Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: habibi on November 24, 2004, 04:22:00 PM
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:eek: Oh my God! I just finished watching the Dr. Phil Show and he is sending a young girl with RAD to Provo Canyon! In his words Provo Canyon "has a proven track record of helping young people..."
The parents are desperate and clueless, of course, and agreed right away. I'm going on the warpath! To watch the show go to http://www.drphil.com (http://www.drphil.com).
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What is RAD?
How did they pay him off?
Why doesn't Oprah just eat him?The time appears to me to have come when it is the duty of all to make their dissent from religion known.
--John Stuart Mill
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RAD is a psychological and neurological (although the psychological diagnosis "bible" only calls it psychological) disorder that occurs during the first three years of life when a child does not attach and bond properly to their primary caregiver. Fundamental processes do not occur during a child's first three years resulting in on-going rage, fear of attaching to anyone, lack of trust, an unusual effort to control everything in their lives, a lack of self worth, and an inability to fully comprehend cause and effect.
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The most blatant characteristics that some RAD children have include lying, stealing, physical rages (violence toward parents, usually mom, and belongings), cruelty toward pets and siblings, and an interest in blood and gore.
Some of the more insidious characteristics include manipulation (often very subtle), triangulation of adults, and an effort to control everyone and everything in their universe. To further complicate living with a RAD child, these behaviors are often not seen by anyone but the parents. The result is that family members, friends, teachers, neighbors, therapists, and others see a charming, compliant child. As a parent, you're perceived as incompetent, overly strict, or not loving enough.
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On 2004-11-24 14:04:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"What is RAD?
How did they pay him off?
Why doesn't Oprah just eat him?The time appears to me to have come when it is the duty of all to make their dissent from religion known.
--John Stuart Mill
"
Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD)
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I found a web site about RAD (Reactive Attachment Disorder): http://www.radkid.org/ (http://www.radkid.org/)
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So, why is Dr. dumbass here sending her AWAY to fix an ATTACHMENT disorder?
Being stripsearched, locked up, held down, fed awful food, humiliated, and constantly punished is going to make your brain trust anyone ever again?
I really, really, hate this stupidity right now. Some psycho-salesman on TV is trying to get people to buy his product and the TV viewers just gobble it all up, and I bet sometime soon there's going to be a fad of sending your kids away.
ARGH this is as dumb as the thread of the kid who got sent away for having sex as a teenager. WOW! Thats so unusual, having sex, and with a condom like mommy said! There's no biochemical test to distinguish the so-called manic-depressive person from the elated or despondent football fan. Nor is there any resan to assume the manic-depressive's inner experience is driven by twisted molecules while the football fan's is driven, at worst, by twisted values
Dr. Peter Breggin, Toxic Psychiatry
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On 2004-11-24 15:37:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
So, why is Dr. dumbass here sending her AWAY to fix an ATTACHMENT disorder?
I'm wondering the same thing, Nihilanthic. I perused the "What to Do" section of http://www.radkid.org/ (http://www.radkid.org/) and found information about this:
"EMDR, an acronym for ?eye movement desensitization and reprocessing,? is a clinical treatment that has only recently been found to be of help to some children with reactive attachment disorder."
EMDR sounds like a much more viable -- and safer -- alternative for this troubled child than Provo Canyon!
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Okay, I just posted the following to the appropriate message board on Dr. Phil's web site (http://boards.drphil.com/WebX?14@@.f068cb3 (http://boards.drphil.com/WebX?14@@.f068cb3)); hopefully it will make it past their moderator. I got a lot of my references from the message forums here at Fornits -- thanks.
I feel for Terri and David, but I cannot believe that Dr. Phil suggested that their troubled teenage daughter be sent AWAY when the root cause of her problems is an ATTACHMENT disorder (Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD)) -- and to Provo Canyon School, no less! Provo Canyon has a documented history of child abuse and is currently being petitioned to cease operations. (There is a very good article on page nine of the PDF document located at http://students.washington.edu/~ruckus/ ... 0_web.pdf; (http://students.washington.edu/~ruckus/vol-7/Issue2_Oct20_web.pdf;) the petition can be found at http://www.beyondbusiness.net/closepcs.htm (http://www.beyondbusiness.net/closepcs.htm). Testimonials from some Provo Canyon alumni can be viewed by clicking on the link "The Undersigned" on the petition page.)
While Terri and David's daughter is probably too old, and possibly too dangerous, for many of the at-home treatment strategies suggested on the RAD website at http://www.radkid.org/getting_help.html (http://www.radkid.org/getting_help.html) (strong sitting, snuggle time, etc.), I believe that she is a good candidate for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing therapy (EMDR). I strongly suggest that individual and family counseling, EMDR, craniosacral therapy (CST), and all other outpatient treatment strategies be attempted before committing such a child to any inpatient institution, boot camp, specialty school, or the like... And Provo Canyon should be avoided at all costs!
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thats why I dont watch Dr. Dumbass
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It's hard to immagine that Dr. Phil would recommend a place like Provo Canyon School on National Television. I too wonder if he is getting paid for the add. Provo Canyon School is currently trying to get any and all derogative information off of the web. They have threatened to sue one host of a survivor web-site. Many survivors have reported serious and illegal treatment and abuse such as prolonged isolation, forced drugging, stripping to humiliate, kickings, beatings, denial of medical care, denial of outdoor therapy for months as a form of punishment, isolation and seclusion for weeks as a form of punishment.
Provo Canyon School - Is not a school - it's worse than a prison. It is truly a Gulag School. No one in their right mind should send a mentally ill or depressed child to Provo Canyon School because they ignor laws that are in place to protect the mentally ill from abuse.
What makes matters worse is the fact that the authorities in Utah look the other way and do little to nothing when reports of abuse come in.
DR. PHIL - "WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?"Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right.
--Carl Schurz, German-born U.S. general and U.S. senator
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and I bet sometime soon there's going to be a fad of sending your kids away.
There already is. :scared: :cry:
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Guys, I have the email address of the girl's mother. By the way, I was mistaken about something. The daughter with RAD is 15, not 12. Anyway, if I post her email here, does everybody promise to try to get through to her and her husband with compassion and diplomacy? Her name is Terri.
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On 2004-11-27 15:13:00, habibi wrote:
"Guys, I have the email address of the girl's mother. By the way, I was mistaken about something. The daughter with RAD is 15, not 12. Anyway, if I post her email here, does everybody promise to try to get through to her and her husband with compassion and diplomacy? Her name is Terri. "
It ain't gonna happen. If you post it here it is public. Anyone can read it and say what they like to them. They will also get bombarded with spam. I suggest you ask people to PM you for it. Then you know who you are giving it to.
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Why don't you e-mail her and suggest that she do an internet search - please tell her to visit the site - http://www.beyondbusiness.net (http://www.beyondbusiness.net) and look at the comments from survivors of Provo Canyon School. She can then e-mail some of the former parents and students who have posted their e-mail addresses on that site. Hopefully she will look at both sides before sending her daughter there.
Dr. Phil needs to do his research. Another problem with PCS is the fact that it is in Utah where there is massive political corruption with the teen industry. There are also lax rules and regulations and little to no governmental oversite. If the parents do have a problem they will have a difficult time finding anyone to help or listen.If they can get you to ask the wrong questions they don't have to worry about the answers
--Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow (Proverbs for Paranoids)
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I'll do it. By the way, both parents are going to return to the show for an update this wednesday, December 1.
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I sent you a pm.
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I posted on the Dr.Phil message board, warning of Provo Canyon school, and it was edited/deleted.
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I noticed. I was looking for it. Probably worried about liability issues.
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I posted two now. Still, nothing.... Did you send the email address to me?
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What's the link for letters? I'd also like to suggest letters to the editors of all local newspapers regarding this. How many letters have come in so far on this issue?
When I started as a federal narcotics agent, the budget that we were working with, it was less than $5 million a year, and there was only 125 agents for the entire world to work the narcotic trade that we were fighting in those days. Times have changed. The gluttony has grown.
--Nick Navarro, former Broward, FL Sherrif
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To write a letter to the show address to;
Dr. Phil Show
5482 Wilshire Blvd. #1902
Los Angeles, CA 90036
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hi im jackie, some of you know me from timetoclosethedoorsofelan. maybe its time to get some people together and see if dr. phil would like to do a show on this is your psyche 5-20 years after behavior modification..... :roll:
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Here's my letter - I don't know if they will post
I understand that you suggested that parents send their daughter to Provo Canyon School for treatment.
