. that ids hypocracy.
Could be hypocracy, but I don't think they view it that way. I think the conflict between your view and theirs is that they honestly don't see anything wrong w/ what they're doing or how they're doing it. They think the rest of the world is just off kilter and not enlightened enough to understand how right they are.
This is where the Program fits neatly into the definition of a cult or thought reform. The dictionary definition is not adequate for this discussion. Here is a very good article that describes what that means:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brain ... ing21.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing21.html)
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Oh the things that I agree with in the program helped me jsut as much as the things I dont agree with.
What are those things you agree with? Can you describe, w/o getting too personal, how exactly the Program worked to help you resolve your issues? Just go hypothetical for a moment and describe a problem you never had and how the Program would work to correct it.
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I feel it was all a learning expereince. Learning ot trust myself, love myself, be confident, structure my time so I dotn get bored and do stupid stuff, stand up for who i am, was a great thing for me.
This seems very contradictory to me. Also very familiar. We were told the same things, verbatem. We were confined and had all of our personal choices made for us. And we were pretty well coerced into accepting a very shameful, dim view of ourselves (which could only be redeemed by working the Program). But we were told (and required to state) that, somehow, this was teaching us how to make choices, plan our time and love ourselves.
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I think teaching a kid to respect themselves and to liek who they are is not a bad thing to do. But if oyu do it in such a way as they are forced to accept it because of consequences then the message gets lost. It is true that if you dont do certain things the way they tell you to you dont get to move foreward. Not all the time, but wiht home contracts, seminars, rules, ect that is true. In therapy I didnt have that constriction.
So what if you had had the therapy w/o the rest of the Program (and, btw, I don't think regular therapy is anywhere near as easily available in other WWASP programs as you ladies describe at CCM)
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Now I liked Discovery and Focus. I like dthe processses. iliked the thigns I learned about myself. And the facilitator I had didnt choose people out. If they wanted to leave they left, but she knew not everyone would do it just the way they were supposed to and she wanted everyone to have the opportunity to learn. I liked that. But I feel everyone should be able to do a seminar the way they feel will work for them in order to get the lesson. Does that make sense?
Yes, it makes sense to me. But I don't think it makes any sense at all to the people who run these programs. They state outright, over and over again, that you have to force a bad kid (excuse me, troubled teen) to do right.
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I am not sure if CCM does that anymore (sends kids to jamaica) I know they stopped doind that before I graduated. They could have started it up again. If you find info on it, will oyu let me know?
It's hard to imagine that they've seen the light and changed their ways. More likely, since TB is getting such bad press lately, they're just using a different facility. And CCM or WWASP wouldn't be the agent of that transfer, it would be done by contract between the parent and the other program. But I'd bet good money they're still doing the same thing. If I come accross something concrete, I'll probably post it. Or someone else will.
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I can see it from your angle Antigen. I admit the truth that it isnt perfect. But I just cant say that I felt abused there. Even the girls that agree it wasnt perfect agree wiht me on that. Kids getting sent to a horrible other program isnt abuse going on in CCM.
Well, that's about like the difference between murder and hiring a hit man.
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Thats on Ken Kays shoulders adn the parents. When my mom felt shakey about anything going on in the program, she made it clear to the people that if she didnt agree with it it wasnt goign to happen. i remember a disagreement between her and the family rep and she almost pulled me to another group. I was not happy abou that. I got to know those girls and they knew me. To pull me out woudl have been a huge mistake. But my mom was on top of it. Adn she came to regulary check it out to make sure I wasnt beign abused.
Amanda
"There are two lasting bequests we can give our children. One is roots. The other is wings."
-Hodding Carter Jr."
Did you know about all that while you were there? One of the really insidious aspects of the way they did it at Straight was to never let on that any decision had anything to do w/ the parents. A kid might stay on first phase for 6 months or a year and, every day, be told that it was their fault for not working the Program. Generally, they'd get frustrated and misbehave in some way, thereby supporting the illusion. But a lot of them found out later (if they ever were able to have a civil discussion w/ their parents, that is) that they didn't move up because the parent refused to comply in some way. Then there were the very wealthy or politically connected families who's kids got the easy ride.
If All it takes is an infinite number of monkeys with type writers, then how come there's no Shakespeare coming out of AOL?
-- Anonymous
Post by: Anonymous on April 18, 2005, 05:44:00 PM
This is part of a book of my husbands called "Cannabis Cultivation" by Mel Thomas.
"A change in heart rate and blood pressure can present serious problems for soem patients, but cannabis has no proven long term helath risks associated wiht its use and has no serious potential for dependancy. However, withdrawl symptoms have been observed. In one study, subjects were given very high doses of oral THC: 180 to 210 mg per day for 10 to 20 days, (equivilent to smoking 9 to 10. 2% THC cigarettes per day). Once cannabis use stopped, the subjects were irritable and suffered mild insomnia, runny nose, sweating and decreased appetite."
I know that his excuse for self mutilation was probably not true. No where is there evidence that withdrawl from pot will make you suicidal or anything. But when my husband and I stopped smoking pot when I got pregnant, he suffered HUGE mood swings, he was depressed, ect. I think it was more his psychological addiction as he uses pot to ignore his feelings about his past. But I have never seen him like that except when he dosnt smoke. He has been smoking alsmost every day since he was 12 so that probably has alot to do wiht it too. Im sure more chronic users expereince stronger effects when they stop.
Well I feel mixed about the responsible wihtout a chice thing. On the one hand, it is goo dto learn how to be responsible. Like when your a kid and oyur parents give you responsiblilty. that isnt really a choice. I know I never chose to take out the trash or whatever. But I still learned the basic lesson. It is good to take responsibility for your self and for your actions. Regardelss wethere or not you were told to do something, being responsible is doing whatever task your put to to the best of your ability. Like with work responsibility. Even if someone else dosnt do their job very well, I will be responsible and do my job great anyway. Even if my boss told me I didnt hav eot do somathing, I woudl do it to show inititative and to show I am reliable. In the past, i woudl have just did the minimum to get by and done nothing unless I was told to. I learned in the program that to be a responsible person sometimes you have to do what is right regardless of if it is mandatory or not. I was put in situations where I had the freedom to make choices for myself. Like I said, I dont feel it was alot of freedom but Im sure its more than any other program offers.
Synannon method?
I agree. If your life isnt out of control to the point where you feel you need help, the program is goign to be inneffective.
I feel the freedom I got in the higher phases helped alot. but it wasnt enough. the college program let the girls go basically live in the real world. No uniforms, no bed time, no what oyu cna and cannot watch or listen to, ect. They went grocery shopping, went to college, lived at a duplex. the only thing similar to the program was they slept there and had group Mon-Fri. But group was more laid back and the rules were too. Ask Ashley. She did it and said it helped her alot.
I dotn talk to Jan. Come to think of it i wouldnt really know how to get ahold of her.
True they probably think it is fine and dandy to do one thing and tell others not to do that. they probably dont even care about the recovery that happens in the program. They just want ot make money.
I agree that seminars can help. I had good experiences wiht mine and thought even if I wasnt in the program I probably woudl go to just learn something new. In the past I woudl blame alot of other peopel for my unhappiness. I was also very low on the self esteem and would let peopel treat me however they wanted to. I woudl die before I stood up for myself. I felt like I was really stupid because I was bad at math and felt I woudl just rather not try something than fail at it. Those are a few anyway. Now after the program I know I am responsible for my attitude. I know it is ok to feel down and angry and all that, but I learned it is my choice if I want to continue feeling that way or change my attitude and no one can do that but me. That fact has been reiterated after the program too in my life. But the program is where i first realized it. I know now that when I dont try somethign just because I might fail, I am already setting myself up to fail. I know I am good at what I want ot do. i have confidence in myself now and know that my life has direction. There is no reason to believe i am not good enough or smart enough to try it. A BIG thing now is I dont let peopel treat me badly. If I feel I am being disrespectd or talked down to, i wont hang out wiht that person. i refuse now to place myself around peopel who are negative and false. Life is too short. I feel I am worth something now and feel that anyone not willing to see that and give to a relationship wiht me is out of the car. I do have friends who talk to me abou tgheir problems and get negative, but I try to help them come up wiht a solution. Thats anothe rporblem I had and still kind of do, is I caretake peopel alot. I try to make them better or happier and sacrafice my own happines for them. i have been workign on that particularly wih tmy husband and my friends. But I learned how not to caretake in the program. It is so important for me to look out for myself first. If I feel I am not in a good place, it owuld be wrong of me and wrong for me to try to help anyone else. Does that make sense?
Oh I never had a dim view of myself. i realized I made mistakes, but Im human. I realized I needed to change certain things if I wanted to be happier, but I didnt feel it was impossible because I was bad or anything. I feel the last phase of my program when I got the most freedom was the biggest learning expereince for me. The very beggining was too.
We had group therapy every day and individual therapy 1-2 times a week, depending. Is that not what other places do? I know perrigaud said at CASA she had no therapy at all. I tried therapy wihtout the rest of the program. It didnt work for me. Fo rsome reason therapy in the program and after the program was the most effective it ever had been.
My therapist told me of the family rep and my moms dissagreement. it was about her not being able to talk to me on the phone. Finally she got to after arguing wiht my therapist and rep for two weeks. I told my therapist I didnt what ot switch groups. To do what he could to convince her I needed to stay with my group> so I talked to her and told her I was fine, that I needed to stay wiht my group. No one told me to do that. I liked my friends in my gorup and felt I was making progress. I told her I was happy and ok and I would talk to her soon. After that she came to see me. i wasnt able to see her, but she could tell jsut by the fact I was walking wihtout staring at the floor, I was actually (gasp) smiling, I was no longer pale and skinny cuz of the drugs and the eating disorder. I was happy adn she kenw it. We have that connection where she can just tell about me. I knew about all my parents issues wiht the program.
Amanda
"An opressive government is more to be feared then a tiger."
- Confucius
Post by: Perrigaud on April 19, 2005, 06:00:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2005, 09:44:00 AM
THE FACILITATOR?S UNEXPECTED BEHAVIOR:
At one point, he used a large white writing pad placed on an easel in the front of the room, to write comments and illustrate points. After informing us that the object of the seminar was to find our Magical Inner Child, he drew a small circle and surrounded it with three other circles. The inner circle represented the Magical Child, the next circle layer represented ?Fixed Beliefs?, the next layer represented ?Fixed Emotions? and the outer layer represented ?Fixed Behavior ? Image? He used words like ?protection? and ?ego? as well. He stated that the purpose of the Discovery Seminar was to penetrate all these outer circles to reach the Magical Child, which was hidden in all of us. I was rather perplexed about the relevance of this to me. I had done an extensive amount of individual and group therapy, read numerous self-help books and done lots of inner growth work. He seemed to be assuming that I did not have this knowledge. Considering that Teen Help had never asked for my personal background and growth experience before asking me to attend this seminar, I realized Don couldn?t possibly know very much about me and what work I had already done. I was sure I could find something of value in what he was saying and so continued to pay attention.
