Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Who Am I Discovery/Whitmore => Topic started by: Anonymous on March 11, 2005, 09:57:00 PM
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i am so shocked that people here are not getting the point that zita is a human child that a mother is completely exploiting in my opinion. joyce does not stop, ever, from what i have read.
it doesn't matter who put zita's name up on the board first, i don't know, I tried to search it, but in reality, it doesn't matter! the mother kept provoking the topic, never stopping and repeated the name over and over.
joyce was quick to be sure that letter she wrote, that really exposed the real joyce, was removed, why isn't she begging to have antigen remove her minors name? well, then joyce would be losing her attention. she makes a public statement on a isac website to further expose her daughter. it is a child! someday, this girl will see all this, and the i am sure from the letter joyce wrote, zita will fight back. now that will be a interesting day.
so joyce makes sure the letter that exposed her is removed, but has no concern about exploiting her daughter? what doesn't make sense here?
don't think i don't care about abuse, i do. but i do believe in justice to. if the police, ag, detectives or others believe or get concrete proof about this abuse, i bet it will be closed. i don't know whitmore, i know wwasp. i know they get away with alot, in my opinion, but in my opinion it has to do with with political power. i don'tknow that the whitmore is that big. maybe they are, but i can't even find them on the web. somewhere here it states they only have like 30 kids, so it is tiny. i think the state would have no problem closing them if there was concrete proof.
back to zita, it doeesn't matter who started it, it should end. but the mother needs to be stroked, in my opinion.
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If you're so concerned about this kid's privacy, then why do you keep bringing it up?
I already told you I agree w/ you on the issue. There's a LOT of content floating around here that should not be discussed publicly. I don't make those calls.
But this forum is not primarily about the parents who send their kids to these places. Maybe I should start one of those? This forum is about the programs, how they work, how they don't work and how they go about marketing. The whole idea is to give the sane people a look at the part of the story that the industry doesn't advertise.
Now, that said, I don't think that WWASP's immunity is entirely due to their own political power. I think the entire industry is getting a free ride. Lots of these places continue in business under various names after repeatedly being shown to be abusive and fraudulent.
I don't think the next criminal prosecution will do any more good than the last. The rest of the cult usually just moves on and pretends that whoever they threw to the wolves was the one and only bad seed and now everything's just hunkey dory.
I think this industry continues to grow for one very simple reason; there's a market for it. A totally credulous, well heeled (for the most part) market of parents who are willing to believe obvious lies.
So what do we do about that?Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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sorry if it seems like i am bringing it up a lot, but it seems everytime i say something about it, it is brushed off by blaming others. i just think that parents need to take accountability to. i know i did and still do. i wont share my childs story, it is not mine to share. i respect my child, i screwed up. so i guess i take offense with joyce using her daughter this way.
i guess we can agree to not agree on this. but i am concerned for the innocent child, well, may not be innocent, but is still a child and doesn't deserve what her mother is doing to her.
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Well this is the nature of the whole damned industry. Look here. http://helpyourteens.com/true_story.html (http://helpyourteens.com/true_story.html)
There's a mother actually making a career out of her daughter's private business. How would you like to go through college w/ that floating around the net?
Why are you focusing on this one detail? Why not get just as bent out of shape over stories about the one girl's allegedly loose sexual habits or the other's affinity for love drugs.
But again, this is not a forum primarily about the parents, though that certainly is a worthy and frequently touched on subtopic. This is a forum about the Whitmore in the context of a lot of forums mostly about the troubled parent industry.
Once in awhile, some smart ass kid will hijack the conversation and bring up something worth talking about. Hopefully, that'll start happening more frequently again soon.
How do you feel about the threats to divulge all the dirt these ppl say they're holding back if people don't shut up? What is it that these people want so badly for everyone to shut up about? That's part of how the industry "works". Intentionally or not, they set up a situation where young kids are encouraged, cajoled and/or frightened and harassed into divulging very personal material to a bunch of other kids. And this isn't the first time I've seen that information used to bludgeon anyone who comes off as critical of one of these programs.
Now that's the best case scenareo, where they just didn't realize what might happen. In this case, though, somehow a letter addressed to Mark which contained highly confidential information about a kid made it to the net.
I think that ought to give pause to every parent who has given these people confidential information about their kids. For CHRIST's sake, don't piss these people off!
In retrospect, is this kind of freeform 'group therapy' really such a good idea?
People everywhere enjoy believing things that they know are not true. It spares them the ordeal of thinking for themselves and taking responsibility for what they know.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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Your writing style seems amazingly similar to those posted by anon from Whitmore. Could this be a new form of deflection. Taking everyone off track of the real issue-posting a very private email concerning a minor and violating patient confidetiality! What they did was wrong morally, legally and yes even spiritually. Get off your soapbox and stop beating another dead horse. Posting that email was the most horrific act I have seen on this forum yet. Like Antigen said, we get your point. Move on. Have you not noticed the other names mentioned here by several other parents and kids. We are concerned parents expressing our stories. I really doubt you are here just out of curiosity. You show way too much interest in Joyce and her daughter. It is obvious in your persistance to make your point.
