Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on January 16, 2005, 09:04:00 AM
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:smile: http://www.montelshow.com/show/upcoming ... tm?index=1 (http://www.montelshow.com/show/upcoming_detail.htm?index=1)
TEEN REHAB: AN INVESTIGATIVE REPORT
Since the 1970s, Americans have been shipping their children off to rehabilitation centers, commonly referred to as "boot camps." These programs often claim they can change a troubled teen into a respectful child in a few weeks time. But what really goes on at these facilities where parents aren't allowed to visit? We'll hear the real story from adults who are still haunted by the facilities their parents sent them to. Samantha says that the facility she was sent to in Florida when she was 13 was a living nightmare. She claims that aside from the constant belittling and verbal abuse, she was beaten and starved regularly. Later on, after she had tried to escape the first time, Samantha alleges that she was raped and then forced to have an abortion when she became pregnant. We'll talk to her 2 sisters - one who was sent to the same facility and the youngest who was able to avoid her mother's disapproval. We'll also meet Shannon who claims that the behavioral treatment center she went to in Jamaica used unnecessary force against her that dislocated her jaw. Plus we'll meet Johnny who claims he spent nearly his entire visit at a facility locked in isolation. All of these former rehab inhabitants claim that they received little to no education and counseling while they were there. Find out today why their parents chose to send them away and how some research suggest that these programs are completely ineffective in helping teens.
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Maia Szalavitz: A journalist who has written a book entitled, "Tough Love America," (due out later this year) about teen rehabilitation centers
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Awesome writer. Should be a good reference for parents considering a program.
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YAY!
Finally, someone has the balls to stand up to this damn industry and get it out somewhere people will actually SEE IT.
30+ years of this bullshit and its finally gonna see the light of day. No more raping and beating of kids for money. :tup: The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
--John Adams, U.S. President
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John Jr. if you?re reading this, stay strong buddy. Your friend from 98.
Courage is Fear Walking. Let Freedom Ring.
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Interesting, David Pollack, PURE/Scheff attorney, is the same attorney featured on Montel. Hmmm, there in, the shadow of doubt is cast. Is there anyone out there fighting against the WWASP schools that is not associated with PURE?
I had kids in Dundee and Pollack is the attorney sueing me. Do you think he is sueing me to shut me up? Could it be that what I know might hurt his case? I did not realize he had a personal investment in Scheff's case against me. I thought he was defending Scheff on grounds that I defamed her. Looks to me like he has a personal interest in upholding her image, MONEY!
Ginger, did you know about this? Did you know Pollack had cases against WWASP? What a mess! [ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2005-01-17 12:35 ]
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If wwasps did this, it doesnt matter who points the finger.
PURE is most likely doing this for their own financial gain. Whatever. I'd be happy to see any abusive orginization brought down, period.
PURE is going to see their own justice if they refer to abusive programs soon enough themselves. Dont worry.
Just quit whining that a business competetor is after WWASPS. they still did the crime.... and the group leader was a clown.
GregFL
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What 'shadow of doubt'?
The girl's jaw was broken in 'therapy'. I hope Pollack sues them for all he can get.
What are you alleging? As usual, it's not clear for the average reader.
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I think its more of the usual WWASPS vs PURE bickering.
competing orginizations. And frankly I hope they both tear eachother to the ground....to disarm the people (is) the best and most effective way to enslave them...
-- George Mason
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::rocker:: Amen to that brother.
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Whos Your Lawyer Carey?
Who else does He represent?
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I think the obvious implication is that anyone who's ever been associated w/ Sue must be lying all the time about everything and completely unreliable. But, of course, you were once affiliated w/ Sue (voluntarily, I mean) so that would have to include yourself.
Since she goes out of her way to raise her visibility on this issue, naturally that means most newspaper reporters that cover WWASP have, at one point or another, interviewed and maybe quoted Sue. So does that mean every report and every person quoted in all papers from the Rocky Mountain News to the London Guardian are so sullied?
Look, even a broken clock is right twice a day. I think Sue's got it pretty straight wrt WWASP. Just hunker and watch what happens w/ the Whitmore.
No synonym for God is so perfect as Beauty. Whether as seen carving the lines of the mountains with glaciers, or gathering matter into stars, or planning the movements of water, or gardening - still all is Beauty!
-- John Muir
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Caveat: To the promo "contact PURE for more info" they should have added "and referals to other longterm, out of state, TOUGHLOVE quack treatment".
Aside from that, I thought it was a reasonably good treatment of the topic for daytime talk. Maia was fantastic. I wish she'd been given a whole lot more time. Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
--Annie Dillard, "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek"
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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Any publicity that makes parents aware that their children *can* be abused in one of these quack programs, and aware of how scant and inadequate and frequently nonexistent the regulation and oversight of the programs is---any publicity that does that is good publicity.
Obviously, if there's no licensing agency looking over WWASPS shoulder, there's non looking over PURE's shoulder either.
Even getting out the *idea* that your kid could come back far worse than you sent them, or not come back at all, will make most parents more careful consumers.
Which isn't all that's needed, but is definitely a step forward.
Timoclea
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Miai was great, wasn't she?!
I also thought, all in all, they did a good job. I too, wish Miai had had more time; and I wish John and his son had had a lot more time. They also have a compelling story and John France could have explained a lot about how the program controls the parents; what the seminars are and other important related issues. I feel some rather serious mis-conceptions were allowed to remain, and that concerns me. But considering the format and the limited air time - they did a good job.
I hope very much they do a part two. There is so much more to the story.
I would rather have seen ISAC get the advertising at the end. Seems like it would have been more appropriate, but I guess PURE had a lot to do with getting the show done and so they get the nod.
Maybe when Miai's book is released they'll do a part two and have her back.
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This attorney may have a professional conflict of interest. You should check it out. If he does then he'll have to drop the case against you. You should notify the State Bar of whatever state he's licensed in and suggest that this attorney may have a conflict of interest. He'll just have to prove otherwise - at least it would give him a few hurdles to jump over first. Take Care.....
Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-- F. P. Jones
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was very interesting, all of the participants presented their cases very well. i for one, was very surprised that montel had also been involved with such behavioral mod programs. he was very knowledgeable and brought some good thoughts to the table, both overseas and in state.
david spoke well and had some good legal stuff. john and his son made everyone aware of their plight and wwasps. shannon and her daughter brought up some interesting topics against wwasps, poor child and her jaw. wwasp's should pay big time for that mishap. sammie and her sisters definately made their points concerning straight, inc. the paid for abortion is definately an angle to pursue. montel even wondered when the statutes would run out on such charges?
what a sad day for the behavioral mod programs! hopefully, one day soon they will all get what they deserve, closed doors amd "0" income.
btw; carey, you normally get money for services rendered. ie...client to lawyer!
didn't you get yours? ie...behavioral mod to snitch?
does the bank discriminate against who can open an account and place money into it? NOT!
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I think the obvious implication is that anyone who's ever been associated w/ Sue must be lying all the time about everything and completely unreliable. But, of course, you were once affiliated w/ Sue (voluntarily, I mean) so that would have to include yourself.
Yes, I do believe that everyone that aligns themselves with Sue has very little regard for the whole truth and nothing but the truth. You said I was "once affiliated", true. But once I could see what she was doing and what she did personally to me, I made it known. For that, I am being sued.
Any way Ginger, you did not answer my question. Did you know that Pollack was suing WWASP, and are you still on his list to be sued? Also, don't you find it interesting that he is suing a survivor, you, of a program for speaking "your" mind about "educational consultants" and "programs"? Seems like he is really only interested in keeping Sue PURE for his own legal battle. That is my opinion.
Miai, did do a great job!!!! That is also my opinion.[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2005-01-18 10:56 ]
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Whos your lawyer Carey?
Who else does he represent?
Is that a conflict of interest?
You would not have ever heard of him, or he of you, were it not for this common connection the two of you have with this other client of his - right?
One could see conspirecy here. . .
You and his other client, would like to defame PURE and Sue Scheff. Maybe your working together to do so! OMG!
Maybe it is Alan with the conflict of interest.
But no. . . Because the interest don't conflict.
You and WWASP (his other client) both want the same thing. His efforts on your behalf, are also on wwasps' behalf (in line with their agenda) so there is no conflict. Unless, by doing less than his best for you, he somehow helps them - there is no conflict of interest.
No reason why wwasp would want you hung out to dry, is there Carey? Now, That might create a conflict.
No reason to think or suggest David isn't doing his very best for both Sue against you, Carey; and for Shannon against WWASP. There is no conflict.
In fact, it appears he is doing a very good job on behalf of his clients. More power to him, and God Bless him.
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Anon, I have not aligned myself with anybody. I don't beleive in programs, not WWASP's and not PURE's. They all leave a lot to be desired in my opinion.
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"BEAN HEADS" Good one Montel.
He was obviously very angered about what's going on in the industry. Hope he gives this issue more air time. Parents need to know that these attrocities are happening at facilities within the US as well. Some are just more covert than others.
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Hell, I'm just happy that someone is giving the issue as a whole some air time. I could really give a shit who's fighting with who. It's stupid. This is not going to be a one time thing and then everyone gets the message. It's going to take more of this type of programming and now that it's gotten out there once, maybe it'll stir up some more interest. Not every point is going to be able to be covered in a one hour program. Carey, if you can get yourself on a similar program you'll have your chance to bitch about Sue and PURE all you want, although I think it would be counter-productive to getting the message out about abusive rehabs. It'll just make make all involved look like a bunch of 2 year olds who can't get along. Get off your high horse and be glad that at least maybe now the ball is rolling. It's a start.
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Honestly, I'm not sure if I knew about that or not LOL. What I mean is that I had heard about it, didn't know whether to believe it or not and I can't recall if I'd ever seen anything convincing like a filing or something.
As far as the suit against me, I'd rather not discuss it too much. It's still a tempest in a teapot in the midst of a serious storm. That storm is a lot more interesting to me.
But you don't really assume that anyone who's critical of WWASP must be just one of Sue's puppets, do you? I mean, it flies in the face of a mountain of evidence. I'm pretty sure that when Karen Lile Bean (I think that's her name) made her report of the WWASP seminar, Sue was still working for WWASP, wasn't she? There's just so damned much.
And I don't assume that, just because Sue's got it in for you that you must be an advocate of WWASP. That just wouldn't make sense, even if I weren't a target as well.
It's just so much more complicated than that.
Let me dredge up an old argument that I made back when the Carey Sucks club was the dominant force in these forums. Hitler hated Stalin, Stalin hated Hitler and neither one was redeemed by it. WWASP hates PURE and PURE hates WWASP. That still doesn't tell us anything useful about either organization.
"What are ya' gonna believe, your eyes or what I tell ya'?"
I knew to look a little closer because it all seems so familiar. I spent a couple of hours in the intake room at LIFE listening to a couple of teenagers try and convince me that LIFE was just completely different from Straight, Inc. I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now when anybody tries to play the same old song and dance by me again.
But that doesn't mean they're lying! Are you starting to understand that?
Check out this new forum:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?forum=35&282 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?forum=35&282)
Now, I can't say with certainty that Sue is sending kids to Whitmore. I think it's true, but that's not the same as knowing it, ya' know?
If you read what those kids have to say and maybe look over their website (if they haven't made it private by now) you can learn a whole lot.
They talk about kids going into town relatively soon after starting at the Whitmore. That would never happen in a WWASP program. They're in Utah, not out of country (small distinction in many ways, I know, but still a distinction) They don't seem to be affiliated in any way w/ Resource Realizations. In fact I don't even think they do parent support groups.
I can see where, to someone who hadn't seen it happen before, this would look like a great alternative to WWASP.
But I have seen it before. So when some of these kids describe violence and threats of voiolence and being told to lie to protect the program operators, I can't swear it's true any more than I can swear that Sue is sending kids there. But, based on my experience, it seems perfectly plausible. In fact, based on my experience and my research, it seems a whole lot more plausible than the idea that there's some good, effective, safe and secure facility somewhere that can change a kid's behavior and attitude to the parents' likeing against the kid's will w/o breaking them.
But not everyone has my experience, and I wouldn't wish it on everybody. So it also seems perfectly reasonable that Sue believes she's the good guy and Montel's staff believe it too and so does David Pollack.
