Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => News Items => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 11, 2004, 04:10:00 AM
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I'd like to start off by saying whoever started bashing AARC and the 12 steps is a fucking idiot. They both saved my ass. If it wasn't for them i'd be out there doing some shitty things. If AARC didn't work for you, you don't get my sympathy. "Boo hoo, i didn't even try. It's all Dr. Vause's fault." Shut the fuck up. You don't know what your talking about. Recovery and A.A. will always be there for you if you want a better life, but stop saying that shit. I'm sitting here thinking to myself, "what a bunch of fuckin moron's." So on that note, i'm never visiting this site again.
ADRIAN MORRISON[ This Message was edited by: velvet2000 on 2004-10-29 21:55 ]
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:lol:
So are you trying to say that AARC got made you into the angry psychopath you seem to portray here in your writings???
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When the mindwash wears off, the sobriety is tossed into the gutter, and the questions begin...
You'll be back.
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When the mindwash wears off? When the sobriety is tossed into the gutter? Seriously, why are you even writing that crap? Go do something productive. It sounds like your life is a mess and so you thought you'd find an easy target to blame it on. AARC was a wonderful experience for me, life changing. I don't care really what you think. If AARC didn't help you, maybe you should go find something that will huh? or maybe you should waste your time writing immature postings on the internet about how bad AARC is. OH WAIT, you're already doing that. Is that making you feel any better? I hope it is because you're putting an awful lot of time into it. I agree with Adrian, this place is stupid and a compleate waste of my time. God Bless.
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Then go away, simply go away.
"Immature"?...I'll admit to that.
"Productive"?...I am posting from work, so what I am doing (when not reading your posts) is in fact productive.
"Mess"?...No, I wouldn't say my life is a mess.
"Easy target"?...BINGO, teenage mindwarping mills and those that defend them are in fact easy targets.
"Time"?...It takes me no more time to tell what I think than it does for you to defend your program.
I am glad AARC was beneficial for you.
When the mindwash wears off, when your own sobriety is drop kicked into the gutter, and you start to question the teachings of your program....You, too, will come here to have your questions answered.
If you feel this place is a stupid waste of YOUR time, why do YOU read and post here?
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I would just like to say that this board has reached an all time low. The comment of "when your sobriety is dropped kicked to the gutter..." has got to be the funniest thing I have heard in a long time. From what I understand AARC is about teaching the 12 steps and then very clear that if you want to stay sober go to AA and live in recovery. Now if you are not sober and want to blame AARC go right ahead. Really it is something entertaining to read in the morning. However you fuckin idiot if you go to AA your sobriety won't be dropped kicked. I am not a big fan of what goes on at AARC and think that that part of my life is over with and it is time to move on. However I am sober and happy and that is thanks to AA and AARC and if you aren't try a meeting...
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I found out about this site a while ago, I've been reading what goes on here. It is at an all time low but it will get worse. That's what it does, just get worse.
People posting here mostly just want to justify their stoned out lives. That's what true but below the surface. They don't admit it up front but when you watch thier posts over time it's pretty obvious. All the righteous indignation over one school or another it's really about somebody took away their drugs and they've been pissed off ever since
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My OPINION, allow me to repeat...my OPINION after spending over 20 years in the field, after spending countless hours in both undergrad and grad school pouring over the academics surrounding such issues, and lastly after experiencing what I did in my own stepcraft based program, it is my OPINION that sobriety is analagous to your favorite drinking glass in the kitchen. It may look pretty as it sits in your favorite cabinet (cupboard in Canada?), but the days are numbered. It is destined to fall to the ground and shatter into a million pieces, eventually. You can try to care for the fragility of it all day and night, but eventually and more than likely, the glass will be broken. If you die sober, kudos to you. You should be commended for living a life of conviction and determination. However, if you do not, then you fall into a categorically common statistic.
I hope your sobriety works for you and I am glad that AARC has played such a significant part in improving your quality of life. However, frankly I think (again, my own OPINION) is that AARC has adopted some very controversial and possibly even dangerous treatment modalities used to treat adolescents in need.
Maybe indeed this board has gone downhill as you mentioned, but it is undeniable that it provides for a great medium for those in favor of the program to speak out against those opposed to it and vice versa. Yes yes?
You suggested a meeting...I haven't the time, I have an appointment to smoke a joint as fat as your left arm in about an hour.
:smokin:
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Who cares about your 20 years in the field, who cares about your statistics? I am talking about taking care of your own life, the only one you've got and of living it instead of hiding behind drugs or booze or statistics to explain why it just isn't possible to beat the odds or the predictions of losers like you. People,you can do this!!! Don't let the cult of failure and weakness at this site convince you otherwise. And I don't think the comment about the joint is half an hour is a joke your way of thinking says that it isn't
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Your are in favor of AARC and you mention "cult" when you refer to this site????? You ARE wayyy jaded!!! I didn't mention 20 years etc to impress you by any means (pffft!), I mentioned what I have learned and what I believe in my own humble OPINION!
I agree with you, odds are meant to be broken and I hope you remain sober as long as you desire to do so. Steps, big books, cigg smoking, and coffee chugging cross addicted recovering alcoholics make me break out in a rash. If it makes you comfortable, grrreat! Different strokes for different folks. Forums like this are about celebrating differences. I beg to differ with your philosophy and AARC rationale. We disagree, whoopee shit!
You go to a meeting and I'll go smoke a joint.
My comment about the joint was NOT a joke at all, I don't mean to be funny. It's a quality of life that I choose of my own freewill sans influence or coercion.
I am late for TBPITW, gotta go~~
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It is a cult---this cult of negativity that people like you try to spin as just another choice--so to you it's all the same--getting loaded every night, getting high every day, going to a meeting, they're just all equal choices, llike french fries or onion rings with your big mac.
I don't buy it, they're not all equal choices. Because getting loaded or high (you'll say it's moderate, once in a while stuff, thanks I've heard that one before), it's wasting your life and your future. Going to a meeting isn't a guarantee but it might lead somewhere good, just by going you are trying to do something real and positive. You're fighting for your future.