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it is a really sad day in america when you think that having pity for a child is deflection. i have no idea who any of the kids are. yes i have seen other names, gmom with her gdaughter but the gdaughter seems to be over 18 and posting herself.
zita is a helpless 12/13 year old.the mother is obviously exploiting her, and i am in shock. maybe because i actually know a very similar story, that happened in my family. i know the hurt, pain and destruction it can cause.
dont try to accuse me of being anything unless you know me. you don't. joyce has made sure this whole thread and the isac know all about her, richard and zita. it is sad.
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I don't quite understand how you feel Joyce's daughter is being exploited by Joyce. Joyce and her husband have filed formal charges. By coming forward publically they have put themselves on the chopping block. There are always those with an opposing opinion, which they are free to have.
But, I think, if you really take a look at what has been written, the only exploitation has come from the Whitmore and/or Whitmore supporters.
Without people willing to speak out, as the Harris' have, people like the Sudweeks will continue to take advantage of desperate parents and troubled teens. They will continue to use barbaric methods to munipulate and control these kids -- they will continue to abuse. They will continue to lie to parents about services they claim to provide.
The Harris' are performing a much-needed public service. We cannot let this sit on the back burner and be forgotten. It is not going to go away unless more people are willing to speak up.
My hat is off to Richard and Joyce Harris.
Susan Schacherer
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Did you or do you have a child at the Whitmore?? If the answer is NO then do not tell me or join in on a cause you know nothing about. Don't talk to me or anyone else about pain, destruction and pity!!
I am living the nitemare everyday with the damage that was caused at the Whitmore. I visited there several times over a year's time. It wasn't until the end that things started to make sense. Many names are used on this site by many people. Most on this site are familiar to the Whitmore or have experienced it in some shape or form.
There are a multitude of other topics on this site that cover other schools and programs. I have no interest in visiting any of them because I have no relationship to them. It would seem that you would have to have some kind of interest in the Whitmore or why visit this forum. Did you just close your eyes and put your cursor on one and click?? I doubt it. So again, if you have no stake or experience here, you have a LOT of catching up to do!
I would post my name and my child's name in a heartbeat but fear for the backlash that I have witnessed others experience. ANYONE who dares to use their name or tell a story that remotely resembles someone they can identify, becomes open season on this site!
I admire Joyce for having the courage to stand up and say who she is. It gives her credibility because there is a name attached to her post. Those who post with no name appear less credible because it could be the same person posting numerous times to make a point. Unfortunatley, I fall into this category. However, I assure you I am a real parent with real issues from a very real experience with the Whitmore!
Yes, Zita's name has been used on this site and yes she is a victim. But again MOST of us on the site know who many of the names are. I personally have met many of them. Like someone else said, 90 some percent of the general public has no knowledge of this site. There would be no interest in coming here unless you have a concern with placing a child or have already had the experience of placement. Make sense??
So tell us... what is your story?? How did you really get here. You are anonymous, your child is protected. Give us something of value to walk away with instead of judging other parents that may have walked in your shoes.
I have a child that is also a victim and I feel nothing but compassion and support for Joyce. The pity I feel is for those children now home who have no one to talk to or have no one who will believe the horror stories I have heard. There are many children who keep silent because they have been labled "habitual liars." We as parents sent them there to learn to tell the truth. Imagine the twisted irony they now feel when they want to tell the truth but fear they won't be believed.
It was an excrutiating reality to learn we as parents spent over $40,000 to have our child abused mentally, physically and God knows what else! Very tough pill to swallow! NO parent wants to hear that. The kids already feel guity for all the trouble they caused prior to placement at the Whitmore. They don't want to cause any more heartache and guilt on the parent's part. Keep in mind, my child didn't tell me what happened! I found out through others that witnessed it!! Only then when I confronted was it confirmed!
By the way... every story about my child was told by a different child in a different state who had NO knowledge I had spoken to any other kids! There is no way they could have possibly gotten togeter and plotted to tell me the SAME story. None of the kids had spoken to each other after coming home. So keep in mind there are MANY other stories out there you have not heard besides Joyce's. How is your curiosity now?
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I think Anon's got a point. There are some issues that I don't think should be laid out publicly. They've filed a complaint. It's up to the DA to decide whether or not to file charges. I'm glad they haven't gone into a lot of detail publicly about the specifics of that complaint. I hope they never will. But that's just my advice.
