Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: ramprato on October 18, 2002, 09:54:00 AM
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People, you guys might want to give them a little feedback at Yahoo.com. Noelle is the big subject there today. Here is their link: http://post.news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs ... daughter_1 (http://post.news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=NEWS&action=l&ft=1&board=37138445&sid=37138445&title=Questions%20in%20Noelle%20Bush%20Drug%20Case%0A&tid=apjebbushsdaughter&date=10-03-2002&url=story.news.yahoo.com%2Fnews%3Ftmpl%3Dstory%26u%3D%2Fap%2F20021003%2Fap_on_re_us%2Fjeb_bush_s_daughter_1)
and.... my 2cents...... http://news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?acti ... 5&mid=3856 (http://news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=m&board=37138445&tid=apjebbushsdaughter&sid=37138445&mid=3856)
Ken
[ This Message was edited by: ramprato on 2002-10-18 06:54 ]
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I reced your poston the yahoo board. Everyone here should pop over and rec it.
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Thank you.....:smile:
Ken
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Can someone explain shortly on what is going on with her? I don't feel like reading a ton of stuff.. sorry.
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Do yourself a favor Lady and point your search engine on Noell, and READ-UP. That is how we learn.
Great story, Family secrets, drugs, drug warrior hypocrisey.
Bill
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We should call 'ya "Lazy Jerricho"
Give me a fucking break--read the fucking news.
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On 2002-10-21 12:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
We should call 'ya "Lazy Jerricho"
Give me a fucking break--read the fucking news.
I wonder what you should be called? Something unpleasant no doubt.
Anyway, Lady Jerricho, from my understanding the deal is Noelle was in some posh rehab for trying to get drugs with a fake prescription among other things, and the staff found crack cocaine hidden in her shoe. The judge sentenced her to 10 days in jail.
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Our fair lady, princess of the estate of Florida (Jeb's Florida, according to his ... ehrrr ... I mean the state's website) isn't in what most people outside of our funkly little brother/sisterhood, would call a posh rehab. It's just a normal, typical county/state funded rehab used frequently by the drug courts.
The big issue was that the staff declined to turn her in. Some of the other clients got wind of that and got pissed off and called 911. I listened to a recording of the 911 tape somewhere, can't remember where off-hand. According to the other clients, they were fed up with this little WASP getting special treatment. They said that they were trying to get their lives together with their kids at the facility and here's this spoiled bratt bringing crack around. They also said, if I remember right, that if it had been any of them they would have been hauled off in cuffs on the spot.
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Geez people, can you not see the point me and anonomous both made? I do think I said it a touch nicer, but I FELT the same way. Those who walk the world clueless simply say WHOA when something happens. PATHETIC. Those who maintain knowledge of current events can have some say in how they play out. Or at least not be shocked.
If somebody is too lazy to read up on something, I can assure you that they do NOT APPRECIATE the time you took to learn it, type it, then explain it.
Critical think folks.
The center for drug free living is POSH compared to SAFE right up the road. My previous post called CFDFL posh as a relative term only.
Noelle is just like me in more than one way. So is the pain of her family.
I just wish they would use thier position to influence drug war policy.
Hey anon, you can set up a name and get more "cred" without giving a clue as to who you are.
My afternoon rant. I feel better now.
I just get very frustrated by our societies LACK of political, world and general store of knowledge. It does matter people. We are about to go to WAR with a sovereign nation which MAY have nukes and ignore tough action on Korea who ALREADY has the damned things while we have PAID them 500 million dollars since 1994 to NOT build 'em. Why? Do you know. You should if you want to have credibility dealing with the press, courts or government officials in STRAIGHT matters...
Bill
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We are and have been for two decades an insular & provencial nation.There is a corrolary between what is happening to our democracy and what was being done to us in the cult.
Lifton's read about him (http://www.famoustexans.com/karlrove.htm).
THE DEMAND FOR PURITY - I think we all know how 'shrub' renounced his drinkin' days and his taste for white powders. He reads a Bible study every day, and prays for guidance. He percieves himself as chosen by God for this job, and openly proclaims his desire to see this nation more towards a more pure and godly culture.
CONFESSION - Ok ok, I had a hard time explaining this one in terms of a national process of thought reform, perhaps someone else can offer some ideas about how the Bushies are using this aspect?
SACRED SCIENCE- Surely we can all see how the Bushies hold their own ideology as the 'one true good message' and try to paint any other doctrine as evil, feckless and incoherant. Incidentally, the left wing of the democratic party is no better about this process.