He then began to talk about concepts of right and wrong. To illustrate his point, he singled me out, walking halfway across the room, to the outer isle seat where I was sitting. He stood so close to me, I was very uncomfortable. I had feelings of intimidation. I didn?t want to act on those feelings, so I stood up and faced him squarely and said, ?You are in my space.? I had put my hand on my hip, when I said that. Instead of stepping out of my space, he put his hand on his hip and mocked me with his expression and gesture and leaned closer to me. He did not step back. I am about 5?4? tall and he was about 6?5? tall and broad across the chest. I had a tremendous urge to take my hand and gently push him away from me until he was at an appropriate distance, but I decided to wait and see why he was doing this. I was fully aware that my husband would stand up in my defense if I gave him an indication I wanted help.
I said, ?You are also much bigger than I am?. I had a full sense of the power of Don?s personality and also of his physical strength when he was standing this close to me. Suddenly, he changed from a mocking behavior to the aggressive stance he had described earlier as gangster posture. He pointed his finger at my face, about ½? inch away from right between my eyes. He said forcefully, ?I could rob you.? He paused, looking me straight in the eyes with menace; ?I could take away your woman hood.? He paused for a response and when I gave none, he said, ?I could kill you.?
I looked back at him and felt the full force of his words. I knew that this facilitator knew nothing about my history. Others had confronted me before with this full intent. I looked him in the eyes and knew he was indeed capable of doing these things. I stood my ground, but I was shaken to the core. He had changed his behavior so quickly, I had had no warning and I was frozen in a state of shock. There were 90 other people in the room watching and no one said a word. He shook his finger at me and leaned closer, raising his voice to say, ?and could I say I was right?? I was convinced that he could indeed believe that he was right in doing these things. I never wavered in my eye contact, feeling that this was indeed a dangerous man that I could not afford to show fear to. I answered softly, but with firmness, ?Yes, you could?. He stared at me for a few more minutes in silence. I stared back.
Then he broke the tension by laughing. He dropped his aggressive stance and leaned closer, saying, ?You are welcome in my space anytime,? in a slightly suggestive manner. I was shocked at his uninvited familiarity and said nothing, neither did I laugh or move back. Actually, there was nowhere for me to move back to without stepping on my husband who was still sitting in the next seat.
Don turned around and walked over to the front of the room again. He continued speaking, as if there was nothing abnormal about his behavior. He went on to prove a point that even murderers can kill people and say they are right, believing it entirely. He said, ?even a serial killer has a support group.? I thought of Hitler and his support group and realized that Don had a valid point. Don then made the bold and unexpected conclusion that this proved that there was no right or wrong. From there he went on to tell us how words could be powerful shapers of reality and that we would be better to use the words ?working? and ?not working?.[/b]
http://www.pianofinders.com/es/breakingthesecrecy2.htm (http://www.pianofinders.com/es/breakingthesecrecy2.htm)
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2005, 09:45:00 AM
Ever heard of "double-speak?"
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2005, 10:00:00 AM
Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs
in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
http://www.orwelltoday.com/doublethink.shtml (http://www.orwelltoday.com/doublethink.shtml)
Post by: Antigen on April 19, 2005, 01:51:00 PM
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On 2005-04-18 14:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well, intersting post. They watched you go to the bathroom? Did many kids cut themselves at your facility? I cant recall any self mutilation. I remember one of my roomates locked herself up in the bathroom and drank withc hazel and shampoo. But not many self mutilations. Now as much of an advocate I am of pot, it is possible to have marijuana withdrawls.
Yes, they watched us every moment on first phase. By "they" I mean kids on the higher phases of the program.
A lot? Define a lot. I remember some people carving signs and words into their arms w/ fingernails or any little sharp thing they could find. And the stock response was to accuse them in harsh and loud terms of avoiding themselves and of the "crime" of seeking attention. Even the girl who was there for having once had a beer was supposedly anguishing over her deep shame and withdrawal from the "druggie lifestyle". Yes, it's possible to have mild withdrawals from MJ. But not suicide and suicidal ideation and self harm. Those things happened frequently in Straight because of the "treatment", not because of any problems the kids had coming in.
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But when my husband and I stopped smoking pot when I got pregnant, he suffered HUGE mood swings, he was depressed, ect. I think it was more his psychological addiction as he uses pot to ignore his feelings about his past. But I have never seen him like that except when he dosnt smoke. He has been smoking alsmost every day since he was 12 so that probably has alot to do wiht it too. Im sure more chronic users expereince stronger effects when they stop.
Or he could be successfully treating some PTSD. Or maybe he just enjoys it. It's not necessarily a dysfunction.
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Even if my boss told me I didnt hav eot do somathing, I woudl do it to show inititative and to show I am reliable.
Whereas I would do it, not to show anybody anything, but because I wanted it done; because it's my job and what's worth doing is worth doing well. By the same token, I would not waste my time for long doing busy work just to make some little tin god feel powerful. I'd find another employer pretty quick; one who sees dollar signs in an employee who takes authentic pride and a sense of proprietorship in their work and sees the sense and self interest in paying for good service.
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In the past...
Jeeze! Is it rap time again? Sorry, I am making fun of you and I know that's mean. But this is just SO like a Straight rap. To paraphrase "In my past, I was horrible in these specific ways ______. Then I came to the Program and learned that I was horrible and chose to be good in these ways ______. And now things are much better, but I'm always looking over my shoulder in case those bad old ways of my past try to get me again!"
Look, the things you describe, the self doubt and all, really are a normal part of growing up. Granted, it's much harder if you don't have adults in your life in whom you can confide and on whom you can depend for unconditional support. But that's not an indication of dysfunction in a kid. That's an indication of slack or illequipped parents.
Before I went into the Program, I remedied that problem by seeking out older teenagers and adults who would give me the kind of support I needed. I didn't always strike gold on the first try. But I was doing OK for myself.
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Synannon method?
Yes. Look into the history of the Synanon Church. It's not hard to find, as the whole thing spiraled out of control, resulting in major national headlines following the attempted murder of a lawyer who represented a member who was trying to get out of that cult.
CEDU is said to stand for Chuck E. Dederich University. Provo Canyon was founded by former Synanon/CEDU people. And the WWASP programs started out from Provo offshoots. Or so the story goes. One aspect of the Synanon method that I can tell you to a dead certainty has carried through to modern day CCM is the basic rap structure and the basic structure of what they called "The Game" and you call a seminar.
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I agree. If your life isnt out of control to the point where you feel you need help, the program is goign to be inneffective.
And if you're at a crisis point in your life and someone comes along to convince you that you're hopeless and can't possibly find your bearing w/o drastic treatment, you'll believe it. But it's not necessarily true.
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I feel the freedom I got in the higher phases helped alot. but it wasnt enough. the college program let the girls go basically live in the real world. No uniforms, no bed time, no what oyu cna and cannot watch or listen to, ect. They went grocery shopping, went to college, lived at a duplex. the only thing similar to the program was they slept there and had group Mon-Fri. But group was more laid back and the rules were too. Ask Ashley. She did it and said it helped her alot.
What I take from this is the less Program influence the better. The program is stone soup made w/ toxic minerals.
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True they probably think it is fine and dandy to do one thing and tell others not to do that. they probably dont even care about the recovery that happens in the program. They just want ot make money.
No, I'm convinced that they truely believe. But they're kidding themselves. It's very like the way a wife beater will force/cajole his wife to constantly tell him how much she loves and needs him, how great he is and how worthless she would be without him. He believes it. He needs to believe it. She believes it to some extent. But it's still not true.
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I agree that seminars can help.
Agree w/ whom? I never said that. I don't think the seminars are all that healthy.
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I had good experiences wiht mine and thought even if I wasnt in the program I probably woudl go to just learn something new.
Ok, I'll grant you that the seminars are effective in making participants believe something. But they're intentionally structured to NOT arrive at those conclusions by anything like measured reason. The conclusions are foregone and success is measured by the participants' acceptance of those forgone conclusions. (i.e. me->past->bad->Program->good... as long as I keep rejecting everything I thought I knew before I received the special enlightenment of the Program)
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I do have friends who talk to me abou tgheir problems and get negative, but I try to help them come up wiht a solution. Thats anothe rporblem I had and still kind of do, is I caretake peopel alot. I try to make them better or happier and sacrafice my own happines for them. i have been workign on that particularly wih tmy husband and my friends. But I learned how not to caretake in the program. It is so important for me to look out for myself first. If I feel I am not in a good place, it owuld be wrong of me and wrong for me to try to help anyone else. Does that make sense?
No! That does not make any more sense to me now than it did 20 years ago when I heard it over and over again in Group. Taking care of the people you love is not a dysfunction or a fault! It's how we build a family, a social net. It's a good thing, an attribute, generousness of spirit! And, except for in the Program's warped culture, is usually well rewarded in normal human society!
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We had group therapy every day and individual therapy 1-2 times a week, depending. Is that not what other places do? I know perrigaud said at CASA she had no therapy at all.
Perri, you were at CASA and never wittnessed any abuse??? Did you sleep through it?
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My therapist told me of the family rep and my moms dissagreement. it was about her not being able to talk to me on the phone. Finally she got to after arguing wiht my therapist and rep for two weeks.
Yeah, that's a common complaint. Here's some discussion about a problem from early last year
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... m=9&Sort=D (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9227&forum=9&Sort=D)
And there's a mother posting lately as FightingIrish who's looking for help and advice to get her kid out of CCM for the very same reason:
http://fornits.com/wwf/bb_profile.php?m ... &user=2410 (http://fornits.com/wwf/bb_profile.php?mode=view&user=2410)
Everybody's lost just waiting to be found. Everyone's a thought just waiting to fade.
-- Billy Corgan of The Smashing Pumpkins
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2005, 03:40:00 PM
When I was getting a degree in psychology from Georgia Tech, I took a class (intro. to psych. testing) from a professor emeritus who was the former head of the psychology department at Georgia Tech.
He had also done a great deal of work for the military and industry.
He was an eminent scholar and a brilliant man who never made emphatic statements that he couldn't back up, who virtually always qualified any statement he made with any even minimally necessary scientific caveat.
His class was taught simultaneously as a graduate and undergraduate level class. The only difference was the graduate students had to do one more report than we undergrads.
He stated, unequivocally, as an aside in class that the "Sensitivity Training" of the 1970's had done a great deal of psychological harm to a great many people. When we asked how, he said they had stirred up a lot of emotions and feelings and memories that they then had no clue how to resolve, and that that was very damaging.