But there's a big difference between the way the Harrises are telling about how they and their child were victimised and the Sudweeks disclosing confidential info about that kid that was given to them in the course of seeking treatment for the kid. They're the kid's parents and they have to make the decisions about what is and is not the proper way to go about protecting their kid from the abuse they've alleged. The Sudweeks never had any kind of authorization to tell you or me or anyone else the contents of those private conversations.
Can't you see that, anon?
I just want ppl looking on to take note that it's a really, really bad idea to divulge this kind of personal information to people you don't really know that much about.
Now onto the method of treatment. From what I've read here and on the Whitmore blog, it seems to be structured around the same basic type of peer group therapy as they used at Straight. I heard so much excruciatingly personal material in those group sessions I just wanted to cut off my ears. And, just like we've seen here, kids who had this private information would use it against each other. This is what they called "confrontation therapy". Ugly, isn't it?
It's odd, I think, to see this happen in public like this. Some of this trash talking back and forth sounds just like a group session to me. But we never let outsiders see that side of things. It was sort of verboten. Of course, if you tried to sue them or something then it would come up in court. And they'd have higher phase kids go and do speaking engagements or speak at open meetings and divulge some of this themselves.
Evidently, all the kids and all the staff have access to this very confidential information (true or not) about these kids and their families. And, evidently, these folks are not above using that information as a weapon.
Do you think that's a good idea? Do you think this is the first time they've done this to a kid? Hell, it's not even the first time in the past month that I've seen private information about former Whitmore kids used as a weapon against them by people who claim to defend the Whitmore.
I hope those kids all realize that most readers to this forum have been there. Personally, I don't believe half of that trash. I know how people tend to exagerate stories about their horrible past or even incidents that occure during "treatment" under the circumstances you describe. So don't think everyone believes every word or is as judgmental as the people making these accusations.
Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
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Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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On 2005-03-12 06:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"it is a really sad day in america when you think that having pity for a child is deflection.
It just seems so one sided. Do you have the same pitty for Joey? The story is that he got into trouble for sneaking a phone call home, they had "group" on him and it got physical. When he went public w/ that info, a bunch of Whitmore kids (and again, I certainly hope it was kids, because it would be unforgivable for adults to act this way) came on here and said he was drunk and violent and that we should not believe him.
Hanna's been pretty well torn up too. And I understand she got into trouble for calling her parents too. Do you have any sympathy for Hanna?
How about Leah? Nothing there for Leah?
All of these families went to the Whitmore for help w/ sensitive family issues. Now all of them are having that sensitive family matter used against them in retaliation for criticizing the Program.
The question is who's exploiting who? Or, in baser terms, who's f***in who and where'd the money go?
Arms in the hands of citizens [may] be used at individual discretion...in private self-defense...
-- John Adams, (1788)
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No one is exploiting our daughter except the Sudweeks. When we filed abuse against the Sudweeks we stated we would not discuss any details, and we have not. Any private, confidential information about our daughter, including her name, was published by them.
We also will not fold to any form of CURRENT blackmail, telephone, or email threats. This form of criminal intimdation to try and force us drop charges has been turned over to the proper authorities.
Judge me as you choose, but we, as parents will continue to support and participate in all on-going investigations.
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who are you kidding this website is about a couple of sick people who like to TRY to bring other people into their darkened sicko minds. this is not at all about the kids. this is about Ginger still holding a grudge because she was sent to a BAD program, because she was a troubled teen. and a couple other of you ol bittys. who else would waist their life on the talk crap excuse me lieing webpage. none of you have your facts straight then the truth is told and you delete it. WHAT? its obvious what is going on. dont you think if the whitmore was so bad. something would have been done by now. and dont you think if sudweeks were so bad. they would have been shut down a long time ago.
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No, I don't think they would already be shut down. The program that I was in went on abusing kids for years after kids started reporting abuse. They were just dismissed as disgruntled druggies who didn't "work" the program. The director inspired either intense hatred or complete devotion, much like Whitmore seems to do. In the end the director of the program I was in did end up in court with about $15 million or so in judgments against him for abuse. Its just a shame that he was allowed to continue the abuse for so many years before people finally listened.
The deletion you speak of was not just any old post. It was a private email that was sent to the Sudweeks in the course of "treatment" for their child to give them a better understanding of what the daughter's 'issues' were. To allow that to be posted on a public forum is immoral and unethical. Ginger's ethics appear to be intact.Locate the blind spot in the culture--the place where the culture isn't looking, because it dare not--because if it were to look there, its previous values would dissolve.
Terence McKenna
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Bash Joyce Harris all you like. Posting her name publicly caused one parent to believe the placement of a minor child was wrong and that child was removed from Whitmore immediately. The Sudweeks and the referring person Sue Scheff didn't like that AT ALL. So of course Mrs. Harris is going to be bashed!
