Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on February 16, 2005, 04:14:00 PM

Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2005, 04:14:00 PM
If anyone wants any wwasps coaching please visit this website...they can help.

http://www.resourcerealizations.com/pro ... h/coaches/ (http://www.resourcerealizations.com/products/coach/coaches/)
Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2005, 04:24:00 PM
:wstupid:
Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2005, 04:31:00 PM
open the link and read some of the bios these great people have created for themselves...oh and how wonderful their children are today thanks to their families growth experience through wwasp?
Title: Coach
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 16, 2005, 06:05:00 PM
"program family" "program child"  ::puke::

Immortality: A toy which people cry for, And on their knees apply for, Dispute, contend and lie for, And if allowed Would be right proud Eternally to die for.
--Ambrose Bierce

Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2005, 08:36:00 PM
http://www.resourcerealizations.com/pro ... .cfm?ID=66 (http://www.resourcerealizations.com/products/coach/coaches/coach.cfm?ID=66)

....I was instrumental in implementing and designing a program in the junior high, ?Creating a Caring Community?, where I worked with teachers and community volunteers, who interacted with the students weekly to promote goodwill and character development. Several things that have truly been enjoyable, are teaching parenting courses, working with preschoolers and serving on various boards through the years allowing me to enrich my community through these efforts. This past year I was given the award ?Champion for Children? by the Child Youth Advocacy Organization
Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on February 17, 2005, 12:10:00 AM
this rates right next to "stepford"; scarey shit i tell you.  robots taking over the planet one child at a time, with the parental units blessings?

coach in my day was for sports, not for day to day living?
Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on February 17, 2005, 11:51:00 AM
http://www.glhopper.com/ (http://www.glhopper.com/)


here's another genious posing as an adult who can raise children.

what's that, he teaches at a college and probably spouts off his "program" jargon in class?  speaking of higher education!
Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on February 17, 2005, 08:33:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-16 17:36:00, Anonymous wrote:

"http://www.resourcerealizations.com/products/coach/coaches/coach.cfm?ID=66



....I was instrumental in implementing and designing a program in the junior high, ?Creating a Caring Community?, where I worked with teachers and community volunteers, who interacted with the students weekly to promote goodwill and character development. Several things that have truly been enjoyable, are teaching parenting courses, working with preschoolers and serving on various boards through the years allowing me to enrich my community through these efforts. This past year I was given the award ?Champion for Children? by the Child Youth Advocacy Organization"


What's the difference between a Child Advocate and a Child Right's Advocate?
Title: Coach
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 18, 2005, 02:42:00 AM
in that case it was a stupid award given stupidly to a stupid person?

Don't let your dogma run out in front of your karma.
--Anonymous

Title: Coach
Post by: Deborah on February 19, 2005, 03:29:00 AM
"If we stop thinking of ourselves as teachers and healers, can we then also finally stop thinking of others as being broken and stupid?"

"If we are here to help other people - then what are other people here for??"


[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-02-19 00:36 ]
Title: Coach
Post by: chi3 on February 20, 2005, 02:08:00 AM
If you go to the staff profile section of the resource realizations web site, you will find a man named Duane Smotherman. If you have ever Karen Lile's story on her seminar experience, this is who she is speaking about. Now she says he made very threatening statements to her, such as he could rape or kill her if he wanted to. Can you believe he is still with them? Of course you can!Why, the parents I know from CSA love him! They think he is great and wish he could facilitate all their kids' seminars. Carol Clark is another staff facilitator. She is the one who did the seminar that I attended. She was callous, condescending, and treated everyone as if they were ignorant 3 yr. olds. She plainly made all the parents feel that they were terrible parents who had caused their children to act the way they had, due to their poor parenting. I could not wait to get out of the room with her, plus, they have a large group of parent volunteer facilitators. They walk around and police you to make sure you are listening, don't have gum, and aren't side-talking to your neighbor. Then, the parent facilitators put you in groups and then take you through a bunch of silly and humiliating games and exercises that have absolutely nothing to do with your parenting skills. It is soooo productive. Actually, the scary part is, after 3 days of this, most of the parents are crying like babies, willing to do whatever she says, and immmediately signing up for the next seminar. Brainwashing, anyone????
Title: Coach
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 20, 2005, 04:08:00 PM
I'm really left here scratching my head trying to reconcile how I've been real legit good psyhcologists, and yet David Gilcrease could develop this to HELP people as a psychologist.

I do not see at all how this helps a god damn person except for someone so strong it simply DOESNT have the ability to harm, like Perrigaud.

Or maybe submissive people. I dunno if its a good thing to use submissiveness as psychotherapy. I'm only familiar with it in the sexual context... and even then its has its risks... But its consentual.

This MAKES people submissive and regressed. I'm only used to it when people want to be and have done it previously and I'm there to help them have fun. Its so much like a damn BDSM thing that its inseperable in my mind.