To the extent that the WWASPS seminars are "Sensitivity Training" all over again, and it is crystal clear that they are, I trust this eminent expert's highly educated opinion that they are psychologically harmful and *for NOBODY*.
To the extent that people who have been through them advocate them to others even after having been told that all the experts in treating psychological casualties and in how the human mind works say that these practices are *harmful*, I infer that those people have been inducted into a cult and are still in that cult mindset.
I infer this because no decent person would recommend that other people participate in something that could do them serious, long-term if not permanent harm.
While I have sympathy for people who have been captured by a cult and had their minds imprisoned within its destructive framework, I cannot allow them to attempt to recruit others into the cult without my speaking up and denouncing that cult for the extremely harmful, deceptive, unethical, and abusive thing that it is.
This includes anyone who has ever been through the WWASPS seminars and still recommends them to others as a positive thing.
WWASP cult members/victims are, in my highly educated and well-informed opinion, ultimately as inherently dangerous as the TM'ers, the Moonies, the Scientologists, the Elizabeth Clair Prophet sycophants, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Branch Davidians, the former Heaven's Gate cult, the Hare Krishnas, or the former People's Temple cult.
I would *strongly* encourage anyone even remotely considering enrolling their child in a WWASPS facility to purchase and read this book:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/books/r ... gbonds.htm (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/books/releasingbonds.htm)
(_Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves_ by Steve Hassan)
If you can dredge up the money for WWASPS tuition, then for the sake of your whole family's mental health, in case you're wrong, you can dredge up $25 and a few hours to read a book.
If you still choose to use WWASPS (or you're not the custodial parent and the other parent so chooses), make a safety pact before your child goes:
1) Because seminars are required to go home, participation is coerced even if they say it's not. Because of deliberate peer pressure by the "trainers" that your child will be very vulnerable to, any secrecy oaths are coerced and therefore not binding.
2) Just like you always told your child to tell you if an adult touched their private parts, even if the adult made them promise not to and they had to promise to get away safely, if your child makes any secrecy promise, anything the facility wants them to keep a secret is someone touching the private parts of their mind and is the kind of secret you *tell*---in this case, that they tell you, as their parent, that they've been told to keep a secret from them and everything they've been told to keep secret.
But the most important thing is not to go.
Intelligence is not protection from cult indoctrination. Often intelligent people are *very susceptible* to being indoctrinated into cults, and may stay in the cult all their lives until they die of old age.
If WWASPS-required seminars are based on EST, Sensitivity Training, and/or Lifespring, as they *strongly* appear to be from the link--earlier in the thread--to the husband and wife account of their seminar experience, then WWASPS is a very dangerous cult.
Do not take the risk that you or your child will be sucked into it and never escape.
Timoclea
Post by: Antigen on April 19, 2005, 03:58:00 PM
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On 2005-04-19 12:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
2) Just like you always told your child to tell you if an adult touched their private parts, even if the adult made them promise not to and they had to promise to get away safely, if your child makes any secrecy promise, anything the facility wants them to keep a secret is someone touching the private parts of their mind and is the kind of secret you *tell*---in this case, that they tell you, as their parent, that they've been told to keep a secret from them and everything they've been told to keep secret.
After I got out of Straight and my dad had defected physically, he was still in the process of defecting mentally. He once asked me in an accusatory, but also sincerely interested tone, why, if all these horrible things were going on I had not told him at the time. I reminded him that he would have reported me to staff if I had. And he would have, too, and he knew it.
Remember that the parents are required to attend seminars before having any regular communication w/ their kids. There's a reason for that.
The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness.
-- John Muir
Post by: Antigen on April 19, 2005, 08:42:00 PM
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=D#94917 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7179&forum=11&Sort=D#94917)
When a man you like switches from what he said a year ago, or four years ago, he is a broad-minded person who has courage enough to change his mind with changing conditions. When a man you don't like does it, he is a liar who has broken his promise.
-- FRANKLIN P.ADAMS (1861-1960).
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2005, 09:49:00 PM
Post by: Timoclea on April 19, 2005, 10:21:00 PM
Timoclea
What a distressing contrast there is between the radiant intelligence of the child and the feeble mentality of the average adult.
-- Sigmund Freud
Post by: Antigen on April 19, 2005, 11:34:00 PM
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On 2005-04-19 18:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Man, ginger... your parents were really f'd up. Do you have a relationship with them today? "
I got along great w/ my dad after that one conversation. Haven't spoken w/ my mom in years. The point is, though, that, just like Straight, WWASP encourages parents to inform staff on their kids. And just like good, "strong" Straight parents, WWASP parents often do inform on their kids.
I don't believe in Jesus.
--John Lennon, British songwriter and member of "The Beatles"
Post by: Timoclea on April 20, 2005, 04:08:00 PM
She asked her mom if she could call her best friend and wish her Merry Christmas. Her mom and stepdad said no. It was against the Swift River rules.
She asked her dad when she was with him. Her dad said yes and she called and got her friend's answering machine and told the answering machine Merry Christmas.
Her dad then turned informer on her to Swift River and said "it wouldn't have been right" to *not* inform on her.
Swift River, according to her friend (who is, by the way, legally adult, another girl, a college student, and as clean cut as they come), put her in solitary for *three days* for this and made her write a fifty page paper, by hand, explaining why calling a clean-cut friend on Christmas was "wrong."
So Swift River also obviously encourages parents to inform on their kids to the program.
And the parents are obviously so brainwashed that, just like the communist youth under Stalin, they don't see anything morally wrong about turning informer on family members for minor things that will garner draconian punishments.
That's just plain evil.
But most people, we know from the Milgram experiments, will do horribly evil things if an authority figure tells them they "must."
Which is a sad commentary on the lack of humanity of humanity.
How could someone inform on his own family for anything short of rape, murder, child molestation or grand larceny?
How could anyone be so morally bankrupt and gullible to buy the lie that turning informer on your family is "for their own good"?
But program parents are among the more gullible percentage of humanity by definition. And self-selected for the ability to rationalize that the end justifies the means.
Sick.
Timoclea
Faith is the commitment of one's consciousness to beliefs for which one has no sensory evidence or rational proof. A mystic is a man who treats his feelings as tools of cognition. Faith is the equation of feeling with knowledge.
--Ayn Rand, Russian-born author
Post by: Nihilanthic on April 20, 2005, 05:20:00 PM
And BTW - Satanists rarely if ever actually have a spiritual faith in "satan" or ANY deity, its just a symbol of individualism and personal power/freedom/responsibility/actualization. Satanists would probably be on *your* side about how bullshit these seminars are. They'd just take it a step farther and call all religions cults and say God is just the biggest rap-leader ofa ll.
Not being a satanist, I don't have much more to say about them. :grin:
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
Post by: Anonymous on April 20, 2005, 05:24:00 PM
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She asked her dad when she was with him. Her dad said yes and she called and got her friend's answering machine and told the answering machine Merry Christmas.
Her dad then turned informer on her to Swift River
Giving her permission and then ratting on her? That's more than brainwashed; that's totally fucked up.
Post by: Anonymous on April 20, 2005, 10:16:00 PM
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On 2005-04-20 14:20:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"If intellect isnt protection from brainwashing, then is education? I certainly would give wide berth to anything that feels like a seminar by now, or anything masquerading as something else that is one.
And BTW - Satanists rarely if ever actually have a spiritual faith in "satan" or ANY deity, its just a symbol of individualism and personal power/freedom/responsibility/actualization. Satanists would probably be on *your* side about how bullshit these seminars are. They'd just take it a step farther and call all religions cults and say God is just the biggest rap-leader ofa ll.
Not being a satanist, I don't have much more to say about them. :grin:The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
The best insullation against brainwashing is prior preparation for the particular cult. That is, to be told or find out what the cult is going to tell you, and then to be told or find out what the counter-arguments are against that position---in ADVANCE. It doesn't work if it's not in advance.
The other thing you have to know is how brainwashing works.
Someone brainwashing you is going to try to control the millieu--they're going to try to exert control over your environment, and then they're going to try to isolate you from other communication and control as much of your communication as possible (hence the no talking rules at seminars and in early phases of teen POW camps), and then they're going to try to get you to agree to something open ended--open ended in some tricky non-obvious way that seems reasonable and use that initial agreement as a foot in the door (if they get you to agree to something small, and then something else small, pretty soon you'll agree to anything), they're going to deprive you of sleep and either deprive you of sensory input *or* bombard you with sensory input to disorient you (or do other things to disorient you), and they're going to try to get you to do at least one small thing (and then little by little larger things) that violate your code of ethics.
If they get you to violate your code of ethics or morals in little, seemingly insignificant ways, then the next increased thing seems like no big deal, and so on. They incrementally push your limits.
They take advantage of all the Dom tricks Doms use on Subs in BDSM, but with none of the negotiation, no scruples about coercion, no ethics, and no respect for hard limits.
They in fact want to push past so many of your hard limits and get you to compromise them with the little by little technique that you get totally confused about what your moral or ethical code is anymore---at which point they can implant theirs and freeze it in place with implanted phobias.
That's where the "knowing what they're going to tell you and knowing the counter arguments" comes in, by the way. What a substantial part of that is is a mental defense against the particular irrational implanted phobias the particular cult uses to freeze their implanted cult personality and its implanted worldview on top of your own, while the original you is locked somewhere deep down underneath, screaming.
The early deprogrammers tended to have bad results because they would succeed at reviving the original personality, but the cult personality would still be there and just be suppressed---the cult-induced dissociation in the person's personality was still there, and the person had been "deprogrammed" but not healed. Which meant they were still in a world of hurt, and weren't really able to think for themselves again---anything that felt like part of the cult personality would be closed off as "bad."
The later generation of treatment for people exiting from cults is similar to the treatment for multiple personality disorder. You bring the suppressed original personality to the surface and through the therapeutic process help the person evaluate and process what aspects of the cult personality they like and want to keep and which ones that they can do without, thank you very much. The end result is a whole person with a re-integrated personality who can think for themselves again and choose for themselves what they want to do and be.
Didn't you say you're a Dom?
Unless you're a switch, I think you'd not only notice the mind games, I think they'd just piss you off.
Timoclea
(Oh, btw--I'm Wiccan. Since we perpetually have to deal with ignorant people who confuse us with the other guys, we have to know their general doctrine to be able to point out why we aren't them and they aren't us.)
Post by: Anonymous on April 20, 2005, 10:21:00 PM
When all they're really doing is having an endorphin high from a fairly common alternative sexual lifestyle practice.
But then just as people mistake sex for love, it's not all that uncommon for people to mistake an endorphin high for a stunning revelation.
