Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: water angel on January 03, 2005, 01:00:00 AM
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ANY INFORMATION PLEASE CONTACT ME. CRAIG ROGERS IS HIDDING AND THE LAW IS LOOKING FOR HIM IN MEXICO.
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I am really puzzled by this.
Judging from the posts that come up when searching out 'posts by water angel', you must be Paige or Amanda? [also might be Ryan from the looks of things; same questions apply]
Am I wrong? Its just kind of odd.
And even more so, if it is Paige or Amanda [or Ryan]- B/C both know about Mx asking ALA to leave; and that AlA complied.
If there is any kind of further investigating going on, one would think it would have been mentioned in the papers; either then or since then. Did I miss something? I find That hard to believe; as I was hit with a flurry of mail when the action was first reported.
So, I wonder - What makes you think, and post on Fornits, that MX is looking for Craig?
And, how exactly is anyone supposed to Contact you? Don't you think if you want to be contacted you need to post an email address, phone number or PO box or something?
Any reason you choise not to do so; or was it just an oversight?
:???:
[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-01-03 07:50 ]
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Buzz,
Are you saying that ALA has no kids in Mx now?
Anyone can contact WA with a private message here. That's a good way to begin dialogue until some trust is developed, rather than posting your private info publicly.
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HI Deb.
*As far as I know*, ALA is no longer in MX, so the answer to your question would be Yes, there are no ALA kids in MX *as far as I know*.
I am not on the recieving end of up to the minute details. But I honestly don't think they are in MX since they were asked to leave.
I didn't think about the Private messaging - Of corse that will work if they have registered.
I have found it annoying trying to scroll threw the reams of names to get to the one I want; and on a few occassions, Pmd the wrong party b/c I didn't realize it had loaded up the wrong name - so - I kinda forgot about using it - but your right - that can work.
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:exclaim:
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Bad guess, Buzzkill. I know you're trying hard to believe that there are only one or two people who could possibly dissagree w/ your assessment of the Program. But the hits just keep ooooon comin, and from various sources.
BTW, how exactly do you go about assuring parents that their kids are OK if you don't even know for sure what country they're in? I'm sure you wouldn't just.... like, make shit up, right? :roll: Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-- F. P. Jones
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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Hi Ginger -
No doubt you know more than I do - but what I was judging by was the posts the board gave me when asking for the posts by water angel. It was hard to say for sure, cause the board wants to scroll through the thread when I open the post. Ghost in the machene, I guess. I saw water angle had posted a few times and wondered what they had said. I didn't recall the name. When it seemed to be, who it seemd to be, I was further puzzled; b/c they would know about ALA and MX.
Anyway - I wasn't guessing out of the blue.
The last question confirms for me pot is pokin' holes in your memory. :smokin: We'd been over this before. Couple of times, at least.
I do not assure anyone of anything; and when I was taking calls from the parents, it was mostly as a sounding board. It was just for a little while and was simply me helping out.
I really do not get day by day accounts of what and who is where; b/c I have no need to know. I occassionaly get an email from one friend or another, updating me on current events; but only in a casual, general way - the way you might update any frined as to current events.
So, I don't think they are in MX - but this could change, and it might be quite awhile before I'd know it.
I am puzzled by Water Angel's comment MX is looking for Craig. I find that unlikely. Can't help but wonder who they are and why they think so.
I have actually wondered if its you (often times wondered) Just for shits and giggles as you say. Just wondered. . . Not making a proclamation.
Water Angel - Water - as in Water Pipe maybe; Angel - just look at your Icon :smile:
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ok, I don´t want to make noise here, I was looking for some information because this is a serious situation, We are talking about kids. I was in ALA and I know toooooo much but I need more information. Craig was very irresponsable when he refused to be legal at the country (MX): migration, taxes (Hacienda), social security for employees... And It's too sad that the parents are giving him their kids! I'm in Mexico and my english is too bad, sorry but the authorities are doing their work... :tup:
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OK, So you were in ALA. Staff, I'm guessing, if your Mexican and have Language issues? Maybe even Josue'?
Dosen't matter.
Look, Craig is not hard to contact or find. If you were in ALA, in any respect, then you have his contact info. He is easily reached. He is in no way hard to find.
I think he would dispute your comments, and I know he isn't worried about MX looking for him.
I think you are just getting your jollies on Fornits; and are yourself being irresponsable.
