Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Ridge Creek School / Hidden Lake Academy => Topic started by: Deborah on March 29, 2005, 12:44:00 PM
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Examples of the "treatment" my son received by a "counselor" who was young, just out of school, who frequently had to look in the manual to determine the "appropriate" consequence, which was always black and white.
In group she asked what was up for him. He expressed concern about his older brother who was having a difficult time. She placed him on restriction (limited calories, no interaction with peers, work detail) for "lying", until he could be "honest". He wanted off restriction so he made up a lie. She liked it and released him.
What might he learn from this? To think and/or respond only in the way that is acceptable to them? That it's not ok to be concerned about someone else or to express it? Even though my son was aware of their manipulation, when one is subjected to this kind of thought control and conditioning for extended periods it will have a negative impact on their spontaneous and honest reaction and expression. He rarely shares his feelings or thoughts now. They conditioned him to think that others aren't interested and his "truth" is unacceptable. My observation of him now is that he is overly concerned about what others might think of him, that other's aren't interested in how he feels or what he thinks and don't want to be bothered. Even with me, who he knows he can trust and be honest with, he will fabricate unnecessarily. I call him on it and remind him that he's no longer in a mind control prison and that I'm not one of "them". We have a good laugh and he relaxes and expresses the truth. But, isn't that the kind of teen parents expect to return- one who doesn't bother them, who stays quiet, keeps their thoughts to themselves, only speaks the "acceptable"? He learned to lie in order to please, and to wrongly assume that everyone expects what the program expected. The programs argument- the teen must stay focused on "their work", can't think about anyone else. I consider their methods to be extreme and austere. A skilled and effective counselor would have let him talk about his concern for his brother and explore how, if at all, that might relate to himself.
My son had a female and male counselor, surrogate parents if you will. An example of how they "parented" him.
He told me that he didn't feel like he was getting enough time with them. Having lost my court battle to bring him back home- soley due to the lies presented to the judge by his father and the program- and resigned to the fact that he would be there for 22 months, I decided to make an attempt to "work with" his counselors. In confidence I shared his concern with the female, told her that he was probably just needing some individual attention, a "mom", and could she make herself available to him. She violated my confidence. She and the male called him in, grilled him for an hour and a half and put him on restriction for "manipulation". Their interpretation- He lied to me about how much time they spent with him. She certainly found time to lecture him on how many kids they had to care for (18 or so at the time) and how he got "ample" time with them, yet couldn't make time to give him individual attention. This was early on in his 20 month stay. It certainly set the tone for my son and I. I never divulged another thing he told me and we both "got it"- he was in the hands of dictators who were free to weild their "power" in abusive ways. They weren't interested in a working relationship with me. They wanted me to defer to their methods and expect nothing of them. The headmaster declined to explain how the handling of this situation was beneficial for my son. How the act of violating my confidence was good modeling when the teens were consequenced for the same.
The following week his counselor told me that he had something to say about his "lie" the previous week. I asked him if he lied. He replied yes. I asked him if he felt they were spending enough time with him. No. I told him that there was a difference between how much time they actually spent with him and his opinion as to whether it was enough. I asked again if he felt like he received enough individual time with them. He said he didn't know. Obviously confused and trying to answer honestly without violating the perameters they'd set for the interaction. I restated the question. Did he lie or was he expressing how it felt to him and what he wanted. Was it enough? He said no, but he understood that they had alot to do and limited time. I asked how he had arrived at this conclusion. He said they had called him in for an hour or more to "discuss it". They pointed out how much time they spent with him. I asked a final time if he truely felt he was getting enough individual time. He said no. I assured him that he did not lie, but expressed a need which they were not willing (or able) to meet.
He then announced that he needed to tell me about another incident he was on restriction for. The entire group had "confronted" him about being nice in group, but not outside group. Then two girls confronted him about violating confidentiality. He attempted to respond to one of them about their false accusation and the counselor silenced him. He told her that the constitution gave him the right to speak. She kicked him out of group and told him he had the right to think in the hall and assigned him to work duty. I asked if he was now clear on the procedure for rebutting others accusations in group and about the "rule" he had apparently violated. He replied no.
The following week I told his counselor that my purpose for sharing was in hopes that she could address the issue and asked if she could entertain the possibility that he hadn't "lied" but was trying to communicate a need in the best way he could. She went off telling the story again and that he had been given the opportunity to discuss it during the hour and 40 minute period. I asked if he was punished for lying or for poorly expressing a need. She had to go- late placing the next call. I expressed my resentment- anytime I had a question she had no answer or had to get off the phone. She reminded me that she only had 20 minutes. I reminded her that most of our calls were 10 minutes and she was frequently late calling me because she'd spent extra time with the previous parent. She said that my comment was not "an accurate representation of reality". I told her it damned well was and that I'd start documenting it. And further, that I wanted to return to the discussion the next week. I didn't receive my weekly call from her or my weekly call with my son for the following two weeks.
When I finally spoke to him again he expressed concern that he might be headed for wilderness because he was taken for a physical the day before. He was extremely distressed and afraid that he would loose his 8 month home visit. He asked if I knew anything about it. Refusing to lie to him, I told him that I'd had a conference call with his counselors and the Dir of counseling and they had asked me not to discuss it with him. I asked how the physical went. He said he refused to take it. They sent him without it, telling him he'd "have to take the consequences." I asked him if he'd ever been sent to pre-wilderness. No. A violation of their stated procedures. I posted this on a message board and shortly after parents received a new protocol to replace the old in the parent manual, giving them the right to refer to wilderness "as needed".
Some of the most unreasonable and irrational people I'd ever encountered. The headmaster accused me of harrassing the staff on campus and at home, of searching out his home email address. He must have felt like an idiot when I suggested that he check his outbox and mailed a copy to all parties concerned. Of course, he didn't retract his accusations or apologize. They knew they had my ex wrapped around their finger so they colluded with him in restricting my contact with my son overtly and covertly- totally ignoring my parental rights. When I took the matter to family court they worked together to spin the illusion that my son was "on a slippery slope" and that I was attempting to interfere with the "treatment" he needed. A very simple task when small town politics were at play and the county JP was representing my ex.
When I reported them for operating without a license and opening an unlicensed wilderness program I was labeled advarsarial and frequently did not receive my weekly phone calls. They were very covert in accomplishing this- problem with the phone lines (ongoing?). Called but I wasn't there? Or the line was busy (I had call waiting)? He was off-campus at his scheduled phone time?
I also requested that his counselor make an attempt to attend some of his baseball games- didn't attend one game all season, even though she knew this was important to him- she'd stated in a previous conversation that he practically begged her to attend. She confessed a lack of time. He was 14 for god's sake, a skilled athelete and accustomed to a mom who was involved in his life and sports, who over night found himself in a facility where no one was genuinely interested in him outside of the money his participation brought in. They were incapable of nurturing or thinking well about the teens. No kid wants their parental role model to be a full-time "counselor", constantly pointing out their "faults" -real or perceived. Checking a book or manual to decide what their consequence will be. The only activities she attended were the "therapeutic" events at the facility. In fact, charades designed to "demonstrate" for the parents how their teen was "growing".
How does this condition them for their own role as a parent? It's not healthy for a parent or parental role model to be in "therapeutic" mode 24/7. There is ample research to support the notion that the overuse of punishment is detrimental, and even more so when it's not accompanied by nurturing.
A female peer accused him in group of having a "relationship" with one of the girls. No questions asked, he was placed on restriction. The girl later confessed that she had lied but he remained on restriction. Why? In case her confession was a lie? Is this their method of "teaching/conditioning" the teen to stay on good terms with all their peers so no one "falls out" on them. Sick and twisted, but certainly could provide the illusion that there is camaraderie among the teens.
Even their language and terminology was manipulative and deceptive. Ex: They refered to their rules as "agreements". One was "out of agreement" if they violated a "rule". Doesn't ageement imply that two or more have actually agreed to something? The teens did not agree to follow those rules by any stretch of the imagination. A democratic process in which the teens participated in a group consensus on how they would function as a group was not in place. Is that good training for future social interaction- I make the rules in our relationship and call them agreements which I expect you to comply with? No two ways about it. It teaches how to lie and/or be deceptive and certainly doesn't teach one how to accurately use the english language or how to accurately interpret situations.
He was denied a home visit because he was caught smoking. An older boy had given his friend a cigarette. The two of them went into the laudry room and fired it up. The older boy followed and banged on the door to alert security. The facility is 10 miles from the nearest town. They were irritated when I asked how the boy might have acquired tobacco and if he too was "consequenced". The boy had denied it, but they "thought he was lying". No consequence, even though my son and his friend reported who they got it from. And a direct contradiction to what had previously happen to my son- punished for an accusation that wasn't proven. To this day I question if it was a set up. Any participant will tell you that tobacco, dip, and drugs can be acquired by staff. I absolutely believe their agenda is to prevent the teen from having their scheduled visits home, particularly in the early days and also if they have a parent who is not completely supportive.
It took an act of congress to get him home for my father's funeral. They finally agreed that he could be off campus 24 hours, mind you to fly 1000 miles, attend a funeral, and fly back. Their manipulative way of saying NO. By this time all communications had to go through their attorney's assistant who was actually a decent man but limited by the program and his boss. He overrode their decision and gave me 72 hours. Said if there was a stink about it to refer them to him. An example of how good people get sucked into colluding with these abusive facilities.
The owner is a PhD psychotherapist who financed the creation of an idustry association- to spin the illusion that its members were somehow better and more distinquished than the "used car salesmen" in the industry. He is an Ed Con and only refers to his own programs- a TBS and Wilderness program. The cost- $5000+ a month for 20+ months. All staff were "credentialed". While I'm not aware of isolation rooms or blatant physical abuse, they employed many of the same more covertly abusive techniques as other programs- monitored phone calls and mail, no access to a public phone, no contact with siblings and family, work detail and limited calories/variety of food while on restriction which could literally go on indefinitely for minor infractions, denying access to parents as punishment, and while presenting as a non-restraint facility it was occasionally used. Like a maximum security prison, there was walky-talky communication among staff when a teen was moving around campus alone. Parents were not allowed on campus unnanounced.
I took a drive to the facility the evening before our first off-campus visit. I pulled in and saw my son walk around the corner of a building. On closer observation I noticed that he was in work clothes, carrying a black trash bag and a pole used to pick up trash. I was driving over to say hello when someone stopped me and told me that I must leave and not return until the next morning. I couldn't even say hello. Everything they did and said was designed to enforce the fact that they were the ultimate authority over the teen, that the parent was no longer making or involved in decision making. In a rage, I fought the urge to "kidnap" my son and head for Mexico. As I later found out, he was on restriction and had been for a month. Meaning that he'd had work detail except while in school, limited calories, and no contact with peers. He was thin and pale, grey like a lizard. He'd had diarrhea for 3 days prior and most of our 36 hours were spent treating his physical ailments. He was extremely anxious about making mistakes, very self-critical, avoided eye contact with people in public, avoided making decisions when given the opportunity. This was not my son, to feel ashamed and overly self conscious. I likened it to a cowling dog who had been beaten into submission. And what really broke my heart was when he asked me not to show him love or affection, stating that it was "too confusing". We both cried about the insanity of a situation that neither of us could change. It was beyond either of our wildest imaginations that such a place could exist in the 21st century.
I felt awkward, then disgusted as the headmaster described a past student to the proper, middle-class parents in the room, "Birkenstocks, baggy pants, tobogan" with a tone of disapproval and judgment. I looked down at my birkenstocks while feeling his obvious lack of appreciation or acceptance for diversity. One size fits all. Standing there in his duckhead slacks, polo, and loafers he assured parents that teens did not need designer clothes, and birks and baggies were unacceptable too. What's left? Prison uniforms?
Every individual I interacted with lied and manipulated on a regular basis, ironically the thing they professed to "treat". If time allowed I'd outline all the lies they told. Suffice it to say they were chronic, habitual liars. The most blatant-lying to the state about their classification and operating without the appropriate license for 7 years. My ex even grew tired of their BS and pulled our son two months early, when they attempted to deny a visit that was important to him. Of course this voided the "warranty", as did his decision not to send our son to the traditional boarding school they had recommended upon graduation. They certainly don't want the teen returning home and shattering the illusion that the program was successful.
They employ the same technique that politicians use. Speak what you want the public (parent) to believe, most will believe it, despite their observations to the contrary. While they profess to re-build trust and closeness, they actually interfer with healthy familial bonds. I think on some level they believe that parents who would consider abdicating responsibility are not bonded with their child to begin with. I do believe they possess the same disdain for parents as they do for the "defiant teens". They absolutely know they are not going to 'heal' the relationship between teen and parent. Healthy independence is a good thing. I don't believe for a minute that is what these teens leave with. More accurately they realize and resign themselves to the fact that they will never have a genuinely close relationship with their parents.
I hate that my son was subject to and lived with complete and total imbeciles who modeled/taught nothing about cooperation and appropriate social interaction and who did nothing to foster a healthy self-esteem, but indeed damaged his self image and created undue anxiety and confusion in a confident, happy-go-lucky, young man who once believed that the world was a fairly safe place to be, and who considered himself to be a valued and respected member of society.
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bump it up
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::bump::
and again...
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ILL TELL YOU (ANYONE WHO READS THIS) WHAT THE FUCKING TECHNICES OF HLA ARE. ITS ALL LYING, MAINIPULATING AND BREAKING THEIR OWN DAMN RULES. FUCK HLA. I HAVENT LEARNED SHIT THEIR. HLA ALSO CONVINCED MY PARENTS NOT TO LET ME COME HOME FOR CHRISTMAS. NEVER TRUST THAT FUCKING PLACE. FUCK HLA
VINCE PG 49
:flame:
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OH YEH,
THEY ALSO CONVINCED MY PARENTS TO MAKE ME STAY POST GRAD FOR 1 YEAR. I LL NEVER ACCEPT ANYTHING I LEARNED THEIR. FUCK THAT PLACE.
VINCE
OUT SINCE MAY 2004 :flame:
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On 2005-04-13 18:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"OH YEH,
THEY ALSO CONVINCED MY PARENTS TO MAKE ME STAY POST GRAD FOR 1 YEAR. I LL NEVER ACCEPT ANYTHING I LEARNED THEIR. FUCK THAT PLACE.
VINCE
OUT SINCE MAY 2004 :flame: "
Can you blame them, Vince? I mean, how else are they going to extract another $60,000.00 from your folks?
Can't you see they're just doing what they have to in order to keep their lovely campus and obviously effective program open?
I'm sure Mrs. Gray will be along soon to tell everyone that you're a liar and that this type of thing has never happened at HLA...
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NICE
Vince
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HLA claims that it is NOT a BM or "emotional growth" program, but an "insightful thinking program" with a "therapeutic curriculum".
What would those who experienced it, or those who administered it say? My experience is the entire program is based on BM, beginning with ultimate ?punishment? of being incarcerated and isolated from family and the outside world.
They also claim they are not a lock-down facility, but have locked windows and doors in the dorms, night security, walkie-talkie surveillance when a student is moving around campus, and stop teens who try to leave.
That fits my definition, but is there a standard, technical definition? Or is it up to anyone?s interpretation?
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This is getting more frightening every time I read something new...Why, because no matter what year a person is talking about, we can all relate. It is still going on.........
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The locked doors and windows prevent boys/girls from getting into the other gender's dorms for rendezvous and to prevent middle of the night running away. Night security is a must at any boarding school, including college campuses. If a teen under the age of 17 leaves a school they are registered at, it is considered running away and the law is called. That is why they try to prevent them from leaving so the law doesn't have to be called.
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On 2005-04-22 08:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The locked doors and windows prevent boys/girls from getting into the other gender's dorms for rendezvous and to prevent middle of the night running away. Night security is a must at any boarding school, including college campuses. If a teen under the age of 17 leaves a school they are registered at, it is considered running away and the law is called. That is why they try to prevent them from leaving so the law doesn't have to be called. "
This sounds like some more program garbage/justification.
1. HLA advertises as a no "lockdown" facility.
2. Proper supervision prevents unwanted co-mingling.
3. Locked windows and doors with no interior release are a fire hazard and against the fire code (unless the facility is a "lockdown" and exceptions are made).
4. Walking away from the facility is NOT considered "running away" (unless kid is court ordered, which many HLA kids are). It is considered "truancy."
5. The legal "dropout" age in Georgia is 16, so any kid over 16 can walk away from HLA without repercussion, provided they are not mandated into "treatment."
Get your facts straight before you attempt to "educate" others before somebody makes a stupid decision based on your obviously fallacious statements.
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So, do you know HLAs definition of 'lock down'? What would be different than the scenerio I provided?
Yep, locked windows prevent the possibility of a rendezvous, and they are locked and can't be opened to allow for fresh air?
Night security at traditional boarding schools and collegs are there for safety, their job is not to apprehend a student that is trying to leave. Chances are good there aren't any kids trying to leave those facilities.
I would guess they are also charged with observing those sleeping in the hallway or in 'fresh air' (whatever that is- and something you'd never see at BS/College).
I was told that staff would follow a teen who was trying to leave. If they couldn't convince them to return, they would call the police. Several ex participants have commented about being restrained when attempting to leave. Restraint is pretty convincing.
Just wondering, if restraint came into play because there were too many attempts, and calling the 'law' so frequently might reflect on their community image.
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The manual states the age of majority to be 17.
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On 2005-04-22 09:31:00, Deborah wrote:
"The manual states the age of majority to be 17."
Deborah, you, of all people, should know that HLA's "manual" is full of shit (lies).
ATLANTA -- State education officials swear Georgia's school dropout problem is improving, but Gov. Roy Barnes and members of his reform commission may wind up recommending the General Assembly raise the mandatory attendance age anyway next year from 16 to 18.
The mandatory school attendance age is 16 in Georgia and many states, despite the fact that most students don't graduate until they are 17 or 18.
I wonder who's correct on this issue? HLA or the Governor of Georgia?
Don't drink the Kool-Aid...
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...between the age of mandatory school attendance and the age of majority. One is the age at which you can legally drop out of school. The other is the age at which you can run away from "home" wherever that may be at the time and not have the law after you. It is possible that you may be able to drop out of school at 16, but wait until 17 to move out.
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On 2005-04-22 11:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"...between the age of mandatory school attendance and the age of majority. One is the age at which you can legally drop out of school. The other is the age at which you can run away from "home" wherever that may be at the time and not have the law after you. It is possible that you may be able to drop out of school at 16, but wait until 17 to move out."
Once again, I will say "do your homework before posting."
Georgia Code
This is a summary of laws dealing with the age to be considered an adult in your state. It is not intended to be all inclusive, but does contain basic and other information. You may check for updates using the state code or bills. If you are a minor and need to your minority removed, search for the word minority under your state. Forms with US- at the beginning of the control number are sample forms for all states.
(a) The age of legal majority in this state is 18 years; until that age all persons are minors.
(b) Nothing in this Code section shall be construed automatically to render an individual a resident of this state when that individual is in the state for the purpose of attending school. In the case of such individual, his residence will be considered to be the state in which his parents reside if under the laws of that state the individual would still be considered a minor and he is incapable of proving his emancipation. §39-1-1
What do I have to debunk next? Like I said, HLA's manual is FULL OF LIES and they can't even get the data correct regarding the laws of the state in which they operate.
