Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Stripe on December 10, 2004, 10:48:00 AM
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I am 47 years old, my brother is now 52. My parents are now 82 and 84, mom and dad respectively.
Our folks put us (me and my brother) in the Ft. Lauderdale Seed in March of 1973. For lack of a better explanation, my behavior intially the "cause" of our internment.
My mother was a public school teacher and taught at the high school where I attended. Apparently, a Seedling got her ear and told her what a wonderful place the seed was, how it changed her life, etc., and because of my radical behavior (having smoked pot maybe 10 times)our folks decided to "nip it" in the bud. Anyway, long story short, my brother was injured at the time and my folks were given the choice of either both of us being put in, or putting my brother out on the streets with no place to live and no way to make a living while his leg healed. My brother, bless his heart, opted come in there with me. I wish I had known then the sacrifce he was making for me.
Fast forward 32 years. After much introspection, etc., another seed freind and I come cross this site. I began to remember things about the place and remember what happened to me there.
I have since spoken with my mother about their decsion to put us there - father was not included in the discussion b/c of his health at the time. Our folks were sold a bill of goods on what the possible horrible outcomes were for me and my brother - and what great results would come from participation. When I told my mom some of the things that happened there, she was shocked. She cried and apologized. Did I mentions she's 82 years old now? I explained there was no need to apologize because they were lied to - how could they have known what really went on there? I never told them - how could they have known?
It's been a good experience for me and my brother to get this out in the open - between us and our forlks, instead of everyone thinking/pretending it was a good and positive experience for us. Understanding the reality of that time then helps me to understand my life choices and reality now.
Have other people discussed the aspect of such "involuntary commitmet" with their families or the persons responsible for signing the contracts or paying the fees? How did the discussions start and what were the results?
My experiece is obviously on-going and I want to be very careful not to cause my parents any hurt as they were only doing what they thought was right- based on the information given to them.
BTW - please don't respond with comments like "I was responsible for putting myself there by my "bad behavior". This is actaully a serious inquiry to help me heal my family.
Thanks.
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You raise some good questions. As for me, by 1978 the laws had changed and people could no longer be put in The Seed on an involuntary basis. It's one of the big reasons the program dwindled and became marginal - it was at it's peak when tons of kids were coming in involuntarily, signed in by parents of by the courts. I've read a lot about that elsewhere.
As for me, my drug use was fairly minimal for a kid in the 70s, my big problem was depression and anxiety - I was overwhelmingly sad and was suffering panic attacks too. I had no idea what was wrong with me. So, I signed myself in because a staff member told me they could help me, and because I was really afraid that if I talked to a Psychologist they would tell me I was crazy. So sitting on hard chairs and singing Jingle Bells seemed a better alternative.
From your posts I see that you feel that your experience was harsh and abusive. For me, it was different - mostly consisting of fairly strong discipline tempered with lots of humor and expressions of love. Not so bad, especially at first, until I later wanted to move on with my life and make adult choices and found myself stymied by the structure and rigidity of the Seed.
As far as my parents, they were pretty disfunctional - my dad had divorced my mom, remarried and emotionally checked out - my mom was on her way to developing full-blown alcoholism, so I was essentially on my own, even if it looked different from the outside. When I told my parents I was going in the Seed, I more than half hoped they would talk me out of it, or tell me I was OK, but they didn't have a clue and maybe they were a little glad to just shunt me off somewhere. I've never spoken to them about it fully - my father, who I am now closer too, feels guilty about his absentee years, and my mom is dealing with her own demons.
As for my siblings, they are both in AA, which I feel has a lot of the same Seed faults (although an AA person has a lot more freedom than we did!) but they are not drinking or using so it's hard for me to judge them on it.
After I left the Seed I got the help I needed, both from psychologists and support groups, but later just by discovering that I am a good person, I deserve to have a good life and I am OK. It was an uphill battle; I feel I had to recreate parenting within myself since the support I needed as a kid was really missing, even though I lived in a 'nice, suburban family' that was ready to implode under the weight of denial, substance abuse, anger and unhappiness (and this had been going on for several generations, too). At present, I am happy, at peace and feel supported. My family is still kind of nutty, but I love them and understand that this is all part of the healing that's necessary. I am not angry at the Seed, I do not think it was a grand conspiracy, but I do think it was ignorant of what people needed beyond slogans and 'tough love' and all of that.
Good luck in your search for wholeness and happiness!
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No easy answers here Stripe. For me the best thing I did was remove the anger from the topic and clearly and unemotionally present the reasons why it was bad for me.