People are never any more convincing than when they're tryig to convince themselves.
Fear is the parent of cruelty, therefore it is no wonder if religion and cruelty have gone hand-in-hand.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic
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The fact that Montel would run a Promo for PURE is a strong indication that you've all misjudged Sue Scheff. Montel would have checked her out thoroughly before doing any such thing. Sue's detractors consist of the pro-WWASP crowd, and a handful of people with so much emotional baggage that I feel more pity than anger. She's one of the heros of this cause and it's time some of you realized it.
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Jeff,
Sue hasn't passed the test.
Post the programs she refers to and let the watchdogs here see what they can find on those programs.
While I'm pleased that she is bringing national attention to this issue, she better be operating clean as the driven snow, if she doesn't want to be exposed and go down with the others. Meaning, she better know the facilities inside and out, that there is no form of abuse overt or covert.
Post the programs. Let's see what we find.
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On 2005-01-18 13:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
It's going to take more of this type of programming and now that it's gotten out there once, maybe it'll stir up some more interest.
Hopefully, that will including dedicated interest in who's getting promotion out of the deal and what they're doing with it. It is not insignificant!
Look, I'll state it plainly and briefely. I honestly believe that Sue believes that she's sending kids to good places. I just don't have all that much faith in her assessments. Do you?
Not every point is going to be able to be covered in a one hour program. Carey, if you can get yourself on a similar program you'll have your chance to bitch about Sue and PURE all you want, although I think it would be counter-productive to getting the message out about abusive rehabs. It'll just make make all involved look like a bunch of 2 year olds who can't get along. Get off your high horse and be glad that at least maybe now the ball is rolling. It's a start."
Sorry, I can't agree w/ you there. I think Maia was probably the most credible voice on that show. She's actually looked at the research, what little of it there has been. And the research concludes that keeping kids in the community, rather than shipping them off, seems to be a good thing. Imagine that! Parents shipping their kids off to be forcefully reformed by strangers might have some adverse effects? My Lord! Who'd a thunk it?!
The clergy know that I know that they know that they do not know.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
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On 2005-01-18 13:34:00, Jeff_Berryman wrote:
"The fact that Montel would run a Promo for PURE is a strong indication that you've all misjudged Sue Scheff.
:rofl: :rofl:
No, actually it was a strong indication to me that I probably wasn't too quick to judge Montel and daytime talk.
So Jeff, why don't you drop a line to Montel's regular psychic and tell us what happens next?
Sorry, but you have blown all credibility you ever had w/ me.
Emotions rule the world; Is it any wonder that it's so mucked up?!
Bill Warbis
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On 2005-01-18 13:45:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-01-18 13:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
It's going to take more of this type of programming and now that it's gotten out there once, maybe it'll stir up some more interest.
Hopefully, that will including dedicated interest in who's getting promotion out of the deal and what they're doing with it. It is not insignificant!
Look, I'll state it plainly and briefely. I honestly believe that Sue believes that she's sending kids to good places. I just don't have all that much faith in her assessments. Do you?
Not every point is going to be able to be covered in a one hour program. Carey, if you can get yourself on a similar program you'll have your chance to bitch about Sue and PURE all you want, although I think it would be counter-productive to getting the message out about abusive rehabs. It'll just make make all involved look like a bunch of 2 year olds who can't get along. Get off your high horse and be glad that at least maybe now the ball is rolling. It's a start."
Sorry, I can't agree w/ you there. I think Maia was probably the most credible voice on that show. She's actually looked at the research, what little of it there has been. And the research concludes that keeping kids in the community, rather than shipping them off, seems to be a good thing. Imagine that! Parents shipping their kids off to be forcefully reformed by strangers might have some adverse effects? My Lord! Who'd a thunk it?!
Agreed. Completely. My point was that it seems stupid to trash those that were on the program today. It's a start to getting the word out about this ENTIRE issue.
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Nah, I think it's all out there and it's all worth discussing.
If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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BTW, Jeff, would you mind clearing something up for me? I've heard that PURE keeps the Whitmore full. Is that true? You would know one way or the other, right? I mean, if you don't know even that much about what Sue does then you'd be a damned fool to give your endorsement.... oh yeah... you think an endorsement by daytime talk means something. Maybe I'll go ask Jerry Springer.
Sorry, still laughing at that... couldn't resist.... :rofl: Religion is all bunk.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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http://www.parentsupportservices.com/bb ... N=64611155 (http://www.parentsupportservices.com/bbs/index.cfm?CFID=77946&CFTOKEN=64611155)
Wouldn't you just LOVE to see what's going on at the WWASP BBS after today's airing??? :grin:
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PURE really surprises me.
They fill their pages with warnings about the camps and the need to regulate, and how awful the programs are. Then, turn around and admit they are funded by schools, and then say "sure, use OUR transporters and OUR schools!"
Its kind of obvious they're out to make money for SOMEONE.
But, hey, as much as they make aware the possiblity of BS in programs, the stupid secrecy, and the need for reform, if they are sending kids to bad places, their own desire to reform is going to bite them in their ass eventually.
Personally, I'd like WWASPS and PURE to totally tear eachother open so anyone with a pair of eyes (or fingers for braile dots?) could read for themselves what goes on inside of their respective programs.
PURE's slammed WWASPS badly. WWASPS has the legal muscle (money) to do the same to PURE.
I say pass out the popcorn and pull up a lawn chair. Whenever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force.
Thomas Jefferson: Kentucky Resolutions, 1798
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Ginger to Carey:
And I don't assume that, just because Sue's got it in for you that you must be an advocate of WWASP.
Me:
I wouldn't either, based on this. I don't think she is any kind of advocate. She is a paid informant. She sold out a large group of people, whom had nothing to do with her vendetta against Sue, for the cash, and the transient pleasure she got from upsetting Sue; and cared not a hoot who it was doing the buying, or how many it might hurt. No, she wouldn't advocate for them, but she'll do business with them. She isn't an advocate for WWASP; but she has made herself an associate of wwasp by virtue of her actions and acceptance of their money and the hiring of their Florida Lawyer. I mean, out of all the attorneys in Florida, she hires Alan Kipinis? There is plenty of evidence who her associates are.