LOADING THE LANGUAGE - They keep hoping that they can load the language, and to some extent the press really helps out with terms like 'Taliban Johnny', refusing to translate 'Al Queda' into English so that it sounds more spooky (incidentally it means The Base) or using the term Allah in place of God- for us it is God, for them it is Allah. It would be too great a burden to refer to their diety by the same name as ours, surely he could not justify such actions against us.
DOCTRINE OVER PERSON - Perhaps the best example of this on a national basis is the passing of Minimum Mandatory Drug Sentencing Laws in the eighties and to a lesser bu no less damaging extent 'Three Strikes' here in California during the mid ninties. The chance for an individual to be judged based on the actual circumstances of their crime or alleged crime is removed in exchange for maintaining a doctrine of toughness and agressive sentencing. The people our system was designed to trust with these decisions, judges, are reduced to automatons enforcing a doctrine that is wholly different that the original one- The Constitution -which specifically and intentional placed person above doctrine.
DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE - For a good example of how this works in the real world today, watch the recent CNN special regarding the uprising at Maser-e Sharif. In particular listen to the CIA agents talking to John Walker, just at the end of the program, as they tell him that his choice comes down to one decision- does he want to die here, or somewhere else. His right to exist had been dispensed in the minds of those agents long ago- they were only hoping to get more info from him. They had established i ntheir own minds that he was one of 'them' and not one of 'us' any longer. I make no claims as to how correct they may have been or not been.
"We are now trusting to those who are against us in position and principle, to fashion to their own form the minds and affections of our youth... This canker is eating on the vitals of our existence, and if not arrested at once, will be beyond remedy." --Thomas Jefferson to James Breckinridge, 1821. ME 15:315
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I thought that this closely (http://thestraights.com/gop.htm) the founders of the cult are tied to the Bushies, it seems to me that the concepts of Lifton's criteria are a pretty good explanation of how they intend to 'change' the country back into their idealized vision- something along the lines of 'Father Knows Best'.
The sad truth is, as far as I can tell, we were all just cannon fodder in their cultural war, our own personal problems were of no consequence. The grand objective of destroying all things liberal that grew out of the beat generation and those they influenced was the only thing that really mattered.
[ This Message was edited by: James on 2002-10-22 02:15 ]
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Man I am hyped on this one tonight.
I wanted to make a point about Lady Jerricho's request for a summary, and the respones that it triggered. For clarity's sake, I am not make statements about Lady J, or those who responded, but about my own experiences, and how these postings made me consider my own life.
One of the after-effects of the program for me was apathy towards seeking out information. I had this sense, sometimes conscious( paranoid) sometimes unconscious, that I was not smart enough or good enough to know some things. Or that some knowledge was withheld from me for nefarious or vague reasons- as it was in the cult.
I would pass it off to myself as my own choice. I was too busy to learn this, or had too little access to learn this. But as I began to wake up last year I began to understand that the cult had long-ranging effects in this regard.
I think that I had been programmed to depend on others to inform me, to tell me what to think, and to take responsibility for my exposure to knowledge.
The first of these effects to wear off was with respect to telling me what to think. I was happy to spout off about what I thought was right/wrong in the world, or in a forum or discussion with other people. But my opinions were most often woefully uninformed by anything other than my own cultic experiences.
The other aspects took more time, and even today I struggle with the stresses of returning to school, I want to go and learn, but I have great concern over being in a group environment etc etc.
That is all ...not sure it means much..but it is what crossed my mind. And before anyone gets defensive or offended by what I said, this is not about you, it is about my own process of learning what the cult did to me, what the cult-induced personality does inside me, and how my true personality is still there and is much different.
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James, a key for me was finding what I wanted. If you truly pick a school major or job which you love, the people around you will share this with you.
A nice group is involved in things you approve of, and enjoy. Imagine liking going to work.
Then sign up. Enroll. Go. Especially when it REALLY sucks.
Then smile. Nobody can hold MY beltloop anymore...
Bill
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James,
I think you'd find taking some college classes to be very stimulating and rewarding. I had a lot of the same fears and doubts about going back to college after Straight, and man, what a long, strange trip it's been...Never thought I'd be so fascinated by physics or chemistry, and actually apply those principles in my daily work. Never dreamed I'd be able to succeed academically. It's never too late, either. I agree with you about the learned apathy from Straight...tough to shake.
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On 2002-10-21 11:30:00, Tampa survivor wrote:
Do yourself a favor Lady and point your search engine on Noell, and READ-UP. That is how we learn.
Great story, Family secrets, drugs, drug warrior hypocrisey.
Bill
Oh kiss my butt! I have 4 meetings to attend to at work this week and I'm extreamly busy and don't have time to read and endless thread of pages that turn into a book! So bite me!