Of course you want to believe it's all the same, Mr. 20 years of experience, of course you hate these schools that make people look inside and offer people a future--if you didn't hate them and call them cults and whatever else you want to diver with, you might have to look at your own life and what your 20 years have taught you
I don't think you are up for doing that
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Fuck moderation~who says my dope smoking is in moderation? I smoke heavily!! "Wasting time and wasting my future"? I don't think so, I think my smoking time is time well spent.
Personally speaking, and speaking strictly for myself, going to a meeting is a horrendous waste of my particular time. I am not an alcoholic, so I don't fit the mold with a room full of recovering folks discussing what they lost and what they are getting back in life. If I lost a leg, I wouldn't want to go and sit in a room with a bunch of other one legged men talking about how they lost their leg and how they are coping to life without that leg...It's not me. I know that that particular program works for some and if it does for you...Grrreat as I mentioned before. This isn't about AA. It's about your defense of AARC and about your position that this bbs is a waste of time...
I never said I "hated" anything....???
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I bet you are too----and I don't much care if you are or not but there are kids who still have a chance not be go down that road.If a school or a program like AARC helps them-- more power to the parent who doesn't let a kid end up like you, bragging about how smoked up he can get and how it's all good--it isn't and you;ve been wasted too long to even know it
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A "denial addict"???? I'll add that to my list of shortcomings. No denial here, I smoke and I am happy. Smoking is definitely NOT for everyone. I would not advise for the world to smoke as I do, it is not for everyone. Just as drinking, even fried chicken is not for everyone.
If the "kids" you mention never go down the road I have, I think that is super. It has taken much time and effort to create a balance in my life that I am happy about today. My parents are proud, believe it! They are happy, I am happy, my boss is happy, my pets are happy, my dope dealer is happy.
What else matters?
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To the moron who that smokes dope. All that I think is it is pretty sad that you need to come onto a board like this and try to tell everyone how great your life is. I think that in itself is an indication of how life is really going. The fact that you need to try and convince a bunch of people that you do not know and who honeslty don't care who you are is really sad. It is one thing to come on here and whine about how your life is going, but to be you I think is one of the sadest things I have read in along time. I am a parent of one of those kids who needs the help but hasen't been able to mantain sobriety and I think that it is Jackasses like you that are to blame. Because the same bullshit that you spout off they try and tell me on a daily basis. I still love my child but I am definetly not proud of him. I also run a business and if any of my employees are caught using drugs there ass is fired. So get real idiot and go back to your lonely existence. I tihnk it is real funny that you have a pet that is happy for you but not a spouse.....wonder why?
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On 2004-10-14 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"A "denial addict"???? I'll add that to my list of shortcomings. No denial here, I smoke and I am happy. Smoking is definitely NOT for everyone. I would not advise for the world to smoke as I do, it is not for everyone. Just as drinking, even fried chicken is not for everyone.
If the "kids" you mention never go down the road I have, I think that is super. It has taken much time and effort to create a balance in my life that I am happy about today. My parents are proud, believe it! They are happy, I am happy, my boss is happy, my pets are happy, my dope dealer is happy.
What else matters? "
You ARE what you SMOKE! :lol:
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"I am a parent of one of those kids who needs the help but hasen't been able to mantain sobriety and I think that it is Jackasses like you that are to blame. Because the same bullshit that you spout off they try and tell me on a daily basis. I still love my child but I am definetly not proud of him."
This is one of the most horrible things I've read in my life. Your child does something you disagree with and you loose pride in him? If your child is using drugs hamrful to his body shouldn't you just worry for him but continue to be proud of his strengths of character, morals, intelligence, or everything else that he might be good at? Do you think he feels that? Has your love been conditional? Have you always lost pride in him when he does what you feel is a failure? And you blame the fact that there are potheads out there for his difficulties?
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You said:
On 2004-10-14 11:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"To the moron who that smokes dope. All that I think is it is pretty sad that you need to come onto a board like this and try to tell everyone how great your life is. I think that in itself is an indication of how life is really going. The fact that you need to try and convince a bunch of people that you do not know and who honeslty don't care who you are is really sad. It is one thing to come on here and whine about how your life is going, but to be you I think is one of the sadest things I have read in along time. I am a parent of one of those kids who needs the help but hasen't been able to mantain sobriety and I think that it is Jackasses like you that are to blame. Because the same bullshit that you spout off they try and tell me on a daily basis. I still love my child but I am definetly not proud of him. I also run a business and if any of my employees are caught using drugs there ass is fired. So get real idiot and go back to your lonely existence. I tihnk it is real funny that you have a pet that is happy for you but not a spouse.....wonder why?
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Allow me to remind you, I did not come here at all to discuss how great my life is, I said what I said only in defense of comments directed at me such as "losers like you" and "wasting your life and your future" and "you might have to look at your own life" and "more power to the parent who doesn't let a kid end up like you" not to mention "you've been wasted too long". I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, as a matter of fact, I have stated time and again that what I inferred was my own OPINION and that dope smoking is indeed NOT for everyone. YOU insist on calling me "moron", "jackass", and "idiot"--if your parenting mirrors your intellect, no wonder your kid does drugs! I smoke marijuana, I don't fondle children, your hostility is as inappropriate as it is immature. My apologies for not mentioning my spouse in the former post, I have been happily married since 1991, she is happy too. "Lonely"...who said I was lonely?
You continue to read words in my posts that aren't there. When you abandon the program philosophy and return to the loving relationship that you had for your child the moment he/she was born, maybe that love will prevail and your family discord will subside. I wish you the best of luck.
You failed to answer my question...if all is happy in life, and I smoke marijuana WHAT ELSE MATTERS? I challenge you to answer that question...
Thank Heaven I have good parents, It is crackpots like you that remind me to appreciate them even more.
and "You are what you smoke", shall we reduce this conversation to a second grade playground battle of words? Would it be commensurate for me to say "sticks and stones...."?
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On 2004-10-14 11:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"To the moron who that smokes dope.