Timoclea
Post by: Anonymous on April 21, 2005, 08:38:00 PM
Its taken me a long time to get back to you, but here it is. It is true that people develop patterens in life. they learn to deal wiht things in a certain way. In order to stop that learning something different is a good thing to do. Not to replace the old behavior, but to work wiht all knowledge to come up with who you are. It woudl be stupid of me not to use everything Ive learned to make a decision on what I believe. If I just listened to one side of the story and made beliefs on that, that woudl be really ignorant.
I saw several as in 2-3 girls who would self mutilate, but it was always the same few.
When you say successfuly treating some Post Traumatci Stress disorder, do you mean by smoking pot he is dealing wiht that stress? Now, I am all for people having the right to smoke. It is not a very dangerous drug and is deffinetly less dangerous than Cigarettes or alcohol. But running away from his problems by smoking isnt helping him. All it does is makes him more and more depressed about it. That is his ONLY way of dealing wiht his past. and if it wasnt illegal, hey Id be all for it. But i lost him for a few months to jail for driving under the influence of pot and I dont want that to happen again.
It is important to show a boss you are interested in keeping your job and even moving up in position. Hard work does pay off. If you arent self employed then you have to work up the ladder so to speak. Now if I wasnt getting paid alot for workign extra hard, then screw that. But if you are getting paid generously and stuff then you have a good reason to work hard.
I say in the past because I am not the same person I was 1, 2 even 6 years ago. Anytiem I refer to myself as in the past I mean anytime before a year ago.
My parents just got here so i have to go.
amanda
Post by: Anonymous on April 21, 2005, 11:16:00 PM
Anyway, like I was saying, when I say in the past, Im refering to anytime before like 1 year ago. I cinsider my time at CCM and even after CCm my past, because I still have the same stuff to deal with as I did before CCM. I also never said I considered my actions or myself horrible. As Ive said before, everything Ive done before durign and after the program has shaped who I am and Im not regretful or ashamed of it. I am greatful for my past because if I didnt go through anything, I would not be the person I am today, and I consider myself ot be a cool person. My past is who I am. I can never turn my back on it. I am not looking back to make sure i dont screw up again or anything. I always knew before the program that the things I was doing were unhealthy for me. The only thing the program taught me about it was to deal wiht it in a different way. Sometimes those ways worked and sometimes not.
See the problem with my personality is I dont try to find peopel who wil help me. I try to find peopel who will accept my behavior and attitude and not try to encourage me to change. When i am wanting to be in a certain state, I dont seek help. That was basically me before i wne tot he program. I also think that goign to the program was not the key thing for me. It helped me to see that i needed to search out different means of help, but I searched for that after the program too.
So the story goes? Is there a site you can refer me to or a book i can read about it?
Sometimes it is true. Is that so hard to believe considering everyone is different?
the less program structure the better, yes.
I was agreeign wiht others who say the seminars can help. In an unstructered program environment do you consider seminars unhealthy?
Taking care of someone is one thing. Accepting an unhealthy person and letting them treat you badly over and over again is another. When I was refering to "caretaking" people, I was refering to when I spend more time focusing on their problems and their issues and not enough time focusing on myself. I get lost in another persons unhappiness and dont focus enough on my own. I hope you can see how that is not good for me or anyone. Like I have a friend who continuously complains abou thte same thing over an over again when I talk to them. I like helping them as much as I can, but it can be very draining. Too much of that is unhealthy. Building a family soly on one persons happiness is unhealthy period.
Amanda
"A man may learn wisdom, even from a foe."
-Aristophanes
Post by: Anonymous on April 21, 2005, 11:23:00 PM
Do you believe EVERYTHING about the seminars is bad? Do you think someone who advocates for trying a seminar outside the program thinks the entire thing is solid and foolproof? I think it has its good points and bad points. Do oyu believe that if the seminars were improved upon in the areas that are unsuccessful that that woudl still not work and they woudl still be inefective?
Amanda
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2005, 04:17:00 AM
If not, do some research. The program is a mix between North Korean brainwashing techniques, the Synanon method, EST, and Lifespring, of course. Synanon, EST, and Lifespring are cults, like The Program.
There's nothing about the program that is positive or helpful. The only people who believe there is are people who have accepted WWASP's POV, people who are already brainwashed enough to believe that what they've seen and experiences was not only deserved, but needed. And that's wrong.
PS: about the smoking pot to deal with PTSD issue-- marijuana is now accepted in the medical community as an extremely helpful method of treating and dealing with PTSD symptoms. It's not "running away" from the problem-- unless you also consider antidepressants and anti-anxiety medications as "running away". There are several clinical trials taking place right now about the use of marijuana in PTSD treatment (in the US, Europe, and Israel), and the results look good so far.
Post by: BuzzKill on April 22, 2005, 01:03:00 PM
This does make sense.
I can remember once telling a H.S. teacher that sometimes a little apathy was a good thing.
As for withdrawal - if there were such a thing as withdrawal from marijuana I would surely have learned all about it back in the late 70's.
Such was not the case. I had no problems quitting at all. And bear in mind, I lived in a more or less constant fog of hemp smoke for most of the last part of that decade.
This is not to say I think smoking pot is a healthy thing to do. In fact I would encourage anyone partaking to stop. But I do believe the effect can be helpful for certain problems and I do agree that medical use is well worth exploring. I also think it is probably far more benign than many of the legal pills popped for the same sorts of problems.
I do support the de-criminalization of marijuana; and I am opposed to mandatory drug testing in most situations.
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2005, 01:05:00 PM
Post by: 001010 on April 22, 2005, 01:19:00 PM
We will make mistakes. Learning from them doesn't make us heros. It only gives us a passing grade on the evolutionary scale.
Antigen
Post by: Antigen on April 22, 2005, 01:37:00 PM
And yes, I do consider the seminars to be unhealthy, even if they're done to sell Herbalife or Amway or for some other reason. It's a scam. They do not contain any method or content to help people change their lives or thinking for the better. They don't even know going in what any of the participants problems are. The way they work is just exactly like an old tyme Bible revival only a little more sophisticated. They get the crowd worked up emotionally, caught in a double bind and then offer blessed salvation though servitude. It's not really salvation at all.
To regard Christ as God, and to pray to him, are to my mind the greatest possible sacrilege.
--Leo Tolstoy, Russian revolutionary
Post by: Antigen on April 22, 2005, 01:46:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-22 10:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Maybe you have not been in a situation where you fear for your childs life so much that you would do anything to save it :flame: "
No, you're mistaken. Damned near everyone who regularly posts here has been in that situation and/or taken the consequences of our parents having been taken advantage of while in that state of mind.
I understand completely why my parents were so terrified and why they put me in Straight. The little cosmic joke in all this is that, in my case, the Program was the cause of my outrageous behavior. Because I was sure they were going to put me in pretty soon and because I was terrified of being brainwashed like my older brothers and sister and all their friends, and because I had been effectively isolated from any sort of normal social ties, I took the desperate step of packing a backpack and hitchhiking out into the wild yonder.
Of course, looking back from a more mature perspective, I know there were many other options available to me. But I didn't know that then. I had been raised to believe that my options were limited to two; being a good little honorary Seedling or being a "druggie" as described over and over in outrageously exagerated terms at Open Meeting every Friday night for years.
When my daughter went crazy (and she really did go off the wall for awhile) I understood in more than an intellectual way why a parent would fall for the scam. The only reason my daughter didn't wind up in Broward County's boot camp system is because, based on my family's experience, I knew that would be a big mistake.
Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2005, 03:49:00 PM
I will search for some info on what you posted.
Now, to say there is absolutly Nada about the program that is useful or helpful is a bit extreme. Meeting the peopel I did in the program was a great thing for me. I am still best friends with those I am still in contact with, so there is one positive thing. I also have soem very fond memories of outings I had, groups I had, ect. there is some good. So saying there is absolutly no way to benefit from it or to have a good experience wiht it is wrong. Ginger may be right about makign the program a voluntary thing. Then if people cna benefit from it on their own, it would work better. But the things I say are not derived form program lingo or anything like that. i believe the things I believe because of my entire life expereince and because of after the program too. i dont feel as if I am in some cult mentality, as I do not feel the program is the end all answer to everyones problems. Life is certainly unfair. Sometimes punishments are not needed. The program is in great need of reform. But for the things that are helpful, perhaps they need more emphasis.
Trust me, I know my husband better than you. He DEFINETLY escapes his past. The problem wiht pot is
A) it is expensive. If he was using that as an antidepressant then there is never enough for him to use in a medical way. We cant spend 60 dollars a week on pot.
B) its effects last only so long and when hes n0ot high, then the depression and guilt come right back. it is only a temporary solution.
C) Its illegal. If he was caught, we could get our child taken away. Not to metnion he would go to jail. Now that all springs from prohibition and if it was legal it migh tbe a different deal.
The main issue is he dosnt ever actually deal with it on pot. He forgets about it for a time, but he never talks about it or anything. Occasionaly he will, but in a offhand sort of way. He has never been diagnosed with PTSD. Now the funny thing is he refuses to get on antidepressants because he dosnt want to be dependant on them, but pot is ok. It dosnt make alot of sense to me.
Personally I just think he likes to get high. Plus he makes pot sound as if it is the greatest thing int he entire world ever. It is alright, but it isnt something to talk about all fucking day long and it isnt something to lose your family or your freedom over.
If someday he can legally use THC as a method of treating PSTD if he is diagnosed wiht PSTD then good. I hope that happens. Personally i hope pot is legalized so this wouldnt even be as big a problem. But till then, it is risky and not very healthy to have around a baby.
Amanda
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2005, 03:54:00 PM
The withdrawl that has been identified is usually unnoticable and stuff. Jsut like wiht any substance you use on a daily basis when you stop it, you feel soem form of withdrawl. It may not be as extreme as say quitting smoking or drinking or anyhting like that. But it happens. MAybe it just wasnt noticible or extreme in oyur case. Unless you were smoking chronic every day, you probably wouldnt feel withdrawl.
Amanda
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2005, 04:12:00 PM
Its true. A one size fits all seminar will not be effective for everyone. But one based soly on one issue might. It depends on the person and the situation. When you come to realizations about yourself, that comes form new information, form processign that information. and peopel are always changing their perspectives or at least should be. Just as I have changed mine after being on this forum. i dont thin k you all are hearing me. I think the progrma needs reform. I think the program isnt perfect.
