Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 26, 2004, 02:18:00 PM
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no, i did not go to seed school. i'm having difficulty understanding because i was in another cult (but religious). it is hard for me to understand since seed school was not religious, how tight of control they had over the participants?
Questions for those involved for many years?
Did you need permission (even after graduate status)from the staff at seed school to:
1) go out on a date?
2) have sex?
3) meet new friends?
4) choose a career?
5) change jobs?
6) go on vacation?
7) travel to another country?
also, were group gatherings of any kind, be it weddings, sports activities, outings, considered mandatory attendance or if you wish could you just stay at home by yourself?
If you went against what others expected of you would they continue to love you unconditionally?
Were certain members made to feel inferior to others?
Your honest answers are appreciated becuase I would like to compare it to my cult experience?
I'm more intereted in graduate status after you were supposed to be independent.
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If you weren't in the seed, how did you find this forum?
Just curious
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through other web Wes Orange something as Ilooked up cults . od u know answers to above post?
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On 2004-10-26 11:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"no, i did not go to seed school. i'm having difficulty understanding because i was in another cult (but religious). it is hard for me to understand since seed school was not religious, how tight of control they had over the participants?
Questions for those involved for many years?
Did you need permission (even after graduate status)from the staff at seed school to:
1) go out on a date?
2) have sex?
3) meet new friends?
4) choose a career?
5) change jobs?
6) go on vacation?
7) travel to another country?
also, were group gatherings of any kind, be it weddings, sports activities, outings, considered mandatory attendance or if you wish could you just stay at home by yourself?
If you went against what others expected of you would they continue to love you unconditionally?
Were certain members made to feel inferior to others?
Your honest answers are appreciated becuase I would like to compare it to my cult experience?
I'm more intereted in graduate status after you were supposed to be independent.
"
Everyone seems to be avoiding these questions as if there was some mystery at seed school? did some of u live in the compuns and others at host homes. please explain, thanks? If you were a graduate for a long time what in your mind convinced u that this was normal to be asking strangers who were not even your family to give u permission?
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once again, people are afraid of answering the above questions. must have been a weird mystery.
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You had to ask permission to do all of those things. You lived with other guys if you were a guy and girls if you were a girl and you went to Seed activities, socialized with Seed people and usually worked with Seed people too. Everyone else was thought to be a part of the 'druggie culture' and even a straight A kid would be suspect although I remember there were a few 'honorary seedlings.' And all this was true no matter how long you'd been around.
From what I've learned about other cults, or even very restrictive families, it's all the same; everyone outside the group is suspect; all non-group sanctioned behavior is dangerous; we're special and so why would we want to hang out with anyone else anyway? Don't even think about it!
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thanks. . .u seem to know a lot were you there a long time (cleveland) . . .oh, what if you were invited to a seed school activity, and said, thanks, but im tired and would like to just be by myself . .tha was ok right. .?
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To answer your question technically once you were a graduate you were allowed to come and go as you pleased however, out of consideration for others if you wanted to go on vacation or needed to take a trip you should have informed staff so they would know what was going on. The Seed was considered one big family or I guess kind the mindset similar of that of a small town.
The Seed was always careful of how people were doing not only newcomers but also that of the old timers for several reasons. Mainly to do that first: the group was the key instrument in helping people get straight so everyone had to be very aware of their behavior and actions. The second reason was that everyone at the Seed had a past and it was important to make sure no one would fall thru the cracks. (Some Posts suggest that some people did indeed fall thru the cracks), by this I mean that even long timers could be susceptible to depression, envy, jealousy and any other number of human faults you could think of. What emphasizes this was a rule (If you see or hear of anyone with a problem report it to staff immediately and don't assume its been taking care of). This rule can be interpreted in many different ways but that was the reason and origin for this rule.