I had a teen sufferning from severe depression and sent her to Provo Canyon School in Orem Utah upon the advise of three therapists in California. What happend to her at Provo Canyon School defies beleif and was in no way therapeutic for a patient suffering from severe depression.
She was severely punished with isolation and seclusion for a week for describing her maltreatment in a group therapy session. She was drugged with an injection of Haldol by force while six people held her down. During this episode she told staff that she could not breathe and nearly died from asphyxiation. After the ordeal she became unconscious and blacked out. The staff left her in this small, cold, concrete room. No one monitored her. In the morning she was lethargic and staff kicked her until she woke up. She was the faced with the horrifying side effects of a Haldol overdose - facial contortions, drooling, inability to swallow, blindness and severe back pain. Emergency care was not given, instead she was forced to do chores and was punished for fighting against the forced injections. She also witnessed the brutal human take downs of other girls and could hear the boys ages 12 -13 screaming day and night. There were many other abuses she experienced. . The maltreatment she received caused her to derail psychologically. Fortunately we were able to rescue her before more damage was done.
I strongly suggest that you look at the other side of this lucrative teen industry - that lacks regulation and governmental oversight. The children in these facilities are truly vulnerable to abuse of every kind because they are shut-off from the world.
I made reports of this abuse to the authorities - CPS the Attorney General of Utah, Health and Human Services. All we receieved were carefully worded letters indicating that nothing would be done.
These programs may do more harm than good to mentally ill teens - especially those suffering from trauma or depression.
Residential treatment of teens needs more regulation and oversight before being recommended on National television.... :wave:
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I made a post regarding our experience at Provo Canyon School and it was not added to the message board. Obviously they do not want any derogatory information about Provo Canyon on their site. I suggest that all of you write something and see what happens.....
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On 2004-11-30 10:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
I had a teen sufferning from severe depression and sent her to Provo Canyon School in Orem Utah upon the advise of three therapists in California. What happend to her at Provo Canyon School defies beleif and was in no way therapeutic for a patient suffering from severe depression.
She was severely punished with isolation and seclusion for a week for describing her maltreatment in a group therapy session. She was drugged with an injection of Haldol by force while six people held her down. During this episode she told staff that she could not breathe and nearly died from asphyxiation. After the ordeal she became unconscious and blacked out. The staff left her in this small, cold, concrete room. No one monitored her. In the morning she was lethargic and staff kicked her until she woke up. She was the faced with the horrifying side effects of a Haldol overdose - facial contortions, drooling, inability to swallow, blindness and severe back pain. Emergency care was not given, instead she was forced to do chores and was punished for fighting against the forced injections. She also witnessed the brutal human take downs of other girls and could hear the boys ages 12 -13 screaming day and night. There were many other abuses she experienced. . The maltreatment she received caused her to derail psychologically. Fortunately we were able to rescue her before more damage was done.
Is this true?
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Yanno, I think this is a marketing ploy by the industry. This ep of Dr phil that is.
And when I hear about the 'treatment' the anorexic or bulimic girls were in in the thing for the ep coming up tomorrow, I overheard something about one girl saying "Bad things about the program" to get out, and Dr. Phil confronting her on the show about how she wants to get out.
HRM... WONDER WHY THEYD WANT TO MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO SAY THE PROGRAMS ARE BAD? :roll:
This is SUCH a crock, and he will NEVER ever face the accusations against PCS or even the possibility that a kid might have a good reason to want to leave 'treatment' or say something bad is happening and it actually is. So yeah, thanks Dr. Phil, you're a huge sellout and you've just helped screw over the children and teens of america.God did not reward men for being honest, generous and brave, but for the act of faith. Without faith, all the so-called virtues were sins. and the men who practiced these virtues, without faith, deserved to suffer eternal pain.
--
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"Suess of the Carolinas" (sp?) is the "program" he's plugging today.
He's forcing him in to treatment too, with a broadcasted kidnapping. This really will never end...
*sigh*
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On 2004-11-30 10:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
Here's my letter - I don't know if they will post
I understand that you suggested that parents send their daughter to Provo Canyon School for treatment.
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Would the author of this message please contact me privately by email to support@fornits.com or by phone, 724-314-3169. I may be able to help you get your message out to a borad audience.
Thanks very much
Ginger WarbisIn Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a trade unionist. Then they came for Catholics, and I didn?t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
--Protestant minister Martin Neimoller
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Ok, I sent a copy of your letter to the producer we're talking to. They definitely want to talk w/ you. I have permission to give their contact info to you but not to post it publicly. Please contact me.
Thanks,
GingerA drug is neither moral nor immoral - it's a chemical compound. The compound itself is not a menace to society until a human being treats it as if consumption bestowed a temporary license to act like an asshole.
--Frank Zappa
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'Suess' of the Carolinas is actually SUWS.
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We should also write to Oprah. Oprah gave Dr Phil his opportunity on TV. I don't believe she would condone Dr Phil's behavior on this issue.He may listen to her input.
http://www.Oprah.com (http://www.Oprah.com)
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Who has been baiting this forum recently, or appears to have. Many posts asking for experiences with this program.
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What's SUWS stand for? (full name of the program)
I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist
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Its owned by aspen education group... same guys that own turn about ranch. IIRC I got it off the drphil website.
Wonder what he's going though in 'treatment' :roll:
What sucks for me, is I live in NC, this is my damn backyard. Should I go scope the place out or something?
Also... I really, really, really think this is just a obvious sellout and a marketing ploy by the industry. Afterall if DOCTOR PHIL SAYS ITS GOOD, IT CANT BE BAD!
I wonder if thursday morning's ep with the girl who "made up stories to go home" is also planted. Nothing like pitching the programs to parents and then on the same damn show the next day go on about how anything bad is manipulation and the programs can do *no* wrong, yet on the same show he goes over abuse.
Why on EARTH is there such a problem with lack of criticism and distrust in america these days? We need a lot more of it! Totalitarianism is like a specter which drinks the blood of the living and so achieves reality, while the victims go on existing as a mass of living corpses.
Karl Jaspers, The Fight Against Totalitarianism (1963)
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The School of Urban and Wilderness Survival
I'm researching them now. Will post anything significant.
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Were you all aware that PCS takes kids with violent tendencies? Many won't - as long as the parents are honest about ALL the issues. I've known families who failed to mention little Johnny's mutilations of animals, or little Sara's consistently applying choke holds on her baby brother and do get admitted to some of the other ones - then get pissed off when they are asked to bring their child home to transfer to another place.
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File on SUWS at:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=9&0 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7312&forum=9&0)
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PCS will take anyone who can pay the rate. They say they treat kids with mild to moderate behavior AND education problems on their website. They fail to mention that they also take kids who are sent there by the courts. They also fail to mention that the children have less rights than prisoners and all - regardless of diagnosis - are treated with the same warped, punitive behavior modification.
Enrollment is down now - PCS is interested in MONEY FIRST and FOREMOST. That's what this industry is all about - making money off of desparate and disfunctional families who happen to have troubled children as a result of their divorses, remarriages, drug and alcohol dependancy, inattentivness and/or lack of parental skill and discipline. Don't let your dogma run out in front of your karma.
--Anonymous
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I watched his show today about a young woman from down under with a severe eating disorder. She was so afraid to change that she tried to get her parents to bring her home early. When she finally gave up the outer control, she seemed to be learning inner control. She looked fantastic! Mom and dad said there was no way she was coming home early! Dr. Phil said dad was co-dependent and not as strong as mom and this was a family process. Sound familiar?
The biggest thing I agree with is that parents need to make this decision for their children when their children can't see or agree that they have a problem bigger than the parents or the child has the knowledge for. Leave it to the experts, not the parents.
Is part of being co-dependent thinking they know better than the experts?
Whatever the outcome, the girl has been given an tremendous gift to take advantage of.
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Leave it to the experts. . .
And I suppose you include Doc Phil in that category?
I and others would beg to differ.
In my opinion, doc Phil is nothing more than a new age pop psyche guru, who happened to tickle Oprah's ear at some point - and so got himself made famous.
I have always felt he was doing more harm than good and have often seen him treat people in a demeaning and ignorant manner. I have seen him tell OCD patients that they knew what they were doing was crazy and they should just stop it. Couldn't be a more useless and destructive thing to say to such a person.