Any psychologists here know wtf Gilcrease was trying to do?

Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis.
--Sigmund Freud, Austrian-born psychologist

Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on February 20, 2005, 07:27:00 PM
Well, regardless of program crapola, there are "Child Advocates" who are educated about various "special needs" that may affect a kid's ability to learn in an ordinary public school classroom and mean the kid needs testing and/or an IEP to actually get the "free, appropriate public education" federal legislation mandates.

These "Child Advocates" are hired by a parent to do things like accompanying them to the IEP meetings with the public school employees to help ensure that the kid's IEP actually meets his/her learning needs.

You can get an IEP for everything from dyslexia, to Tourettes, to ADHD, to Down's Syndrome.  It just means that for whatever reasons, a one-size-fits-all education won't meet your needs.

Sometimes school employees are really bad at listening and think they understand a particular disability when they flat out don't.  Sometimes, they view providing needed accomodations, as mandated by federal law, as privileges instead of rights.  Sometimes to get them to follow the law, even in very basic common-sense accomodations to a kid's major disability, takes taking them to court in a due process hearing.

A "Child Advocate" in that context is not an attorney, but can certainly help the parent dot the "i's" and cross the "t's" to get the kid's needs met---or, worst case, to document the attempts to get the kid's needs met prior to suing the school.

I suppose in the program context "Child Advocate" may be another term that has a different meaning in the whole "program speak" world.  Kinda like "Escort Service" means something *completely* different when you're not talking about the troubled family industry. :smile: :smile: :smile:

And damn, I *wish* I'd had a correct diagnosis and an IEP when *I* was going to school.  It would have saved me no end of trouble to have gotten the needed accomodation of being excused from all or part of homework on my "bad" days rather than having my grades disproportionately docked for disorganization and time management problems caused *directly* by my disability.

Timoclea
Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on February 21, 2005, 04:14:00 AM
Quote
I'm really left here scratching my head trying to reconcile how I've been real legit good psyhcologists, and yet David Gilcrease could develop this to HELP people as a psychologist.

Gilcrease isn't a psychologist.  He is a software engineer.
Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on February 21, 2005, 07:42:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-21 01:14:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote
I'm really left here scratching my head trying to reconcile how I've been real legit good psyhcologists, and yet David Gilcrease could develop this to HELP people as a psychologist.

Gilcrease isn't a psychologist.  He is a software engineer."

Actually, he openly despises psychologists.
Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on February 21, 2005, 09:59:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-21 04:42:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-02-21 01:14:00, Anonymous wrote:


"
Quote
I'm really left here scratching my head trying to reconcile how I've been real legit good psyhcologists, and yet David Gilcrease could develop this to HELP people as a psychologist.


Gilcrease isn't a psychologist.  He is a software engineer."


Actually, he openly despises psychologists."


Probably because any sane psychologist can see what his program is all about-- abuse and destruction.
Title: Coach
Post by: chi3 on February 22, 2005, 11:27:00 AM
I'm telling you guys, you have absolutely no idea how freaky this whole seminar business really is. You have all these parents who really do want to do right by their kids, these parent facilitators who believe the program is the answer to all of life's problems, and then you have the slick facilitator. The facilitator is very smug and dominant, immediately sets the tone that all the parents are hopeless idiots, and that they have all the solutions to fix your kid up in a jiff. Tht's why these parents are so easily brainwashed. They are open to all suggestions, because they feel they have failed as parents, and if they don't "get" this program, their kid's will be deadorinjail. Well, all you have when you look past the bullshit is a tough, well-paid used car salesman. I have seen less euphoria at a all day baptism at the local baptist church. These people are good. So good, it scares the shit out of you to see these freshly minted Stepford families.
Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on February 22, 2005, 02:56:00 PM
There's another technique used by some programs.
The facilitator comisserates with parent, validating all the fears, concerns, and guilt.
They reiterate how smart the parent was to choose their program where their wayward child will receive care and protection 24/7/365; which the parent can't provide.
Peppered here and there might be a parenting tip or two, but the real goal of the workshop is to create a strong bond between parent and program. The first of many wedges that will only increase the divide between parent and child, except perhaps on the a surface, superficial level.
Title: Coach
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 22, 2005, 05:13:00 PM
Where's Perrigaud?

I am sick unto death of obscure English towns that exist seemingly for the sole accommodation of these so-called limerick writers -- and even sicker of their residents, all of whom suffer from physical deformities and spend their time dismembering relatives at fancy dress balls.
--Editor of the Limerick Times
(Limerick, Ireland)

Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on February 24, 2005, 07:05:00 PM
http://www.fearturnstohope.parentshelpingteens.com/ (http://www.fearturnstohope.parentshelpingteens.com/)

just another wonderful parent and lovely results.
Title: Coach
Post by: Antigen on February 24, 2005, 08:24:00 PM
Sure! From the adoptive mother's pov, her 'problem' was solved. But what about the kid? How did this transformation take place? And is this result really any different from what happens to cockey young men who land up in state prisons for a few years?

