Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones => Topic started by: Anonymous on September 27, 2004, 09:30:00 PM
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we never hear from the 80's kids. did they fall for all that friends and loyalty crap that was rammed down their throats or were they a cedu version of the stepford wife like scott canter courtney kemp and becky ugarte and susan qualls and the rest of the monkeys that placed put on a pedastal. where are you all at today and why did you believe these people so much? yea they were convincing but didn't all the manipulating by mel wasserman and narcissism cult crap of michael allgood leave you thinking that the place was a scam designed to keep you with your "friends". what do you think of all the self absorbed assholes who believed all the crap that came out of their mouths? what reasons do you have for giving the place so much credit?
the blood of all the suicides is something you should all think about when you asked the place to toughen up. as long as there are winners and losers and you can call someone else a loser i guess that is all that matters to vicious little ignorant fucks like wooten and villere who had a little hunger strike when his parents yanked him
tell us what you think today and the rest of you comment
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I was there in '87 and did not meet the people you mentioned except the Bentzes. When I was there, it was the Bentzes, the Abells, Bonanno Bros, Laurie Saunders, Jim Johnson as family heads. The Kim Browns visited occasionally. I do not understand how these staff could keep their lips zipped about some of the more illicit goings on at CEDU. Also, how do you know Bentz was kicked out of HLA for screwing a student? Where did you get that info? What about his wife?
The "friends and loyalty" stuff amongst students was propagated in a way to ensure total indoctrination. You were a brother's keeper if you ratted out your bud who used hair gel out of agreement. The word loyal was just a nice way of saying either brainwashed or playing the game.
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it was conditional love as they called it. if you stayed they would be your "friend" if you dared to leave or were pulled you were labeled as having sold everybody out . they would always encourage us to snitch on each other but when this kid called the placement people and they came up with cops after he left they accused him of being a snitch when all he was doing was looking out for others. allgood could not stand be shown to be wrong so he would try to turn it around and encourage others to shun this kid. they would tell us to do something and then turn on this kid for doing the same thing they told us to do. burt said it was trying to argue both sides of every arguement. allgood would not admit the kid was right to send cops and he let the fact that he was upset that this randy asshole broke a window and tried to blame the kid who left and allgood decided to blame the kid who left even though he was gone when it happened. sociopathic allgood there was a walkout at cascade cause he was caught banging girls and parents would not let their kids stay
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I was there in the early '80's. There was a staff member named Kim Quigley that put a shotgun in his mouth and blew his brains out. Need I say more?
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i heard that too the lie fed to the kids was that he was gay and troubled but we heard that allgoods first wife who we were told died of cancer was jealous and homophobic and ordered melzer and others to do him in. how was this guy treated in the years leading up to his demise. Were you there when that abusive tony mills and his selfish girlfriend were there?
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bump. doing the bump.
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I was there in the early '80's. There was a staff member named Kim Quigley that put a shotgun in his mouth and blew his brains out. Need I say more?
I was there when Kim was in John Pagents family! He was one of there top salesman and was forced to date this whack job names Francis (I think that was her name) anyway..they would go at each others in raps "I'm talking down & dirty" it was hysterical! I heard about the suicide..so sad.
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I was there in the early '80's. There was a staff member named Kim Quigley that put a shotgun in his mouth and blew his brains out. Need I say more?
I was there when Kim was in John Pagents family! He was one of there top salesman and was forced to date this whack job names Francis (I think that was her name) anyway..they would go at each others in raps "I'm talking down & dirty" it was hysterical! I heard about the suicide..so sad.
What was being sold? I want to understand better. Kim was a staff? John Pagent was a staff? He sold something for CEDU? and CEDU made him date a crazy girl named Francis? You were a student in raps about this? Kim killed herself but used to facilitate troubled teens with their problems ala CEDU?
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Kim was a he...and was one of the many fundraiser up there (so was I). Basically.. we asked for money,office supplies,food what ever Cedu needed at the time...and yes we were encouraged to date...even setup with other students.