One more thing. I hear alot of people on the forum blaming parents for everything. Im sure none of oyu are perfect parents. None of you. OYu can try your best and do your best, but even a parents best isnt perfect. and even a "perfect' parent may have a kid that grows up to be out of control. to blame everythign on a perent is silly. Im sure most the parents who send their kids to a program just want to help their kid be happy. There is not soem underlying wickedness that drives them to try to make their kids conform inot little mutant robots who spout out progam lingo. So stop trying to mkae all program paretns out to be bad guys. Soem are granted, but for the ones that are trying their best, leave them alone. I know what it is to love a child so much you want ot do anyhting you can to help them be happy. I dont care if my kid dresses in all black and listens to heavy metal or rap or whatever. As long as they are happy and not doing anything to harm their body then I am all for them finding out who they are and what they like. But it is not true that all kids grow out of being teenagers. My husband has a friend who is 28 now and still does drugs, drinks like a fish, and sells himself on the internet to men for extra money. Ive talked to his brother and he feels he will always be that way because he dosnt want help. He dosnt want to stop what hes doing. My good friend Ben is EXACTLY the same as he was in high school, only a little taller and skinnier. Actually all my old friends form high school are the same as they were back then. My husbands mom is still an alcoholic and in abusive relationships. All her friends are unhalthy gross people who are so horrible rude and unbelieveably out of control that we have banned them from our home. these are 40-50 year olds for heavnes sake! So no, not everyone does grow out of it. And sometimes Im sure parents dont want to wait and see if their kid will grow out of it or not.
Amanda
P.S. Antigen, did you forget your morning coffee? You seem a little agitated and not so willing to discuss anymore. Have i offended you? OYu seem back to me as the enemy and as the ignorant brainwashed villan. I appreciate your input and would hope you appreciate mine as well. i feel I learned alot forom you. I hope you can consider my post and not get so caught up in the fact that I feel the program was a good tool for me. Ive told oyu again and again it is in tremendous need of reform. Have any ideas as to how to make it more effective? Is there a therapy method oyu have heard of that is more effective?
Post by: Antigen on April 22, 2005, 04:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-22 12:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
Now the funny thing is he refuses to get on antidepressants because he dosnt want to be dependant on them, but pot is ok. It dosnt make alot of sense to me.
One major benefit that cannabis has over SSRIs and similar drugs is the total lack of any long term side effects.
Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proven innocent.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2005, 05:56:00 PM
Quote
One major benefit that cannabis has over SSRIs and similar drugs is the total lack of any long term side effects.
But how can you be sure it is pure? Unless, of course you grow it yourself.
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2005, 07:30:00 PM
Post by: Deborah on April 22, 2005, 08:01:00 PM
So isn't abuse. And I feel certain that some kids would've been better off if their parent had kicked them out. Fending for one's self expidites maturity. Being taken care of, told what to do every moment creates dependency. Never do for a person what they can do themselves, you create an invalid.
Post by: BuzzKill on April 22, 2005, 08:23:00 PM
It was a daily thing for several years; and some days, all day.
Keep in mind, back then, it was dirt cheep, and while not officially legal - arrest for anything under an ounce was un heard of. Typically, the cops just stole your stash. The only time I ever saw anyone arrested was when they smarted off - ya know - back talked and said something stupid like, You can't do that, I know my rights!
Back then, they might talk rude to you, but if you kept your mouth shut & remained polite when required to say something; they just took the pot and beer and left you alone.
And back then, there was no such thing as mandatory drug testing. If you could fill out an application you could get a job; and if you came to work and did your job, and weren't a problem, you could keep the job. It didn't matter what you smoked after work.
The point being - Back then, Marijuana was a very commonly used drug; and the ill effect on people's lives practically non-existent.
Once they made it hard to get in from MX, it got expensive; So much so that far more dangerous drugs are cheaper; and then they passed the stricter laws, making even paraphnaila illegal; and the schools decided to have Zero tolerance; and drug testing became mandatory for most any job - and Now, using Marijuana is very likely to cause problems of a significant nature in the life of anyone who uses it.
But it does not cause any kind of withdrawal. A person might miss it - I called it nostalgia - but there are no physical symptoms at all to stopping even an every day habit.
Getting off coffee - that's a different story!
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2005, 08:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-22 16:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If they hadn't cared and loved you, they wouldn't have been willing to spend the 30 to 60K a year, they could have just kicked you out of their house."
This is completely ridiculous. Are you suggesting parents without the wherewithal to send their children to programs, don't love them as much? How do you think people who can't afford to send their kid (most of america) deal with 'unruly' teens?
I'd venture over 95% the kids at these programs are white, from middle class to upper class families. If the parents didn't fear the social and legal ramifications from kicking their child out, I'm sure many would simply let them leave. However, this is not acceptable in the society where these kids come from, not to mention the guilt of raising a child who ultimately rejected you. Instead they are sent out of sight, out of mind, to be fixed.
The money issue is something that comes up A LOT with parents. "I spent all my savings, because I love you so much..." The truth is, the parents are terrified, uninformed, gullable and have money to spend. A dangerous combination if you ask me. The flip side of the coin to this argument is the parents are willing to give up everything they worked their entire life for, to keep the child away from home. This is the perspective of the child, pre-seminars of course, they have to train you to be thankful for your parents. They train your mind to think of how terrible you were, and all the terrible experiences you put your parents through. They train you to be thankful for your parents for spending all their money, and being put under so much stress while you were there. This is all BS, and the kid will eventually realize this.
Parents think they can buy there way out of the mess they created themselves. You can't reprogram a teen to be a model citizen during their adolescence, it simply is not possible- unless using extreme and damaging psychological techniques. These programs simply put many kids with normal teenage problems on a road headed to disaster in adulthood. Learning to cope in the real world is much more beneficial. Not escaping to a fantasy land where parents think teens can be re-trained into the teen they always wanted.
Most teens do take responsibility for their actions. We are taught as youngsters the rule of law and consequence. We know when we break the law, we might be punished. What sometimes comes as a surprise to teens, is that you have no civil rights until you reach maturity as far as your parents are concerned- and they can send you to private prison without due process. Kids aren't stupid. They know this is an injustice. They have no advocate, it goes against everything you have ever been taught about fairness and society. Many kids at the facilities will commit terrible crimes, including assault and worse, to simply get put into the legal system. At least you have rights then, or so the argument goes.
Parents, save the money for college. They'll need it then much more, and that will actually help them out.
Parents, why don't YOU take responsibility and help your teen with their problems instead of sending them off to a mind-control factory in hopes they might come home a different person. With 30-60 thousand a year as a budget, I'm sure you won't have any problems coming up with any ideas to improve your situation. Use the money wisely, instead of sending it to a bunch of liars and scam artists. IT IS ALL A SCAM, they want your money and don't provide help or treatment.
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2005, 09:31:00 PM
Most parents don't want their kids in prison. Or dead. Or drug addicts. Believe it or not, most parents do love their children. Maybe your parents didn't love you.
Many of these white middle class to upper middle class family parents borrow money to afford help for their children. We are not a bunch of rich people (yes we have more than many) just throwing money out the window to get their children out of their hair. How ridiculous. You have no idea. My life ended for a year after I sent my son to a program. My husband and I simply co-existed in order to get by. It was the choice we made, and I still stand by it.
I am simply saying that parents want what is best for their children, and most would gladly take a bullet for them.
I did not create a mess that I could not get myself out of. My child had a problem and was suffering in the public and private school system. We hired an EC to find a setting where she could thrive as well as get an education.
Unless you have walked in my shoes, keep your mouth shut.
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2005, 09:36:00 PM
Quote
I am simply saying that parents want what is best for their children, and most would gladly take a bullet for them.
Unless you have walked in my shoes, keep your mouth shut. "
Maybe one day, because you sent your kid to a fucked up program, you will get the chance. It's happened before.
Until you've spent a year or more in one of these fucked up teen torture centers, FUCK OFF MOM.
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2005, 09:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-22 18:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Unless you have walked in my shoes, keep your mouth shut."
Same to you.
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2005, 09:40:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-22 18:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Most parents don't want their kids in prison. Or dead. Or drug addicts. Believe it or not, most parents do love their children."
You should realize putting a kid in a WWASP program, will most likely increase the chances of these things happening eventually.
Quote
On 2005-04-22 18:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Maybe your parents didn't love you."
Classy. Typical program parent. :roll:
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2005, 09:40:00 PM
Post by: 69 on April 22, 2005, 09:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-22 18:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You have no idea. My life ended for a year after I sent my son to a program. My husband and I simply co-existed in order to get by."
::boohoo::
:roll:
Post by: BuzzKill on April 22, 2005, 10:00:00 PM
I've walked in your shoes, and I did the very thing you did in response. I do understand. So I hope you'll not tell me to shut up when I go on to explain - what we did was a mistake.
Speaking for myself, I came to realize it was the program manipulating me with masterful skill. They hooked me and reeled me right in, and then very nearly manipulated the common sense clean out of my head.
They mislead me in very significant ways; and failed to explain many very important factors about the Program.
This is just plain wrong.
I would even call it evil.
I feel they took great advantage of your love for your child; just as they took advantage of me and mine. I feel certain there is a great deal they didn't tell you about the program prior to enrollment; and as you learn about it, if you do, you assume it Must be Lies - or you try desperately to justify it - b/c otherwise, you have to admit you've been suckered by the very people you came to depend upon for help and even salvation. And, worse yet, you sent your child to a place were day to day life is a torment of emotional stress and physical discomfort and even pain.
Facing these facts can be unbearable - So you are all the more easily manipulated by virtue of your willful ignorance.
Wake up.
It past time - Wake up.
Lay off the snooz alarm.
Post by: Nihilanthic on April 22, 2005, 10:11:00 PM
These program parents think taht it was the necessary thing to do if you loved your kid, to spend a fortune and throw them in a program.
They dont realize it was unnecessary almost all the time and potenitally very abusive. They dont realize ANYTHING except taht they HAD to use the program, or they didnt love the kid and the kid would die, bla bla bla.
I'm sick of trying to get through to them, so I wont even try. You all can if you want. Just realize its like talking to a wall to expect them to even understand the possiblity that it was abusive or not necessary.
A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trust either of them
P.J. O'Rourke
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2005, 10:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-22 19:11:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"I'm sick of trying to get through to them, so I wont even try. You all can if you want. Just realize its like talking to a wall to expect them to even understand the possiblity that it was abusive or not necessary."
Good point.
Post by: Nihilanthic on April 22, 2005, 10:21:00 PM
Brainwashed parents who are deluded into thinking giving up money and a child to people and not talking to them and making their kid feel helpless is loving and the 'hard thing to do' is a sad, sad, thing.
Truth in matters of religion is simply the opinion that has survived.
--Oscar Wilde
Post by: Antigen on April 22, 2005, 11:28:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-22 19:21:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
Brainwashed parents who are deluded into thinking giving up money and a child to people and not talking to them and making their kid feel helpless is loving and the 'hard thing to do' is a sad, sad, thing.