A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another; shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement
Thomas Jefferson  

Title: Coach
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 24, 2005, 10:37:00 PM
Ginger, if they're in a program, they're not "deadinsaneorinJAIL"

Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful.
--Friedrich Nietzsche

Title: Coach
Post by: Deborah on February 24, 2005, 10:46:00 PM
Some would argue that while incarcerated in a program that they were indeed in jail- worse than jail in many cases, and that they questioned their sanity at times. Programs do have a way of fostering confusion and madness with their bait and punish methods.

I wondered the other day, if they ever do any group or individual hypnosis on the kids. Can anyone with experience on the inside talk to that? Could be ONE explanation for why it takes with some and not others.
Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on February 25, 2005, 04:28:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-24 19:46:00, Deborah wrote:

"

Some would argue that while incarcerated in a program that they were indeed in jail- worse than jail in many cases, and that they questioned their sanity at times."

And let's not forget that they sometimes end up dead - either while in the program or when they get out.
Title: Coach
Post by: Perrigaud on February 25, 2005, 08:34:00 AM
Yes? I'm here. Curious to hear my opinion? Here it is. I've actually staffed a parent seminar. Can't say that any of that stuff happened. I staffed with Jan. I like Jan and always have. Anyhow, she gave the messege to the parents that blaming themselves and putting themselves through guilt was unhealthy. She also relayed the message that the family is in it together. For example my family and I had a pattern of how we dealt with me. My mom would get mad at my misbehavior and threaten to tell my dad. My dad would then tell me every little detail that I did was "wrong" and that I was a bad kid. At this time I'd begin to yell at him. I'd tell him to F$%& off. He'd get angry and keep belittling me. I would attack my mom verbally. My dad would get angrier and try to strike me. I would retaliate and strike him back. My brother would hide or leave the house. This was a daily occurance.
Jan explained that no one is perfect and we all have our patterns.
I can see how some people would think that the facilitators are belittling them. I'm sure it did happen as well. However, there are times (not 100% of the time) where people can't accept constructive criticism. Let's face it the truth hurts and no one wants to be told that the way they are going about in an event in their lives isn't the best method to use. People are very sensitive when it comes to private issues such as past, family problems, and self ailments.
I guess that's why I didn't feel like I was belittled. I listened to what was being brought up. If I felt it didn't pertain to me or that it simply wasn't my style I would let it go.
Title: Coach
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 25, 2005, 06:40:00 PM
Perrigaud, people not accepting constructive criticism isnt an excuse for a method that is designed (at least on the surface) to create a pathological effect in them, and it DOES have that effect in a lot of them.  

Maybe some people just cant! Well guess what? Dont do it in a gigantic seminar to have humiliation and other nasty enotions (and a group dynamic) come into effect! Psychotherapists do it in confidence for reason. Also, I really dont like how seminars often seem to play the group dynamic to the advantage of getting things into peoples minds and manipulating them.

Speaking of confidence, yes, you wont tell us of what happened. But it doesnt matter, because plenty of other people will. The secrecy involved is one of my big complaints... I'm sure you can see why.

Anywho, you are an exceptionally strong person in a lot of ways. You are also able to just stand and let the wave of bullshit and emotions flow around you while everyone else gets caught up in it. But the one thing I do get a feeling of is that the whole POINT is to get caught up in it, and when you give up ego functions to the facilitator your bullshit detector and ability to choose is effectively gone.

The truth does hurt. Most people DONT want to be told the path they're going down isnt best. HOW you say things and WHY matters just as much as WHAT you say, however. Humiliation is a excellent tool for manipulation and regression. However, it has no place in therapy.

No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the sources of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power.
P. J. O'Rourke

Title: Coach
Post by: Perrigaud on February 26, 2005, 04:33:00 AM
Niles,
  For someone so intelligent you can be so dense at times. How many times have I told you to ask me whatever questions you have? Countless. Stop saying the seminars are a big secret. Ask and you'll get answers.
Did I say that humiliation was used. People not accepting constructive criticism does not mean that humiliation and manipulation was used. You're assuming again. No, humiliation is a choice. By this I mean that I went into the seminars knowing full well that I was going to be disclosing some past. Now, at first it was hard. But as time went on I realized that I'm a freaking human being. We all make mistakes and sometimes they are big ones. The problem with people (not just troubled teens) is that they don't forgive themselves. Issues? Are you going to call it manipulation to have a child share his school project with his peers when you know full well he has an issue with speaking in front of crowds? The world doesn't stop for people who are fragile about certain topics. Most of the time people are fragile due to the shame they carry on themselves. In doing so they are set off easily.
Family, issues, and such are sensitive. Any kind of criticism that is expressed will not be regarded well. We live in a candy coated world. Seminars abusive? Yes depends on who. I didn't feel abused or manipulated. I felt (ready for this?) helped. Not entirely but it did help.
Did you not read what I said? Jan was sure to let the parents know that they aren't bad people. She didn't belittle them. Now, where do you see the abuse in that? Cause she criticised them? Please, if that's the case then there are a lot of weak people. Candy coated world.  [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-02-26 02:07 ]
Title: Coach
Post by: chi3 on February 26, 2005, 05:29:00 AM
Perri,

