Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Perrigaud on January 03, 2005, 05:13:00 AM
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I'm curious as to what would anyone do if their kid was severly out of control? This means that grounding wouldn't work, they already had a record, drugs were used, physical abuse was administered by them, and you had raised them the best you could.[ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-07 23:06 ]
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On 2005-01-03 02:13:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"I'm curious as to what all those avid anti-program people would do if their kid was severly out of control? This means that grounding wouldn't work, they already had a record, drugs were used, physical abuse was administered by them, and you had raised them the best you could."
I can't give you a specific answer, since it depends on the child's personality and the specific details of the situation.
But I will say that I would, probably, send my child to therapy. I would play an active role in working things out. I will not pay strangers in some program to do it for me. I will take a responsibility, as a parent, to help my child, instead of following blindly any organization or person who advertise themselves as being the ultimate solution.
I will never give my child away for other people to raise. I will never trust any program that doesn't allow me free communication with my child, visiting him/her freely, and so on. I will never trust a program that attempts, as WWASP and its kind do, to replace a child's family and parents.
I will raise my child on my own and help them to the best of my ability. I will never trust any program to do that for me. This is MY job. If I may have made mistakes in handling certain situations, I will not pay others to correct these mistakes for me. I will keep my child at home, talk to them, involve professionals if needed, and do my job as a parent in helping my child work things out.
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I think perigaud's question was if all that stuff like therapy has not worked and you can't work things out. Your child tells you fuck off i know what i'm doing. You see most of the parents i have dealt with have tried everything and this is a lsat resort to send them away. All has failed you have lost control of your child. What do you do??My mom tried therapy for me and i just sat there for an hour and told the thearapist to fuck off, and then i just refused to go. I don't think you can undersatnd what these parents have gone through to make a decision to send thier kid away.By the way a thearapist is also a stranger also. I really don't think allot of grasp what these parents are going through.The one that cares
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On 2005-01-03 05:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think perigaud's question was if all that stuff like therapy has not worked and you can't work things out. Your child tells you fuck off i know what i'm doing. You see most of the parents i have dealt with have tried everything and this is a lsat resort to send them away. All has failed you have lost control of your child. What do you do??My mom tried therapy for me and i just sat there for an hour and told the thearapist to fuck off, and then i just refused to go. I don't think you can undersatnd what these parents have gone through to make a decision to send thier kid away.By the way a thearapist is also a stranger also. I really don't think allot of grasp what these parents are going through.The one that cares"
The One Who Kidnaps,
You hold dear to your delusions, that kidnapping children and sending them to gulags to be abused and "re-wired" (as Jay Kay likes to call it) is the best thing that can happen to a child.
These is no justification, no excuse, ever, to sending a child to program, unless the child is mentally ill and there is no other way to stabilize his/her condition. You kidnap children. There is no justification or excuse for that.
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In your opinion, not the laws.
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And if you think the decsion patterns of these kids don't need changing, then you have lost it.
I believe that's all Jay Kay maent with that statement.
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On 2005-01-03 05:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"And if you think the decsion patterns of these kids don't need changing, then you have lost it.
I believe that's all Jay Kay maent with that statement. "
No one said anything about children's "decision patterns". I haven't lost a thing, but it looks like you've lost plenty: your analytical ability, your critical thinking skills, and so on.
Jay Kay was referring to the coercive persuasion used by WWASP. Jay Kay was talking about brainwashing children, which is WWASP and others of its kind do. But I didn't believe, for a single second, that a WWASPie like you would be able to understand that. After all, the program is your Lord and Savior, right?
Your time is running out. WWASP and all the other gulags will be shut down, and children will no longer be kidnapped in the middle of the night to be sent off to concentration camps. Your time is running out.
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Wrong, wrong, wrong!!!But keep trying
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I'll take a stab at this. I went through an abusive program years ago. Hell, I even married another grad. We had two kids. We divorced when they were young. When the oldest was 16 she got into a lot of trouble. Ecstacy, failing school, violent mood swings (took a broom handle to her sister's room) etc. Now, my ex married an avid AAer and he became involved in AA after getting a DUI. When our daughter was going through this, and it was over a period of a little over 3 years, we were at our wits end. Didn't know what to do. The ex and his wife came to me and said they were going to put her in a program. I said, "OVER MY DEAD FUCKING BODY". They kept telling me that she would end up in jail or dead if we didn't put her somewhere. We fought and fought over this. I won. She never went in. She did, however, scare the ever loving shit out of me for quite a while. The only thing I could do, aside from the endless talks we had, groundings etc....was let her go and let her experience her own consequences. Not the ones I had set up for her, but real life consequences. She screwed around for about another year or so. I have to say that these 3 or 4 years were the absolute hardest of my life....harder than being in my program (which says a lot). But, once she finally began to grow up a little, things gradually got better and better. She's doing fine now. She drinks occasionally, takes a hit off a joint now and then (oh, I know...people will tell me she's still a druggie :roll:) has a scholarship for college and is ready to tackle life. She told me that the pressure of living under AA/program mentality was entirely too much for a child. Mistakes are not mistakes, they're 'character flaws', if you smoke a joint you're going to DIE...and on and on and on.
Looking back on this I see a lot that I would have done differently and a lot that I wish my ex had done differently. When parents have a kid who is acting up, and I don't mean just a little talking back, they don't know how to deal with it. If they've ever been caught smoking a joint, or if their grades drop, or if their friends change, or if they're depressed etc. then everything is blamed on the evil drug. Not so. It creates an environment where the it's ALL a life or death situation. Parents who buy into all the scare tactics that these places use (you child will be deadinsaneorinjail if you leave here) are setting themselves and their children up for a lifetime of pain, self doubt and fear.
There is no easy answer for this and my approach may not work for everyone. But, DAMN. I had these people telling me that she was going to DIE if we didn't hurry up and get her into a program. She didn't. She's fine now. Yes, there were some scary times, more than I care to remember....certainly more than what I did before I was placed in a program. And what of all these other kids who are 'recommended' for programs but the parents have enough sense NOT to do that? Are they all dead too??? Don't believe the hype.
This discussion could also go into the entirety of the 'drug war culture' too, but I'm not going there unless asked and on a different thread then. It's a touchy, touchy subject.
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I hope you do relize how lucky you were that she did not die or end up in jail. I commend you for doing what you did, it probbably was just as hard a decision for you to let her go as it would have been to send her away. But you did take a real chance. Sure now she might just drink and smoke a little pot, but from what you've said things were allot worse. She could have died just from the Ectasy use, i'm not try to be mean when i say this but the ectasy probbably led to sex too early and thus she could have gotten some type of VD or worse.She could have been arrested if she had had the bad luck of being caught getting or doing some of these drugs. I do hope you relize that you did take a huge chance. You are very lucky! I my self after getting back from my program did end up doing harder drugs and i was very luckythat i survived what i went through. What you went through i don't wish on anyone. But i also respect your convictions of not sending her away and trying to do it yourselves.Ther are many more parents that don;t send thier kids away than do. But you should understand more than others here waht a parent goes through and how scary it is. Of course everyone does not get the help they need and allot revert back to bad choices sauch as i did.But it has helped many kids. And planted a seed about right and wrong with the ones such as me, who took a few more years to get it together. The one that cares
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That's great she's alive. Wish I could say that about my friends who did the same things.
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On 2005-01-03 06:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I hope you do relize how lucky you were that she did not die or end up in jail.
Why is it that program people can't seem to function without this phrase?
She could have died just from the Ectasy use, i'm not try to be mean when i say this but the ectasy probbably led to sex too early
Well, I'm glad you hvae a better understanding of the situation with MY daughter than I do. :roll:
She could have been arrested if she had had the bad luck of being caught getting or doing some of these drugs.
Yes, bad things could have happened to her (and did), but WORSE things were in store for her at one of the Gulags.
I my self after getting back from my program did end up doing harder drugs and i was very luckythat i survived what i went through.
Do you not see a problem with this?? Same thing with me. I did MUCH worse after getting OUT of my program. What's wrong with this picture???
But it has helped many kids.
I would beg to differ.
And planted a seed about right and wrong
That seed should have been planted by the parents from birth right on through the teen years. It's not a programs responsibility to teach right from wrong, it's the parent's.
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This kills me. You ask a question, I answer it and it's all just "luck" that my kid is OK because anything that contradicts your programmed beliefs COULDN'T be right. :roll:
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On 2005-01-03 07:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This kills me. You ask a question, I answer it and it's all just "luck" that my kid is OK because anything that contradicts your programmed beliefs COULDN'T be right. :roll: "
That's exactly it. When something contradicts the program's ideology, they either modify it, or completely erase it, as if they never read/seen it.