Clearly, the age of majority is 18, although that has NOTHING to do with dropping out of school.
AND the laws of the "student's" (inmate's) HOME state apply, not the laws of the institution's home state.
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If a child runs off campus, what would you suggest would be the best policy? Let them walk and then call the parents? Let them walk and then call the law? What if they are 14 or 15. What would you suggest the safest way to handle that situation would be? As a parent, I would want to be notified immediately, and the law notified immediately as well to try to find my child.This is clearly not just a "dropping out of school" issue if they live on the campus of a boarding school. I would like some opinion on this subject as to the best scenario for this sort of situation.
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Didn't you claim to write those policies and procedures and parent's manuals Dysfunction in a previous post??? LOL so what you are saying if you are claiming the manual is full of lies is you wrote an erroneous manual. Hmmmmm.....so either A: you didn't write the manual B:It is not full of lies or C: they rewrote every manual you produced after you left ?
Just wondering.
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UNITED STATES:
Alabama - 19, No modifications.
Alaska - 18.
Arkansas - 18 or when child graduates from high school.
California - 18; unless child still in high school, then on graduation or 19th birthday which ever occurs first.
Connecticut - 18.
D.C. - 21 years of age, or at the point the minor is self supporting through marriage, employment,
or military service.
Delaware - 18.
Florida - 18.
Georgia - 18.
Hawaii - 18.
Idaho - 18.
Illinois - 18.
Kansas - 18.
Kentucky - 18, 19 if attending high school
Louisiana - 18: unless emancipated earlier by notarial act, marriage or judicial determination: if child is still in high school, then age 19, or upon graduation from high school, whichever occurs first.
Maine - 18.
Maryland - 18.
Massachusetts - 18.
Michigan - 18.
Minnesota - 18. With a person's 18th birthday come most of the rights, privileges, responsibilities, and obligations of adulthood. These rights include the right to vote, the right to make contracts, the right to marry without permission from parents or guardians, the right to purchase a firearm, and the right to serve on a jury.
Mississippi - 21
Montana - 18; or earlier if married, in the military, or fully financially independent of custodial parent.
Nebraska - 19
New Hampshire-Age if Majority: 18 (FULL CIVIL RIGHTS)
New Mexico - 18; however, a 16 year old may be emancipated by having entered into valid marriage or active duty in armed services or by receiving declaration of emancipation pursuant to court petition and order showing he/she is living apart and managing his/her own affairs.
Nevada - 18; 19 if still in high school.
New York - 21; NY has no statute with respect to emancipation*; issue is decided on case-by-case basis; emancipation can take place before 21, if appropriate court so decides
North Carolina - 18
North Dakota - 18
Ohio - 18 or graduated from high school, whichever occurs later.
Oklahoma - 18.
Oregon - 18; 21 if in school half-time or more.
Pennsylvania - 18 and out of high school.
Puerto Rico - 21 years of age, or whenever minor is self-supporting through marriage.
Tennessee - 18; unless child is still in high school; in such cases emancipation occurs when child graduates from high school or when class child is in when he/she reaches age of majority.
Utah - 18, or child graduates with high school graduating class.
Vermont - 18.
Virginia - 18 or a full-time high school student, not self-supporting, and living in the home of the parent, until the child reaches the age of nineteen (19) or graduates from high school, whichever comes first.
Washington - 18, Except as otherwise specifically provided by law, all persons shall be deemed and taken to be of full age for all purposes at the age of eighteen years.
Wisconsin - 18 and graduation from high school, or 19 years of age, whichever is sooner.
CANADA-AGE OF MAJORITY BY PROVINCE:
Alberta: 18.
British Columbia: 19.
Manitoba: 18.
New Brunswick: 19.
Newfoundland: 19
Northwest Territories: 19.
Nova Scotia: 19.
Ontario: 18.
Prince Edward Island: 18.
Quebec: 18.
Saskatchewan: 18.
Yukon Territories: 19.
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(b) Nothing in this Code section shall be construed automatically to render an individual a resident of this state when that individual is in the state for the purpose of attending school. In the case of such individual, his residence will be considered to be the state in which his parents reside if under the laws of that state the individual would still be considered a minor and he is incapable of proving his emancipation. §39-1-1
So, I guess the question would be- is HLA a 'school' or a lock-down treatment facility?
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I understand that they are dealing with kids, and kids with "issues" to boot. Security is an issue on any campus and HLA needs to take special precautions. On the other hand, wouldn't it be wonderful if there was something positive about the school to entice kids to stay? These children, some of whom have never been "runners", leave campus in the middle of the night, dark as pitch, out in the middle of nowhere with no money and no where to go. There is something wrong with that picture. Why is it acceptable to a therapeutic boarding school for the vast majority of their students to absolutely detest it there? Would it be so wrong to use positive reinforcement techniques rather than punishment?
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***If a child runs off campus, what would you suggest would be the best policy?
Well, there are many ways to deal with that situation, but what's at issue here is that they should do what they have stated and what parents are expecting them to do, which I posted above, which includes no mention of physical restraint. Why?
What would you do if your child were leaving home? Call the police after s/he left, restrain him/her to prevent him/her from leaving?
If you were that teen, how would you want to be treated in that situation? What would be most useful for you?
The policy states that if they can't convince the teen to stay, they will call the police, parents, and Ed Con immediately. Makes me wonder how one kid managed to get 1000 miles away before being 'caught', with apparently no money.
It's ten miles to civilization.
They highly recommend that parents extend gaurdianship, and will provide testimony.
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***Why is it acceptable to a therapeutic boarding school for the vast majority of their students to absolutely detest it there? Would it be so wrong to use positive reinforcement techniques rather than punishment?
How many times have I asked the same question. I think most parents, who understand BM, believe that there are ample rewards. My opinion that it's too heavy on punishment which is detrimental.
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Any positive reinforcement or reward system is so insignificant as to be inconsequential. I don't think it takes B.F.Skinner to see that.
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Again, they are still children and they are frightened. Frightened enough to risk darkness,
no money, miles from nowhere - they are running to nowhere. They are definitely running from
something or someone...Their spirit is lost and
they have no hope at the school. There is no
one to trust, other than the clergy..if that is
even safe.
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On 2005-04-22 14:21:00, SHH wrote:
"Didn't you claim to write those policies and procedures and parent's manuals Dysfunction in a previous post??? LOL so what you are saying if you are claiming the manual is full of lies is you wrote an erroneous manual. Hmmmmm.....so either A: you didn't write the manual B:It is not full of lies or C: they rewrote every manual you produced after you left ?
Just wondering."
Again, Mrs. Gray, you're just a plain idiot. READ the post, stupid.
I said I wrote the Policy and Procedure Manual (outlining the conduct of the staff and procedures for various contingencies regarding the kids, i.e. running away, etc.), NOT the PARENT MANUAL.
If you worked there and knew so much, wouldn't you know that there was NO PARENT MANUAL at all for the first year? Wouldn't you?
You are just the dumbest asshole I have ever interacted with. You're so stupid it defies words.
Do you think that anyy manual would remain unrevised for TEN YEARS? Have you ever had a job long enough to see new policies released or old ones revised? At my job, we get new policy memos all the time. Are you really that STUPID or just trying to shift the focus off of your own dead brain?
AGAIN, go back and READ before you make an ass of yourself (although it seems you just can't help the latter).
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-04-23 11:27 ][ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-04-23 11:29 ]
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Are you illiterate, Mrs. Gray, or do you just not care to read and report accurately?
Here's my earlier post that you obviously didn't read or intentionally tried to misrepresent (funny how you conspicuously forget to provide the link or quote, huh?)to get get a little "one-upsmanship":
"Again, Some More Facts
Posted: 2005-04-09 05:37:00
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1. I was the intake counselor for ALL students coming into HLA. I know for a fact students were "diagnosed" as ODD without EVER RECEIVING A PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION. (unethical, fraudulent)
2. The "school" was full of non-credentialed employees (Tom, Dean, Lauralyn, Jill, Rudy and many others). (unethical, fraudulent)
3. People at or near the top of the hierarchy had PHONY DEGREES. (unethical, fraudulent)
4. I personally authored treatment plans for nearly every kid that came through the doors and those plans were "showed off" to the parents, but NEVER FOLLOWED. (unethical, fraudulent)
5. I have degrees in Psychology and Sociology as well as an MBA. I think I AM qualified to comment on the "treatment business."
6. I worked directly with the Headmaster and owner and was privy to information that an Operations employee could never be.
7. I personally authored the Employee Handbook.
8. I personaly authored HLA's Policy and Procedure Manual.
Do you blindly dispute these statements?
Please, Mrs. Gray, don't try to impugn my character, experience or credentials because, ONCE MORE, you are not in possession of the FACTS.
Instead of saying "the problems have been corrected," why can you not simply admit, even if it was early on in the "school's" history, that MANY parents were defrauded out of hundreds of thousands of dollars and nearly every child was cheated out of what they deserved?
Your arguments would take on more gravity if you appeared less like a sycophant and more like a thoughtful debater.
If you would like to debate the efficacy of this treatment modality or this specific institution, I would be glad to do so, but not if I have to supply baseline information to educate you to the level where you can sustain a coherent argument. That you will have to do on your own. Until you do so, your points will be flatly rejected as raw speculation, which is precisely what they are.
I mean, you don't even know how many seats were on the goddamn buses, even though you claim to have examined them. If you can't even get the TANGIBLE facts straight, how can you argue the theoretical?"
Now, stupid, tell me where in this post (or any other) that I claimed to author a Parent Manual.
You have the ugly combination of being very dim-witted and also a consummate liar.
When you come up with a valid criticism, we will have discourse. Until then, do us all a favor and SHUT THE FUCK UP.
All you do is come in here and try to denigrate people using prevarications so you look less stupid. Newsflash: "It Ain't Working"
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Quite frankly, D., you are very rude. So you dont agree with my comments...so friggin what. I have NEVER called you a name..yes I have said some of your statements were exxagarated or half truths but that is different from calling someone a fucking idiot and dimwitted..your perspective of the school and memories of the school are different than mine..I am no idiot, I just happen to not agree with you and your portrayal of the school. I already told the posters on here I dont know all the facts..but I am reporting on the ones I do know about. But how ARROGANT of you to call me names because you think you know what and who I am. I did say my comments to you because you are misrepresenting your importance when you were there. You did NOT write the policies and procedures manual or employee manual by yourself because I know who had the most influence in those documents and it wasnt YOU, well unless you are a woman, which you are not. You twist statements I make to suit your agenda. You think that everything I type is lies and it is NOT. I have FAR more experience actually being at HLA than you EVER did (7 yrs compared to less than 2). It is true that I was not a counselor and I never claimed to be either so I have always been clear as to my role at the school. There are some facts I dont remember because of the time passing. But I do remember alot. There are some small details I dont remember however and I havent misrepresented myself over those either. If I didnt remember something or dont know about something currently I have stated that.YOu were there less then 2 yrs over 10 yrs ago. Just because someone has a different opinion of the school does not give you the right to call them names, claim that everything I say is a lie (which it is NOT), AND even going so far as to suggest I commit suicide because you dont like what I type???? Thats just bizarre to say the least. Why dont you quit bashing me on a personal level and discuss something constructive like talking about how to improve things and how things can be fixed or changed, and give some info to these parents or see what they want to know. But I have to remind them of something, your persective is from 1994-1995 so they need to take that into consideration. Get off your high horse already and go to anger management or something, you really need it D.
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Juniper like I typed above my experience was from 1994-2001 at the school. I lived on campus on the main road from 1997-2001. I would say that during my time actually residing there (4 yrs), 85% of the runaways left during the day after some sort of confrontation where they became angry and walked out of a meeting or work detail or something. They would generally walk down the school road which is about 1/2 mile to the main road and if they kept on going, walk towards town and most of the time they came back after being talked to by counselors. A few refused and the sheriff's deputy was called, if they were underage to be able to leave. Town is about 9 miles to the square, 7 miles to the gas station where a phone is. During the day its not scary, there are alot of houses along the road and a few businesses. The other percentage that ran away somehow got out during the night and it was a small minority of the overall runaways. Those usually planned it ahead of time and were usually the older boys who did it that way. And overall, during that time period I lived on campus, I would say average runaway attempts were about 2 or 3 every few months. Most turned back or calmed down and were talked back before getting onto the main road though. Not all the kids attempted to run away, but as a teen I would assume alot didnt want to be there and away from their friends and parties and such. And I never personally heard of or saw any child being restrained to prevent them from leaving campus. The sheriff's deputies however, are allowed to touch them once they get off campus. That is what I know about the runaway subject.
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Mrs. Gray, you may say whatever you like. Just don't tell blatant lies about me and expect me not to respond. You say that I SAID I WROTE THE PARENT MANUAL (I re-posted what I said and nowhere does it say that) and used that blatant lie to form some really misguided opinions (your "A B C's" of ignorance).
You just called me a liar. You are wrong and full of shit. Plain and simple.
I personally do not care who you think did what when. I was there, I did my job, and one of my jobs was to write the policy and procedure manual.
As I recall, you were NOT THERE. How can you then come in here and tell me that even though you weren't there, didn't know what was going on and had no insight or access, that I am wrong?
Did you meet twice weekly with Dr. B? No. I did.
Did you meet daily with the headmaster? No. I did.
Were you involved in any way regarding the policies of HLA? No. I was.
Did you intake kids? No. I did.
Did you work with any kids? No. I did.
Did you train staff? No. I did.
So, for someone who has had literally and figuratively, NO EXPERIENCE, you sure shoot off your mouth a lot.
Why don't you get honest with the people here and tell them that you have no basis for making the statements that you make?
In what way does being a part-time secretary qualify you to discuss the efficacy of a residential treatment facility?
You're ignorant to the facts and do not want to be educated to them, so you simply misquote and lie. If and when you can break that habit, we can argue productively, as I do with many others on this board.
I'll be honest with you though. You really don't have the mental capacity to debate me on this subject. Three degrees and a decade of experience lend me understanding that you simply do not have (and apparently wish never to have, based on the fact that you don't even read for comprehension) and will not have any time soon.
How would you feel if I told you how to mop a floor or do laundry or take a memo? Let's face the facts: that's where your experience is, not in treatment modalities.
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On 2005-04-23 12:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Mrs. Gray, you may say whatever you like. Just don't tell blatant lies about me and expect me not to respond. You say that I SAID I WROTE THE PARENT MANUAL (I re-posted what I said and nowhere does it say that) and used that blatant lie to form some really misguided opinions (your "A B C's" of ignorance).
You just called me a liar. You are wrong and full of shit. Plain and simple.
I personally do not care who you think did what when. I was there, I did my job, and one of my jobs was to write the policy and procedure manual.
As I recall, you were NOT THERE. How can you then come in here and tell me that even though you weren't there, didn't know what was going on and had no insight or access, that I am wrong?
Did you meet twice weekly with Dr. B? No. I did.
Did you meet daily with the headmaster? No. I did.
Were you involved in any way regarding the policies of HLA? No. I was.
Did you intake kids? No. I did.
Did you work with any kids? No. I did.
Did you train staff? No. I did.
So, for someone who has had literally and figuratively, NO EXPERIENCE, you sure shoot off your mouth a lot.
Why don't you get honest with the people here and tell them that you have no basis for making the statements that you make?
In what way does being a part-time secretary qualify you to discuss the efficacy of a residential treatment facility?
You're ignorant to the facts and do not want to be educated to them, so you simply misquote and lie. If and when you can break that habit, we can argue productively, as I do with many others on this board.
I'll be honest with you though. You really don't have the mental capacity to debate me on this subject. Three degrees and a decade of experience lend me understanding that you simply do not have (and apparently wish never to have, based on the fact that you don't even read for comprehension) and will not have any time soon.
How would you feel if I told you how to mop a floor or do laundry or take a memo? Let's face the facts: that's where your experience is, not in treatment modalities.
"
Sorry, that post is me...
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What exactly do you know about me? do you know what my line of work is now? NO. Do you know what I did exactly back then? NO. Do you know how often I did speak to Dr. B on a weekly basis? NO. Do you know how often he visited my home? (often) NO. DO you know how often I visited his home? NO Do you know how much I know through my ex husband's many many hours at the school? NO. I was a clerical asst for the school because I had computer and typing skills they needed. My career experience is in banking and I have 21 yrs of it. I mop my own floors and do my own laundry but I am no secretary. And how does having 3 degrees make you any more important? You make yourself sound as if you were the only one doing work at the school back then. Did you stay up all night making sure the dorms had kerosene heaters or firewood when the ice storm hit? Did you miss vacations for years at a time because the school needed you there? Did you go into work at 6:45 am and not get home until after 7 pm every night? I think NOT. You werent the only one working D. IF you will recall, the school only opened with something like 12 kids and only had about 50 or 60 by the time you left. OH yea you worked so hard didnt you. I was there at the school quite a bit, ate there, lived there, heard about issues every single day from my husband, knew Dr. B very well, and just because I was not a counselor does not mean my opinions have no value. But you did not write those manuals by yourself because I know who did and it wasnt you. I see I had to repeat that statement. Dont give these parents the illusion that you were OH SO important at the school because it is a misrepresentation of what your true job role was. That was my point. I did have access, and I did have experiences, but just because I didnt attend every counselor meeting with you doesnt mean my opinion doesnt matter. How condescending of you I mean REALLY. How does continuing to berate me and calling me an idiot solve anything? Makes you feel more important and powerful I guess.....Whatever.
OH and by the way, I am STILL not Mrs. Gray, I am SHH. Try to remember that please.
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On 2005-04-23 12:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What exactly do you know about me? do you know what my line of work is now? NO. Do you know what I did exactly back then? NO. Do you know how often I did speak to Dr. B on a weekly basis? NO. Do you know how often he visited my home? (often) NO. DO you know how often I visited his home? NO Do you know how much I know through my ex husband's many many hours at the school? NO. I was a clerical asst for the school because I had computer and typing skills they needed. My career experience is in banking and I have 21 yrs of it. I mop my own floors and do my own laundry but I am no secretary. And how does having 3 degrees make you any more important? You make yourself sound as if you were the only one doing work at the school back then. Did you stay up all night making sure the dorms had kerosene heaters or firewood when the ice storm hit? Did you miss vacations for years at a time because the school needed you there? Did you go into work at 6:45 am and not get home until after 7 pm every night? I think NOT. You werent the only one working D. IF you will recall, the school only opened with something like 12 kids and only had about 50 or 60 by the time you left. OH yea you worked so hard didnt you. I was there at the school quite a bit, ate there, lived there, heard about issues every single day from my husband, knew Dr. B very well, and just because I was not a counselor does not mean my opinions have no value. But you did not write those manuals by yourself because I know who did and it wasnt you. I see I had to repeat that statement. Dont give these parents the illusion that you were OH SO important at the school because it is a misrepresentation of what your true job role was. That was my point. I did have access, and I did have experiences, but just because I didnt attend every counselor meeting with you doesnt mean my opinion doesnt matter. How condescending of you I mean REALLY. How does continuing to berate me and calling me an idiot solve anything? Makes you feel more important and powerful I guess.....Whatever.
