Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: Anonymous on January 12, 2005, 08:48:00 PM
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Is this the real reason why Helen left and started LIFE? I heard this in the early 80's. ANy truth to that LIFERS? Fish eating Helen?
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On 2005-01-12 17:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Is this the real reason why Helen left and started LIFE? I heard this in the early 80's. ANy truth to that LIFERS? Fish eating Helen? "
i like fish! :lol:
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On 2005-01-24 11:52:00, dbucfan wrote:
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On 2005-01-12 17:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Is this the real reason why Helen left and started LIFE? I heard this in the early 80's. ANy truth to that LIFERS? Fish eating Helen? "
i like fish! :lol: "
Beam me up, Scotty... there are no intelligent LIFErs down here.
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On 2005-01-24 13:58:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
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On 2005-01-24 11:52:00, dbucfan wrote:
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On 2005-01-12 17:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Is this the real reason why Helen left and started LIFE? I heard this in the early 80's. ANy truth to that LIFERS? Fish eating Helen? "
i like fish! ::troll::
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Hey Darren, do you even know what a troll is?
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I don't even know about her. All I learned recently is that when my brother was in Straight Inc. trying to become a staff member, that he turned in my family bible to Petermann. Her group failed after I left. All the book learners came in. She invited the media circus, not me. LIFE was a really easy place to be. Considering her past and what I've learned. But those damned peer staffers just didn't know to even stop running their mouths even while we were trying to eat our shitty food in our worn out unclean clothes.Boring rap sessions anyway. Really boring. :smokin:
If it is believed that... elementary schools will be better managed by the governor and council, the commissioners of the literary fund or any other general authority of the government than by the parents within each ward, it is a belief against all experience.
Thomas Jefferson
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On 2005-01-25 12:16:00, The Seeker wrote:
" LIFE was a really easy place to be. Considering her past and what I've learned. But those damned peer staffers just didn't know to even stop running their mouths even while we were trying to eat our shitty food in our worn out unclean clothes.Boring rap sessions anyway. Really boring. :smokin:
LIFE may have been easier than some of the places that are or were out there but it was still awful. I don't know when you were there but I would have taken a boring rap over a Susan Crandall rap anyday of the week. She was hell in heels are a bitch to boot.
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MY program was more bad than YOUR program.
A kinder gentler kind of abuse,huh?
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On 2005-01-24 19:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey Darren, do you even know what a troll is?
"
Someone who replies to every post possible to incite an argument or show their ASS. one who thinks that everyone should be as miserable as she is...agree with her without a fault even if it seems overblown and assuming. just an overall pain in the ass who is here for our amusement.
Love
Darren :rofl:
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On 2005-01-27 04:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"MY program was more bad than YOUR program.
A kinder gentler kind of abuse,huh?"
or maybe NONE AT ALL!!!! naw thats not possible...everyone was abused who attended the program. :scared:
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On 2005-01-27 16:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2005-01-24 19:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey Darren, do you even know what a troll is?
"
Someone who replies to every post possible to incite an argument or show their ASS. one who thinks that everyone should be as miserable as she is...agree with her without a fault even if it seems overblown and assuming. just an overall pain in the ass who is here for our amusement.
Love
Darren :rofl: "
Not quite: http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/t/troll.html (http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/t/troll.html)
Actually, you should check yourself. You are the one who is throwing out personal attacks because I don't agree with your opinion of the program. I asked how you justify the methods used, on what grounds do you consider them correct, and if you would subject your own children to them.
That is the spirit of this entire board - to discuss what was wrong with the programs. A troll is also defined as someone who baits others with another opinion just to get a rise out of them, but may not genuinely hold that opinion. Believe me, my feelings about LIFE and the other programs are genuine.
My intention was to engage in an objective discussion - not a pissing match with you and and the other Anons.
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On 2005-01-28 06:49:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
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On 2005-01-27 16:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2005-01-24 19:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey Darren, do you even know what a troll is?