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On 2005-01-03 06:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'll take a stab at this. I went through an abusive program years ago......
that was me
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"But you did take a real chance."
So do you, couple of times every month and with other people's kids.
These people trust you. They believe you. They have no doubt that the devil that they don't know is better than the one they do.
But the reality is that when you put a kid in a coercive behavior mod program, there's a far higher than average chance they may die of exposure, positional asphyxiation, heat exhaustion, untreated illness or other complications of the methods used there. You also raise the chances that they'll run away under circumstances that this same kid would never be exposed to or consider otherwise (like, for example, trecking accross 40 miles of badlands or running in a foreign country). Or that they'll run and, this time, they really, really mean it! They're not just upset and run to a friend's house for a couple of weeks till they cool off. They'll be scared to ever let themselves be found till they reach the age of majority.
Even if all goes "well", according to the vast majority of people who've graduated more than a couple of years ago, there's damned near a 100% chance of their suffering some psyche injury, like PTSD and major social problems.
And if you ask them about these unwanted side effects, all they'll tell you is that they make no guarantees. Lots of promises, very little info. to back them up and no guarantees at all.
The Program always promises that, after 'treatment', your kid and your relationship with them will never be the same. Judging by some of the personalities in these forums, I believe them.
Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution, the time will come when medicine will organize an undercover dictatorship. To restrict the art of healing to one class of men, and deny equal privilege to others, will be to constitute the Bastille of medical science. All such laws are un-American and despotic, and have no place in a Republic. The Constitution of this Republic should make special privilege for medical freedom as well as religious freedom.
--Abridged quote-Benjamin Rush, M.D., a signer of the Declaration of Independence
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Perri,
I understand your feelings toward the program. What I want to say to you, is that there was nothing magical or miraculous about what the program did. They are not saints. Any parent could do for their child exactly what the program does, given the desire and inclination.
I posted some tips on that a while back, rather than reiterate:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... 9&start=10 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=523&forum=9&start=10)
Why do you think your parents didn't invest that time in helping you? Too busy with their own lives? Ignorant? Indifferent?
And by all means, don't interpret this to mean that I, in any way, support the methods used by the program. In fact most of society would not condone their behaviors if they were made known. A parent would be stripped of their rights if they committed the same attrocities.[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-01-03 10:11 ]
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***I hope you do relize how lucky you were that she did not die or end up in jail. I commend you for doing what you did, it probbably was just as hard a decision for you to let her go as it would have been to send her away. But you did take a real chance.
OWC,
Would you please provide this public forum with the statistics that support your fear and hysteria? I understand you're attached to your livlihood and all, but jeez louise.
The world is fraught with potential dangers. The solution is not to put kids in bubbles. The overwhelming majority do just fine. And many who attend programs come out in much worse shape. PTSD. Totally ill prepared for life in the real world. Unfortuantely, we won't have the stats on the true efficacy (or lack) of programs for a while, if ever. Because no one wants to put them under the microscope for a closer look.
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On 2005-01-03 10:28:00, Deborah wrote:
"***I hope you do relize how lucky you were that she did not die or end up in jail. I commend you for doing what you did, it probbably was just as hard a decision for you to let her go as it would have been to send her away. But you did take a real chance.
OWC,
Would you please provide this public forum with the statistics that support your fear and hysteria? I understand you're attached to your livlihood and all, but jeez louise.
The world is fraught with potential dangers. The solution is not to put kids in bubbles. The overwhelming majority do just fine. And many who attend programs come out in much worse shape. PTSD. Totally ill prepared for life in the real world. Unfortuantely, we won't have the stats on the true efficacy (or lack) of programs for a while, if ever. Because no one wants to put them under the microscope for a closer look.
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:tup: :tup: :tup:
Timoclea
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Fuck stats they mean nothing. The truth is this parent did play russian roulete with the childs life. It is sad that there have been deaths and suicides at some of these schools, but there are plenty more kids out there either dead or in jail, or not even one of those but some that went on such a downward spiral and did not get any help and are now soem of the bottom crust of society. All will not die, but will end up homeless and on the street hooking or whatever else. So it is not just death and jail. It could be a life of despair. If you don;t think this parent was lucky, the you are just convincing me more and more of your not facing reality.
The one that cares
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On 2005-01-03 12:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Fuck stats they mean nothing. The truth is this parent did play russian roulete with the childs life. It is sad that there have been deaths and suicides at some of these schools, but there are plenty more kids out there either dead or in jail, or not even one of those but some that went on such a downward spiral and did not get any help and are now soem of the bottom crust of society. All will not die, but will end up homeless and on the street hooking or whatever else. So it is not just death and jail. It could be a life of despair. If you don;t think this parent was lucky, the you are just convincing me more and more of your not facing reality.
The one that cares"
So, first "Fuck stats they mean nothing"
*THEN*
you go off spouting how its unfortunate that there were deatsh and suicides in the programs, but if they werent in the program, they are GUARANTEED to be "dead or in jail".
You just contradicted yourself. :wstupid:
If the stats mean nothing how the hell do you KNOW they're going to end up in the bottom crust of society? Clairvoyance? Arrogance? Or were you told to believe it at DeSisto and by the programs you work for now?
"Life of despair"? Tell that the people living one IN the program.
YOU are the one not facing reality. Kids grew up just fine without torture camps. Why do we need them now, despite the facts that problems with kids have been on the decline for about a decade?
The only thing going up is fearmongering and profits.To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
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On 2005-01-03 12:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Fuck stats they mean nothing.
Except when you spout them off arbitrarily with no evidence to back it up.
The truth is this parent did play russian roulete with the childs life.
Amazing how you can make such a judgement off of one post that I made on some forum. Do you use the powers of deduction when dealing with the kids you kidnap and incarcerate?
It is sad that there have been deaths and suicides at some of these schools,
It's much more than sad there buddy boy, it's both tragic and criminal.
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=34164 (http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=34164)
All will not die, but will end up homeless and on the street hooking or whatever else.
Are you seriously saying this about ALL?? Really ALL would end up hooking or homeless????
If you don;t think this parent was lucky, the you are just convincing me more and more of your not facing reality.
The one that cares"
It was much more than luck. Life kicked her ass for a little while. She learned on her own what the NA meetings that her dad forced her to go to couldn't teach her.
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Sure the majoruty of the kids do fine and that is why there are very few kids that get sent away % wise. Any thing i spout off about percentages is as i said what i have seen. I was one kid of 4 kids at my high school that got sent away that i know off and the school had 2000 kids. Sure if your kid is doing things similar to the child in the post earlier, by all means let them have thier freedom to do what they want. That's real responsible parenting. I believe it's called giving up. Which is what that parent did and wow now she is a wonderful girl with a scholorship. Who still drinks and smokes pot now and then. Not all are so lucky!
When you 20 year old live a lot longer i will show you some respect. I again am sorry if you went through something bad at one of these schools, but you are here alive. Even though you have so much anger still. You need therapy, just my opinion.Allot of you are in need.
The one that is getting very tired of this BS
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No not all, there are many who surive,but with many scars. The one that cares
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No one lives an authentic life and comes out unscathed. That's how nature intended us to learn. You are one of the most anxious programmies that has posted here. If not anxious then desperately protecting your livlihood. Relax. It is highly unlikely that you will ever reach agreement with activists here. It ain't going to happen. And if you can't take the heat, then you'll just have to leave the kitchen.
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1. Your opinion means exactly jack shit
2. I was never in such a place
3. The only thing you are good at is kidnapping children. Period. Kiss my ass! You're an expert in criminal behavior in any other circumstance. Go get a job for the mob.
4. Programs are NOT NECESSARY. PEOPLE CAN GROW UP WITHOUT THEM.
WE HAVE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS, DUMBASS.
They dont even DO anything but make them comply with the program or face torture in some form or another, and throw them in those BS seminars that mentally break them down so they adhere to whatever dogma they want to beat into them.
Thats not fixing anything. You might as well send kids to a program for a cold. The cold will go away and the kid comes out grown up, but the program didnt really do either. They grew up and got rid of their cold on their own.
P.S. You still use the spelling and grammar of a 12 year old. And its not "BS" when there are accusations of abuse for the past 25+ years that all match up, from people who went to all kinds of programs for all kinds of reasons, or none at all.
Its called valid suspicion. Thousands of people dont tell the same lie for 25 years from hundreds to thousands of programs, having been sent there for all kinds of reasons.
Sure, a 'manipulator' might lie, but what about kids going in for treatment of eating disorders, depression, PTSD, or whatnot? Why is it *EVERYONE* going into those programs are automatically callied liars?
You're not going to answer a SINGLE fucking thing I said in this post, "one who cares".