It IS a hard thing to do. And for someone who was raised on penance and punishment, it makes a certain sort of warped sense. Remember that, since Victorian days, the authorities have been telling us to turn a cold shoulder to our infants cries to teach them independence. And they tell us to make happy and carefree when they cry hysterically the first day we drop them at daycare.
"Good" parents suck up the anguish and do what the experts say. It fits. It's not right, it's a huge error. But it fits w/ the core belief in our society that suffering and cash can cover a multitude of evil.
When we contemplate the whole globe as one great dewdrop, striped and dotted with continents and islands, flying through space with all other stars all singing and shining together as one, the whole universe appears as an infinite storm of beauty.
-- John Muir
Post by: Antigen on April 22, 2005, 11:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-22 13:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
i dont thin k you all are hearing me. I think the progrma needs reform. I think the program isnt perfect.
Before I read further, let me just say 1 thing. I do hear you! I'm not disregarding what you say. Ashleigh started out from the premis that the Program needs legitimate screening. I agree w/ that. And you've mentioned how the college program was far better than the highschool program, by virtue of spending less time in the Program and more time in the real world. I also agree w/ that.
So then I asked you what about the program should be preserved. There was some back and forth over the lock-down nature of it that went unresolved. I think that would come down to the screening and re-inventing the program to actually deal w/ serious psyche issues.
Now we're talking about how and why the seminars, group raps, isolation and take downs work. As far as I know, that's the rest of the program, isn't it? And some people (myself included) doubt the value of the seminars.
There is not a "fragment" in all nature, for every relative fragment of one thing is a full harmonious unit in itself.
-- John Muir
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
Post by: Antigen on April 22, 2005, 11:52:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-22 13:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
P.S. Antigen, did you forget your morning coffee? You seem a little agitated and not so willing to discuss anymore. Have i offended you? OYu seem back to me as the enemy and as the ignorant brainwashed villan. I appreciate your input and would hope you appreciate mine as well. i feel I learned alot forom you. I hope you can consider my post and not get so caught up in the fact that I feel the program was a good tool for me. Ive told oyu again and again it is in tremendous need of reform. Have any ideas as to how to make it more effective? Is there a therapy method oyu have heard of that is more effective?
No, I'm not being critical of you. Just busy today and not much time to read and post. I'm critical of the Program, which is not you. If having been influenced by sophisticated thought reform techniques makes you a villan, than I must be evil too.
I don't think you're exactly drowning in the kool-aid at this point. If you were, you'd view me as pure evil and have stomped off in a huff by now. But I do think that, if we get to a reasonable end to this conversation, you'll conclude as I have; that the only things worth saving about the Program are those elements of it that are not part of the core Program. Stone soup, made w/ manganese.
I could be wrong, but I think I'm not.
The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled.
-- Plutarch
Post by: Antigen on April 22, 2005, 11:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-22 14:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteOne major benefit that cannabis has over SSRIs and similar drugs is the total lack of any long term side effects.
But how can you be sure it is pure? Unless, of course you grow it yourself. "
Well, unless you move to the west coast and find a very reliable medicinal provider, you can't. The penalties and bust-risk for growing even a couple of plants far outweigh those of getting it from some kid at a highly inflated price. Reversing that disparity would go a LONG way toward taking the crime, corruption and violence out of the MJ market.
Were the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. Thus in France the emetic was once forbidden as a medicine, and the potato as an article of food. Government is just as infallible,[sic] too, when it fixes systems in physics. Galileo was sent to the Inquisition for affirming that the earth was a sphere.... It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia
Post by: Antigen on April 22, 2005, 11:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-22 16:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"come on you people!!!!!!!! Talking about chronic use of pot? Hello? It's illegal and habit forming. And you wonder why parents send their kids to programs?!!! You need to accept some of the responsibility yourselves, and stop placing blame on your parents. If they hadn't cared and loved you, they wouldn't have been willing to spend the 30 to 60K a year, they could have just kicked you out of their house."
Based solely on that statement, I'm guessing you love law-n-order more than your own blood. Spend 30 - 60k to make your kids conform to senseless laws? Even my WWII leatherneck dad eventually saw the nonsense of that!
If triangles had a God, He'd have three sides.
--Old Yiddish proverb
Post by: Antigen on April 23, 2005, 12:11:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-04-22 17:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
This is completely ridiculous. Are you suggesting parents without the wherewithal to send their children to programs, don't love them as much? How do you think people who can't afford to send their kid (most of america) deal with 'unruly' teens?
No kidding! I see kids around here who's parents would be perfect Program prospects, except that they're living in section 8 housing. Because the parents are over controling, paranoid and vindictive, the kids get off to a rough start. But the families, for better or worse, stay together. Mostly, it seems to be for the better.
Instead of giving money to fund colleges to promote learning, why don't they pass a Constitutional Amendment prohibiting anybody from learning anything? If it works as good as the Prohibition one did, why, in five years we would have the smartest race of people on earth.
--Will Rogers
Post by: Antigen on April 23, 2005, 12:16:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-04-22 18:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
Unless you have walked in my shoes, keep your mouth shut.
Again, we have. Don't be so damned sanctimonious!
Vain are the thousand creeds that move men's hearts, unutterably vain, worthless as wither'd weeds.
--Emily Bronte
Post by: Antigen on April 23, 2005, 12:20:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-04-22 18:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"that is so righteous of you. I see that you did well for yourself. Cursing a mom who loves her child. I pity you."
You suffering and martyrdome do not translate into benefit to your child. Sorry, I know you were only following the beliefs you were taught. Ah, the lies my teacher told me. It's just not true. You could have paid twice as much, fostered other Program children in your home, shuttled them back and forth every day (weekends included) and spent your "spare" time doing fundraisers and it still wouldn't have translated into helping your child. Just ask any Straight parent who isn't spewing program dogma like the Gospel truth to this day. :roll:
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.
-- Anonymous
Post by: Anonymous on April 23, 2005, 07:25:00 AM
Produced by Parents for Residential Reform, a project of the Federation for Children with Special Needs
Copyright© 2004
Post by: Perrigaud on April 23, 2005, 09:49:00 AM
Post by: Antigen on April 23, 2005, 01:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-23 04:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
we always push the licensed and approved programs
Which programs would those be? I thought you said you're not an edcon?
I believe that human beings arrive on this Earth wanting to know absolutely everything, and the best thing we can do as parents is to get out of the way -- just be there to let them know what opportunities are there
-- Dorothy Werner, media liaison for the National Homeschool Association
Post by: Antigen on April 23, 2005, 01:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-23 06:49:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"Sleep through the abuse? Me...what abuse? At CASA? Didn't see it happen. Heard of it but yeah I slept through it. "
So what is the point of saying, over and over again, that you didn't see any abuse? Based on others' reports about Casa, I can't imagine anybody spending any time there and not veiwing it as an abusive environment. Unless, of course, you just blame the victims.
If God has spoken, why is the world not convinced?
--Percy Bysshe Shelley, English poet
Post by: Anonymous on April 23, 2005, 02:07:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on April 23, 2005, 02:11:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on April 23, 2005, 02:41:00 PM
My response to your parents letter is valid, I think. It's just incredibly niave to think that people who view thought reform techniques as valid therapy will be influence by a letter like that. "Aw, shucks! this mother really likes her kid. I guess we'd better jettison all of our beliefs about how to straighten out a wayward teen and do it her way." Pleeeeaaaaze!
And that is consistent w/ some statements I found in your document titled "Things to Remember when Bringing your Child Home for Holidays, School Vacations, and Weekend Visits from Residential or Group Home Care"
http://www.pfrr.org/FS-BringChildHome.htm (http://www.pfrr.org/FS-BringChildHome.htm)
Quote
Ask about the policy on children/adolescents from the program contacting each other during the period of time they are home as some programs do not recommend or allow this for very good safety reasons. Some kids, especially adolescents, may have a history of running away or other issues. In addition, many kids can be easily manipulated or impulsive, so negative influences need to be curbed. This is also reason why it might be harmful for your child/adolescent to contact friends that he/she previously acted out with. If programs do not allow peer contact they are always willing to explain why.
Sure, they're always willing to spend a little time to convince you to never, ever trust your child even to TALK to anyone not approved by the Program. I'm sure there are cases where this just makes sense, but those would be rare cases. In most cases, they just don't want the kids to have any reference or social proof about the Program that they can't control. It's not really that the kid is too dumb or mentally ill to communicate responsibly. It's that they're too smart to not see through the bullshit, unless someone's controling the dialogue.
Quote
Some crucial questions to ask: does the program come up with a written plan for your child/adolescent for when he/she is home? (When appropriate your young person should have input in this document or plan.) This can be in the form of a plan or a contract and should be worked on together with staff, parents, and child/adolescent. Some of the following suggestions could be included such as: check-in's, medication (if there is a problem with compliance with medication), return time, curfews at home, and so on. Limits are crucial as well as consistency and collaboration with the program as the young person has to return to the program.
Make sure the little bastard knows good and well that they're going back if they step out of line!
Quote
Please remember when programs or facilities have a check in system it is not to invade privacy. Instead, it is to keep the lines of communication open, and let the young person and yourself know that they are there for you.
Sometimes it is intended to invade privacy. Sometimes it's all about getting the kid to internalize group dependency. Why, if you let the kid just go home and not report back at intervals like a battered wife, they might get the dangerous notion that they could do ok for themselves w/o the Program. Can't have that! BTW, the Seed/Straight lingo for this was "dime therapy".
Andrea, all of this advice you're giving sounds very much like what Straight and The Seed told our parents. Of course, this could apply to perfectly legitimate needed therapy. But it can also be spun to legitimize unneccessary and abusive treatment.
With soap, baptism is a good thing.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
Post by: RTP2003 on April 23, 2005, 02:57:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-22 20:55:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-04-22 14:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteOne major benefit that cannabis has over SSRIs and similar drugs is the total lack of any long term side effects.
But how can you be sure it is pure? Unless, of course you grow it yourself. "
Well, unless you move to the west coast and find a very reliable medicinal provider, you can't. The penalties and bust-risk for growing even a couple of plants far outweigh those of getting it from some kid at a highly inflated price. Reversing that disparity would go a LONG way toward taking the crime, corruption and violence out of the MJ market.
"
Look, kiddies, Mary Jane is going to be "pure". Regardless of what they told you in health class in Jr. High, no one is going to lace your weed with anything unless they're trying to sell you laced weed, and they're NOT going to blindside you with it. PCP and other adulterants are sold as PCP, not as weed. Drug dealers are in it for the money, and it doesn't make business sense to put an expensive adulterant on weed and try to pass it off as marijuana. It just doesn't happen. Back in the 70s--early 80s, there was some Mexican weed that had been sprayed with paraquat, but that was your friends in the DEA that were trying to eradicate it. THAT shit was toxic to smoke, but you could look at your weed under a blacklight and see the discoloration the paraquat created. Avoid that shit entirely by buying domestically grown weed, which is generally of higher quality anyway.