I have to agree with you in that I didn't feel like I was being criticized or called a bad parent. The reason for that being, I know that I'm not. i don't need anyone to make any judgements about what i have or haven't done. However, that said, I was more offended and distressed by what said for some of the people who were there. Some of these parents took this very badly, and were constantly doubting the job they had done as far as raising their children. My only point was, this facilitator person did not know any of us, yet was willing to upset and hurt many people with her words who may be permanently scarred from this. The way I understand it, all of the facilitators have different approaches to how they conduct the seminar. I was merely saying I felt the one we had was not a positive influence. I am glad to hear the seminars helped you. I have a very good friend who swears by them. I agree with Niles that these open-forum emotion dredgings are not for everyone. I think most people would gain so much more in an one-one situation. Preferably staffed by a licensed Psychologist. I can't be comfortable a bout all these people digging into their innermost thought and feelings in a huge room filled with strangers, who no one knows how they will react, yet the person "in charge" is not even a licensed trained professional.
Title: Coach
Post by: Perrigaud on February 26, 2005, 06:04:00 AM
Yep. It can be hard for most people. Every facilitator is different. They do have their own ways. But to let some stranger tell you some things you know are untrue get to you is to give them the power. No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. It it isn't true then why listen to it? It's people like that that ruin themselves more than others.
Title: Coach
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 26, 2005, 03:50:00 PM
Perrigaud, the whole seminars being a big secret thing isnt about YOU keeping it a secret, its about it being a total surprise for people in a program the first time they go into one, and that 99% of parents signing up for a program dont know jack about the programs. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear before. You also said "Yes? I'm here. Curious to hear my opinion? Here it is. I've actually staffed a parent seminar. Can't say that any of that stuff happened." Sorry if I misunderstood that.

Now, you say how you feel about what someone says to you is a choice. Sure, everyone has a threshold of tolerance. But we all also know that nobody is invulnerable. Given enough time (and preventing the subject from escaping or putting cottonballs in his ears) I could make him or her VERY mad at me, or feel very helpless. When you bring a group dynamic into it, its even easier to influence people.

If it comes down to people being too vulnerable when the point of the whole experience is to HELP them then why not make it into a case where it does something theyre not supposed to be influenced by? And why not make them "stronger" (if its even possible) before this?

Now, about the criticism. Yeah a lot of people dont handle it very well. WHAT it is isnt what I'm  trying to draw attention to. Its *HOW*. Still with me?

Your bodylanguage, tone of voice, volume, and how you do it (in a group with a bunch of people or in a psychotherapist's couch in his or her office) can have a big effect. Accepting critism is something everyone has to learn how to do, even our leaders and authority figures :grin: but if you criticise in the wrong way it can hurt or piss off someone.

I'm not saying people dont have to deal with this, but I am saying seminars are not proven to be necessary of effective (in the good way) by psychologists and their research peer-reviewed yet. People can deal with this with conventional psychotherapy, or some other method that doesnt involve a seminar that reeks of LGATs. It seems like you're saying its their fault for not working with the seminar, and/or they're too weak. Who said seminars were necessary or even all that great at all except for the programs and David Gilcrease?

You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence.

--Charles Austin Beard

Title: Coach
Post by: Deborah on February 26, 2005, 09:02:00 PM
Confrontation, humiliation, shame, guilt. None of that is necessary in order to tell someone the truth, share your observations, and effect a postitive change.

When I see those things, it tells me that the facilitator (professional, wannabe therapist, preacher...) hasn't dealth with their own issues and most often, is way overly invested in changing the other person. Therapy isn't usually successful when the therapist is more invested in change than the client.

We live in such a harsh and punitive society that I tend to believe that many people think nothing about this approach- the Dr Phil method. They're accustomed to confrontation and humiliation and punishment. It is grossly disrespectful of the client.

The difference with a more thoughtful form of therapy is that the therapist simply points out his/her observations, and if the client perceives something as a problem and so desires, the therapist can make suggestions from there. Unskilled and shadetree therapists can actually cause a person to think they have a 'problem' when one doesn't exist. It's not a problem unless the client perceives it as such.