Go back to your job of kidnapping kids and leaving them with these shady programs where nobody knows what goes on inside, yet they allow cameras inside PRISONS all the damn time!Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
Mark Twain
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You sure do make a lot of judgements about situations and people you know very little about. I've given some peripheral details about my life and instead of asking questions to try and get a better understanding of the situation so that we could have a more intelligent debate about it (whew...sorry for the run-on) you spout off snap judgements. You have about .01% of the facts in this particular case yet you feel completely qualified to do that?
You can dress this up any way you want. You can say it's all for their own good, that they would be deadinsaneorinjail or whatever other fucking cliches and slogans you want to throw around. You kidnap kids for a living. You undermine any sense of self that they have. You 'rewire' them to the program's designs. You will never understand the sheer psychological rape and murder that goes on in these places. You will never understand how long lasting the effects are. No matter what. You haven't been there, you don't know. I've been on BOTH sides of the fence.
Thank GOD I didn't turn to someone like you for help. My kid would have ended up in one of those places and she would have had to deal with the fall-out for the rest of her life. This is a kid who supports herself, contributes to society, is getting her education and understands that she is fully in control of her life. Her choices determine her path. I never[/b] gave up on her. Quite the contrary, I always had faith in her. I gave up on the program dogma that's been shoved in my head for the last 20 years or so. It's funny, when I tell this to program people it's almost like they're upset to hear she's not in the streets somewhere. This is a person who was told (by AA/program people) that she was going to die or be a hooker on the streets. It's almost like she's pissed them off by proving them wrong. PROTECT THE DOGMA AT ALL COSTS!!!!! :roll: Can't have these parents thinking they don't actually need us.
That being said, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be places for kids with severe emotional or psychological illness or someplace to put truly violent people, but... 1. that's not what we're talking about here and 2. even those kids need to be someplace where there are true[/b] professionals. Not these pseudo-counselors.
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This is the same kind of mentality. He was faking it, it's the kids fault, they're out of control, they're manipulative.
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.homestead.c ... aynes.html (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.homestead.com/TonyHaynes.html)
The kids say that after several hours in the sun, Anthony began to hallucinate. "He said he saw Indians and water," says Allen. He was also eating dirt. By sundown, they say Anthony had gotten worse. "He was passed out. His face was just pale," says Russell.
But Colonel Long says Haynes was faking his sickness. "I've seen Anthony do the very same thing before," he says. Long believes Anthony was pretending again because he wanted to go home. The staff was told to put Anthony in a pickup truck along with other kids on their way to take a shower.
"Anthony was sitting up, with his eyes squinting, " says Long. "And I said, 'Anthony, do you want to go home?' And he'd open one eye. And he'd look at me. 'I just wanna go home, Colonel.' And he shut 'em back down"
"He didn't say that!" says Russell. "He would never say that."
"Colonel has a golden tongue," says Angel. "He tries to say things that kind of fit in."
Sirveorge Jones and another instructor took Anthony to a nearby motel room.
The staff put Anthony in the bathtub, turned on the shower, and reportedly left him alone for five to ten minutes. When they returned, according to some witnesses, the 14-year-old was facedown in the water and barely responsive. One of the instructors claimed he was concerned about Anthony's condition and called Long.
"There was nothing in the conversation that I had to be concerned about," says Long.
Despite that call, Long was still convinced Anthony was faking, and ordered his staff to bring Anthony back to camp. That's where Colonel Long finally got concerned and tried to revive Anthony.
At 9:43 p.m., Long's wife called 911. At this point, Anthony Haynes was not breathing.
Anthony was airlifted to the hospital. In Phoenix, his mother's phone rang. she rushed to the hospital, where doctors told her that her son had died.
An autopsy said the cause of death was "complications of near drowning and dehydration due to heat exposure." But the medical examiner called the death an accident.
Long still believes Anthony was trying to go home. "I think Anthony wanted to get himself sick, and sick to the point whereby he would get himself out," he says.
Maricopa County sheriff Joe Arpaio shut down the camp. His detectives started investigating Anthony's death and Colonel Long. "This was a kid that died under a very, very strange situation," Arpaio says.
Long doesn't believe he was responsible for Anthony's death. "Do I feel bad that I didn't take him home alive to his parents? Yeah, I feel bad about that," he says. "So bad that you will never, ever understand how bad I feel. Am I responsible? I didn't kill Anthony."
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Well, again people are making me out to be all about the program. I DON'T THINK IT'S A SOLUTION OR A CURE. IT'S NOT. I TOOK WHAT I NEEDED LEFT WHAT I DIDN'T. IT HELPED. I DECIDED TO MAKE A CHANGE. MY PARENTS ARE NOT PERFECT THEY DID ALL THEY COULD. I WASN'T GOING TO LISTEN TO THEM, THEIR RULES, THEIR MORALS, THE PUNISHMENTS, THE GROUNDINGS, OR THEIR INTERVENTIONS.
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You have proved once again how mature you are.I don;t have the time to spelling and grammer checks. So english was not my best subject, like your immature banter about it is going to get me mad. I can not get mad at a simple mind as yourself who has not even come close to growing up. You see that is what kids do when they want to get at someone, they try to talk about something that will get you mad. So what my grammer and spelling are not so great. But you have been able to read everything i have wrote.
Stop the child BS, oh i;m sorry you don't know anything else. to the parent, whatever you say, but you did play russian roulete with your kids future. The one that cares
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I still haven't gotten any good responses to my original question. What would you do if you tried:
1. Grounding your kid and they just don't abide.
2. Taking their car away: they sneak out or walk
3. Therapy: they lie, refuse to talk, or such.
4. Giving the Chores: They flat out tell you to go to hell.
5. Letting them do whatever: They break the law and you're responsible because they're underage and your the guardian.
*let me know if there are other options other than just legally emancipating them. Oh, and could you really do that?*
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Thier answer will be i'll do anything, but send them away. You won;t get any real responses because they would not know what to do. This one parent took a very big chance, as you and me know. They however will not believe it.
Again don't let these people get you mad perri.
You are a shining example of what good can come from some of these schools. Be proud!
Be very proud!! The one that cares
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Deb,
I know I'll never change people's minds. However it's more of a quest of learning other's views.
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Yes, Perri. Be proud. You were kidnapped, abused, and then you just surrendered, and let them re-wire your brain. Now you defend those who abused you on the net. Be proud. Be very, very proud.
The one who kidnaps,
Everyone here already know that you will do anything, say anything, to protect your delusions and convince yourself that what was done to you, and what you do to others, is just and good and justified. You obviously have a LOT of problems if you need so badly to justify what you do and what was done to you. You kidnap children for a living. It doesn't matter what you want to call it. You destroyed dozens of lives, just so you could keep your delusions. That is sad, sick, and dangerous.
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Be proud anonymous. Be proud that you are so feeble minded as to believe that humanity is so weak and easily manipulated. Be proud that you are one of the weak ones that would supposedly be re-wired. My goodness you're annoying. I gave in blah blah blah. What support you have for the human mind. Would you rather pay taxes for keeping me incarcerated cause I took a knife to your kids throat? Wake up. I grew up and it just so happened that the program helped. Again feeblemind it didn't cure or fix me. Oh and I wasn't kidnapped, abused, bound, gagged, or mailiciously hurt. Sorry that I won't fit into your sick fantasy.[ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-04 06:02 ]
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This guy is addicted to the adulation that comes from being associated with these places. They get to feel like they're the sole beacon of light in an otherwise dark world. :roll: They're the ONLY hope for these kids. It's very typical among cults. He's really fairly brainwashed himself. He seems to actually believe his own bullshit.
Go back and read Ginger's post about the "love" he gets from these kids. She nailed it.
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I'm still waiting on a concrete answer. Really, what would you do? What have you done? Did it work? I'm just curious of people's opinions, ideas, alternatives and such. What are your alternatives?
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Perrigaud,
The original response to your question was a story of how one person handled a similar situation. It obviously was not what you wanted to hear, but still "concrete" advice from someone who had been through it.
As for what to do you will never get an instruction book for children. Is that what you expect? The truth of the matter is the parent child relationship starts young. Not at the time of a problem. If a lifetime of mutual respect has been built before teenage rebellion I believe the rest will work itself out. Some teens will rebel some will use drugs others won't. But in the end if the child has a good head on their shoulders they will figure it out. If they don't mature then they have to face the consequences. I am not sure when this shift occured in society. Why are you so afraid that your child may face a consequence for his/her actions but so willing to send them away instead?
Look around and talk to other adults not related to this forum or the program in anyway. Most have stories of their wild teenage or college days. Yet most accepted and dealt with whatever came their way as a result. I think you will see in the end it is not just "anti-program people" who have this opinion.