Thank you Kosmonaut for telling me though, I appreciate it
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Hows that ass look that I am supposed to kiss. I am a picky guy you know, and the smarter a lady, the less beauty I require...
[ This Message was edited by: Tampa survivor on 2002-10-22 17:08 ]
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Thanks Bill. You appear to be a wise man that did not glean his acumen by depending on others to educate you on current events via second hand information. Thanks for the reply post. I have posted forever and credibility is not of interest to me at the present time. I could use my social security number as my name and give everyone my address and underwear size but I doubt it would lend anymore credibility to my posts. Besides what is the true difference between a Bill, a James, a lady J, a hedwigfan, a carmel, an antigen, or Me?? No difference really. Those that know me generally recognize my syntax and understand it is Me. Regardless thanks both for the post in agreement and the registration invitation.
"apathy towards seeking out information" secondary to the program won't work with me James. I understand the role of the whole experience and the affects on present day life all too well. However, your example was a shy analogy to Lady's request to be briefed of what is going on. She didn't "feel" like reading and assumed we "felt" like explaining it all to her. She fished for a response and had more than one bite! "four meetings this week" is equally as lamely-limp. There is much time to read threads and post, but no time to click a link??? The story was a tad shorter than "War and Peace" for crying out loud!!
Unregistered User Guy (/Girl?)
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You are right about the credibility thing. Words crafted via thought lend credence to a post. Not underwear size or names. A very good point taken.
Thank you. Thank for you for the compliments. I spend 2-3 hours a day reading everything from Drudge report and CNN to Nasa and international newspapers in order to learn more. The internet is the most amazing resource in human history, but many people are just "IMing" or playing solitaire with that fancy 1.6GHZ computer. I do not watch TV. My beloved Buccaneers on Sundays is pretty much it. We promote the joy of learning in my home. I will never be flight engineer on the space shuttle, but my son or daughter might. When my clients have interesting, unusual jobs or situations, I find the ability to understand SOMETHING they love indispensable.
James, my apathy level changed inversely in proportion to the seriousness of my responsibilities. You James are a smart and well written guy. Go do it. Whatever IT is. I know a lawyer or two who would like a memory and pen like yours.
Never let the bastards hold your beltloop...we escaped a long time ago.
Bill
[ This Message was edited by: tampa survivor on 2002-10-22 18:51 ]
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Anon-
Thanks for the input. Your opinion is valid and appreciated.
However, based on the work of several people, including but not limited to Ronald Burks recent Doctoral Thesis, Lifton (http://refocus.org/lifton.html), Giambalvo (http://hometown.aol.com/carol2180/index.htm) and Langone - I am inclined to disagree.
Let me suggest that our difference is one of perception. It is my impression that you percieve 'apathy towards aquiring information' as an excuse to remain ingnorant and under informed. It is not meant as such. My intention in my previous post is to provide some kind of understanding, an explanation that provides a pathway to changing the behavior, once it is identified and clearly associated with a post cult disorder situation.
On a sidebar note- The difference between registered and anonymous posting, at least in my case, is that it is my real name with my real email address attached to it. You may think that most of us will simply recognize your prose, but for new members it will not be so easy to determine which anonymous is which. Speaking for myself, I find it very difficult to determine who is who among unregistered postings.
I certainly do not mean to decry your choice to remain unregistered. I can only suggest that there is a difference, and despite your convictions to the contrary, it may well effect the level of credibility that others will assign to your statements.
In the same light my crappy syntax, poor spelling, and lousy typing will effect how some people view my statements. Your milage may vary.
James Lloyd
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I sail my white flag high in surrender to those with depth of both intellect and thought. James and Bill both of you are admirably well written and there is little that I respect more. I think this is the etiology of my dismay with Lady J's post(s).
James thank you for referencing your stance on the subject and frankly I agree to all with exception to the fact that, in my opinion, I do not believe it is applicable to Lady J's post, not to imply or inference that this was your intention (as you disclaimed the aforementioned by specifying that it was applicable only to your personal experience rather than to the situation regarding Lady J's request to be briefed on Noelle). Personally, I believe Lady failed to check the link and requested the information out of laziness rather than secondary to any stated post-cult disorder.
Regarding your commentary on registering versus posting anonymously, I reiterate the fact that credibility is not of importance to me in this particular thread. I am in fact a registered user (for what that is worth) and chose to take my jab(s) at Lady J anonymously which may be perceived as an act of cowardice to some, but to me, it was the logical thing to do and I will continue to do so in the future when I have something critical or negative in nature to say. I don't want to market myself as the board (or bored...) asshole with little else to do or say than criticize others. A flaming troll I am not. The posts that I make relevant to the cause are always made using my registered name.