My experience with dating (from what I recall) was nothing less of comical. There decided to pair me up with the sweetest guy even through I don't remember us every being attracted to one another. I ended up being caught making out in a shopping mall around Xmas with another Cedu do-gooder and my dating came to an abrupt halt!
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Fundraisers? Really? Interesting. Care to elabroate on what this involved? Parents had to pay a tuition, then, right?
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Yes..my family paid my tuition but there was also a state program (scholarships?). Anyway, once you graduated up to John Pageants family, you were trained to cold call for donations..then they moved you down to join the Los Angeles team and do the door to door deal. That's when I left.
Poor Kim Quigley, he was such a 'brown noser' and never had it so good! . Like a lot of others..once he left ...life came crashing down on him. Cedu never made it easy to leave..unless of corce you where getting kicked out! I ran away from running springs (so easy..just stuck out my thumb) came back... went on dish pan (Bitch Bonnie cut my hair shorter than most) this was all back in 1975.
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Anyway, once you graduated up to John Pageants family, you were trained to cold call for donations..then they moved you down to join the Los Angeles team and do the door to door deal. That's when I left.
So in other words, Mel Wasserman sent his followers to LA to
beg for change, the same as Charles Manson had done a
decade earlier.
More proof that Cedu was a cult.
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I thought this thread had some interesting stuff you may like.
c'ya
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As a matter of fact I have pictures of them all.
The were all there because their parents were pieces of shit and wouldn't raise their kids! I'm not saying they didn't have issues, but I'm willinf 2 bet the problem wasn't the apple but the tree. :x
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As a matter of fact I have pictures of them all.
The were all there because their parents were pieces of shit and wouldn't raise their kids! I'm not saying they didn't have issues, but I'm willinf 2 bet the problem wasn't the apple but the tree. :x
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Yeah I used 2 have 2 put up with his swishy bull shit.
He definitely had helium loafers.
He was all about helping kids like bush is all about helping Iraqies.
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, Bonanno Bros,
Dean did my 'friends'.
fucker.
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friends is the modern day brothers propheet right?
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but its not the modern day, its the semi younger day; im half younger. and he came to work at my school just b4 brothers. but he had a different deal that he did. he actually went through the bio, sort of, but instead of fighting to get in the circle like all us kids he just screamed and shit that he wanted to get in. thats the way Rea did it too we he stopped by / took over in 'raps.' He would just start freaking out when he got his feelings hurt about something. they were both actually really good about expressing their own emotions. And generally people shut the fuck up. I know that they were trained by the best.
dean WENT to hilltop; w/ 'bill hoffman'. this i know. not sure sure abour hoff but i know they were friends b4.
icomeanon
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rea krider?
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no. Rea Krieder. or maybe kreider. either way. yep. he was in charge of academics. and my brother made him a total ass.
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what year? i graduate rma in 1990.
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why?
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why what? If your question was directed at me read on.
hold on this is interesting.
Rea Kreider was at RMA circa 1986 to 1992
then
Mount Bachelor Academy from 1992 to 1995
then
Academy at Swift River from 1995 to ?
So - he left ASR post 1995 and ended up back at BCA? At that point he ran your fake brother's keeper propheet?
Help me fill in the blanks....
By the way - "I'm half younger" should be copyrighted and trademarked. If you don't I'll poach it from you at some point.
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but its not the modern day, its the semi younger day; im half younger. and he came to work at my school just b4 brothers. but he had a different deal that he did. he actually went through the bio, sort of, but instead of fighting to get in the circle like all us kids he just screamed and shit that he wanted to get in. thats the way Rea did it too we he stopped by / took over in 'raps.' He would just start freaking out when he got his feelings hurt about something. they were both actually really good about expressing their own emotions. And generally people shut the fuck up. I know that they were trained by the best.
dean WENT to hilltop; w/ 'bill hoffman'. this i know. not sure sure abour hoff but i know they were friends b4.
icomeanon
Interesting. At Benchmark, they called brothers keeper "Friendship Workshop". Jayne Longnecker, who started Benchmark was director of Hilltop from 86-93. So are you saying that it was once called "friends", or am I misunderstanding something?