The Graduate
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Perrigaud, you are so pumped full of program fighting instinct it makes my skin crawl, so I'm gonna try to make this short and sweet, because I have no desire to spend much time on you.
?Program? is a product that was sold to your parents, and you. In order for this product to be sold you had to be brainwashed that it was the end-all-be-all of cures. Being a good responsible parent is hard work, and most program parents I've met had their hands thrown up in the air saying, "I don't know what to do!" long before "progam" stepped in and blew tons of their money on a quick fix/crack pot philosophy, ei; brainwashing. And look at you, it worked! You believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that you owe your life to [Insert mind rape mill name here] All of you are victims.
So, what would I do?
If getting into family counseling, with the family support, and strong mutual family effort, strict restrictions on every level, and adamant adherence to these did not work, (which they do for me because I do what I say I will, and I'm not afraid to say no, and won't be manipulated) and my child was out of control ? But wait! Every situation is different?
Your question is inconceivable. Give me a specific situation, age, problems, what had been done to try and help, etc... And then, we'll talk.
I have an idea! Why not tell us your story, Perrigaud. Tell us how old you were, when you "went in," and what you were doing, what your behavior was, and all the means your parents exhausted before shipping you off for someone else to deal with.
In all honesty believe that the parents are responsible for the way troubled kids/teens act out. Quite possibly a lack of discipline, attention, love, or all of the above, from early childhood on up. I think a lot of really screwed up adults realize they are clueless, and look to money and someone else to fix their mistakes. I will never see that as a healthy, responsible or loving way to handle my child. For me, when all else crumbles at my feet, I use love to heal it ? real love, not program hogwash, brainwash, cult, tough love.
Love is not about control, and you will never gain real respect, obedience or love with control.
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I think this shows one of the fundamental problems with these places. You seem to be looking for "THE" answer. Sorry to disappoint, but there isn't. There is no one size fits all, which seems to be precisely what the programs offer.
What seemed to help my daughter the most, from what she now tells me, is that I was always realistic with her. I didn't go off extolling some black and white rhetoric. I didn't try and use scare tactics with her when speaking to her about drugs or life in general. I was honest. I set real expectations for her. When she fell short, I called her on it...immediately and consistently. You seem to think that I was a permissive parent. My kids would beg to differ with you. I was just realistic about it and understood more than most, the realities of growing up. Parents get scared when kids start to think for themselves. I know I was. Since the big panic started back in the late 70s early 80s the tendency has been this 'nip it in the bud' type philosophy. That's a knee-jerk reaction. It's also fundamentally flawed in that it is a NORMAL part of becoming an adult. The key is to help GUIDE them get through that time, not try and skip it altogether. Rebellion IS a part of growing up and if you set unrealitic expectations on them you're only delaying the process.
There is no 'concrete' answer. Again, I think that's a HUGE part of this problem. You want someone to tell you how to get through this. We can all offer advice but the parent needs to tailor it to their OWN family. Take responsibility as a parent....from the start[/b]. The poster above made a great point in that it does take a lifetime of mutual respect. So many parents today have no idea what's going on in their kids lives until there's a problem. And then is seems to become somebody else's problem to fix. THAT, is very sad.
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Society seems to want a pill to fix this and a program to fix that and a system to fix the other. You can do that with some things in life, but parenting isn't one of them. THAT is exactly how these places sucker in parents every single day. The swear they have the answer and if you just blindly trust us, we'll fix your kid. Oh, but if it doesn't work, it's yours or your kids fault because you didn't 'really work it'. :roll: :roll:
Parents, quit being pussies!!!! Set your ground rules from the start, teach your values from the start. Give them the foundation they're going to desperately need when they DO start this process of change from adolescence to adulthood.
Out of the two parents that my kids have, the 'program faithful' one and me, I was considered to be the strict bitchy one. There were more rules set up at the other house but they were arbitrary and served no real teaching purpose. It was much more of a control issue. The 'consequences' they recieved from breaking those rules never worked because the kids knew it was full of shit. The rules that I set and saw were followed were borne out of an understanding of child/adolescent development. I wanted them to actually learn a lesson about life. It's not my job to make them do anything, it's my job to teach them how to live a good and decent life.
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On 2005-01-04 04:59:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"I still haven't gotten any good responses to my original question. What would you do if you tried:
1. Grounding your kid and they just don't abide.
2. Taking their car away: they sneak out or walk
3. Therapy: they lie, refuse to talk, or such.
4. Giving the Chores: They flat out tell you to go to hell.
5. Letting them do whatever: They break the law and you're responsible because they're underage and your the guardian.
*let me know if there are other options other than just legally emancipating them. Oh, and could you really do that?*"
Perrigaud---I'll give you a serious answer. It really depends on what else is wrong with the child. My daughter is bipolar. If she was off her meds my response would be entirely different from what I'd do if she was taking her meds.
If she was taking her meds, what I'd do would be to supervise her closely and cut privileges. You can't watch TV without mom's permission if the TV cabinet is locked with the plug inside.
New clothes matter to my daughter. I'd expect compliance to get them---but I'd expect it in small stages.
Part of the answer as a parent is you don't let it get that far. By the time a kid is doing all the stuff you're talking about, you've failed to control that kid for a long, long time.
You don't let it get that far.
Chores at our house are linked to concrete rewards. Our daughter gets an allowance. Each chore in it is concretely linked to a part of that allowance. If she doesn't do a particular chore, we make her go do it before we pay her.
We *do* spank, if we have to. My momma's motto of, "You're not too big to spank, you know." works for me. I can't remember the last time we actually had to spank---but she knows we will if we have to. So it's much easier to do her chore and go ahead and get her allowance. Even if we have to remind her.
She knows we don't give a flip if she *ever* gets to watch TV or play xbox again---so grounding from TV is *very* effective---especially as the TV may well be on, but it will be on something I want to watch (that, coincidentally, is either boring or somewhat interesting to her based on how much cooperation I'm getting---but it's totally unstated).
She gets *lots* of affection and approval and love for even small positive steps when she's in an oppositional mood. (I hate that term--so psychobabble--but it fits). Our daughter is bipolar---sometimes compliance isn't easy for her.
We give her a *lot* of freedom within limits. The rules are rarely if ever stupid rules, and *after* she does it I will almost always explain why it's important.
The key is that, as a parent, you *don't* let your kid "win" oppositional battles.
There's an old saying from the military, "Never give an order you *know* won't be obeyed."
If you don't allow oppositional behavior to win in the first place, but you *do* allow polite requests and reason to win, frequently, even if it's sometimes against your better judgement (and you explain why, in advance)---what you get is *occasional* fits of opposition to see if you still mean it, and frequent resort to calm reason.
Part of how I handle opposition, since my child is bipolar and her brain can get "stuck" in a groove, is I sit her down and discuss with her *why* she's so opposed to whatever it is. Then I discuss *why* I'm insisting on whatever it is. Then I try to come up with some third solution that meets my concerns while addressing hers.
This redirects the opposition into reasoning and negotiating behavior *and* doesn't let the oppositional behavior win---because the point I explain as vitally important gets taken care of, and the action on her part that gets rewarded is telling me *why* something bothers her and negotiating a workable solution---not opposition.
Sometimes I have to insist because we don't find a third way---but the *process* is so frequently beneficial for her that usually at that point I've got her far enough past opposition that I don't have to threaten (or don't have to threaten much) to get compliance.
Consequences are *proportional*---but once she gets oppositional, I understand as a parent that I can no longer afford not to win. That doesn't mean she has to lose, but *she* knows that my position is that I can't afford not to win at that point.
Now if she were to flat out refuse to take her medication, the first line response is, "You can take the pills here and have it be over with, or we can go to the ER for a shot and you can be grounded from TV and get a spanking. Which way would you rather do this?"
If I absolutely couldn't get compliance, and she got violent about going to the ER for her meds, then I would have to hospitalize her. Bipolars off our meds can be dangerous. Taking her meds is *not* optional (although I *will* work with her and with her doctor as much as possible to minimize side effects).
But she'd only be hospitalized until she was stable. And when *my* kid is stable, she's not violent or oppositional---she's a pretty nice person.
If she *couldn't* be stabilized on medication so that she wasn't violent or dangerous, then she could have to stay hospitalized.
That's always a risk for her. It's always a risk for *me*. But it's a *low* risk, because we're good medication responders.
The thing is, the situation you've listed still leaves the parents with several tools, presuming a generic kid that *doesn't* have a mental illness:
1) Approval
Giving a kid/teen *genuine* approval for small positive steps when the kid is being a pill works wonders.