Say n'more, say n'more! :rofl: Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
--Unanimous
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Smarten up why don't youGinger, a grammar error or a mispelled word makes no difference in that anon poster's message---which is right on target--review your own posts if you get such a charge out of careless writing mistakes. Mean-spirited, ungenuine piece of work that you are
You and the moron referred to are drugged out drug culture groupies. That's the point--i might feel sorry for you if the crap you're pushing didn't hurt so many kids.
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On 2004-10-15 05:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
""I am a parent of one of those kids who needs the help but hasen't been able to mantain sobriety and I think that it is Jackasses like you that are to blame. Because the same bullshit that you spout off they try and tell me on a daily basis. I still love my child but I am definetly not proud of him."
This is one of the most horrible things I've read in my life. Your child does something you disagree with and you loose pride in him? If your child is using drugs hamrful to his body shouldn't you just worry for him but continue to be proud of his strengths of character, morals, intelligence, or everything else that he might be good at? Do you think he feels that? Has your love been conditional? Have you always lost pride in him when he does what you feel is a failure? And you blame the fact that there are potheads out there for his difficulties? "
Oh c'mon Anon --- GET REAL! There's a LOT of teens out there that make HORRIBLE choices and NO parent would be PROUD! MUCH different from LOVING your child... they don't go HAND in HAND! Guess I'm not surprised at your post though... it's a fairly typical one from the mentality of MOST of the posters on this site.
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On 2004-10-15 12:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Smarten up why don't youGinger, a grammar error or a mispelled word makes no difference in that anon poster's message---which is right on target--review your own posts if you get such a charge out of careless writing mistakes. Mean-spirited, ungenuine piece of work that you are
You and the moron referred to are drugged out drug culture groupies. That's the point--i might feel sorry for you if the crap you're pushing didn't hurt so many kids."
I just think it's funny as hell when people demonstrate, as you have done, the very characteristics you project onto others. You assume all sorts of things about me and others; and especially about anyone who uses cannabis.
This makes me wonder if your kid actually had any kind of serious problem to begin with or if you just assumed that he did, or would eventually, when you found out he smoked pot.
That is, after all, how a lot of these kids land up in these places. The Teevee even tells us, nightly, to call a substance abuse referral line if we merely suspect that our own kids might be using unpatented drugs. Thankfully for our kids, most of us who've been through Synanon based programs know better. At least we got something of value from the Program.
He, who has nothing, and who himself belongs to another, must be defended by him, whose property he is, and needs no arms. But he, who thinks he is his own master, and has what he can call his own, ought to have arms to defend himself, and what he possesses; else he lives precariously, and at discretion.
--James Burgh 1774
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Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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Antigen writes:
" You assume all sorts of things about me and others; and especially about anyone who uses cannabis.
This makes me wonder if your kid actually had any kind of serious problem to begin with or if you just assumed that he did, or would eventually, when you found out he smoked pot. "
And we ALL know that "pot" is used by our most successful citizens. Oh wait... it's usually local thugs, drop outs and criminals that use it, that I hear about. Makes it SO appealing. I think it's sad that people feel they NEED to use this ILLEGAL drug, to make them feel better, or relax, or whatever the excuse may be. (It would explain some of the posts here --- drug-induced. Certainly not CLEAR minded thoughts.)
Yes, folks, smoking pot most always leads to better things in life... NOT.
I certainly don't need nor want for it.
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Thugs and no-good layabouts, eh?
How about Pierre Berton as your typical pothead?
AT 84, BERTON REVEALS NOT ALL JOINTS PAINFUL
Teaches Tv Viewers How To Roll Doobie On Cbc Next Week. Celebrated Author Says He First Turned To Pot In His 40s
For decades, Canadians relied on Pierre Berton for the straight dope.
But no one would have guessed from the bow ties, the silver comb-over and the stiff upper lip that the legendary Canadian broadcaster and newsman actually smoked the stuff.
Berton, now 84, told the Toronto Star that he's been a recreational marijuana smoker since the '60s, and will show Canadian audiences how to roll a joint on Monday's season premiere of Rick Mercer's Monday Report.
"I enjoy the odd joint but I never go overboard," said Berton, who conceded that he is actually "terrible" at rolling, and prefers to use a small device to facilitate the process. "I smoke about once a month to help me relax."
Berton, a former editor and columnist at the Star, became a fixture in Canadian media throughout the '60s and '70s as host of the Pierre Berton Show. He's the author of such titles as 1967: The Last Good Year and Farewell to the Twentieth Century.
And while he has no qualms about discussing it, Berton doesn't attribute any of his success in Canadian media to his marijuana use.
"While I'm working I never smoke or drink anything," he said.
Berton appears in a regular segment of Mercer's show called Celebrity Tip, in which high profile Canadians explain how to perform simple household functions.
"First of all, you need a good rolling surface," Berton deadpans in the clip as he guides a young assistant. "Start in the middle, roll outwards, and let your thumbs do most of the work ..."
Once complete, Berton scrutinized the joint and pronounces his approval: "firm but not too firm."
Berton doesn't recall the specifics of his first experimentation with dope, but says it happened when he was in his 40's. Before then, he had no access to the drug.
"When I was in my 20s, the only thing we had was liquor," he said. "I'd never heard of marijuana. But I gave it a couple tries in the '60s and it was all right."
While Berton isn't interested in becoming Canada's next poster boy for the legalization of marijuana, he believes our current laws are dysfunctional and outdated.
"We could save the taxpayers an enormous amount of money by ( legalizing marijuana )," he said. "We've been putting people in jails for planting the stuff for years and it hasn't worked. It's the same as prohibition in the U.S. in the '30s. All it does is create an enormous criminal body."
"If people who are of age want to have a smoke let them have a smoke, I say."
The federal government plans to re-introduce a bill in the near future that would remove the criminal penalty for possession of 30 grams of marijuana, which, depending on how you roll them, amounts to several joints.
Mercer said yesterday that the item filmed Wednesday was "quite a coup" for his show that he was thrilled just to meet Berton, let alone spend a couple of hours in his home, discussing how to avoid "toke burns."