If this IS Josue', then you have my contact info; and Nate's. Write me. We'll 'chat'.
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I am an attorney and am looking into places for my son. ALA seems to be a good choice. BTW, there is a facility in this country too! Even Fornits, that bashes all programs, can't come up with much except that they once ran out of toilet paper. That has happened in my own home once or twice. Oh, and to the family of Amanda, (if you even read this, which I am not sure because I don't see any posts from you.) There does seem to be enough evidence on this sight for legal action against Paige. If for nothing else, interference with child custody and even slander. If you need an attorney, the folks at ALA will know how to get a hold of me. I would not want to even private message on this forum. From what I have read, it is not so private. However, I want to thank this forum for making me re-think sending my child to Provo or any of the WWASP facilities. And to the previous poster, you are right. Craig is quite availabe and easy to find. He is not hard to reach at all.
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On 2005-01-04 09:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am an attorney and am looking into places for my son.
If you need an attorney, the folks at ALA will know how to get a hold of me.
If you're just "looking into places", then how is it that ALA knows how to get ahold of you for legal advice??
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I left my info with ALA because I have been corresponding with them regarding my son. After reading the stuff here, I thought maybe those parents might want to talk. But again I doubt they will ever even know of my offer, unless maybe someone here or ALA contacts them for me.
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On 2005-01-04 09:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am an attorney and am looking into places for my son. ALA seems to be a good choice. BTW, there is a facility in this country too! Even Fornits, that bashes all programs, can't come up with much except that they once ran out of toilet paper. That has happened in my own home once or twice. Oh, and to the family of Amanda, (if you even read this, which I am not sure because I don't see any posts from you.) There does seem to be enough evidence on this sight for legal action against Paige. If for nothing else, interference with child custody and even slander. If you need an attorney, the folks at ALA will know how to get a hold of me. I would not want to even private message on this forum. From what I have read, it is not so private. However, I want to thank this forum for making me re-think sending my child to Provo or any of the WWASP facilities. And to the previous poster, you are right. Craig is quite availabe and easy to find. He is not hard to reach at all."
1. Having a case is an entirely different matter from winning it or collecting.
2. You cannot know whether or not they have a case for slander because you do not know whether any unpleasant things said about the people driving this particular metaphorical ambulance are true or not. It could well be that the "family of Amanda" has very good reasons *not* to go there. If Paige has consulted legal counsel who has actually been retained and actually has hard evidence regarding the various facts of the case, it could well be that *her* lawyer has excellent reason to feel confident---and that the adoptive parents' counsel has told them it would probably be better *not* to pursue the matter. You've seen the tip of the iceberg on Fornits. You cannot know what that particular 'berg looks like below the water line.
3. If it *did* get to court, and Paige can *document* Amanda's initial educational deficits and substantial progress since then and Amanda is thriving and states in open court that she is where she wants and wanted to be, judges are human beings. What kind of judgement would any halfway sensible person expect to get out of that situation *even if* he "won" his case?
I'm not a lawyer, this is not specific legal advice, see your own lawyer.
But the fact is, Paige *has* seen her own lawyer, and doesn't think there's a lot of reason for her to be worried.
When the other guy is confident, it's a fool's play to simply *assume* he's bluffing---he might *not* be.
Do you even know which states the parties live in?
*What if* the facts of the case are actually that a minor who was getting a gravely substandard education essentially ran away with another adult so she could get enrolled in the local public school and get a *better* education? And *what if* she's thriving educationally and Paige can *document* the improvement?
Sometimes, even when you "win" in court, you lose.
Now, maybe you're right and Amanda's adoptive parents would find an attorney to take the case on contingency and win in court and win a judgement that would be substantial in excess of attorney's fees and opportunity cost from the other ways they could spend the time they'd spend in court.
And maybe they'd even be able to collect on that judgement.
Sure, maybe you're right.
And maybe even if they have a "case" they have a real good reason for not pursuing it.
Timoclea
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On 2005-01-04 09:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
I am an attorney and am looking into places for my son. ALA seems to be a good choice. BTW, there is a facility in this country too! Even Fornits, that bashes all programs, can't come up with much except that they once ran out of toilet paper.
You're right. Having absolutely no firsthand experience w/ ALA, I can't provide you w/ any information. Some of the kids and parents who were involved w/ them fairly recently have provided some helpful information and insights into what kind of organization they are. And there has been some journalistic treatment as well. Just look.