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why what? If your question was directed at me read on.
then
Mount Bachelor Academy from 1992 to 1995
sorry, just worry about posting personal info. on a web site where i don't know anybody. and consider the topic.
surely rea is helping tim at cranberry bread school. they're butt budies. thats why he came to MBA. to get our academics PENIS certified.
cheers.
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no worries. I hear you on remaining anonymous.
I'm confused about ...
1. what is cranberry bread school.
2. what does this mean..." thats why he came to MBA. to get our academics PENIS certified" and when did they come to MBA.
3. Where are REA and Tim right now?
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its just a pain in the ass. logging in. i totally lose my train of thought. i just want to write. reply. thats it. anyways.
rea was at like rma or something. and then he came after i was there like a year in order to put the paperworker together for the pacific northwest association of independent schools; so they could prove to colleges that we actually had classes. what a joke.
but yeah, our drama teacher teri lynn called them the penis people. and it kind of stuck. PNAIS.
i think she may have got fired over it; that and she liked a clockwork orange.
as far as i can tell it looks like tim has maybe transitioned into a more normal setting. who knows, the web site is vague. cranbrook school, or something, in virginia.
no idea where rea is. i can only assume he still is friends with 'pimp' brace. two peas in a fucking pod. hope this helps.
icomeanon
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friends wasn't called friends. i just called it friends so you wouldnt know what exact school i went to. Whatever. For us it was called The Bridge. The second mindfuck. And legend had it that if you didn't cry in the truth, you were definitely gonna cry in the bridge.
I only know of one person who didn't cry in the bridge. gang banger from chicago. and he told us that he cried sometimes; he just surely wasn't gonna let us silly fucks see him cry.
icomeanon
ps dude never did do forever young; so, who knows. probably not his cup of tea anyways. matter of fact, what kind of asshole likes that kind of tea anyway?
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Am I the only one who is totally confused as to what the fucking fuck has been going on this past page?
The brothers was called the bridge?
God, Rea was such a fucking pussy. Did you know his wife Sharon? Was she a crazy harpy from hell or what? What the fuck was her deal?
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as far as i can tell it looks like tim has maybe transitioned into a more normal setting. who knows, the web site is vague. cranbrook school, or something, in virginia.
Carlbrook School. Yup. That's where he is.
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but its not the modern day, its the semi younger day; im half younger. and he came to work at my school just b4 brothers. but he had a different deal that he did. he actually went through the bio, sort of, but instead of fighting to get in the circle like all us kids he just screamed and shit that he wanted to get in. thats the way Rea did it too we he stopped by / took over in 'raps.' He would just start freaking out when he got his feelings hurt about something. they were both actually really good about expressing their own emotions. And generally people shut the fuck up. I know that they were trained by the best.
dean WENT to hilltop; w/ 'bill hoffman'. this i know. not sure sure abour hoff but i know they were friends b4.
icomeanon
That's interesting because they both work together still today at Mount Bachelor Academy. Bill Hoffman used to be program director, but recently was demoted to basically the guy who runs work projects. Dean was running basecamp the last time I checked, however.
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First off I am a believer in very little. Maybe I believe in smoking really good weed. Other than that this thread makes me feel like I smoked weed dipped in PCP, but at least I won't trip for 3 days.
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Yes..my family paid my tuition but there was also a state program (scholarships?). Anyway, once you graduated up to John Pageants family, you were trained to cold call for donations..then they moved you down to join the Los Angeles team and do the door to door deal. That's when I left.
Poor Kim Quigley, he was such a 'brown noser' and never had it so good! . Like a lot of others..once he left ...life came crashing down on him. Cedu never made it easy to leave..unless of corce you where getting kicked out! I ran away from running springs (so easy..just stuck out my thumb) came back... went on dish pan (Bitch Bonnie cut my hair shorter than most) this was all back in 1975.