There has long been talk on telling doc Phil about the program and the abuse; and I have long said he would just love it. The seminars are exactly his style and I wouldn't be surprised to find him facilitating.
You think the goon likes Provo? Just wait till he discovers WWASP.
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You really can't trust the psychological industry. It is not an objective science - it is entirely subjective. Diagnosis is made based on behavior and thoughts. Most teenagers go through a rebellious period. It is now trendy for psychologists to send children to residential treatment. It's being recommended to most people who seek counseling for difficult teenagers.
These residential programs are a fast growing and lucrative business.
Most give finders fees to the psychologists who send them patients. It's all about money. The longer they can keep the child - the more money they make.
I do not believe in the divinity of Christ, and there are many other of the postulates of the orthodox creed to which I cannot subscribe.
--William Howard Taft, U.S. President
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On 2004-12-02 21:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
" Dr. Phil said dad was co-dependent and not as strong as mom and this was a family process. Sound familiar?
Yeah, I remember a "Dr." in St. Petersburg in the early 80s that used to spout the same kind of bullshit---he didn't have a TV show, though. He ran a concetration camp.
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What is "Dr." Phil a "Dr." of, anyway? All I have been able to figure is that he has a PhD in BS...
Oh, and his message boards don't support the 1st Amendment...
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True - his forum does not support the first ammendment - it looks like the only comments allowed are those from Dr. Phil's fan club members. No other opinions allowed other than those that support what Phil says....
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
Andrew Tannenbaum
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Fact - Dr. Phil has a huge staff that checks out every nook and cranny of anything he recommends, including teen progams. Do you think he's not aware of the allegations? He's smart and so is his staff. Do you think that he would recommend something that would potentially be dangerous to this troubled child and risk losing his show, the sale of his books and his career by recommending on national tv this girl go there? Isn't his show part of the Oprah empire? Wouldn't that put her at risk also?
Some don't like him. That's okay. He's not for everyone. He might be telling people what he thinks they should do, but the ultimate decision is up to them, not their child or dr. Phil.
I didn't see him twisting the parents arms. I saw parents that were relieved that their just might be some help for the child they love.
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On 2004-12-04 21:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Fact ..."
Fiction
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BULLSHIT.
http://www.isaccorp.org/documentsnz.html#provocanyon (http://www.isaccorp.org/documentsnz.html#provocanyon)
They didn't check a god damn thing. More than likely PCS cut a deal with the guy for publicity. I know almost factually they didn't check, because if I can find out about that, a bunch of 'experts' could at least as easily, couldn't they?
Also, yeah, it is a money making empire. He just found 'treatment' and read what their brochure/website said and threw her out.
And no, he didn't LITERALLY twist their arms, but he manipulated their emotions into sending their kids away or "they could end up in jail or worse" and "you need to be strong" and "when they're older they will go 'mom, why didn't you do this for me'". I'd call that SOMETHING... its certainly not *NOTHING*.
Ultimately, though, its all just YOU saying it. I seriously doubt you have a damn thing to do with Dr. Phil besides being a fan of his. Its not like we're gonna see any proof of this either way - the industry at LARGE likes to hide proof. You NEVER, EVER see in the brochures, websites, testimonials, ANYTHING, about their ACTUAL METHODS For this treatment! The only actual detailed facts of the program come from those who tend to say 'bad' about it.
Chew on that for a minute. We must create an atmosphere where the crooked cop fears the honest cop, and not the other way around.
Frank Serpico
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PCS probably is giving the girl free therapy. They are in desparate need of good publicity right now. Their lawyers have been demanding web-masters to shut down survivor sites. They are threatening to sue those who have been tortured for using their First Ammendment rights to warn others in an effort to prevent other children from suffering similar abuse.
It would be interesting to know what the patient census is right now.
Pray for the children who are there now. Many will not be able to be with their families for the holidays. They have not earned that right yet.
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What, so they actually are capable of real therapy?
I figured they'd give her the same treatment (if not worse to break her faster) as everybody else. As long as she gets up on stage and says "it helped her", gave no specifics, hugged her mom, said she's sorry, and the most important thing of all - CRIES - it will make for good TV and make PCS look good.
By the way - why on earth would some treatment center that does so much good have to silence its critics? Hmm? Why not give details about what the treatment IS instead of counter specific accusations with generalized excuses? I've yet to see a detailed account of what PCS actually does!!! just "therapy" and "nuturing environment" and "sructure". Crap like that doesn't mean a damn thing.
Being sleepy can impair someone's ability to do thier job. People
can sleep at home and come to the job with sleepiness still in their system. The sleepiness can still be there long after the employee has slept. When someone is found to be sleepy on the job, they can claim that they went to sleep the night before. The only solution to this problem is to ban employees from sleeping.
--Arthur Slabosky
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True - his forum does not support the first ammendment - it looks like the only comments allowed are those from Dr. Phil's fan club members. No other opinions allowed other than those that support what Phil says....
Just like the Program BBS.
"Every body Loves me; No body Hates me; I'm going to fix the world." could be the man's mantra.
Wonder if he's ever considered the possibility he's less than perfect?
I don't know that the man has a team of experts - unless you mean a team of expert boot lickers who stroke his ego and cover his ass.
But, I do expect he knows these programs are controversial. I expect he knows kids have been killed and that many have been hurt. I expect he cares not. I expect he considers it the cost of doing business.
As for Oprah - she is a nice, big hearted, sweet natured woman- as far as one can tell; And very rich; However, that doesn't mean she is immune to flim flam; or blessed with wisdom or discernment. I do a little doubt she has much of either.
All only my personal opinion, of corse.
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PCS uses punitive behavior modification with confrontation. This is not disclosed on the website and is not disclosed verbally.
Parents are asked to sign documents giving them the right to use physical and chemical restraints if need be. They are also asked to sign a document indicating that they will not hold PCS liable for any physical injury including death.
They are also asked to sign a document indicating that they will pay for hunters to find their child if they escape.
It's a scary document. They prey on people who have reached the end of their rope. They prey on those whose children are suicidal as a result of sexual assault, depression and other trauma.
All are treated the same regardless of diagnosis. Depressed children are treated the same as those who are serious juvenile offenders.
Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will [America's] heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.
--John Quincy Adams, Speech to the U.S. House of Representatives [July 4, 1821]
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I know of several people who have tried to post infomation about Provo Canyon School on the Phil site - all of the posts were censored off. I also wrote a generic letter regarding the lack of regulation of teen residential programs - that also was censored and not posted.
So what is the use? The Phil site will not post any type of message that may cast doubt on the teen industry. :flame:
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The thing to do in a case like this is tell his advertisers.
Pay attention to who pays for adds on his show - write and tell THEM what the goon is promoting - and make it clear what they are thereby supporting - and make it clear you will boycott them as a result. Make it clear you will encourage others to do the same.
I suggest you explain the extream cencering of his board; and that you did try to reason with him.
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Now waitaminute.
Freedom of the press belongs to those who own presses.
The first amendment protects you from *Government* censorship---it doesn't say every Tom, Dick and Harry (or Phil) with a press has to foot the bill to print *your* speeches, rants, essays, poetry, etc.
You have the right to say what you want--you don't have the right to demand that others pay for it.
None of us here has the *right* to post our opinions on Ginger's forum. *Ginger* graciously chooses to pay for an open forum to discuss the teen "help" industry because *she* believes such an open discussion is important enough to the welfare of teens that she is personally willing to fund that discussion and take the time to support it---even paying her time and money to provide a forum for people who disagree with her position.
She doesn't *have* to. She *chooses* to. And gets mega kudos in my book for doing it.
*I*, on the other hand, am an unpaid moderator (read: censor) on my publisher's webboard.
I, personally, censor things that break the rules of the guy paying the freight for that message board.
One of the reasons I'm willing to do that is because places like Usenet, that are truly open forums for discussions of anything by anyone, exist.
The people who frequent my publisher's webboard do so *because* there are censors like me who weed out flaming, trolling, and non-PG-13 content. And weed out the webboard accounts of habitual offenders.
Freedom of speech means that the government can't prosecute you for what you say, and that you can pay your money to say whatever you like, and that you can say whatever you like in public forums like the town square, or where people like Ginger choose to pay for a place for you to speak freely.
Freedom of speech doesn't give you any right to the jurisdiction over someone else's ears. If someone else doesn't want to hear what you (or I) have to say, they have the right to avoid us.