OH and by the way, I am STILL not Mrs. Gray, I am SHH. Try to remember that please. "
Again, you know nothing. EVERY counselor meeting? How about ANY counselor meeting? You never were in even ONE SINGLE MEETING that I was in.
You make yourself sound like you were an "insider" because you had SOCIAL contact with a few employees.
AGAIN, YOU NEVER WORKED WITH ANY KIDS, EVER. How much clearer can it be?
And, no I am not more IMPORTANT than you, just infinitely more qualified to discuss this topic. Infinitely more educated (10 years versus ZERO years) and infinitely more qualified.
Like I said, you may know how to do laundry better than me, but you certainly don't know how to deliver mental health care. What a JOKE that you would even insinuate that.
Go study up for a few years, get a job for a few years THEN come back and we'll talk.
:wave:
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I never claimed to be a counselor did I. And 7 years associated with the school DOES make me an insider, or was one anyway the years I was there. Cant claim to be one now obviously. My ex-husband, and father in law, and mother in law were all employees of the school. Mother and father in law were there from 1995-2001. Ex is still there. Not a counselor no, but a part of the school nonetheless. What we are discussing here is experiences with the school, and opinions. I am not making claims on how to take care of children with mental health issues am I? No.I am stating my opinion and observations. I dont have to have a degree in mental health to discuss the school. Are you going to tell these parents or prospective parents they cant have an opinion either? or the students? I have just as much right to discuss issues on this board as any other person. I never asked you not to post on here but you keep on repeating that I shouldnt post. Sorry, aint happenin' dude. Get used to it.
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This is so typical. SHH, ask your husband about information control at The Seed. The intake coordinator thought she knew what was going on. So did the volunteers who made all those sandwiches for lunch. Of course, the parents thought they knew what was going on, after all, they had these kids living in their homes for many months at a stretch.
But nobody knew it all. There were spoken and unspoken rules about giving away too much information. And, of course, that sappy, halcion smile (shiny face) was requisite. So many people who thought they knew what the hell was going on, and were every bit as indignant as you are when challenged.
Come in the evening, or come in the morning; Come when you 're looked for, or come without warning.
-- Thomas O. Davis (1814-1845): The Welcome.
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Hidden Lake Academy is an excellent school. After reading some of the negative things here I know that the writers are disgruntled rabble-rousers that are simply making things up, in hopes of discouraging those of us who like the school and those of us who have been helped by the fine counseling team and teachers at Hidden Lake. You can read the anger and hostility in their words, I really feel sorry for them and hope one day they get the help they really need. These writers are playin on the fears of families looking for help. I love HLA!
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Really! Why????????????
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Thanks for sharing.
But who is really playing on parents' fears?
I don't speak for anyone but myself when I say that I am here to share my experience, which is every bit as valid as yours, and to have discussion. You, and others are free to make the choice you deem appropriate.
I am not an angry, rabble-rouser, simply making things up. In effect, you have called me (and others) a liar. And that, is what incites the frequent and harsh responses.
I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but that is exactly what happens in HLA and other BM facilities. The teen is told they are a 'liar' and 'need help'. Your shade-tree evaluation is not welcomed, thanks. And at the risk of sounding harsh, I would think that it's the parent who abdicates parental responsibility who 'needs help'.
You do not KNOW that others are lying. You have no way of knowing if peoples' stories are true or not. The truth is, you HOPE they are. Time will tell.
You also don't KNOW what your child is experiencing on a daily basis. To pretend that you do, is a lie. You KNOW what you are told.
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On 2005-04-23 18:59:00, greenarrow wrote:
"After reading some of the negative things here I know that the writers are disgruntled rabble-rousers that are simply making things up, in hopes of discouraging those of us who like the school and those of us who have been helped by the fine counseling team and teachers at Hidden Lake.
Get over yourself already! You're very obviously a lost cause. We're talking to sane people who want to actually think about things before jumping in. And for your kid and other kids who's parents will just never understand. And for the whole body of the netizens of Cyberia who, for whatever reason, just want to know more. And for lawyers and journalists who want to better inform public policy and opinion.
News flash! It's not about YOU!
The most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of
knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness.
--Thomas Jefferson
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On 2005-04-23 13:40:00, SHH wrote:
"I never claimed to be a counselor did I. And 7 years associated with the school DOES make me an insider, or was one anyway the years I was there. Cant claim to be one now obviously. My ex-husband, and father in law, and mother in law were all employees of the school. Mother and father in law were there from 1995-2001. Ex is still there. Not a counselor no, but a part of the school nonetheless. What we are discussing here is experiences with the school, and opinions. I am not making claims on how to take care of children with mental health issues am I? No.I am stating my opinion and observations. I dont have to have a degree in mental health to discuss the school. Are you going to tell these parents or prospective parents they cant have an opinion either? or the students? I have just as much right to discuss issues on this board as any other person. I never asked you not to post on here but you keep on repeating that I shouldnt post. Sorry, aint happenin' dude. Get used to it. "
More useless, bandwidth consuming, ignorant drivel...
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On 2005-04-22 16:35:00, Libra wrote:
"Any positive reinforcement or reward system is so insignificant as to be inconsequential. I don't think it takes B.F.Skinner to see that. "
This statement is pretty well divorced from reality.
Time and time again, it has been shown that positive reinforcement is the best way to achieve lasting change in behavior.
In fact, B.F. Skinner himself HAS documented this phenomenon. Rats that were trained to press a lever (behavior) to recieve food (positive reinforcement) learned the behavior rapidly and continued to exercise the conditioned response (lever press) for long after the reinforcement ceased.
In addition, Skinner also showed the poor conditioning effects of negative reinforcement (i.e. the REMOVAL of an UNPLEASANT STIMULUS upon the performing of the desired behavior). Rats were trained to press a lever to alleviate an electic shock delivered to them in the "Skinner Box." When the electric stimulus was halted by the examiner, so was the conditioned response (lever-pressing).
Now, in the context of BM "schools" like HLA: Children are berated and abused until the desired behavior emerges (i.e. indefinite "restrictions" were lifted upon "conformance.") This is the same as "negative reinforcement" (the removal of an unpleasant stimulus when the desired response is generated). This model is proven ineffective in rats and humans.
Positive reinforcement systems such as a "Token Economy," in which the subject earns "credits" (tokens) for desired behaviors and can later redeem those credits for privileges that they enjoy (a new book, tv time, a game of billiards, etc) are some of the MOST EFFECTIVE forms of shaping behavior. The token economy, coupled with strong "modeling" by adults works best for these kids.
Also, it has been proven incontrovertibly that IGNORING an undesired behavior is the fastest route to EXTINGUISHING it.
So, any intelligent person can see that strong modeling, positive reinforcement and ignoring undesired behaviors is the MOST EFFICIENT and EFFECTIVE treatment modality.
HLA, in contrast, has WEAK MODELING (counselors yelling, screaming, calling names, changing rules to suit their ends, giving drugs/cigs/dip to favored kids, etc.), NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT("punishment" until desired behavior results, which is NOT LASTING, as referenced above), and ATTENDANCE to undesired behavior (confrontation and punishment) which actually REINFORCES the undesired behavior by rewarding the subject with attention.
THEREFORE, it is ineffective at best, DAMAGING at worst.
It doesn't take B.F. Skinner to see that, now does it...?
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Libra will have to confirm this, but I interpreted that comment to say "Any positive reinforcement or reward system [at HLA] is so insignificant as to be inconsequential. I don't think it takes B.F.Skinner to see that."
I think s/he concurs with your opinion/ observation DJ.
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On 2005-04-22 14:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If a child runs off campus, what would you suggest would be the best policy? Let them walk and then call the parents? Let them walk and then call the law? What if they are 14 or 15. What would you suggest the safest way to handle that situation would be? As a parent, I would want to be notified immediately, and the law notified immediately as well to try to find my child.This is clearly not just a "dropping out of school" issue if they live on the campus of a boarding school. I would like some opinion on this subject as to the best scenario for this sort of situation."
I can't comment on what the cuurent "policy" is at HLA regarding runaways.
I can say, however, that when I worked there, we NEVER called the parents. I was told directly by the headmaster NEVER to call the parents unless an injury occurred or the police were involved (we were also instructed not to call police), in which case the "incident" couldn't be hidden.
Basically, there were to be no "outsiders" involved in HLA's business. That's the way they liked it and that's the way they intended it to transpire.
For me, the best way was to just walk with the kid, try to talk to them, and most of all, let them know that I, personally, did not believe in restraint and would never initiate a "physical" with any kid, ever.
In the dozen or so cases of "walk-off's" that I personally dealt with, I was able to get the kid calmed down, opened up and talking and we would simply reverse course and have a "walk-and-talk" back to the campus. I always had the trust of my kids and was able to get them to "do the right thing" through reason, not coercion.
In regard to what SHH said in another post, yes there WERE restraints used to keep kids on campus. I did see that happen a few times with "control freak" staff who were just not going to be defied, even if it meant a "physical." I saw students who were bruised and hurt and completely "shut down" for days afterword. That DID happen, despite the fact that a part-time clerical assistant might not have "seen" it.
A few incidents like the one described above, the fake dgrees, the obvious ignoring of written policies, the lying to parents and students alike, the inappropriateness of staff, the nearly non-existant education provided, and the closed "don't ask, don't tell" demeanor of the executive staff led me to the realization that I could never, in good conscience, stay involved with that place.
That belief has been well reinforced by the absolute horror stories I have heard from kids on this board as well as "my" kids from when I worked there that still write me today to share problems that linger from their HLA experiences.
The best bet is simply not to incarcerate your kid there...
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On 2005-04-24 08:13:00, Deborah wrote:
"
Libra will have to confirm this, but I interpreted that comment to say "Any positive reinforcement or reward system [at HLA] is so insignificant as to be inconsequential. I don't think it takes B.F.Skinner to see that."
I think s/he concurs with your opinion/ observation DJ."
Ohhhhhhh...Ok. Sorry. My fault. I did not mean to "attack" the person (who may actually agree with me), just the (perceived) erroneous behavioral science.
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To elaborate on this topic, I have seen no long term 'independent' studies that prove the efficacy of aggragating 'distressed' children, thousands of miles from home and in isolation from the real world.
I have found numerous professional opinions, research, and anecdotal evidence to the contrary.
Why Programs Don?t Work
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#52579 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5783&forum=9&start=20#52579)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=903&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=903&forum=9)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#61374 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6625&forum=9&start=0#61374)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#53071 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5864&forum=9&start=0#53071)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =300#32242 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3865&forum=9&start=300#32242)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=9&0 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9118&forum=9&0)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#61854 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6675&forum=9&start=0#61854)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#86158 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8565&forum=9&start=0#86158)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#84826 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8471&forum=9&start=0#84826)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#63964 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6868&forum=9&start=0#63964)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#56606 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6211&forum=9&start=0#56606)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#53849 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5950&forum=9&start=0#53849)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#79171 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8025&forum=9&start=0#79171)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2745&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2745&forum=9)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=9&1 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3362&forum=9&1)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#49825 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5516&forum=9&start=20#49825)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#63727 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6851&forum=9&start=10#63727)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#46691 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5277&forum=11&start=0#46691)
http://www.wpic.pitt.edu/aacp/Vol-15-3/Youth.html (http://www.wpic.pitt.edu/aacp/Vol-15-3/Youth.html)
And one of the most revealing from the industry!
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#56579 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6205&forum=9&start=0#56579)
What a parent might do instead:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=40#22188 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3156&forum=9&start=40#22188)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... um=9#23852 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3324&forum=9#23852)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=50#75535 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3216&forum=9&start=50#75535)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#21702 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3123&forum=9&start=10#21702)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#23855 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3323&forum=9&start=0#23855)
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On 2005-04-22 14:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If a child runs off campus, what would you suggest would be the best policy? Let them walk and then call the parents? Let them walk and then call the law? What if they are 14 or 15. What would you suggest the safest way to handle that situation would be? As a parent, I would want to be notified immediately, and the law notified immediately as well to try to find my child.This is clearly not just a "dropping out of school" issue if they live on the campus of a boarding school. I would like some opinion on this subject as to the best scenario for this sort of situation."
Ok, first and foremost, before the kid walks off in the first place, examine what's so bad about the place that so many kids decide to take the risk. And what's the penalty for running away? Is it more-or-less reasonable and in line w/ the "crime" of ducking class to go for a walk? I suspect it's not. Every other Synanon based program that I know about employs a sort of re-initiation to deter escape attempts. Having split twice during my time w/ Straight, I spent many hours weighing the relative risks and benefits of turning myself in.
I once hitchhiked all the way down through Florida (took 4 days) and arrived hungry, tired and just out of steam and ideas. I wanted to talk to my brother and see if he could put me up w/ a friend or something so I could stay out till I came of age in another year and a half or so. I made it as close to home as the back yard of a neighbor at the end of the street, about 4 doors down. I ate a grapefruit, wished desperately that oranges or star fruit had been in season cause the grapefruit really burned my long empty stomach. I hid in the bushes, slept a little but mostly watched the house till nightfall, weighing the risk of getting busted by a neighbor or my dad if I tried going to the house. Eventually, I decided it wasn't worth the risk and turned around and hitchhiked all the way back out of Florida.
I remember a good many other kids having done desperate things to stay out. As far as I know, there's a young man named Wayne who split from BCA (or another CEDU gulag) who was last seen months ago in the San Francisco area. I'm pretty sure his mom and dad have realized their big mistake and would not return him. But I doubt very seriously if the kid would ever believe it if they promised on their dead ancestors' names.
In other words, that jingoistic method of detering escape attempts often backfires and workes as a powerful deterrant to voluntary return.
They know that it is human nature to take up causes whereby a man may oppress his neighbor, no matter how unjustly. ... Hence they have had no trouble in finding men who would preach the damnability and heresy of the new doctrine from the very pulpit.
--Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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Dysfunction Junction,
If you were truly privy to this info from
working with the school, why didn't you turn
them in to the Feds? And, Robert Bruce, did you
or your family sue the school or go to Child Services?
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Yes, most of the research shows that grouping adolescents together in detention, psych hospitals or treatment programs can make them worse-- they learn new maladaptive behaviors. Least restrictive treatment in the community is still the best option. We need real services in the community that these kids can turn to though, and a humane, relevant public educational system.
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Turn WHO in to what FEDS? This doesn't make any sense.
I never saw anything illegal (as far as I know). I did see lots of unethical and immoral things. Those issues I brought directly to the executive staff. As I have said earlier, most, if not all complaints by staff, kids or parents were either poo-pooed or ignored.
Part of the problem with these places, Juniper, is that there are very varied and unclear "rules" for their operation. Often times the states simply ignore the deficiencies and "certify" them anyway, as in the case of another program in Ohio that was recently found in violation of dozens of state laws and regulations, but, inexplicably, was re-certified by the state.
Need I remind you that YOUR CHILD is there right now and you're not acting on what you can surely control yourself? Why aren't you getting your kid and calling the "Feds"?
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Feds, yes we are working on it. First you have
Environmental, ORS, DCFS,and the list goes on...
The point I am trying to make is why wasn't
anything done? Everyone comes on here and complains, shares their experiences, but I'd
like to know if anyone has pursued a law suit
against HLA, turned them in to DCFS, contacted
ORS, ACLU checking Human RIghts Violations,
called State of Georgia DOE with complaints, etc.
If they did what happened? When I call, they have no registered complaints. The "FEDS" do get
involved.For Deborah, RobertBruce and everyone else, http://www.ISACCORP.org (http://www.ISACCORP.org) register your complaints.
They are pro-active in helping shut down the
schools that are violating child safety laws, along with fraud, etc. Please e-mail them
about any school placing children in harms way.
Contact Shelby Earnshaw, http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org).
I understand what you are saying about reading between HLA's words, they try to cover themselves
and apparently do very well. However, right is right, maybe naive, but I believe in the human spirit and abuse is not just physical. Thanks
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On 2005-04-25 06:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
We need real services in the community that these kids can turn to though, and a humane, relevant public educational system.
Can you give an example of a humane and relavent public school system? Cause the one we've got is not that. It's based on the Prussian model; same philosophy that left Germany so ripe for exploitation by the Nazis. Here's a good read on that. http://www.educationreformbooks.net/ (http://www.educationreformbooks.net/)
I think you're working from a couple of faulty premises. First, that kids are disordered and in need of repair and second that the public sector is the answer to everything.
Virtually all kids resist schooling. That's why we have so many layers of rules and traditions to compel attendance. By definition, a kid that doesn't resist that insult is disordered, not the other way around. School failure and truancy are not pathologies needing treatment. If anything, they're signs of character and strength.
I laughed reading about all that is mandated by MA law wrt meeting children's educational needs. The laws of nature trump all regulation and legislation ~ always. There isn't the money to provide these services; there probably isn't the need for special services in most cases and, even if there were, the services don't exist. Great! If that ever works out, maybe we should mandate by law that water run uphill to eleviate flooding. If your kid is bored and distracted in school it only means they're paying attention and properly assessing the situation as boring and not worthy of their attention. It's not the kid who needs to be fixed.
What we need is not more layers of public sector tinkering, but a return to respect for individual sovereignty and voluntary cooperation. Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
--Albert Einstein
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Environmental- Do you mean the Health Dept? If so, I did contact them to inquire if they had given HLA permission for the 'restriction diet'. The headmaster told parents they had approved it, which was blatant lie. It is not within thier scope of services to do so.
ORS- I called ORS when HLA told me that wilderness programs were not required to have a license in Ga. There was an investigation which resulted in RC being licensed. They 'negotiated' with HLA and determined that they were a 'Specialty School' and didn't require them to be licensed. I think they assume that the Accreditation Associations which they are members of, monitor them. It's my understanding that those assoc's monitor the academics, not the health, safety, staff requirements, therapeutic model, students rights, etc.
ORS does not address abuse/neglect.
CPS- In order for CPS to investigate a parent has to be able to say definitely that there is abuse.
They weren't concerned that he was in an unlicensed wilderness program at the time, with staff who did not meet state requirements. I wouldn't discourage anyone from calling even if it's to report suspected abuse. I can't tell you what CPS would consider 'abusive'. So much of it is emotional/psychological, which is hard to prove.
DOE- At the time they weren't listed with the BOE (board of ed). I haven't checked in a while. Okay, I checked and they are not listed.
GAC- They are accredited with GAC as an 'Educational Agency with Special Purpose'. You can read the requirements here:
http://www.coe.uga.edu/gac/standards/educagencies.html (http://www.coe.uga.edu/gac/standards/educagencies.html)
Anyone could certainly file a complaint if they know HLA is in violation. This is academic monitoring- not going to be particularly interested in abuse/neglect.
SACS- They are also accredited with SACS as a 'Secondary Special Purpose School'. You can read the requirements here:
http://www.sacscasi.org/region/standard ... nonpub.pdf (http://www.sacscasi.org/region/standards/special_purpose_stds_nonpub.pdf)
ACLU- Couldn't help. I did work with an HR organization. One of their staff helped me compose letters to certain politicians and government offices. No response - primarily because they were/are considered a private corporation, and as such have significant protection.