Since this thread has been bumped, I just wanted to reiterate that this is the most motherfucking interesting thing I've ever read in this forum.
Not thread...
forum.
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Wasserman told everyone that he had a furniture store and started taking kids in then formed CEDU. He said CEDU meant "see yourself as you are and do something about it". But I've seen it documented all over the web that Wasserman was some sort of "star pupil" of Dederich's at Synanon and formed CEDU as "Charles E. Dederich University". Now which is true? Also, the lingo and concepts they used sound very close to those used by Charles Manson (being "on center", "it's all done with mirrors", etc.). Did he have something to do with this whole industry?
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Wasserman told everyone that he had a furniture store and started taking kids in then formed CEDU. He said CEDU meant "see yourself as you are and do something about it". But I've seen it documented all over the web that Wasserman was some sort of "star pupil" of Dederich's at Synanon and formed CEDU as "Charles E. Dederich University". Now which is true?
I was told by a guy who worked (perhaps still wors) for the Cali. Dept. of Education that he was told it by CEDU back in the day it was Charles E. Dederich University. He said he remembered the name because he often went on vacation near Arrownead lake and knew a lot about Synanon.
Surviors from the early era (pre-rattlesnake) have said similar things as well. Charles E. Dedeich was also commonly referred to by his initials "CED". With Dederich's existing established Synanon connections, I find it highly unlikely these things are coincidences or that all these people are mistaken.
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Thanks for responding. What do you think about Manson. I watched alot of his YouTube speeches and I would have no problem believing that he had gone through CEDU or Synanon or something of the like. I'm sure if that were true they would have silenced their involvement with him but it's very curious. CEDU was said to have been started with Wasserman by some hippies like Michael Allgood in the 60's who may have idolized Manson or been associated with the Family - could Manson have actually influence the content for CEDU and/or other programs of the like?
Wasserman told everyone that he had a furniture store and started taking kids in then formed CEDU. He said CEDU meant "see yourself as you are and do something about it". But I've seen it documented all over the web that Wasserman was some sort of "star pupil" of Dederich's at Synanon and formed CEDU as "Charles E. Dederich University". Now which is true?
I was told by a guy who worked (perhaps still wors) for the Cali. Dept. of Education that he was told it by CEDU back in the day it was Charles E. Dederich University. He said he remembered the name because he often went on vacation near Arrownead lake and knew a lot about Synanon.
Surviors from the early era (pre-rattlesnake) have said similar things as well. Charles E. Dedeich was also commonly referred to by his initials "CED". With Dederich's existing established Synanon connections, I find it highly unlikely these things are coincidences or that all these people are mistaken.
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Thanks for responding. What do you think about Manson.
Check out the other thread:
viewtopic.php?p=326919#p326919 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=326919#p326919)
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I didn't really hate Mel Wasserman personally. He wasn't that present anymore when I was there. He was turning over the reigns to Michael Allgood. But I hated his kid Mark who took it over later. Wasserman was just some rich Jew conning more money out of people one way or another so he could live in luxury down in Laguna Nigel. They did influence me to become a skinhead when I left although I was not anti-semitic prior to Cedu. (I've way outgrown that sort of thing now).
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cranbrook school
Wasn't that the private school Papa Doc (Clarence) went to in the film 8 Mile? Rabbit totally housed him, yo.
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I know Michael Allgood is PENIS certified!!!!!!!!! ::OMG::
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we never hear from the 80's kids. did they fall for all that friends and loyalty crap that was rammed down their throats or were they a cedu version of the stepford wife like scott canter courtney kemp and becky ugarte and susan qualls and the rest of the monkeys that placed put on a pedastal. where are you all at today and why did you believe these people so much? yea they were convincing but didn't all the manipulating by mel wasserman and narcissism cult crap of michael allgood leave you thinking that the place was a scam designed to keep you with your "friends". what do you think of all the self absorbed assholes who believed all the crap that came out of their mouths? what reasons do you have for giving the place so much credit?