No bout a dout it. And in light of who they are, Her credibility is non existent.
As for Montel - he has a much more intelligent show than the average day time talk shop. It is completely unfair to put him in the same category as Jerry and that ilk. They put together one of the better shows on the subject and do deserve some credit. If PURE helped with back ground info and phone numbers and so on, then that is reason enough to give them a nod at the end of the show.
I just wish they had given ISAC at least as much credit.
Yes, PURE is controversial and we can all debate day and night the virtues and vices - but it is clear that PURE does mean well, and is trying to help provide alternatives to the more abusive programs. This is not an all together bad thing, even if your opposed to all programs - Simply b/c there are so many families that will insist on alternatives before pulling from a proven gulag; and many others looking for an answer that will find a better alternative due to PUREs efforts. Maybe not perfect - but way better - at least in the opinions of many.
And Ginger, again, the Trekkers list had nothing to do with PURE; and the members have no idea what programs PURE might refer to - except that they aint wwasp. Your a bit out of line hammering Jeff on this point. He likely wouldn't know and neither do I.
And for those who aren't familiar with all this - PURE does not have programs. They are not at all comparable with WWASP. They would be more comparable to Lon Woodberry or Tom Croke. There are programs PURE refers to - but there are no PURE programs.
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why don't we attack the public high schools and their dismal record with drugs, alcohol,
teenage pregnancy, suicide, abuse, rapes, shootings,
knifings, depression, dropouts, drunk driving.
sorry, but i don't want my daughter in that environment any longer and as an individual i have seen the positive results in my daughter and that is all i need, not any sensationalistic viewpoints from people i don't know or care about.
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Its too bad they didnt mention WWASPS' affiliate/referral program where parents make thousands off sending teens to these facilities.
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What are you supposed to be geting at with your post, anon?
Send her to a REAL private school, not a private program. Theology: The effort to explain the unknowable in terms of the not worth knowing.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher
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On 2005-01-18 22:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Its too bad they didnt mention WWASPS' affiliate/referral program where parents make thousands off sending teens to these facilities."
Making thousands of dollars? That's funny! They are extended a free month of tuition. It is not a money making business, but a passion for their family. Sharing what has changed their lives to friends who are losing their own child is not selfish.
Geez. I know a few therapists who extend a free session to anyone who refers someone to them.
P.S. The parents don't send other peoples teens to the programs - They actually take the time to talk with other parents about it - not just the "good" stuff either. No parent is stupid enough to make it sound too good to be true.
I didn't see the Montel show. Don't care to either. If it was as one-sided as it reads here, then he was looking for ratings, not the truth.
I pray PURE's heart is in the right place for the lost kids and their families and not for their 'hate" for the best thing (Cross Creek and WWASPS) that was there for our family in a time of crisis.
Be tsy
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Yeah, just ignore everything he said and we have to say, just block it out, and repeat your press-releases, denials, and program speak.
Just ignore the lack of oversight and regulation, that its a money making business, that everything leads back to gilcrease's seminars, that people in there if they are abused have no way to call out for help, and that we still havent seen any kind of real therapy or screening for NECESSITY of the program.
Yeah. Good idea! Just look at the "end results" and dont give any attention to the methods and initial conditions! INNER CHILD! BEAT THE CHAIR!I swear by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
* - ~ Galt's Creed ~ - *
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Not so PURE is PURE. But nowadays corruption rears it's ugly head in just about everything. I am an advocate of WWASP but not for everyone. Only those who like me wouldn't listen to anyone. Private schools were a joke to me. I had fun (back then) corrupting them, pushing the limits, and running away. They also are not for everyone.
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Karen you said:
but it is clear that PURE does mean well
It might be clear to you Karen, but it is not clear to me. She herself sends kids to unregulated programs. Why is it ok for her to do so? What makes her uneducated decisions more precious than that of her adversaries? Does she know everyone who works with the kids in these programs? Has she done criminal background checks on their employees. Does she spend quality time at each institution to make sure that the proper education is being provided and that each employee is qualified to teach these at risk teens? How does she know whether or not kids are being abused in the programs she refers to? What guarantee can she give to parents, and more specifically to the teens, that makes her so much better in your eyes.
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this topic went to hell in a hand basket? i was impressed with the show though.
who watched the show and got a P.U.R.E. vs WWASPS feeling?
i could have sworn; it was Montel, straight survivors and wwasps surviors, along with their parents?
how, why and who; continues to drag up the "P' vs. "W" scnereo? if one facility or program is closed via this airing. or heaven forbid it changed a parents mind about sending little johnnie/susie to a "school" of this nature.
just be content that these things are NOW reaching the public forums; such as fornits, isac's and even day time talk shows and many others who continue to support regulation, closure or non-exsitance of these teen hell holes.
quit the inner back biting and drama.
what if each and everyone of us did something for the cause in one entire day...that's right, put all of this knowledge along with the will power to do something PRODUCTIVE and stop this form of "child abuse"!
Just try it one day...one day only and see what is accomplished?
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On 2005-01-19 09:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
who watched the show and got a P.U.R.E. vs WWASPS feeling?
Anyone who saw the info. screen saying "Contact P.U.R.E. for more info..." Just when you think you see the light at the end of the tunnel, look out for an oncoming train. I'm just looking out, that's all. As far as my hammering Jeff, well if he's going to use words like hero (I suppose cause so many people might misunderstand the term heroine) then he ought to know something about this person and her actions that he defends.
If you guys honestly don't know even the names of the programs to which Sue refers people, Ok. So then we know that you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Thanks for clearing that up.
And yes, there was a promo screen for WWASP too. I'm sure it was all about covering liability. And I agree that Montel is a lot more credible than most other talk shows. But that's not saying much. I'm glad the show was done. I'm glad the topic is being addressed for the daytime talk adience. They are, after all, probably the big purchasers in this industry.
But I didn't enjoy the show. Frankly, it brought back a lot of bad memories. I fucking hate seeing Sammie cry again publicly over these very private issues. I had to keep reminding myself that she's a grown woman and knows what she's doing and I shouldn't worry about her. But, in a big way, watching that was just a whole lot like being back in group. I half expected Montel to start calling on audience members to tear her down. Yeah, I know that wasn't going to happen because it was taped prior and I think Sammie would have called me up and yelled at me or something.