"
Someone who replies to every post possible to incite an argument or show their ASS. one who thinks that everyone should be as miserable as she is...agree with her without a fault even if it seems overblown and assuming. just an overall pain in the ass who is here for our amusement.
Love
Darren :rofl: "
Not quite: http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/t/troll.html (http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/t/troll.html)
Actually, you should check yourself. You are the one who is throwing out personal attacks because I don't agree with your opinion of the program. I asked how you justify the methods used, on what grounds do you consider them correct, and if you would subject your own children to them.
That is the spirit of this entire board - to discuss what was wrong with the programs. A troll is also defined as someone who baits others with another opinion just to get a rise out of them, but may not genuinely hold that opinion. Believe me, my feelings about LIFE and the other programs are genuine.
My intention was to engage in an objective discussion - not a pissing match with you and and the other Anons.
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I still think you fit the description because i cant say anything without a smart comment and you are FAR from objective...anyway i have answered your questions in the past...the methods worked for me...and while a bit uncomfortable and not much fun...nothing was taken away that i could not earn back...i was never "abused"(to clarify i by no means think that kids were not abused in a program)i believe that i appreciated my life, the world, my parents, quality friendships etc. so much more when i learned to stop being such a prick to my family...i actually had to take responsability for my actions that were hurting myself and my parents before i took the natural road of punishment of going to jail or injury or death...which was totally possible in my case...so i believe the methods were justified...however i can only speak for my situation. you may have been a total angel who did nothing to deserve a program...you may have had horrible parents that made a bad decision for you...or...you may have been a nasty, horrible spoiled person who thinks the world owes her something...someone who thinks that having television taken away from her is abuse...or how you NEED to use the telephone or you will die...i really dont care...all i know is that when i state my opinion and you attack me or try to shoot down everything i say or put up the "roll eye's" emoticon when i state that i didnt have staffers who made me sit in feces, blood,piss etc. you are not being objective you are being a bitch who wants to start some shit...look at yourself. :grin:
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Anon, no one's claiming that taking away television is abusive. Hell, I occasionally go on a no or limited tv kick w/ my kids just cause I think too much passive vegging out in front of the tube is bad for your mind.
And no one's complaining about the situational unpleasantness of being in the program.
Here's what I'm talking about. See if you can guess who authored this evil little recipe.
There are progressive steps in exercising control over an individual and changing his behavior and personality integration. The following five steps (in the author of this site's condensed version) are typical of behavior changes in any controlled individual.
1. Making the individual aware of control is the first stage in changing his behavior. A controlled adult comes to recognize the overwhelming powers of the state and the impersonal "incarcerative" machinery in which he is enmeshed. The individual recognizes that definite limits have been put upon the ways he can respond.
2. Realization of his complete dependence upon the controlling system is a major factor in the controlling of his behavior. The controlled adult is forced to accept the fact that food, tobacco, praise and the only social contact that he will get come from the very interrogator who exercises control over him.
3. The awareness of control and recognition of dependence result in causing internal conflict and breakdown of previous patterns of behavior. Only an individual who holds his values lightly can change them easily. Since the brainwasher-interrogators aim to have the individuals undergo profound emotional change, they force their victims to seek out painfully what is desired by the controlling individual. During this period the victim is likely to have a mental breakdown characterized by delusions and hallucinations.
4. Discovery that there is an acceptable solution to his problem is the first stage of reducing the individual's conflict. It is characteristically reported by victims of brainwashing that this discovery led to an overwhelming feeling of relief that the horror of internal conflict would cease and that perhaps they would not, after all, be driven insane. It is at this point that they are prepared to make major changes in their value-system. This is an automatic rather than voluntary choice. They have lost their ability to be critical.