2) Reassurance
"You're being a hell of a pill right now. I like you and I love you, but right now you're being a hell of a pill. Could you please stop it? No? Well, I still like you and love you, even though I wish like anything you were acting better."
3) Withdrawal of privileges
A lot of stuff in the parental household, from car keys to television to the computer to new clothes to favorite foods to the telephone can be cut off as a privilege, with concrete physical enforcement the teen can't get around.
4) Consistency and reason
A kid of any age responds better when the rules are consistent and rewards and punishments proportional, and the rules are explained.
5) Worst things first
When you're managing a difficult kid, it works best to extinguish the most dangerous or most hazardous one or two behaviors *first*, and only work on one or two big problems at a time.
6) Dale Carnegie
Read Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People." Use the strategies in it generously and genuinely. Kids can smell a fake a mile away.
7) Non-rescuing
If your kid does something illegal and gets arrested, wait a day or two before bailing him or her out of jail. Wait long enough for it to sink in that they screwed up and that this is real life, not a drill. Provide a lawyer so your kid gets due process---but don't get in the way of the real legal consequences for whatever your kid really did.
:cool: Acceptance of Reality
Teens are going to do things that turn their parents' hair white, and sometimes they don't survive adolescence. Compare what they're doing in proportion to what you did and other teens you knew did and accept a *realistic* level of risk, while doing your best to *reasonably* minimize risk. There *will* be a nonzero chance of any particular person you love getting killed in a car wreck any day they go out on the road. It's a higher chance for a teen. This is reality. Accept *reasonable* risk and don't try to wrap your kids in cotton wool.
In *my* case, either I or my kid could end up having to be *legitimately* committed. We both have bipolar disorder and it's a risk.
So I can't say "never"---and my husband coudn't say "never" on committing *me*.
I wouldn't commit my daughter for anything less than I would commit *me* for, if I could somehow be standing on the outside of myself and looking in.
The biggest problem I have with behavior mod programs is that *no* disciplinary system works without reason, consistency, and proportion.
Stockholm Syndrome and learned helplessness aren't very good substitutes for mature, independent judgement----which is what a reasoned, consistent, proportional system of persuasion, affection, rewards, and punishments nurtures in a child.
My beef with the programs is not so much that they exist---it's that so many of them are doing it *badly* and there aren't adequate external-to-the-program safeguards in place.
If my daughter was so stressed out being around me that *she* requested to be sent to a program to get a break from mom, and if they'd take her, we'd probably use Three Springs in Huntsville, AL.
*Voluntary* commitment is a whole 'nother kettle of fish from *involuntary* commitment.
As for our daughter doing something we'd be liable for, out of the blue when we're doing our best to use good parenting strategies, that's what homeowners' insurance is for.
Would I send my daughter away over sex? Not if she was using condoms. I *would* try to make sure she was stable and not hypersexual from the bp.
Would I send my daughter away over alcohol or other drugs? Not if it was casual use. I'd handle it by presenting the real and substantial risks of worsening her illness to her. If it was addiction, I'd try outpatient rehab and, if I felt it was necessary, try to persuade her to go to inpatient rehab.
I would make it impossible for her to safely keep drugs in my house by regularly searching the house and destroying such substances and discarding paraphernalia. She might do it, but she wouldn't do it or keep it under *my* roof. And if she got caught, she'd take the legal consequences after a fair trial or a fair plea bargain.
(In my daughter's case, again, the *first* thing would be making sure her meds were right and she was stable.)
Theft or vandalism I'd require her to confess and make restitution, or I'd turn her in and let her get a fair trial or plea bargain and take her lumps.
Violence, I'd involuntarily commit.
Domestic abuse by a boyfriend I'd first act to prevent by having her avoid dating whiners, and second act to stop by prosecution and/or restraining orders (again, checking to make sure her meds were right). I'd third act to eliminate by moving too far away for her to sneak out and get to him, and a restraining order to keep him from coming close enough to meet up with her. I'd pick us all up and move three states away before I'd involuntarily commit her over that, though.
Sorry this is so long, but you asked a complicated question, and I'm sure I *still* haven't addressed all the possibilities.
In essence, you almost seem to be trying to build a false alternative situation by, "But what if that didn't work" approach.
Therapists encounter "Yes, buts" a lot when they deal with a client that doesn't really want to change. Ninety-nine percent of the time, if you *try* the reasonable options, you get a situation that is enough improved that you can live with it.
The *other* one percent of the time, the situation degrades until it's *clearly* in the "dangerous to self or others" category.
The trick is that good parenting skills means knowing all your tools and how to use them.
If you as a parent have a good handle on your *own* head (and if you don't have one, you'd darned better get one), your tools are adequate.
The phrase, "A poor workman blames his tools." applies.
On the other hand, if your kid is genuinely seriously mentally ill and can't be stabilized, you do the same thing you'd do with an adult in the same situation.
Timoclea
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On 2005-01-04 05:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thier answer will be i'll do anything, but send them away. You won;t get any real responses because they would not know what to do. This one parent took a very big chance, as you and me know. They however will not believe it.
Again don't let these people get you mad perri.
You are a shining example of what good can come from some of these schools. Be proud!
Be very proud!! The one that cares"
Well, you were wrong, then, weren't you?
*I* posted a serious answer.
Timoclea
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Perrigaud---here's a *short* response, in case you didn't have time to read the long one.
The reason society holds parents liable for the behavior of their children is that parenting tools, the whole box of them together, *are* adequate to control a child's behavior and keep it within reasonable limits *unless* the child is so deranged that he/she is immediately dangerous to self or others.
In the latter case, you do just what you'd do for an adult---you commit the patient until he/she is stabilized.
I support the states with good outpatient commitment laws, and think those rules should apply to adults *or* minors. A patient that has a history of being *dangerous* off his meds should only be allowed to be outpatient on the condition that he continues taking his meds.
Timoclea
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There's a pattern here that you're failing to recognize. When the question was first asked, I answered. From that ONE IOTA of information that I posted "The one who kidnaps" felt fully qualified to make a statement that I was just lucky that my kid is making it without going to a program. Apparently he felt, from that small tidbit of info, that my kid would have benefitted from such a program.
Then we get the other one who wants THE answer to parenting. Don't you see???? There isn't an answer. YOU don't have it, PROGRAMS certainly don't have it, religion doesn't have it, [INSER SOCIAL AILMENT HERE]ANONYMOUS doesn't have it. PARENTS have it. They have all along. Again, it's about responsible, hands on, trustworthy, loving parenting. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION.
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Go perigaud Go!!!!
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Perri,
While I was being somewhat facetious in my suggestion that parents set up their own BM torture chamber at home, I would seriously like to hear how it would have been for you if your parents had kept you home and done everything the program did.
Kept you in a locked, controlled environment away from the outside world, friends, family, social life. Set arbitary and excessive rules, some with no basis in reality. Punished every slight infraction. No tv, phone, computer. Same redundant, bland, limited quantity of food at every meal. Forbide you to look up unless spoken to, or look at yourself in a mirror, or look out the window, or cross a threshold without permission. If they threatened to restrain you as punishment or require you to sit/lay staring at the wall for hours on end and for days or months at a time. Required you to listen to self-help tapes day-in-day-out and gave little consideration to your education. And, yada, yada. You know the programs methods.
What would prevent your parents from setting up such an environment at home? Might you do this for your own children or would you too, choose to send them away? If so, why?
Were you really capable of 'putting a knife to' another kids throat prior to the program? If so, was placement in a W facility really appropriate? Are they equiped to deal with that level of anger/violence? Do they keep violent kids away from the generic population?
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On 2005-01-04 05:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thier answer will be i'll do anything, but send them away. You won;t get any real responses because they would not know what to do. This one parent took a very big chance, as you and me know. They however will not believe it.
Again don't let these people get you mad perri.
You are a shining example of what good can come from some of these schools. Be proud!
Be very proud!! The one that cares"
No, you're wrong. I haven't had time to catch up on this thread and make a good answer. But I have been in the same situation as the other parent. My daughter was completely out of (my) control. And we did try damned near everything to reel her in before she finally moved out of our house. At that time, her boyfriend was facing agrivated assault charges and she had been an eye wittness to the crime. He was trying to talk her into emancipating herself. We looked up the process, told her what she would have to do and agreed to do our part if she really wanted it. We also told her that we didn't want to do this because being a legal adult might make her a more attractive target for the prosecution. (the boyfriend was involved in a LOT of criminal activity)
Thankfully, she dropped it. Yes, I lost a LOT of sleep worrying about her wellbeing as well as the fall-out that might come back on the rest of the family. But the alternative was no safer for any of us. The primary difference between what she was doing to herself and what a program would do is that the minute she decided to get out of the situation, she could. Instead of changing the locks and withholding our support and affection, I paid for her dental care when she was so bold as to sneak out of the house (litterally!) to go to the dentist. Same thing when she wanted to get her GED. Psycho Boy did his usual song and dance. He promised her a ride then picked a fight the night before, kept her up all night crying, etc. So when she called for a ride, I was there for her.