But the absolute most valuable information about ALA has come directly from Craige Rogers himself. Here, read this thread:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=4819&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=4819&forum=9)
I know it's very long and somewhat redundant. But I think it's probably worth the time and trouble in order to help determine whether or not you should trust this man w/ your son's safety and care. Personally, I think the guy's quite unstable. I wouldn't want him anywhere near any of my kids, far less in control of them behind closed doors. But that's just me.
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.
--James Madison, U.S. President
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I hope you do go read that. It's absolutely frightening.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 9&start=80 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=&mode=viewtopic&topic=4819&forum=9&start=80)
Thank you! Your response was exactly what I was looking for. It is amazing, you guys are like my little puppets. I pull a string and you dance the dance I want. I was having a blast before I realized how disrespectful I have been. I am truly sorry for taking advantage of you, for taunting you with truth and love. I know that you cant take it but I gave it to you anyway. I am a bad boy.
I feel bad that I have acted underhandedly. Dealing with you guys is like dealing with a small child (like taking candy from a baby). I felt like I had to coax you to reveal your true nature because you are so used to lying and hiding behind forums that you have forgotten exactly how scared and feeble your really are.
When I wrote that piece on Abundant Life Academy I knew that no matter what I say you are going to hate me and the things I stand for. I was hoping that your responses would descredit you, and they did. So, I had to bait you into a trap and you fell for it. It is kind of funny, and kind of sad at the same time. It is so funny how you can be so easily teased into showing your true hatred, and sad because you have to live with yourself every day. I can go away and never have to deal with you again, but you still have to deal with yourself everyday.
I feel bad because I have been having so much fun playing and toying with you at your expense. The power I have over you, to get you to dance around like fools is almost intoxicating. I am ashamed at my behavior. Last week I had no idea that I was going to upset so many people and have fun doing it.
However, I have discovered that it is not a good thing to play around with people who are so damaged. For that I now feel bad. It was cruel to tease people who cant help themselves, and who are crying out for support. I should have been there to help you through your childhood traumas and fears. I am ashamed at my lack of compassion for you. Your like the dirty dog that has mange, who has been discarded by the world, and beaten up by all those who pass bye. I was one more person who passed you by and kicked you.
I am going back to work now and I want to say that I am sorry for playing with you like a toy, only to discard you when I was finished with you. I know that deep down you are good people, only a little messed up. You will grow out of it someday, hopefully soon.
Again, I want to coach you before I go. I want you to know that you descredited yourself and your cause through the Fornits posts. I want to be able to send prospective parents of ALA to your site to show them how their child will turn out if they dont get them help now. You guys would scare any parent into sending their child to a lock down program out of fear of turning out like you.
Today I had a parent tell me that they are now convinced that they need to send their child to a program because of what they have read on the Fornits site. You guys scare them. It is just the outcome I was looking for. I dont need to discredit you, you do a perfect job of it yourself. So, now I feel good that I can leave you all to yourself and you can continue to discredit yourself without me. I would just get in the way.
As a matter of fact, we almost lost this prospective student today because the parent thought our program was to easy. After reading your material they were seriously considering a stronger locked down program.
I would bet that you guys are sending more kids to the WWASP type programs then any other organization I know. You are more effect then the marketing group of TEEN HELP. All I would have to say to a parent is, "do you want your child to turn out like one of those people that post on Fornit's?"
As a matter of fact, for you conspiracy buffs... I would not be suprised to find out that Ginger and the rest of you are really relatives of the WWASP ownership. You are their best marketing tool. It would not suprise me to find out that you were being paid by some of the more unscrupulous Teen Help type of programs to act as their poster child. I wonder how much that pays? I bet you guys are really profiteers on the backs of children and only pretend to be against WWASP and other programs like it.
Well anyway, I wish you all the best. I will not be seeing you anymore (unless it is to visit you behind bars). My short visit is up. However, I will be talking to Ginger in the near future. By the way, does your local CPS agency know about your pot use in your home? I happen to know that you homeschool your children. Do they know you smoke pot? I think that would be classified as child endangerment and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Until the laws change honey you are in danger of losing your children if you continue to smoke pot in front of your children. Or, do you hide it from them? What do you think?
I wish I could say that I will see you soon, but I cant! bye-bye Butcher.. . (you need to get a new act Bill) and bye-bye Turd of Wisdumb (Ginger, you need to get a new act too..) Sorry to expose you guys as being the characters behind the masks . You are probably asking, "how did he know?"
http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread2298.shtml (http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread2298.shtml)
You seriously going to trust this guy with kids lives???????????????????????