5. Reintegration of values and identification with the controlling system is the final stage in changing the behavior of the controlled individual. A child who has learned a new, socially desirable behavior demonstrates its importance by attempting to adapt the new behavior to a variety of other situations. Similar states in the brainwashed adult are pitiful. His new value-system, his manner of perceiving, organizing and giving meaning to events, is virtually independent of his former value-system. He is no longer capable of thinking or speaking in concepts other than those he has adopted. He tends to identify by expressing thanks to his captors for helping him see the light. Brainwashing can be achieved without using illegal means. Anyone willing to use known principle of control and reactions to control and capable of demonstrating the patience needed in raising a child can probably achieve successful brainwashing.
I tried not to work for, you know, anyone who ate children with their bare hands. I won't pretend that I was ideologically consistent.
--Dick Morris; Political consultant for Bill Clinton, Trent Lott and Tom Ridge
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...all i know is that when i state my opinion and you attack me or try to shoot down everything i say or put up the "roll eye's" emoticon when i state that i didnt have staffers who made me sit in feces, blood,piss etc. you are not being objective you are being a bitch who wants to start some shit...look at yourself. :grin: "
Yeah, I am rolling my eyes. I'm rolling my eyes, because I saw it happen, it damned near happened to me, and other people whom I'd never MET will tell you it happened to them, yet you want to sit there and say, "Nope, not possible, because I didn't see it."
Ya know - maybe you didn't see anything. Maybe you were so blinded by light at the end of the tunnel - that oh-so-heavenly 7th step, you wanted that gold pendant so badly, that you didn't realize that people were pissing themselves in front of you. Maybe you were just so blinded by the prospect of "getting out" that you didn't see or feel all the kids you had to walk over to get there.
Fine, Darren. You got there. If LIFE/STEP was so good for you, what the fuck are you doing here?
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WHAT ABOUT THE ORIGINAL FUCKING QUESTION? FISH EATERS? I WANT THE FACTS. HMMMMMM?
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On 2005-01-28 23:34:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
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...all i know is that when i state my opinion and you attack me or try to shoot down everything i say or put up the "roll eye's" emoticon when i state that i didnt have staffers who made me sit in feces, blood,piss etc. you are not being objective you are being a bitch who wants to start some shit...look at yourself. :grin: "
Yeah, I am rolling my eyes. I'm rolling my eyes, because I saw it happen, it damned near happened to me, and other people whom I'd never MET will tell you it happened to them, yet you want to sit there and say, "Nope, not possible, because I didn't see it."
Ya know - maybe you didn't see anything. Maybe you were so blinded by light at the end of the tunnel - that oh-so-heavenly 7th step, you wanted that gold pendant so badly, that you didn't realize that people were pissing themselves in front of you. Maybe you were just so blinded by the prospect of "getting out" that you didn't see or feel all the kids you had to walk over to get there.
Fine, Darren. You got there. If LIFE/STEP was so good for you, what the fuck are you doing here?
"
I thought this was an open forum about the programs...not a one-sided bash fest...i guess both sides arent welcome here...just all the bad stuff...i misunderstood the purpose of the site...my bad...it did work for me and many others that i went through the program with...i wasnt blind...and i didnt see everything...but all i have to go on is my experience. at the same time i do believe that(for the umpteenth time) that there have been abuses in programs but a lot of what i hear is people who just dont believe in the philosophy and call it cultish...fine, opinions are great but i am an example of what happens when it's done right. i dont believe every staff member and every program is evil. i dont believe that every person that starts a program is out to harm children and teens. I think it worked for me because i realized that i was being a world class asshole, showed no respect for authority, abused alchohol etc. to some anti program people that sounds like normal teen behavior, which is to be overlooked with just a pat on the head and the understanding that we will outgrow it...never thinking that we arent learning how to be in society by being coddled and told it's ok...your just a teen. how is that OK?
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On 2005-01-29 04:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WHAT ABOUT THE ORIGINAL FUCKING QUESTION? FISH EATERS? I WANT THE FACTS. HMMMMMM? "
and who gives a shit if she was?? :???:
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This is an open forum. You are welcome to express any opinion you like. So is everyone else. Just because your opinions are challenged doesn't mean this isn't an open forum.