The show's host added he didn't know whether it was real pot ( "on the show you don't see anyone smoking anything" ) and he professed not to remember whether it was provided by the show's staff or the great author.
Berton doesn't expect his joint-rolling tutorial or his pronouncement to cause his reputation to go up in smoke.
"I suppose people will get a kick out of it," he said. "But I've reached the stage in life where I don't give a damn what I say or what people think."
Rick Mercer's Monday Report airs on CBC Monday at 9 pm.
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Warning Signs of Potentially Abusive Facilities
1. The facility is not licensed.
(Well, actually, we know Family & Children's Services licensed AARC in 2000, but you must remember that the Child Welfare system in Alberta was said to be so broken that it cannot be fixed by the Children's Advocate in a report years before.)
2. Verbal and/or written communication between the child and his parents, siblings, grandparents, etc. is prohibited, restricted, or monitored on any level.
3. The facility requires that the parents and/or child sign a form releasing the program of liability in the event of injury to the child.
4. The program requests/demands/recommends that they have legal custody of children.
5. The program requires that children live in foster or "host" homes instead of allowing them to reside with their parents.
6. The child or parent or forbidden from discussing the daily happenings at the facility. Often this policy is called "confidentiality."
7. The child is denied access to a telephone.
8. Phone calls between children and parents are monitored.
9. The program uses confrontational therapy.
10. Parents must fulfill requirements of the facility before being permitted to visit their own children.
11. The facility is located outside the jurisdiction of the United States.
12. Children are restrained or otherwise physically prevented from leaving the facility.
13. The staff includes former students/clients of the facility.
14. Staff members claim that self-injury or cutting/carving on ones body is normal behavior for a child in treatment.
15. Parents are not allowed to remain with their child during the entire intake/entry process.
16. The program inflicts physical punishments on children such as exercising for extended periods of time, bizarre cleaning rituals (ie scrubbing floors with a toothbrush) or food restrictions.
17. The program uses humiliation to "break them down."
18. The program forces children to remain in solitary confinement/isolation/time-out for an unspecified amount of time.
19. Reading materials are prohibited or severely limited.
20. The facility does not have a clearly visible sign outside the building or descriptions of their location are vague.
21. The facility claims to modify behavior, yet has no licensed therapists on staff.
22. A licensed doctor or registered nurse is not present at any time during normal operating hours.
23. Current clients/students participate in the intake/entry process.
24. Staff members offer to help parents obtain a court order forcing the child into, or keeping the child in, the facility.
25. Children are observed while bathing, dressing, or using the toilet on any level of the program.
26. The facility claims to treat drug abuse, but does not conduct a drug screen prior to entry.
27. The facility does not allow children to follow their religion of choice.
28. Staff members must "approve" family members, siblings, friends, or employment.
29. Children are not afforded an education in accordance with state requirements.
30. Medication is recommended, prescribed, approved, or dispensed by anyone other than a medical doctor (MD).
31. Children are denied medications that have been prescribed by an MD.
32. Staff members, admissions personnel, referrers, etc. make statements indicating that "your child will die without" the program.
33. Children escort/supervise other children.
34. Children have to "earn" the "right" to speak during group/therapy sessions.
35. Children are denied outside activities on any level/phase.
36. Staff members must approve the withdrawal of children from the facility.
37. The facility expects total and unquestioned support of parents.
38. Children on any level/phase are forbidden to speak to other children in the facility.
ISAC will add to this list as necessary.
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On 2004-10-15 20:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
Yes, folks, smoking pot most always leads to better things in life... NOT.
I certainly don't need nor want for it.
Interestinmg about Pierre Berton. Here are a few more VIPs.
http://www.veryimportantpotheads.com/site/NOTES.htm (http://www.veryimportantpotheads.com/site/NOTES.htm)
But it appears we've struck a nerve w/ our strident Program parent. Did I guess right? The kid's doing fine, except that he's just like around half of all highschool kids in that he doesn't just say "NO"?
If you ask me, you probably could stand to smoke up, as Salvador Dali said, just once. You might find it a good way to relax once in awhile. At the very least, you'd find out that all that about it being a horribly dangerous, addictive drug is nothing but bunk.
A vote for GW is a vote for America's Führer.
--Anonymous (it's best that way...)
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I'd just like to remind everyone that the purpose of this board is to support survivors of AARC and similar facilities, and to educate about AARC and cult recovery.
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On 2004-10-16 08:52:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2004-10-15 20:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
Yes, folks, smoking pot most always leads to better things in life... NOT.
I certainly don't need nor want for it.
Interestinmg about Pierre Berton. Here are a few more VIPs.
http://www.veryimportantpotheads.com/site/NOTES.htm (http://www.veryimportantpotheads.com/site/NOTES.htm)
But it appears we've struck a nerve w/ our strident Program parent. Did I guess right? The kid's doing fine, except that he's just like around half of all highschool kids in that he doesn't just say "NO"?
If you ask me, you probably could stand to smoke up, as Salvador Dali said, just once. You might find it a good way to relax once in awhile. At the very least, you'd find out that all that about it being a horribly dangerous, addictive drug is nothing but bunk.
A vote for GW is a vote for America's Führer.
--Anonymous (it's best that way...)
"
lol - I'm not a program parent. I smoked it before I entered a program (over 20 years ago), so I know what it's like.
Just no need to use illegal means to "relax" or have fun at this poit in life. I've grown up and know better.
As for your list of PotHeads -- lol... interesting, but not impressive. Courtney Love?! Now THERE'S an example of a COMPLETE mess! Her poor child. You at LEAST should have edited her out (if you wanted to make a better point)!
I relax under the Florida sunshine, sipping ice tea, or at night with lit candles and a good CD or book. No need to inhale chemicals and smoke into my lungs. Yuck I'm an example to my children. Don't have to justify a need for drugs. Thank GOD.
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Ditto to everything you said about feeling great without breaking the law or abusing your body with substances.
To Antigen and the others currently defending the high life style of Pierre Berton or whoever---if this is what you believe--- that illegal drugs are a positive thing, why pussy-foot around talking about Courtney Love--say itoutright, that you, yourselves are recreational drug users if that's the case.