As per functions related to the Seed nothing was written in stone that you had to go but since it was such a tightly knit group people went and were happy to go. Keep in mind I'm talking about the early 80's thru the 90's when there was not thousands of teenage kids at the Seed all the people made the choice to be there.. Most people left the Seed once they graduated
The Seed was a secular program due to the fact that no one wanted to have a religious affiliation toward any particular religion. the people at the Seed were from various different religions and it was considered counter productive to exclude someone just because of their particular religion.
I heard Art say on many occasions that the most important thing was to develop your spirituality and then you could decide what religion you would choose to follow, (If any at all). As you will see many will disagree with my assessment of this point and they will state their reasons.
Keep in mind these were the technical aspects or outside aspects of how things were viewed. There was, as in any human institution underlying currents of ambition, status, rankings in other words, were did you exactly fit in this puzzle and what kind of pull did you have.
Always remember that this is a forum and people with opposing points of view are not only encouraged but also welcomed
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sounds good, were u a professional that worked at seed school? also were certain people friends with (or as ive heard part of inner circles) based on the money that they had. . .in other words, was there a secial interest on the past of the key players at seed school toward people with more money?
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Hey anon, sound like you are "justifying".
:grin:
Serious, you are citing the justifications for emotional and physical control over people an exclusive group maintains ignoring the obvious real reasons cults maintain tight control..
That control over adults IS NOT NATURAL AND IS HARMFULL TO YOUR INDIVIDUALITY.
[ This Message was edited by: Somejoker on 2004-10-26 14:04 ]
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And anon # 2, there was no "SEED SCHOOL". Please stop using that term.
The Seed was a personality cult disquised as a drug rehabilitation program. NOT A SCHOOL.
Thank you
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On 2004-10-26 13:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
" To answer your question technically once you were a graduate you were allowed to come and go as you pleased however, out of consideration for others if you wanted to go on vacation or needed to take a trip you should have informed staff so they would know what was going on. The Seed was considered one big family or I guess kind the mindset similar of that of a small town.
The Seed was always careful of how people were doing not only newcomers but also that of the old timers for several reasons. Mainly to do that first: the group was the key instrument in helping people get straight so everyone had to be very aware of their behavior and actions. The second reason was that everyone at the Seed had a past and it was important to make sure no one would fall thru the cracks. (Some Posts suggest that some people did indeed fall thru the cracks), by this I mean that even long timers could be susceptible to depression, envy, jealousy and any other number of human faults you could think of. What emphasizes this was a rule (If you see or hear of anyone with a problem report it to staff immediately and don't assume its been taking care of). This rule can be interpreted in many different ways but that was the reason and origin for this rule.
As per functions related to the Seed nothing was written in stone that you had to go but since it was such a tightly knit group people went and were happy to go. Keep in mind I'm talking about the early 80's thru the 90's when there was not thousands of teenage kids at the Seed all the people made the choice to be there.. Most people left the Seed once they graduated
The Seed was a secular program due to the fact that no one wanted to have a religious affiliation toward any particular religion. the people at the Seed were from various different religions and it was considered counter productive to exclude someone just because of their particular religion.
I heard Art say on many occasions that the most important thing was to develop your spirituality and then you could decide what religion you would choose to follow, (If any at all). As you will see many will disagree with my assessment of this point and they will state their reasons.
Keep in mind these were the technical aspects or outside aspects of how things were viewed. There was, as in any human institution underlying currents of ambition, status, rankings in other words, were did you exactly fit in this puzzle and what kind of pull did you have.
Always remember that this is a forum and people with opposing points of view are not only encouraged but also welcomed
"
WOW!!! this shit sounds like BIG BROTHER at his finest, especially the part about "The Seed was always careful of how people were doing" not even the religious cult i was involved in was this scary. eeeechhh!!
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To answer your question, No ,the Seed had no professionals working for the program. All staff members came up the ranks from within the program. Status (for lack of a better word) was mostly measured by the time one had been part of the Seed. I just took what I was taught at the Seed to heart and to this day live by that.