My father was an adamant program supporter and helped start Straight, Inc. after the seed left St Pete. In fact he was one of the original founders.During this time him and I were totally estranged. Somewhere here there is a story about what happened to me andhow at 16 he tried to thro me back into the program and I left. I didn't speak to him for 4 years from age 16 to 20, and then we had a strained relationship for many years after that surrounding my being angry about not being validated for what I had been thru. This issue remained unresolved until I got about 40 when I removed the anger, decided what he thought was no longer important but that I would not allow him to claim the Seed "saved" me without an intellectual, not emotional, discussion.
It worked on some level. He understands partially why it was so negative for me and others. Other times he claims it "saved my life" to family members behind my back, even when it is common knowledge it broke our family up and I did far more drugs after the seed than I ever did before.
Go figure.
I would tell anyone this. Don't force anything on your parents. remove the emotion and speak to them adult to adult about what happened to you. Let them off the hook, tell them you don't blame them or hold them responsible. Don't expect miracles or total understanding. Finally, have the talk only if it helps you, don't do it to try to change them.
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Cleveland, the Seed in 1973, when Stripe and I were there, was a bit of a different animal then when you were there.
First, it was expanding rapidly and was anything but voluntary. Just in 10 months from 2/73 to 12/73 the Seed grew by 2100 kids,a nd I venture to say only a handfull of them signed themselves in. It was basically a teenage prison camp held in warehouses. Group was sometimes up to 1000 kids at a time.
The place was a revolving door of kids that didn't need addiction treatment but instead needed families. We were locked up, threatened in smug ways that if we tried to escape we would be brought back and then "court ordered", which increased your 'sentence' and was greatly feared.
During this swinging door time of the seed there are documented cases of physical abuse...some of it even hit national publication, and some of the stories are contained here in the pages of the SDF...oldcomers spanking kids with their pants down, newcomers being threatened with and then beaten by their parents at the direction of the staff at the seed,a staff member taking a 13 year old boy into the "back room" and hitting him, kids being thrown down hard and piled onto if they tried to run....I even participated in one such ordeal in the parking lot with a senior staff member and another watching which left the kid, about 14, bleeding and bruised. He then was sent right into the group by the person in charge of st pete at the time.
Those from later years that played football with Art and pranced around in front of him in their bikinis while he patted their little teenage behinds have a completly different experience than us 73 and 74 prisoners did.
Yes, my experience, like Stripes, was harsh. This is why also sometimes flames erupt when someone comes along and says the Seed saved them and all that, when most of us were just little kids ( I hadn't even hit puberty yet) that werent' addicted, didn't want to be there and were only there because we had no alternative.
I think your experience was harsh too from what I read, but in a totally different way.
My point is we all, me included, need to try not to paint everyone's experience here with a broad brush.
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You're right Greg. The experience was different at different times, and for different people. If people feel angry, they sould talk about it. If they feel grateful, they should feel free to talk about that too. I think it's all part of what was there, and these are decade old memories too.
No body ever hit me; but I do remember being jabbed - hard - in the back if some bozo oldcomer thought I was 'into my head' during a rap. No one ever sat on me or pinned me down; but I did submit to a strip search, an oldcomer slept on a cot in front of my bedroom door when I was a newcomer and I was required to keep the bathroom door open at all times - humiliating. On the other side, some of the people there were fun to be with, especially 'after the raps' when we were home - we'd laugh, and play jokes on each other, and have a great time. When I was with a newcomer, I sincerely wanted to help them; I tried to, as best I could and with the limited Seed vocubulary that I had, to make them feel good about themselves - I didn't abuse anyone. Mostly, we played ping pong, watched TV, and cooked meals and such. Sure, a lot of what I told them was over-simplified sloganeering, but I was trying hard to believe it myself.
Also, although Art surrounded himself with young, attractive women, I never sensed anything 'sleazy' - if anything, the Seed was very prudish about sex. I do think Art cared about the people around him - OK, he was an egotistical megalomaniac as well, but no monster - in my experience.
People did yell at me, tell me I had fucked up, and all of that - and they were often wrong, misjudged me and my motives, or they were spewing slogans themselves. But it certainly wasn't much different from what I experienced in other aspects of my life.
If all of this happened within the context of a family, or the military, we'd think it's kind of 'normal.' The word cult can be used, because we did give up a good bit of our autonomy to be a part of this; but people do it all the time, especially insecure, lost or lonely people. Some of the same things happen when you're in college, or on a team, or part of a corporation. It's a cult when it's destructive. And I recognize, that for some, maybe many, the Seed was destructive. In my case, it's really a hard thing to measure. I gained commeraderie - I lost freedom. You can see that in the end I chose the uncertainty of going my own way and leaving the Seed behind. But I recognize that people have this need to belong and they will give up a lot for it, often too much, as in a bad relationship.