Peace.
Unregistered User Guy (/Girl?)
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Dearest James and Anon,
I have to say I am am sitting here reading this thread and find it extensively humorous.
Please, please dont take this post as an insult....more like a burst of unappreciated laughter during a pause at a conference on tax law or something similary monotonous.
Oh dear, its not that I dont respect your opinions...I just find humor in the simplicity of Lady J's request, and the subsequent break down and complex analysis by the two of you. I feel like I am witnessing the creation of a heavily-worded contractual agreement between hot dog vendors and their heated negotiation on who will get to sell their dogs in what area of town. Its just a little ironic humor, thats all.
Someone could have given Lady J a quick run-down of Noelle's worthless situation in about 1/10th of the post space that was used in order to debate Lady J's intellectual priorities (a few did just that, but I say this only to better conceptualize my point). I mean, after all...in theory wasnt her post in and of itself a technical "pursuit" of information and knowledge? Click a link or ask a question....they both serve to initiate learning do they not?
Again, I am really not attempting to belittle or insult guys.....just bringing a little irony to the forefront.
Now back to that tax seminar....
[ This Message was edited by: Carmel on 2002-10-23 12:03 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carmel on 2002-10-23 12:05 ]
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I am curious, anon, what is it that drives you to post negative things? I can understand critical, for I too am critical of much in this forum and the world. But the negative stuff, personal attacks etc, what is it that drives this need or desire to say such things?
Please don't think this is an attack it is not. I am legitimately interested in the motivation.
I can see the irony that Carmel points up, and the point is well taken. Except that this is a forum, and the objective of the exercise is to participate in thoughtful discourse, the open exchange of ideas and hopefully the mutual enlightenment of all.
Lady J's original request led me to a series of self examinations, and in the full course of the exchange left me with a better understanding of my own condition- exactly why I come here to read and post.
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I remember when Reagan came to straight. My folks are Republicans all the way. It seems most people in straight had parents who were republican and middle to upper middle class. I don't talk politics anymore to my parents because it pisses me off. I am Libertarian and despise the power trip of the bushies. Noelle reminds me alot of me. After I got out of straight I started college, made good grades, lived at home until my parents who always did what straight told them to do finally found a joint or something. They kicked me out on the streets to make it on my own, just like straight taught them. Just like straight taught me I decided I was afuck up and I decided to go all the way down hill, trip every day and party all the time for years. I did a few stints in jail. This just goes to show more that I need help. I thought jail was good compared to straight. Now I realize that straight brainwashed me and my family and I just want my parents to acknowlege this before they die. Or should I just let them die and hold all of this in and hate myself. It has been hard after straight as well as all of yall know. Sorry Lady Jerricho that people were being mean to you. I think we all got enough of that in straight, so I appreciate your being up front and just asking for a little favor without being dished. Some things in straight I learned were good such as ampathy and sensitivity. I try to apply this every day and I like honesty although i have to admit it can get you in trouble at times i beleive it is the best way. Peace
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My parents acknowledge that the program was abusive in many ways, and my father says that he was always suspicious of what was happening at the cult.
However they also remain firm that they had few other options, traditional treatment programs were few and far between & expensive, I had redily admitted to being addicted- I thought I was- and the cult offered a cost effective option.
I can tell that to come to full grips with what I have learned - with what most of us know- would be extremely painful for them.
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It was not my intention to imply that all anon "negative" or critical posts are of my namesake. I don't post negative or critical posts often at all, this simply isn't the venue for such a thing and we did all have enough of that it STRAIGHT and like programs. I don't "personally attack" anyone. The motivation and drive for my response to lady j was simply aversion to laziness. I mean if she was too lazy (or even busy) to check the link it is inferred that others have the time, desire, and energy to fill her in and brief her of the event. For crying out loud--check the fucking link!! No?? I mean my position is simple and not as complex as your posts have suggested.
You said: "Lady J's original request led me to a series of self examinations, and in the full course of the exchange left me with a better understanding of my own condition- exactly why I come here to read and post"
If that is in fact the case, then lady J should be commended for enlightening you. I don't see Lady as yoda or any buddha high atop a mountain that helps me to understand revelations about my own condition.
Unregistered User Guy (/Girl?)
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And furthermore, James, I didn't mean that as a jab at you at all. To clarify, if she taught you something, great.
She taught me nothing.
Unregistered User Guy (/Girl?)
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Lazy, Lady J is. Learn to enlighten herself, she will not. Use the force Lady J! Click the link! Let it guide you!
Yeesh!
I gotta say, I think I am witnessing one of the biggest headgames of all time right now.