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ANON asked wouldn't Whitmore have been "shut down a long time ago." The investigation of abuse against the Sudweeks has only been going on since the later part of November...that is LESS than 4 months. That is not a LONG TIME AGO for a criminal investigation, you know.
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i would think that if the criminal investigation had enough evidence they ceratinly would have closed it immediately sort of like the closings in mexico with casa and others. just to state this again, the attory general in utah claims there is no charges, no pending investigation, and whitmore is clear on all counts. seems this is hard for some to digest, but that is it.
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i just did a search on susan schaucher. i dont think you are going to like what i pulled up. how dare you make up stories and slander the sudweeks when you have a past like this. i better check with my lawyer to see if it is legal for me to put this stuff up. you have just lost all credibility. It must be legal if you are doing all this crap to the sudweeks. i cant believe you
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Joyce Harris you are a one sick in the head lady. I was there when your daughter came and I was there when your daughter left. It's sad to know that she had to leave so soon she was a one messed up kid because of you and she sure could of used the help and being away from you really started to help her. She didn't get abused in any way you don't have to be mad just because the whitmore can't be run the way you want it to. stop going around sharing your tears :cry2: with the whole world you are in this all by yourself
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WHEN MY PARENTS SENT ME TO THE SUDWEEKS THEY DIDNT HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING. I HAD THE BEST TIME OF MY LIFE AND THE THINGS I LEARNED I HAVE USED TO THIS DAY. I TRY TO SEE THEM EVERY YEAR, AS ALOT OF US DO. I WAS SURPRISED WHEN THEY MOVED TO UTAH. THEY HAVE BEEN IN THE BOONIES FOR I THINK 20 YEARS. THEY WERE BURNED OUT OF CANADA. NO LITTERALLY! PEOPLE CAN BE TERRIBLE. THEY SHOT THEIR HORSES AND TOOK THE REST OF THE ANIMALS. DURING THE WINTER WHILE THEY WERE IN MEXICO, AND BRYAN WAS CARETAKING. ALL THIS HAPPENED BECAUSE OF A TROUBLED TEEN THEY HAD TRIED TO HELP. READ ABOUT IT. THAT BOY DIDNT HAVE TO PAY TO LIVE THERE OVER 5 YEARS EITHER. I LIVED WITH HIM. WHEN I READ THE STUFF YOU WRITE, I CANT SEE HOW ANYONE BELIEVES IT. ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS TALK TO PEOPLE WHO KNOW. THESE PEOPLE DONT KNOW. THE PEOPLE IN CANADA STOLE, BURNED, DESTROYED ALL THEIR PRIVATE POSSESIONS.THEY STILL GO THERE WITH THE KIDS BUT IT WILL NEVER BE THE SAME. IT WAS THE SAME THING AS HERE WITH THE SLANDER. NOBODY KNEW THE TRUTH. AND THE ONES WHO DID WERE TOO AFRAID TO SPEAK UP. JEALOUS PEOPLE, BITTER PEOPLE, PEOPLE WHO DONT HAVE ANY IDEA, JUST STUPID GOSSIP. HEY GO SEE WHAT THEY DO IT WILL SHOCK THE DAYLIGHTS OUT OF YOU. THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO DESTROY THESE GOOD PEOPLE? I DO NOT UNDERSTAND? SO FAR THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF ANY THING BUT MAYBE HUMAN ERE. OUR PARENTS DIDNT KNOW WHAT TO DO WHEN WE WERE MAKING THEIR LIFE HELL. THEY ASKED CHERYL AND MARK AND THEY TOOK THE CHANCE ON US. NOW THEY ARE IN UTAH, IT LOOKS LIKE THEY ARE GETTING SOME MONEY FOR THIS. GOOD FOR THEM. HOW MUCH DO YOU REALLY THINK ALL OF WHAT THEY DO COSTS? WHY WOULD OTHER PROGRAMS BE SO MUCH MORE. CHECK IT OUT. LOOKS LIKE A PRETTY GOOD DEAL AT WHITMORE. WHY ARE YOU LOOKING FOR EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO MAKE THEM LOOK BAD. WHAT IS YOUR MOTIVE. DONT TELL ME ABUSE OF ANY