the blood of all the suicides is something you should all think about when you asked the place to toughen up. as long as there are winners and losers and you can call someone else a loser i guess that is all that matters to vicious little ignorant fucks like wooten and villere who had a little hunger strike when his parents yanked him
tell us what you think today and the rest of you comment
I graduated in the early 80's and actually know these four people rather well. Of Scott Canter you are definitely mis-representing him as he was always very sarcastic and skeptical of the program. When he worked there after I'm sure that it had to be a fluke thing although power is power u know. Courtney Kemp can't think for herself past the stuck up nose on her face. She has always been superficial and self centered so a Step ford wife is a great description of this blond bimbo idiot who has no sense of self worth or direction. She lives in Orange county now and is a great friend of Melzer. Becky Ugarte was molested by John Padgett at CEDU...at least Eric Melzer keeps telling people that Becky told him this when she went to visit at the Cascade school. Susan Qualls was about as shallow as Courtney Kemp and she very well may be a CEDU clone but more than that she is a rocker wannabe who's great claim to the world is that she was a roadie to many top rock bands and fucked as many of them as she could.
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we never hear from the 80's kids. did they fall for all that friends and loyalty crap that was rammed down their throats
There are a few here on the boards, myself being one of them.
Could be that the reason the 80s alum don't frequent the place is because it was so long ago. Sure, there are a few who still drink the cool aid (as evidenced by some things Ive read on assmates.com.) but I think for the most part, those who were high functioning and well-adjusted just dealt with it and moved on with their lives. I mean, it WAS 20+ years ago, after all.
However, the crazy, fucked up retards from that era found fornits.... And here we stay. :ftard:
howaaay.. apples.
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we never hear from the 80's kids. did they fall for all that friends and loyalty crap that was rammed down their throats
There are a few here on the boards, myself being one of them.
Could be that the reason the 80s alum don't frequent the place is because it was so long ago. Sure, there are a few who still drink the cool aid (as evidenced by some things Ive read on assmates.com.) but I think for the most part, those who were high functioning and well-adjusted just dealt with it and moved on with their lives. I mean, it WAS 20+ years ago, after all.
However, the crazy, fucked up retards from that era found fornits.... And here we stay. :ftard:
howaaay.. apples.
how many kids are there that went through CEDU in the 80s?
Only the tiniest portion of survivors from any program,no mater how bad or comparitively "light" post on fornits with regularity. It doesn't make sense to assume they are "beleivers"
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Only the tiniest portion of survivors from any program,no mater how bad or comparitively "light" post on fornits with regularity. It doesn't make sense to assume they are "beleivers"
I never said anything about anyone being believers. In fact, I said I knew of only a small handful who still adhered to program politic. I said that the majority have most likely moved on.
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Only the tiniest portion of survivors from any program,no mater how bad or comparitively "light" post on fornits with regularity. It doesn't make sense to assume they are "beleivers"
I never said anything about anyone being believers. In fact, I said I knew of only a small handful who still adhered to program politic. I said that the majority have most likely moved on.
sure. Who knows why people don't post? Busy just trying to stay alive? Maybe a lot are dead? Maybe posting on this admittedly often retarded forum just isnt for a lot of people. Post or not, I wish people would leave their testimony with HEAL or ISAC. That would help a great deal...
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Thanks for responding. What do you think about Manson. I watched alot of his YouTube speeches and I would have no problem believing that he had gone through CEDU or Synanon or something of the like. I'm sure if that were true they would have silenced their involvement with him but it's very curious. CEDU was said to have been started with Wasserman by some hippies like Michael Allgood in the 60's who may have idolized Manson or been associated with the Family - could Manson have actually influence the content for CEDU and/or other programs of the like?
Wasserman told everyone that he had a furniture store and started taking kids in then formed CEDU. He said CEDU meant "see yourself as you are and do something about it". But I've seen it documented all over the web that Wasserman was some sort of "star pupil" of Dederich's at Synanon and formed CEDU as "Charles E. Dederich University". Now which is true?