TX/Ga Offices of ICPC- HLA and most other programs accept children in violation of this federal law. Tx didn't even know how to interpret the law, therefore defered to Ga. Georgia claimed that HLA was a private boarding school, therefore exempt. This, inspite of all the information I provided to the contrary.
FBI- They will get involved if there is known abuse, and it has to pretty bad.
Lawsuit- It is not wise to discuss this on a public forum. There are several who are interested, have mentioned it. Many parents that have contacted me had hired attorneys to assist them in getting a refund of pre-paid tuition, but planned to just chalk it up as a mistake.
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On 2005-04-25 09:41:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-04-25 06:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
We need real services in the community that these kids can turn to though, and a humane, relevant public educational system.
Can you give an example of a humane and relavent public school system? Cause the one we've got is not that. It's based on the Prussian model; same philosophy that left Germany so ripe for exploitation by the Nazis. Here's a good read on that. http://www.educationreformbooks.net/ (http://www.educationreformbooks.net/)
I think you're working from a couple of faulty premises. First, that kids are disordered and in need of repair and second that the public sector is the answer to everything.
Virtually all kids resist schooling. That's why we have so many layers of rules and traditions to compel attendance. By definition, a kid that doesn't resist that insult is disordered, not the other way around. School failure and truancy are not pathologies needing treatment. If anything, they're signs of character and strength.
I laughed reading about all that is mandated by MA law wrt meeting children's educational needs. The laws of nature trump all regulation and legislation ~ always. There isn't the money to provide these services; there probably isn't the need for special services in most cases and, even if there were, the services don't exist. Great! If that ever works out, maybe we should mandate by law that water run uphill to eleviate flooding. If your kid is bored and distracted in school it only means they're paying attention and properly assessing the situation as boring and not worthy of their attention. It's not the kid who needs to be fixed.
What we need is not more layers of public sector tinkering, but a return to respect for individual sovereignty and voluntary cooperation. Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
--Albert Einstein
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I agree with your source. The irrelevance and Prussian, drone creating industialized school machine IS what needs to be changed. I'm ok with dropping compulsory education laws and mere SEAT TIME requirements. That is 85% of my kid's problem, as it is for many. Kids become "disordered" - rebellious and turned off - from dealing with that crap.....Yet I do believe that some kids do have Bi-Polar Disorder, ADHD, etc., and that we could be a little more accomodating and flexible with them at school instead of criminalizing them. If kids' needs are being met in a respectful manner, there should be no need to call the police.
Getting rid of compulsory education will require public participation on some level. In the meantime, there are civil rights laws that kids and parents can use to protect the kid. If kids must be there, then their needs should be met, and their education appropriate to their stengths and needs and interests.... or we could continue as a society to pack them of to jail, youth detention centers, or therapeutic boarding schools.
I think we agree that one of the roots of this crisis is what kids are forced to do or put up with.
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Do you think it possible to have a standard outlining what childrens' needs are, like no more than X minutes sitting in a classroom.
I don't think they were considering kids needs when most schools eliminated mandatory PE class to squeeze in more academics, which some are recognizing as a mistake.
If a child has an IEP/ARD the district is required to provide their 'needs'. And here's how that can go:
My sister knew her son needed special accomodations- a quieter space to work and test. She bit the bullet and got him dx (ADHD) and drugged in order for his 'needs' to be met. He'd been on the drug for a while, only during the week, and had so many side effects that she took him off of it. Didn't mention this to the school, and no complaints from them.
At a recent ARD meeting they told her that they no longer saw symptoms of ADHD and that he would no longer receive special accomodations. They suggested that his 'problems' were 'behavioral' and he would benefit from being mainstreamed.
The psychologist (not psychiatrist) disagreed- he saw symptoms of ADHD and depression- and told her she needed to put him back on meds. She asked if he'd accompany her to the next ARD meeting and present his professional opinion in order that her son may retain special accomodations- where he was doing very well, btw.
He said he couldn't, he would have to defer to the teachers observations and the ARD's decision.
She went to the principal with her complaint. He agreed with her and overrode the ARD decision.
He is not taking the drugs, and is doing well.
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On 2005-04-25 11:39:00, Deborah wrote:
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Do you think it possible to have a standard outlining what childrens' needs are, like no more than X minutes sitting in a classroom.
I don't think they were considering kids needs when most schools eliminated mandatory PE class to squeeze in more academics, which some are recognizing as a mistake.
No, I don't really think you can set such a standard for all kids. Really, I dont' think you could set such a standard for one individual kid. Human beings, like most other creatures on this planet, are seasonal creatures. Some of us are thrilled to till a garden in the spring, but happy to quit that and move on to something else pretty shortly. When I was a kid I went through various phases. Sometimes, I couldn't force myself to do one more page of stupid repetative schoolwork (busy work) but, instead, wanted to talk and play and have fun. Other times I'd cloister myself w/ my books or binge on guitar or piano practice or biking or tinkering w/ various mad science projects w/ my dad or thinking of ways to turn a buck.
I have a deep seated envy of cultures that make play of work. I used to work for a small family restaurant. Every day, the dough had to be made. And that is boring work! But every day, the work was just a sideline to the event. It was a time for all of us to sit in the back, swap stories and jokes and such. Sometimes, it was about family business, in which case I'd be banished to the front to clean something or slice meats or some other necessary work.
It was just all so perfectly natural and pleasant; work and life and play running together and being indistinguishable from each other.
If a child has an IEP/ARD the district is required to provide their 'needs'. And here's how that can go:
...
I think your sister found a way to game the system to the benefit of her son. Good for her! But I don't think that's the ideal situation. I think the ideal situation would be to shut down the DOE and the entire public school system and quit taxing for them and let people seek their own education based on their own values and priorities.
Now, that said, the troubled parent pawns itself off as just what I've described. But they don't really provide. Just because it's not the public school system w/ their host of shrinks and pill pushers doesn't mean it's better in any way.
I think what we need is a epidemic of incredulity. Humans and other creatures have been bearing and rearing young on this planet for millions of years w/o any sort of professional assistance. It's the most natural thing in the world. Much of it comes pretty nearly automatically through instinct IF you give your own instinct and common sense precedence over dictates from on high.
That's all marijuana is, after all. It's just a plant, a common and easily grown one at that. In many cultures, its consumption was lawful for millennia. And in all that time, the bond between thugs, mayhem, murder and marijuana that we see today did not exist.
Dan Gardner, CanWest News Service
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Ditto... I totally agree.
and in the interim? Until parents catch on, and or public policy is changed?
I don't think best case is going to happen anytime soon, and if we are to continue having public education, it SHOULD consider kids' REAL needs.
I can see a possible scenerio, that public schools are subjected to so many regulations and limitations that the only reasonable conclusion would be that they indeed CAN'T provide childrens' needs.
There is no reason that a child can't do basically what you described in a group scenerio. My kids did. In Montessori. They loved going to school. Never complained until they went to public school, with ridiculous rules, excessive homework, stressful TAKS tests, no social time, have to ask permission to go to the restroom and may be denied, etc.
I don't know the politics, but what's the opposition to Montessori. I know some progressive schools that have implemented some of the philosophy, why not all, and why not all schools?
Seems that anything useful and proven to be beneficial has been rejected. Why not phonics???
It does make one wonder if schools aren't really bm/conditioning warehouses themselves.
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On 2005-04-25 13:41:00, Deborah wrote:
It does make one wonder if schools aren't really bm/conditioning warehouses themselves.
I used to wonder. Now I'm convinced of it.For myself, I do not believe in any revelation. As for a future life, every man must judge for himself between conflicting vague probabilities.
--Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist
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Deborah,
Evironmental - Yes, health department. The fields
are contaminated with goose feces. They need to be cleaned up and not by the children. It is a walking respitory health hazard. However, since
the owner does not have to work in it, sit in it,
do push ups in it, etc., obviously nothing has been done. I'd like to deposit it in his home
for a bit and see how he likes it at 60,000.+
a year. I feel bad because obviously you have been around the block with everyone and hit dead ends. But, it is the old saying, if you cannot
get them one way with the truth, there is always
another way with the truth. ie. FOLLOW THE
MONEY TRAIL... As with the Ed Con's, it works.
E-mail those people, please help us. Thanks
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I'm sure it seemed like the idea place for the fields, but it was design error, given that the geese are probably permanent. I'd sure hate to see them harmed in anyway for the convenience of humans.
Send me a PM and let me know how I can help 'ya'll'.
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Deborah,
Geese are not harmed. They clean it up and
use scare-crow like structures. For some crazy reason, they stay away.
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The fields have been there since the 60's at least...they were not constructed by HLA. The lake has been there that long also. Also not constructed by HLA. The geese have been using the lake as a temporary home since then. If scarecrows work maybe it would be a good suggestion. But the health risks of geese and respiratory issues have been debated for a very long time. I did a search and found at least 20 sites disputing the health risk issue. A few going the other way too. I suppose it would depend on the quantity of geese, the time of year, and how long you actually spent close to the ground.
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Doesn't matter when or who constructed it- it was a design error.
SHH, any poop is going to have potentially harmful pathogens. That's why gardeners compost it before using it on their garden. There is no way to get around it- it's not sanitary. If your exposure is minimal and you practice good hygiene= hand washing, not tracking it into living/work areas, etc, you might be okay.
Would you allow your kids to play there and roll around in it? I wouldn't.
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Shh, once again, I was just at the school and the fields are not fit for animals let alone children. It is truly disgusting! Trust me. If they have closed down town ball fields and school
gym fields( Health Departments)there is a risk.
Believe me, Environmental would not waste the money or their time. When they are alerted,
they usually are there within a day. They take their samples and BOOM! But, you know what,
it is cleaned up, or closed down for good.
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The field that had the geese for the most part was the one by the tennis court and the gazebo...have the geese now moved down to the lower fields? The lower fields did not use to have that many geese except right next to the lake and the wetland area.
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All over.... droppings everywhere. As I said in an earlier post,
a family could not walk their puppy there, it was
so gross. The point is, it needs to be cleaned up. Geese like water, so naturally they will migrate to it and that means the lake, then any surroundings. All we
had at one school was a stream in front of it,
down by the road. The enire field was shut down -
no sports for one month. and, that was just a stream that brought them in by the hundreds. So,
one can imagine what the lake brings.
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Deborah,
'Til I can PM, please just send them an e-mail
with your story, as long as you can back it up.
That would be a great help. Many thanks.
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Those geese dont live there year round...they are migratory and spend a few months there from what I remember. And every time it rains it washes the geese droppings into the dirt or down the hills. Sounds like you were there during their migration time and yes its gross at times but not like that all year or all the time.
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Mrs. Grey AGAIN you discuss things you know nothing about. Maybe just maybe and Im sure this is just crazy talk, but maybe the kids who were forced to go down to that field every day would have a better idea of what its like, over you who stayed at the completely opposite end of campus and had little to no interaction with the students or even the campus for that matter.
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Robert I was on campus EVERY SINGLE day during the week delivering mail to the office. I went to the lake almost every weekend with the kids. I took the kids to the stream to play every summer about once every 2 weeks. I was on campus and not just at my house which was next to the townhouses. I also lived on campus twice as long as you. I do believe I was on campus frequently enough to witness the geese and the fields. Whether you think so or not is irrelevent. I also was at my mother and father in laws house which was right across from the boy's dorm and I was there probably every 3 or 4 days and the weekends. OH NO I had no contact with the campus at all. Yea RIGHT. Remember Robert, I lived there 4 years. Did you? No, you didnt.
[ This Message was edited by: SHH on 2005-04-26 10:43 ]
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Hello????????? the rainwashes it down? It spreads it, into the ground. The moisture from the ground, grows more bacteria, it festers. Themoisture from the rain feeds it.
That's why they have to clean it up.
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The rain dilutes the concentration Juniper, it washes it into the ground. And it rains alot up there. North Georgia gets rainfall so often that it comes in second to the pacific northwest which is the wettest area of the country. I dont know what area of the country you reside in so I dont know how often it would rain in your area to dilute the fields. It is no different from any other field in the country. Birds, dogs, cats, wild animals, etc all use rural fields. The rain doesnt increase the bacteria, it dilutes it. Once again, the issue of whether or not geese pose a health hazard has been debated for years. There is no hard evidence. If you knew of a school that shut down a field it was probably as a precaution to ease parents minds, not due to a real hazard. I found at least 7 websites right off the bat that stated there is no proven health risk. Even when bacteria is present in areas, there is debate on whether or not it actually can cause harm to humans. But go ahead and petition to get the geese removed if they can, it might take awhile for the geese to leave though because they have been visiting that lake for years. Suggest the scarecrow idea.
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http://www.canadageese.org (http://www.canadageese.org)
http://www.all-creatures.org/cash/cc99- ... geese.html (http://www.all-creatures.org/cash/cc99-2000-fawi-geese.html)
http://www.hsus2.org/sheltering/magazin ... icle2.html (http://www.hsus2.org/sheltering/magazine/currentissue/nov_dec01/feature2_article2.html)
http://www.washingtonfreepress.org/51/PublicHealth.htm (http://www.washingtonfreepress.org/51/PublicHealth.htm)
These are a few of the ones I found, and there are those sites that show the other opinion also so its been a debate for years. But there appears to be no real hard evidence showing that walking in a field with geese will make one sick.
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Mrs. Grey you are beyond dumb. I'll tell you what though, lets test your little theory about no ill health effects. Lets allow dozens of geese to come by and crap on your lawn, we'll do this for a couple of years consecutivly and then force your children to go play in it every day for two years straight. I wonder if they'll have any problems?
Oh and again you give yourself far to much credit. You and Fat Bill had zero interaction with the students or the campus beyond his office. You never spent time with any of the students, I met you all of once and that was the only time I ever saw you. Ive asked numerous other former students if they remember you, none of them do, because you were never around. In fact many of them were surprised Fat Bill was even married. Why is that Mrs. Grey? Maybe we were all just to stoned to ever notice you.
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Well seeing as how we lived on campus, we were married for almost 7 yrs, had 3 children on campus, visited my mother and father in law every 3 or 4 days on campus, and I went to Bill's office to deliver the mail every day during the week, ate in the cafeteria at every thanksgiving and several times a month, I doubt seriously your claim that ANYBODY didnt know Bill was married or knew who I was. Was I invisible? I dont think so. I also used the copier in the admin building every time I sent out report cards. Maybe they didnt know my name, but they sure as hell saw me because every time I was out in the yard, or on campus, or down by the lake, I saw students. Was I invisible then? NO I dont think so. What about he bonfire at Halloween that was my idea, I attended that. What about the fireworks the first 4th of July. I attended that. Maybe the people you happen to speak to just didnt pay attention. But if I was up there and lived there they KNEW he was married...DUH. His kids visited the office at least once a week. IF anybody thought Bill wasn't married they were living in the clouds or something.
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"Walking in a field" with geese probably wouldn't present a serious concern. And was not the issue. Another mute argument.
Sitting on it, doing push-ups in it, playing any kind of ball game in it, tracking it into buildings, would significantly increase the risk.
Is goose poop totally free of harmful pathogens? Say a kid was playing tennis or football and the poop got on the ball and therefore on their hands. And then that kid neglected to wash their hands.
If I lived near a situation like that I'd have my kids play elsewhere and they certainly wouldn't wear their shoes into the house if they'd been tromping around in it. They'd change clothes if they sat in it.
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Thanks Deborah, that's exactly what I meant and I agree wholeheartedly with DJ.
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On 2005-04-27 10:19:00, Libra wrote:
"Thanks Deborah, that's exactly what I meant and I agree wholeheartedly with DJ."
Sorry for the misunderstanding. Deborah is a great listener, eh?
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This is so exasperating. TO SHH: IT HAS TO BE CLEANED UP, DEAR GOD WOMEN WHAT' is' WRONG WITH YOU! WHO ON EARTH WOULD WANT TO EVEN STAND IN
IT! YOU ARE HOPELESS. It is useless. I quit.
To DEborah- Here.here! :smile:
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On 2005-04-27 11:54:00, juniper wrote:
"This is so exasperating. TO SHH: IT HAS TO BE CLEANED UP, DEAR GOD WOMEN WHAT' is' WRONG WITH YOU! WHO ON EARTH WOULD WANT TO EVEN STAND IN
IT! YOU ARE HOPELESS. It is useless. I quit.
To DEborah- Here.here! :smile: "
Welcome to the SHH support group, Juniper.
Step one is to admit that you are powerless over SHH...
Anyway, welcome to the club. Dealing with this lady is impossible, believe me. She is soooooo full of shit that her eyes are brown.
She makes all types of outrageous statements that fly in the face of reality. When you confront her logically, she'll just say that she has the right to post her opinion whether you like it or not, but she will NEVER answer your pointed, specific questions because SHE CAN'T.
Best advice is to point out her lies, refute with facts and ignore the rest of her drivel.
Like I've said before, she's drinking the HLA-flavored Kool-Aid with a Krazy Straw...
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To D.J. You are too funny!
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Fireworks? Bonfires? Mrs. Grey you seem to be under the impression that things that transpired the first year when there were all of 15 kids were a permanent fixture. Perhaps they were at that point trying to project some sort of summer camp image, but once they started making a profit there was no longer a need to keep up the sham. You were never around us Mrs. Grey, you forget I was there, none of the people Ive spoken to you, know you or remember you. Many are anxious to come on here and chat it up with you In any event, give it up if you were around so much and so often why did I only meet you a single time? Explain this to me, and back up your idle threats, for once.
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Robert the bonfire was NOT the first year, the fireworks I was wrong about it being the first year in my previous post today because I remember now that my son was sitting in the back of an employee's truck watching them and that would have been either 1997 or 1998 because my son was about 2. The fireworks were held down by the lake next to the gazebo. And the bonfire was after I moved up to the school and would have been either Halloween 1998 or 1999 I think. And I did talk to students at different times during functions and in the cafeteria. I remember Brian, and Devon(a girl), and Sarah, dont remember their last names, but they chatted with my mother in law often in the kitchen and myself when I was in there, and Bill knew Devon a little better than I did. And I remember trying to make friends with the young black man(dont remember his name right now) who later got in trouble and walked off campus because he was angry and I talked to him and tried to get him to calm down (he was walking right in front of my house at that particular moment) Quit twisting my damn words around Robert and misinterpret into whatever crap you want to think. I lived on campus twice as long as you you seem to forget that small point. You know what? on second thought..do whatever the heck you want....you dont deserve any more responses from me, you continue to disrespect me by calling me Mrs Gray (which is NOT me), call me bitch, retard, and dumb, slut, etc...when I have NEVER ONCE called you a name and basically act like only YOU and others who feel like you do have the right to type on here..whatever Robert. You obviously need to grow up a little bit. Arguing with you just isn't worth my valuable time anymore. It's getting boring. That's the beauty of the internet...when you get bored...you can TURN IT OFF!! LOL
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Bonfires??? Gee, our children weren't allowed to stay up 'til midnight on New years Eve..