KIND. BECAUSE I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT ISNT TRUE. AND DONT TELL ME BECAUSE ONE OF THE KIDS WHO LIVED THERE ONCE SAID THIS OR THAT. NOW THEY ARE THE PROVEN LIARS. AND DONT TELL ME BECAUSE THE PARENTS FEEL RIPPED OFF. DID THEY NOT CHECK IT OUT. WHY WOULD THEY HIRE SOMEONE ELSE TO TAKE THEIR KID THERE FOR THEM? WAS THEIR KID OUT OF CONTROL. THIS IS REALLY PRETTY EASY TO SEE, WHY ARE THERE SO MANY PEOPLE WITH THEIR EYES CLOSED. WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO SHUT THEM DOWN. LISTEN TO THE KIDS WHO HAVE BEEN THERE AND START SEEING THE TRUTH. I CANT BELIEVE YOU THINK THOSE LIES ARE TRUE! THEY ARENT. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS CHECK FOR YOURSELF. CALL D.C.F.S. IN SAN ANTONIO SEE IF JOYCE IS LIEING. THATS WHAT THAT EMAIL FROM HER SAID. SHE IS A LIAR. ANY ONE SUPPORTING THOSE LIES IS TOO. SO EVERYONE STOP LYING. READ ABOUT CANADA. IT DOESNT SAY MARK IS A LIAR! IT DOESNT SAY HE ABUSED ANY ANIMALS. IT SAYS HE OWNED THE PROPERTY SO HE IS RESPONSIBLE TO THE S.P.C.A. WHO BY THE WAY ARE TRYING TO KEEP A JOB. PRETTY CLOSED MINDED PEOPLE. I SAT IN COURT AND WATCHED THEM LIE UNDER OATH. ALSO IF MONEY IS BECOMING THE ISSUE.WHY DONT YOU CHECK TO SEE HOW MANY KIDS WHO WERE ENROLLED ACTUALLY PAID THEIR TUITION. PUT SOME NUMBERS TOGETHER. ADD UP ALL THEY DO. AND YES THEY EAT 3 GOOD MEALS A DAY. I MEAN GREAT MEALS. MAYBE THERE ARE SOME KIDS WHO WANT TO LIE ABOUT THIS BUT IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE 90 PERCENT ARE TELLING YOU THE TRUTH. DO YOU REALLY THINK THEY ARE BRAINWASHED? THAT IS THE BIGGEST JOKE OF ALL. WHEN I WAS THERE THE KIDS COULD LEAVE ANYTIME THEY WANTED. ITS NOT LIKE WHAT YOU THINK. AT ALL. IT IS A SCHOOL. A GOOD SCHOOL WITH CERTIFIED TEACHERS. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT YOU KEEP LYING ABOUT THAT TOO. YOU ARE SO FRUSTRAITING. HOW DUMB DO YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE. I GUESS THEY ARE PRETTY DUMB IF THEY DONT CHECK TO SEE IF YOU ARE TELLING THE TRUTH. YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. GO SEE FOR YOURSELF. MORMONS ARENT WHAT YOU SAY EITHER. IN CANADA, THEY DIDNT HAVE A CHURCH. WE HAD CHURCH IN THE LIVING ROOM. WHEN I SAW THEM IN UTAH, I SPENT THE NIGHT WITH THEM. THE KIDS DONT HAVE TO GO TO CHURCH. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT. WHAT YOU ARE LETTING THEM DO TO THEM ABOUT THEIR RELIGION IS SO WRONG. YET YOU COMPLAIN THAT MRS. HARRIS CONFIDENTIALITY WAS BROKEN. I CANT BELIEVE IT. YOU HAVE PICTURES OF THEIR SACRED GARMENTS. REMINDS ME OF PICTURES ON T.V. IN IRAQ WHEN THEY BURNED THE AMERICAN FLAG. MADE ME CRY. THIS MAKES ME CRY. FIRST CANADA NOW U.S. I CANT BELIEVE HOW STRONG THEY ARE. AND HOW MEAN SOME PEOPLE CAN BE. THEY TAUGHT ME TO LOVE. BUT I COULD NEVER BE AS STRONG AS THEM. PLEASE LEAVE THEM ALONE.
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Dont speak to officer kimble like Joyce said too. talk to the cheif of police. you can know he truth. the Sudweeks are good people.
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Bean, you just don't listen to those phone calls you get from Whitmore students, and please don't follow their advise to you, ok?
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Anon w/ the caps, don't you think it's funny that wherever these people go, everybody seems to be out to get them? Why is that?
And yes, the judge in Canada did state that he didn't believe Mark's testimony (either time around). He said that it looked to him like one long string of excuses.
Speaking of horses and conflicting stories, which is the truth about Leah's horse? Are the Suds sueing her for boarding her horse at the mansion? Or was it someone else's horse, which she stole? Or are they sueing her for boarding their own horse?