That doesn't mean that the therapist is passive and does nothing. A skilled therapist knows how to confront and attack the undesirable behavior without attacking the client. I didn't see that in the facilitator of my 8-day est-based workshop. The facilitator was way too urgent and critical and confrontational. Red flags for anyone who might find themselves in such a seminar or workshop. That's the time to excuse yourself and demand a refund, then go find yourself a good therapist who isn't seething with rage under the surface and looking to browbeat their clients and overly invested in the outcome.
Title: Coach
Post by: Perrigaud on March 01, 2005, 11:59:00 AM
Yes, but at the same time the people have a choice to disclose what they want to or what they don't. Confrontation? No, challenged but not forced is the correct description. Humiliation? No, people allow themselves to feel that way. Shame and guilt is also a choice. The fact that people blame others is also an easy way out. "They made me talk about myself." What? No gun was held to their head. It's a choice. If they weren't ready then they should've kept their mouth shut.
Shame and guilt are strong feelings. Sometimes it's so severe that the slightest mention of an event, person, place or thing can set them off. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-03-01 09:01 ]
Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on March 01, 2005, 12:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-03-01 08:59:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"Yes, but at the same time the people have a choice to disclose what they want to or what they don't"

If they chose not to do so do they ever get to graduate?  Or do they get 'chosen out' of the seminar.
Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on March 01, 2005, 04:17:00 PM
They don't get chosen out. They choose out. For the kids they won't move up levels. For the kids. If that is the case and parents are truly against it pull your child out. obviously you know what happens so don't play dumb.
Title: Coach
Post by: Nihilanthic on March 01, 2005, 04:42:00 PM
Perrigaud, for the children, if they dont participate they dont get out of the program. Thats coersion. Period.

Challenging is confronting someone. Word play doesnt change what they're doing. You dont need to 'challenge' to talk about things. I'd say look at regular psychotherapy. Then I'd say look at the setting of the seminar. You yourself told me they play with the unconscious mind in there.

Also, you can (eventually, for ANYONE) 'force' people to feel certain ways. People's actions influence how others feel. NOBODY is invulnerable.

Maybe they should have kept their mouth shut if they werent ready, but the group dynamic and emotional pressures that seem to be present in the seminars can 'motivate' people to speak out. LGATs have that effect.

ACTUAL psychologists, not Gilcrease's clown college psychology and his oompa-loompa facilitators have recognized that and acknowledged it - so have interrogators for our federal government.

All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor

Title: Coach
Post by: Perrigaud on March 01, 2005, 05:06:00 PM
Wow how weak humans are. When I say challenged I mean that the opportunity is presented. They don't have to take it. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. Also, there have been many that have done what they deemed as enough and have made it through. To say that a person has to cry, scream, and lose it allover is a common misconception. They don't participate they don't get out true. But if it truly isn't working and it's that bad, and the parents know it why keep them in there? Could it be that no kid likes it in the moment but afterwards they feel better? I never liked it. Yes I was given the oppurtunity to take advantage of speaking my mind. I took it and in the end learned a lot. I liked the fact that I could talk about my deepest fears, secrets, and beliefs or what have you with the opportunity to gain knowledge, tips, a different point of view, and relief. You see, what seperates me from the others (as well as my other friends who find the program and the seminars non-abusive) is that I am not ashamed of what I've been through or who I was. If I were I could see how I'd think the program was abusive. Such is not the case. I saw no point in barely getting by when I knew these people could help me. Thses people are the facilitators and the students who were going through. Life is how you look at it and handle it. Seminars are the same way.
Title: Coach
Post by: Perrigaud on March 01, 2005, 05:07:00 PM
If a seminar ruins your life I feel bad for you. There are a hell of a lot worse things than seminars. The truth hurts and people expect others to treat them with delicate fluffy hands. No wonder there is so much violence and negativity.
Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on March 01, 2005, 05:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-03-01 08:59:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"Yes, but at the same time the people have a choice to disclose what they want to or what they don't. Confrontation? No, challenged but not forced is the correct description. Humiliation? No, people allow themselves to feel that way. Shame and guilt is also a choice. The fact that people blame others is also an easy way out. "They made me talk about myself." What? No gun was held to their head. It's a choice. If they weren't ready then they should've kept their mouth shut.

Shame and guilt are strong feelings. Sometimes it's so severe that the slightest mention of an event, person, place or thing can set them off. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-03-01 09:01 ]"


Perri, if you directly speak to someone and either criticize their behavior specifically, or through "I experience" passive-aggressive bullshit, that is a confrontation.  For example, in saying this, I am confronting you right now.

Humiliation is *not* just something you do or don't choose to feel.  When some person or group treat another person in a way that is not respectful of that person's human dignity: such as watching that person dress or undress or shower or use the bathroom (even for suicide watch); such as watching the person cry without allowing them to leave the room and go to the bathroom or somewhere else non-punitive; such as depriving the person of their own clothes that are different and an individual expression of personality; such as defining small things as infractions against a long list of rules and assigning draconian punishments to them---all these things are humiliating.  Some of them may sometimes be necessary, but anything that deprives a person of fundamental physical liberty, freedom of association, or free expression, deprives that person of their human dignity and is humiliating.  Anything that forces someone to experience, in public, invidious comparison with others or public punishment or public "dressing down" is humiliating.