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On 2005-01-03 17:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
Water Angel - Water - as in Water Pipe maybe; Angel - just look at your Icon
I assure you I'm not Water Angel nor do I post anon; not at all in the past year or so. Except for one post as Nobody (because someone asked) I don't think I've even used any name other than Antigen in that time, either.
I once asked my daughter how hard she had to work to keep Psycho Boy from "getting in a bad mood". Just how hard do you have to work to keep the faith?
It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him.
--Arthur C. Clarke, author
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On 2005-01-03 20:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"ok, I don´t want to make noise here, I was looking for some information because this is a serious situation, We are talking about kids.
Wish I had some info for you. As far as people getting upset, it's a given around here; especially when someone gets a little too close to someone else's sacred illusions. It's not a problem. Carry on. I do hope you find what you're looking for.
The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.
-- Muhammad Ali
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On 2005-01-04 14:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
I wish I could say that I will see you soon, but I cant! bye-bye Butcher.. . (you need to get a new act Bill) and bye-bye Turd of Wisdumb (Ginger, you need to get a new act too..) Sorry to expose you guys as being the characters behind the masks . You are probably asking, "how did he know?"
In case anyone's wondering, neither I nor Bill have ever posted under either of these usernames. So I never wondered how Craig "knew" this, I just assumed he came by it the same way he comes by a lot of his "knowledge"; the voices in his head.
Arms in the hands of citizens [may] be used at individual discretion...in private self-defense...
-- John Adams, (1788)
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We know Ginger, don't worry. Most of us know who Turd and the Butcher are anyway.
Besides, doesn't that whole "I did this on purpose to expose your true selves" bit sound like PeeWee Herman? I MEANT to do that. nanny nanny boo boo. This guy is actually in charge of other people's children??? :???:
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Where you asking me how hard I have to work to keep faith?
Do you mean Faith in God?
If so, I find it an easy thing to do. Not at all like work.
I don't know if you use alter egos or not. I was just saying I have sometimes wondered.
If you say you don't, then you don't.
Faith in this might be a little harder to muster, but I'll work on it
As for the Craig Post - ya'll never wanted to see his side of the whole mess. He was pretty severally provoked. And much of the problem is your visceral reaction to any kind of Christian "speech". You (a lot of you) think it is ALL scary.
As for the 'I ment to do that' thing - you do realize he was talking about getting the un-Christ like aspects on Fornits to react in just the way they did; so people could see just who the opposition is, and how they are, don't you?
Ginger, remember saying once how glad you were someone had shown themselves for what they where (If I recall correctly, IYO, a judgmental Christian) and me reminding you the coin flips?
It really does.
::rainbow::
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On 2005-01-04 17:55:00, BuzzKill wrote:
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Where you asking me how hard I have to work to keep faith?
Do you mean Faith in God?
Actually, I was refering to your faith in Craig. But who am I to say? Maybe you think he's God?I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist
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:grin:
You don´t know him...Do you remember WACO, tx???
Maybe David is his idol
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On 2005-01-04 17:55:00, BuzzKill wrote:
As for the Craig Post - ya'll never wanted to see his side of the whole mess. He was pretty severally provoked.
I took the time to read that entire thread. If you think he was honestly provoked into flooding the board with scripture and then the little PeeWee act you are seriously delusional.
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Yeh, pretty typcial of program fanatics. I think they have there own dictionary in which they redefine words to match their warped imaginings. Craig seemed to define debate as attack. An attack worthy of pulling the big guns.
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Well, I have faith in Craig for some things. . .
I am well aware he is not God, nor is any man (Mormon friends take note) Maybe thats why I am more tolerant of mistakes he might have made. I don't expect him to be perfect. And I think the obscene ranting of Turd and Butcher pretty severely provoking. I am as offended by them as you guys are by Craig. Probably more so. I feel confident, great offence was the whole point. It was not a genuine dialog of differing opinions and was never ment to be. Every one acted like an ass. That happens a lot on Fornits.
In the things that matter - Craig is trustworthy and I do have faith in him to do the right thing.
I know he went far beyond the call of duty for my family. He most defiantly went the extra mile for us. I'm grateful; not fanatical.
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On 2005-01-05 07:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
And I think the obscene ranting of Turd and Butcher pretty severely provoking.