"Dr. Phil" has no obligation, moral or otherwise, to pay for a place for you, me, or anyone else to expound. If he pays for a podium, he has the right to decide who and what he's going to allow to speak from that podium.
I think his opinions are wrong and dangerous---but he has a right to have those opinions, and he has a right to express those opinions, and he has a right to choose not to fund the expression of contrary opinions on his own site---or, more to the point, his employers or whoever is paying for the site has a right to choose what expressions they fund and what they don't.
If they don't want to pay for the storage of yours, mine, or someone else's screeds on their servers, they certainly have the right to choose to delete those screeds from their own systems or from the space they rent on commercial systems.
Believe you me that if WWASPS or other RTC's posted advertisements on my publisher's website that, advertisements being a violation of the rules there, I would *certainly* delete those posts. And I would delete the user accounts that posted those ads from my publisher's message board system.
And if someone was advocating for RTCs in a way that I felt was harmful, I'd certainly try to persuade my boss that those posts *should* be against the rules and censored. I don't know if he'd agree with me or not, but since I'm not paying the freight, I just interpret and enforce the rules and arbitrate whether a particular post breaches his rules or whether a particular poster is a habitual offender---I don't *make* the rules, and enforce them as best I can according to what I think the boss would do if he was reading the post in question, rather than what *I* want.
There is a reasonable place in civilized society for censors in privately funded spaces. We protect the free association rights of people to decide for themselves what they do and don't want to listen to.
You have freedom over your mouth, but you have freedom over your ears, too. The next time you turn on a radio station and get to hear the style of music you tuned in for instead of a street preacher telling you you're going to hell, thank a censor.
Timoclea
(Disclaimer: Opinions expressed anywhere on Fornits are strictly my own and are *not* those of my publisher, who to my knowledge doesn't even read this board and is as much of an opinionated cuss as I am and almost *certainly* disagrees with me strongly on various issues, and agrees with me on others, and partially agrees and partially disagrees on many, and---you get the idea. Blame *me* for my opinions if blame you must.)
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Who said he didn't have a right to censor his board?
Sure he does.
And, we have the right to tell his advertisers how displeased we are with his message and his censoring of our legitimate concerns.
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It's call Guerilla Activism... and it works when other things don't.
For all intents and purposes, he is acting as an Ed Con and using his celebrity to promote the industry on national TV. I personally feel he has a responsibility to the public to present a balance of information, whether he is required by law to do so or not.
His sponser need to know there is more to the story than he is telling.
This is a morbid kinda thought, but it would be interesting to see how he'd handle the situation if one of the kids he refers was one who was killed.
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I don't at all have a problem with you mailing and/or boycotting his sponsors over his decision. My problem was with the guy who said, "He doesn't respect the First Amendment."
I deplore his positions, but I support his right to have them and to present them, exclusively if he so chooses, on his own site.
I *also* support your right to use *your* rights and freedoms and economic power to oppose his opinions and to present yours in open fora or fora you pay for (like your email, or "open" boards, or your own site, or a letter and a stamp).
*Personally* I think he's a jackass.
I just think people's rights to censor private spaces and to have jurisdiction over their own ears by choosing for themselves what they want to listen to, or view, or read are very important (obviously). ::soapbox:: ::soapbox:: ::soapbox::
:smile:
Campaign away, by all means. :smile:
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***I just think people's rights to censor private spaces and to have jurisdiction over their own ears by choosing for themselves what they want to listen to,
Is his message board a 'private' space? I consider a private space to be one in which you must be a member to post, like the program forums. They are not open to the public.
His forum is actually a public venue that he happens to provides, where the public is invited to comment on shows that he airs.
There have been a number of apparently reasonable people who have attempted to inform him and the public of legitimate concerns about a program he is promoting. He and/or his censors are not allowing that information to be shared with the public on that public venue. Why? Does he have a vested interest? Is he intentionally keeping important information from the public? Doesn't it seem reasonable that he would, at the very least, contact some of these people privately out of curiosity?
Certainly Phil has the jurisdiction over what he reads, but I highly doubt that he reads that forum to begin with. Have you? It's usually filled with boring blather. The question is, does he have a right to ignore warnings and keep it from the public.
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Re: 'A vested interest'
The following was posted on another forum:
Dr. Phil McGraw aka Dr. Phil of NBC fame is founder of Pathways Lifestyle Management which is a spin off of Life Spring which is a manifestation of Resource Realizations which created the method of behavior modification used at World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools which is connected in many professional and social circles with the owners and operators of Provo Canyon School. It's bigger and much worse than we initially imagined. Act now! Join HEAL or contact me to get involved!
http://pub38.bravenet.com/forum/3260195 ... ch/382256/ (http://pub38.bravenet.com/forum/3260195035/fetch/382256/)
This article substantiates that he is the founder:
http://www.gopathways.org/dr_phil_mcgraw.htm (http://www.gopathways.org/dr_phil_mcgraw.htm)
They offer Seminars and a Teen Camp
http://www.gopathways.org/tpages/teen_camp.htm (http://www.gopathways.org/tpages/teen_camp.htm)
http://www.gopathways.org/tpages/teen_how_works.htm (http://www.gopathways.org/tpages/teen_how_works.htm)
http://www.gopathways.org/enterprise/cm ... f45e147#15 (http://www.gopathways.org/enterprise/cm.php?page_id=39&JRSess=8f4d18f7a682e92b7ec53bcd4f45e147#15)
Comments and links here seem to support his involvement in est/Lifespring:
http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php ... a1ee21b105 (http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=1089&sid=a7a979ceab0ccf022e08cfa1ee21b105)
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Well, I am not surprised.
It confirms everything I have thought about the man.
Think the National Inquire might be interested?
"Doc Phil, Cult leader & operator of abusive mind control gulags!
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Anyone ever heard back from Dr. Phil or anyone else they wrote to?
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https://www.drphil.com/drphilplugger/te ... D145600002 (https://www.drphil.com/drphilplugger/templates/BeOnTheShow.jhtml?action=respond&plugId=D145600002)
Did you see something on a show this season that made you mad and you want to give Dr. Phil a piece of your mind?
Are you outraged at the advice Dr. Phil gave to a guest and you want to confront Dr. Phil about it face-to-face?
Are you a past guest of the show who is still unconvinced by Dr. Phil's advice?
PLEASE EMAIL US ONLY IF YOU HAVE A SERIOUS GRIPE AND ARE WILLING TO DEBATE DR. PHIL ON TELEVISION.
Go for it!! :wink:
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I would *LOVE* to see him try to shut someone up whose been to PCS. hahaha.
Watch it be all about some stupid relationship advice that didnt matter either way and Dr. Phil just shouts over him. :roll: Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right.
--Carl Schurz, German-born U.S. general and U.S. senator
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Nihilthantic - watch someone else? Why don't you sign up?
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I'm not exactly able to fly out to debate Dr. Phil.
I'd rather leave it to a professional.Our youth can not understand why society chooses to criminalize a behavior with so little visible ill effect or adverse social impact... These young people have jumped the fence and found no cliff.
Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse
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Dr. Philips Magnovox also practices cwithout a medical liscence and is under scrutinty by NAMI.org He's a crackpot.
Boundary, n. In political geography, an imaginary line between two nations, separating the imaginary rights of one from the imaginary rights of another.
-- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
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Has anyone heard back from Dr. Phil about being on his show to let him know how angry you are about him recommending PCS???
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It has now been over six years since I "graduated" there... I would love to talk to the parents, I would love to shed some light... aritculately and sensitively...
Can I have the address?
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This is SO typical of the posters on this site. BITCH, MOAN and WAIL (drive your BMW) but when it comes to confronting Dr. Phil, live on stage in front of actual warm, breathing fellow humans, you back down and go hide in a hole - I challenge all of y'all that HATE teen help programs that are posting all over here that you've contacted him! I really get that he would invite you on the show to get your shit out once and for all and let the world know what enablers most of y'all are. Hmmm. maybe that's why you don't - you know you'd be laughed and booed right off the stage. :wave:
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I just email Dr. Phill and stated that I would like to go on the show to discuss PCS. I was at PCS for a year and a half. As a direct result of my stay there, I suffered years of post-tramatic stress disorder. I am now a college graduate and a registered nurse. It is my personal and professional opinion that PCS is a detrimental and dangerous facility.
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I don't think that survivors of these programs would be booed off of any stage. Most people aren't aware of the horrors that occur behind those locked doors. There are definitely two sides to the story and this topic is definitely worthy of discussion.