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On 2005-04-27 15:54:00, SHH wrote:
"Robert the bonfire was NOT the first year, the fireworks I was wrong about it being the first year in my previous post today because I remember now that my son was sitting in the back of an employee's truck watching them and that would have been either 1997 or 1998 because my son was about 2. The fireworks were held down by the lake next to the gazebo. And the bonfire was after I moved up to the school and would have been either Halloween 1998 or 1999 I think. And I did talk to students at different times during functions and in the cafeteria. I remember Brian, and Devon(a girl), and Sarah, dont remember their last names, but they chatted with my mother in law often in the kitchen and myself when I was in there, and Bill knew Devon a little better than I did. And I remember trying to make friends with the young black man(dont remember his name right now) who later got in trouble and walked off campus because he was angry and I talked to him and tried to get him to calm down (he was walking right in front of my house at that particular moment) Quit twisting my damn words around Robert and misinterpret into whatever crap you want to think. I lived on campus twice as long as you you seem to forget that small point. You know what? on second thought..do whatever the heck you want....you dont deserve any more responses from me, you continue to disrespect me by calling me Mrs Gray (which is NOT me), call me bitch, retard, and dumb, slut, etc...when I have NEVER ONCE called you a name and basically act like only YOU and others who feel like you do have the right to type on here..whatever Robert. You obviously need to grow up a little bit. Arguing with you just isn't worth my valuable time anymore. It's getting boring. That's the beauty of the internet...when you get bored...you can TURN IT OFF!! LOL"
Now, some more BS AND some revealing truths, too...
So, SHH, now you say you moved to campus in 1998, huh? Before, you were leading people to believe you had some kind of knowledge about me, or more specifically, my job function.
Well, in REALITY, I lived on campus in 1995. You did not. In fact, I've never met or seen you EVER. But, somehow, you like to tell people on this board that you know what my job was, including the minutiae of what PROJECTS I was assigned to.
Hmmm... Sounds like someone has soiled their pants again, due to the fact that they talk out of their ass.
If you're gonna LIE, you'd better at least have a GOOD MEMORY!
Just admit it, you don't know shit from shinola...
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I said the bonfire was 98 possibly...not that I moved there in 98. I moved on campus in April, 1997 to be precise. Before that I lived in Cumming. And I visited the school often on the weekends between 1994-1997 because my inlaws lived on campus starting in January 1995. I probably did not meet you personally because of you being not on campus on weekends, however, I do know the person who wrote the policies and procedures manual and since it was a woman it could not have been you now could it. That is how I know you are portraying your importance of your tasks assigned to be larger than they were. And since you say you never met me, how could you have made that claim a month ago that I was nothing to look at huh? Guess you can't say that since you claim to have never met me now huh. And since we are on the subject of your job, how professional is it of a counselor with 3 degrees to suggest that I commit suicide because you don't like to read my posts or dont think they are believable or valid????? Yea, D. you are REAL professional alright. WHATEVER.
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On 2005-04-28 09:30:00, SHH wrote:
"I said the bonfire was 98 possibly...not that I moved there in 98. I moved on campus in April, 1997 to be precise. Before that I lived in Cumming. And I visited the school often on the weekends between 1994-1997 because my inlaws lived on campus starting in January 1995. I probably did not meet you personally because of you being not on campus on weekends, however, I do know the person who wrote the policies and procedures manual and since it was a woman it could not have been you now could it. That is how I know you are portraying your importance of your tasks assigned to be larger than they were. And since you say you never met me, how could you have made that claim a month ago that I was nothing to look at huh? Guess you can't say that since you claim to have never met me now huh. And since we are on the subject of your job, how professional is it of a counselor with 3 degrees to suggest that I commit suicide because you don't like to read my posts or dont think they are believable or valid????? Yea, D. you are REAL professional alright. WHATEVER. "
OK, 1997 instead of 1998. So, you DIDN'T live there, did you? I was there BEFORE you ever got there. And, yes, I DID stay on weekends, as I was doing the overnights in the dorms due to a short staff. I also LIVED ON CAMPUS seven days a week. Wouldn't you KNOW that if you were really there? You were NOT there when I was there at all. So, again, you are proven to be a complete liar.
You mean you don't know when "THE BONFIRE" (your pet project, as you posted earlier)was? Even though you claim to have been the one who thought it up and pushed it through? But you don't know WHEN?
Awful strange that events you say you initiated slip your recollection, but yet you can have crystal clear recall of my job function that was three years before you ever arrived? Please, not everyone is that dumb.
Also, how can you purport to know hwo wrote a manual THREE YEARS before you ever worked there? Hmmm.... another head-scratcher.
A woman? No. Not true. I know exactly who you're talking about, because she was my partner (also a cokehead and busted for it), but she did not do the writing.
In fact, I was given the project because of previous experience in technical writing and the "woman" to whom you refer gladly admitted back then that she was a terrible writer and could not have done the job and that it was due to my authorship that the manual was approved for use. Of course, there would be no way for you to know this because your involvement started three years after the fact.
I DID see your picture in Bill's office and yes, you are not much to look at. That's true.
It's funny how you prattle on about how you spent sooooooooo much time on campus, but I certainly never saw you there in 1994 or 1995 and students that attended HLA during the time you CLAIM to have worked there never saw you either.
It seems to me that it is entirely possible that you never even worked there at all. Nobody seems able to corroborate anything you say. Maybe it's ALL bullshit...?
SHH the consummate Bunk-o artist.
By the way, I'm not here in any professional capacity, so I do stand by my assertion that you should save everyone else the pain and off yourself.
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Mrs. Grey again you seem to think youre testimony about the school holds some credibility. We've shown time and time again that you have no such credibility. Think about it terms like this, the family members of guards and staff used to live on Alcatraz. Now even though they lived on the same island, they would in no way be capable of testifying about the conditions of living in the prison would they? I mean even you with your simplistic mind can understand that cant you? Its the same thing, those people cant discuss the prison they werent inmates in, anymore than you can discuss being a student at a school that you never attended. Furthermore by your own addmissions you never observed the biggest part of the students life. So how then would you truly know what our day to day lives were like? The fact is that you cant, why are you unwilling to accept this? Its beyond obvious to everyone else.
Now as to your claims of fireworks and bonfires, again you forget I did actually attend the school there. At no point while I was there, nor at any time that the people I have spoken with did any of these things ever actually happen. As to twisting your words around, Ive done no such thing, you are just incapable of understanding all the big words people are using, and are simply becoming frustrated by the whole thing.
Im wondering though since you claimed hundreds of students graduate a year, and you did as you said live there for seven years, why was it you only knew three kids? I mean I would think since you claim you were with the kids so often coming with new and exciting things for us to do all the time, eating with us in the cafeteria, spending all those many holidays with us, you would know numerous kids. The fact is you dont know any of us now because you didnt know any of us then.
Oh and for the record you calling me a liar seems to against your "i never called you anything" song and dance. Oh and again you expect people to extend to you a courtesy you were never willing to show others. You claim your entitled to share your opinion and experiences, and no one has the right to discount them, yet that was all you did when you first came on here. Get used to it.
Oh and Im STILL waiting for you to back up any of your idle threats.
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Dysfunction I happen to know who wrote the manual because I remember them (admin people) discussing it back then. You forget they had meetings in my house occasionally and I attended the functions where they discussed work alot. And I was on campus almost every weekend back in those years you lived there but I didnt work there then. I worked there from 1997-1998. I believe it was October 1997-September 1998. I worked under Rusty Ray and did the progress reports and report cards on my home computer. If you dont believe me call someone up at the school and ask them. I worked there whether the FEW people you talked to remember it or not. I have w-2's do you need copies of those? And I dont remember the exact year of the bonfire because I lived up there for 4 halloweens and dont precisely remember the year but it was either the 2nd halloween or 3rd halloween (98 or 99) and yes it was MY idea call Dr. B and ask him. I remember it vividly because a tree caught on fire briefly due to the wind picking up an ember. The bonfire was held in the field to the left of the road that went across the creek(lower left field). They roasted marshmallows also. I dont know why you insist on thinking I am lying...I was there at the bonfire D. you were NOT. Oh, and D.....Bill never had a picture of me in his office....only the children..I dont like being photographed....so NO you never saw a photo of me....Who's LYING D?? Because it AINT me.
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You miss the point, SHH. I don't think RB is trying to say you didn't work there. Just that they treated you like a mushroom. You seem to think you know all about what went on there, but you don't.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
-- Aristotle
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On 2005-04-28 14:40:00, SHH wrote:
"Dysfunction I happen to know who wrote the manual because I remember them (admin people) discussing it back then. You forget they had meetings in my house occasionally and I attended the functions where they discussed work alot. And I was on campus almost every weekend back in those years you lived there but I didnt work there then. I worked there from 1997-1998. I believe it was October 1997-September 1998. I worked under Rusty Ray and did the progress reports and report cards on my home computer. If you dont believe me call someone up at the school and ask them. I worked there whether the FEW people you talked to remember it or not. I have w-2's do you need copies of those? And I dont remember the exact year of the bonfire because I lived up there for 4 halloweens and dont precisely remember the year but it was either the 2nd halloween or 3rd halloween (98 or 99) and yes it was MY idea call Dr. B and ask him. I remember it vividly because a tree caught on fire briefly due to the wind picking up an ember. The bonfire was held in the field to the left of the road that went across the creek(lower left field). They roasted marshmallows also. I dont know why you insist on thinking I am lying...I was there at the bonfire D. you were NOT. Oh, and D.....Bill never had a picture of me in his office....only the children..I dont like being photographed....so NO you never saw a photo of me....Who's LYING D?? Because it AINT me."
Just saying that you can remember my job function from 3 years before you were ever on campus, but can't remember your own party that you made a big deal about planning. That's all. Take it for what it's worth.
Well, if it wasn't you, then it was someone else who looked like a cross between a bullfrog and a fat Mexican (no offense intended toward any amphibians or our neighbors from the south).
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LMAO I have no friggin clue who you think you saw a picture of....Bill had no pictures of me, his mother, or his sisters in his office...and I am not fat or Mexican, or an amphibian for that matter LOL So ...you musta been dreaming of some long lost sweetie or something. :rofl:
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Which one of us was she talking to? In a rage she jumps from topic to topic and calls everyone D.
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Well who else would be D? DUH....I call Deborah Deborah...your name doesnt begin with D...neither does Juniper, or Antigen, or Libra....hmmmm who else would it be? GEE that leaves D for Dysfunctional
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SHH writes:
I just wanted to set the record straight on that. And by the way, I am hispanic. I have experienced bigotry in Atlanta even when I lived there. But personally didnt have a problem the 5 1/2 yrs I lived in Dahlonega. Sorry you felt uncomfortable.
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Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#95931 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8823&forum=41&start=20#95931)
Puerto Rican? Cuban?
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Cuban-American
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On 2005-04-28 16:45:00, SHH wrote:
"LMAO I have no friggin clue who you think you saw a picture of....Bill had no pictures of me, his mother, or his sisters in his office...and I am not fat or Mexican, or an amphibian for that matter LOL So ...you musta been dreaming of some long lost sweetie or something. :rofl: "
Maybe it was Bill's girlfriend then. I dunno. But there definitely was a picture of a woman who looked like a fat Mexican bullfrog in his office. I remember thinking "Bill's no prize, but he could do better than THIS."
Didn't have any "long lost sweeties" down in Georgia. The female HLA staffers provided ample "extracurricular" activity...
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Well since I dont look like a stereotypical Mexican (one of Indian descent)nor do I look "hispanic" necessarily, nor am I overweight, and Bill and I were already married, you must have seen a picture of someone in somebody Else's office..do you even remember where Bill's office was? I bet not. I bet you are thinking of someone else's wife in a picture. You dont even have a clue what I look like obviously, from your comments. You probably dont even know if Im blonde, redhead or brunette![ This Message was edited by: SHH on 2005-04-29 09:42 ]
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On 2005-04-29 09:32:00, SHH wrote:
"Well since I dont look like a stereotypical Mexican (one of Indian descent)nor do I look "hispanic" necessarily, nor am I overweight, and Bill and I were already married, you must have seen a picture of someone in somebody Else's office..do you even remember where Bill's office was? I bet not. I bet you are thinking of someone else's wife in a picture. You dont even have a clue what I look like obviously, from your comments. You probably dont even know if Im blonde, redhead or brunette![ This Message was edited by: SHH on 2005-04-29 09:42 ]"
Yeah, Bill's office was in the back corner of the Admin bldg (used to be the "school" as well) next to the back door and it was so small he had to cram his fat ass in there next to the bullfrog mug shot.
You seem to forget, I ACTUALLY WORKED THERE.
:wave:
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There was no picture D. None....I dont like having my picture taken and in fact the ONLY picture I ever took with anybody in those days was with the kids and it was AFTER you left, and he never took that picture to the office because it was at the house only. Once again..youre fantasizing. He never even had pictures of the kids in that particular office, much less family members or me. Once again...youre making stuff up.
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"You probably dont even know if Im blonde, redhead or brunette!"
It's tough to say that about anyone these days...
The real question here is: "Do the drapes match the carpet?"
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On 2005-04-29 10:20:00, SHH wrote:
"There was no picture D. None....I dont like having my picture taken and in fact the ONLY picture I ever took with anybody in those days was with the kids and it was AFTER you left, and he never took that picture to the office because it was at the house only. Once again..youre fantasizing. He never even had pictures of the kids in that particular office, much less family members or me. Once again...youre making stuff up. "
Wait...Before it was I didn't even know where the office was. Am I right? Did I know where it was? Of course I did, silly. I worked in that building every day.
I will take your word for it though if you say your mugshot wasn't in there. There definitely WERE pictures though, one of which did appear to be a Mexican-bullfrog hybrid.
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You are only partially correct D. He only had the corner office for 3 months....he had 2 other offices while you were there. And there were NEVER pictures of any family members in his office back then...especially in the short 3 months he was in that one....He didnt have pictures of the kids in his office until after 1999 or so..and NEVER had a picture of me anywhere on campus. So you still have no clue what you are talking about...there were NO pictures you would have seen of me. You must have dreamed it up.
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Mrs. Grey you continue to want to focus on issues that have no bearing on the atrocities of HLA, i.e. your claim that you know who I am( you dont youve shown that to be true by believing I live in the same state I did as a student at HLA) or your claims that your fatass husband never had any pictures of you. Perhaps the reason being your simply to disgusting for him to want to look at and be reminded of every day. I mean if I had to come home to you every night I dont think I would want to be reminded of you at work either. Espically if I was Fat Bill, I wouldnt want anything to distract from abusing children and lying to parents, espically your ugly ass.
But again I digress, lets focus on the real issues. You claimed I was lying about HLA being improperly licesned, but as of yet you have not been willing to call up ORS. Why is that? Furthermore why do you think HLA would remain improperly licensed for so long? Also Im wondering do you believe that HLA is behaving ethically when it diganosis each of its students with Oppositional Defiant Diorder without ever having actually having a clinical psychologist or psychatrist preform such an evaluation? Do you believe its healthy for students to be forced to betray each other or to be punished indefinitly? Do you think rationing food is an acceptable punishment? What about the using of students as a form of slave labor? Now I recognize that you are a coward and a hypocritical blowhard and you wont be able to actually respond to most if not all of these questions but I can still ask them.
As a first step in your progress, perhaps you should accept the fact that you were incorrect in your guess as to my identity. This would show real progress on your part. As I said before you believe I live in the same state I did while attending HLA, since this is untrue you obviously dont have a clue who I am. Oh and I found what you believed to be the clue as to my location, apparently that person is as dumb as you are. I dont live anywhere close to that state. Accept it and admitt it, it will help in your recovery, with your disease we decided you have.
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I think she was trying to say that Dysfunction Junction was lying about knowing what she looked like because there were no photographs that he could have seen.
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You forget something Dysfunction and Robert...you forget I lived on campus twice as long as both of you...I was associated with the school for 7 years..Robert you were there less then 2 yrs..same goes for Dysfunction...and D you were there 10 yrs ago. Yes I do know WHO you are Robert... I dont want to post your name because that is my choice...and Dysfunction if I dont know about the school back then how come I know about the big mac incident that got you in so much hot water?? And you claim no students ever remember bonfires but there were actually 3 of them...only the first one was my idea. Maybe no students you talked to went in those particular years. NO D. you dont know what I look like...never seen a picture of me, but I have met you you just dont remember it apparently. I never claimed to know everything about the school..but I do know what I personally experienced and I do know what was going on while I was there.
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MRS. GREY I do so love how easily predictable you are. Not only do you refuse to accept the fact that livng on the property in now way gives bearing to your testimony about what the day to day life was like for the students for the very simple and very obvious reason that you were not a student there. What is it about this you arent comprehending. I mean honestly MRS GREY you yourself admitted you had no knowledge nor expereinces with us in our counseling sessions, classes, dorms, or restrictions/work assingments. You claim that you ate with us in the cafeteria regurally and spent time with us at the lake on the weekends, yet as this has been shown, you arent telling the truth on this, you spent almost zero time with any of us, a point which you yourself reinforced by showing that after what four years you only knew the names of three students.
I wonder did you read my analogy about the families living on Alcatraz? Im sure you did but as you realized it made sense and contridicted your stupid nonsensical rationalizations you have ignored it. You know nothing about the school because you had nothing to do with the day to day life of it. Dont pretend otherwise MRS. GREY. It makes no difference whether you were there for four years or forty years, you simply were not involved and were not considered important enough to share any operational knowledge with. You never bothered to spend time with any of us, and you were never around us enough to bother to pick up on what was really going on. Oh and again as to your stupid bonfires, if they were such a mainstay why is no one of the dozens (and no that is by no means an exageration, emphasis on the plural part of dozens) of people Ive spoken with about it remember it? Explain that to me MRS GREY. Oh and your statement "and I do know what was going on while I was there. "
..........
why in the hell would you post something so assinine? Need we rehash just a few of the many many erroneous comments youve made in the last month or two which clearly show you had not a fucking clue as to what was going on while you were there. Oh forgive me, perhaps you did, in which you case you are a fucking liar, and will certianlly burn in hell.
Back to your predicatability though, I listed off a number of larger issues concerning HLA, predict you wont want to respond to any of them, and low and behold you dont respond to a single one! How wonderfull. Again just announcing to the entire board what a hypocritical coward you are. Unable to respond to any real issues or back up a single one of your stupid claims, and only willing to discuss pointless issues which have no merit. I mean just look at youself I asked you about what four or ive issues and you respond to how many of them? Zero. Instead you want to still piss and moan insisting that you know me, MRS GREY you dont you can keep claiming that but again lets examine the facts: You claimed you knew what time period I spent at HLA, yet later you told Juniper you had no idea when I attended HLA. Explain the discrepancy. You also stated you pieced together who I was from information I had given you. MRS GREY you had zero basis to formulate any kind of hypothosis as to who I was even if I had given you more than I did, remember you met me only once while at HLA and during that conversation learned no important details. You further stated that someone else confirmed my location to you, and that it was the state you already believed I lived in. Yet as I already told you, I dont live in the same state I did while attending HLA. Furthermore you have as of yet been unable to provide a single detail about my life, all because you claim it would be tacky? Admitt it MRS GREY, you never knew anything to begin with, preety much the story of your life huh?
I want you to accept things as they are MRS GREY, you are unqualified to comment on HLA as you had no operational knowledge of it, no involvement in the day to day activities of it, and never spent any time with students to have an understanding of what was going on.