That'd full disclosure to parents who read this site---they can decide if your rants against AARC and other schools have merit---or are justifications for your own flawed ways.
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Nope, not the point. You skip the less easily dismissed examples, such as Carl Sagan, Montel Williams, Ross Rebagliati, Margaret Mead, Jack London, etc. There are many others. How about Mark Stepnowski? None of these people could rightly be described as foggy headed slackers in need of radical residential treatment.
If you're sending your kid to AARC just because they smoke pot, you're making a huge mistake. They may (or may not) come out abstaining from pot. But they're more likely to end up working endless hours for Vause for slave wages than to become a NFL star or award winning writer.
Forgiveness is divine. Forgetfulness is just a mental dysfunction.
--Antigen
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HamiltonF proves the point of addressing adolescent addiction: Pierre Burton started smoking Dope when in his 40s! He had success, coping mechanisms, and only does it once a month! I am sober 12 years, started smoking dope as a child and led a life of crime for over 10 years by the time I got to AARC. My drug of choice, by far, was pot. Adults who start drinking or getting high smoking the occaissional joint are not nearly in as much danger of addiction as a 12 or 13 year old.
As for the point someone raised about a natural high, it took me years of sobriety until I discovered meditation, which is recommended by AA. I have had incredible moments, and even days since starting meditation. I was inspired by Noah Levine, in his book Dharma PunX. It costs me nothing to meditate, has proven benefits (ask the Dalai Lama), and has just been a pleasure.
Just a few thoughts.
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That doesn't prove anything of the sort. But there is no question that adolescent use of illicit substances may be harmful. But even then, it does not inevitably lead to deathdiseasecrimeorandorinsanity. Alcohol has just as much chance of leading to these as marijuana - when consumed in back streets or behind a parent's back. But it's the illegality , the set and setting that has to do with that.
The "addictive potential" of pot is quite low, even with adolescents. But the circumstances in which it may be consumed, because of its illegality, (and possibly because of panicky parents) is what is dangerous.
As a parent I can tell you that I would be far more concerned if my child were smoking ordinary cigarettes or drinking secretly than smoking pot.
And I sure as hell wouldn't buy into Dean Vause's propaganda that those or any illicit drug was a sure pathway to self-destruction and life on the streets. Kids experiment, so the first thing to remember if you find the indicia of drug taking that AARC tell you about is DON'T PANIC.
Remember, the vast majority of kids who experiment with drugs either grow out of it altogether or moderate their use to such an extent that it does not interfere with their ability to function.
So, for every Pierre Burton that you say proves the problem of adolescent addiction, I can produce dozens of "successful" professionals who will admit to adolescent use of pot, LSD and a few who even used cocaine. This is not to approve of it but simply to emphasize that the cataclysmic thinking of those under the influence of Dean Vause's ideology gives rise to a cure that is worse than the disease. For what this perverted form of "therapy" does is to completely abrogate the function of free-will.
Judging from the self-righteous vituperative language of those on this thread who support AARC, I would suggest the one thing that AARC has failed to do is provide any insight for its victims into their own behaviour. Rather, by breaking them down (as I caught a glimpse of in "Recovering Crystal") AARC is the very opposite of therapy. Purely and simply it is indeed, cultic brainwashing.
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"So, for every Pierre Burton that you say proves the problem of adolescent addiction, I can produce dozens of "successful" professionals who will admit to adolescent use of pot, LSD and a few who even used cocaine. This is not to approve of it but simply to emphasize that the cataclysmic thinking of those under the influence of Dean Vause's ideology gives rise to a cure that is worse than the disease. For what this perverted form of "therapy" does is to completely abrogate the function of free-will. "
Riiight....and I can produce thousands of hardened, violent criminals who will admit to the adolescent use of pot, LSD, cocaine and MDMA. When I was smoking dope (I rarely smoked cigarettes), and drinking, I committed a home invasion, sold drugs to kids, bought and sold firearms, committed kidnapping, extorsion and assault. No one brainwashed me at AARC into acknowledging my addiction, I merely related past incidents, from beginning to end, and saw how every one related to my daily using. AARC merely extend what happens in 12 step meetings every day - talking about what it was like,what happened, and what it's like now.
As for preferring your kids use marijuana rather than cigarettes, that is like saying I would prefer my kid to use cyanide over arsenic - why use anything at all? And what age would you allow your children to get high? And should they drive, operate machinery or fly? It's difficult enough to test impaired drivers for alcohol, let alone marijuana.
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On 2004-10-17 07:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
Riiight....and I can produce thousands of hardened, violent criminals who will admit to the adolescent use of pot, LSD, cocaine and MDMA.
And if you ask them, you'll find that most of them also drank milk. Correlation is not causation. The trouble w/ your theory is the hundreds of millions of people who use these drugs and don't ever commit crimes against anybody.
When I was smoking dope (I rarely smoked cigarettes), and drinking, I committed a home invasion, sold drugs to kids, bought and sold firearms, committed kidnapping, extorsion and assault.
And when I and my friends were smoking pot, we didn't do any of those things. We went to school, got decent grades then moved on to work and adult responsibilities. It's pathetic and weak for you to blame drugs for your own shameful behavior.
It's difficult enough to test impaired drivers for alcohol, let alone marijuana. "
Actually, Canadian, Dutch and Swedish studies all concluded that marijuana is less impairing than alcohol. Now, that said, I wouldn't want my kids driving impaired at all. And I'd bet good money (not to mention non-material things of real value) that I have more influence and credibility w/ my kids by telling them the truth than you do by trying to pass off your brand of hysteria as adult wisdom.
A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another; shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement
Thomas Jefferson
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On 2004-10-16 18:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
Adults who start drinking or getting high smoking the occaissional joint are not nearly in as much danger of addiction as a 12 or 13 year old.
Actually, that's a wash too. Turns out that alcoholism is rare in cultures that teach their children responsible alcohol use from childhood. It's in our modern European cultures, where drinking is kept in the pubs, away from the children, banished on Sundays where we have problems. The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.