Obviously, one of more of these must be false because they can't all be true. So.... which is it?I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist
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WHY DONT YOU READ THE WHOLE THING INSTEAD OF TAKING WORDS OUT OF CONTEXT WHICH I NOTICE YOU DO ALOT. THE JUDGE NEVER ONCE SAID MARK SUDWEEKS WAS A LIAR, HE SAID ALOT TO THE OPPOSITE. I CANT TELL YOU ABOUT THE GIRLS HORSE BUT FROM WHAT I HAVE HEARD, THERE IS NO QUESTION HEAR. WHY DO YOU CHOOSE TO BELIEVE A GIRL LIKE HER. WHY DID IT TAKE HER A YEAR TO DECIDE TO COME AND GET HER HORSE? DOESNT MAKE SINCE. WHATS WORSE THE SUDWEEKS WERE IN TOWN AND SHE KNEW THEY WERE AT CHURCH. I THINK ITS A BIT STRANGE, THAT SHE WAITED TILL THEY WERE GONE. AND THAT SHE TOOK THINGS FROM THE BARN THAT WERENT HERES. SHE ALSO LIED ABOUT THE POLICE BEING THERE. THEY TOLD HER FROM THE POLICE STATION TO GO AHEAD AND TAKE THE HORSE IF SHE COULD PROVE THAT IT WAS HERS, BUT IF SHE COULDNT OR IF SHE OWED THEM ANY MONEY SHE BETTER BE READY FOR COURT. THEY NEVER ESCORTED HER. OR ELSE THEY ARE LYING. ALSO WHY DID SHE CALL THEM TO BRAG ABOUT WHAT SHE DID. SHE SOUNDS LIKE A SPITFUL GIRL TO ME. KNOWING MARK I DONT THINK HE WOULD PRESS CHARGES WITHOUT TALKING TO HIS LAWYER. I THINK SHE WILL BE IN FOR A RUDE AWAKENING IF THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM IS WHAT IT SHOULD BE. THE BOTTOM LINE IS THE LAW, SAYS IF YOU LEAVE A HORSE LIKE LEAH DID, EVEN IF SHE DIDNT GIVE THE HORSE TO THEM SHE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FEED AND CARE OF THE HORSE. SO IT LOOKS LIKE SHE WILL HAVE TO PAY UP. PERSONALLY IF THE HORSE IS AS UGLY AND OLD AS THEY SAY SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF TO LEAVE THE WHOLE THING ALONE. AND THEN SHE CALLED THE HUMANE SOCIETY. ALL THEY DID WAS CONFIRM THAT SUDWEEKS TAKE VERY GOOD CARE OF ALL THEIR ANIMALS. SO THINGS ARENT WORKING OUT THE WAY SHE PLANNED ESPECIALLY IF SHE TOOK THINGS FROM THE PROPERTY AFTER TRESPASSING.
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Hey i was there. ya leah is more than spitful, I actually feel sorry for her. i still cant believe she was on x at Trins wedding. Thats because she was Jealous she wasnt in her line. It used to make me sick how Cheryl and Mark were so good to her and she would just stab in the back. I use to get Jealous of all the time Cheryl and Trin gave Leah. Its too bad she was so ungrateful, she had everything going for her. Why do you think she is still in Utah. Thats because Cheryl was trying to help her. But once Leahs grandma came into the picture Leah really changed. It was drugs and boys everyday and night. She was driving Trins truck for almost a year with no license. Her mom didnt know, until Cheryl told her. But im sure her grandma knew. No i know her grandma knew. I couldnt believe it especially as bad a driver as Leah was. Leah told us she hated her grandma because she could get her to do anything for her but that she would never tell her that because she spent so much money on her. Trins x was drivin down the road and she flashed him and begged him to take her to vegas. He wouldnt sleep with her so she dumped him. to tell you the truth i really doubt Trever ever liked her. She barely made it through school probably by lying to all her teachers. All the stores in provo and University mall watch when she comes in their stores because she is such a theif. She has a terrible reputation. Im sure she will leave Utah when she runs out of stores to steal from. Leah really did start to get it. Aaron used to just laugh at us because we all wanted to believe her lies to us about how sorry she was and how she wanted to change. She screwed him and every boy in the program over. It makes me mad because even after all this Cheryl said she still loves her and Casy. Thats Cheryl for you. She loves you too Elliot. I quess people like that always get treated like this. Look what they did to J.C.
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So Cheryl loves Leah, Casie and Elliott?
Sure GLAD she doesn't love ME!!!
She lies about Leah, calls Leah on the phone and threatens her, and then files a SLAPP suit against the girl for 5K just because SHE LOVES HER, HUH?
She sends emails to Casies, torments her on the phone night and day, lies to the girl's mother about her, makes the poor girls beat the hell out of her friends while at Whitmore just because SHE LOVES HER, HUH?
And poor Ellitott, she accuses him...like she does EVERYBODY of breaking into her computer at the Whitmore, tells him the FBI are after him, and then has kids call him and tell him to do the world a FAVOR and kill himself?? this is a fragile kid....JUST BECAUSE SHE LOVES HIM????
This lady does not know the meaning of LOVE..she knows how to manipulate and hurt kids and is a danger to KIDS. Nothing about any of this is LOVE. These parents need to get a restraining order against Cheryl and the next time she contacts either of these kids she needs to be in jail!