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No need to say anything! Get up on stage and motivate. hehe
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I know where Dr. Phil should welcome you... a show that is about "playing the victim", and never getting past it.
IF you were abused and/or torured in these programs, that's awful. BUT for MOST of you it's been a DECADE or more. YOU are an adult and should have sought help in dealing and moving ON by now.
I'd LOVE to hear what Dr. Phil would say,with some of you on his show. I'd PAY MONEY!
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Money man -
What you don't grasp is that the Talking takin place is not victims moaning - but survivors advocating.
All the talk is in an effort to Stop the Abuse.
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Absolutely correct Buzz.
Anon, would you say the same about Jews who experienced the Holocaust and tell their stories over and over? Do you perceive the retelling of their horrendous oppression to be an indication that they are 'playing a victim'?
To be angry about being victimized is perfectly normal and cathartic. Many have to go through this phase before they just 'give it up'. Part of recovery.
And, in the big picture; What business is it of yours what survivors do or talk about? What is your vested interest in them 'moving on'? Are you distressed by the fact that they aren't silent? Are you a control freak, armchair psychologist, who mistakenly believes that you can silence them all with your ignoramous comments? Were those comments intended to guilt or shame? Shame on yourself.
Takes all kinds, but telling one's survivor story is not an indication that one is still a victim. Many can learn from others experiences.
Activism for any oppressed group requires the telling of the story...over and over and over again. There are many people to educate when it comes to making change. Thank god our many activist heroes of the past didn't listen to you OR Dr Phil. Presuming you're a woman, it's possible that you wouldn't have the right to be hear voicing any kind of opinion at all, much less an ignorant one.
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Shame on ME?? Shame on YOU for even remotley relating yourself to victims of the holocaust! Good God. That is LUDICROUS! Seriously. What an INSULT to those people.
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There you go off the deep end, just like a good program junkie.
You obviously and totally missed the point. Hopefully anyone who this thread is relevant to, will be able to identify the difference. And if they can't, they're looking for a parent pity-party boat to jump on.
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When I got out of Straight, My family never talked about Straight again. I just relized last week when I looked Straight up online, I saw the stories and I started to remember my experience at Straight. I still thought that the things they did was ok before last week. I have lived my life with abuse. My parents never hit eachother and I always wondered why I got with abusive people. I have not got any help! I have not gotton over it! I am just now dealing with what they did to me, and because I didnt see that I was abused. Yes I am angry. I am not past this and when I am. I will stop posting. Last week, I wanted to kill myself when I thought about this shit. The scares on my arms remind me everyday of the crap I endured and I have to tell my kids where the scars came from. Some of us are not over this. The people that had to grow up in a perfect type leave it to beaver type family, maybe they have been wearing rose colored glasses like me. I asked my mother yesturday why she put me there and she started crying saying that she didnt know it was so bad. She never once in the last 16 years say that it was not ok how they treated me. She acted like nothing was wrong.
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I think one of the necessary recovery acts in "getting over" these cults is a single, simple, "I'm sorry" from the parent who sent you there. It means the same whether stated as the family drives away with their kid who they have rescued, the gruesome facility fading into the distance out the back window, or stated late one holiday evening 15 years later as the parent and child are alone in the kitchen, cleaning up the last of the dishes from a large family gathering. Most parents will truly say they did not know, or did not believe...and I think they also truly feel, "I'm sorry".
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On 2005-01-12 15:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
" I know where Dr. Phil should welcome you... a show that is about "playing the victim", and never getting past it.
IF you were abused and/or torured in these programs, that's awful. BUT for MOST of you it's been a DECADE or more. YOU are an adult and should have sought help in dealing and moving ON by now.
I'd LOVE to hear what Dr. Phil would say,with some of you on his show. I'd PAY MONEY!"
As for myself I pushed all the program stuff down inside me and 14 years later I started thinking about it after some major changes in my life. So to say that people should move on is easier said than done.
I bet a lot of people dealt with the trauma of being in these horrible programs by blocking it out, only to have all the pain resurface years later after a tragic or painful event.
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Easier to SAY how awful it was and bitch and complain than to actually DEAL with it professionally and as an adult.
I was in one of these programs- was never abused, never witnessed abuse, and actually learned a LOT from my experience. I've never felt the "victim". I took what applied and made great changes in my attitude, and self image. What did NOT apply to me, I disreguarded. I've been FINE ever since, in fact made and have kept MANY friends from my days there.
I just don't see any point to the posts I've seen here swearing vengence on founders, staff, etc. Very child-like behaviors. Don't understand the mentality.
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Wow, youre a tool.
Um... if they were abused, they deserve justice. If there is abuse now, it should be stopped. You have any reasons why it should be allowed to continue?
Also, If someone was badly hurt while locked up in a place they cant escape from, why the hell do you think they hate them so much?Hands that help are far better then lips that pray.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
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[ This Message was edited by: Ex5k on 2005-06-14 14:25 ]
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realize everone's experience in these places can be different. if you weren't abused, see abuse, etc., great! but don't ever tell others who have been abused to get over it, it's not true. how dare you? i have never been in one of these programs, but have lived in an abusive marriage. no, i'm not over it, and that's o.k. we all take different rates of time to heal. do not put down some one that has had a different experience than you. you can not possibly know how they feel.
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If you re-read the post, you'll see that NO WHERE did I write "get over it". DEAL with it and move on is what was written. BIG DIFFERENCE.
It appears that many of you choose NOT to deal with your issues, except to complain, and gripe on this site, etc. Sure, maybe it helps to spew a bit... but YEARS of posts??! Where has that gotten anyone? How many programs have the people posting on this site shut down??
It seems black or white -- since some of you had what you say it abuse in a program, ALL programs are abusive! I say that's not true... it's NOT all black or white.
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On 2005-01-14 06:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
" If you re-read the post, you'll see that NO WHERE did I write "get over it". DEAL with it and move on is what was written. BIG DIFFERENCE.
It appears that many of you choose NOT to deal with your issues, except to complain, and gripe on this site, etc. Sure, maybe it helps to spew a bit... but YEARS of posts??! Where has that gotten anyone? How many programs have the people posting on this site shut down??
It seems black or white -- since some of you had what you say it abuse in a program, ALL programs are abusive! I say that's not true... it's NOT all black or white."
Of course it's not.
There *are* things that require residential care and there *is* such a thing as good residential care.
But Stockholm Syndrome is no substitute for real care, confrontational "therapy" is generally terribly inferior to supportive therapy, and whatever a person's problems, adding PTSD on top of it is not an improvement.
The "Program" model of treatment has some serious problems.
What showing up and bitching on Fornits does is:
1) Increases consumer awareness of the problems
2) provides a clearing house for actual news regarding the various programs
3) provides support for friends, family, and survivors dealing with programs and their aftermath
4) allows brainstorming about possible solutions
5) just plain gives someplace to vent
Sometimes I post because I'm here anyway to check for real news. I might as well.
Sometimes I post because the solution to the speech of Program cheerleaders is more speech.
Fornits may not shut programs down, but it does support family members who try to get their loved ones back out of programs---Paige's son's sister, Amanda, is a good example. It provides real information so that if you're debating a particular program with people who don't generally come here, you can provide a link and the people you're talking to can read what people who've actually been there, recently, say about that particular program. It helps convince some individual parents to choose better, safer options for their child's care.
Advocacy and activism *do* make real changes in the world. They make them slowly, like water dripping on limestone, but they do make them.
TimocleaEnlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppression of both mind and body will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day
Thomas Jefferson
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On 2005-01-13 18:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
" Easier to SAY how awful it was and bitch and complain than to actually DEAL with it professionally and as an adult.
I was in one of these programs- was never abused, never witnessed abuse, and actually learned a LOT from my experience. I've never felt the "victim". I took what applied and made great changes in my attitude, and self image. What did NOT apply to me, I disreguarded. I've been FINE ever since, in fact made and have kept MANY friends from my days there.
I just don't see any point to the posts I've seen here swearing vengence on founders, staff, etc. Very child-like behaviors. Don't understand the mentality."
I don't think all programs are abusive, but the one I was in was abusive. Not so much to me, but I witnessed unethical things being done to others. I do consider it abusive that I was held in a program for 22 months. 22 months is way too long and I feel it was done so I could be a babysitter for the new girls in the program and the money. I did everything I was supposed to do in that place, yet they still kept me there way to long. It started causing me to mentally fall apart.