--William Safire
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On 2004-10-17 08:05:00, Antigen wrote:
And if you ask them, you'll find that most of them also drank milk. Correlation is not causation. The trouble w/ your theory is the hundreds of millions of people who use these drugs and don't ever commit crimes against anybody.
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
And when I and my friends were smoking pot, we didn't do any of those things. We went to school, got decent grades then moved on to work and adult responsibilities. It's pathetic and weak for you to blame drugs for your own shameful behavior.
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
And I'd bet good money (not to mention non-material things of real value) that I have more influence and credibility w/ my kids by telling them the truth than you do by trying to pass off your brand of hysteria as adult wisdom.
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: This has been proven over and over again. My kids are a prime example. They believed me about the real dangers because I didn't try to fill their heads with all the propoganda that is so easily swallowed by the rest of the sheep.Don't laugh when you leave this courtroom, thinking you have beat the system because you have looked these things up yourself. We are going to get you down the road.
Washington Superior CourtJudge Rebecca Baker
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"And when I and my friends were smoking pot, we didn't do any of those things. We went to school, got decent grades then moved on to work and adult responsibilities. It's pathetic and weak for you to blame drugs for your own shameful behavior. "
Good for you! Then maybe you weren't an addict! I am. As for blaming drugs for my "shameful behavior" you are right in one respect - it was shameful. And drugs dulled the feelings of shame enough for me to keep making those choices, as well as sapping my ambition to work hard and act responsibly. THAT IS THE NATURE OF ADDCITON. ask any street prostitute, petty thief or criminal who uses drugs. They do it feel better, but at the same time it traps them.
funny how when I stopped doing drugs I had ambition, energy, drive, motivation and became a thinking, ambitious, caring person. I volunteer with incarcerated youth, have a great child, happy marriage, good carrier. A correlation to using and then stopping drugs? You bet. And I hate milk, never drank it.
Now, to be clear, I am not a prohibitionist. I blew my chance to drink or smoke dope in moderation because it became my coping mechanism at a young age. I just want kids to develope enough sense of self and an ability to cope before they start experimenting with any mind altering substance.
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I agree with most of what the last anon poster says..and maybe prohibition is not a realistic way to go,at least with adults even if smoking up or whatever is generally bad for them...but for god's sake people use your common sense...don't worry about whether some "famous" person who you don't know anything about personally did or did not use drugs at some point in time.
Look to your own life and experience..if you do, how can you possibly not see that substance use especially in the early and mid teens is a recipe for disaster? Even if there are exceptions to the rule, this is the rule
And what would make the drug-pushing posters here not be able to see it, except denial and self-justification...really shameful behavior
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On 2004-10-17 13:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
Look to your own life and experience..if you do, how can you possibly not see that substance use especially in the early and mid teens is a recipe for disaster? Even if there are exceptions to the rule, this is the rule
And what would make the drug-pushing posters here not be able to see it, except denial and self-justification...really shameful behavior
Well, when I look at my life and the people I've known over half a lifetime, I don't see any correlation between pot smoking and failure. It's not denial, it's just what the evidence shows. I can't think of half a dozen people who I know now who never smoked pot and, really, very few who didn't do more than that. And yet most of the people I know who have serious depression and trouble managing their lives are people who I know through the Program.
Second, the last people who want prohibition to end are dope pushers! For all the same reasons why Al Capone and Babyface Nelson went into the liquor business, dope dealers can only make money as long as their stock in trade is illegal. That's why there are dope dealers in schools but no bootleggers anymore. Who the hell's going to pay exhorbinant prices for some home brewed substance of unknown origin if they have to compete w/ legal, regulated distributors?
It is one of the most beautiful compensations of life, that no man can sincerely try to help another without helping himself.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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On 2004-10-17 09:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
Now, to be clear, I am not a prohibitionist. I blew my chance to drink or smoke dope in moderation because it became my coping mechanism at a young age. I just want kids to develope enough sense of self and an ability to cope before they start experimenting with any mind altering substance.
Well, I don't think we really dissagree on all that much. I do think there are healthier, more reasonable ways to view substance abuse and to manage the risks than AA's powerful drug/powerless user model. The fact is that most people, by far, use mind altering drugs. Ya' have to count the pharmaceuticals here, as the only difference is in whether or not you've acqured professional permission; set and setting. And most of these people never have major problems with it. Those who do either, like you, swear abstinance forever or learn moderation without any kind of formal intervention or treatment. Just about the entire WWII generation dealt w/ ecconomic depression and poverty, PTSD (formerly known as "shell shock") and all of life's trevails w/o any formal intervention.
Even heroin is nowhere near as universally addictive as the authorities seem to believe. It's a true fact that somewhere around 70% of Vietnam vets used heroin while in that country. But when they came home, removed from the daily horror and the habit, they simply never bothered to look for a local connection. I would imagine that a good many of them puked and sweated for awhile. Not saying it's effortless. Just that the relatively new concept that an addict cannot end or manage their own addiction w/o some kind of formal intervention doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Now this begs many questions. Why do we spend billions of dollars per year for decades now trying to control addictive or abusive behavior through coercive means? It hasn't had any of the intended effect and certainly has engenderd a great deal of suffering, crime and illness.
Aside from a change of set and setting, how exactly does the Program "work"? Is it really necessary to humiliate adolescent kids by demanding confessions, often of a sexual nature, before a group of their peers? And what about the damage done when the staff or group get carried away, as they invariably do, and insist on a false confession?
I'm not saying that you, personally, didn't need a change of direction or a fresh start of some kind. Just that you probably could have done w/o the weird cultic side-show.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is
proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in
everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
--Herbert Spencer
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Thanks for the slight concession - believe me, I only talk about my own experience. As far as AARC is concerned, the majority of kids that I have seen who end up there are end of the line. It wasn't the first place, usually not the second or third. They often come from jail or the psych ward. I know all about the "cultish" treatment center, started and promoted and profitted by frauds like Miller Newton. AARC is not like that. It worked well for me, and I know that I needed immersion in a safe place where I could concentrate on recovery. I needed to be out of the environment I was in.