"Humiliate" is a verb that takes a subject, and a person or people as an object, and represents actions of the subject performed on the object.

Your believing this is not so is evidence of damage you've taken by having your mind twisted by others to the point that you excuse the actions of a person who humiliates someone else by embracing a definition that inherently blames the victim.

When a teacher calls a student's question "stupid" in front of the class, she has humiliated that student.  Any deliberate snub or public criticism is a humiliation.  A key component of humiliation is that it is inflicted by a person who has some sort of power in their relationship to the person humiliated, and that that power is used to somehow degrade or embarrass the victim in front of one or more witnesses.  Sometimes the only witness is the person exerting dominance over the person being forced/coerced/required/pressured/induced to submit.

We all get humiliated and embarrassed occasionally.  It's part of human interaction that you can never completely avoid.  Some people may develop a thick enough skin that they can sometimes resist the emotional impact when someone tries to humiliate them by rejecting that person's attempt to exert dominance over them, but it's the attempt to exert dominance in a way that emphasizes the relative lack of value or lack of power of the person dominated that is the essence of humiliation.

Shame and guilt are *not* a choice.  Feelings are natural responses to our interactions with others.  Resistance or suppression or redirection of those natural responses is a learned skill.  The only people capable of never feeling guilt and shame are sociopaths.  That's one of the key symptoms that defines sociopaths.

While if I have the skill I can *choose* to reject my initial assessment of guilt or shame in response to a situation, or to reject other people's expressed perceptions that I am guilty of or shamed by something, the normal, natural human response to others believing we are guilty or have behaved shamefully is to have those feelings of guilt or shame induced in us by our human empathy with that person.

A skilled, fully grown adult can frequently independently evaluate whether guilt or shame is a rational response to an interpersonal interaction---whether he or she really has behaved badly or failed in a duty--and can reject guilt or shame if he or she believes the assessment of the other (or initial assessment of self) is inaccurate.

Children cannot do this.  This is why child abuse leaves long term scars on the child long after any physical damage has healed.  Children blame themselves for any abuse that happens to them *unless* helped to do otherwise by a competent therapist.  

Older children, adolescents, and even adults respond to situations in which they are in the complete control of others by blaming themselves (or some other powerless person in the situation with them) for anything bad that happens.

They do this for the same reason children do, and it takes active training and an act of will to refuse the shame and guilt naturally induced by this process.  Alpha personalities are also generally better at it than beta personalities.

That is, it takes active training and an act of will unless one is a sociopath--in which case one *cannot* feel shame, guilt, regret, or remorse.  One can only pretend to feel these things, and usually the pretense is imperfect.

Your theory of human emotion is wrong.

Whether you came up with it yourself, or you were told it by some other person or people, it's flat wrong.

I mean that in the sense of "wrong" that means "false," not in the sense of "wrong" that means "evil."

People may, with skill, *sometimes* choose to feel something other than those things naturally induced in them by the situation.  People may, with damage, feel things in response to the combination of damage and the situation that are different from what people without the damage would feel.

But the mere fact that *sometimes* people can choose to change their emotions *does not* mean that people choose their emotions in the first place.

This is, in set theory, a case where we have examples of some elements of set A that are also elements of set B, but that does NOT imply that the elements of set A are identically equal to the elements of set B.

Just because I can cause the grass to become wet by turning on the sprinkler, or keep it dry on high ground by putting a waterproof tarp up over it, doesn't mean all cases of wet grass are caused by my turning on the sprinkler or all cases of dry grass are caused by tarps.  Sometimes it rains.  Sometimes it's sunny.  Given my brown thumb, it is *substantially* more likely that wet grass or dry grass in *my* yard came from the weather.  :smile:

Timoclea
Title: Coach
Post by: Nihilanthic on March 01, 2005, 05:33:00 PM
Seminars are only necessary and encouraged in specific RTCs. They're hardly common and the vast majority of people on earth never know they exist and get by just fine without them, and we have for thousands of years before.

Now, the psychologists who have lambasted LGAT's universally not withstanding.... other than because the program said so, why do seminars at all?

They aren't necessary to get the objectives accomplished you list as being helped or influenced in some way by the seminar. Saying everyone is weak for being unduly influenced by it is just sidestepping the issue that in some way or another the seminars are pushed on everyone in the program and are made the way they are.

They could change it or drop it all together. Theyre NOT NECESSARY.