I will say this after leaving the Seed I did sort through my mind and filtered out what I felt needed to be discarded and kept what I needed. Something I?m still in the process of. And probably will do for the rest of my life.
To be fair to the Seed it was common to be friends with people from both sides of the socio economic coin. Problems were usually a result of personality conflicts (few and far between).
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On 2004-10-26 14:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
I just took what I was taught at the Seed to heart and to this day live by that.
I will say this after leaving the Seed I did sort through my mind and filtered out what I felt needed to be discarded and kept what I needed. Something I?m still in the process of. And probably will do for the rest of my life.
Sounds interesting. Can u give some specific examples of things u kept and discarded?
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On 2004-10-26 14:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
To be fair to the Seed it was common to be friends with people from both sides of the socio economic coin. Problems were usually a result of personality conflicts (few and far between).
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Sure, as long as they were seedlings...
Outsiders were feared and scorned as "not aware" and dangerous.
[ This Message was edited by: Somejoker on 2004-10-26 14:42 ]
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Call it what ever you like. I believe that the origins of the group were true and sound, if later it was perverted, than that is a different story and we can discuss this on another post..
Being objective as possible
Remember something: The primary function of the Seed, its basis and origins was to get people off drugs and alcohol (people that have an overwhelming problem) and the only way to accomplish this by one relinquishing control for a while of their life. For this to work one must be aware that one has a problem that is too big for them to handle on their own. Why not rely on people that have fought the same demon..
I have met many people who tried thru therapy and other methods to stop their destructive behavior with no measurable results taking them only to greater depths of despair..
I suspect judging by your post and others that programs like the Seed were used as cure alls for teenagers and people that really should not have been exposed to such things. (Kind of like killing a rat with an elephant gun). You will also find that people who were exposed to the Seed in their teenage years will defend the Seed and it?s methods.
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Anon,
We know who you are and we are watching you.
BIG BROTHER
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Hey Gregg being that you asked and do like and respect you even though we don?t always see eye to eye and Taking into account these are things I?m still working on.
I will give you some examples of things I decided to discard.
1- I had to open my self to people outside the Seed take chances with them and begin to fit back into a normal life. I can understand what you said a previous post that it took you about 7 years. After all I did control my drug problem and now it was my time to move on.
2- I did see adoration toward Art as strange and cultic. (Even back then)
3-I did not want to rely on staff to make my decisions I wanted to make my own decisions and did.
4-I felt at this point I would grow more living a normal life than to stay at the Seed.
5-I never liked being so one-sided on or give the prescribed answers. So I found my own solutions and understandings based on what I was taught at the Seed.
6-Most importantly- I wanted to get laid and did but that?s another story
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I especially like point no. 6!
Seriously, I think clearing everything with staff, even if it was not meant to inhibit you, did just that. I mean, it was one thing when you were around for a month and might go off and buy a joint or something, but then this attitude just took on a life of it's own.
If you were a long-time graduate, sure, you could do 'whatever you wanted to' but there was a lot of subtle and not so subtle pressure to do and not do, certain things. For instance, quite aside from the dating thing, when I entered the Seed I had attended college for one year previous, and was a straight A student. I'd even had a paper published in a professional journal. But all that was part of 'being into my head' and 'getting my head out of whack' so instead, I worked as a ditch digger, carpenter's assistant, landscaper, printer's helper, medical tech. NOBODY ever asked me or encouraged me to grow - when I discussed going back to school, the staff member gave me a funny look (Bob W.) and later, Patty H. was called in to tell me, "all artists are weird and don't you think that's more of a girl thing?" (I wanted to study art). Hey, when I was taking advanced placement Art History in high school, I was one of the top five students in the country! But I didn't want to be thought of as being better than anyone else, and I was insecure, so I dropped it. I didn't go back to school until I left the Seed at age 26. As I write this I realize I'm bitter about it. I'm fine now but I spent 7 years of my life just doing Seed-approved things like playing football all day or sitting in a rap for hours. The things I really wanted to do had zero credibility with the staff. I didn't read a serious book (or any book), go to a dance or concert, date, travel (accept to visit family for limited periods), form friends outside of the Seed, study any subject of any kind, or anything else for that matter. 7 YEARS!