Lady J's request has lead us all on a road of self-discovery and self-analysis that will serve to create endless hours of deeper self-examination and speculation! For crying out loud....just go toss off and get it over with!
Oh I know I am being sarcastic. I apologize if I step on any toes...but lighten up a little guys! Life is short...and sitting around debating the intricasies of just how "short" short is....well, its a big waste of time! Its like debating the overall satisfaction of the "bun-length weinie" versus "the other" weinie. Does the weinie help us to look deeper within ourselves? Does the weinie espouse previously unknown truths? Do we really care if the weinie REALLY reaches the end of the bun so that we dont feel cheated by the weinie manufacturer? Hell no! But it tastes damn good. I think Yoda and Buddha would agree.
Well, at least I am amusing myself. Right?
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OH MY GOD! How perfect! You related Lady J to a weinie. There just couldn't be a better comparison. Bravo.
another unregistered user
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Actually, I wasnt relating Lady J to a weinie at all, I was relating the absurdity of this whole exchange to the absurdity of a weinie debate....but I digress....and OH NO YOU DONT...
I wont be dragged into some exchange about the meaning behind my own silliness and how it may or may not help others to see within themselves and so forth...no sir. Forget it! I am perfectly satisfied with my current weinie preference thank you very much!
My motto for this thread:
"A closed bun gathers no weinie"
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Well, now that we have determined that weinie size doesn't matter, Lady J is using the force rather than a mouse to surf the web, and anon and Carmel are a riot, let us return to our normal broadcast....
Bill
PS This thread got too serious fast. I think I prefer writing stuff like "Executive Inferno" better. But I did some thinking, as I bet we all have.
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Alright, is this about Noelle Bush? or entirely about me? Just move along and go forward with this because obviously everyone thinks I am not educated enough to understand the mentallity of most of you who are posting negativly about me, you know nothing about me other than the fact that I attended Straight too.. So don't judge what you don't know.
Thank you
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I do know that you and your buns are too much of a wienie (how the hell do you spell that?? German???) to check the link ("link" pardon the hot dog pun)!!
Frankly, ("Frank", pardon the hot dog pun, again, hehehe) I have no problem with your level of education and I am not judging you per se, but I did think it was a little lazy to request others to fill you in on the details of Mrs. Bush's crack (no sexual innuendo intended).
I hope in the future all STRAIGHT related books are also available on tape for those that haven't the time to read....Nothing personal, my lady. Just a faux paux (bad move) on your part that became the focal point of an extended thread that many relished in ("relish"...)
You controversial 'lil wiener devil you.
Unregistered User Guy (/Girl?)
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Wiener/Whiner???
Both applicable.
Unregistered User Guy(/Girl?)
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Thats "faux pas" Anon....someone make sure we getta copy of Berlitz's French on tape too!
You mistake the false pronunciation of "foks-pax" to be the actual spelling of the phrase, when in fact it is just merely that, a false pronunciation.
Now I would like to share with you all what the mis-spelling of Faux Pas has done for me personally, and how it has served to help me address several issues within myself. First off, I realize that by rudely pointing out Anon's misspelling of the phrase, I am in my own way committing a "faux pas" in doing so. This has made it clear to me that had I remained silent about his blunder, I would have been able to remain objective and non-judgemental....but alas, now I am no better than he is in my rude and pointless blather about correct spelling. In the future I will take this instance into consideration and attempt to re-structure my reactions so as not to commit said "faux pas".
Now everybody in unison....LOVE YA FO PAAAA!!
Oh, and thats weiner, a whiner would be someone who drinks excessively....or is that a wino........
Man, its a long long Friday.....
[ This Message was edited by: Carmel on 2002-10-25 13:13 ]
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It HAS been a long Friday and it's hard to believe it's not over...I guess that is relative to your time zone, my time zone dictates a few more hours at the daily grind. But alas, not deviate from the subject at hand...
Just to clarify, I didn't maul my french THAT badly Carmel, faux paux was my incorrect spelling, pronounced "fowe paw". I had as many doubts regarding my French spelling as I did my German "wiener". My commentary relative to the whiner statement would more represent "someone who whines" a'la the Saturday Night Live skit in the '70s (I can hear lady J: "someone tell what's happeennniiing I am just toooo busyyyyyy..."") versus "someone who wines" in the sense of guzzling vino (I hope that Italian spelling is correct, tehehe).
Now to postulate a little further on...
Kidding...have a good weekend, my friend.
Unregistered User Guy (/Girl?)
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You do the same...and yes..."vino" is correct. We agree! Splendid!
Fully Registered User Girl (Guy?)