Go back and actually READ the thread this time. Turd of Wisdom and the Butcher didn't even APPEAR until after Word of Wisdom (aka Craig) decided to flood the board (page 9). Who provoked who?????
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Besides, both of those alias are always used as a joke. Can't you see that? Yes, it's juvenile, inciteful and off color. But no one else seemed particularly provoked by any of that. The rest of us just either chuckled or not and then went on to address the salient points of the discussion.
One reason why I wouldn't trust Craig around my kids is that he obviously has little self control. Does he lose it like this every time a kid in his care curses or farts?
If you think about why you hate me, you might find that it's not me.
--Antigen
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Well, on these point made above, we simply disagree. I feel what Trud and Butcher Said was offensive - never mind the extreme off color nature of their tag. I'm sure it was intended to offended me and give you the giggles. It worked.
Its not that I don't understand how you folks view the situation, but I feel I have a more well rounded view (I actually know the man) and so see things differently.
To answer your question Ginger, No- he does not loose control when a kid cusses or farts. Nate enjoyed his company and often had a blast on the trips they took. Knowing my son, I am sure he occasionally cursed and farted, among other things. Craig is actually very understanding and patient with the kids. Often less so with the parents. He has got a gift for working with drug addled kids. They seem to be able to relate to him and open up to him in a way that is remarkable. Nate and the boys who were in ALA with him seem to look upon Craig as a good and trusted confidant and friend. They don't always take his advice; frequently not; but I think they are well aware its good advice and that he has their best interest at heart.
So - that's my take on the subject of Craig. I've often before explained what I know and think about ALA. I have nothing to add and realize you guys disagree.
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On 2005-01-05 07:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
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Well, I have faith in Craig for some things. . .
I am well aware he is not God, nor is any man (Mormon friends take note) Maybe thats why I am more tolerant of mistakes he might have made. I don't expect him to be perfect. And I think the obscene ranting of Turd and Butcher pretty severely provoking. I am as offended by them as you guys are by Craig. Probably more so. I feel confident, great offence was the whole point. It was not a genuine dialog of differing opinions and was never ment to be. Every one acted like an ass. That happens a lot on Fornits.
In the things that matter - Craig is trustworthy and I do have faith in him to do the right thing.
I know he went far beyond the call of duty for my family. He most defiantly went the extra mile for us. I'm grateful; not fanatical.
"
Sorry, I don't buy it.
The internet is the internet, and trolls are a fact of life here.
There are *also* always people who are in a particular virtual space to discuss things on the level of reason, general philosophy, and evidence.
Trolls are jerks, but when someone rises to the bait of a troll he is *also* being a jerk.
And Craig did a pretty good job of coming across as actively mentally unbalanced.
Now, that's not necessarily a terrible thing, there is therapy and there are medications that can stabilize someone with a problem (I should know). However, *I* would not place a child with Craig unless I'd talked to him and verified that he was stable *and* verified that he was actively doing what he needed to do to remain stable and planned to keep doing it.
And it is always possible that Craig is a nice person who just isn't very good at expressing himself in print and came across as unstable when he's not. It's not likely, I don't think, but sure, it's possible.
*I* wouldn't bet a kid's welfare on it without checking it out very carefully first. "Possibly alright" isn't good enough.
That's just my opinion and the way the guy came across to me. He may come over entirely different in person, or he may have just been temporarily going through a bad time.
And to be fair, I think *anyone* who is not the child's parent should be screened *very* carefully before a child gets entrusted to their care.
That's general common sense---Craig or no Craig, you check people out carefully before you leave your kid with them overnight, much less for months.
I can't even remotely imagine sending my kid to a facility, even in the direst situation, where that facility didn't do background checks on every employee who would have access to the kids. I just wouldn't be able to sleep nights for worrying. Too much risk for me.
Timoclea
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On 2005-01-05 08:42:00, BuzzKill wrote:
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He has got a gift for working with drug addled kids. They seem to be able to relate to him and open up to him in a way that is remarkable.
Yeah, that sounds about right. In fact he really does remind me of some drug addled kids I've come accross; all grandiosity and junkie ego. It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems don't try to make it posthumous.
--Gloria Steinam, women's rights activist
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Just curious, haven't heard from Paige and Amanda lately. How's it going?
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Hey water angel do i know u from ALA ? this is Amanda or Mandi whatever.
thanks
Amanda