I'm profoundly grateful to everybody who made this happen, even Sue and Mr. Pollack. But, again, what's that i hear? Sounds like it might be a train whistle. Please understand that I have to check and make sure, ok?
It's our goddamn duty to get these people back on drugs so they can think for themselves again!!!
RTP2003
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I can get on the bbs, but just for my school, i believe. I can try to log onto others, but don't think I can.
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Ginger,
I am new to all of this, as you know, but I was wondering, what is the deal with Sue Scheff? What does she do, good or bad? All I've seen is her web site. Please explain.
Thanks!
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i don't think i mentioned being affiliated with either side?
just made a few remarks about the "P" vs. "W" issue and this show not having anything to do with either.
i did mention this topic and how glad i was to see it on a daytime talk show exposing people who abuse children as far as i was concerned. grant it, i didn't enjoy anyone crying or having to inform everyone in a public forum that they had been abused. like i said before i did enjoy that this topic was finally making it's ways to the public airwaves and informing those who may not have experienced what most of us on here have. whether it be from an incarcerated child's POV or a parent who made a bad decision, IMHO.
noth'in bout a train, whistle or watching for one. i just thought it was great that the american public witnessed first hand what these unfortunate people were subjected to. and that it should stop, regardless of who, when or what got the media involved.
jeff's a big boy and can argue his own opinion's?
i don't know who P.U.R.E. refers to nor do i care who they are affiliated with.
seems to me everyone got their fair share of advertising in during the breaks. no one more than any other. I, like you, am very glad that the audience wasn't involved nor allowed to question the guests. then it probablly could have turned into an event?
i don't care who made this show happen, just thankful that it did and will now be content. thanks to who ever contributed to this event; isac's, fornits, sammie and sisters, jeff, sue, carey, p.u.r.e., mr. pollack, mr. france and son, shannon and daughter, maia, and so forth.
gotta go, i hear something...
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It was hard for me to watch Samantha and I don't even know her. I didn't enjoy the show either, but I am glad it got made and I hope they do more.
'Bout this:
If you guys honestly don't know even the names of the programs to which Sue refers people, Ok. So then we know that you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Thanks for clearing that up.
OK -
If I were to talk about what Programs PURE refers to, I would not know what I was talking about. Thats why I don't talk about it.
This does not mean I don't know what I'm talking about, but rather, that if I am talking about something, it is likely with some actual knowledge. When speculating, I try and make that clear as well.
'Bout this:
As far as my hammering Jeff, well if he's going to use words like hero (I suppose cause so many people might misunderstand the term heroine) then he ought to know something about this person and her actions that he defends.
I don't want to speak for Jeff, but I know there is a general feeling amoung many, that Sue is some what heroic for seeing the wwasp vs pure thing through. She could easily have agreed to settle and saved herself lots of stress and grief but she hung in for the long haul; and as a result, we have finely got a public record of the abuse and neglect that takes place in WWASPS' programs. This is no small thing. Lots of people apreciate that fact and are greatful; and some might use the word hero as a result. It does have a sort of David against Goliath air about it.
[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-01-19 13:21 ][ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-01-19 13:22 ]
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PURE's own bullcrap gives me the Soviet role in WW2 feeling. (if you'd consider WWASPS the nazis)
Sure, they helped now, but they just set up another regeme in the place of the old one. Sorry for the metaphor but I dont really know how else to put it.
PURE is secretive, obviously paid for by the schools (they said so on their website) and while they lambast schools right and left, they go right after that "oh, have US kidnap your kids and take them to this school we say is okay!"
Thats hogwash.The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins; all of them imaginary.
H.L. Mencken, 1923
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ever play baseball? you should because you would make a great "right" fielder, since you are in left field now? go pick some daiseys
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Ginger,
What I think could be a positive about Sanmmy crying would be that it should to the watching public how profoundly damaging these programs can be. Obviously the woman is still traumatized by her experience.
Watching Montel reinforced how much I despise the Program.
IMO it appeared everyone was sincere in their message.
I don't think Montel has much respect for Ken Kay.
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On 2005-01-19 17:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"ever play baseball? you should because you would make a great "right" fielder, since you are in left field now? go pick some daiseys"
(http://http://home.ripway.com/2004-8/154813/jub-jub.jpg)
What kind of humanism expresses its reluctance to sacrifice military casualties by devastating the civilian economy of its adversary for decades to come?
Henry Kissinger
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-01-19 18:30 ]
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On 2005-01-19 13:12:00, BuzzKill wrote:
I don't want to speak for Jeff, but I know there is a general feeling amoung many, that Sue is some what heroic for seeing the wwasp vs pure thing through.
...
It does have a sort of David against Goliath air about it.
Buzzkill, I agree that Sue and friends did a good thing by standing up to WWASP. Not just for people interested in this industry, either. It was a good thing to do all the way around.
Chi3, Sue had a kid in a WWASP program then later sued them. While she was still involved w/ WWASP, she did some referal work. Now she refers people to other programs. But, as you can see, there's something mysterious and secret about which programs those would be.
Good? Bad? Not quite as bad as worst? I don't know, it's a secret. I'd like to know. I've asked enough. But no one who does know will talk about it.
See, it really sort of loses the David vs Goliath thing when you consider that David was defending his village against a giant while Sue is just defending her business interests. I also sincerely believe that she believes that the two are one and the same. But I don't believe that w/o some sort of evidence. And therein seems to lie the dispute.
As I've said, I'm also glad the show went on and deeply apreciate what went into it. I just thought people ought to know that, good as all that is, being at odds w/ WWASP doesn't prove that PURE is actually helping the people she rescues from WWASP. So whenever I see PURE presented as a solution to the WWASP problem, I remind people to look before you leap (again!)
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.
--Plato
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I just love how PURE loves to fill their website with cries for reform and regulation and about how you cant trust these places, but then they turn around and tell you to trust THEIR kidnappers(escorts) and THEIR programs.