My parents where psychologists, very knowledgable about addiction and other problems, and certainly would not have participated in a cultish program. I was almost 22, and no dummy, and I could have left any time. I stayed, it worked, and I am happy.
I enjoy the discussions on harmfulness of drugs and the effectiveness of various kinds of treatment. It would be great to take the harsh words and judgement out of the discussion, so it could be more beneficial for every one. There is research to prove any opinion, I would be more interested in personal experiences, before, during and after "treatment".
One more comment regarding AARC: if it had created harm similar to KIDS, the SEED, Straight, etc, then after over 12 years, and hundreds of graduates and their families, where are the lawsuits? I am sure lots of Ambulance chasers would like the chance to line their pockets at AARCs expense if the could find evidence of wrong doing. It happened to all those US based centers.
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On 2004-10-17 13:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I agree with most of what the last anon poster says..and maybe prohibition is not a realistic way to go,at least with adults even if smoking up or whatever is generally bad for them...but for god's sake people use your common sense...don't worry about whether some "famous" person who you don't know anything about personally did or did not use drugs at some point in time.
It's really interesting to see how Anon changes his tune as, one by one his misconceptions are exposed. But he still does not comprehend that "smoking up" ain't necessarily "generally bad" for you bad for you any more than is a glass of wine with your meal. He still works from mthe false assumption that all drug use is abuse. And I do not need to go to "famous" people as I know many "successful" people personally who have smoked up with no ill effects. Indeed. there are some who would describe the experience as being something that opened doors of perception they otherwise would not have experienced.
Look to your own life and experience..if you do, how can you possibly not see that substance use especially in the early and mid teens is a recipe for disaster? Even if there are exceptions to the rule, this is the rule
Substance use (as opposed to abuse (or misuse)) as a recipe for disaster? Perhaps.
Perhaps as Antigen suggests, you take the "USE" of prescription pharmeceuticals as being a recipe for disaster. Now some kid who is taken into care by Child Welfare for out-of control behaviour might just be deemed to be in need of an anxiolytic, for example, diazepam (valium to the uninitiated). Now this helps him sleep but does not treat the root causes of the behaviour. Result: because benzos have a short half-life, over time this kid becomes dependant (you notice I do not use the word addicted). Not only that, because the kid gets little or no education in how the drug works , and still has to deal with the untreated demons that bother him, he learns to fall back on this drug for the escape he needs. When he hits 18 he's cut loose to vie for himself.
As it happens the vast majority of street people you see in Alberta's two major cities were a) in care as children and adolescents and b)were treated with valium and c) when they have attempted to withdraw have suffered brain damage.
Then a more recent drug prescribed for "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder" Ritalin. (remember the out of control kid above who never got his underlying problem diagnosed?) Now we have kids being prescribed a stimulant very closely related to, you've got it, dexadrine and methamphetamine. In fact, methamphetamine can be obtained on prescription in the US -- in cases of the most extreme forms of ADHD.
Now a kid who is given Ritalin on a superficial diagnosis by a GP can be A)Correctly diagnosed or B) incorrectly diagnosed. In either case kid may not like how the drug affects him. It has been known for kids who don't like the drug to pretend to take it and pass it off to friends. It has also been known for such kids to rather like what the drug does to them. It doesn't take long for them to find out that bennies make them feel even better and then, hey, Meth! And recent research seems to indicate that people with undiagnosed ADHD find that Meth actually helps them. The problem is that they have way too high a dose and suffer extreme rebound effects.
You will note, gentle reader, that nowhere in my diatribe do I adopt a moralistic condemning attitude nor do I suggest that such users of drugs are to be written off as "losers". In both cases there is a lack of insight, true. But that arises as much as anything from the inability of the institutions and families in the background of these individuals to recognise or accurately diagnose what is going on with these individuals.
In one case I recently dealt with the Valium dependence arose from untreated sexual abuse the child had suffered when she was 5 at the hands of her uncle. In the other, the Methamphetamine dependance had a great deal to do with 2 young men suffering many of the symptoms of ADHD which one set of parents recognized but doctors didn't. When that boy discovered Meth helped him concentrate he first became dependant and gradually became toxic. The other boy was poor and cut off Ritalin when he was old enough to work without getting Welfare or having a pharmacare plan. He was also more likely Bipolar. When helped to understand where he was coming from (without browbeating or preaching) this individual was able to turn around and rebuild his shattered life.
And what would make the drug-pushing posters here not be able to see it, except denial and self-justification...really shameful behavior"
Naah, I'm sorry, Antigen and those of us who oppose the mythology and methodology of AARC are not "drug-pushers" What is really shameful behaviour is that you, who did embark on truly criminal behaviour (robberies, beatings, theft, etc.)seek to evade or avoid accepting fully personal responsibility for your actions. That's like the TWINKY defence. Oh! the drugs made me do it! How convenient!
No, You may feel that Dr. Vause's methodology has empowered you to take control of your life, but really, if you still believe that you would be unable to partake of a drug, any drug, in moderaton, without succumbing to excess, then you have not been empowered, but truly disempowered. For the young man I know, who went through coerced treatment, admits to me that, "if I take just one dose (of meth) I KNOW I'll just go straight back to the gutter. Too bad, I suspect that if he had gone the route of the other guy he may well have succeeded in quite a different way.
I could go on with scores of example in my personal knowledge but one thing is certain in the drug war, the "common sense" you talk about , first of all ain't too common, nor does it make any sense.
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On 2004-10-17 17:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
One more comment regarding AARC: if it had created harm similar to KIDS, the SEED, Straight, etc, then after over 12 years, and hundreds of graduates and their families, where are the lawsuits? I am sure lots of Ambulance chasers would like the chance to line their pockets at AARCs expense if the could find evidence of wrong doing. It happened to all those US based centers.
Well, I know that Dean Vaus was trained directly by Miller Newton. Newton even bragged about branching into Alberta. And I've read in this forum about incidents so similar to Straight that it's hard to dismiss. For example, a girl (I honestly don't remember who) described an incident in which she confessed to Group to contemplating suicide. In response, staff and group shamed her, yelled at her and accused her of the unforgivable crime of seeking attention.