And about shame... you can GIVE people shame because you can influence how they feel and how others feel abou them. Altered perceptions and playing with social ques and the body language and tone of voice of the facilitator does a lot. If everyone is so damn weak then why do the seminar that way? People are not immune to the effects of the actions, spoken (or typed) words, and opinions of others.

If they arent supposed to be influenced by it then why do it that way? I see tons of emotion and acting out in the DETAILED descriptions of seminars and LGATs in general all the time!

Yeah, there are worse things than seminars, but they're unnecessary, rare, questioned as to their efficacy, and would be just as well not done at all! Insulting people saying they're weak and people need things done with 'delicate fluffy hands' or what have you is irrelevant is theres NO NEED and NO ADVANTAGE to using the seminars. The Program's requirement of going through them is artificial - 99% of the world doesnt need them and humanity got by JUST fine without them for eons.

Youre arguing for the use of seminars only beause in your program, you had to. There are plenty of other ways to help people.

The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic.
--Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist

Title: Coach
Post by: Perrigaud on March 01, 2005, 06:12:00 PM
Out of humiliation comes humility. I could easily say that the world has done me wrong and that I have been abused and blah blah blah.
My theory is my own. I don't expect anyone to live by my way or they are wrong. To say that I'm wrong is to place judgement on my opinion.
Now, guilt is a choice because that's the way a person looks at it. There are events that are not a victims fault. I've been subject to many of these. However, I refuse to let myself feel bad over that. I refuse to feel ashamed. Welcome to life. Shit happens and it's all on how you deal with it. Too many times do people feed off being labeled as a victim.
The crap I've seen in my short lifetime hasn't been fair. Some of it is so bad others can not deal with it. Do I sit around feeling sorry for myself? Do I blame others? No. I look at it in a different light.
Proves that I'm brainwashed? No. I came up with this on my own. Did the program drill it into my head that I had to feel this way? No. I'm a survivor of many things and that is why I am successful. I still make mistakes. In fact I'm in the middle of dealing with a couple big ones right now. However I refuse to be a victim.
Title: Coach
Post by: Nihilanthic on March 01, 2005, 06:33:00 PM
Thats a good way of thinking, but what does that have to do with the seminars or what we brought up about them?

Whether or not you feed off of being a victim for attention (which is questionable in that it seems to be a common thread in seminars as part of making people feel guilty for having suffered, IMO) doesnt change the complaints and grievances we had with the seminars. Why bother giving you MORE to be a victim of?

If anything, you coming up with this on your own was in spite of the seminars attempts at making you do things the way they present them to you. I've seen posts from a parent forum - they're all in step with the programs doctrine. YOU got a very unique empowerment from this that seems to stem from YOU more than the program itself, anyway.

So, to get back to the point... why are we even doing seminars if so many people suck at them and half of getting anything out of them is filtering out the bullshit?

P.S. - goodluck with your personal shit.

               The body of
        Benjamin Franklin, printer,
      (Like the cover of an old book,
            Its contents worn out,
    And scripts of it's lettering and gilding)
       Lies Here, food for worms!
     Yet the work itself shall not be lost,
For it will, as he believed, appear once more
                 In a new
         And more beautiful edition,
          Corrected and amended
                By it's Author!

Epitaph for himself.

--Benjamin Franklin 1706-1790

Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on March 01, 2005, 06:40:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-03-01 15:12:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"Out of humiliation comes humility.


I almost couldn't read the rest of the post after that opening statement.  

/shakes head and walks away in complete disgust.
Title: Coach
Post by: Perrigaud on March 02, 2005, 10:49:00 AM
Nice try Anonymous. This comes from a famous quote from someone that (gasp!) wasn't in the program. Close minded ASSumer.
Anyhow, I came up with this theory of mine before the seminars.
Now, the reason behind bringing this up wasto say that the seminars have worked for many. In that same respect many have not been able to handle it. Seminars can be helpful and to some detrimental. Screenings should occur. However they don't so I agree that some things need to change.
I brought up the humility and the survival mentality for the reason that these are things we need all the time. Not just in seminars. Again, there are a lot worse things than seminars. Could it be that they actually helped? Could it be that although they are challenging that it helps to get otherwise hard-headed souls tear down their walls of crap? By crap I mean their baggage be it emotional or physical. In life, I believe that if things are not dealt with they become dangerous.
Title: Coach
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2005, 10:57:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-03-02 07:49:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"Nice try Anonymous. This comes from a famous quote from someone that (gasp!) wasn't in the program.

Didn't think you came up with it.  I don't give a shit who said it.  To use it when speaking in the context of these programs and seminars is inexcusable.  You've been around here for a while.  You've seen what others have gone through and heard them describe some pretty serious damaging fucking humiliation.  At least some of the time you've been more open minded than some, but you missed the boat with this one.

Quote
Close minded ASSumer.