Sorry for that damn long-assed post, I can't seem to get this out small concepts - too complicated for that.
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Thanks for the replies. I know there are times I sound really angry, and truhfully,I am. In time that will dissapate. I have no anger towards my parents now, but I did for years - obviously misdirected as their decisions were not fully informed. I just didn't know, but it's finally all coming together. Thank you so much for sharing your personal stories with me. It helps me to understand.
I appreciate it. :smile:
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You don't think it is a tad sleazy for a 40 something director of a drug rehab to be in his skivies, alone with a bunch of teenagers in treatment that hero worship him, all in their bikinis floating around in a swimming pool, blushing and laughing, with him the center of attention?
Hell, when I was married my wife would have removed my testicles with a spoon for less than that.
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On 2004-12-10 10:36:00, cleveland
I gained commeraderie - I lost freedom. You can see that in the end I chose the uncertainty of going my own way and leaving the Seed behind.
And what a great choice you made!!!
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On 2004-12-10 11:01:00, Stripe wrote:
I just didn't know, but it's finally all coming together. Thank you so much for sharing your personal stories with me. It helps me to understand.
I appreciate it. :smile: "
With a topic this complicated, it really is a community effort to figure it out. Your participation here has been invaluable. Thank you as well.
:tup:
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I think we'd have to hear from one of the 'chicks,' as we called them. I don't know how to answer that, I just know what I saw and it seemed pretty innocent to me...
Art joked all the time about sex, and in fact, he was pretty funny, but remember, we were all celebate, more or less, and supposed to 'keep our heads out of the gutter'. I think we all wanted to be 'honorable' towards the women (girls); Art always talked about 'class' and how important it was and it obviously struck a nerve with us...
So yeah, until I hear otherwise I'm going to assume that it was all innocent from that standpoint...
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Hi stripe, im very glad that you found this forum, isnt it about time that someone created this? I thank them as this has opened some doors for me.
I am from the Cleveland area and was sent to the Ft. Lauderdale seed July 1st, 1974. A lot of parents in the suburbs were sending their kids to the seed because they were afraid of drugs and newspaper headlines claiming crimes and suicides were the result of smoking pot and dropping L.S.D. Actually the catholic church steered my parents toward other parents in Cleveland who's kids had been sent down. I was on a southbound airplane faster than you can imagine.
In response to your seeking other seedlings to share their experience I must tell you that this forum is one of the best things that ever happened to me because I was a very upset, pissed-off, resentful seedling graduate for 30 years. In a few short months my attitude has made a transformation. I wont get into that at your request
My parents did the best thing in those days. They thought I had a drug problem and in truth I didnt, I was experimenting with pot and L.S.D. a few times and got caught. They put the family in financial jeapordy by flying me to Florida and my Mom came down and lived in a trailer for 2 months, I honestly dont know how much the seed charged per kid but I do know my parents had to borrow money to pay for it.
Over the years I told my parents about some of the downfalls in the seed. In the rap sessions they told us that our parents were stupid assholes and didnt know anything. Unfortunatly I bought into that and believed it until years later
4 years ago my Mom was dying (Age 70)and we talked about the seed. I deeply regret that because now she is gone and I cant thank her for doing the best that she and my dad could at that time. I told her that I hated all the staff, that we sat in hard chairs 12 hours a day, that we ate peanut butter and jelly sandwiches 3 times a day, and that we were brainwashed and they eventually came to believe that there were problems with the seed.
I suggest you take some time being exposed to this forum. If you have to vent anger and rage towards the seed pick a spouse or friend or therapist but dont choose your elderly parents. IT WASNT THEIR FAULT.
I hope you come to the terms of what happened to you at the seed and how that has affected who you are today. I have found both negative and positive, the choice is yours depending on your desire to find inner peace.
Jimmy ::boohoo::
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Yeah, you were all celebate...except Art of course.
REAL easy to joke around about sex when you get to bust a nut now and then, eh?
I am so glad I didn't hang around that nuthouse for years bottling up my sperm and trying to perfect myself into super duper superseedling.
Jesus, How did you guys sleep at night?
:grin:
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Yes, that was one of the weird aspects of the Seed. I can totally understand that if you have a bunch of young kids on your hands, you'd want to limit the relationships. On the other hand, how many kids learn about sex in band camp, or religious retreats, or whatever...and most of them turn out OK, right? Our society has crazy attitudes toward sex, especially with our kids. And of course, there's reason for the fear, but the Seed was absolutely crazy about it. NO SEX. That was an unstated rule, but we all talked about 'gamey' chicks and user guys and how no one really cared about anyone 'out there.' So, we were a bunch of paranoid non-sexual beings. Those who dated did so with Art's consent, or had to leave to continue. Really strange.