Also, Ginger, shes linking to your site! LOL!
http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/toc.htm (http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/toc.htm) is linked to on http://www.helpyourteens.com/true_story.html (http://www.helpyourteens.com/true_story.html)
Whatever. PURE is just a damn business competetor - kind of makes me sick she saw the BS in the programs and isntead of genuinely trying to STOP the abuse, she turns around and tries to make a buck off of the industry!
We still dont know who she sends them to or what goes on in those programs... no more than the WWASPS programs. Hell, probably less.
Another thing, from their FAQ page:
8. How is P.U.R.E. funded?
P.U.R.E. is funded by several schools and programs as well as private funding. We are part of a pro-active community in getting our children the help they may need. Our community recognizes that our children are the future. Our motto is: Bringing families back together?
That speaks for itself.Cops; you wake `em up you gotta dance with `em. They lead.
-- Jack McNulty
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PURE's own bullcrap gives me the Soviet role in WW2 feeling. (if you'd consider WWASPS the nazis)
Sure, they helped now, but they just set up another regeme in the place of the old one. Sorry for the metaphor but I dont really know how else to put it.
PURE is secretive, obviously paid for by the schools (they said so on their website) and while they lambast schools right and left, they go right after that "oh, have US kidnap your kids and take them to this school we say is okay!"
Thats hogwash.
I just love how PURE loves to fill their website with cries for reform and regulation and about how you cant trust these places, but then they turn around and tell you to trust THEIR kidnappers(escorts) and THEIR programs.
Also, Ginger, shes linking to your site! LOL!
http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/toc.htm (http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/toc.htm) is linked to on http://www.helpyourteens.com/true_story.html (http://www.helpyourteens.com/true_story.html)
Whatever. PURE is just a damn business competetor - kind of makes me sick she saw the BS in the programs and isntead of genuinely trying to STOP the abuse, she turns around and tries to make a buck off of the industry!
We still dont know who she sends them to or what goes on in those programs... no more than the WWASPS programs. Hell, probably less.
Another thing, from their FAQ page:
8. How is P.U.R.E. funded?
P.U.R.E. is funded by several schools and programs as well as private funding. We are part of a pro-active community in getting our children the help they may need. Our community recognizes that our children are the future. Our motto is: Bringing families back together?
That speaks for itself.
See, it really sort of loses the David vs Goliath thing when you consider that David was defending his village against a giant while Sue is just defending her business interests.
You both have hit the nail right on the head!!!!
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Perri, I asked you in another thread for your opinion about what makes the parents go along.
I don't know who our anon poster is, but I think it's safe to assume they're afilliated w/ WWASP in some way. And I think the sentiments and websites that they cite are probably geared toward the parents more than to anybody else. Is that pretty much an acceptable premis?
I won't kill time here going down the list of reasons why their explanation doesn't explain it. That's been done to death around here to the point where it distracts from more meaningful discussion. And I'm pretty sure I understand your position on it as you've explained it. Can we agree that the rebuttal site explanation just doesn't all add up?
Here's what I'm getting to. I think the above is a fairly good answer to my question. This is how they get parents to go along, pay the money, abide by the rules even when they make NO sense, etc. It's essentially the same as the old Emperor's New Clothes parable. They sell them on the idea that smart, enlightened, good parents see how wonderful this is, so disparaging anyone who doesn't "get it".
What do you think?Web pages are like babies -- creation involves a level of enthusiasm that does not necessarily carry over into maintenance.
--Joe Chew
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On 2005-01-20 06:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
You both have hit the nail right on the head!!!!"
Thank you! I want to add something, though. Let me repeat that I'm pretty well convinced that Sue believes in what she's doing. I've seen it before. Art Barker certainly believed in what he was doing. I know it as well as I know anything. If he had been that good an actor, he would never have washed out on Vaudeville.
And I'm a big believer in free market capitalism. Just because she's making a living doesen't prove to me that she's evil. Everybody's got a right to make a living, and all the better if you can do something worthwhile at the same time.
I just haven't been convinced that what PURE is doing is significantly better or different from what WWASP is doing or what CEDU/Brown is doing or what the Palmers are doing in Jay Florida.
I believe much of the bad press that WWASP gets. And I know for a fact that Sammie's telling the truth about the way things were in Straight because I was there from `80 - `83. I was her oldcomer. I remember when they brought her into group after she had split. I remember many kids getting sat on for hours or thrown in timeout rooms, with or without "company" for hours or days. I can't swear to knowledge of the rape because, of course, I wasn't in the room. But I can tell you that, if she had tried to tell me about it at the time, I wouldn't have believed her and she would have been punished when I reported her for telling me.
As a kid in the program, staff was above reproach. As an adult looking back, it seems obvious that if you put a bunch of helpless kids in the care of other kids who hold complete power over them, guess what? Some of them are going to be raped!
And these same kinds of stories have been coming out of these same quack therapy cults for decades now.
The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.
--John Gilmour
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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On 2005-01-20 16:44:00, Antigen wrote:
"
As a kid in the program, staff was above reproach. As an adult looking back, it seems obvious that if you put a bunch of helpless kids in the care of other kids who hold complete power over them, guess what? Some of them are going to be raped!"
I think this goes doubly so for kids who have to put up with as much shit as straight kids did to get to have the power that they did.
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I have never really looked at all the commercials or such going for the program. What I do know is that there are a lot of misconceptions on these programs. People are under the impression that it is a fix it all and that any kid should go to be straightened out. I believe that that's due to how the program portrays themselves as well as parent's that are so desperate that they are almost willing to hear anything to find an absolution. I think that desperate measures can equal desperate thinking. The two become hand in hand.
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Many psychologists are recomending these faciities to families with difficult teenagers. This is a major problem. Also most people don't have a clue about what really happens behind the locked doors.
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I HAVE NEWS!!!!!!!!!