Phew, I feel better. And I got laid too. And that is a different story.
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You know what else? One of my favorite movies is about an old fashioned, close-knit but patriarchal family. Dad rules the roost. There are two brothers - one the serious, obedient older son, the other the younger playboy. Everything's cool until a long-lost uncle visits, bringing the old family secrets out of the closet and upsetting the balance. All hell breaks loose, the sons fight, the Dad suffers an illness. Peace is restored once the Uncle dies - but everyone is forever changed. The brothers, one that always did whatever dad said, and the other who always rebelled, have come to an understanding.
I loved this movie for years and I now realize that it's kind of a metaphor for the Seed - the benevolent but rigid dad, the good son who stays around, the rebel who leaves, and the uncle, in the form of temptation, who upsets everything but ultimately causes growth.
Sorry for the sophmore year college paper, but the movie's called "To Sleep with Anger" by Charles Burnett. [ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-10-26 17:29 ]
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On 2004-10-26 14:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
WOW!!! this shit sounds like BIG BROTHER at his finest, especially the part about "The Seed was always careful of how people were doing" not even the religious cult i was involved in was this scary. eeeechhh!!
Indeed, it was! Till I was around 13 years old, I had to attend open meetings with my mother. It wasn't much worse than church services or political activities when I was really young. But as I got older, it was pure torture.
One of the reasons why they were so careful about how everyone was doing was that, like any insular community, they feared outside influence more than anything. Everyone present had to be either 100%, cheefully, entheusiastically supportive of the doctrine and methods of the Program (Art, essentially) or be condemned or be banished.
So, they always had a sort of guard at the gate, usually a young man or two on their program, and another checkpoint at the door, usually upper staff.
Every Friday night, as we got closer to the building, my heart sunk further into the pit of my stomach. Every week, I dreded that Art or Shelly or Libby or some other staffer was going to decide that I didn't "look good" (happy to see them, well rested, God forbid my eyes were red, etc.) and I'd land up on front row before the evening was out. Every friend I tried to make, my mother suspected them of being a druggie and I didn't dare challenge her on it.
To seek out the best through the whole Union, we must resort to the information which from the best of men, acting disinterestedly and with the purest motives, is sometimes incorrect.
Thomas Jefferson Letter to Elias Shipman and others of New Haven, July 12, 1801.
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"Hey Gregg being that you asked and do like and respect you even though we don?t always see eye to eye and Taking into account these are things I?m still working on."
your welcome and I respect you too, but someone else asked that.
However, you said "teenager who went to the seed will defend it"
Yep, SOME of them, and the ones that do all sound exactly the same...lets see..They would be dead without the seed..before the seed they were worthless and now they are great. blah blah. Same old same old.
At least with the critics we all have unique stories to tell.
Another thing, many many kids went to the seed, got out, the seed left town and they really never had a lot of issues to deal with and NEVER REALLY UNDERSTOOD THE PROCESSES TO WHICH THEY WERE SUBJECTED TO. They only parrot what they were told so many years ago, that they were worthless and dying before the seed and now that is not true. Balderdash I say!
Further, I think that you can justify all day long why at age 30 8 years after graduating a drug rehab you need permission to date, to marry and to go to a concert, why people are dressing like the leader and claiming he can read minds, and asking permission to get a job or go to school,but to the rest of the world it sounds creepy and cultic...because it is.
But I still respect those that support it even if sometimes it is hard for me to understand. I do try very hard to put myself in your place when some long termer or supporter posts tho.