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Yes, especially considering the fact most of you were in your 20s and 30s and "forbidden" to have sex.
Very strange indeed.
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I never discussed the Seed experiences with my parents. Actually am very glad I didn't. I went there in 1970 I think. Fort Lauderdale at an old house that was connected to a garage? via a tin roof. If you were facing this house it had a large yard to the right of it. That's where Christmas celebrations were held in that large yard. Behind the house was a tree with gravel around it and we would have rap sessions there on the gravel. There wasn't many there when I first started but by the time we moved away to Ohio 9 months later it had really grown ALOT! I sat there every minute so scared that I would get come down on. I never made any waves just did my time to get the hell out. Thank God my dad was transfered to Ohio. There was no Seed there at that time and I don't think he would of sent us to another one anyways. He couldn't stand Art. :grin: :grin:
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Welcome Echothis.
Finally, another Seed inductee that did time at the house, pre warehouse.
Tell us some stories...please. We know a lot about the later days but the early days are scetchy.
Do you remember John Underwood?
WELCOME!!!
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I remember John Underwood, didn't he have sandy short short hair with pock mark face? I do have to say I always have wondered about him. Out of all those senior staff he was one I have wondered about. Not sure why. He was kinda quiet wasn't he? Did you guys have the pink toilet hot seat?
It was PORTABLE ha ha... I really shouldn't laugh it scared the hell out of me. It's been oh 34yrs I guess so be patient with me, since finding this site alot has come back to me and I know I'll remember more.
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Oh yeah I guess the reason I can't tell you much about John Underwood except what he looked like is I didn't get to know him at all. He did lead rap sessions in the mornings I remember that. I saw him everyday for the nine months or so I was there but never talked to him unless asked a question. Actually I remember he was the first one to ask me a question during a rap. To recite a rule I think. (I'm a chick).... Whats the scoup on him?
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Nothing really, just tring to determine how long he was there.
The toilet seat around your head. No, they didn't do that in St Pete, but that little "theraputic" piece of garbage was a DIRECT LIFE from the synanon.
Got any idea about who first suggested it?
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I'm not talking about a TOILET SEAT. I'm talking about a PINK TOILET. Don't know where they kept it when not in use but it was there. and it was used. One morning it was used on a young guy with long hair. But the problem was he had a new seedling staying at his house with his family....
what a mistake......for him to get caught using.
But the problem for him was Art had come out to tell us that one of the Seedlings wasn't there that morning because he had committed suicide. Well this kid got everything coming to him that they couldn't give to the dead guy. (my feelings). The whole thing was very very very sad.....so they took this young guy, pulled down his pants, sat him on this pink toilet that they set on a table so everyone could see. Then they cut off his hair. He cried, and fought until he submitted which was it seemed a lifetime. At present my stomach hurts from remembering. The young man who committed suicide was a very quiet person, I'm not sure what his story was but he went to his sister's apartment and put a gun to his mouth or head. He was around 19 years old.
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woops, I forgot to login....
Back to John Underwood, did I describe him right, is that the guy I remember? You guys didn't have the hot seat?
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no hot seat. We just got stood up and reamed by 700 to 1000 kids for little things like
"not appreciating the seed" or whatever.
As far as how John looked, I was 14... he was mid 20s.
He looked old to me. This is one of the points. He was much older and wiser than the rest and I wonder if he came up thru the "ranks" like everyone else.
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I was 14 too when I was sent there.. Got put in there because my sister's friend called a bomb scare into Pompano Beach High where we went. Some how thru all that we got put in there too.
Anyone out there from Pompano Beach High that lived in LightHouse Point?
Shelley P. where are you... remember the great times we had at the farm in the summers in Ohio.
As a side note... don't you love this emotion? ::puke:: I know I won't have to use it on this site but I still think it's funny.
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::drummer:: :oops: :razz: there are alot of good one's sorry I had to try them out.
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its like trying to pick out greg in a year book :grin:
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DAMN is there some bad hair in that BA yearbook!!
:grin:
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On 2004-12-12 06:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm not talking about a TOILET SEAT. I'm talking about a PINK TOILET. Don't know where they kept it when not in use but it was there. and it was used. One morning it was used on a young guy with long hair. But the problem was he had a new seedling staying at his house with his family....
what a mistake......for him to get caught using.