I came to the boards looking for old friends, not to seek vengenance as you say some do.
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On 2005-01-13 19:36:00, Ex5k wrote:
"Oh I have been in a place like that! I mean what anon is talking about. It is called a psychiatric hospital. I do not know how many times I have gone to them after Straight. Those hopitals are great! We get to watch T.V., talk, read, go potty when we need to, In fact I do not think I recall being abused in one. I am glad that you have not been in the same place I have been. I would never wish it apon anyone. I wonder why I am acting like a child in these posts? Maybe a professional could help us. HAHA![ This Message was edited by: Ex5k on 2005-01-13 19:39 ]"
I was in a hospital myself before Straight and agree things were so much better. Those damn Tough Love brainwashed families convinced my mom I needed Straight. LOL.
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krystene,
what "school" were you in? what years were you there? what kinds of abusive things did you see? was it just the beh. modification abuse or did you see physical abuse also? i really am interested.. please tell me all you feel comfortable with sharing. thank you
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On 2005-01-14 15:16:00, chi3 wrote:
"krystene,
what "school" were you in? what years were you there? what kinds of abusive things did you see? was it just the beh. modification abuse or did you see physical abuse also? i really am interested.. please tell me all you feel comfortable with sharing. thank you"
I was in an adolescent drug treatment center called Straight from July 1987 to May 1989. After graduating the program I was made to stay in the program another 21 days so I could continue to watch girls on a lower level. They were called newcomers and we were NEVER allowed to take our eyes off them or we would suffer major repurcussions like becoming a newcomer again ourselves. It was only at night when we were put in a bedroom with an alarm turned on that we could take our eyes off the newcomers. When it was time for us to shower our newcomers had to put both hads in the shower so we could make sure they were not trying to run away or harm themselves.
We had to attend "group therapy" 6 days a week and 9 hours a day. 2 of the days consisted of so called therapy for 12 hours. All of it was very confrontational. The reasoning was that we all needed to be broke down and be rebuilt. It's hard for me to even describe the things that went on in this place to outsiders. It's like you would have to be there to truly know how lonely and desperate most of us felt. Tons of harmful BM stuff. We were isolated from the world and only their world had all the answers to our problems. I lived in a constant state of fear and anxiety that I would be accussed of doing something wrong and be made to be a newcomer again. I wittnessed this stuff daily. People were forced to confesss to things they never did or were humilated and punished for making a small mistake.
It is against the law in Michigan to restrain clients in these treatment centers. However, toward the end of my program a loophole was discovered and used. If the staff believed a person would harm themselves or another person staff could restrain them to prevent them from running away or doing anything else found to be disruptful to our group therapy meetings. The way kids were restrained having several people on top of them while staff and group members would stand up one after another confronting the kid was just plain wrong. A lot of emotional abuse was done in the name of treatment.
I have read here and there about your daughter and I can not tell anyone what to do with their kids, but it sounds like you have legitimate concerns about the facilty she's in. Where my parents went wrong is not making me stick with counseling before I went into Straight. I was doing a lot of stuff that my parents felt was disrespectful and dangerous, but no one ever got to the bottom line of why I was doing all of those things. Depression, abuse from my father, abandonment feelings, living in a family with a step parent and just the whole thing of being viewed as a trouble maker and a bad kid by everyone just became a self fufilling prophecy. I felt terrible for everything I had done when I went to Straight and really wanted to redeem myself. After 2 years of that place I came home and started doing the same things over. Some of it was just stuff that teenagers go through. I grew out of it though and today I'm a responsible person. I would not expect any magic cures for your daughter. She may just need to grow out of what she's doing and learn from her mistakes like I did.
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The reason you were not abused in a psychiatric hospital is that the staff there consist of nurses and doctors- professionals who are educated and trained to work with patients in a safe and theraputic manner.
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Sorry, that last post was a response to a post on page 9.
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I'm sure there are exceptions, but Psych Hospitals have had their share of abuse. Notorious for holding and drugging people against their will. Check the Baker Act. Restraint deaths are common. I could load pages and pages of documented cases of abuse and death of teens and adults.
The bottom line- if you turn a loved one over to any institution, you better keep a very close watch. Ask lots of questions. Be skeptical. Abuse is very common, overt and covert.
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There have been hundreds of reports of similar abuses in these programs. If everyone just got over it and moved on - the same abuse would continue. Many here are doing something about it by disclosing their experiences. I am personally thankful to the Provo Canyon School survivor site - after reading many of the horrific experiences of others I was able to believe the almost unbelievable things my own child told me.
Stories of prolonged isolation, forced druggings, denial of essential medical and emergency care, sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation, verbal and emotional abuse, psychological abuse and many other abusive measures.
Many of these facilities use a "break them down, build them up" approach. They do not disclose this to the parents. They prey on those who have children with serious problems - drug abuse, suicide attempts, depression - they know that the parents will agree to anything if they tell them that they can help their children.
Dr. Phil has not allowed any of my posts on his site because they do not support his point of view. With soap, baptism is a good thing.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
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On 2005-01-18 17:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
I'm sure there are exceptions, but Psych Hospitals have had their share of abuse. Notorious for holding and drugging people against their will. Check the Baker Act. Restraint deaths are common. I could load pages and pages of documented cases of abuse and death of teens and adults.
The bottom line- if you turn a loved one over to any institution, you better keep a very close watch. Ask lots of questions. Be skeptical. Abuse is very common, overt and covert."
If a person is indigent or on Medicaid chances are that person is going to a not so great hospital. Good insurance makes a world of difference.
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On 2005-01-18 17:29:00, cherish wisdom wrote:
"There have been hundreds of reports of similar abuses in these programs. If everyone just got over it and moved on - the same abuse would continue. Many here are doing something about it by disclosing their experiences. I am personally thankful to the Provo Canyon School survivor site - after reading many of the horrific experiences of others I was able to believe the almost unbelievable things my own child told me.
Stories of prolonged isolation, forced druggings, denial of essential medical and emergency care, sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation, verbal and emotional abuse, psychological abuse and many other abusive measures.
Many of these facilities use a "break them down, build them up" approach. They do not disclose this to the parents. They prey on those who have children with serious problems - drug abuse, suicide attempts, depression - they know that the parents will agree to anything if they tell them that they can help their children.
Dr. Phil has not allowed any of my posts on his site because they do not support his point of view. With soap, baptism is a good thing.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
"
Very good point about these places preying on families that are desperate for help.
I can't stand Dr. Phil and think he's a phony. I have watched him berate people in the name of therapy so it is no surprise he does not want to hear your viewpoint.
Maybe Ol' Oprah that helped him get where he is might listen to you since she has abuse experience.
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What I meant (in previous post), is that since the staff at psych hospitals are actual professionals, with education, degrees, and liscenses, I would think that the incidense of abuse would be much less than these BM facilities, which employ uneducated, unliscensed, local hillbillies to implement programs that are not based on any positive psychiatric theory.
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On 2005-01-19 05:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What I meant (in previous post), is that since the staff at psych hospitals are actual professionals, with education, degrees, and liscenses, I would think that the incidense of abuse would be much less than these BM facilities, which employ uneducated, unliscensed, local hillbillies to implement programs that are not based on any positive psychiatric theory."
I agree with you.
Bad care happens, even with the best qualified medical providers.
That's why some doctors lose their licenses to practice medicine.
It's not just a problem with psychiatry or psychology. It's a problem with *any* branch of care or therapy.
Sometimes people who were good care providers when they first got their licenses have breakdowns or burnouts or substance problems and *become* bad providers.
All that said, I wouldn't take my high blood pressure problems to somebody with little training and no licensing just because *some* doctors are bad.
There are regulations and oversight to weed bad *licensed* providers out of the system. The safeguards don't always work the way they're supposed to, but they certainly help. A lot. They're a lot better than nothing.
You *might* get bad care in a licensed mental hospital with licensed providers and trained staff.
Your *risk* of getting bad care instead of good care goes way, way up in an unlicensed facility with a random mix of licensed and unlicensed providers whose ratio is whatever the facility's owners and directors think they can get away with and pay the least overhead for while still filling beds.
No system of safeguards on any branch of healthcare is perfect.
A good system of safeguards is *still* way better at ensuring patients get *quality* care than the unregulated jungle of practically no safeguards that we've got now.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The present state of the teen residential care industry is pretty much just like the state of the food and drug industries in the days of Snake Oil salesmen, Patent Medicine Shows, and Upton Sinclair's _The Jungle_.