AS OF YESTERDAY AT 4:30 WE NOW HAVE OUR DAUGHTER BACK SAFE AND SOUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WE WENT TO CSA AND GOT HER, THEY WERE NO PROBLEMS, ONLY THE HOUSPARENTS THERE. WE ONLY SAW 2 ADULTS, BOTH WHO MY DAUGHTER SAID HAD TREATED HER WELL. SHE CRIED AND CRIED. SHE WAS NEAR HYSTERICAL SHE WAS SO OVERWHELMED. IT WAS THE BEST DECISION. I AM SO HAPPY TO HAVE HER BACK!!!!!! SHE HAS CHANGED SO MUCH. SHE IS READY TO GO ON WITH THE REST OF HER LIFE. LATER, WHEN THINGS HAVE SETTLED DOWN, I AM GOING TO PUT HER ON HERE AND LET HER TELL ANYONE WHO WANTS TO ASK QUESTIONS, WHATEVER SHE WANTS TO ANSWER. THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR THE SUPPORT YOU HAVE GIVEN ME OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS. I WILL BE BACK ON MYSELF TOMMORROW OR THE NEXT DAY, THANKS AGAIN, EVERYONE.
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On 2005-01-23 18:49:00, chi3 wrote:
"I HAVE NEWS!!!!!!!!!
AS OF YESTERDAY AT 4:30 WE NOW HAVE OUR DAUGHTER BACK SAFE AND SOUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WE WENT TO CSA AND GOT HER, THEY WERE NO PROBLEMS, ONLY THE HOUSPARENTS THERE. WE ONLY SAW 2 ADULTS, BOTH WHO MY DAUGHTER SAID HAD TREATED HER WELL. SHE CRIED AND CRIED. SHE WAS NEAR HYSTERICAL SHE WAS SO OVERWHELMED. IT WAS THE BEST DECISION. I AM SO HAPPY TO HAVE HER BACK!!!!!! SHE HAS CHANGED SO MUCH. SHE IS READY TO GO ON WITH THE REST OF HER LIFE. LATER, WHEN THINGS HAVE SETTLED DOWN, I AM GOING TO PUT HER ON HERE AND LET HER TELL ANYONE WHO WANTS TO ASK QUESTIONS, WHATEVER SHE WANTS TO ANSWER. THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR THE SUPPORT YOU HAVE GIVEN ME OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS. I WILL BE BACK ON MYSELF TOMMORROW OR THE NEXT DAY, THANKS AGAIN, EVERYONE."
Glad to hear that she is home now. I hope your relationship w/ her gets better and both of you are able to heal from all the past wounds.
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On 2005-01-23 18:49:00, chi3 wrote:
"I HAVE NEWS!!!!!!!!!
AS OF YESTERDAY AT 4:30 WE NOW HAVE OUR DAUGHTER BACK SAFE AND SOUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce::
LATER, WHEN THINGS HAVE SETTLED DOWN, I AM GOING TO PUT HER ON HERE AND LET HER TELL ANYONE WHO WANTS TO ASK QUESTIONS, WHATEVER SHE WANTS TO ANSWER.
That's great, but no rush. She may need time to process all of this. I can't tell you how happy I am for both of you!!!!!!!!!!!
THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR THE SUPPORT YOU HAVE GIVEN ME OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS. I WILL BE BACK ON MYSELF TOMMORROW OR THE NEXT DAY, THANKS AGAIN, EVERYONE."
Are you kidding?? :wink: THIS makes it all worthwhile. It's times like this that help us to remember why we keep talking about these places even though some of us have been out for years, even decades now. THIS is why. Tonight there is a kid who is back where she belongs, safe in her mother's arms.
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GO CHI!!!!! :wave:
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad.
-- Salvador Dali
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just wanted to let you all know things are going really well. she has told me soooo much about CSA. she is excited about being home, we asked her what she wanted to do education-wise, as she is extremely smart. she was very excited about going to a real college prep boarding school that we toured a few days ago. she feels it might get her in one of the better colleges, as she would like. she likes the idea of being away from her previous bad influences and making new friends, yet being home all weekend, i think this might be very good for her. she says she doesn't want to get back involved with those people and she feels it would be difficult to keep completely away from them if she is here. the school she likes is very fancy! pools, tennis courts, big labs, huge library,sports, big nice dorms.And...you actually can get a real education there without mind control, and it is about half of what the wwasps "program" costs. she said she felt so filthy the entire time she was at CSA. she said is was absolutely nasty. she feared touching the shower walls, bottom,etc. and she said she wanted to cry everytime they made them sit on that nasty floor. she also said it was "fairly" common for some of the kids to be restrained and taken to OP. she said she didn't know exactly what they did there except you could hear lots of screaming and crying. she said kids would be screaming quit touching me! quit, you're hurting me! Also, there were a lot more runaways that I had heard about. about 7-8 in 3 mos. i can honestly say she was completely overwhelmed when we took her out. she has been in major sensory overload. she has begged us over and over not to send her back, even though we have already told her we wouldn't, about a dozen times. I can only say that i would never have sent her there in the first place, had i not been lied to, and now there's no way i would ever consider it. she says prison has to be better......
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I hope she does well. Good luck to her. I'm glad you did what you felt was right. :grin: :grin: :grin:
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I would have her tell c.p.s in south carolina, and the police department, I would also have her contact the health department about the conditions. I'm so glad you brought her home.
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Thank you so much for being a sensible enough person to *not* drink the Kool-Aid and to get your daughter out of that mess.
I'm glad you've found a good traditional boarding school to help her get a fresh start.
Timoclea
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Chi , Your comment that your daughter said Prison would be better, brings to mind a memory of my son telling me Jail was a cake walk after Dundee. It was so much less stressful and abusive that he felt spending time in jail would hardly be a deterrent after having been in the program!
Hardly the effect the patents are hoping for, I can tell you!
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Right now our main focus is on getting her settled where she feels happy and safe. then, after i get a chance to breathe then we'll see what we need to do about whatever she tells us. I plan on keeping on with this search for information about that place and those people. I want to be able to help someone else, if possible. Also, I have had this question for quite a while, does anyone know exactly what happened to make Sue Scheff pull her daughter from CSA? was it just the seminars, not being able to see her kid, or what? maybe no one knows the whole story, but if you have any info, i would like to hear it. I just want to know strictly out of curiousity what she saw, or heard to make her take action. I mean, for me, there were lots of things, but I wanted to definately after learning all of the things I did.
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Watch out for Sue and PURE though. PURE is way too secretive and nonforthcoming with its own methods and processes (god I hate that word now) and is paid for by some programs.
Anyone who wasnt born yesterday could guess its the ones she sends kids too.