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I have read the horse case transcripts. No, the judge didn't say: You lying S.O.B., you may never own an animal in Canada again! But I think its clear thats what he meant.
Have You read the transcripts?
Like to try and find a way to excuse all those starved horses and dogs?
Its an outrage and I can hardly believe you are defending people capible of such things. I keep wondering Why? Why?
Let me tell ya something else - I have worked for animal shelters and I know the extremes of neglect and cruelly required to get a person charged and convicted and it is only the most horrible that get a person forbidden to own another animal.
I have seen starved dogs and horses. I have work to try and save them - I know just what was found in the Sudwick's Canadian fields; and its obscene and contemptible.
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It is obsence about those horses and dogs in Canada. I am waiting for Mr. Fox at SPCA to report what care that horse in Nephi actually received for the "reported condition of colic."
He sent me an email that he was waiting for one of the two Vets the Sudweeks say they use to call him back about this horse that died in October 2004. I will email Mr. Fox today and ask him again if this horse was in fact treated for "colic."
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Buzzkill, you are correct--the learned judge in Canada did not call Mark Sudweeks a lying S.O.B. what he said in paragraph 27 of the Appeals case, which Sudweeks LOST was:
"To be blunt, I found Mr. Sudweeks' testimoney to be a litany of excuses. Some were incredible and others merely very unconvincing. He did not reaise any reasonable doubts in my mind."
Now that is a very NICE way to say: Mark Sudweeks is a liar, don't you think?
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That's quite a tale. There must be something strange in the air at Whitmore.
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LOOK AT WHAT THEY DID TO J.C.?????????????
UOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!!!!!!!
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Who Is JC? What is that about?
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JESUS CHRIST
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OMG...now the Suds are equating themselves to the Son of God. Give me a fucking break. Do these people just not get it? Maybe they need to wash those "garments!" Think the EVIL is seeping in.
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Good thing for Leah that ya'll are such terrible liars. I mean, really! First she stole a horse, now it was her horse all along. And it's easy to see why she'd be afraid to go anywhere near you people w/o a police escort. In fact I think it must have taken great courage for her to even go near the property when she was pretty sure you weren't there. Who was it that offered to stuff a rag in her mouth?
And everybody's just out to get good ol'e Mark an Cheryl cause the whole world is jealous of how darned good they are! :roll:
If you weren't such horrible liars, some people might actually believe some of the rotten things you say about this kid. Thankfully, nobody's that stupid.
for nothing can keep it right but their own vigilant and distrustful superintendence.
--Thomas Jefferson
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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Let's just ASSUME for one moment that what they say about Leah is true (and I don't BELIEVE FOR A SECOND ANYTHING THESE PEOPLE SAY ABOUT THIS YOUNG WOMAN!)
But just for the sake of argument--what if this girl was having sex all over Whitmore???
That is not the point at all.
The point IS: HER PARENTS/GRANDPARENTS sent this girl there for a reason....and one of those REASONS was MOST PROBABLY ....SUPERVISION!!!!!!!
Why is there NO ADULT SUPERVISION AT WHITMORE?
Who is watching these kids? Who is monitoring the behavior that is going on at this "school?"
That is the Question: Supervision
Where is Mark and Cheryl Sudweeks?
Why are they not supervising these kids?
Isn't that what they are being paid to do?
It's called ACCOUNTABILITY FOLKS!
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Isn't it interesting that animal and child abuse seem to go hand in hand? This isn't the only place engaging in both...check out the stories about Majestic Ranch. It really says a lot about the kind of people who run these programs.
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I read the Majestic Ranch threads--it is amazing.
And why invest all that $$$ in horses only to neglect them? Of course--the Equine Horse thing, it makes parents sign the kids up! It does sound good! All that "love" for the horses, all that therapy, saying the daughter was trained by Monty Roberts THE HORSE WHISPERER, how the kids can be HEALED. It does sell!
After being found guilty of Animal abuse and neglect in Canada, and then loosing on the Appeals try---you'd THINK the last thing the Sudweeks would do, would go near a HORSE.
NOW they SLAPP this 18 year old girl with a law suit for 5K over what? a HORSE!!! Makes you wonder what the Sudweeks are even thinking?
And now everyone wondering and wondering---Why did that horse die in October 2004? Some say it had "colic" and some post a kid there at Whitmore neglected it. Beats all. Seems like the Suds and horses aren't too compatible.
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On 2005-03-16 07:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Isn't it interesting that animal and child abuse seem to go hand in hand? This isn't the only place engaging in both...check out the stories about Majestic Ranch. It really says a lot about the kind of people who run these programs."
Yes, and it seems to be of the same variety, too. Looks more more like immesurable conciet than hands on sadisim.
I did read some of the Canadian transcript. And, again, not to beat a dead horse (no pun intended) but I did recognize something that's a common thread in that story and the way Seedlings thought and acted. And it sort of explains a lot about this whole situation.