[ This Message was edited by: Somejoker on 2004-10-26 19:14 ]
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And ANON, you are asking a lot of questions of us. I think it is time you tell us a little about the religious cult you were in....tit for tat.
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On 2004-10-26 15:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
You will also find that people who were exposed to the Seed in their teenage years will defend the Seed and it?s methods.
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I was, and I don't..and neither do many that were there, including many that were "long termers". I guess that is a term we are gonna adopt on this board to describe those there for years and years in the 80s and 90s.
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Reading minds? Yeah, I had forgotten about that. Does anyone remember art and staff talking about being able to see colored auras around people? I often saw auras BEFORE I went to the seed. Acid tends to do that. :silly:
A couple of years after I graduated my program, a friend wanted to put her son into the seed. She was in her late fifties and a single working mother. Her 14 year old son was having lots of attitude problems, minor trouble with the law, drinking and smoking some pot. She knew about the seed from my experience and asked me to call them about putting her son on the program. The only problem was money. She was a factory worker with very limited means. I assured her that money woudn't be an issue. (I had yet to sort out my own feelings about the seed and still had a rosey view of the program in many ways) Surely the seed wouldn't disqualify anyone for lack of funds.
I called and spoke with Libby. I explained my friends situation fully and suggested that she would be able to make a down payment and then make payments for her son to enter the program. I was shocked by Libby's response. Libby flatly refused to take her son without full payment up front. I think it was $5,000 at that time. There was no way this lady could get that kind of money.
Looking back, I consider this fortunate for her son. He grew up, married, had kids, quit drugs and rarely even drinks a beer. But this really caused me to further question the seed. It seems that money was a primary motivation.
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Actually, I remember quite well seeing "auras" around people after staying clean for an amount of time. I also experienced a kind of "Clairvoyancey" which I had no control over and freaked out my friends at the time. I credit this extrodinary sensitivity to having a clean body and mind and rising to another plateau of spirituality. I remember being at a "Seed party" totally clean, and being able to 'hear' all conversations in the room. Of course, it was telepathically relayed to me and was very strange. I didn't know how to handled it so I just shared the experience w/ my very good friends. I was able to quote extraneous conversations verbatim. This was not always a pleasant experience when I heard someone speaking of me in a negative sense but there wasn't much I could do about it because I had no control and never learned HOW to control it. But, the gift (?) lasted about 3 mos. and seemed to disapate as quickly as it manifested.
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Incidentally, forgot to reply re: the suggested program donation to the Seed... My mom DID NOT have the money required and the Seed took me on a "Sliding Scale" basis based on my Mom's income. They (the Seed) NEVER asked for more than my Mom could provide. So, once again, I guess, as a totally f****d up teenager, I considered this my LAST saving grace and give thanks to those at the Seed that allowed me to continue (regardless of my financial situation)
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On 2004-10-30 00:00:00, Robin Martin wrote:
"Actually, I remember quite well seeing "auras" around people after staying clean for an amount of time. I also experienced a kind of "Clairvoyancey" which I had no control over and freaked out my friends at the time. I credit this extrodinary sensitivity to having a clean body and mind and rising to another plateau of spirituality. I remember being at a "Seed party" totally clean, and being able to 'hear' all conversations in the room. Of course, it was telepathically relayed to me and was very strange. I didn't know how to handled it so I just shared the experience w/ my very good friends. I was able to quote extraneous conversations verbatim. This was not always a pleasant experience when I heard someone speaking of me in a negative sense but there wasn't much I could do about it because I had no control and never learned HOW to control it. But, the gift (?) lasted about 3 mos. and seemed to disapate as quickly as it manifested. "
Holy shit Robin you bought the crap hook line and sinker.
See a pyscologist.
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But, the gift (?) lasted about 3 mos. and seemed to disapate as quickly as it manifested.
was this a gift THEY gave you or do you now know that it is a gift from within? a gift which you can cultivate for yourself through various spiritual practices... all of which are seeds for the masses.