She might be one of the good guys but just really secretive, or she might have something to hide. I dont know. We DONT until we start seeing some facts.
Her page details all the crap on wwasps she went through. Its http://www.helpyourteens.com (http://www.helpyourteens.com)Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.
--Winston Churchill
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Chi,
If you want to know what happened to Sue's daughter ask her. Her number is on her website.
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I'll second that sugggestion. Give her a call. You'll find her to be friendly and open.
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Yeah, but is she gonna give us info on the programs she sends kids to? Probably not!
What, her girl gets out of WWASPS and now you want her in PURE programs?
Kiss my ass...
No, kiss Chi3's ass and her daughters ass. With soap, baptism is a good thing.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
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not to worry, my kiddo is never going near another one of those places, I don't care if Busch recommends it! :grin: ! I will never have her "programmed" by anyone again. Luckily, she wasn't there long enough to get really sucked in. I was only curious about Sue Scheff, becuase when I read Pure's web site and her story, I didn't get a clear picture of what exactlly happened. Just asking for someone who has had a prolem w/ CSA to tell me what was the ehdpoint for them.
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On 2005-01-26 23:02:00, chi3 wrote:
"not to worry, my kiddo is never going near another one of those places, I don't care if Busch recommends it! :smile:
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I'll second that sugggestion. Give her a call. You'll find her to be friendly and open.
Open? If she were open she would post the schools on her site.
Friendly? All educational consultants are friendly when trying to make a buck, if they were not, then they would not be very successful, now whould they?
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//What, her girl gets out of WWASPS and now you want her in PURE programs?
Kiss my ass...
No, kiss Chi3's ass and her daughters ass. //
Niles, you are becoming an ass.
Chi said she would like to talk with Sue about CSA, and what her experience there was. They have CSA in common and its natural she would want to talk to her about it.
She was advised to call her and talk to her if she wants to. That's all.
You'd be wise to think things through before hitting send. Just slow down little and ask yourself if you really want to post that. Ask yourself does it really add anything to the debate; or is it just muck raking. Also, you have fallen into the habit of posting replies after barely reading the post your responding to. This is having the effect of you not knowing what your talking about. Just slow down some and think.
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Go Nihilanthic! I think you have hit a nerve with Karen.
If she doesn't choose a PURE program then Karen will help her to enroll in ALA. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Karen, nobody needs to take your advise on posting. Remember, you don't know anything, you just "trust" and have "blind faith" in what you endorse.
Most of the rest of us are just not satisfied with that.
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And your advice will land him in the same sorry situation your in. You are the biggest ass of all.
I think Chi has said she already has a school picked out and both she and her daughter are happy with it.
Nothing about her wanting to talk with Sue had to do with finding a program. It was about the disire to talk with someone whoes had the same experaince.
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Nihilanthic,
My suggestion was for Chi to call and ask about what happenedd to Sue's daughter.You or I are not in a postion to answer Chi's question.I think it may be very enlightening for Chi to her what DID happened to the daughter. It was not healthy.
I wonder if Chi has considered a good attorney for Fraud and neglect.
Its illegeal to defraud people for money.
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Here's a link to some video of Büsh endorsing Straight, Inc. among other bits and pieces.
http://thestraights.com/video/video_list.htm (http://thestraights.com/video/video_list.htm)The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.
--Abraham Lincoln, U.S. President
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And your advice will land him in the same sorry situation your in.
And what situation is that?
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I'm aware that Chi3 isnt sending her daughter to any such place again, but I was a bit miffed at the baghead referring to ANOTHER group of programs, that being PURE.
I'm not sorry for what I said about PURE and Sue, Buzzkill. I'm not EVER going to be unless she starts giving out a list of programs and explaining how they operate and which of those programs give money to PURE.
Dont like it? Tough! Why are we all here, Karen?
BTW - I did read the whole post. It was more a comment to the ANONYMOUS person telling Chi3 to call Sue. I wondered if there was any inclination to get Chi3 to send her kid off to somewhere.
If there wasnt, and it was *JUST* about calling sue to find out about CSA, then fine, I apologize.
But, I still dont like Sue, OR PURE.
Our nada who art in nada, nada be thy name. Thy kingdom nada, thy will be nada as it is in nada. Give us this nada our daily nada and nada us our nada as we nada our nadas and nada us into nada but deliver us from nada; pues nada. Hail nothing full of nothing, nothing is with thee.
--Ernest Hemingway, American author
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Nihilanthic,
I'm the bag head who accepts your apology. Thanks for offering it.
I suggested Chi call to dicuss the abuses at CSA.
I would NEVER EVER referr a child to a program.
I'm still recovering from our program experience.
I do think it may be a greta idea to consult an attorney. Fraud is criminal.
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Just so you know, you can get a meaningless name and still be anonymous, but we can identify your posts by it. (look whose speaking here :razz:)
And yeah... Sue confuses me. I have a LOT of difficulty believing any mom would use her kids horror story to propogate more of the same shit that her own kid went through. I guess theres more to it than what we see... which is obviously nothing.
I dunno, i'm just defensive and a skeptic. Thanks for accepting my apology! None of Nature's landscapes are ugly so long as they are wild.
-- John Muir
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Karen you said:
but it is clear that PURE does mean well
It might be clear to you Karen, but it is not clear to me. She herself sends kids to unregulated programs. Why is it ok for her to do so? What makes her uneducated decisions more precious than that of her adversaries? Does she know everyone who works with the kids in these programs? Has she done criminal background checks on their employees. Does she spend quality time at each institution to make sure that the proper education is being provided and that each employee is qualified to teach these at risk teens? How does she know whether or not kids are being abused in the programs she refers to? What guarantee can she give to parents, and more specifically to the teens, that makes her so much better in your eyes.
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PURE and Sue Scheff have not proven they "mean well" by any means. Sue Scheff continued to refer kids to Whitmore Academy after the owners, the Sudweeks, were being investigated for child abuse, and after Cheryl Sudweeks was charged with abusing 4 children. What's "well-meaning" about that? Opinion: it's all about money.
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Guess even threads can come back from the dead :silly:
Though, I would like to see Karens input on this a good 10-11 months later :grin:When elephants ? ght, it is the grass that suffers.
Kikuyu proverb