Art was always fond of saying that a few months in Group gave these kids the equivalent of a college education. And he believed it! If a kid was "working their program" according to his standards, he believed that that made them better qualified to provide counseling, supervision and therapy to other kids than an actual trained professional.
In Canada, it looks like they left a young kid in charge of all these horses believing that, because he was a good Whitmore kid, then he must have gotten the full benefit of their excellent equian program. Never mind that no such thing actually exists. Which of the people who Mark and Cheryl surround themselves with would dare proclaim that the emperor is stark naked and raving mad? None, aparently. Even when the kid got desperate, he was more afraid of getting the Suds into trouble (from the evil outsiders just looking for an excuse to mess w/ them) than he was of having all these horses die on him.
At the end of the day, they're not lying because they believe what they say. The kids are not lying, they believe it too. They're bullshitting. There's a difference.
Here's a book on that:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... fmiamithem (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0691122946/circlofmiamithem)
And that also explains a lot of the hostility and dissagreement in this forum. They really are offended at the suggestion that they would lie. They would never lie! They actually believe what they're saying. But then, they also believe that magical underwear will protect them from evil :roll: What do you expect?Our nada who art in nada, nada be thy name. Thy kingdom nada, thy will be nada as it is in nada. Give us this nada our daily nada and nada us our nada as we nada our nadas and nada us into nada but deliver us from nada; pues nada. Hail nothing full of nothing, nothing is with thee.
--Ernest Hemingway, American author
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Ya know, if it were a legitimate horse therapy program, it really could help a lot of kids; even many who are otherwise unreachable.
I saw a story not long ago about a state juvenile facility for seriously troubled juvenile offenders.
It was a horse therapy program and they got amazing results. Horses really are very good for the human soul. There really is a peace of mind and a quieting of inner turmoil that can radiate from a horse.
But consider the potential for the opposite effect if the kid has to witness the horse they have bonded with being left to die?
I have to agree it seems clear the Sud's have no business being in the horse business.
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You know, if I wasn't so pissed off, I could really sit back and enjoy a really good belly laugh.
I mean--magically underwear that wards off evil: what a concept, if you really could wrap your mind around something THAT SIMPLE MINDED. Just pull on your panties, and ALL'S RIGHT WITH THE WORLD! No more Wars! No more world hunger, No more diseases, No more divorces and broken homes.....just think of it!!!!!!!!!!!
And an Equine Horse Program: just put a bunch of kids together with a horse...let them ride around whispering to a horse they love, and that loves them back unconditionally----PROBLEMS SOLVED!!! And, nothing but good, horse-loving, kind people tending to the horsies.... WHOOPIE!
But back to reality: We have the Sudweeks who just don't know how to safely deal with kids or horses. So it's just a bad bad situation.
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Ginger, I don't believe for a minute that the Suds ever believed one kid could care for all those horses and dogs.
I have had horses and I know how much work just my two were. I was more or less alone in caring for them, and I 'bout killed myself one especially bad winter, just trying to keep them a clean, dry barn - Never mind the work of keeping them fed and watered!
It really did wear me out bad and it actually took most of the next summer to recover; but my horses came through it looking great.
It is very hard work and there is no way one kid can care for all those animals!
Anyone who has kept horses would know this. This includes the Suds.
But as for why the kid reacted as he did, I agree completely.
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BUT...remember HOW LONG those horses were alone up there in Canada before this "former foster child boy and his wife and new baby" even showed up in Canada." Mark Sudweeks left those horses and dogs ALONE up there in the dead of winter with NO ONE in charge of them. The "care taker" was delayed in getting up to Canada...those animals were ALONE.
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Still want to know about Casie's horse that died October 2004 in Nephi....of "colic?" Who was watching after that horse while everyone was off to Lake Powell for a month or so????
Seems the Suds and horses just don't mix.
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The Suds have time to SLAPP a lawsuit on an 18 year old former student regarding this girl's OWN horse. Why not the time to explain about this DEAD horse?
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On 2005-03-16 09:41:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"
Ginger, I don't believe for a minute that the Suds ever believed one kid could care for all those horses and dogs.
If they believe that, through some miracle, they alone can provide therapy to 40 or so troubled teenagers, why not that one or two really good Whitmore kids, blessed w/ such miraculous Whitmore powers, can winter a herd of horses? When he [Califano] claims that the voters of Arizona and California did not know what they were voting for when they supported the two initiatives, he reminds me of the way Serbia's President Slobodan Milosevic reacted to recent election results in that country.
-- George Soros -- Sunday, February 2 1997; Page C01 The Washington Post
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The Suds do not believe this for one minute. They flatout don't care! Why should they care about a bunch of dang horses up in Canada? If they live through the winter with a bunch of half-rotten hay, so be it. If they die, so?