And when she was finally ready to leave the whole crazy situation, she had a bus ticket waiting for her and a couple of uncles ready to go pick her up.
So now my daughter is 20 years old. She might have been in college by now, except that she has gotten ill. And here's a case where I can be pretty damned sure that, had she been in a program when she got sick, she'd be dead right now. Her only symptoms were a stomach ache that wouldn't go away and vomiting. No way in hell would you fuckers have believed that she was actually in need of emergency medical care had she been in a Program. No chance that she would have been evaluated and brought into surgery within the few hours she had left before her bowel would have exploded.
Now, despite having been extremely ill and having had 5 major surgeries in the past year, she has retained her job so that she can go back to work as soon as her doctors approve and she's gotten a car and started the process of picking up her education where she left off. Not only is she not deadinsaneorinjail, she's actually quite an impressive young woman. I'm very proud.
We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.
-- Ben Franklin At the signing of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776.
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But Antigen, don't you understand?? You were just LUCKY!! It had nothing to do with you taking responsibility as a parent or with your daughter taking responsibility for her life. :roll: :lol: Glad she's doing better physically. I know you guys went through quite a bit.
When my daughter read that statement about it being 'luck' that she's not dead or in jail, she really kind of took offense to that. She's worked hard to pull herself out of the hole she dug herself into. To chalk that all up to luck is really tantamount to saying she had nothing to do with it. Responsibility folks...personal responsibility. On the part of both parent and child.
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HI Ginger.
So sorry to hear your daughter has been through to much lately. Glad to read she is on the mend.
You have every right to feel proud of her - and your right -
Had she been in the care of many programs, she would have died.
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Thanks, y'all.
Fear believes--courage doubts. Fear falls up the earth and prays--- courage stands erect and thinks. Fear is barbarism---courage is civilization. Fear believes in witchcraft, devils and ghosts. Fear is religion, courage is science.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
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I am aware there are many different methods of parenting. Hence the reason I asked the question to everyone. So far so good. Thanks for all of your input. Life is a journey in which everyone goes through different stages and specifically; events. I never was looking for a specific answer.
**************************************************Yes I was that angry. However nowadays I wouldn't even dream of doing the things that I did when I was younger.
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On 2005-01-03 02:13:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"I'm curious as to what all those avid anti-program people would do if their kid was severly out of control? This means that grounding wouldn't work, they already had a record, drugs were used, physical abuse was administered by them, and you had raised them the best you could."
I'd play stupid, like I didn't think that what they were doing was harmful. I'd pretend that I didn't have enough money to get them real help and tell people how bad I think programs are - I'd tell other parents about sites like this and have them read about other people that feel the way I do, that programs are for gullible, brainwashable idiots. After all, I did the best I could because I'm perfect! :tup:
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That's a shitty response. I edited my initial question so it's up to anyone really. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-07 23:07 ]
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On 2005-01-03 02:13:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"I'm curious as to what would anyone do if their kid was severly out of control? This means that grounding wouldn't work, they already had a record, drugs were used, physical abuse was administered by them, and you had raised them the best you could.[ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-07 23:06 ]"
Possible responses:
1. Take them to a medical professional. It sounds like they have a psychiatric issue. I would also get myself screened as it might be genetic and it would help if both me and my kid were treated.
2. If they were really hurting me with their physical abuse, I would fix the living situation so that they were not living with me.
3. I would sit down and let them talk about what it was that was making them so unhappy, and then help them to put some plans together for their future.
4. I almost forgot: I would ask them if anyone in their life was abusing them, and suggest that even if they could not tell me that they please tell someone. I think a lot of kids give up on the world out of disillusionment.
5. If grounding did not work I would not use it. Sometimes kids just want to be treated like adults. To that end, I might find them a boarding school that was more like college. They are probably ready to be away from me. This would be a school in the regular sense of the word.
Not possible responses:
1. I would not send them to a so-called treatment facility that in any way resembled a controlling cult.
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On 2005-01-07 23:05:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"That's a shitty response. I edited my initial question so it's up to anyone really.
You really are a good kid, Perrigaud. (and by "kid" I generally mean someone under 30 or so... I'm ooooolllllddd!)
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much
liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
--Thomas Jefferson, 1791, in a letter to Archibald Stuart
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Are you being facetious again? You're right as far as my age goes. I'm only 21. Got a lot of learning and experience headed my way. Age to me means little. It's all about experience and knowledge. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-08 16:47 ]
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On 2005-01-04 04:59:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"I still haven't gotten any good responses to my original question. What would you do if you tried:
1. Grounding your kid and they just don't abide.
2. Taking their car away: they sneak out or walk
3. Therapy: they lie, refuse to talk, or such.
4. Giving the Chores: They flat out tell you to go to hell.
5. Letting them do whatever: They break the law and you're responsible because they're underage and your the guardian.
*let me know if there are other options other than just legally emancipating them. Oh, and could you really do that?*"
If I were to PERSONALLY respond to these misdeeds as the program did, my household would look a little bit like this:
1. I would have to install a special needs area, so if my child misbehaves continuously, I can lock them in there for 72 hours and only feed them a handful of food per day, and not allow any showers. I'll escort them to a portapotty I have installed out back when they have to go to the bathroom. No shoes, and only one layer of clothing!
2. When my child gets out of special needs, I need a secondary form of punishment. I know! I'll build a worksheets room! I'll use wood to build a box my child can sit in for 18 hours a day, writing the same damn sentence over and over. A few days of this, and they will never repeat that darn bad behavior again!
3. Now that they know I mean business, it's time to get his friends in on this. Let's pit them all against each other and watch the fireworks begin!
4. Better we homeschool him. A simple desk and book will do, it's not like we want to challenge his intellect! Let's make him feel smart, yeah, that will work good. 5 days a week of sitting at that desk reading and writing is much better than normal school!
5. We can't have any serious change to his psyche without some serious behavior modification training! Lets change our garage into a seminar room! We can hang posters all over the walls, and run around screaming for 3 days straight. If we deprive him of sleep it will be much easier to get him to break.
6. Of course I will have to install locks on all the doors, and remove his shoelaces to prevent him from running, that's just common sense!
Well, that should work. Granted, I would like to have total isolation from the outside world, so I should probably move to the forest so nobody bothers me and he doesn't think of running. Maybe I'll hire a couple of retarded locals, big fat ones, that can sit on him until he complies. Yeah... my teen will be so thankful in the future, I kept them from being deadinsaneorinjail! Hoorah for me, I'm a wonderful parent.
The reason parents send their kids away is because they can't legally do what the programs do to kids. They'd be put in jail, or possibly a psychiatric facility.
But sure, keep on defending the program...
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Don't worry I will. :rofl:
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That's the problem! All these anti program people just want to complain. They have no alternatives to offer parents that have done all they can, therapy, outpatient, couseling, groundings, restrictions, talking, on and on. Maybe all these guys should start a program and run it the way they think that would really help the kids and their parents. Obviously, there's good money in it! If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Perri, you're the best. Smart "kid" !
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Yeah, there are other options.
First and foremost, recognize that the way we've set up the law and practical policy wrt juvenile justice is messed up. It pits parents against their own children. Basically, it doesn't matter so much how you feel as a parent about any particular behavior. You MUST enforce the law or take the consequences. You have to play cop/detective in order to save your own skin. That's just plain wrong. It's not the kids' fault and it's not your fault. But if you play along and pretend that everything is your kids' fault, don't be surprised if they resent you for it.
If your kid refuses to go to school, maybe there's some good reason. Or maybe not. Maybe the grass just looks greener on the other side of the fence. Public school is a messed up culture in most districts. So check out other options.
Registering the kid as homeschooled or duel enrolement is not a bad option, so long as the kid is willing to do something with it. Sometimes it's just a matter of letting the kid realize that there are other opitions and the practical side of pursuing them. If they're going to test out and take courses at the local community college, for example, that will require transportation and a part time job to support the transportation. Some kids are motivated enough to do that. Others might just conclude that highschool isn't all that bad after all.
But one thing is for sure; once a kid decides they're all grown and don't have to take directives from their parents any more, there's no turning back. You can either try to be supportive and understanding as they test their wings or you can clip their wings and strong arm them into compliance. But you can't do that w/o risking seirous damage.
If you ask the Government for the right to assemble you deserve to be told no .