As far as Mary Warner being addictive--bullshit. Habit forming, maybe, but so are lots of things, like excercise, TV viewing, church attendance, and wearingt comfortable shoes.
Post by: Anonymous on April 23, 2005, 03:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-23 10:55:00, Antigen wrote:
"
Andrea, if you had sent that letter to all the staff at a Synanon based program, they would all have had a good laugh. "Look at this! This crazy bitch thinks her kid's getting a steak and cheese sandwich! :rofl: " and then they would have used the details to belittle and demoralize your daughter. All the while, the family rep or whatever would be telling you whatever you wanted to hear."
Yep, exactly what I thought after reading the letter. The letter would just end up making things worse in the end, at least if you ended up at a facility like the shit hole I went to (WWASP).
This is not a personal attack on the author of the letter, just the nature of the beast.
Post by: Nihilanthic on April 23, 2005, 03:27:00 PM
And fast food, or SUVs, or chocolate, or what EVER... ::boohoo::
Whats the fucking difference between an addiction and something you just like to do, hmm?
"Replace end user" (The Top Support Call Closer 10 Years Running)
--Bastard Administrator
Post by: RTP2003 on April 23, 2005, 03:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-23 12:27:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
Whats the fucking difference between an addiction and something you just like to do, hmm
I would consider an addiction to be a reliance on a substance to maintain bodily homeostasis, i.e., drugs such as heroin that create a physical debilitation if withdrawn from the user's body chemistry. Anything other than physical illness is just a "jones" (intense craving or desire) and a human being is evolved enough for it's wants not to hurt it.
Post by: BuzzKill on April 23, 2005, 04:02:00 PM
heres a little diitty that explains addiction:
So now little man -
you've grown tired of grass -
LSD, goofballs, cocaine and hash -
And someone pretending to be a true friend -
said I'll introduce you to Miss Heroin.
Well honey, before you start fooling with me -
Just let me inform you of how it will be -
for I will seduce you and make you my slave -
I've sent men much stronger than you to their graves.
You think you could never become a disgrace -
and end up addicted to poppy seed waste.
So, you'll start inhaling me one afternoon -
You'll take me into your arms very soon.
And when I have entered deep down in your veins -
the craving will nearly drive you insane.
You'll need lots of money -
as you have been told -
For darling, I'm much more expensive than gold.
You'll swindle your mother -
and just for a buck -
You'll turn into something vile and corrupt.
You'll mug and you'll steal for my narcotic charm -
and you'll feel content while I'm in your arm.
And when you realize the monster you've grown -
You'll solemnly promise to leave me alone.
You think that you've got the mystical knack?
Well, sweetie -
Just try getting me off you back!
The vomit -
The Cramps -
Your gut tied in a knot -
the cold chills,the hot sweat, the withdrawal pains-
You can only be saved by my little white grains.
And when you return -
just as I foretold -
I know that you'll give me body and soul.
You'll give up your conscience, your morals, your heart -
And you will be mine -
till death do us part.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I know I have butchered some lines - but it was a long time ago - and I can't recall it all exactly.
All the pot ate holes in my memory.
However - it never caused me a moments discomfort upon quitting it.
:smokin: [ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-04-23 13:06 ]
Post by: Anonymous on April 23, 2005, 04:37:00 PM
There is recent research that smoking marijuana increases the risk of psychosis for people with bipolar disorder.
Hey, there's very little in life that is safe for *everyone*. Some people are allergic to peanut butter. Some people are diabetic. Some people are phenylketoneuric (sp?). Some people have to really watch their diet to control heart disease.
I'm not repeating reefer madness crap. Just saying that someone who has bipolar disorder might do better to avoid weed and, if they're all that interested in it, push for more research to see if it really *is* that dangerous for them or not.
Timoclea
Post by: Anonymous on April 23, 2005, 04:40:00 PM
(http://http://www.cannabis-pics.com/567SKUNK__1-med.jpg)
Peeps with bipolar, stick with the indicas and you'll do fine. No imported crap either.
Post by: Antigen on April 23, 2005, 05:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-23 13:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
There is recent research that smoking marijuana increases the risk of psychosis for people with bipolar disorder.
Are you talking about the Austrailian study? I remember when that came out. There was a lot of buzz about it in drug policy reform lists. Essentially, the concensus was that 1) some of the people affiliated w/ the study (funders and promoters) were shady; as in Enoch Gordis shady and 2) that it only showed a correlation, not a causual relationship. In other words, that you coudn't tell from the data they gathered whether the pot smoking actually caused future breakdown or whether people predisposed to such mental illness tended to smoke more than others.
I always have to think of my brother whenever the topic of MJ and schyzophrenia come up. He smoked a LOT of pot. And he went nuts. But he was a lot less nuts when he was smoking a lot of pot than when he wasn't.
You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries of magic and religion. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is the price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, intelligent enough.
--Aldous Huxley, author
Post by: RTP2003 on April 23, 2005, 05:40:00 PM
No need to fear the weed, my bipolar friends.....just like other studies claiming Mary's a bad girl, it's a lie! Now stop slandering her you assholes!
Post by: Anonymous on April 23, 2005, 07:28:00 PM
Andrea
Post by: BuzzKill on April 23, 2005, 07:30:00 PM
I think Timocela has a point.
I have spoken with several mental patients who felt like they went Quite Mad while trying pot. It can have a very unpleasant effect for some of these folks and it can be unpleasant enough to land some few of them on a mental ward. I have also known folks like Antigen's brother who seemed much better when stoned than when not. I imagan it depends on just what is wrong with the brain tro begin with.
I do honestly believe folks in general ought to leave the stuff alone. I have various reasons for thinking so.
But its just not true that there is any kind of addiction factor with marijuana.
Liken the stuff is not being addicted to it.[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-04-23 16:34 ]
Post by: Deborah on April 24, 2005, 12:06:00 AM
I'm really sorry your daughter had such a horrible experience!! And that she is free of that experience today.
The first time I read your letter I have to admit I laughed too. Not at you, but the idea that you might illicit a drop of caring in the staff for your child.
The idea that the program/staff might take your requests seriously - prepare her favorite meals with love, be patient with her waking up late and being oppositional sometimes, not to punish her for crying or for phone content, and that you might call several times a day to see how her day was going - really was laughable.
It totally goes against the majority of programs' methods.
I thought, this mother appears to really care about her child. WHY would she relinquish her to total strangers and then be so naieve as to think that they would have the same vested interest in her.
And lastly, how could turning your child over to strangers- that you would have to instruct on how to think well about your daughter- ever be the most loving decision you had made.
Post by: Antigen on April 24, 2005, 04:21:00 AM
You did a good thing by ridding Massachusetts of Desisto. Don't think or say that you shut them down, though. You didn't. No one can, so long as there are wild places and credulous marks. But you made Mas. a better commonwealth and educated a good many people in the process.
I'm not really out to shut down all residential facilities. I'm just out to encourage public dialogue and scrutiny. I do believe that will shut a lot of these places down. My heart does not bleed for them. But it's not my aim, either. I just want people to understand.
If you want a voluntary urine sample from me it'll have to be a taste test.
--Bumper Sticker
Post by: Anonymous on April 24, 2005, 12:53:00 PM
Andrea
Post by: kellyadams on June 25, 2010, 04:04:47 PM
Let me say first that when I wrote that story, I was in an extremely bad place. It's a long story, but it stemmed from the fact that when I was in CCM my parents and therapist, Garth, decided that my lifelong passion of political journalism would be "nonworking" for my "recovery." Keep in mind that I was almost 19 at the time and had spent most of my school years pursuing this goal. Oh yeah, and I wasn't allowed to go to Univ. of TX in Austin (the best public university in the state, IMO), despite my excellent grades, b/c my parents and Garth thought too many of my "non-working friends" attended. Okay. So, I ended up going to UT Arlington for no particular reason other than wanting to move out of my parents house, and I decided I would major in Anthropology. I had a major breakdown when the program brainwashing (I'll get to that point later) fell away and I felt completely dissacociated from any concept of who I "was." I ended up switching majors several times, finally settling on graphic design for no reason other than I took one class and was pretty good. When I graduatetd college, I moved back to Houston and got a job as a designer in an ad agency. I absolutely hated it. It's really hard to do something 8+ hrs a day that you were never really into in the first place. So I quit that job, fell into an extreme depressive episode (I was later diagnosed with bipolar, but that's another story) and finally began to "deal" with the feelings I had about the program. So yes, my account was pretty angry... I was very, very angry at that time - particularly b/c I was searching for some validation from my parents and got none. That can make a person pretty resentful. That is the context of my testimony commented on in this post.
At this point, the raw emotions associated with my program experience have dissapated somewhat. Once I became functional again after that severe depression, I discovered the social work master's program at the University of Houston and finally got back to something that was really "me." Lefty and all! Garth was an LCSW and honestly I don't know how he keeps his license. I could get into the details of our professional code of ethics but I won't.
Post by: kellyadams on June 25, 2010, 04:21:01 PM
So here are the specific points made by Amanda (and others I suppose) about my story that I want to address.
1. The talk show appearance. I have never claimed that I was "forced" to appear on this show and defend the program. Quite the opposite! AT THAT TIME (right after I "graduated" CCM), I TRULY BELIEVED IN THE PROGRAM. It wasn't "fake." I actually believed everything I was saying AT THAT TIME. Once I figured out that there was no way I could leave CCM successfully (ie, not being put on a bus to Denver with no money and no way to contact any relatives in Houston that would've helped me) without graduating, my mind had a choice to make. Either resolve the cognitive dissonance by completely "buying in," or attempt to get by until my parents caved and remain miserable. I found it much easier to handle being in the program once I finally BELIEVED in it for real. I honestly believed that the program saved my life, and that if not for the program, I would be dead in a gutter. I BELIEVED the false/exaggerated stories I told about my past drug use because it "fit" my new concept of who I was in the program. So yes, Amanda, I "chose" to go on TV and sing the program's praises. But I did so because I had disconnected from reality so much that I actually believed what I was saying.
2. The seminars. This is something I feel very strongly about, especially now that I am an LCSW myself. THESE SEMINARS ARE DAMAGING, PERIOD. Please Amanda, tell me what therapeutic value came from Garth screaming in my face during a "process" that my grandfather was dead, and that he died knowng what a piece of shit I was? By the way, he told me the next day that my grandpa wasnt actually dead, he had been "mistaken." Please enlighten me about how it is helpful for a survivor of childhood sexual abuse to be physically held down by several peers and screamed at to "get up" because "he's on top of you again!" I have never read any professional literature that would condone such "treatment" for sexual abuse survivors. Any "good" that you or others felt you got out of these barbaric exercises is completely negated by the trauma inflicted on others. There was no choice involved here. Either you "get real" in the seminars or you don't level up, it's that simple. How is that a real choice?