The best you can do is say "From what I saw (or choose to remember) it seemed like a legitimate place tht was genuinely interested in helping children, however I had little to no involvement with the place and spent almost no time at all with the students. So Im probably not qualified to say what it was really like, and I would never call a former student there a liar, as I have no basis for such a claim."
If you were to say such a statement I might even be willing to call you Shhh, as it would show real progress on your part. Oh you should also admitt you dont know me, and cannot properly answer any of the issues put to you concerning HLA.
Lets see if you cant pretend to be a grownup here.
Again I doubt it. [ This Message was edited by: RobertBruce on 2005-12-23 11:28 ]
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On 2005-04-29 19:44:00, SHH wrote:
"You forget something Dysfunction and Robert...you forget I lived on campus twice as long as both of you...I was associated with the school for 7 years..Robert you were there less then 2 yrs..same goes for Dysfunction...and D you were there 10 yrs ago. Yes I do know WHO you are Robert... I dont want to post your name because that is my choice...and Dysfunction if I dont know about the school back then how come I know about the big mac incident that got you in so much hot water?? And you claim no students ever remember bonfires but there were actually 3 of them...only the first one was my idea. Maybe no students you talked to went in those particular years. NO D. you dont know what I look like...never seen a picture of me, but I have met you you just dont remember it apparently. I never claimed to know everything about the school..but I do know what I personally experienced and I do know what was going on while I was there. "
Big Mac incident? What the hell are you talking about? I have no idea what you are referring to.
I never "got in trouble" for anything, much less a hamburger(?). I think you have me confused for someone else, although I never heard of a "Big Mac incident."
Being a bodybuilder, athlete and health food "nut," I never even ate McDonalds, much less had an "incident" with a burger (???).
You'll have to explain yourself.
I also told you earlier that I would take your word for it that your picture wasn't in Bill's office. I don't see why you keep bringing it up, as I have said, I'll take your word for it that it may have been someone else. I'll also take Robert's word for it what you look like, as he seems to know. OK?
Again, I'll point out that you were "associated" with HLA for "seven years" (I'll take your word for that, too, although the facts are a bit foggy).
What you seem not to understand is that I lived there, on campus, and was a counselor who worked with the kids all day every day. You also don't seem to understand that Robert lived there, on campus, and was a "student" (inmate) who was involved with all aspects of the "program," all day every day.
How does your experience of being an "associate" of the facility compare to both of our intimate involvement in HLA's daily workings?
Well, I think any reasonable (of course not YOU) person would say that a full-time counselor who lived on campus and a full-time inmate locked up on campus would have a greater degree of insight than a person who was a part-time clerical assistant for one year who never saw a group, never saw a class, never overnighted with the kids, never had any sort of relationship with any kid and who, most of all, had absolutely no experience with the "program." Wouldn't you agree?
Please don't post some rambling mess about bonfires or your husband or hamburgers (???) or any of that other garbage. Please don't digress or divert.
Please JUST answer the question posed: How does your experience as an associate compare with ours as a counselor and a "student"?
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-04-30 08:02 ]
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On 2005-04-29 14:39:00, SHH wrote:
"You are only partially correct D. He only had the corner office for 3 months....he had 2 other offices while you were there. And there were NEVER pictures of any family members in his office back then...especially in the short 3 months he was in that one....He didnt have pictures of the kids in his office until after 1999 or so..and NEVER had a picture of me anywhere on campus. So you still have no clue what you are talking about...there were NO pictures you would have seen of me. You must have dreamed it up."
When I left HLA, I concluded my business with them via an exit interview, conducted by Bill Grey, in that tiny corner office, which he was still occupying, late 1995.
So, what you're saying is that he had that office for only 3 months in 1994? That's simply false.
Just thought I'd point out another "mistake" in your "recollection."
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I never said he had that office in 1994..I said he had it for 3 months....he had one before it...two after it..and you could have never had an exit interview in there anyway there was no room for more than 1 chair..you dont seem to remember the first one though..which would have been the majority of your time there...and he didnt do exit interviews for counselors Dysfunction..only those in depts under his direction...Dr. B did those or the headmaster. So who's "recollection" is mistaken? Could it be yours? I mean it was 10 yrs ago and you only worked there for about a year and a half. I mean you dont even remember the mcdonalds incident that got so many students pissed and almost got you fired(I never said YOU were the one eating Big Macs as you suggested in your previous post)....so maybe it was just too long ago to remember everything.
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On 2005-05-01 19:59:00, SHH wrote:
"I never said he had that office in 1994..I said he had it for 3 months....he had one before it...two after it..and you could have never had an exit interview in there anyway there was no room for more than 1 chair..you dont seem to remember the first one though..which would have been the majority of your time there...and he didnt do exit interviews for counselors Dysfunction..only those in depts under his direction...Dr. B did those or the headmaster. So who's "recollection" is mistaken? Could it be yours? I mean it was 10 yrs ago and you only worked there for about a year and a half. I mean you dont even remember the mcdonalds incident that got so many students pissed and almost got you fired(I never said YOU were the one eating Big Macs as you suggested in your previous post)....so maybe it was just too long ago to remember everything. "
How are you going to tell me what I did and saw? God, woman, are you really that arrogant?
Yes, I did do my exit interview with Bill, in that office. Don't tell me I didn't. I was there. AGAIN, you were NOT.
I never "almost got fired" for ANYTHING, much less a burger. WTF?
I will now say, for a fact, you are a LIAR. You have no idea what you're talking about.
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I asked you nicely to please answer an IMPORTANT question. I asked you not to make another meaningless (lying) post and to answert one simple question (which again you refused because you are unable to deal with SUBSTANCE).
HOW DOES YOUR EXPERIENCE AS A PART-TIME CLERICAL ASSISTANT THAT NEVER HAD ANY CONTACT WITH ANY ASPECT OF THE "PROGRAM" COMPARE TO THE EXPERIENCES OF A FULL-TIME STUDENT AND FULL-TIME COUNSELOR?
Is it that hard to answer a substantive question?
PLEASE, no more lies, digressions or diversions. TELL THE TRUTH FOR ONCE AND ANSWER THE QUESTION.
HOW DOES YOUR EXPERIENCE AS A PART-TIME CLERICAL ASSISTANT THAT NEVER HAD ANY CONTACT WITH ANY ASPECT OF THE "PROGRAM" COMPARE TO THE EXPERIENCES OF A FULL-TIME STUDENT AND FULL-TIME COUNSELOR?
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Your ANSWER :
Your time at HLA was less then 2 yrs...more like a year and a couple of months...my time at HLA was 4 yrs on campus, 7 yrs associated with the school..I was married to its #2 employee...first employee to be hired to be precise. (well 2nd if you include Kevin)...it is my LENGTH of time at HLA that allows me to comment on my experiences..no I do not know every single detail of counseling sessions with children...but neither did you..you only know about the expereicnes of your own peer groups you knew...I knew about other aspects...and I did see hundreds of kids on a weekly then later on a daily basis when we moved up there... and I knew ALOT about the school in general ways through living there and my inlaws working there and knowing Dr. B and attending corporate retreats, meetings, etc...with upper management. So that DOES qualify me to talk about the school from MY perspective. And I was ALSO an employee for almost a year (11 months). Happy now? (I doubt it) OH and by the way I have NEVER lied on any post I ever put on here....I might have not remembered specific details properly or not remembered something from a specific month or something but I have NEVER EVER lied.
OH and one other thing...I know what I saw too..and I did know who Bill did exit interviews with because he would tell me who left on the days employees quit or got fired...he would tell me when that happened...so yes I do know what I am talking about and who he did exit interviews with.[ This Message was edited by: SHH on 2005-05-02 04:52 ]
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you remind me of bill clinton at the impeachments hearings trying to explain why he told the american public "i did not have sexual relations with that woman."
a failing memory conveniently allows you to explain away and dismiss all the abuses that were clear as day to everyone else. unlike you, we do remember every detail about the school!
so you worked at hla for 11 months, huh? you "don't recall" seeing any abuse?
you must have had your head up your for
all that time, how the hell did you manage to breath. that must've been a long 11 months!
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MRS GREY why in the hell would Buch ever have included you in any senior level meetings? Again you give yourself far to much credit. You had no operational knowledge of the school, and nothing to do with the day to day operation. As I said before it makes zero difference how long you were there, as by your own admission you had nothing to do with the major aspects of HLA. As to to not ever lying.....dont be stupid you told a lie the previous post, examine:
"and I did see hundreds of kids on a weekly then later on a daily basis when we moved up there.."
You yourself stated the bulk of your time there, there were less than 100 students, and there arent even 200 students there now.
Soooooooo explain?
Face facts, answer the questions put to you (none of my last questions put to you have been answered) looking forward to seeing you dodge you predicatable bullfrog looking bitch.
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On 2005-05-02 04:47:00, SHH wrote:
"Your ANSWER :
Your time at HLA was less then 2 yrs...more like a year and a couple of months...my time at HLA was 4 yrs on campus, 7 yrs associated with the school..I was married to its #2 employee...first employee to be hired to be precise. (well 2nd if you include Kevin)...it is my LENGTH of time at HLA that allows me to comment on my experiences..no I do not know every single detail of counseling sessions with children...but neither did you..you only know about the expereicnes of your own peer groups you knew...I knew about other aspects...and I did see hundreds of kids on a weekly then later on a daily basis when we moved up there... and I knew ALOT about the school in general ways through living there and my inlaws working there and knowing Dr. B and attending corporate retreats, meetings, etc...with upper management. So that DOES qualify me to talk about the school from MY perspective. And I was ALSO an employee for almost a year (11 months). Happy now? (I doubt it) OH and by the way I have NEVER lied on any post I ever put on here....I might have not remembered specific details properly or not remembered something from a specific month or something but I have NEVER EVER lied.
OH and one other thing...I know what I saw too..and I did know who Bill did exit interviews with because he would tell me who left on the days employees quit or got fired...he would tell me when that happened...so yes I do know what I am talking about and who he did exit interviews with.[ This Message was edited by: SHH on 2005-05-02 04:52 ]"
More BS. Again, someone who WASN'T EVEN THERE is going to tell people who ACTUALLY WERE THERE what happened. Geez. ZERO credibility here.
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hey dj, check my profile for email address, i think my pm's regarding july 4th are not getting through...
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:wave:
waving bye-bye to Mrs. Gray...
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This was posted on another forum. When I read it, the descriptions of the "tactics" looked AWFULLY FAMILIAR...
The tactics used to create undue psychological and social influence, often by means involving anxiety and stress, fall into seven main categories.
TACTIC 1
Increase suggestibility and "soften up" the individual through specific hypnotic or other suggestibility-increasing techniques such as:Extended audio, visual, verbal, or tactile fixation drills, Excessive exact repetition of routine activities, Sleep restriction and/or Nutritional restriction. SLEEP AND NUTRITIONAL RESTRICTIONS ARE USED AT HLA.
TACTIC 2
Establish control over the person's social environment, time and sources of social support by a system of often-excessive rewards and punishments. Social isolation is promoted. Contact with family and friends is abridged, as is contact with persons who do not share group-approved attitudes. Economic and other dependence on the group is fostered. OH, YEAH. THIS, TOO.
TACTIC 3
Prohibit disconfirming information and non supporting opinions in group communication. Rules exist about permissible topics to discuss with outsiders. Communication is highly controlled. An "in-group" language is usually constructed. YES, YES, AND YES.
TACTIC 4
Make the person re-evaluate the most central aspects of his or her experience of self and prior conduct in negative ways. Efforts are designed to destabilize and undermine the subject's basic consciousness, reality awareness, world view, emotional control and defense mechanisms. The subject is guided to reinterpret his or her life's history and adopt a new version of causality. "BREAK 'EM DOWN, 'N BUILD 'EM UP"
TACTIC 5
Create a sense of powerlessness by subjecting the person to intense and frequent actions and situations which undermine the person's confidence in himself and his judgment. KIDS CONSISTENTLY SET UP FOR FAILURE AND LOSE ALL SELF ESTEEM.
TACTIC 6
Create strong aversive emotional arousals in the subject by use of nonphysical punishments such as intense humiliation, loss of privilege, social isolation, social status changes, intense guilt, anxiety, manipulation and other techniques. ALL OF THESE, YES.
TACTIC 7
Intimidate the person with the force of group-sanctioned secular psychological threats. For example, it may be suggested or implied that failure to adopt the approved attitude, belief or consequent behavior will lead to severe punishment or dire consequences such as physical or mental illness, the reappearance of a prior physical illness, drug dependence, economic collapse, social failure, divorce, disintegration, failure to find a mate, etc. FOR SURE. DEADINSANEORINJAIL. "YOUR PARENTS WON'T LOVE YOU ANYMORE"
These tactics of psychological force are applied to such a severe degree that the individual's capacity to make informed or free choices becomes inhibited. YES The victims become unable to make the normal, wise or balanced decisions which they most likely or normally would have made, had they not been unknowingly manipulated by these coordinated technical processes. YES The cumulative effect of these processes can be an even more effective form of undue influence than pain, torture, drugs or the use of physical force and physical and legal threats. YOU BET IT CAN.
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Have these tactics been used at other places where you have worked or at your current place of employment also?
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Separate issue - I don't recall when you were at HLA, but I was wondering if you had court ordered
children attending then. HLA states that they do not have court ordered children in their
demographic s, nor do they have severe behaviorally troubled children. I know this is
not the case now. Are they in violation of parental contracts because they now have court ordered children? Thanks
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***This was posted on another forum. When I read it, the descriptions of the "tactics" looked AWFULLY FAMILIAR...
I thought the same and was about to post it here too.
Juniper,
I don't know if there is a standard definition of "severely disturbed". I can't comment on the issue of court oredered kids, but there were kids there who met my definition of "severely distressed".
One carried around a handful of pencils at all times which he was very protective of, and was humiliated for.
Another would vomit in his hand and put it in his pocket.
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When did this all take place?
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2000-2002
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Juniper when I was there, there were a large number of court ordered kids, as far as severly disturbed, issues ran the gamet youd have to be more specific.
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It says in their manual and demographics that they do not take court ordered children. If they did when youwere there and still are, is that a breach of faith or contract? They are advertising that they do not take court ordered children. How are they getting away with all this stuff?
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How are they getting away with alot of the things that they are doing, namely not being regulated by the state and being improperly licensed, or lying to parents, and attempting to brainwash kids while abusing them. I can not attest to whether or not they currently admitt court ordered kids, I do know that in the past and while I was there they most definitly did.
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***How are they getting away with alot of the things that they are doing
Largely because parents are unaware and do not take action when they do discover conflicting information.
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I think it's largely because of a pervasive false dilema; mainstream school, culture and what-not vs. the Program. Either you're a "good kid" according to the schoolpeople and the DARE cop or you're a "troubled kid" in need of intervention.
There's another, better option. Start early, like when they're toddlers. Do not present a unified front w/ whomever presents themselves as the authorities. Instead, teach your kids to make their own judgement calls and to come up w/ better strategies than those presented by MTV to deal w/ unjust and unwholesome authority figures and their dictates.
Hey, nobody promised it would be simple or easy or risk free.
"Now, I'm a walking dead man," ... "And what bothers me is that I'm dead because I tried to help the kids. And it's all the fault of all those people over there at the DEA." [Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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On 2005-05-09 22:30:00, juniper wrote:
"It says in their manual and demographics that they do not take court ordered children. If they did when youwere there and still are, is that a breach of faith or contract? They are advertising that they do not take court ordered children. How are they getting away with all this stuff?"
Yes, when I was there they took court ordered kids. According to Robert, they did so at least thru 2002. That's eight years accounted for.
Any recent students/staff that can tell us about 2002-2005?
Why do they get away with it? They're scam artists. They get away with it just like others do: lack of regulation, embarrassed victims that don't want to bring action, good political and other connections, and, most of all LOTS OF MONEY.
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Why is taking court ordered kids a bad thing? Isn't being sent to a boarding school/treatment center better than going to jail and having it on a child's criminal record? Aren't most children sent to treatment centers or boarding schools because the crimes they committed weren't serious enough to warrant jail time? Are court ordered kids a danger to other kids who aren't court ordered? Just wondering.
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Thats a possibility yes, the bigger issue is whether or not HLA is being forthcoming with the parents of those kids which are not.
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On 2005-05-17 04:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why is taking court ordered kids a bad thing?
Long story...
Isn't being sent to a boarding school/treatment center better than going to jail and having it on a child's criminal record?
Heh, yeah right! First off, juvenile records are generally sealed by default at the age of majority. 17yo's often take advantage of this well known fact by fighting everyone they've ever wanted to fight before they come of age.
But, more to the point, having spent time in JDC (placed there by my parents w/ help from Program lawyers and a judge, not for any real crime) and in a RTC, I can tell you that, hands down, JDC was less harmful and less unpleasant.
Aren't most children sent to treatment centers or boarding schools because the crimes they committed weren't serious enough to warrant jail time?
No, some are sent because they haven't committed any crime at all, but their parents have a fragile grasp on reality and can't tolerate their little children growing up into ham fisted, awkward and sometimes fool hearty young adults. But for those who have come before a juvenile judge, the judge, DA, guardian ad litem and all the rest have determined that the kid doesn't need or deserve to be locked up. And this is so common, too. When I read from a parent or former client "We tried everything, shrinks, counseling, this and that...." what I hear is "Well, we asked every professional and pseudo professional we could find, looked under every rock, but just couldn't fine one who would agree w/ our paranoid delusion that our kid needed confinement... then came [edcon or rtc].
It's no different from the plastic surgery racket, except that the victim is the kid who has no say in the matter. You can go from one doc to the next, each one telling you they won't do the proceedure you want because it doesn't pass the risk/benefit test. But, if you keep trying, eventually you'll find somebody willing to take your money and tell you whatever you want to hear.
Are court ordered kids a danger to other kids who aren't court ordered? Just wondering."
Sometimes they are just because the stakes are higher. A kid who's not court ordered can risk trying to convince their parents to let them come home. A kid who's court ordered (and who doesn't know that JDC is not the hellish scene they've been told it is) doesn't have that option. So they may be more willing to take more desperate measures in order to escape and not be found.
But that's not my primary concern. My primary concern is that the courts are ordering kids into punishments that go way beyond anything authorized by law. That's just crazy! The juvy system has enough problems w/o going outside of it to something even worse!It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems don't try to make it posthumous.