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To me I thought it meant I just didn't have to come back. I didn't. The Dunedin click still fucked with my head good. Glad to be rid of the whole bunch. :smokin:
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown, _Peanuts_ [Charles Schulz]
Yeah well you know sometimes these damned wars never seem to end either. That doesn't keep me up at night..Shit I'll g down with all of ya if I have to. I'm not a traitor
_________________
"It's a Secular Crime to Mankind, something they've been speculating too long" :smokin:
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Hey- I still see auras - when I consentrate. Its like a halo. Different energy has different colors (and I'm drug free).
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The "gift" is something all of us are born with and can definitely be cultivated. Our minds are so clogged with daily bullshit that we can't even realize other realms - much less live in them. It was a wonderful experience to be set free of the physical world and to know there are other plateaus we can reach. While I remain very spiritual today, I am not religious. I live my life like any other human being :nworthy: and find comfort in knowing this ISN'T all there is....
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<"My mom DID NOT have the money required and the Seed took me on a "Sliding Scale" basis based on my Mom's income. They (the Seed) NEVER asked for more than my Mom could provide">
Hi robin. Your description is exactly the way I thought it was too. This is why I was so surprised and disillusioned by Libby's absolute insistence upon full up-front payment. Policy must have changed in this regard at some point.
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Hey Marshall, thanks for the confirmation. There's a new topic posted "Money" and I just responded to that. I don't know if the intake counselors received commissions or not but might explain the difference. I know that Suzy accepted me because she KNEW it was my "last stop".
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Yep - different colors for different "gifts" or emotions being experienced at the time.
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I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that this policy simply changed over time. Lots of things did this. I was on the program from april 76 to april 77. I heard the same thing about payment that robin described. However, when I called a few years later, this policy had apparently changed. There was no misunderstanding. Libby was very clear on the point.
Lots of groups start out with good intentions and high ideals only to lose their way at some point. I recall looking at newspaper clippings on the wall in staff's office when I spent the night 'guarding the seed' on 84. There were pictures and articles about the seed from the early days. In one picture, there were lots of guys with long hair and not just on the front row. The dress code also looked pretty liberal. I was especially surprised by one article that stated that most seed kids were of the opinion that pot should be legalized!
This point of view was anathema by the time I was in. Art repeatedly made this plain and sharply criticized Jimmy Carter (who was running for president) for being for decriminalizing marijuana. To read that seed kids would tell a newspaper reporter that they supported legalizing pot was amazing. If we'd said something like that it would have been grounds for a big 'telling you where you're at' stand up or maybe even a reason to start your program over.
The same with guys with long hair or dressing in such a way that was not acceptable to staff. This all changed over the years. I was able to profit from the 'deconditioning' part of the seed. My issue was and is with the 'reconditioning' part. We dropped druggie images and adopted specific seed images. We didn't care what our druggie friends thought of us...but cared enormously what art, staff and fellow seedlings thought. It was still acceptance.
Being straight came to be identical with acting in certain prescribed ways. Having certain hair cuts, clothes. We were to avoid using specific druggie code words but were encouraged to use approved seed lingo. We were told to be ourselves, but their reprogramming resulted in cookie cutter people lacking in individuality to a great degree. There was a certain degree of awareness that resulted from all of this. But even this was a warped sort of awareness. I was always very mindful of any actions or thoughts that might be at odds with the 'party line' of the seed. Living in a totalitarian state, one is also very 'aware' of not saying or doing anything that would put you in the gulag or cause you to be an outcaste. Unfortunately, questioning the seed ideology was strongly discouraged and this itself tended to limit real growth. Luckily, I was eventually able to see and make use of the good while discarding the bad or useless. If the seed had stayed closer to it's AA roots without all the cultic trappings, I would likely consider it a positive experience to this day. From my pov now, the negatives outweighed the positives.