Post by: kellyadams on June 25, 2010, 04:38:42 PM
3. The time frame. Yes, it took me awhile to fully grasp my real feelings about the program. I was subjected to systematic, powerful messaging about who I was for 18 months - day in, day out, every minute. Your mind does not simply shake that kind of conditioning off in a few days when you're removed from the environment. It is a gradual process, starting in confusion, going to an eventual catharsis (when the feelings are at their peak), and finally settling into some kind of acceptance. In the "confusion" stage (while I was at UTA in college), I absolutely had PTSD. I dissacociated, I had recurrent nightmares, I was always looking for an "escape route," and I did horrible, shameful things that I NEVER would have done were it not for my psychological distress caused by the program. I won't tell you all what I did, it is that shameful to me still. I did those things because I had lost my "anchor" - since I had been stripped of my ability to be confident in my own instincts, I went through life nihilistically. Nothing mattered, nothing made sense, so why not put myself in danger over and over again?
4. Abuse at CCM. Yes there was abuse at CCM. Emotional abuse is abuse. "Take downs" of teenage girls by grown men who are not trained in proper restraint techniques are abuse. "Sitting" on someone is abuse. Confining people to stimulus free rooms (the ISO rooms) for hours, days, weeks at a time is abuse. I absolutely stand by my statements that I witnessed physical abuse at Cross Creek.
So that's about all for now. I have no idea if anyone will read this, but I had to put it out there. Part of me wishes I'd never written that stupid story, because it really pisses me off to read others' twisted interpretations of my experience. But oh well, too late now.
Kelly Adams
(kcadams1980)
Post by: BuzzKill on June 25, 2010, 07:30:13 PM
Do you know about the Turley law firm's case against WWASP? In case you don't and might like to contact them:
http://www.turleylaw.com/ (http://www.turleylaw.com/)
Post by: anythinganyone on June 27, 2010, 02:22:50 PM
Post by: anythinganyone on June 27, 2010, 02:29:42 PM
Quote from: "Guest"
I could write as many letters to the people I wanted to. That is, if Im correct, a form of communication.
However, the letters would be delivered via a family rep; you could not directly put them in a mailbox. The correspondence could also be hindered as I know my therapist had a copy of one of my letters while my parents claim they never sent anything of the sort to him.
Quote
And I did go into the "outside world" on more than several occasions. Actually the longer I was there the more I went into public. For instance, we went to a public gym to work out. I went and did community service at a convelecent home and at an elementary school close to the facility. I went to a dentist on the outside, I went gardening with a couple of girls up the street from my facility, I went to a ceramics class put on by a staff member in her studio once a week. I was not totally cut off.
Don't know how it was then, but the CCM I was at only allowed outside time to upper levels. Otherwise, we were punished severely for even looking at the outside world.
Quote
I never divulged anything I wasnt comfortable sharing with my group.
In which case progress was halted and punishments could be dealt (i.e. cat 4 refusal).
Quote
In seminars I said some uncomfortable things to the group, but I was ok with that because we had all girl seminars and my facilitator was a woman, so not a big deal to me.
Not anymore. Seminars are now basically the only time boys and girls are put in the same room at CCM, in the meantime they can not converse in anyway "off-task". In addition, "some uncomfortable things" is an understatement; there was a huge amount of pressure to cry and reveal deep dark shameful secrets else you will be kicked out of the seminar and held back for two months.
Post by: anythinganyone on June 27, 2010, 02:41:29 PM
Quote from: "Guest"
I could write my family and friends who were not doing drugs with me.
The rule at CCM was that you could only write to your home address and your parents could only write to you. Communication with other people required your parents to send the letter to you and if you wanted to send a letter to someone, it had to be sent to your parents.
Quote
I was on phase 4 before I got unmonitered phone calls. I also got to email my parents.
Those never happened as far as I'm aware. No e-mail communication and no unmonitored phone calls at any point. You could have visits with parents however at upper levels.
Quote
The reality is the kids that go there are minors. thecnically, all their parents have to do is feed them, clothe them, and give them a sanitary home.
This may depend on the state, but there are more requirements. Children are entitled to an education and an environment which is emotionally and socially appropriate.
Quote
Even though they have the right to call people in jail, they cant call whenever they want. If you are in lockdown, you can call. You have to call when they tell you to. When my husband was in jail for this ridiculous drug charge, he wrote as the main communication, because you had to call collect and he could only call at certain times.
but you could STILL CALL.
Quote
If you were on the college program, you went to community college and got to do alot of stuff outside CCM. Ask Perri, she was a college girl.
I was told by staff and the rulebook that conversing with others outside of necessity in the college program was not permitted. In addition, I believe you were supervised by staff.
Quote
No one had a job I dont think. the college program was the only school outside of school at CCM. The school there worked great for me. I had dropped out before going, so I had to make up a semester and do 11th and 12th grade. I made all that up wiht As and Bs and graduated High School 3 days before graduating the program. I liked the self paced thing and people just kept to themselves in school. No one really talked and we just worked on our stuff, which was good for me.
You could not get any score less than a B on a test; I consider the school system there pathetic. It was impossible to perform poorly thus the grades there indicate nothing. Self-paced just means reading a textbook and completing tests.
Quote
I went to class wiht my group. As I said it wasnt bad. Did you guys go to public school while in the program? I think that is what you are saying. We went on the facility grounds so no one other than the kids in my group went to school wiht me. I didnt work or go to school outside the program while in the program so i cant really answer that last one.
For school, we did not go anywhere. The teachers simply used the rooms of the facility that were otherwise used for activities or groups.
Post by: Whooter on June 27, 2010, 05:27:03 PM
On another note learning styles differ from child to child so a self paced curriculum would be very beneficial to most students vs. the cookie cutter program that public schools offer. Anytime you can find a program willing to offer a self paced curriculum it is a plus for the students. It seems the guest benefited from CCM seeing that she had dropped out of school prior to attending CCM and was able to graduate ahead of schedule while in the program.
...
Post by: Awake on June 28, 2010, 01:18:47 AM
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0)
.
Post by: Yael Eshet Khever on June 28, 2010, 10:43:24 AM
CCM, like all other WWASP programs, had neither. Its "academic program" was never properly accredited, as was proven in the Ivy Ridge case (remember, all WWASP facilities used the same "individually-paced academic program").
Another WWASP lie.
Post by: katrina.always on June 30, 2010, 09:36:48 AM
Post by: anythinganyone on July 22, 2010, 06:39:19 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
On another note learning styles differ from child to child so a self paced curriculum would be very beneficial to most students vs. the cookie cutter program that public schools offer. Anytime you can find a program willing to offer a self paced curriculum it is a plus for the students. It seems the guest benefited from CCM seeing that she had dropped out of school prior to attending CCM and was able to graduate ahead of schedule while in the program.
I would disagree; I would venture to say the "self-paced curriculum" was more cookie-cutter than the public school system. No lectures, no interaction, and a very poor selection of courses. Every course is just reading the textbook, completing some exercises the "teacher" may not even check, following completion of a test. The transcripts may look pretty with all those As and Bs, but I doubt it reflect's a student's true mastery of the subject matter or study habits since the academic system was so simple, and it was literally impossible to perform poorly (all that meant was a re-do). I remember I completed my first five credits there in, what, four or five days? Let's not forget to mention no studying or academic work was allowed outside of the school hours unless you were a level five or above. It's depressing just thinking about it.
Post by: Samara on July 22, 2010, 08:14:37 PM
Two days a week.
English was memorizing a 5th grade vocabulary by an unaccredited teacher.
Math was "here's a book." No one checked.
Science was hiking in the woods and exclaiming, "Wow. Here's a pine cone. It fell from a tree. That's nature!"
Art was let's look at magazines and cut out pretty pictures.
No social studies. Sociopathic studies, maybe.
Communication was sitting in a rap yelling "fuck you" at the floor, yourself, or the person across from you. Seriously, you got credit for that.
It should've counted for drama, too.
Transcripts were totally pulled out of thin air. And good luck getting them if you left early. It took awile any, because tey had to manufacture them first.
I heard they added academics in the 90's. Not sure if it was real or just on paper. The guy who fought for real academics was opposed.
A lot of what Kelly Adams described was CEDU too, in terms of emotional abuse. I've seen a variation of the Grandpa story and retraumatizing victims of abuse many times.
And letters only to and from parents ONLY - no other relatives, etc. Letters were monitored and rewritten to pass censorship. No phone calls out except once every two weeks to your parents. Monitored. You did not dare to crititque the program.
Post by: DannyB II on July 22, 2010, 11:00:13 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
Oh god. High School At CEDU:
Two days a week.
English was memorizing a 5th grade vocabulary by an unaccredited teacher.
Math was "here's a book." No one checked.
Science was hiking in the woods and exclaiming, "Wow. Here's a pine cone. It fell from a tree. That's nature!"
Art was let's look at magazines and cut out pretty pictures.
No social studies. Sociopathic studies, maybe.
Communication was sitting in a rap yelling "fuck you" at the floor, yourself, or the person across from you. Seriously, you got credit for that.
It should've counted for drama, too.
Transcripts were totally pulled out of thin air. And good luck getting them if you left early. It took awile any, because tey had to manufacture them first.
I heard they added academics in the 90's. Not sure if it was real or just on paper. The guy who fought for real academics was opposed.
A lot of what Kelly Adams described was CEDU too, in terms of emotional abuse. I've seen a variation of the Grandpa story and retraumatizing victims of abuse many times.
And letters only to and from parents ONLY - no other relatives, etc. Letters were monitored and rewritten to pass censorship. No phone calls out except once every two weeks to your parents. Monitored. You did not dare to crititque the program.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: Your memory of school. Mine at Elan was not that much different. Their diploma was worthless, well maybe not I made a plane out of it. The paper they used worked well for flight.
I had to go back to school while in the military, I was very upset that my diploma was not accepted and I had to get a GED.
Well that was in the past, the military also provided me with a nice college education and a great career for a while.
Post by: anythinganyone on July 23, 2010, 01:23:39 AM
Oh, yes. I remember when they had "spelling" time at Cross Creek when they completely revamped the schedule. It was so chaotic because there was pretty much nothing to do on the days there was no school, so they started filling it up with garbage like "spelling". Randomly going through a dictionary and calling on people to spell words, fun, fun!
Post by: Samara on July 26, 2010, 01:34:17 PM
magazines for art were not the fun kind. Coupon books, family mags, newspapers. It's not like they were tecahing us decoupage. More like here's the scissors, cut sh*t up and Voila! ART!