--Gloria Steinam, women's rights activist
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The following is a letter I had written in response to a concerned parent who currently has a child at Hidden Lake Academy:
"Hello. The letter you viewed was one I'd written last year around this time actually. I'd love to answer any questions you have. I must first ask though, why was he sent to HLA? The reason I ask is because you need to ask yourself a very serious question, Was the way he was before he went to HLA as dangerous as how he may feel upon his life after HLA? I'll give you a quick background of my story in order for you to understand. Right up to the time before I went to HLA, I had ceased caring whether I lived or died and had become a wandering junkie among the streets after dropping out of school and running away from home. I was sent to HLA upon a court order. I don't want to go into detail about how horrible my experience was at HLA, but I will say that there's no real individual counseling in order to find out what each child needs. It's all done the cheapest way possible in order for them to still say that they are counseling, which is group counseling. Group counseling on a mass structure can be successful when everyone may be suffering from the same problems such as Alcoholics Anonymous, but in this case what one child needs another may not. You must also understand that because of this they fill everyones heads with the same rules of life by breaking down everything they've been taught and rebuilding their thinking. This sounds as if it could be good, yes? But it's not. It's not actually correcting any problems. It's covering them up with a therapeutic veneer and teaching them to suppress their problems since they're not actually working through them. This insures that they may seem like things are better for them and that they're cured for a long enough time for them to leave HLA and then some. As you know though, anything suppressed will eventually surface and need to be dealt with again. So in actuallity HLA did nothing except offer a temporary fix. For some it does work, but very few. Most of the children end up with double the amount of problems, because you then have to worry about the same old problems accompanied by the trust issues and identity disorder that HLA has installed. After leaving HLA I started noticing that I felt like a robot. It took awhile to figure out who I was again. Through all this searching I was lucky, because I started noticing subtle beauties in life that made me want to live, plus being sober I was able to look back at all the wrongs I'd done and people I'd hurt and became determined to change some of my ways. Now I'm a very happy person for the most part, but I do suffer from some problems that I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to overcome, because my mind doesn't recognize them. They're purely irrational thoughts that I can't control which cause me to have panic attacks. I have social anxiety disorder and some serious trust issues from things my last psychologist said had become such a deep part of my psyche that it was part of my personality and could become a danger to try to change. I have learned to function fine as long as I take my medication. I am in a very successful relationship, my parents and I are now much better friends, and I care about my life as well as others'... Once again, I must say, that was my story. Everybody's story's different. For some the rebellious teenager is just a phase. It's practically impossible to know that though since we can't see the future. My parents have apologized a few times about getting me sent to HLA, because they see what it has done. They say that if they could go back they would do things differently. I don't think it's that easy though. I needed some help and my parents just didn't know what to do. I do not blame them for anything. They did what they felt they had to after we'd gotten into some serious scuffles and they saw me slowly but rapidly dying. You can see why I said that this is a very hard question to deal with. My advice personally is not HLA and is one on one counseling with the whole family. Make sure also that the psychologist is not a friend of anyone in the family, because you do not want them to be tempted into taking sides because of the personal relationship he/she has with a family member. For all we know, there may be things about all of you that may need to change in order for there to be that balance that your family needs. I know that's how it was for us, my family that is. This means that you must be open for anything that your therapist may say to you without getting defensive. There is no easy way out of this. Remember that... I to have never told my parents certain disturbing things that have gone on there, because they already beat themselves up over sending me there, so I can understand why your son is reluctant to say anything. Plus there's also the fact that he's scared to because of what they may try to pull. I was brainwashed into trying to commit suicide when they found out that I was trying to get my court order dropped because I felt like I'd worked through all of my problems, mostly on my own because i was willing and wanted to change things in my life. They wanted me to slip up and try something so as not to lose my money. It didn't exactly work as they wanted it to because we discovered what they were trying to do. Avarice and the ability to control someone's mind don't mix... Concerning your academics worry, there are no real academics. In spanish, the answers were always on the bottom of the page upside down and no teaching was involved, just worksheets. It's a gimic in order to make the parents feel as if some change is occuring. You cannot fail a class, you get incompletes until they make you do it with work assignments or calistenics. I remember when I made honor roll, my parents were so proud that I didn't even tell them that I was only in my first week of the school classes and hadn't actually done anything yet. So he may get good grades, but there's no serious learning taking place. I'd be more worried about his being able to function upon leaving than his academics though, because his credits should transfer fine. But he may do horrible in the next school because although it states that he made an A in the previous math class, there's a good chance he didn't learn anything, so it's going to be more difficult for him to keep up since he's been out of a real school environment for so long... I hope that all of this will encourage you to make the decision you feel is best. I'm sorry you must go through this, but since you must, please make the best educated decision possible. This is your son's future and possibly his life at stake. Since you obviously care about him in order to seek my help, I'm sure you'll do what is best. Here is a link yu may find helpful, http://www.heal-online.org/hiddenlake.htm... (http://www.heal-online.org/hiddenlake.htm...). Are you aware that there are a few class action lawsuits in the works against HLA?.. Please do not tell HLA that you have spoken with me. They are very powerful and have the ability to come up with answers to anything, hence the psychologist part. I'm risking alot by sharing these things with you. Thankyou and Goodluck. Love, Me"
I have posted this with the hopes that I could help answer some questions for those in worry. If you are planning to or know someone who may be planning to undergo such circumstances, please forward on this letter. Thankyou.
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bump it
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HIDDEN LAKE CONTRACTS WITH PSYCHIATRIST
(March 2005) Hidden Lake Academy, Dahlonega, GA, 800-394-0640, http://www.hiddenlakeacademy.com (http://www.hiddenlakeacademy.com), announced that because of a growth in the number of students and their psychiatric needs, the program has expanded its psychiatric services by contracting with an additional psychiatrist, Consuelo M. Reddick, MD. She is on campus weekly to assist students with medication reviews, medical support and emergency on-call situations.
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On 2005-06-11 08:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"HIDDEN LAKE CONTRACTS WITH PSYCHIATRIST
(March 2005) Hidden Lake Academy, Dahlonega, GA, 800-394-0640, http://www.hiddenlakeacademy.com (http://www.hiddenlakeacademy.com), announced that because of a growth in the number of students and their psychiatric needs, the program has expanded its psychiatric services by contracting with an additional psychiatrist, Consuelo M. Reddick, MD. She is on campus weekly to assist students with medication reviews, medical support and emergency on-call situations.
"
So much for the no-medication model. These peole will do whatever it takes to sell a parent. Meds, no meds, no court-ordered, court-ordered, therapy, no therapy, wilderness, no wilderness. It's gotta make you wonder how this place can cover both sides of every issue and be effective at all.
If they were politicians, we'd call them "scam artists."
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"Upon enrollment, disclosure of any psychotropic medications a student is on must be declared in a written form. If a student is on psychotropic medications, they need to see a psychiatrist for medication management or to receive a weaning schedule. HLA has a ?no medication? policy and prefers to wean the students off psychotropic medications whenever possible. The structure that we provide enables most students to succeed without being medicated while at HLA. Our consulting Psychiatrist meets with students on a weekly basis."
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Wow, 18 months sure seems like a long time to wean a kid off of their med's! :roll: But, I suppose having that as a policy makes them feel less like liars. That should be a table for manipulation...
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Where in this statement does it say it takes 18 months to wean kids off of medications? I don't see that anywhere in that paragraph. Any doctor knows that when kids are on Ritalin or Paxil you can't enroll them in a school that prefers non-medicated students and suddenly take them off the drugs they have been on for months, possibly years. It is the safe thing to wean them off slowly over a period of weeks or several months. I believe you are reading what you want into the statement above and not what it actually says.
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Actually, I was enrolled in HLA and almost immediately taken off of my ADD meds.
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When I was there most kids stayed on.
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On 2005-09-25 15:10:00, RobertBruce wrote:
"When I was there most kids stayed on."
When I was there, you were stupid. Hahah. Sorry, man. In one of those kinda moods. We should talk soon.
Love, Tall Georgian Brother, also known as Heidi's brother
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Sorry just realized where I knew Heidi from.
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You are so right I went there and got the inside scoop on THE SERIOUSNess of shit they do and am planning a lawsuit please help I can help you
THanks
KC email me kconley@unm.edu
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::bump::
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:skull:
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"I graduated HLA in 2004. Just like everyone else i hated the place and i think that there were a lot of things that went on there that shouldn't have and probably still do. I asked my parents why they sent me there and they said they wanted to put me in a drug free environment where i could get help. well, needless to say, i didn't get help (big surprise), but i also was not in a drug free environment. For the duration of my stay at HLA several other students and myself traded articles of clothing to staff members in exchange for marijauna, cigarettes, and dip. some staff member's gave dip and cigarettes to us free of charge, including the director of athletics at the time. HLA doesn't fix kids, it just teaches them how to lie like the best."
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On 2005-11-18 07:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
""I graduated HLA in 2004. Just like everyone else i hated the place and i think that there were a lot of things that went on there that shouldn't have and probably still do. I asked my parents why they sent me there and they said they wanted to put me in a drug free environment where i could get help. well, needless to say, i didn't get help (big surprise), but i also was not in a drug free environment. For the duration of my stay at HLA several other students and myself traded articles of clothing to staff members in exchange for marijauna, cigarettes, and dip. some staff member's gave dip and cigarettes to us free of charge, including the director of athletics at the time. HLA doesn't fix kids, it just teaches them how to lie like the best." "
Mrs. Gray here you have a former inmate offering his first hand account of things.
Will you claim he is:
A) Lying about it because he is angry.
B) Spreading rumors he does not know to be fact.
C) Attacking you because you know what knew what went on there better than any student who lived there did. After all you were in the same zip code as the school for seven years and you do take care of TWO disabled family members.
Which will it be Mrs. Gray, because as we are all well aware you could never accept the possibility that he might simply be telling the truth.
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Posted by a physician in another thread...
"My experience with Hidden Lake Academy was also distressing.
In my opinion, and the opinions of the six other physicians in my practice who followed my HLA misadventure with me, HLA is a predator whose prey is the horrified parents of disturbed teens. It is an institution of opportunity, bringing home its bottom line at the expense of the desperate, frazzled families it exploits.
By the time most parents are introduced to HLA, they've already been through a costly and demoralizing gauntlet of police stations, court appearances, counselor visits, psychiatric evaluations...even hospital visits.
To say they are desperate is an understatement. They are trying to keep their families from self-destructing. In most cases, the only option is turning the child out onto the streets: most insurance policies won't cover mental health care, and even if a family is lucky enough to have good coverage, it is limited to short, individual events. Deeply needed inpatient care is rarely an option for most of these families.
So even considering a modality such as a therapeutic boarding school is a true extravagance. Actually sending the student may mean mortgaging a home, selling it, or even bancruptcy.
Enter Hidden Lake and its ilk.
I was asked by the parents of a young teen to evaluate HLA by its Web site. What stood out to me even more than the philosophy that medical therapy was discouraged were the many typographical errors and careless mistakes on nearly every page of the site. While my own writing is not perfect, I am not registered as a boarding school, responsible for the education of children, presumably overflowing with teachers more than capable of proofreading the very materials provided to the public for the purpose of attracting business.
When I brought my concerns to the attention to the school, they were received with, well, less than warm gratitude. My comments to HLA were meant to be constructive. I was gracious and self-effacing in my original letter because the last thing I wanted was to offend the school. Clearly such niceties were a waste of effort.
Given that the parents are expected to pay upwards of seven thousand dollars per month for the privilege of sending their child to a therapeutic boarding school, I actually expected a minimum of civility. None was evident.
My credentials were questioned?this from an institution whose methods are questionable, at best, from a medical (and psychiatric, I might add) point of view.
Fast forward a few months...and imagine how surprised I was to come across the story of the parent in the previous posts. Am I shocked HLA will not send the child's transcripts? Nope. They demonstrated their pettiness, immaturity, and curious vindictiveness to me, a peer and potential referral base a long time ago. Was I surprised that personal belongings, including necessary daily medications, were sent COD?by ground? Actually, yes.
Not only did that shock me, it caused me to pick up the phone and discuss this gross mismanagement of a patient's medications with a malpractice attorney, who recommends HLA check to be sure their insurance premiums are paid.
To the parent: my suggestion is that you alert your attorney to your experience. Gather all proof of your allegations, including the boxes the personal effects were sent in, the COD receipt(s), the condition of any damaged items, a list of missing items, if any, and proof of payments made to HLA. Regardless of any contract signed (as a previous Anonymous poster cryptically stated), a minimum level of responsibility to the patient's health is required by ANY institution. That minimum includes making reasonable arrangements for the patient to have access to their medications. COD shipping by ground is not, by any standard, "reasonable."
So guess what, parent? You may be getting a sizeable percentage of the "investment" HLA coerced you to pay them right back into your pocket.
I'll be cheering for you from this sideline."
UNBIASED OUTSIDE OPINION BY MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL SAYS HLA IS "PREDATOR" VICTIMIZING PARENTS AND CHILDREN. WAKE UP, PEOPLE. :skull:
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I think it depended on the counselor, when I left HLA they told me that they would fire my counselor if I came back. Then they fired him and I still refused to go back, they (higher staff) told me how sorry they were for the way he treated me. My folks weren't happy that I sent almost three months sleeping on the floor because I was restricting my food. That was one of the reasons I was there, don't fucking punish me for issues I came to fix. I think the abuse, if any was mental. I was fucked up after HLA though, lots of trust issues. I was like, I'm not going anywhere or admitting anything-somebody's going to come into my room at 3am and take me away! People just looked at me like I was crazy, there like your eighteen, nobody's going to put you away.
http://tinyurl.com/ym8j9t (http://tinyurl.com/ym8j9t)
Stew, some of what you said is true--you're right, we do have the opportunity to choose our own paths. I believe in that whole hartedly, but HLA made me feel like every choice I made was manipulated by authority. I felt like I could never really trust the motives of staff, were they making me stand out in the cold rain late at night because they really wanted to heal my wounds?? I went to another program after HLA, they were horrified by the stories I had from HLA. You can't punish someone's pain out of them.
****
Okay, can any of you apologists defend this? Please post any research that would support standing in the cold rain late at night or sleeping on the floor for 3 months as an appropriate treatment for an eating disorder.
This young woman is wiser than her degreed counselors and the policy makers at HLA when she states, "You can't punish someone's pain out of them."
-
On 2005-12-19 09:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think it depended on the counselor, when I left HLA they told me that they would fire my counselor if I came back. Then they fired him and I still refused to go back, they (higher staff) told me how sorry they were for the way he treated me. My folks weren't happy that I sent almost three months sleeping on the floor because I was restricting my food. That was one of the reasons I was there, don't fucking punish me for issues I came to fix. I think the abuse, if any was mental. I was fucked up after HLA though, lots of trust issues. I was like, I'm not going anywhere or admitting anything-somebody's going to come into my room at 3am and take me away! People just looked at me like I was crazy, there like your eighteen, nobody's going to put you away.
http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuse ... 2193964187 (http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=9384554&adTopicID=29&categoryID=0&IsSticky=0&groupID=100144848&Mytoken=F211E94E-5B14-4F94-B059AE78A5A03032193964187)
Stew, some of what you said is true--you're right, we do have the opportunity to choose our own paths. I believe in that whole hartedly, but HLA made me feel like every choice I made was manipulated by authority. I felt like I could never really trust the motives of staff, were they making me stand out in the cold rain late at night because they really wanted to heal my wounds?? I went to another program after HLA, they were horrified by the stories I had from HLA. You can't punish someone's pain out of them.
****
Okay, can any of you apologists defend this? Please post any research that would support standing in the cold rain late at night or sleeping on the floor for 3 months as an appropriate treatment for an eating disorder.
This young woman is wiser than her degreed counselors and the policy makers at HLA when she states, "You can't punish someone's pain out of them."
"
Talk about unethical practices and manipulation. "We'll fire your counselor if you come back"? Are you fucking JOKING me? If they committed a firable offense (which they CLEARLY DID), why were they not summarily shitcanned? What the hell does a patient have to do with these decisions? Why would management use that as a manipulation chip?
Every new story I hear out of this place is more disturbing than the last.
-
That's because 90% of the things said on this sight are lies.
-
90% is that a fact?
Please list them off one by one. We'll address each and every thing you feel as a lie.
Get ready to look really really stupid.
(Not that thats anythign new for you or you owner)
-
On 2005-12-19 10:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That's because 90% of the things said on this sight are lies."
Well, that's debatable. I'm pretty sure that both sides engage in their fair share of guilding the lily.
The truth is somewhere in the middle, which, in my opinion, is cause for immediate concern.
So to get some meaningful dialogue started, instead of affrontery, why don't you tell us about the 10% of the content on this site with which you do in fact agree.
What types of abuse claimed by former patients can you verify or enlighten everyone about? Is the "program" effective at achieving long-range improvement for its participants? Have you read the studies done by the Surgeon General of the
United States that conclude RTC's have been shown, through longitudinal studies (NOT "surveys" of "satisfied" parents) to be at best ineffective and at worst terribly dangerous?
What else can you do to help to refresh the discourse?
Thanks in advance.
-
I will agree that Restrictions used to have there own meal, instead of eating what the rest of the students eat which they do now.
I will agree that students on restriction have to do some hard work, but some of the things written here are wildly exaggerated.
Is the program effective in the long run? I have not seen any longitudinal studies done to fully answer this. I do know that the kids that wanted help, got help. I hear, on a regular basis, from former students that HLA saved their lives, even though they hated it at the time.
And, though I don't want to get into the debate again, HLA is a FAR cry from an RTC. I know people that don't like HLA try to put it in that categorie, but any resonable human being that has observed both HLA and an RTC immediately know that is not what HLA is.
I have not seen the Surgeon Genreals study. Please site the source so that I can read it.
-
No one knows who you are and with what authority you speak for the program, but if you want to state your anonymous opinion....
What do you see the differences between and RTC and HLA to be, specifically?
Which restriction 'tasks' are exaggerated?
What is the daily routine for a kid on restrictions?
Google Surgeon General's report on RTCs. Although, I was thinking that it was the Inspector General. I know that office put out a report expressing concern about the inadequate oversight of residential programs.
You really should do the research yourself, but if you can't manage to find it, let me know and I'll hook you up.
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On 2005-12-19 12:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I will agree that Restrictions used to have there own meal, instead of eating what the rest of the students eat which they do now.
I will agree that students on restriction have to do some hard work, but some of the things written here are wildly exaggerated.
Is the program effective in the long run? I have not seen any longitudinal studies done to fully answer this. I do know that the kids that wanted help, got help. I hear, on a regular basis, from former students that HLA saved their lives, even though they hated it at the time.
And, though I don't want to get into the debate again, HLA is a FAR cry from an RTC. I know people that don't like HLA try to put it in that categorie, but any resonable human being that has observed both HLA and an RTC immediately know that is not what HLA is.
I have not seen the Surgeon Genreals study. Please site the source so that I can read it."
Can you tell us how you get your information about HLA? In what capacity are you associated with the treatment center?
-
>>>>>>>>>>>> I will agree that Restrictions used to have there own meal, instead of eating what the rest of the students eat which they do now<<<<<
Is that you way of saying "Yes we do ration food for kids on restriction." Dont mince words or try to "manipulate".
:grin: :grin:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I will agree that students on restriction have to do some hard work, but some of the things written here are wildly exaggerated. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Again knowing full well this is in fact illegal. But please do state which things are "wildly exaggerated".