I don't think everyone who works at these places is evil. Some very definitely are, but a lot are misguided and wrapped up in all the scare tactics of programs...i.e. the kids will end up deadinsaneorinjail. I'm absolutely sure some believe they are doing the right and proper thing by these kids. That's part of why it's so damn scary cause they'll fight tooth and nail to defend their tactics since they view themselves as the 'saviors' of these kids. The very basis for ANY of the behav. mod. programs is to 'break' the kid. That's what has[/b] to take place in order to bring about these 'miraculous changes'. It can't happen withOUT breaking them. Therein lie the fundamental dangers. A good head and good heart are always a formidable combination. But when you add to that a literate tongue or pen, then you have something very special
--Nelson Mandela
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On 2005-01-29 09:34:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:
"This is an open forum. You are welcome to express any opinion you like. So is everyone else. Just because your opinions are challenged doesn't mean this isn't an open forum.
I don't think everyone who works at these places is evil. Some very definitely are, but a lot are misguided and wrapped up in all the scare tactics of programs...i.e. the kids will end up deadinsaneorinjail. I'm absolutely sure some believe they are doing the right and proper thing by these kids. That's part of why it's so damn scary cause they'll fight tooth and nail to defend their tactics since they view themselves as the 'saviors' of these kids. The very basis for ANY of the behav. mod. programs is to 'break' the kid. That's what has[/b] to take place in order to bring about these 'miraculous changes'. It can't happen withOUT breaking them. Therein lie the fundamental dangers. A good head and good heart are always a formidable combination. But when you add to that a literate tongue or pen, then you have something very special
--Nelson Mandela
"
I dont feel broken. I have read on this site and the straights about these scare tactics...screaming at kids etc. but at life it never happened in group or the Res. or in a foster home so i dont have any experience with it but it sounds horrible.
D.
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On 2005-01-29 09:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
I dont feel broken. I have read on this site and the straights about these scare tactics...screaming at kids etc. but at life it never happened in group or the Res. or in a foster home so i dont have any experience with it but it sounds horrible.
D.
I'm very curious about what did go on in LIFE.
As I just posted in another thread, I spent about 2 hours in an intake room at LIFE. This was after two years at Straight and a battle through the family courts to get out. They gave me a back door, btw. No solid judgement or vindication, just permission to leave the state around 6 weeks before my 18th birthday and a quiet aside from my HRS lawyer to miss the flight back.
But the whole intake process was just the same as at Straight and as what I had expected even two years prior from hearing so much about Seed intakes.
Basically, they put my parents somewhere and put me in an inake room. Then a couple of strangers on 4th phase came in and started trying to convince me that I was an addict and that LIFE was all about love and kindness, not the volence of Straight. But that's exactly the same rap they gave me at Straight! No one ever beat me up in either intake room. There wasn't a whole lot of shouting or foul language in either intake. The only real differences were that 1) I knew I had a legal right to walk and 2) I had really had enough and there was no way I would sign any damned thing under any threat or pretense.
But there was no clinical screening of any kind. Just a couple of teenagers trying to earn the right to spend a little less of their time at the building by convincing me to sign in.
Has that changed at all?
At the same time, and I'm sure this is still going on at GT, every single kid who earns talk has to confess to being an addict.
So how do they do that? How do they get kids to confess to having an addiction problem with 100% success when they don't even screen for addiction upon intake? (or do anything like detox, for that matter)
Ever see anyone on front row showing signs of withdrawal? Me neither.
If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
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Please, really please[/b] go to the link I've listed below and read it. Read it with a truly open mind. Let's say for the sake of argument that there was no "abuse" when you were there (although that raises several issues in itself..definition of abuse, physical vs. psychological, which can run the gammut of being horrendously blatant to extremely subtle,) You really need to understand the basics[/b] of how these places actually work. See, no one is disputing that they work. People do change. It's the process[/b] by which this change is brought about and the fallout that concerns us. The the very basic, fundamental design of these places[/b] is dangerous in and of itself. The learned powerlessness, the guilt and shame, fear of abandonment, love bombing etc. are all very powerful weapons. Read this. It obviously explains it better than I ever could. When I read it, it knocked me right outta my socks.
CONDITIONS FOR MIND CONTROL
DR. MARGARET SINGER
(Margaret T. Singer, Ph.D., Emeritus Prof. of Psychology, Univ. of CA,
Berkeley)
THOUGHT REFORM = LANGUAGE + SOCIAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL INFLUENCE
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions)It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him.
--Arthur C. Clarke, author
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On 2005-01-29 10:13:00, Antigen wrote:
As I just posted in another thread, I spent about 2 hours in an intake room at LIFE. This was after two years at Straight and a battle through the family courts to get out. They gave me a back door, btw. No solid judgement or vindication, just permission to leave the state around 6 weeks before my 18th birthday and a quiet aside from my HRS lawyer to miss the flight back.
But the whole intake process was just the same as at Straight and as what I had expected even two years prior from hearing so much about Seed intakes.
Basically, they put my parents somewhere and put me in an inake room. Then a couple of strangers on 4th phase came in and started trying to convince me that I was an addict and that LIFE was all about love and kindness, not the volence of Straight. But that's exactly the same rap they gave me at Straight! No one ever beat me up in either intake room. There wasn't a whole lot of shouting or foul language in either intake. The only real differences were that 1) I knew I had a legal right to walk and 2) I had really had enough and there was no way I would sign any damned thing under any threat or pretense.
But there was no clinical screening of any kind. Just a couple of teenagers trying to earn the right to spend a little less of their time at the building by convincing me to sign in.
Has that changed at all?
At the same time, and I'm sure this is still going on at GT, every single kid who earns talk has to confess to being an addict.
So how do they do that? How do they get kids to confess to having an addiction problem with 100% success when they don't even screen for addiction upon intake? (or do anything like detox, for that matter)
Ever see anyone on front row showing signs of withdrawal? Me neither.
Reading this made me think of one good thing I did take from my experience with all that shit. I have a extremely acute awareness of my fight or flight response. There wasn't a lot of yelling for the first 6 hours or so of my intake. A lot of hammering me with the deadinsaneorinjail mantra. A lot of the 4th phasers telling me how wonderful their lives were. I was being told that I could either sign myself in adn leave if I wanted in 14 days or my parents would court order me and I'd be there for two years. I bought it.
Shoulda listened to my gut!! :sad:
That's one of the biggest things that pisses me off. The powerlessness. You're taught not to trust yourself. Not to trust the set of instincts we were born with. That fucked with me for a long time. The self doubt that was instilled in me buried one of the most crucial, life preserving aspects of myself for a long time.
... and the group leader was a clown.
GregFL
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On 2005-01-29 10:35:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:
Reading this made me think of one good thing I did take from my experience with all that shit. I have a extremely acute awareness of my fight or flight response. There wasn't a lot of yelling for the first 6 hours or so of my intake. A lot of hammering me with the deadinsaneorinjail mantra. A lot of the 4th phasers telling me how wonderful their lives were. I was being told that I could either sign myself in adn leave if I wanted in 14 days or my parents would court order me and I'd be there for two years. I bought it.
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Shoulda listened to my gut!! :flame:
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"You're taught not to trust yourself. Not to trust the set of instincts we were born with."
how old were you when you went in? what kind of instincts did you have from age...say 13 to 18 or even 19...at what point should a teen feel like the decisions they make are right. i dont know about you but i needed some help with my decision making in my teen years...i was making some poor choices...the program helped me.
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I needed help and practice at decision making when I was a teenager too. But the Program doesn't help w/ that. In fact, decision making is entirely against the rules. Every decision is made for you. You advance through the phases and out the door by becoming adept at guessing and articulating what the "correct" decision would be according to Program dogma and by demonstrating the ability and willingness to NOT think or act outside of that dogma.
Once I got out I had to learn all over again about decision making.
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.
--Anonymous
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On 2005-01-29 10:16:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:
"Please, really please[/b] go to the link I've listed below and read it. Read it with a truly open mind. Let's say for the sake of argument that there was no "abuse" when you were there (although that raises several issues in itself..definition of abuse, physical vs. psychological, which can run the gammut of being horrendously blatant to extremely subtle,) You really need to understand the basics[/b] of how these places actually work. See, no one is disputing that they work. People do change. It's the process[/b] by which this change is brought about and the fallout that concerns us. The the very basic, fundamental design of these places[/b] is dangerous in and of itself. The learned powerlessness, the guilt and shame, fear of abandonment, love bombing etc. are all very powerful weapons. Read this. It obviously explains it better than I ever could. When I read it, it knocked me right outta my socks.
CONDITIONS FOR MIND CONTROL
DR. MARGARET SINGER
(Margaret T. Singer, Ph.D., Emeritus Prof. of Psychology, Univ. of CA,
Berkeley)
THOUGHT REFORM = LANGUAGE + SOCIAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL INFLUENCE
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions)It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him.
--Arthur C. Clarke, author
"
Interesting that the "anti-program" posters are the ones with agenda's and seemingly feeling the need to convice everyone that they're all "brainwashed". Does anyone else see a pattern or mindset here?!
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On 2005-01-29 17:46:00, Antigen wrote:
"I needed help and practice at decision making when I was a teenager too. But the Program doesn't help w/ that. In fact, decision making is entirely against the rules. Every decision is made for you. You advance through the phases and out the door by becoming adept at guessing and articulating what the "correct" decision would be according to Program dogma and by demonstrating the ability and willingness to NOT think or act outside of that dogma.
Once I got out I had to learn all over again about decision making.
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.
--Anonymous
"
so you went from making bad choices before the program...to making NO choices in the program...to making well informed decisions after...but the good choices were because you re-taught yourself how to make good choices...not because the program made you appreciate your right to choose or decide?
darren
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On 2005-01-29 19:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
CONDITIONS FOR MIND CONTROL
DR. MARGARET SINGER
(Margaret T. Singer, Ph.D., Emeritus Prof. of Psychology, Univ. of CA,
Berkeley)
THOUGHT REFORM = LANGUAGE + SOCIAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL INFLUENCE
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions)
Interesting that the "anti-program" posters are the ones with agenda's and seemingly feeling the need to convice everyone that they're all "brainwashed". Does anyone else see a pattern or mindset here?!"
No, that was not an attempt to convince you that you were brainwashed or anything else. It was an attempt to get you to open your mind to the possiblity that the structure of "behavior modification" is dangerous in and of itself.Screening pre-school kids for anti-social behavior is about as useful as screening the Christian Coalition for sanctimonious behavior.
Sanho Tree
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On 2005-01-30 06:54:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:
No, that was not an attempt to convince you that you were brainwashed or anything else. It was an attempt to get you to open your mind to the possiblity that the structure of "behavior modification" is dangerous in and of itself.Screening pre-school kids for anti-social behavior is about as useful as screening the Christian Coalition for sanctimonious behavior.
Sanho Tree
"
Ginger...Crazy Mac at it again?? :lol: Truth does not have to be accepted on faith. Scientists do not hold hands every Sunday, singing, "Yes gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! Amen.
--Dan Barker, former evangelist and author
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life program sucked. i ran 3 times, got in a fight with jimmy (who is in and out of jail these days)jessie , dustin and some other smucks. that place was hell. but oddly enough i would really like to find yall who where in there from 90-92 its a consignment shop now, i would like to see it burn. :flame:
_________________
The great pleasure in life is doing
what people say you cannot do..walter baghot..if you dont want to slip dont go where its slippery..Mrs. Petermann.[ This Message was edited by: rez1990 on 2005-05-30 06:16 ]