We need the equivalent of the FDA and/or the USDA for teen residential care.
I'm a big believer in capitalism, market forces, and a large dose of laissez-faire.
*However*
A sane balance of consumer protection regulation and oversight greatly assists the operation of market forces by ensuring that buyers can be confident that the goods and services they buy really are what the sellers have represented them to be.
The Teen Residential Care Industry is a prime example of the drawbacks of pure laissez-faire, caveat emptor capitalism.
I buy medicines from the pharmacy, safe in the assumption that what's in the bottle is what the label *says* is in the bottle, and that it's been tested to make sure it's reasonably safe and we're reasonably sure it's effective, and I know the pharmacist is licensed and isn't going to put the wrong thing in the bottle (Deborah has a point that the process isn't perfect---but it's *much* better than it was before the FDA). I know the pharmacist will look at the prescription and check it against my other medicines, warning me of any interactions. I know the pharmacist will be able to correctly answer my questions about how to take the medicine.
Parents who need residential care for their teens should be able to enroll their teens in that care secure in the knowledge that their kids will receive the services as they've been represented to the parents, and that those services have been tested and found safe and effective, and that the people providing the care are licensed. Parents (and teens) should know the licensed provider is going to check and make sure that the teen doesn't have some problem that's going to make the treatment dangerous instead of helpful. Parents and teens should know that a licensed provider will check the patient's progress and switch to an alternate treatment if the treatment being provided is harming the patient instead of helping. Parents and teens should know that the provider is competent to provide the treatment *correctly* (that the drug in the bottle matches the label, so to speak).
Standards of care in this industry are primitive and frequently dangerous. Patients are being harmed by these primitive conditions.
It's time for the industry to mature and grow up.
With the number of cases of mental illness skyrocketing in each younger generation, the problem is only going to get worse if we ignore it.
Timoclea
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We need the equivalent of the FDA and/or the USDA for teen residential care.
I'm a big believer in capitalism, market forces, and a large dose of laissez-faire.
*However*
A sane balance of consumer protection regulation and oversight greatly assists the operation of market forces by ensuring that buyers can be confident that the goods and services they buy really are what the sellers have represented them to be.
********
I know you desperately want to believe that the government is going to fix this industry. And god help us if they were to create a dept as fraudulent as the FDA. It would be a waste of tax payer money. The FDA does not insure that the goods and services we buy are safe and effective. Only in theory.
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The government could do something and so could the industry. Law suits also help change things. In most hospital pediatric units the rooms have video surveilance. This is now implemented to protect both children and staff. Psychiatric hospitals allow patients to receive and make phone calls on a pay phone. They also have visiting hours. All of these implementations would make youth facilities safer. We aren't going to do away with them - because there are parents who just can't cope with the problems some teens face. So they will - if they have the money and insurance - turn to these programs when therapists make the suggestion.
These programs could be safer IF there was video survailance, computer charting (to prevent fraud and alteration of documents), mandatory visiting hours daily for at least one or two hours, available pay phones for student use, unmonitored phone calls at least three times per week, an omsbudman phone line to report patient abuse and maltreatment.
Some of these things have made Nursing homes and hospitals safer.
There was a time when parents were not allowed to visit their children while they were hospitalized. Research finally demonstated that this practice was emotionally damaging to children. Now parents are encouraged to stay with their children around the clock.
Children need parental contact and concern to feel secure and loved. These programs strip them of love and security. This is a major problem that must be addressed. I turned to speak to God, About the world's despair; But to make bad matters worse, I found God wasn't there.
--Robert Frost, American poet
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Back to where Krystene posted back to me, thank you for answering my questions. I understand this is a hard thing to dwell on. I was in an abusive situation for 16 years, so I completely understand how difficult this is for all of you. Krystene, your story sounds quite a lot like my daughter's. I now know we should have forced her to do counseling when she was home instead of letting her skip out of it. It seemed like such an ordeal to get her there, and then she rarely would open up or contribute. I am apalled to learn all the things that I have over the last few weeks. These people who have done this, or stood idly by and let it happen, need to be put in a dog cage in the hot sub and left to rot. Suffer you bastards who harm children!
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On 2005-01-19 12:15:00, chi3 wrote:
"Back to where Krystene posted back to me, thank you for answering my questions. I understand this is a hard thing to dwell on. I was in an abusive situation for 16 years, so I completely understand how difficult this is for all of you. Krystene, your story sounds quite a lot like my daughter's. I now know we should have forced her to do counseling when she was home instead of letting her skip out of it. It seemed like such an ordeal to get her there, and then she rarely would open up or contribute. I am apalled to learn all the things that I have over the last few weeks. These people who have done this, or stood idly by and let it happen, need to be put in a dog cage in the hot sub and left to rot. Suffer you bastards who harm children!"
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I bounced around from counselor to counselor myself. I think if my mom set some boundaries and stuck to them I would have followed through with it. Another reason I would never open up to them is because I was worried they would tell my mom everything. Heck, I don't even know if kids have a legal right to confidentiality.
I forgot another key thing about my exp. at the treatment center. We were led around by our belt loops like dogs on leashes!
Is your daughter still in the facilty? I was reading about the teen sex thing. Been there. I don't advocate teen sex, but if I even suspect it is going on I will be making that Planned Parenthood trip to get my child Depo shots or Norplant. Just my opinion. Timoclea had a lot of good stuff to say about it.
Hang in there. Most of us all come back to our moms. Being a teen is just hard.
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On 2005-01-19 09:28:00, Deborah wrote:
"We need the equivalent of the FDA and/or the USDA for teen residential care.
I'm a big believer in capitalism, market forces, and a large dose of laissez-faire.
*However*
A sane balance of consumer protection regulation and oversight greatly assists the operation of market forces by ensuring that buyers can be confident that the goods and services they buy really are what the sellers have represented them to be.
********
I know you desperately want to believe that the government is going to fix this industry. And god help us if they were to create a dept as fraudulent as the FDA. It would be a waste of tax payer money. The FDA does not insure that the goods and services we buy are safe and effective. Only in theory.
"
Deborah---I can believe and accept that you think the FDA has had its research processes corrupted by drug company money.
I compare the state of pharmaceuticals today to the snake oil salesmen and the medicine shows of the past and say that maybe it *could* be improved quite a bit---but it sure is a hell of a lot better than it was.
When's the last time you ate a hotdog and worried that you were really eating ground up rats?
When's the last time you gave your kid a spoonful of pepto bismal and worried that it had radium in it and was going to give your kid radiation sickness?
Both those things happened before the FDA.
If you can improve the process so that researchers doing the drug trials are more likely to be impartial, competent scientists, more power to you.
But things are *still* a lot better than they were *before* the FDA.
And when you buy medicine at an American pharmacy, you're still a hell of a lot more likely to get pills that contain what the label says, in pharmaceutical grade quality, than if you buy the pills from someplace in Mexico.
If you can improve things, more power to you.
But be honest enough to admit that they're a lot better than they used to be, and a lot better than they would be without at least the basic *attempt* at safeguards and oversight provided by the FDA.
I don't delude myself that even with reforms and safeguards commitment to a mental facility, or incarceration, will be problem-free. Adult involuntary commitment still has its aspects that suck rocks, frankly. But we can *at least* try to get the quality of care provided to the teens raised up to the level of quality provided to adults.
If by your criticisms you're trying to replace what is with what's better, more power to you.
Sometimes it seems to me like you're letting the image of the perfect become the destroyer of the good, and that's not wise.
Timoclea
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My daughter was turned down for Provo Canyon School because of her aggressiveness. She is 13 with bipolar disorder among other things and is currently in another rtc.
Does anyone know of any treatment facilities that are actually safe and GOOD?
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The only place I *KNOW* is good and safe, is mom's house.
Look into out-patient treatment, talk to therapists, etc. Try your DAMNEST to keep her HOME!
If for some reason she really does need to be locked up, not just because someone wants it - make sure you are in CONSTANT CONTACT with your child. DO NOT let them get between you and your kid. DO NOT let them censor mail or phone conversations. DO make sure she has the #s to advocatsy groups, YOU, and someone for advice. Make sure she has access to the outside world, period.
If anyone goes against that above - forgeddabout it.
http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens (http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens) has some tips for how to seek treatment - but the biggest thing I can not stress enough is LOOK FOR OTHER WAYS FIRST.