People have the perception of Straight as an ongoing orgy of physical violence. While I believe people who describe weeks and months of newcomer revolt and such, that's not what happened when I was in Sarasota. Probably a couple of times a week someone would get sat on and there were the marathon shouting and shoving sessions in the timeout rooms. But, for the most part, it was days upon days of sweating your brains out, worried about what to say and how to say it should somone stand you up or interrupt you w/ the most frightening question in the world; "What's going on with you?"
In an environment like that, neither you nor I have any reliable way to know what anyone was like before intake. Newcomers who insist that they don't have drug problems or need treatment are not treated very well.
Don't hate the media. Become the media
--Jello Biafra
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you are a phyco bitch and dont defend aarc they gunna fuck you over 1 day soon you'll c
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If you would all be so patient as to allow me to anonymously introduce myself, no I am not a coward, I am an outsider who has unfaultering loyaty to a friend. I also do not claim to understand either side of the coin when the debate is the AARC Program. I have the priveledge and honor to have been chosen and accepted in the role of friend to an active AARC graduate. I will apologize in advance at this point if any of my observations or opinions offend or are heard as disrespect. That is not my intent. I am not an addict, nor do I claim to understand what addiction does to a family or the individual who struggles internally to conquer it. Some of my thoughts may come from a place of ignorance. This is why I request the patience of both sides of the coin.
Over the past few months I have experienced the opportunity of being a friend to an alcoholic who just happens to be a graduate of AARC. Because of my admiration for this person and the journey she has traveled to become this pillar of strenghth and integrity not only to myself but to my family,(I have children) it brought me to place where I wanted to understand more about what AARC was for her. I will say I have spent a total of fourteen hours, and approximately thirty six minutes, since the evening of yesterday, trying to absorb and understand every possible piece of material, positive and negative about AARC and Dean Vause. For no other reason but to attempt to understand the depth of my friends struggle to become the person I am so grateful for today.
At this point I feel it neccessary to say I will not submitt this correspodence without firstly seeking the advise and approval of my friend. (AARC Graduate) Reason being that above all I respect her direction over my need to be heard. I am truly in "shock" and feel very heavy hearted by what I have read on this site. Again I recognize I have no place to claim expertise or do I claim to have a completely informed opinion on the reality of AARC or being an addict for that matter. What I do know is this. There are unique people, unique circumstances, and unique perceptions in this world that may not be a fit for all of us. For my friend AARC was a fit. Dean Vause is her safe place. Irregardless of contraversy, or who people and content connect him to, which appears to me to be strongly one sided, I will be forever in gratitude to AARC and Dean Vause for being the "main stay" in my friend's journey, because without them, I nor my family would have been given the opportunity to experience the magic and wealth of knowledge my friend brings to our life.
Please be mindful that this is from an outsiders perspective and by no means do I intend disrespect towards anyone. But the "sheer" magnitude of viciousness that I read within this site, from both sides is unsettling.
My question is, should it not be enough that the people we love are here with us now, in whatever capacity? Should we not be grateful for whatever process, be it what may, which has them alive today? I know I am blessed to have my friend and I am thankful every day for what AARC provided her.
I am a Research Evaluation Consultant and therefore know I have provided myself with fair and measurable information. This said, I cannot ignore the fact that I place far more credibility in the vehicle which has allowed me the opportunity of my friend, and it would be my wish that all could put aside the attacks and criticisms and just be grateful for those this process so clearly works for.
I know my life is blessed by the fact that my friend is thus far successful in her recovery, and that in all honesty, is good enough for me.
Submitted Respectfully,
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On 2004-10-29 17:45:00, sweet_grl_with_a_bad_attitude wrote:
"you are a phyco bitch and dont defend aarc they gunna fuck you over 1 day soon you'll c"
I don't get called a bitch much - I am a guy. And as far as AARC "fucking me over soon" it has been 11 years since I graduated, 9 since I worked there, and they have seen me through and supported me when both my parents died, helped with work, and have always been in my corner. If this is being "fucked over", I hope they continue. The people I used to do drugs with have been no help - I hope they are there for you!
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I am so glad I visited from the CEDU site. I stumbled across this thread. I liked it. Hope you don't mind if I repost. I laughed at the joint remark and it's not because I was smoking one. :rofl:
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On 2004-10-12 13:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My OPINION, allow me to repeat...my OPINION after spending over 20 years in the field, after spending countless hours in both undergrad and grad school pouring over the academics surrounding such issues, and lastly after experiencing what I did in my own stepcraft based program, it is my OPINION that sobriety is analagous to your favorite drinking glass in the kitchen. It may look pretty as it sits in your favorite cabinet (cupboard in Canada?), but the days are numbered. It is destined to fall to the ground and shatter into a million pieces, eventually. You can try to care for the fragility of it all day and night, but eventually and more than likely, the glass will be broken. If you die sober, kudos to you. You should be commended for living a life of conviction and determination. However, if you do not, then you fall into a categorically common statistic.
I hope your sobriety works for you and I am glad that AARC has played such a significant part in improving your quality of life. However, frankly I think (again, my own OPINION) is that AARC has adopted some very controversial and possibly even dangerous treatment modalities used to treat adolescents in need.
Maybe indeed this board has gone downhill as you mentioned, but it is undeniable that it provides for a great medium for those in favor of the program to speak out against those opposed to it and vice versa. Yes yes?
You suggested a meeting...I haven't the time, I have an appointment to smoke a joint as fat as your left arm in about an hour.
:smokin: "
I am so glad I visited from the CEDU site. I stumbled across this thread. I liked it. Hope you don't mind if I repost. I laughed at the joint remark and it's not because I was smoking one. :rofl:
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"You suggested a meeting...I haven't the time, I have an appointment to smoke a joint as fat as your left arm in about an hour. "
Word.
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I am curious why many pro-aarc posters keep repeating certain words....like illegal
why are they repeating this, are illegal drugs the only bad ones?? why is there an emphasis on that word.
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It's called "cultspeak",
syntax programmed by a synop
'synful' indeed.