But the problem for him was Art had come out to tell us that one of the Seedlings wasn't there that morning because he had committed suicide. Well this kid got everything coming to him that they couldn't give to the dead guy. (my feelings). The whole thing was very very very sad.....so they took this young guy, pulled down his pants, sat him on this pink toilet that they set on a table so everyone could see. Then they cut off his hair. He cried, and fought until he submitted which was it seemed a lifetime. At present my stomach hurts from remembering. The young man who committed suicide was a very quiet person, I'm not sure what his story was but he went to his sister's apartment and put a gun to his mouth or head. He was around 19 years old."
Echothis, can you please clarify this story. It is not clear who committed suicide and his relation to the kid on the pink toilet. Sorry, the story seems to be missing some parts. Thank You.
Tell us more about the original house, please. Your story is very interesting.
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perhaps the kid that committed suicide was the same kid that's story has been told earlier here? In the SDF somewhere there is a post by Surfdal where he went to pick a kid up and his mom told him he wouldn't be going to the seed that day. Surfdal asked if he was alright and the mom said "yes, he's dead he killed himself, and shut the door. Surfdal told me they relentlessly would come down on this guy for nothing, that he was a quiet guy and Surfdal had warned them it was too much on him. I wish surdal would come back and post because I am working from memory here.
In any event, we need to hear more about this tragic string of events. This is the first I have heard about the "pink toilet" but I have heard they used to put a toilet seat around your neck and make you wear it to show you were "full of shit".
Unreal that this stuff really went on and that we were unwilling participants in this type of abuse.
Unreal.
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Okay, here is the original post from Surfdal about the suicide. Echo, is this the same story, was the kid named Jimmy?
" ill be damned..a board for former indoctrinees.. im totally freeked
..was forced by court into seed at age 17....spent about 1 yr there,,started over several times befor i finally escaped(which meant leaving my family... alienating them forced to abandon my 2 younger brothers..paranoid and frightened i witnessed many days of bizarre mind control and force automaton thought at the hands of art barker and his cronies..at age 48 i can still call up the that horror in a seconds less-than-nostagalgic flash recall of those clockwork orange type experiences..the worsty of which involved a gentle soul named jim, a young man who was brought into the seed from jail by the order of the court at the same time i was..and whom eventually rode with me to the incessent daily harrassment..now jim was a very shy reserved and probably emotionally disturbed young man with some obvious problems that i guess art barker and crew thought they could effect by their sledgehammer technique.and i warned them to lay off jim ..it was making him worse..i was withdrawing further into himself..he wasnt capable of withstanding shotgun harrassment from a large group of people..and it ended for him the day i stopped by to pick him up and we were informed that jim wouldnt be coming to the seed that dayby his mother..she said "jimmy went around the side of his house and shot himself today".. we were stunned and inquired if he would be ok ..to which his mother replied in tears "yes he'll be ok..he died"...so this is kinda a requiem to my friend jim....just one of the most drastic of results i personally saw or experienced at the hands of those..." DOPE THAT STARTS WITH D ,THAT RHYTHMS WITH P..THAT STANDS FOR POOL" MUSIC MAN WANNA BE.. HUSTLERS..IT ANGERS ME TO THIS DAY THE WAY THEY USED FEAR TO MANIPULATE MY PARENTS TO GAIN FINANCIALA ND SOCIAL POWER funny part was ...art barker couldnt even quit smoking cigerettes himself..tried for mths..and what a lil asshole he was too ..ill never forget that place..etched into my nightmares thanks for the chance to vent yall..peace and light..end the drug war!! "
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I'm 48 yrs old and that's what I remember. I do believe his name was Jim that sounds right. Sorry if the story went together but that's how it happened.
First the young man with the long hair was being reamed then Art comes out with the news of the suicide, shortly there after here comes the hot seat and they cut this young mans hair after pulling down his pants and making him sit on the hot seat. It all happened together. I have to say the time that I spent there that day was the worst. I never told my parents. I don't think my sister did either. In fact we have never spoken of it together that I can remember. I guess we tried to block it out. :skull:
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It was a white house and I always remember it being maybe a two story. Right on the highway. Can't remember what one but there was a KFC a few miles from it if you were coming from Pompano Beach. I only went in it ONCE, when my mom signed my sister and I in. It was a small room with a desk. There was a side door to the left of the house if you are looking at it. That's where they the UNTOUCHABLES made their entrances. Powerful bunch they were, ruling over 14yr olds and court sent souls.
My computer is being worked on, I'm using my husbands and he isn't to cool with all this.
So give me a few weeks. Take care and Have a Merry Christmas!!!!!!