You wont EVER 'cure' being bipolar. I dont see why shes in a RTC anyway! Drugs and 'mom-fu' do a good job of managing that. A RTC is just warehousing the kid until adulthood. PERIOD.
Also, dont let anyone pressure you into keeping your kid locked up behind their walls and in their hands. She belongs with YOU, PERIOD. I'm sure you've heard of http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org) by now. Maybe you should go read up. The only way to be sure shes ok is if shes with you.
Being cut off from school, social interaction, and the REAL world, not just taking orders from others is going to make her very dependant when she gets out and make it hard for her to function normally. Shes also missing out on her teenage years. You dont get them back. She deserves some fun in her life. Go take her on a road trip or something.
And suffering is not a badge of honor. Experiencing tyranny does not deserve a bow or a kiss. The honor is in removing the stumbling stone. The honor is in the impolite destruction of tyranny through honest, powerful dialogue - not etiquette. Not political correctness.
Maximus
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On 2005-01-24 00:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My daughter was turned down for Provo Canyon School because of her aggressiveness. She is 13 with bipolar disorder among other things and is currently in another rtc.
Does anyone know of any treatment facilities that are actually safe and GOOD?"
For bipolar disorder (which I have, and have a bunch of family members who also have it, including my 9 y.o. daughter), I would *NOT* choose the behavior modification facility model. Period.
Your child *may* face a life situation on total disability drawing social security. That's my cousin's situation. When she starts to feel she's getting too unstable, she goes down and checks herself into the mental hospital so they can restabilize her on medication and they call her mother to tell her she's in the hospital again.
She sleeps on the couch with the television on to drown out the voices.
Her doctors know about the voices, it's just that with all the different medications that are out there, they can't get a combination that stabilizes her and stops them.
Then I'm at the other end of the spectrum of outcomes. I'm a good medication responder (not due to any merit of my own, just "lucky" biology) and am very high function. I'm a New York Times bestselling author.
I still have to take my meds and see my doc and periodically something changes and my doctor has to adjust my meds.
Bipolar disorder is a major, lifelong disability.
Don't expect your daughter to function like a person with no disabilities anymore than you'd expect a paraplegic kid to hit the top buttons on the elevator panel.
You're *more likely* to get a high-function outcome like mine if you try to keep your daughter stabilized to the point of not being actively dangerous and treat actual achievements as gravy.
That way she's not all knotted up and angsty inside feeling like she's expected to meet an impossible goal---being perfectly normal.
Not being angsty over impossible expectations *may* free her up to excel at the creative work that bipolars are so often *better* at than "normal" people.
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I wouldn't have her in an RTC at all.
NIMH, the National Institutes of Mental Health, has openly stated that RTCs or bootcamps that place mentally ill kids (and they specifically mention bipolars) alongside juvenile delinquents DON'T WORK and are actually HARMFUL.
If you do have to put her in *short term* drug treatment for addiction problems, pick one with no boot camp characteristics that doesn't also accept juvenile delinquents.
If she's actively unstable, use a conventional mental hospital to get her restabilized as much as possible on medication.
If she's not a medication responder and is violent, she *may* have to stay involuntarily committed to a mental hospital until the drug companies develop a new drug or drugs that will work to stabilize her.
If you've run out of as much inpatient mental hospital care as your insurance allows, and you can manage her at night, see if you can find a day hospitalization program in your area.
If you listen to all this and still think you just really need to use an RTC, pick one that accepts as few juvenile delinquents (unless they're also mentally ill) and has as few bootcamp features as possible. Also *insist* that you or a child advocate frequently visits your child to check on her welfare.
Do *NOT* use any facility that won't allow either you or a neutral representative appointed or hired or whatever to look out for the interests of your child to visit your child and make welfare checks.
And thank your lucky stars that PCS turned you down! Far too many survivors have come out of that place with tales of permanent physical injuries from mistreatment.
Timoclea
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As an 'austistic' (aspergers syndrome, look it up, its too complicated to explain in this post) I have to chime in here.
Nobody know what was wrong with me, why I felt so bad, or why I'd act out. I was EASY to manipulate and taken advantage of and used as the whipping boy a lot and the bottled up stress made me lash back verbally.
Aspergers and austism in general means you have difficulty with comprehending non-literal speech, both with understanding others and sending to them properly what you want to convey.
I can say right now the way that *I* am, I needed love and real emotional support - and for that matter physical affection. When the only time people touch you is to hurt you a hug goes a LONG way.
If I was put in an austere environment like a program, ANY program, it would destroy me. Any "advancement" would be me grinning and bearing it until I graduate or make a run for it.
I suppose being that kind of person, and because I have some difficulty understanding (but I do not have any difficulty with compassion or empathy, dont get the wrong idea!) how an austere, strict, pleasureless environment 'helps' anyone unless its in the same way that you make a dog tough if you beat it and mistreat it a lot.
Maybe I will some day. I just dont see the point of ego-reduciton and beating people down, especially kids. I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-01-24 13:25 ]
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this link is long, but i am very curios if dr phil actually refers and pays for programs? it just doesn't sound right.
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Dr. Phil has most definately sent kids to beh. mod. programs with parental blessing. I don't know all about the money issue, but he does endorse these programs. Also, you may have read another post where some people tried to post on his message board their experiences with these programs. Because it was against his ideas, he had them removed, or did not allow them to be posted. From what I understand, and I might be mixed-up, Dr. Phil was trained in the Lifespring program and affiliated with it at one time. Lifespring is now resource realizations, who do the program seminars(brainwashing) at the WWASPS "schools."
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dr. phil had a show on friday about add/adhd. it was actually interesting without his yelling.
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The topic of residential treatment for attachment disorders frequently comes up in email to my radkid.org site, as well as in the online support forum we run on Delphiforums.
The parent seeking long-term residential treatment, or boot camp type places, will usually phrase the argument in such a away as to suggest that it is a continuation of the child's treatment plan.
In reality, it's an admission of defeat.
There isn't necessarily anything wrong with that. If things had gone wrong, and our nephew had not been healed of reactive attachment disorder, but rather grew larger and stronger, angrier and more hostile as he grew older, there would quite likely come a point where we'd have had to admit that we couldn't handle it anymore.
But it's nevertheless a failure, as far as treatment and healing are concerned. Such places may be able to teach a child unhealed of RAD how to survive in society without going to prison, but they are not going to turn him into a well-adjusted person, able to have good, loving relationships with others.
And they could also make him worse. Especially the military-style camps. There's something about taking a kid who has already proven that he doesn't have a conscience, making him even angrier, and teaching him how to fight, that just seems wrong somehow.
Yeah, children with attachment disorder need loving parents who are going to be there for the long haul. They need therapeutic parenting and they need attachment therapy.
They don't need intimidation. Most of them have already seen enough abuse for one lifetime.
By the way, Dr. Phil also refers people here: http://www.happyhillfarm.org/ (http://www.happyhillfarm.org/)
-- Ken
http://radkid.org (http://radkid.org)
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:cry2: dr phil,I am 27. I have 3 children. I am married. My name is becky.''rebecca''.Davidson. Husband is Marlow.We have 3 beataful children.1,boy,Sebastian,Two girls. Pamela,Kathy.Age.boy to girls. boy 6,pam 5, kathy2.well Dr Phil,I would like time alone with Marlow for just one late after noon and night. This has been inposable seems like for a long time.Dr Phil, i use to have money when i could work. But i cant work because of marlows heath.We would like one afternoon say about 2.oopm until about 11.oo am. next day.To be alone.We have trouble with this because money and no one to watch the kids. We only get 599.00 a mounth now because i cant work.He gets a mounthly check. DR. Phil 599.00 just isnt an amont to live on and have extra for spesa. times.DR Phil. I got nothing for val, day. I only have two pr of pants i can wear and 3 tops. I dont even have a bra to wear. My kids have stuff to wear and food. but i my self have not got a new top sock to or pants in about 3 years. My mom dont buy me anything for cristmas. She gives me a little money and i spend it all on my kids.I got my husband one thing for cristmas a 17.85 doller top. He got me a pack of shower gel for 8.something. DR PHIL CAN U OR SOMEONE U KNOW HELP US OUT. We just want one night to injoy each other. Dr Phil write me back at 1314 Irndell Rd, lot 21 big stone gap Va, 24219. Or you can call 1 276 523 0542. Leave mess, if no answer. box will say larry spears. He is a friend. You can leave a mess for me. He will give it to me.