--Jim Lesczynski, Manhattan LP chair, on "unorganized" gathering @ Central Park
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On 2005-04-09 11:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That's the problem! All these anti program people just want to complain. They have no alternatives to offer parents that have done all they can, therapy, outpatient, couseling, groundings, restrictions, talking, on and on. Maybe all these guys should start a program and run it the way they think that would really help the kids and their parents. Obviously, there's good money in it! If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Perri, you're the best. Smart "kid" !"
AHahahahahahaha, lmao ! :lol:
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"But one thing is for sure; once a kid decides they're all grown and don't have to take directives from their parents any more, there's no turning back. You can either try to be supportive and understanding as they test their wings or you can clip their wings and strong arm them into compliance. But you can't do that w/o risking seirous damage."
problem with that is that it isn't LEGAL! Kid screws up, has wreck while drinking, parent is sued. Kid doesn't go to school, parent goes gets fined or goes to jail! Kid destroys home and property, parent can't kick them out if they are under 17. The law is set up so that a kid can do whatever they want until they are 18 and the parent pays all the consequences. If there are other children at home, the parents have to protect the younger children still at home. Come up with an alternative or just advice parents to do lots of checking into and investigating prior to sending. Sometimes, there are no alternatives. The "serious damage" may be being done by the rebellious teenager!
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On 2005-04-09 11:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That's the problem! All these anti program people just want to complain. They have no alternatives to offer parents that have done all they can, therapy, outpatient, couseling, groundings, restrictions, talking, on and on. Maybe all these guys should start a program and run it the way they think that would really help the kids and their parents. Obviously, there's good money in it! If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Perri, you're the best. Smart "kid" !"
Is it that surprising people who experienced the program and considered it a negative experience, suggest NOT sending your child to a program? I love how program parents love to talk about accountability, and blaming oneself for problems. Maybe it's time to take accountability for the way you raised your child, help them yourself, and not pass responsibility to a bunch of unqualified mind engineers. Just a thought.
I love how you quote seminar BS, priceless.
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On 2005-04-09 11:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
""But one thing is for sure; once a kid decides they're all grown and don't have to take directives from their parents any more, there's no turning back. You can either try to be supportive and understanding as they test their wings or you can clip their wings and strong arm them into compliance. But you can't do that w/o risking seirous damage."
problem with that is that it isn't LEGAL! Kid screws up, has wreck while drinking, parent is sued. Kid doesn't go to school, parent goes gets fined or goes to jail! Kid destroys home and property, parent can't kick them out if they are under 17. The law is set up so that a kid can do whatever they want until they are 18 and the parent pays all the consequences. If there are other children at home, the parents have to protect the younger children still at home. Come up with an alternative or just advice parents to do lots of checking into and investigating prior to sending. Sometimes, there are no alternatives. The "serious damage" may be being done by the rebellious teenager!
"
I agree, send them away until they are no longer a financial liability. Damn kids.
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On 2005-04-09 11:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
problem with that is that it isn't LEGAL!
Right. Did the kids make these laws? No, they did not. And did the kids set up the new policies that treat innocent flirting or tough talk as serious crime and/or pathology? No, they didn't do that either. Make no mistake about it. Kids ta' day may have more toys, and more freedom in some ways. But they're under immensely more pressure from the authorities than we were. So when they get angy, don't want to play along, can't see the point of it all, is it really dysfunction in the kid? Or is that just a natural, healthy response to a messed up situation?
But when forced to choose between defending and supporting our own kids and towing the party line against them, too many parents wimp out. "The law requires that I turn him in for ______". "Chust doink your chob"?
Butch up! Parenthood never was for wimps. These days, that goes double. We're the grown ups. It's up to us to change the bad laws and policies.
Ministers say that they teach charity. That is natural. They live on hand-outs. All beggars teach that others should give.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
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Excuse me, but a financial burden? Give me a break! Have you never heard about how much those schools cost? Most families have to take out a second mortgage! And change the laws. Besides voting, how do you see that happening. Until then you just sit back do nothing, let your rebellious kid threaten and destroy what you do have and terrify your other children? Isn't it abusive to the other kids not to protect them?
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Yeah. Think you could've controlled me? Think I would've listened to you? The only other option was letting me emancipate myself. Bad idea. Very slim to none chance that would happen.
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Has anyone ever considered just a normal, regular boarding school?
I spent a year and a half at Provo Canyon School, then was allowed to go to a regular boarding school. There were one or two boarding schools that didn't offer me admission, but most of them were OK with the PCS thing. I think my therapist (who was the only liscensed professional to work with me there) must have told them that I was not actually as messed up as my parents thought I was.
Really, that is where I should have gone from the beginning, as living at home with my parents was hell.
So I would suggest a parent to is to talk with the kid about boarding school, speak to them AS THOUGH THEY WERE AN ADULT! because the kid will appreciate that and then take the conversation more seriously.
Offer the kid the chance to go to boarding school, allow them to research the schools themself, if they would like to, or suggest a few, and allow the child the opportunity to choose one him/herself.
Reason with the kid that they should at least finish high school. Boarding schools offer many activities that are not available at regular schools (horse-back riding, skiing, ect).
I found that at boarding school, the teachers and staff treat kids with a lot more respect than public schools do. A kid who has a problem with authority will respond to that better than they would some public school teacher or administrater scolding and yelling at them.
Though some kids may not be open to this, some may get in trouble once they get there, but it is for sure worth a shot, and should DEFINATELY, ALWAYS BE TRIED BEFORE "BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION" SCHOOLS AND THE LIKE ARE EVEN CONSIDERED!
Megan
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Also, most boarding schools offer financial aid, scholarships, ect... and cost less than most RTC anyway.
Megan
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And... most boarding schools will allow a child to see a therapist, or psychiatrist, whatever, either inside the school or out.
There are a lot of wealthy kids from dysfunctinal families at boarding school, and seeing a shrink is very much "du rigeur" (poor spelling?) and a sort of a rite of passage.
Megan
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On 2005-04-09 11:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
""But one thing is for sure; once a kid decides they're all grown and don't have to take directives from their parents any more, there's no turning back. You can either try to be supportive and understanding as they test their wings or you can clip their wings and strong arm them into compliance. But you can't do that w/o risking seirous damage."
problem with that is that it isn't LEGAL! Kid screws up, has wreck while drinking, parent is sued. Kid doesn't go to school, parent goes gets fined or goes to jail! Kid destroys home and property, parent can't kick them out if they are under 17. The law is set up so that a kid can do whatever they want until they are 18 and the parent pays all the consequences. If there are other children at home, the parents have to protect the younger children still at home. Come up with an alternative or just advice parents to do lots of checking into and investigating prior to sending. Sometimes, there are no alternatives. The "serious damage" may be being done by the rebellious teenager!
"
Um...hello? One--if the kid is refusing school, you need to find out why. Usually something's wrong. Homeschool, private school, boarding school, virtual school, alternative school, homebound tutoring programs---there are a lot of options. If you've tried them all, the parents *can* report the kid to social services as an incorrigible truant and the family court system will deal with it without further legal liability to the parents. If you *are* trying and you *do* report the kid after you've tried everything else, they do *not* arrest or fine the parent.
Your child cannot drive a care without the car keys unless he knows how to hotwire the thing. There are such things as safes--good ones, with real combination locks (not the little dinky school-locker locks). There is no excuse for a child having the car keys to a car owned by the parents without the parents' consent. If the child steals a car, hotwired or otherwise, you turn him in to the police. If he is in juvie, he is no longer stealing cars. Juvie is less bad than just about all these programs.
If your kid *knows* you will call the police on him if he steals a car or is a habitual truant, for *most* kids that makes them much less likely to do that. For the kids it doesn't make less likely, maybe juvie will be a learning experience---it's certainly a safer one than many of the programs.
If your kid is doing this stuff because there's something psychiatrically wrong, you treat the problem. Sometimes, if the kid is immediately dangerous to self or others and can't be stabilized with a short hospitalization stay (it happens), then a *good* RTC can be the only responsible choice. But that's the *same* criteria we use for involuntarily committing adults.
As far as destroying the house, or stuff in it, if the kid is throwing violent, physically destructive rages on an ongoing basis, that's not normal, that's dangerous. One of three possibilities: 1. kid is mentally ill, 2. kid is criminal, 3. kid is severely unhappy with parents/family based on some kind of normal reaction to an intense mutual conflict. If 1., hospitalize and stabilize kid. If 2., report kid to police and social services and press charges. If 3., find relative for kid to live with *or* emancipate kid *or* relinquish custody to social services *or* send kid to conventional boarding school.