I read and respect what you have to say most of the time but when you throw shit like this out I just completely turn off.  Program speak (regardless of the actual origin of the phrase) gives me the willies. :scared:
Title: Coach
Post by: Perrigaud on March 02, 2005, 03:22:00 PM
Issue person (A.K.A. anonymous) This was never used in the program much less a seminar. I'll try and find out who it is/was that said it. Oh, and inexcusable program lingo unfortunatly is used a lot more than you think. Feedback, constructive criticism, experience, and such are used a lot. Even "I encourage you."
Why does it give you the willies? Did you go through a seminar and have a bad experience (no I'm not being condescending). Just trying to gain an understanding. I retract the "Issue person" statement. Sorry for prejudging. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-03-02 12:23 ]
Title: Coach
Post by: Nihilanthic on March 03, 2005, 12:19:00 AM
Perrigaud, while I suck at trying to take a conception in my mind and express it when its this complex... the only thing I can say is WHAT doesnt matter nearly as much as the HOW and WHY with what you do and say to people.

That, and people aren't immune. You *CAN* influence what people think and feel and hurt them through words, especially with control of their environment and social pressure.

Lets say John and Jane Q. Public go to a seminar. Bullshit starts going off and their BS detectors are going off, they dont like it, and want to leave. However, everyone else is there staying there. They're told to stay the hole time. Everyone running it acts like this is normal! Social Pressure does amazing things, Perrigaud.

Youre a strong person and independant enough to just say "No this is bullshit" and not be affected by it. But hell, even you didnt like that "running your number" process bullshit.

Using terms like this in a cultish setting and ego reduction (so thinking and decisions come from an authority) can fuck people up. Maybe the human condition is weakness but thats not humanitys fault if a program is fucked up by design.

To the anon - wish to share where you went? Any specifics at all? There are ways you can contact me that are untraceable, and you can trust Ginger (antigen) with anything you want. She runs the site.

I'm sure you already know about http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org), but I'll mention again, just incase :grin:

He that will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; and he who dares not, is a slave.
--William Drummond (1585-1640)

Title: Teenhelp etc.
Post by: Anonymous on December 12, 2006, 07:48:23 AM
I have mixed opions about this stuff.  I have a bachelors degree in psychology and have been to various counselors etc. Of course my little degree doesn't hold a candle compared to everyone elses' but for whatever it's worth this is my opinon as follows:
     We just finished the "Discovery Training" with Duane Smotherman. "We" is my husband and I. During the program I recognized the marketing he does for the program and how he leads you to believe that if you pull your child out (or if you'd not put him in) they'll die (due to drugs, etc.). Perhaps that's true, but then it could be just marketing for the program. So you have to be careful. Now I am HOping that he will be Fixed when he comes out BUT I don't want him to be brainwashed or hypnotized to do that. During the seminar, there were a lot of awsome things we did, but it really did seem to dance right up to a few boundary lines that lead me to wander if when they do it with the kids...do they cross those lines? As parents with kids in the program of course we have a vested interest, but with him obviously he also has a vested interest and it's not necessarily our children ($). So on one hand we liked the seminar, but on the other there are some concerns. I don't have the answer.
Title: Re: Teenhelp etc.
Post by: psy on December 12, 2006, 08:11:17 AM
Quote from: ""Annonomous""
I have mixed opions about this stuff.  I have a bachelors degree in psychology and have been to various counselors etc. Of course my little degree doesn't hold a candle compared to everyone elses' but for whatever it's worth this is my opinon as follows:
     We just finished the "Discovery Training" with Duane Smotherman. "We" is my husband and I. During the program I recognized the marketing he does for the program and how he leads you to believe that if you pull your child out (or if you'd not put him in) they'll die (due to drugs, etc.). Perhaps that's true, but then it could be just marketing for the program. So you have to be careful. Now I am HOping that he will be Fixed when he comes out BUT I don't want him to be brainwashed or hypnotized to do that. During the seminar, there were a lot of awsome things we did, but it really did seem to dance right up to a few boundary lines that lead me to wander if when they do it with the kids...do they cross those lines? As parents with kids in the program of course we have a vested interest, but with him obviously he also has a vested interest and it's not necessarily our children ($). So on one hand we liked the seminar, but on the other there are some concerns. I don't have the answer.


okey dokey.

http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/apologist/apologist23.html#Large-Group%20Awareness%20Training

read there.  if you feel like it go look up lifespring, est.

http://http://www.isaccorp.org/cults.asp

read the articles on lifespring under wwasp

Jeesus.

Perrigaud seems to have waaay too much kool-aid.  Go read the above links man.  especially under est and lifespring.  

The whole "it's always my fault" shit they shove down your throat is just so you'll blame yourself when they fuck you over.

Go research.  And i dare you to write about it.  I bet you can't.  I bet you can't remember everythign.  Just try it.  Write in a journal for just yourself to read.  Good luck getting past page one.

When you start to realize what they did.  then you're attitude will change.