>>>>>>>>>>>Is the program effective in the long run? I have not seen any longitudinal studies done to fully answer this. I do know that the kids that wanted help, got help. I hear, on a regular basis, from former students that HLA saved their lives, even though they hated it at the time.<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Really? Cause I know many former students who had problems at the time, yet were made worse by HLA. Maybe they wanted help but HLA couldnt or better put wouldnt provide it. How about the kids who didnt need help? Did they benefit from it? Did HLA save their lives as well? How can you comment on so many kids whom you dont speak with?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>And, though I don't want to get into the debate again, HLA is a FAR cry from an RTC. I know people that don't like HLA try to put it in that categorie, but any resonable human being that has observed both HLA and an RTC immediately know that is not what HLA is. <<<<<<<<<
Is that right? You dont want to get into the debate again? Well then why did you bring it up? I mean we posted the GA definition of what an RTC is. They look preety close to me. If its not though what is it? Is it a traditional boarding school? Is it a theraputic boarding school? Perhaps it your magical "both" category. How about a traditional theraputic boarding school? Tell us what it is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>I have not seen the Surgeon Genreals study. Please site the source so that I can read it.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Surgeon General? Did he do a study? Did someone mention one? Are you high?
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Oh my apologies the above post was mine.
-
On 2005-12-19 12:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I will agree that Restrictions used to have there own meal, instead of eating what the rest of the students eat which they do now.
I will agree that students on restriction have to do some hard work, but some of the things written here are wildly exaggerated.
Is the program effective in the long run? I have not seen any longitudinal studies done to fully answer this. I do know that the kids that wanted help, got help. I hear, on a regular basis, from former students that HLA saved their lives, even though they hated it at the time.
And, though I don't want to get into the debate again, HLA is a FAR cry from an RTC. I know people that don't like HLA try to put it in that categorie, but any resonable human being that has observed both HLA and an RTC immediately know that is not what HLA is.
I have not seen the Surgeon Genreals study. Please site the source so that I can read it."
Well, I worked at two RTC's. Yours and a state-funded one. There is no difference in their purpose.
The big difference is that state-funded RTC's are usually grossly underfunded and have a lot of poor kids in them. HLA is no different, except for the average socioeconomic status of their patients.
Also, HLA claims to treat some pretty serious psycho/social disorders and provision of that high of a level of care comes from RTC's not boarding schools. Are you saying that HLA is taking on all of these difficult cases without the resources or intention to treat them?
-
I meant where can I find the study?
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On 2005-12-19 12:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
">>>>>>>>>>>> I will agree that Restrictions used to have there own meal, instead of eating what the rest of the students eat which they do now<<<<<
Is that you way of saying "Yes we do ration food for kids on restriction." Dont mince words or try to "manipulate".
:grin: :grin:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I will agree that students on restriction have to do some hard work, but some of the things written here are wildly exaggerated. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Again knowing full well this is in fact illegal. But please do state which things are "wildly exaggerated".
>>>>>>>>>>>Is the program effective in the long run? I have not seen any longitudinal studies done to fully answer this. I do know that the kids that wanted help, got help. I hear, on a regular basis, from former students that HLA saved their lives, even though they hated it at the time.<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Really? Cause I know many former students who had problems at the time, yet were made worse by HLA. Maybe they wanted help but HLA couldnt or better put wouldnt provide it. How about the kids who didnt need help? Did they benefit from it? Did HLA save their lives as well? How can you comment on so many kids whom you dont speak with?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>And, though I don't want to get into the debate again, HLA is a FAR cry from an RTC. I know people that don't like HLA try to put it in that categorie, but any resonable human being that has observed both HLA and an RTC immediately know that is not what HLA is. <<<<<<<<<
Is that right? You dont want to get into the debate again? Well then why did you bring it up? I mean we posted the GA definition of what an RTC is. They look preety close to me. If its not though what is it? Is it a traditional boarding school? Is it a theraputic boarding school? Perhaps it your magical "both" category. How about a traditional theraputic boarding school? Tell us what it is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>I have not seen the Surgeon Genreals study. Please site the source so that I can read it.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Surgeon General? Did he do a study? Did someone mention one? Are you high?"
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/mentalhealth/chapter3/sec7.html
"...a large longitudinal six-state study of children in publicly funded RTCs found at the 7-year followup that 75 percent of youth treated at an RTC had been either readmitted to a mental health facility (about 45 percent) or incarcerated in a correctional setting (about 30 percent) (Greenbaum et al., 1998)."
Hardly a 96% success rate.
These programs are blatant ripoffs of desperate parents.
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Did this study do any comparative studies, matching these kids up against kids with similar issues who received no help. That is where you will find value of a program. You have to compare kids that need treatment and don't get it, to kids who need treatment and do get it. Otherwise you are not viewing the situation clearly.
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Thats not what you asked.
This proves that RTC (HLA included) do not have a 96% success rate as was claimed. The study isnt comparing against kids who did not enter RTC's as there is no way to conduct such a study.
Are you going to survey every kid in America that ever had a problem. Be my guest the numbers will favor our claim even better.
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On 2005-12-19 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Did this study do any comparative studies, matching these kids up against kids with similar issues who received no help. That is where you will find value of a program. You have to compare kids that need treatment and don't get it, to kids who need treatment and do get it. Otherwise you are not viewing the situation clearly."
Spin, deny, perry, block!! :lol:
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Yes please stop manipulating and simply acknowledge the truth.
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yeh, kids that stayed close to home and got community services fared better.
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Wow! I didn't expect to get such a harsh response. I simply am trying to find out what the truth is in regards to the effectiveness of these programs. No need to accuse or attack.
Where, by the way, does the 96% stat come from? I would like to see that.
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On 2005-12-19 13:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Wow! I didn't expect to get such a harsh response. I simply am trying to find out what the truth is in regards to the effectiveness of these programs. No need to accuse or attack.
Where, by the way, does the 96% stat come from? I would like to see that."
WWASP (another BM LGAT program) claims 96% success rate and offers a "warranty."
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So your not saying that HLA claims a 96% success rate. That was implied. Let's try not to be misleading folks.
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On 2005-12-19 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Did this study do any comparative studies, matching these kids up against kids with similar issues who received no help. That is where you will find value of a program. You have to compare kids that need treatment and don't get it, to kids who need treatment and do get it. Otherwise you are not viewing the situation clearly."
You are ridiculous. Here is a study that shows MORE THAN 50% of patients that receive RTC treatment recidivate. Their numbers show 75%!
The question is not RTC kids vs. untreated kids, IT'S RTC KIDS vs. OUTPATIENT TREATMENT (the appropriate tx for kids capable of functioning at a boarding school).
READ THE STUDY. Outpatient tx is effective and costs very little, RTC tx is ineffective or even DAMAGING and is $7000.00/mo.
Even your fancy $7000.00/mo brand of RTC is many times less effective than standard outpatient, community-based tx.
"SURGEON GENERAL WARNS RTC'S HAZARDOUS TO HEALTH"
Your marketing materials should be required to bear this warning.
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On 2005-12-19 14:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So your not saying that HLA claims a 96% success rate. That was implied. Let's try not to be misleading folks."
True. But since HLA is a RTC they would appear to fall under the same standards.
-
No. If HLA were an RTC the state would require them to be licensed as one. Being that the state does not require that, they are not an RTC. If you want to argue with the state that is fine. They have seen the school, many times, and have claimed it not to be an RTC.
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Oh but we've proven that HLA lies to the state regarding their purpose. Its not hard to dress up and pretend and when the state comes around to take a look.
HLA is a RTC or a theraputic boarding school. Either way they are avoiding state regulations. They do lie to the state and claim they are a traditional boarding school yet advertise differently. This has been proven time and again.
Would you like to try and refute this?
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On 2005-12-19 14:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No. If HLA were an RTC the state would require them to be licensed as one.
:lol: :lol: NOW who's being naive????
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On 2005-12-19 14:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No. If HLA were an RTC the state would require them to be licensed as one. Being that the state does not require that, they are not an RTC. If you want to argue with the state that is fine. They have seen the school, many times, and have claimed it not to be an RTC. "
This is a lie. Show an inspection report where the state said they weren't an RTC. Show the proof. I know you're lying.
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On 2005-12-19 10:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-19 09:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think it depended on the counselor, when I left HLA they told me that they would fire my counselor if I came back. Then they fired him and I still refused to go back, they (higher staff) told me how sorry they were for the way he treated me. My folks weren't happy that I sent almost three months sleeping on the floor because I was restricting my food. That was one of the reasons I was there, don't fucking punish me for issues I came to fix. I think the abuse, if any was mental. I was fucked up after HLA though, lots of trust issues. I was like, I'm not going anywhere or admitting anything-somebody's going to come into my room at 3am and take me away! People just looked at me like I was crazy, there like your eighteen, nobody's going to put you away.
http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuse ... 2193964187 (http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=9384554&adTopicID=29&categoryID=0&IsSticky=0&groupID=100144848&Mytoken=F211E94E-5B14-4F94-B059AE78A5A03032193964187)
Stew, some of what you said is true--you're right, we do have the opportunity to choose our own paths. I believe in that whole hartedly, but HLA made me feel like every choice I made was manipulated by authority. I felt like I could never really trust the motives of staff, were they making me stand out in the cold rain late at night because they really wanted to heal my wounds?? I went to another program after HLA, they were horrified by the stories I had from HLA. You can't punish someone's pain out of them.
****
Okay, can any of you apologists defend this? Please post any research that would support standing in the cold rain late at night or sleeping on the floor for 3 months as an appropriate treatment for an eating disorder.
This young woman is wiser than her degreed counselors and the policy makers at HLA when she states, "You can't punish someone's pain out of them."
"
Talk about unethical practices and manipulation. "We'll fire your counselor if you come back"? Are you fucking JOKING me? If they committed a firable offense (which they CLEARLY DID), why were they not summarily shitcanned? What the hell does a patient have to do with these decisions? Why would management use that as a manipulation chip?
Every new story I hear out of this place is more disturbing than the last."
Why do the HLA groupies avoid answering the meaningful questions like this one? We're still waiting to hear why it's ok to manipulate patients, but patients that speak out about abuses are negatively labeled "manipulators."
-
Still waiting. I love how the incessant trolling stops when serious questions are asked and the thread goes dormant. The trolls love to have meaningless arguments to keep off the subject.
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On 2005-12-20 16:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Still waiting. I love how the incessant trolling stops when serious questions are asked and the thread goes dormant. The trolls love to have meaningless arguments to keep off the subject."
Yup...trolls refuse to answer perfectly legitimate questions and vanish when they have no valid counter argument. Glad I didnt decide to hold my breath waiting for a response. :roll:
-
Take that to mean that you are right, and they are weak and afraid of the truth.
-
obviously this person is lying.
-
Which person and about what?
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I'm sorry, but you'll have to enlighten me. What boarding schools that you know of use this type of procedure on their students?
*****"Chris Legacy posted 4/30/05 10:37 PM
-----------------------------------------
As I said before I have more to say. I know first hand that you actually do take your underwear off and you squat down and cough(It really is uncomfortable). I who have no drug problems had to do this. The school had no sence of trust in the student body. Yeah there were Honor Societies there, but to join them still got you no more trust by both staff, and students cause there was the fear you were going to snitch to look good. I mean there is so much shit going on at HLA, kids are having sex in the bathroom. I would know I was one of them."*****
Last time I checked, schoosl didn't tell you to strip naked, bend over, spread your cheeks, squat down, cough, turn around, pick up your balls, put your arms out, turn your hands over, bend down and shake out your hair.
Why does HLA do this? Oh, just so you don't say this doesn't happen, I've seen it done dozens of times.
-
On 2006-01-01 05:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm sorry, but you'll have to enlighten me. What boarding schools that you know of use this type of procedure on their students?
*****"Chris Legacy posted 4/30/05 10:37 PM
-----------------------------------------
As I said before I have more to say. I know first hand that you actually do take your underwear off and you squat down and cough(It really is uncomfortable). I who have no drug problems had to do this. The school had no sence of trust in the student body. Yeah there were Honor Societies there, but to join them still got you no more trust by both staff, and students cause there was the fear you were going to snitch to look good. I mean there is so much shit going on at HLA, kids are having sex in the bathroom. I would know I was one of them."*****
Last time I checked, schoosl didn't tell you to strip naked, bend over, spread your cheeks, squat down, cough, turn around, pick up your balls, put your arms out, turn your hands over, bend down and shake out your hair.
Why does HLA do this? Oh, just so you don't say this doesn't happen, I've seen it done dozens of times."
How about this type of behavior? This smacks of CHILD MOLESTER. There is absolutely NO professional organization that uses this type of procedure. It looks like the counselor wanted to see this poor kids genitals bouncing around more than look for contraband.
>>>>>"... when i was 13 after like my second visit during my strip search that ted guy asked me to uncup my balls and jump up and down, and i was like why? and he was like nevermind u can get dressed..."<<<<<
-
On 2006-01-01 06:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-01 05:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm sorry, but you'll have to enlighten me. What boarding schools that you know of use this type of procedure on their students?
*****"Chris Legacy posted 4/30/05 10:37 PM
-----------------------------------------
As I said before I have more to say. I know first hand that you actually do take your underwear off and you squat down and cough(It really is uncomfortable). I who have no drug problems had to do this. The school had no sence of trust in the student body. Yeah there were Honor Societies there, but to join them still got you no more trust by both staff, and students cause there was the fear you were going to snitch to look good. I mean there is so much shit going on at HLA, kids are having sex in the bathroom. I would know I was one of them."*****
Last time I checked, schoosl didn't tell you to strip naked, bend over, spread your cheeks, squat down, cough, turn around, pick up your balls, put your arms out, turn your hands over, bend down and shake out your hair.
Why does HLA do this? Oh, just so you don't say this doesn't happen, I've seen it done dozens of times."
How about this type of behavior? This smacks of CHILD MOLESTER. There is absolutely NO professional organization that uses this type of procedure. It looks like the counselor wanted to see this poor kids genitals bouncing around more than look for contraband.
>>>>>"... when i was 13 after like my second visit during my strip search that ted guy asked me to uncup my balls and jump up and down, and i was like why? and he was like nevermind u can get dressed..."<<<<<
"
This Ted guy sounds like a real sick-o. Is he still inspecting children's genitals for his own gratification?
-
On 2006-01-01 05:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm sorry, but you'll have to enlighten me. What boarding schools that you know of use this type of procedure on their students?
*****"Chris Legacy posted 4/30/05 10:37 PM
-----------------------------------------
As I said before I have more to say. I know first hand that you actually do take your underwear off and you squat down and cough(It really is uncomfortable). I who have no drug problems had to do this. The school had no sence of trust in the student body. Yeah there were Honor Societies there, but to join them still got you no more trust by both staff, and students cause there was the fear you were going to snitch to look good. I mean there is so much shit going on at HLA, kids are having sex in the bathroom. I would know I was one of them."*****
Last time I checked, schoosl didn't tell you to strip naked, bend over, spread your cheeks, squat down, cough, turn around, pick up your balls, put your arms out, turn your hands over, bend down and shake out your hair.
Why does HLA do this? Oh, just so you don't say this doesn't happen, I've seen it done dozens of times."
The more I read, the more disgusted I am. I would never send my child into the "care" of this place.
There's just too much smoke. So much smoke that one can't see the multiple fires.
-
Bingo! Much smoke, many fires...Red Flags...
Where is ISACCORP?????
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Whatever, who gives a fuck...
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On 2006-01-12 19:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Whatever, who gives a fuck..."
Well, I do. And so do many concerned parents. They feel it's important to let others know that this place uses abusive, counterproductive methods to implement their useless, ineffective program.
Unfortunately, your obtuse commentary serves the sole purpose of keeping this information obscured to people who need to be reading it so they don't send their child into a situation where they will be abused and receive no psychiartric help for their problems.
Why don't you just start a new thread called "Who Gives A Fuck?" and have it, man. You seem to have a lot of unresolved feelings about HLA, so why not get them off your chest?
-
On 2006-01-01 06:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-01 05:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm sorry, but you'll have to enlighten me. What boarding schools that you know of use this type of procedure on their students?
*****"Chris Legacy posted 4/30/05 10:37 PM
-----------------------------------------
As I said before I have more to say. I know first hand that you actually do take your underwear off and you squat down and cough(It really is uncomfortable). I who have no drug problems had to do this. The school had no sence of trust in the student body. Yeah there were Honor Societies there, but to join them still got you no more trust by both staff, and students cause there was the fear you were going to snitch to look good. I mean there is so much shit going on at HLA, kids are having sex in the bathroom. I would know I was one of them."*****
Last time I checked, schoosl didn't tell you to strip naked, bend over, spread your cheeks, squat down, cough, turn around, pick up your balls, put your arms out, turn your hands over, bend down and shake out your hair.
Why does HLA do this? Oh, just so you don't say this doesn't happen, I've seen it done dozens of times."
How about this type of behavior? This smacks of CHILD MOLESTER. There is absolutely NO professional organization that uses this type of procedure. It looks like the counselor wanted to see this poor kids genitals bouncing around more than look for contraband.
>>>>>"... when i was 13 after like my second visit during my strip search that ted guy asked me to uncup my balls and jump up and down, and i was like why? and he was like nevermind u can get dressed..."<<<<<
"
This definitely sounds like a sexual predator. This has "pedophile" written all over it.
Anybody know if this sick bastard is still there getting off on adolescent testicles?
NASTY.
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Nope. He got fired a few years ago.
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On 2006-01-15 18:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nope. He got fired a few years ago."
What was he fired for?
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Don't know. By law, that kind of stuff is kept pretty confidential.
-
Let me ask you another question. Why are you posting anonymously on two threads and as "abc123" on another?
You are one SHADY LADY.
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Maybe one reason no one answers your questions is because anytime someone offers an intelligent answer on this board you, and others, start calling them names and changing the subject, or start questioning who they really are. You say you want to stay on the topic, but then you stray from it when the conversation gets real. Robert Bruce is the only one who remotely tries to keep a serious conversation going.
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You forgot to log in again.
Why do you post with a username when you're trying to "prove a point," but post anonymously while evading any questions or trying to bash others?
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HLA is okay with releasing students records to non employees, its okay with lying to the state about its purpose, its okay with lying to parents about numerous issues.
But its not okay telling why an employee was fired.
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Nobody released students records to non employees. That was your assumption, and it was incorrect.
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Is that you hiding there Bullfrog?
Yes records were released, youve proven that for us.
I was correct in my assumption.
Oh and thank you for saving us more time by not arguing the other points mentioned. Even to someone as simple minded as yourself the truth is becoming obvious.
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I am prepared to swear in a court of law that that did not occur Robert. Yes this is SHH. I did not get any information for use on this board or any other board from a file, nor did anybody else give it to me. I do not have access to any files at HLA and nobody would have given me access either. And yes, your assumption was incorrect. I dont care whether you personally believe me or not, however I do care about your lies you are spreading about me on this board, and I know what the truth is and you, Robert are not telling the truth. I did not get any personal information from a file. Period.
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On 2006-01-15 18:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Maybe one reason no one answers your questions is because anytime someone offers an intelligent answer on this board you, and others, start calling them names and changing the subject, or start questioning who they really are. You say you want to stay on the topic, but then you stray from it when the conversation gets real. Robert Bruce is the only one who remotely tries to keep a serious conversation going."
This is simply false. I would challenge you to find a single poster who sticks to the topic more steadfastly than I do.
I also haven't called you any names.
I can't help but notice, though, that you will only selectively answer meaningless points, but consistently avoid important questions.
-
On 2006-01-16 05:39:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
I can't help but notice, though, that you will only selectively answer meaningless points, but consistently avoid important questions.
:nworthy: :nworthy: