Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Deborah on January 07, 2005, 02:06:00 PM
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A double feature. Parents can't snoop, and another 'troubled' teens does well. Geez! Will wonders cease?
Eavesdropping against law even for parent, court says
By: Christine Clarridge, staff reporter - December 10th, 2004
Seattle Times [www.seattletimes.com]
In a case of snooping parents vs. their children, a mother's eavesdropping on a telephone conversation between the woman's daughter and her daughter's boyfriend violated the children's privacy, the state Supreme Court ruled yesterday.
The high court unanimously reversed a 2000 robbery conviction against Oliver Christensen, 22, of Friday Harbor, in a case based in part on the testimony of the mother and what she heard in that telephone conversation.
"The court said it is against the law to intercept or snoop on anybody's private conversation and that even a child has privacy rights," said Christensen's attorney, Michael Tario. "And further, the law says it is a crime for someone to do that, and that whatever is heard cannot be mentioned in court."
The mother, Carmen Dixon, was incredulous.
"I just believe you have the right to know what your kids are doing and who they're doing it with," said Dixon, 47, of Friday Harbor. "We were having a hard time with her as a teenager. She was sort of out of control."
Monitoring her daughter's phone calls was "the way I could keep track of what she was up to," Dixon said.
San Juan County Prosecuting Attorney Randall Gaylord said the court's position weakens the ability of parents to monitor their children's actions.
"I tell parents that they need to be involved in their children's lives, and I'm concerned that this will mean parents can't always do the right thing," Gaylord said. "I'm concerned that a 14-year-old's right to privacy now trumps the parent's right to be a parent."
Because Christensen has already served the nine-month jail term to which he was sentenced, Gaylord said his office has not decided whether to seek a new trial.
According to court documents, Christensen telephoned his girlfriend, Lacey Dixon, then 14, and talked about being a suspect in a purse snatching in October 2000.
To take the call, the girl went to her room and shut the door.
Her mother activated a speakerphone, listened to the conversation and took notes, according to court documents. Dixon said yesterday she overheard her daughter question Christensen about his involvement in the purse snatching. Though Christensen didn't admit to the crime, he told Dixon's daughter "they'll never find it" because he hid it "across a ditch in some stick bushes," Dixon said.
"I'm shocked and I'm disappointed," Dixon said of the court's ruling, "because my testimony is what convicted" Christensen.
Douglas Klunder, who filed a friend-of-the-court brief on behalf of the American Civil Liberties Union, said the opinion reinforces the state's reputation as a strong guardian of personal privacy.
Klunder said the primary issue before the high court was whether the use of an extension or speaker phone was considered eavesdropping. A secondary issue was whether there was an exception in the case of parents and their children.
Attorneys for the state argued that minors should have a reduced expectation of privacy because parents have an absolute right to monitor phone calls coming into the family home. The attorneys cited provisions in federal wiretap law which are less restrictive than Washington's law and allow parents to tape and listen to their children's conversations.
"The Washington act, with its all-party consent requirement, contains no such parental exception and no Washington court has ever implied such an exception. We decline to do so now," wrote Justice Tom Chambers in the court's opinion.
Tario said his client is now a crab fisherman in Alaska.
Carmen Dixon's daughter, now 18, graduated from high school and is attending a massage-therapy school in Everett, her mother said. Their relationship now "is great," Dixon said.
Seattle Times
http://www.oblivion.net/news/display.php?articleID=929 (http://www.oblivion.net/news/display.php?articleID=929)
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That's incredibly irresponsible of any parent! Sick, I tell ya, just sick and twisted. Bad parent, bad, bad, bad for listening to their child's conversations. What's this world coming to? :flame:
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Being involved in your kid's life is one thing. snooping for evidence to put their friends in prison is something entirely different.
I'll admit that, at times, I have picked up the office phone to find out what my daughter was up to. More often than not, I've lived to regret it, though sometimes it was just good clean fun. At one time, we had a setup where we could record and play back little sound bites. We had one of her friends saying "that fuckin bitch!" which would throw a little chaos into almost any conversation (and, btw, let them know we were fuckin w/ them, which was part of the point). We had another taken off a website that said "Estoy en me casa estrangulado el poyo"(sp?), which was good for any time someone asked a male caller "What'chya doin?"
But that was just for our own amusement and a little good natured ribbing. The law in Florida is that anyone can record anything they hear or see either from their own private property or from a public place. But it's not admisible in court. I think that's an especially good idea where juveniles are concerned because they have a tendency to brag about doing or planning things that they have no real intention to do. And we would never dream of violating the trust that our kids have in us by turning their private (within the family) conversations into state's evidence.
Emotions rule the world; Is it any wonder that it's so mucked up?!
Bill Warbis
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He is a criminal and of age, he should go to jail!! Good parenting
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I think it is disgusting that some parents have so little respect for their children...perhaps that is why so many teens have no respect for parents. Listening to private conversations, snooping through personal belongings and barging through closed doors unannounced are completely disrespectful behaviors. It's no wonder some kids are so suspicious of adults.
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Ok so the next time you over hear your kid talking about somking crack and knocking off a liquor store on the phone with his homey, ignore it its non of your buisness. No wonder kids have no respect for their parents most of them know they can get away with it
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If a child is hanging around with crack heads who rob stores, listening in on their phone conversations and otherwise snooping around won't fix the problem. The entire family needs serious help from a qualified professional. Kids normally do not get that screwed up without help from their parents.
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On 2005-01-10 10:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If a child is hanging around with crack heads who rob stores, listening in on their phone conversations and otherwise snooping around won't fix the problem. The entire family needs serious help from a qualified professional. Kids normally do not get that screwed up without help from their parents. "
What fucking world are you living in?
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Thankfully not the same miserable, hateful, negative world you are in.
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If a parent suspects that thier child is involved with drugs and other illegal activities, it is thier right and obligation as a parent to look out for thier child and snoop as much as they need to to help thier child.If not then yes it is a horrible thing for a parent to do. But in this case it seems the young girl was involved with an adult who is not only too old, but into criminal activities. But sure don't snoop let the girl go and doo what ever they want, they'll grow out of it. Or they could get pregnant, go to jail or even die. But by all means don;t snoop. Get real people. You bone heads keep putting your foot in your mouths and make all of us others here see that you are all a little too gung ho. Lets just get rid of all parents. Kids are fine. The one that cares
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OWC - why do you always end up repeating program dogma?
"they could get pregnant, go to jail or even die"
COME ON. WHY DO YOU REPEAT THAT? WHY DOES EVERYONE REPEAT THAT?
There is a difference between looking out for them, and being control freak (especially the kind that hires goons like you).
So speaking of putting a foot in your mouth, you just showed your ass, again!
You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence.
--Charles Austin Beard
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It has nothing to do with the program, it is a reality. So just stop with this program crap. I say it from experience from working with youths for 18 years and also my experiences as a youth. I saw allot of kids OD at my high school.Also After. some were friends some were not, but seeing is believing. That's where I get it from young one. The one that cares
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Once upon a time, heroin, codine, morphene and cocaine preparations could be bought by anyone from the corner apothacary (drug store) or by mail from the Sears catalog. No prescription required, even children were not prohibited by law from making these purchases. The drugs delivered were pure, cheap (Bayer sold heroin for the same price per pill as aspirin) and of known potentcy.
Overdoses were so rare that even Harry Anslinger didn't try to use that as a scare tactic to pass the Harrison Act.
If you sincerely want to reduce the incidence of overdose in America, then you should get behind Law Enforcement Against Prohibition's effort to return to a policy of regulation instead of attempted prohibition. http://leap.cc/ (http://leap.cc/)
But I suspect that's just a pretense to cover your real need for domination. :razz: I turned to speak to God, About the world's despair; But to make bad matters worse, I found God wasn't there.
--Robert Frost, American poet
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Drugs are now more powerful and more available than when i was young and then there was no oxy cotton or extasy. I think there are about 10 kids that OD'd from my public High School class.
Seems when i'm right you change the subject.
The One that cares
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Do you even bother to read any of these sites that people try to send you to? It sure doesn't seem so. Why don't you give that a try and then maybe you'll have something intelligent to bring to the table.
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I have looked at all the stupid crap you throw at us on this site, bottom line is i have allot more experience 1st hand with kids than that of some of these people writing your aticles. which i could say you are being brainwashed by but i won't. Again you always change the subject when it seems like you have no reply for something.
This mom had every right and again an obligation as a parent to find out about her daughter and this criminal.The one that cares
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Really??? YOU have more experience than the National Mental Health Association???
http://www.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm (http://www.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm)
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On 2005-01-11 06:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have looked at all the stupid crap you throw at us on this site, bottom line is i have allot more experience 1st hand with kids than that of some of these people writing your aticles. which i could say you are being brainwashed by but i won't. Again you always change the subject when it seems like you have no reply for something.
This mom had every right and again an obligation as a parent to find out about her daughter and this criminal.The one that cares"
Maybe she did. The fact is that the law in that particular state was drafted with wording that made it do something the legislature didn't intend. It happens.
That's why very often when you want a new law passed, the legislators are very leery unless you can show them another state with some good case law of how the language of the law is getting interpreted by the courts. If you can show them another state with the same law and the courts are doing with it what the legislature wants them to do, then a lot of times your own legislature will say, "Okay." and just clone the same language as the other state's law.
The courts didn't say anything one way or another about what was *right* in this case. That's not their job. They just said what that particular state's law is.
And the legislature will probably be changing the law.
I don't know whether I would have turned the boyfriend in or not. It would have depended a lot on the rest of the situation and how dangerous to my kid and the people around him I thought he was.
If it was a stupid impulsive thing and he was getting some kind of help for poor impulse control, I'd probably have blown it off--with misgivings. If it was a stupid teenage immaturity thing, I probably would have had a long talk with my daughter about it---and possibly said something to him, too, to let him know how very close he came to being busted. If I thought he was an active and serious danger to others, I'd have turned him in.
Not that I can imagine listening in on a phone conversation like that. It's just not my style.
I have more straightforward ways of knowing how my daughter is doing.
Anyway, this is not a big huge court precedent---this is a tempest in a teapot over the exact wording of a law. Right or wrong, the legislature of that state is probably just going to reword the law to make parental eavesdropping legal.
Timoclea
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Read what i say, I said some of the people writing the articles.I did not say all.You tell me i don't read what you say, yet again and agian you people miss what i say, or just hear what you want to. The one that cares
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On 2005-01-11 06:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have looked at all the stupid crap you throw at us on this site, bottom line is i have allot more experience 1st hand with kids than that of some of these people writing your aticles. ...The one that cares"
By the time you even lay eyes on these kids, they're already under coercion. And you're the primary agent of coercion. You don't know shit!The world is so exquisite, with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's no good evidence. Far better, it seems to me, to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.
--Carl Sagan
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On 2005-01-10 15:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Drugs are now more powerful and more available than when i was young and then there was no oxy cotton or extasy. I think there are about 10 kids that OD'd from my public High School class.
Seems when i'm right you change the subject.
The One that cares"
I haven't changed the subject. In fact, you're making my point. After 90 years of criminal prohibition, drugs are more potent (often of unknown potency, which is usually the cause of overdose) and far more available to kids than before.
In addition, because they are illegal, the retail markup can be up to 1,700 percent (yes, that's right, 1700% or 170,000 times the cost of production). And all of this profit goes untaxed directly to criminal organizations. They don't card their customers. They try to recruit children as distributors for reasons of legal liability set up by this same crazy system of alleged drug control.
As it concerns this conversation, the prohibition policy and mindset are not working and are causing a whole raft of problems of their own. Take away the promise of illegal profits and the often irresistable taboo and you drastically reduce the draw to young people.
Or you can go on locking them up and trying to beat it out of them and keep believing you're doing something worthwhile. But you'll have to quit hanging around w/ people who are not as completely credulous as you seem to be. The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic.
--Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist
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On 2005-01-11 10:58:00, Antigen wrote:
"In addition, because they are illegal, the retail markup can be up to 1,700 percent (yes, that's right, 1700% or 170,000 times the cost of production)."
Er, 1700% is 17 times.
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I just logged on to this site today, but I have to say, this is one thing I sort of agree with the one who cares guy, even though I don't like the wwasps program. I lived with parents who sensored everything they wanted to at THEIR house. I didn't like it much, but it was their right. I am all for giving my kids privacy, but when the trust has been broken, I will check out their actions even closer. If that means reading a not, instant message or listening in on a phone call, I will. I am the parent. I get to make that call. If you don't agree, don't look or listen. Everyone has the right as the adult parent, home-owner, to make this decision.
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Thank you for not being blinded by the others.
I agree. A parent that knows all of the childs friends and thier parents and has a family dinner every night and has structure for that child to follow will more likely not have problems. I know that there are many single family houses and it is hard to have this type of structure, but the parent has to try or risk losing thier child to bad influences. I'm not saying every circumstance, let me clarify that now, but the parent has a much better chance for thier child to make the right decisions.Bottom line is the parents need to be very onvolved in thier childs life, that means supporting them in all thier endevours, such as sports, learning music, dance, or anything else. I played allot of sports and i can count on one hand the games my mom came to and i played 100's from 11-17.
I know it would have made a difference for me and studies have shown what i am saying. I'm not getting you the info, if you want it, do your own searches. The one that cares
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On 2005-01-12 04:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thank you for not being blinded by the others.
I agree. A parent that knows all of the childs friends and thier parents and has a family dinner every night and has structure for that child to follow will more likely not have problems. I know that there are many single family houses and it is hard to have this type of structure, but the parent has to try or risk losing thier child to bad influences. I'm not saying every circumstance, let me clarify that now, but the parent has a much better chance for thier child to make the right decisions.Bottom line is the parents need to be very onvolved in thier childs life, that means supporting them in all thier endevours, such as sports, learning music, dance, or anything else. I played allot of sports and i can count on one hand the games my mom came to and i played 100's from 11-17.
I know it would have made a difference for me and studies have shown what i am saying. I'm not getting you the info, if you want it, do your own searches. The one that cares"
You kidnap children. Your opinion in matters such as this is bound to be twisted by your criminal activities and your delusions about "helping" kids by kidnapping them.
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Look, I don't really have a problem with parents listening to kids conversations on the phone if they're truly worried about something. I've done it, read notes that I found too. I think there's a MUCH bigger issue to be concerned about though. WWASP and the damn teen "help" industry.
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I am the evil one, sure what ever you say.But until the law tells me i'm breaking it. Then it is just your one sided mind that thinks so. You will not make me mad by calling me a kidnapper, simply because what i do is intervention and i have helped 100's of kids get help. This thread is now dead as you are now changing the subject back to wwasp, which had nothing to do with this thread. Me and you will never agree and that's ok.Because you are the ones who have brainwashed yourselves and have no open mind to see that there are allot of good coming out of allot of these schools. I have seen it and we also have Perigaud and others on this board who have seen it also. But we are all brainwashed. I've never been to a seminar by the way, but one kid that i transfered said that the seminars were his favorite part of the program and really helped him, even though he was just on his way to another program to start over.Are there any schools out there that you people think are good, or are they all evil gulags as you say.
If there are yopu should take time to get these parents to send kids to those that you approve of instead of just saying don;t send your kid away they will be tourtured and brainwashed.
But as i can see it does not matter if a kid needs and actulally gets help from one of these schools. You would think you all got money from kids not going to these schools. Sometimes a parent does not have a choice after trying all elese. You don't even respond at all to my last post which had nothing to do with this.
You are very hateful and resentful.The one that cares
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I agree, this thread is dead. We've debated it out. I even said that I agreed with listening in on a conversation if you're really concerned. Now, can we get back to more important issues? Like the abuse that continues to go on at WWASPs?
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I'm back to my same original reasons for signing onto this board. What abuse? What kind? When? Where? I believe it has happened. I just would like to hear some concrete details. I want to know if it was reported to authorites. Were people punished? I sincerely want to know. This affects me deeply. I have a child at a wwasp school. I have read and heard so many conflicting stories. I want the truth. Please.
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The truth is here. You do have to wade through some b/s posts (there are a lot of us here who really were damaged by these places and it comes out in some very angry, childish ways sometimes...apologies in advance). WWASP seems to think they have THE answer for every child. No one does. Look at what the National Mental Health Association says about 'confrontational therapy'.
http://www.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm (http://www.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm)
Experts agree that a confrontational approach is not appropriate. Most correctional and military experts agree that a confrontational model, employing tactics of intimidation and humiliation, is counterproductive for most youth in the juvenile justice system. The use of this kind of model has led to disturbing incidents of abuse. For youth of color (who represent the vast majority of the juveniles sentenced to boot camps)-as well as for youth with emotional, behavioral, or learning problems-degrading tactics may be particularly inappropriate and potentially damaging. The bullying style and aggressive interactions that characterize the boot camp environment fail to model the pro-social behavior and development of empathy that these youth really need to learn.
Positive changes demonstrated while in the program may not last when a youth returns to his community. Many adult and juvenile offenders sentenced to boot camps report that the program is helpful to them and they feel more positive about their futures. It is unclear, however, whether these attitudinal changes persist after youth leave the boot camp, or whether they are related to actual changes in behavior once a youth returns to his community. Without significant therapeutic intervention while in the program, as well as specialized aftercare following release, boot camp programs have been consistently unsuccessful in "rehabilitating" juvenile or adult offenders.
I can tell you that the program I was in (20+ years ago) was unbeliebably similar to the WWASP programs now. It changed me for life and not in a good way. There were many physical abuses that went on, but I was never physically abused. I SAW a lot of it, but the psychological damage that was done was far worse for me. The humiliation of 'breaking the image' still effects me, even after all these years.
The reason why there is no dissention allowed is because if people really, honestly begin to think for themselves they'll get the same nagging feeling that you're getting right now. Something is not right. If they're allowed to follow up on those feelings with questions, the program doesn't have the control it needs over it's incarcerees (is that even a word??). I was WAY to scared to tell my parents what really went on in there. It wasn't until probably at least 10 years after I got out that I began to tell them. The confrontation, screaming in your face, telling you that you absolutel WON'T make it without the beloved program (the whole 'deadinsaneorinjail' mantra, every program says it)...how can this possibly be good for anyone, let alone kids who admittedly already have some problems. I wholeheartedly agree with Timoclea's post about taking your child for a second opinion. EXCELLENT suggestion. A second opinion is never a bad idea anyway and you might just see what WWASP is all about by their reaction to you wanting another opinion.
Read this too...
http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html (http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html)
I'm not saying it's an actual cult, but if not it at least runs very, very similar.
Good luck with your daughter. I have two teenagers myself and have gone through hell and back with one of them. I needed help with her, but I wasn't about to let WWASP get ahold of her. I sincerely hope you do sort through these threads, I realize it's a bit difficult but well, very well worth it. Again, good luck. I know how scary raising a teen is. Just remember that your fear is what they use to hook you and then keep you. When parents are scared for the lives of their kids and someone comes along promising to have the answer it becomes easier for them to keep the parents in line, so to speak.
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On 2005-01-12 08:27:00, chi3 wrote:
"I'm back to my same original reasons for signing onto this board. What abuse? What kind? When? Where? I believe it has happened. I just would like to hear some concrete details. I want to know if it was reported to authorites. Were people punished? I sincerely want to know. This affects me deeply. I have a child at a wwasp school. I have read and heard so many conflicting stories. I want the truth. Please."
Most of the various kinds of abuse or neglect I've seen alleged at WWASPS schools falls into the following categories:
Depriving children of toiletries necessary for good hygiene.
Depriving children of access to bathroom facilities until they have to foul themselves.
Keeping children out in the sun long enough to deliberately cause severe sunburn.
Sleep deprivation.
Excessive isolation in forced stress positions in small, bare rooms that were deliberately too cold or too hot, under constant observation.
Abuse of physical or chemical restraints as a punishment instead of just when the child was behaving dangerously to self or others.
Neglecting to get the child needed medical or dental care.
Providing unclean water so that children became sick with E. coli bugs.
Spoiled food with inadequate nutrition or calories so that kids who couldn't afford to lose the weight lost lots of weight and muscle. Food with excess *empty* calories and inadequate nutrition so the kids had to eat too much just to get the nutrients and got fat--then emotional abuse about being fat.
Therapy sessions that consisted of people yelling and screaming at the kid.
Punishment for failure to confess deep dark secrets.
Arbitrary punishments for things the kids either didn't do or that weren't against the rules. Arbitrary and trivial rules---like not being able to talk to other children at all--even outside of class, at meals, etc.
Abuse of patient confidentiality--confessions of flaws used to break down and demean the child.
Depriving the child of clean clothes appropriate to the weather conditions. (In some cases, parents are charged for a clothing allowance and the kid is given only dirty secondhand sweats to wear.)
Telling the child her parents don't love her and don't want her anymore and that that's why she's there.
Depriving the child of schooling whenever the child is arbitrarily dropped down levels or placed on other restrictions.
Parents are told that all complaints of the child are "manipulation" and that all the children lie, and the child is punished for any criticism of the facility during monitored communication (all communication is monitored) for "manipulation."
It's harder in your case since your kid actually does lie a lot---you can't know what to believe and what not to.
I *think* Carolina Springs in particular has had negative dealings with the local Child Protective Services. If it were *me* and *my kid*, I would call the local child protective services and *ask* them what their history with Carolina Springs was. I would *also* call the Better Business Bureau and ask *them* about any complaints against Carolina Springs.
I'd visit periodically, *insist* on seeing my kid, and take particular note of any bruises or any sudden weight loss or weight gain. Yeah, it's *really* going to compromise your child's therapy to get a hug, get stepped on a scale in front of you, and show up in shorts and a T-shirt so you can look for bruises or restraint marks. NOT.
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Just as an aside, I had a *terrific* 8th grade English teacher. She was a very smart, wise, dedicated lady. One of the very wise things she had posted on her wall was, "If someone demands blind obedience, you'd be a fool not to peek."
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I would *at least* show up randomly, *insist* on seeing your daughter and physical copies of her school work in her own handwriting, hug her, look her over for bruises, stick her on the scale, and insist on walking through the back of the cafeteria and seeing what food is being prepared for the children.
I would also insist that they let you take her for a scheduled dental checkup with a local dentist every six months, regardless of what "level" or restriction she may be on. With the possible/probable deprivation of proper nutrition, toiletries, time and privacy for hygiene, and the *definite* stress of being away from home, your daughter really *needs* those regularly scheduled dental visits.
They may tell you the dental visit has to be scheduled during the home visits, and if you can, okay. But if they try to tell you she can't go for the home visit because she's on restriction, or if the only time you can get a dental appointment is some other time, just like I wouldn't take no for an answer about a second opinion, I wouldn't take no for an answer about a trip to the dentist for the six-monthly checkup, or for any follow-up visits for fillings, etc.
TimocleaAll religion is dumb. It's one big story they're feeding you so you'll behave on Earth. If there is a god, then he's a prick.
--Howard Stern, American radio personality
[ This Message was edited by: Timoclea on 2005-01-12 09:20 ]
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Look, I'm not going to be disingenuous.
I think WWASPS is a bad racket and wouldn't be caught dead putting my own special needs kid (I'm mom to a 9 year old with bipolar) in one of their facilities.
*Personally* I think you should be on the next plane to pull your kid out.
But realistically, you don't know me from adam and I'm trying to give you good, reasonable, generic advice.
If I'm wrong about WWASPS, or maybe even if I'm not, they'll cooperate with your precautions for your daughter's medical welfare and she'll at least be physically okay and you'll know it.
If I'm *right* about WWASPS, I suspect that they aren't going to be at all happy about your wanting to see her off their schedule to check on her welfare, or your personally ensuring she gets necessary and appropriate medical care promptly.
But really now, if they try to tell you reasonable, necessary, appropriate, prompt medical care and random physical welfare checks are going to compromise your daughter's treatment---doesn't that set your bullshit detector off full blast?
I don't know if they will or not, but I would say that those are *reasonable* precautions for any parent to take.
TimocleaI'm glad some people have that faith. I don't have that faith. If there is a God, a caring God, then we have to figure he's done an extraordinary job of making a very cruel world.
--Dave Matthews, South African rock musician
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OWC,
Could any of these programs 'work their magic' if the kids had the basic rights of uncensored letters and unmonitored phone calls? Contact with siblings and grands? If they had access to a public phone and the phone numbers to report abuse to, posted over the phone?
Think long and hard about why this is the standard MO of all programs.
And think about the lame excuse they give for this austere policy, 'to prevent the teen from manipulating their parent'.
This is utter BS. Any good therapist would work with parent and child, drawing attention to each when they thought either was 'manipulating'. There is absolutely NO reason for this industry-wide policy, except to lower attrition, separate and condition parent and child to their roles. Instill a new vocabulary and way of perceiving.
Reports of negative conditions and circumstances at the facility should not be screened out or punished. That ALONE is a big red flag, and speaks loudly to those who will listen.
What might happen if a parent told the program that they were not concerned about being 'manipulated' and refused to have their phone calls monitored or mail censored? Refused to allow their child to be punished for reporting anything negative. Refused to limit their contact with their child to 10 minutes per week?
I've read a few accounts and what happened was that the parent was asked to withdraw their child. And in two cases I'm aware of the program attempted to 'manipulate' the parents out of a refund on pre-paid tuition. Teen wasn't 'terminated' but 'withdrawn'. Just a little trick parents should be aware of. They manipulate parents more than their teens ever did.
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We have read from other students and parents that letteres and phone calls are not censored.
By the way when i was at desisto we had a phone in our dorm to use anytime. We also could write letters as much as possible.I don't see anything wrong with having to earn the write to call your parents. They can write once a week from the beginning. They gave us too much freedom at desisto and it did not work for many of us. You make it seem so different than it is. Also if the parent wants they can have a once a week conversation with thier child and a therapist. I know 1st hand a child i brought that this was done with. It is not near as bad as you say, at least not at the wwasp schools i have been to.
The one that cares
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Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.
The point is, for this parent, how does she make sure that *her* kid is okay?
And how she makes sure her kid is okay is she makes sure she maintains contact and periodically goes to the school and makes physical checks on her child's welfare, checks obvious *physical* signs of wellbeing like marks and weight and schoolwork, and ensures that her child has regular, appropriate, routine medical and dental care.
And gets a qualified second opinion to make sure that if her kid has a psychiatric diagnosis, that it's an accurate one.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the other critics on Fornits are wrong. It wouldn't be the first time I've ever been wrong in my life.
But when it's *your kid* that's at stake, a responsible parent exercises *reasonable* oversight to check and make sure.
TimocleaArdent advocates of prohibition were obsessed by a zeal that bordered on fanaticism. They supported politicians who voted to outlaw liquor, no matter how much of it they privately consumed, and spurned politicians who voted against prohibition, no matter how sober they were personally.
Sen. Sam Ervin, Preserving The Constitution
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On 2005-01-12 08:27:00, chi3 wrote:
"I'm back to my same original reasons for signing onto this board. What abuse? What kind? When? Where? I believe it has happened. I just would like to hear some concrete details. I want to know if it was reported to authorites. Were people punished? I sincerely want to know. This affects me deeply. I have a child at a wwasp school. I have read and heard so many conflicting stories. I want the truth. Please."
From my perspective, take your experience in the seminar and put it into your daughter's context. Granted, you don't completely understand how she thinks (I read and answered your other post). But just put yourself in her shoes. What if the seminar were not just a few days? What if it were an indeterminate period of time? Could be years. What if you really, really couldn't leave. If, when you stepped out the door, you were a second class citizen as teenagers are. No property, no bank card, no ID, no credibility (oh, and btw, some miles of badlands populated by folk who can make a quick buck by capturing you and turning you in) You just can't get away from these people, even to take a breather. And, if you did manage it, you'd be a fugative w/o any rights and no one would believe you.
That's where your daughter is. Is that better or worse than where she put herself before the Program? Cause, based on what I've read, if she wants to get by, she's required to pretend, convincingly, that this is much, much better!
Now, I was never in a WWASP program. I can't swear to which rules and policies are reliable accounts and which are less than accurate. I can identify w/ how these kids describe the effects and how the proponants defend it. Uniformly, they make an appeal to faith w/o any understanding of what the process is or how it works or what the overall agenda really is.
The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force.
--Thomas Jefferson
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At the risk of being accused of being too annalytical and intellectual and into my head, let me pick this apart.
On 2005-01-12 04:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thank you for not being blinded by the others.
I agree. A parent that knows all of the childs friends and thier parents and has a family dinner every night and has structure for that child to follow will more likely not have problems.
Close, but no cigar! Into every life some rain must fall. And the Spring of life always seems to be an especially soggy stretch. I've seen some kids come up just fine w/ their parents being far too busy and preoccupied to pay much attention to what their kids were up to (provided the kid more-or-less kept from getting busted at anything major) And I've seen others who, despite their parents dedicating themselves entirely to micromanaging every aspect of their kids' lives turn out... well, like half of us posters to these forums.
If you're going to get involved in a hands-on way in your kids' private business, be prepared to get your hands dirty.
I think a lot of people get into trouble and become prime targets for the troubled parent industry when they snoop just a little too much. You get a glimpse of something and get frightened and over-react when, had you not known, the kid would have come to the same conclusion on their own w/o your strongarming them.
Been there, as I've said. Yes, I'm glad I found out which kids I wouldn't want using my phone. But I also realized that I could have figured it out based on more obvious evidence w/o ever violating my daughter's autonomy. Big mistake on my part! Very little return.
The weavers of linen and hempen cloth, ... may exercise their trades without paying any fine.
-- Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations (chapter X, part II) notes:
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To the lady with the kid in the wwasps school...
Hello? Earth to mama!
If you are worried about your kid PULL THEM OUT. If WWASPS tries to make up shit about how they hae to keep them confined and hidden from you, then maybe you SHOULD take that as suspicion.
Its "treatment", not jail, right? You can cancel it whenever the hell you want!
Go there and DEMAND to see the kid or pull them out and find out for yourself. Sheesh. You're an american, this is america, theres no excuse for such secrecy about YOUR CHILD.
If that is YOUR KID then YOUR responsibilty is to them. GO FIND OUT YOURSELF.
And if you do, please come back here and tell us about it. It would help everyone. It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
-- Aristotle
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I think that parents should be able to "snoop" - especially if they suspect their child is involved in dangerous activities - such as drug abuse. Sometimes it's difficult to find out what's really going on.
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why cant they snoop on the programs?
May your days be joyously challenging and your words artfully true.
--Ginger Warbis
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Why can't you grow up. Your 20 year old views of someone who has never been to a wwasp program and only have opinions based on rumors are of no use to parents and the parents here need to know that you are no authority and you are only 20, which does mean allot. You have not grown up yet. The one that cares
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On 2005-01-13 04:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why can't you grow up. Your 20 year old views of someone who has never been to a wwasp program and only have opinions based on rumors are of no use to parents and the parents here need to know that you are no authority and you are only 20, which does mean allot. You have not grown up yet. The one that cares"
And you kidnap children and try your best to hang on to your crazy delusions, so you could justify your acts of violence against CHILDREN and your criminal activities.
You're the one who needs to grow up. You're obviously still not over your own behavior modification experience.
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98 percent of the time i do not use cuffs and have never done anything violent to a child. Yhis is waht i mean about there being so many kids on this board. This is a typical tactic used by kids and immature people, they try to say the most hateful thing to get at someones insides and try tp push the person's buttons. You can not piss me off that bad that i will lose composure. I take care of each child on each intervention as if they were my own. Kidnapping is illegal, Intervention is not.
Get your facts straight, it is only your opinion and the law is on my side. I was not in a BM school it was a theraputic one and if you have read anything i wrote, you would see that i spent my 8 months there had allot of freedoms and was not a bad place. Desisto did change from what i have heard on our allumni web site. But i did not go through a BM school.I have no delusions, you don't know me at all and you never will, because you are very simple minded with blinders on. The one who cares
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OK, OWC - before I go any farther - PLEASE, for gods sake, learn some spelling grammar and syntax. Its hard to read what you say.
Now, finally, Lets spell a few things out.
Currently there is NO distinction between Behavior mod and 'therapeutic' boarding schools. "Behavior modification" is just a polite way of saying you're brainwashing or punishing someone into obedience. Dont like it? Tough.
Now, you say intervention is legal, kidnapping is not. Wheres your proof of that?
Legally taking someone into custody involves a trained LEO and due process. If its just detainment they have to let them go if they dont have a reason. Get that?
These "interventions" Do not have due process. AT ALL. You're just a hired goon, nothing more. You dont know or see shit because a kid in fear of a program would never tell you anything.
If we are right, and they had something bad to say, did you just magically forget how they claim they're punished for trying to tell people about it?
Furthermore, about the due process, there is no real evaluation of the necessity of them in a program. There is no oversight to make sure the program offers any therapy at all, especialy the kind necessary for a lot of them with real problems.
If they had due process a lot of them would be sent home, dont you get that? There is simply NO NEED to abduct and hold kids captive for 'treatment' except the extreme cases.
There are still no answers for the points I've raised, "OWC".Neither in my private life nor in my writings, have I ever made a secret of being an out-and-out unbeliever.
--Sigmund Freud, Austrian-born psychologist
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You have no points. You are just jumping on the bandwagon here. Why, only you know? I have dealt with police and TSA and Airport police all over the country, they seem not to have a problem with what i do. If i don't spell right get over it, you seem to understand. There is nothing illegal with what i do otherwise i would have been arrested. I also do pick up kids from courts, jails and hospitals. Some are even court ordered. So just drop the illegal stuff. You can call me a kidnapper all you want, but i am not and the law says so.So get over yourself. You and this board seem to be the brainwashed and very much cult like to me. The one who cares
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Yes, I have several points, you just dont want to address them.
No, I dont know, THATS THE POINT, YOU IDIOT.
THE POINT IS WE *DONT* KNOW BECAUSE OF THE INCREDIBLE SECRECY OF THESE STUPID PROGRAMS AND THAST WHY WE NEED TO INVESTIGATE TO FIND OUT FOR SURE, AND IF THERE IS A PROBLEM, FIX IT - IF NOT, REGULATE TO PREVENT IT!
Make sense yet? I sure hope so.
Now, the local cops are probably just not going to give a fuck and honestly dont really know shit about the industry or whats going on. Saying you got past airport security is hardly an accomplishment these days.
Now, if its picked up from a jail or hospital, or court ordered, then yes, theres a court order.
Now, let me put this on its own paragraph so you can try to understand this: Just because some judge orders it, doesnt mean the kid needs it. Ok?
There is currently no due process. As I said before. One of my points that dont exist, right?
A judge wanting to punish a kid or put him in 'treatment' instead of incarceration doesnt really know about the kid, or the treatment center, and doesnt have to, because a judge can do whatever the fuck he wants. But, if hes on your side, you're not gonna question it.
My point is, yet again, a lot of the time, if not MOST of the time, there is no real evaluation to see if the kid NEEDS treatment at all, and if so, if they NEED to be locked up for the said treatment, and what kind, to get it.
As it is, they'll take any kid, because they want MONEY. You'll take any kid the parent wants to be taken, because you always believe all kids need it, and you want YOUR money, too.
There is no impartial evaluation. Theres simply product-pushing to get the child sent in, so they get their damn money.
I realize now youre going to ignore everything I Say, but at least others might read what I have to say.
The one who THINKS.Revelation indeed had no weight with me.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
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well, in all of that I will try to tell you what I do know to be fact. I am not a ditz. I have a child who was involved with serious reckless behavior. I have listened in on the phone, etc., and make no apologies for that. The stuff I heard was bad. I don't think we overreacted by getting her away from that. She was planning another runaway, had done it before. The wwasp thing was sold to us when we were desperate. Yes, I believe they play upon parents fears. I also know they say they do not take any childre with drug, alcohol abuse problems of mental issues. This is a lie. Most of the kids there with my daughter have one or all of these problems. We were told it was a strict boarding school that would keep her safe and from running away. That was what we needed. Well, they have accomplished the not running away, and I have been there unscheduled. I went along with not seeing my child against my better jusgement, but was still not aware of the things I am now. She has not been denied medical care. She has been taken and I was asked if I wanted her to see anyone else. She has gained weight, but I am not sure if it is empty calories. I know they don't get much exercise, so that can cause it, too. I have not heard of any physical abuse coming out of there. Has anyone else? At any time? Has anyone ever been there at that particular place or had a child there? I really would listen to anything they had to say. Once again, thank you to everyone who responds.
oh, BTW, they do have adequate hygiene items, clean clothes, etc. My daughter has said she often over eats there, and I have seen pictures of the tables w/food on the holidays. Don't know what day-to-day is like.
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Another thought, if I take her out of there, where do I go next??? I have no idea who I would trust, now. Are there some good places out there that don't use this beh. mod. program?
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Chi,
I am a graduate of CCM. If you'd like to talk I'm around. I have no problems telling you both the positive and the negative. Truth is what I offer. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-14 02:24 ]
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As for the gaining weight. Well some kids come from detox and are off the drugs but are mal nourished. The food is fatty and made to help them gain weight. The exercise is not as extensive as it should be.
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On 2005-01-14 02:03:00, chi3 wrote:
"Another thought, if I take her out of there, where do I go next??? I have no idea who I would trust, now. Are there some good places out there that don't use this beh. mod. program?"
Chi3, get your kid out of there, and get her to a psychologist/psychiatrist for a complete evaluation that may help pinpoint the problem, and may give you some pointers about where to go from there.
Take her to see a REAL professional, who will help point you to good, beneficial programs.
But first, get her out of there. And, please, do it as soon as possible. She'll thank you later, and you'll thank yourself for not keeping her in an abusive treatment program.
I'm not sure if you've seen this yet, but there's some specific info about CSA here:
http://www.isaccorp.org/documentsam.html#csa (http://www.isaccorp.org/documentsam.html#csa)
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yes, i have read that, but thank you. really tho what does any of it say other than Narvin Lichfield is an idiot??? I mean I called dept. of children services. they couldn't tell me anything.said that no claims of abuse, etc., had been substantiated.to me that doesn't mean they aren't true, but i wish i could find one piece of info about any abuse that took place. i would be happy to have some previous csa students/parents take on this. anything. i am not just going to take my chld out of there and leave it at that if there is some bad things going on. i want all the kids safe. i have some friends w/ kids there,too. they don't want to believe anything could be bad. they would tho if they had more to go on, i think. I couldn't find out, does anyone know if they have allowed Narvin L. back on csa property? he needs to be in jail.
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CHI,
Good luck. If you really think that it's the best decision to take her out good luck. By the way I'm not saying your decision is a good one nor a bad one. But don't give up on your daughter and the hopes she will be a good person (I'm sure she is she just has some figuring out to do). It sounds as though she has some pent up anger that needs to be released somehow. I aggree with the whole enrolling her in an activity that will allow her to release what she needs to. I also believe that whatever she is holding on to needs to be worked on. I feel for both you and her.
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thank you, perrigaud. i am trying to make the best decision on what i have to go on. this is not easy.
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It's not going to get easier (I'm talking about you getting her out).
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You are confusing being arrested and Intervention.It is sad but the parents are the judge and jury in these circumstances. The child does not get due process. when the child can not make valid decisions it is the parents right again just like snooping around. So you don't think kids get help at these places, well as i've said i have seen the change in many kids and you will have to just give up on the brianwahing stuff. Watch the manchurain candidate
that will show brainwahing. Again i will say if you think that seperating a child from the unhealty ways they are living and getting them clean and getting them to see that thier family should be the most important people in thier lives. Then we need more brainwashing if it can help a kid like perigaud see tha future is bright. So you are now calling all cops and tsa idiots and that they don't know the law. Well i had a situation where about 7 cop cars came while we were doing a public intervention from car to car. The kid started screaming and put up a struggle. After about 45 mins. of the police checking everything out and the supervisor then coming the child was told he had no choice and that it was the law that he came with us. This by the way was probbably my craziest intervention. So don't even try to say that cops don't know the law, it is thier job too. By the way the parents were present and the cops still checked everything very carefully. You show your how immature you are when you can not carry on a debate with out calling someone and idiot. Bottom lie is again you were never at one of theses schools, you are have no life so you found something that you can join in on feel like you are doing something. No one here knows you really and what the hell you do besides this.
I'm glad you found something to jump on the bandwagon for, But you are 20, focus on your life and maybe you will have one.The one who cares
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On 2005-01-14 05:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You are confusing being arrested and Intervention.It is sad but the parents are the judge and jury in these circumstances. The child does not get due process. when the child can not make valid decisions it is the parents right again just like snooping around. So you don't think kids get help at these places, well as i've said i have seen the change in many kids and you will have to just give up on the brianwahing stuff. Watch the manchurain candidate
that will show brainwahing. Again i will say if you think that seperating a child from the unhealty ways they are living and getting them clean and getting them to see that thier family should be the most important people in thier lives. Then we need more brainwashing if it can help a kid like perigaud see tha future is bright. So you are now calling all cops and tsa idiots and that they don't know the law. Well i had a situation where about 7 cop cars came while we were doing a public intervention from car to car. The kid started screaming and put up a struggle. After about 45 mins. of the police checking everything out and the supervisor then coming the child was told he had no choice and that it was the law that he came with us. This by the way was probbably my craziest intervention. So don't even try to say that cops don't know the law, it is thier job too. By the way the parents were present and the cops still checked everything very carefully. You show your how immature you are when you can not carry on a debate with out calling someone and idiot. Bottom lie is again you were never at one of theses schools, you are have no life so you found something that you can join in on feel like you are doing something. No one here knows you really and what the hell you do besides this.
I'm glad you found something to jump on the bandwagon for, But you are 20, focus on your life and maybe you will have one.The one who cares"
Why should anyone listen to what you have to sya? You kidnap children. You managed to convince yourself that you are some great hero by kidnapping dozens of children and transferring them to gulags, and now you try your best to sweep as many people as possible into that delusion with you.
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On 2005-01-14 03:57:00, chi3 wrote:
"yes, i have read that, but thank you. really tho what does any of it say other than Narvin Lichfield is an idiot??? I mean I called dept. of children services. they couldn't tell me anything.said that no claims of abuse, etc., had been substantiated.to me that doesn't mean they aren't true, but i wish i could find one piece of info about any abuse that took place. i would be happy to have some previous csa students/parents take on this. anything. i am not just going to take my chld out of there and leave it at that if there is some bad things going on. i want all the kids safe. i have some friends w/ kids there,too. they don't want to believe anything could be bad. they would tho if they had more to go on, i think. I couldn't find out, does anyone know if they have allowed Narvin L. back on csa property? he needs to be in jail."
I don't know about CSA, but I know that Narvin is still a very senior figure in WWASP, and that he owns the new facility, Pillars of Hope in Costa Rica (which is actually Dundee by a different name).
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I don't need anyone to beleive me, i am just sharing my opinion on the matter. Which i have every right to do. You call it kidnapping, myself and the law do not. So enjoy your opinion because that is all it is.The one who cares
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On 2005-01-14 06:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I don't need anyone to beleive me, i am just sharing my opinion on the matter. Which i have every right to do. You call it kidnapping, myself and the law do not. So enjoy your opinion because that is all it is.The one who cares"
Opinions are like...belly buttons. Everyone has one.
Not all residential care is bad. Sometimes residential care is necessary.
A second opinion from a board certified pediatric psychiatrist is *always* a good idea.
Picking a licensed facility with professional staff and an accredited school is pretty much always better than picking someplace with no checks and balances to ensure quality of care.
If some facility has a good thing going, fine. They can help present themselves well to potential consumers by pursuing licensing and accreditation. If they don't pursue it or have it, it's entirely reasonable for any parent to ask hard questions about why not.
Why do you have so much emotional investment in trying to persuade parents to buy a pig in a poke?
TimocleaArms in the hands of citizens [may] be used at individual discretion...in private self-defense...
-- John Adams, (1788)
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Chi - I think this bears repeating. Antigen wrote this:
From my perspective, take your experience in the seminar and put it into your daughter's context. Granted, you don't completely understand how she thinks (I read and answered your other post). But just put yourself in her shoes. What if the seminar were not just a few days? What if it were an indeterminate period of time? Could be years. What if you really, really couldn't leave. If, when you stepped out the door, you were a second class citizen as teenagers are. No property, no bank card, no ID, no credibility (oh, and btw, some miles of badlands populated by folk who can make a quick buck by capturing you and turning you in) You just can't get away from these people, even to take a breather. And, if you did manage it, you'd be a fugative w/o any rights and no one would believe you.
That's where your daughter is. Is that better or worse than where she put herself before the Program? Cause, based on what I've read, if she wants to get by, she's required to pretend, convincingly, that this is much, much better!
I truly wish you luck with your situation. I know how confusing and frightening it is to be raising teenagers now. I'm not saying that no one should ever be in a residential program, but I am saying that no one should ever be in a WWASP program. I don't know enough about your specific situation to give any advice other than if she already has some emotional problems WWASP is the LAST place you want her to be. The psychological damage that is done will be with her for life.
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Chi, try this interview:
http://www.worldtalkradio.com/archive.asp?aid=3102 (http://www.worldtalkradio.com/archive.asp?aid=3102)
One of the guests, Kelly, talks extensively about her experience at CSA.Theology: The effort to explain the unknowable in terms of the not worth knowing.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher
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On 2005-01-14 11:11:00, Antigen wrote:
"Chi, try this interview:
http://www.worldtalkradio.com/archive.asp?aid=3102 (http://www.worldtalkradio.com/archive.asp?aid=3102)
One of the guests, Kelly, talks extensively about her experience at CSA.Theology: The effort to explain the unknowable in terms of the not worth knowing.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher
"
Kelly talks about Cross Creek Manor, not Carolina Springs.
(CCM was the first WWASP program; all of the other facilities were modelled after it.)
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Kelly talks about Cross Creek Manor, not Carolina Springs.
Makes no difference. The "seminars" are run by Resource Realizations, Premier Educational, or whatever they are calling themselves this week. They go round all the WWASP schools doing the same thing. It is quite possible that chi3's daughter will get the same trainer as Kelly had. In any case, the trainers all have the same MO.
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thanks, that is the kind of information i am finding very helpful. i really do want to talk to some ex-CSA kids or parents. if any are on here or someone knows someone i would appreciate it.
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Why not ask ISAC if they can put you in touch with someone?
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Okay, parents know their child will or did particpate in seminars and quasi therapy. But, do they know the specifics of what happens in either?
I would say that would be a NO, not only for W programs but all programs.
How many would think it okay if they did? Do parents experience the same 'therapy' in their seminars?
While I know regression therapy can be very useful, can't say that I'd want my kid subjected to their bastardized version of it.
Having the client play the victim role in regression is not desirable, to no knowledge. I would certain have the victim take the role of perpetrator. Genuinely effective. But, then you have to have highly trained staff conduct one on one sessions. Can't have a production line regression party.
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I want to stress this point - it matters not which wwasp program you are concerned with - they are all the same.
I played this game to. When I was first learning about the abuse and neglect that takes place - I took great comfort in the fact Dundee wasn't mentioned. It was a false comfort based on false notions that the program varried from place to place. It does not. It is the same program in all the wwasp "schools". What happens in one, happens in the rest. It is what the program IS.
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Wrong they are run similar, but each one has it's differences.
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On 2005-01-15 04:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Wrong they are run similar, but each one has it's differences."
Not enough to matter.
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There are some differences, sure. One may call its particular hell hole the Hobbit, were as another calls it Observation Place (OP), and another calls it R & R (don't know what that stands for)and another calls it Special needs, and so on - but it is all the same kind of place where the same kinds of things occur.
If it is a WWASP "school" - then it is a Program school - and the Program is the Program.
And the relationships that exist between the owners of these programs and the President of WWASP and Teen Help and R&R billing and on and on, indicate a sameness of purpose, motivation and ideology.
They do market the various "schools" as if there are differences - but if a parent shows a disinclination for one, they will sell them which ever one they can, and assure them it is also the perfect choice. It matters not - because they are all the same. The budding psychotic and the drug abuser and the kid whose grades dropped a point will all receive the exact same kind of "therapy".
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Most of the schools only have intervention now which is where the kid just sits with other kids in the same boat and some faculty and upper levels. I believe op is only in jamaica now. Maybe they are trying? I don;t think op is right either, but jamaica gets most of the hard cases also. The one who cares
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Excuses, Excuses, excuses.
Youre unable to do any other job and this shit was made such a part of your life instead of dropped at the doorstep when you left DeSisto (whee, arent cults FUN!) that you cant help but go along with it even if you have the capacity to now think, and think its wrong!
God. Can you even get another job, "OWC"? Huh?
Why the fuck do you think they send recalcitrant children to Jamaica? BECAUSE THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT IN JAMAICA!
They're not watched very carefully by the locals, who only want their money and probaly dont give a fuck about 'spoiled white american kids'.
DO NOT DARE give me bullshit about how the hard cases deserve it, or whatever. I'm SICK of it. Free your mind or go back to sleep and just dont ever wake the fuck up. All you can do is kidnap and terrify kids and act like youre some great man when you only handcuff the ones too afraid to try to run and give them a hug when they're so fucked over by their sheer terror they'd cling to any sort of affection at all. I give money for church organs in the hope the organ music will distract the congregation's attention from the rest of the service.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
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On 2005-01-15 11:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Most of the schools only have intervention now which is where the kid just sits with other kids in the same boat and some faculty and upper levels. I believe op is only in jamaica now. Maybe they are trying? I don;t think op is right either, but jamaica gets most of the hard cases also. The one who cares"
I find that incredibly hard to believe. OP/R&R/whatever you want to call it is such a fundamental part of the program. I find it more likely that WWASP is spreading this bullshit around to make parents believe they've changed. They haven't. They won't. WWASP is just as abusive as dangerous now as it was before.
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You only doing that thing that kids do, that i told all of you about. They try to get at a person by pushing thier buttons. But niles i am beyond you and your immature mentality.I had another job and was recruited to do this one, I have never been without a job since I was 18. I have been working longer than you have been alive. So nice try. I hve had 2 other jobs where i worked for a company 7 years at a time. So nice try young one. I think i'll push your buttons now, I am leaving for a job, see ya later niles. Get more than a speech therapist, get a real one. If only you really knew.
The one who cares
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On 2005-01-16 03:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You only doing that thing that kids do, that i told all of you about. They try to get at a person by pushing thier buttons. But niles i am beyond you and your immature mentality.I had another job and was recruited to do this one, I have never been without a job since I was 18. I have been working longer than you have been alive. So nice try. I hve had 2 other jobs where i worked for a company 7 years at a time. So nice try young one. I think i'll push your buttons now, I am leaving for a job, see ya later niles. Get more than a speech therapist, get a real one. If only you really knew.
The one who cares"
Huh??? Your posts are getting more and more difficult to decipher.
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On 2005-01-16 03:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
I hve had 2 other jobs where i worked for a company 7 years at a time.
The one who cares"
Just out of curiosity, what kind of jobs were those?Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright
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"You only doing that thing that kids do, that i told all of you about. They try to get at a person by pushing thier buttons. But niles i am beyond you and your immature mentality"
"So nice try young one. I think i'll push your buttons now, I am leaving for a job, see ya later niles. Get more than a speech therapist, get a real one. If only you really knew. "
Jesus christ dude, all I have to do is seperate your rambling posts to make you look stupid now. You take all the fun out of it :sad: The lust for power, for dominating others, inflames the heart more than any other passion
Tacitus
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Because i might not double check and spell check what i write and the fact i was not the best in english in school, does not make me stupid, as i said i have a degree, and it's not in english as you know. See when you feel deafeted niles, you stoop low to insulting people. Thinking that it will piss them off. I don't get mad at your immature ramblings. Ginger if you must know I worked in a resaurant doing everything from waiter to manager to cook. I did this while going to school. At the same time started working as a volunteer with kids at a YMCA where i had gone to as a kid. Then up until last year woked at another YMCA doing everything from After school program, summer camp coach, sports specialist all with kids 5-17 boys and girls.
I only stopped doing it last year, because i was now doing my current job and working just a day or 2 a week for the Y.But i found this job was making me miss the Y too often, so i decided to just do this one and left the Y. I hope your curiosity as been satisfied now Ginger. My job went very well yesterday, the boy kind of knew he needed some help and a change of enviorment. We had some good talks I told him as much as i know about the school he was going to, and he watched a DVD with my partner. I got a rare hug and thank you goodbye. I know you will now say, but he won't be thanking me in a day. But i do tell these kids that it will be very hard at first and i don't lie to them at all. Sure i don't know all the rules, but i told him that also. Most transporters lie to them and tell them very little about what is happening. I also know that whatever I say I am still the evil one to you guys.I just thought i would share how a job goes for me more often than not.
The one who cares
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I think it's better that you're nice to the kids than if you were horrible to the kids, of course.
I wish you would insist that the kids you transport *at least* be either kids who know they are going and agree to go *or* kids who have had a psychiatrist who has seen them recommend that they go and approve sending that kid to that specific school *or* kids with multiple arrests on a rap sheet (or one really serious arrest), *or* kids with multiple failed drug tests.
If you had some criteria for the jobs you would accept to screen out inappropriate admissions, since nobody *else* is screening out inappropriate admissions, I think people would be at least *somewhat* less hostile to you.
Can't you see why *any* rational person would be concerned that some of these kids are getting sent off for truly trivial reasons?
I personally know a kid that happened to. She's out of the program and in college now. In her case, her mom and stepdad are complete and total flakes and serial child neglecters to boot. They would do things like tell her with absolutely no advance notice and no plans for her care that they were taking off on business trips in different directions to be out of town for as much as a week and she needed to "find someplace to stay." They pulled that stunt *multiple* times. Her mere *presence* was a major inconvenience in their high-power corporate jet-setting lives. (I had that information from the friend whose family frequently took her in when her parents pretty much just ran off and abandoned her.)
Unfortunately, it's *not* rare that the parents are flakes and the kid's a basically normal teen who would do just fine and dandy in foster care. Okay, foster care sucks compared to a real, loving family. There are plenty of kids going to programs because the parents are flakes and want to pretend it's the normal kid that's the problem, not *them*. And in those cases, the kid would do better in foster care than in some program.
Yes, there are problems that require residential care. Yes, there are places that provide quality residential care and only accept kids with the kind of problems they specialize in treating and who genuinely need residential care.
But nobody is looking out for the kids being inappropriately placed. Including you.
"Caring" without right action is empty sentiment.
If you had, or have, standards for which kids you will and won't escort, that screens out kids being inappropriately placed, I think a lot of people still might not like what you do, but would have at least a little more respect for you.
My problem with you is that you seem to presume that if you are called, the kid automatically really does need to be in involuntary residential treatment. Or that it's automatically okay to put any old kid in residential treatment.
My problem with you is you're coming across as irresponsible in accepting cases for transport and as if you expect your good intentions to substitute for good behavior.
Sometimes people do horrible things to others in the name of "caring". Caring is not enough.
What I find objectionable about your behavior is that you appear to take no concrete action to assure that in each case your behavior in delivering kid to program is not making you an accomplice before the fact to actual harm to that child.
If you *do* take action to weed out cases where doing what you do is liable to harm the kid, then I'd like to hear about it. If you just take somebody's word for it with no standards, then to me that comes across as depraved indifference as to whether or not you are, in specific individual cases, enabling child abuse and neglect.
So anyway, not knowing whether you do, or don't, have specific ethical standards for jobs you will accept and jobs you will reject, and whether those standards are adequate or not, is why I'm very ambivalent about you.
Timoclea
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Timoclea nails it
On 2005-01-18 09:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
If you *do* take action to weed out cases where doing what you do is liable to harm the kid, then I'd like to hear about it. If you just take somebody's word for it with no standards, then to me that comes across as depraved indifference as to whether or not you are, in specific individual cases, enabling child abuse and neglect.
Here's a comparison. Somewhere in Mississippi some years ago, the corps of a dark complected young man was found washed up on the bank of a smallish river. This corpse had heavy steel chain wrapped around the torso and shoulders.
Now, some people might suspect foul play in that scenareo. But we're talking Mississippi a couple of decades ago. So they just assumed it was a tragic accidental death that occured during the attempted theft of a length of heavy chain.
How `bout you, OWC? If a kid's bones were found in the desert not far from one of these remote "therapeutic" boarding schools to which you deliver unwilling participants, would you even suspect anything amiss? Or would you just write it off as another complicated suicide by exposure?
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin
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Do you mean if i take the parents word for it,
When you say Somebody's word for it? The one who cares
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On 2005-01-18 17:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Do you mean if i take the parents word for it,
When you say Somebody's word for it? The one who cares"
Parents have a conflict of interest. Maybe there's something wrong with *them* that is making the home situation with the teen unpleasant.
Parents aren't perfect. I should know. I am one.
Some parents do the very best they can for their children and genuinely look out for their kids' welfare.
Some parents' best sucks rocks.
Some parents are total flakes.
Some parents are selfish bastards.
Just taking the parents' word for it that a kid needs to be committed is negligent, IMAO.
Timoclea
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I'm sorry Tim I don't agree. The one who cares
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On 2005-01-19 04:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm sorry Tim I don't agree. The one who cares"
That's a cogent argument if ever there was one! :roll:
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On 2005-01-19 04:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm sorry Tim I don't agree. The one who cares"
Do you have any kids? It sure sounds like you're speaking from a vast well of inexperience *personally* of parenting, day in and day out from babyhood.
As parents, one of the things I and my husband have had to get used to is constantly questioning our own decisions about discipline, rules, strategies, childcare, what responsibilities and privileges to allow at what age, education. This isn't us being insecure people, it's just the nature of parenthood. Everybody is winging it. That's what parenthood *is*.
The people who are all fucked up and flaky don't automatically get issued godlike wisdom when they conceive a child---no more than we did when we conceived ours.
Any group of human beings is a mixed bag with some irresponsible folks, some sadistic folks, some selfish folks, some assholes, and some flakes in it.
Off my meds, I'd definitely count as one of the flakes. Fortunately, my major in college (psychology), while it was damned useless from a career perspective, taught me enough about the human brain to understand why *I* needed to be practically fanatical about taking my meds and following my condition with a competent physician.
Parents who are irresponsible, sadistic, selfish, assholes, or flakes DO NOT necessarily have screwed up children. A lot of times their kids have difficult adolescences, but the resilience of kids and the influence of other adults and kids in a kid's life means that very often these kids come to recognize how screwed up their parents are and take their parents bad points as a negative example. A lot of times the screwiest parents turn up with kids that are better balanced than they are. A lot of times it's because the kid has to be the responsible, sane grownup in the house at an early age and learns by trial and error to be a better person than his/her parents.
A lot of times the kid *doesn't* turn out so well, but it's not *at all* uncommon to have screwy parents and basically normal kids.
You "don't agree" that this situation can and does happen because it's personally a lot *easier* for you to bury your head in the sand and pretend that all parents who say their kid is bad are right.
It is also not at all uncommon for screwy people to do well financially. I grew up in a slightly upper middle class neighborhood, and I live in one now. My neighbors mostly *could* afford one of these schools if they really wanted the kid out of the house. And putting the kid in one of these schools if the kid was just a pain in the butt and the parents were screwy would be more socially acceptable in our social class than kicking the kid out of the house. Kicking the kid out of the house is so....working class. (I'm not being a snob, I just know the unwritten rules and class prejudices of my social set.)
So, basically, what you've admitted to me is you're negligent as hell and just pretending you're not by pretending that *all* parents who have the money and inclination to warehouse a kid to get him/her out of the house are sane and decent, and *all* kids being sent away by their parents are bad kids.
Well, around here, we pay a hell of a lot of tax money to DFACS (dept. of family and children's services) because that's just not so. There are "nice" people in "nice" neighborhoods who are rotten parents and abuse and neglect their kids. Social class is no innoculation against child abuse and neglect.
The existence of DFACS and the fact that they *do* investigate in "nice" neighborhoods and they *do* find abusive and neglectful parents with "nice" incomes *disproves* your "I disagree with you" hypothesis that all parents with the money to send a kid away are good parents.
You don't believe that because it's true.
You believe it because it's easy and convenient for *you* and because it lets meet your own eyes in the mirror each day.
Bluntly, you're admitting you're negligent.
I disapprove of your bad behavior.
You may not give a rip what I think, and that's your privilege. But your protestations of how much you "care" are empty. You *tell* yourself you care so you can pat yourself on the back, but you really *don't*.
If you "cared" so much, you'd have ethical standards about when *not* to believe the parents.
Your actions speak so loudly they drown out your words.
Timoclea
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On 2005-01-19 04:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm sorry Tim I don't agree. The one who cares"
Even if the parent in question is someone like David Koresh? One has to multiply thoughts to the point where there aren't enough
policemen to control them
--Stanislaw Lec