You can't *kick* an under-17 kid out, but you can, depending on the law where you are, *let* them out---you can assist them to move out and get a job, and become financially independent of you, and emancipate. This is a good option if there's nothing wrong with the kid except that he hates you for whatever reason.
If a "problem" kid won't home or alternative school, won't emancipate, isn't mentally ill in a way you could treat and stabilize with meds, and is having rages destroying expensive or highly sentimental property, and there are no relatives that will take him---then I have a lot more sympathy when a parent chooses the safest boarding school they can find---lockdown if the kid can't manage not to get expelled from conventional boarding schools.
This is *rarely* the case. You have kids who cut but aren't habitual truants, who get suspended or expelled but are still accepted in and mostly attending *some* kind of school but maybe making lousy grades. You have kids who are having sex and using various drugs. You have kids who have run away a couple of times but come back. You have kids who will steal the family car if the parents are stone stupid enough to leave the keys lying around. You have kids that lose their temper and put a fist through the wall or a dent in the car. You have younger children that you really don't want taking your older kid as an example of what to do.
Mostly some variant of those, usually not all of the above, are what's going on with kids that get sent off.
Those are all awful, but manageable with normal parenting strategies. Will normal parenting strategies stop the problem shy of the kid turning 18, moving out, and growing up? No, not usually.
Will normal Mom-Fu *manage* these problems long enough for the kid to grow up? Almost always.
You think you have it tough? Go over to CABF and see what parents of bipolar children routinely go through managing seriously mentally ill kids whose medication needs change with their body mass, and the seasons, and who have to be put through trial and error through a lot of meds to find out what works, and have to go off some and on others as side effects develop.
You haven't *seen* tough, you don't *know* tough until you've lived through a full scale bipolar rage. FOUR to FIVE HOURS of full-on out of control rage.
You think you've dealt with school alternatives? Go read the "Educational Issues" message board. I'll lay odds you haven't even scratched the surface of educational alternatives.
I have a friend who was a special ed teacher, and who was the daughter of a special ed teacher. They dealt with profoundly disabled children. They dealt with the parents who were bearing up under the load of raising their profoundly disabled children.
My friend's mom's favorite comment when "normal" people started whining about how difficult their lives were, "You people have no excuse."
Maybe you do have a child that is immediately dangerous to self or others and has been through 7 or 8 short term hospitalizations without being stabilized---in which case when we're talking about avoiding programs, NONE of us are talking about you.
*MOST* parents who talk about "having no choice," most of the ones I've personally encountered, anyway, are blowing smoke.
Yes, sometimes you have no choice but to involuntarily commit a relative.
The situations in which you genuinely have no choice but to commit your teenage son or daughter very closely resemble the situations in which you could legally get a judge to order the involuntary commitment of your thirty-something son or daughter.
And, of course, tossing aside "status offenses," criminal misbehavior is criminal misbehavior, and we have the police and the courts to deal with that. If that's the problem and it's not nitpicky technical BS, then you don't resort to a private prison that treats your kin worse than the government prisons. You go ahead and make use of the police and courts, that's what they're there for.
You, personally, may not be bitching about "no choice" when your kid is so much less bad than the mentally ill kids whose parents I talk to every day that they would give their eye teeth to have a day that good with your child---you, personally, may not be bitching when you should be down on your knees thankful that your kid is basically healthy.
But I've seen it way too often to take parents word for it when they start talking about "no choice."
I know there are cases where there really is no choice.
But I've seen enough to ask some hard questions before I believe it when I get down to talking about specific parents and specific kids.
Timoclea
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Thanks T, then you aren't talking to me. Our children are all adopted, with varying degrees of baggage, physical, mental, and emotional. We never expected it to be easy or normal! Our kids are our kids because their biologicals prefered drugs and alchol to their children. The one that causes the most destruction is the healthiest and comes from the least abusive background, but was much older at adoption. We've done all the alternative school things, counselors, therapists, hospital stays...We've contacted police, social services and attorneys to see what options are available to get him help and to protect our family. At 16, there really are no options except these type schools. And yes, I am on my knees daily thanking God for the health of my family. I certainly know that there are others in much worse situations. I just really want to find help for a very troubled young man that is loved deeply, but refuses to believe it.
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If you place your kid in one of these places you are almost guaranteed to get back a more fucked up version of what you sent in...
Your kid doesn't need to be humiliated, denigrated, abused, belittled, starved, beaten, neglected, mind-fucked, alienated, disempowered, berated and/or otherwise dehumanized, does he?
If the answer is "no," then you should not even be CONSIDERING children's prison for him.
Buck up, get tough, and set to work on bettering your child's life yourself - there is nobody who will do it for you.
You can't abdicate responsibility and hand this kid over to some strangers and reasonably expect that they will "fix" him, do you?
No, of course you can't. SO DON'T DO IT.
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You know what the sad thing for me is. My dgt's father and new wife. Use cocaine, pot, alcohol hell he's been using since high School he's 50. Maybe he's trying to send a message to his dgt. (not)just out of sight out of mind. He has the money to try and have someone else fix his problems. He wasn't going to go to the Seminars because he already knew what to expect. So I don't know how he was going to get away with at least not going to the Discovery one.It's nothing for them to see the pot tray laying around in their bathroom. It's hard decisions anyway you look at it. Prayer is the only thing that keeps me sane these days.
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Have you considered some form of Martial Arts?
My son was very angry, but ironically due to having spent 6 months IN an abusive program. I called every therapist in the book looking for an anger management class for teens. There were plenty for adults, not for teens. There was one available through the county, but he would have to have committed a crime and be court ordered.
Ho hum....
I know it's not easy, I have been there.
But, sometimes a physical activity can help. It burns off some of the stored adrenelin/cortisol and can be very therapeutic.
How about Karate or kick boxing or some contact sport she might be able to play through the Y. I know it's harder to get them into organized sports in public school, after a certain age, due to competitiveness. But, perhaps you could find something in your community.
Anything physical to release the pent up anger/frustration... and ultimately sadness.
Any other extra cirricular activity that she might be interested in that could help boost self-esteem? Like night classes at a school of cosmotology? Art classes? Music? Dance- another good release. A 'real' job frequently boost self esteem.
What are her interests? Find out and support her 150% in persuing that interest. It will be well worth the time, money and effort. The money will be better spent on these things than a program. I personally might go so far as to require her to pick an activity, BUT an activity of her choice. And don't expect her to stick with 'one' thing. She may not know what she wants/likes. Let her move around and have a broad experience of many options until she finds something that really lights her fire again.
I really believe that most teens go off track because they feel they have no real role/place in society. They aren't taken seriously, are minimized, and basically invisible. Contradict that societal message.
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Juvie is less bad than just about all these programs.
......maybe juvie will be a learning experience---it's certainly a safer one than many of the programs.
Check this out, especially the linked consultant's report. Juvie is pretty bad, too, sometimes.
http://www.dispatch.com/reports-story.p ... rison.html (http://www.dispatch.com/reports-story.php?story=dispatch/news/special/abuseinprison/abuseinprison.html)
Sex abuse in Ohio's youth prisons
Problems continue behind bars
Jan. 14, 2005
Five more guards indicted in probe of prison abuse
Dec. 1, 2004
Youth Services chief fired
Governor seeks new leadership to reform juvenile prison system sullied by
abuses
Nov. 17, 2004
Scioto Juvenile Correctional Facility: Chief in charge of reforming prison
resigns
Oct. 27, 2004
Consultant rips Youth Services
Agency hasn't fixed girls prison, he says
See also: Complete contents of letter (Adobe PDF)
Sept. 4, 2004
Prison for girls scolded in report
Abuses cited at facility in Delaware County
See also: Key findings;Full report from consultant (2.5 MB file; may take
some time to download)
Aug. 18, 2004
Director says cuts worsened problems
Loss of $114 million blamed in inmate abuse, overcrowding
Aug. 14, 2004
Director proposes extensive overhaul
See also: Overhauling youth prisons
Aug. 4, 2004
State public defender offers help in centers
Aug. 1, 2004
Social workers often not licensed
Analysis shows 74 percent of Youth Services workers are not fully
credentialed
Graphic: Licensing of social workers
July 31, 2004
Adult-prison workers at juvenile centers criticize
July 30, 2004
Abuses alleged at prison for girls
Some policies, personnel already changed after 2 probes at Delaware County
facility
July 22, 2004
Juvenile prison officials seek help
July 18, 2004
Sex abuse continues
Juvenile offenders often locked in rooms together
Graphic: Children who rape and molest
Graphic: Ohio's youth delinquents
Counselors lack training and state licenses
Critics: Inmates need better treatment to avoid ending up in worse shape
Workers evade charges despite sex allegations