I was told by a guy who worked (perhaps still wors) for the Cali. Dept. of Education that he was told it by CEDU back in the day it was Charles E. Dederich University. He said he remembered the name because he often went on vacation near Arrownead lake and knew a lot about Synanon.
Surviors from the early era (pre-rattlesnake) have said similar things as well. Charles E. Dedeich was also commonly referred to by his initials "CED". With Dederich's existing established Synanon connections, I find it highly unlikely these things are coincidences or that all these people are mistaken.
I'm afraid that I miss the connection between Charles Manson a henious mass murdered and CEDU. If you read your history books, at the time that CEDU was started, in the 60ish era, people were all attempting to find meaning in their lives and depth. This was a huge drug era which had role models such as the famed Timothy Leary who was encouraging people to "Turn on, tune in, drop out" with LSD. Drugs were popular as were communes and free love.
How ever Mel Wasserman created the foundation of the theory of CEDU, you would have to take a good hard look at the time period it was created to understand the philosophy. While by the late 80's this philosophy was outdated, CEDU attempted to change with the times but was unsuccessful for whatever reason.
While I have gone through my struggles with the CEDU experience, being called this as it was an emotional, physical and intellectual experience, through the years, I have come to this conclusion for myself. There was a lesson or message that CEDU was sending me with their particular dogma. I had a choice as to whether I was going to focus on the messengers (the staff) or listen to the message. 25 years later, does it matter to me who delivered the message as long as I understood it? I taught my daughter many of these lessons in a way that was appropriate to a growing child as these are some of my fundamental beliefs:
Heroes are important.
Having a Dream and carrying out the actions to achieve it are worthwhile.
I truly do want to live and I don't want to risk my life or enjoyment of it by doing things that damage my heart and soul.
Friends are extremely important.
We are all truly our brothers keepers and that would include our neighbor who is struggling to put food on the table for their families.
Values guide us through ethical difficulties and are important.
There are two parts of my being the I (brain thinking rationalizing) and the me (feeling, emotional) these two parts don't always work together for my benefit.
Many lessons to the summit but not enough time to go into depth for any of this.
Now, my parents failed to teach me these things and because of that I wound up at CEDU...also major abuse from these parents as well. CEDU, for all of it's failings or triumphs did take the time to teach these things as this is what they were paid for. While the delivery of the message was many times loud and uncomfortable, I got it.
So here is my voice from the early 80's----I survived it, I learned from it and it helped me to grow as a person and a human being.
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I learned not to ever be like those people that's what I learned, and I think I should have been in school at 13 learning, not at some dump called the seed where some drunken comedian was out to get himself a nice piece of pie from everyone else plate. Art Barker is nothing but a worthless drunken comedian druggie, I myself never did drugs.
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What did I learn during my "Cedu Experience?" Hmmmm...Well, I didn't come out with an education, but I know how to weave little baskets. Thanks to Michael and Heather. Thanks guys, that's carried me far in life.
I learned to communicate with another person, I have to yell, scream, and curse. Those rap sessions really were helpful. Not.
I was taught as 17 year-old disgusting sexual horrors. It never occured to me to have sex with an animal at that age. Yet, I learned all about that.
Marcie Padgett told us teen girls about how to get it on, and have a gutt-busting orgasism. That was so helpful, Marcie. Thank you honey. That's just what teen girls need to know about. Such a whore you were.
Dan Earle taught me that deep down inside, most men are pigs. Don't trust them. Most men, like Dan Earle, are compulsive masturbators. They can't even restrain themselves against female students. Carmen was right, Dan was a pig. But then again, so was she. Glad she's dead. It's great!
I learned about greed. About saving money, and not hiring qualified therapists. Instead, they pocketed the money, and had fucking kitchen staff run rap sessions. Nice. :twofinger:
I learned that we were thrown to the wolves by abusive or just plain ineffective parents. And, that Cedu was nothing but a very expensive baby sitter.
I'm pleased that Ms. Rizzo came out with so many positive things from her "Cedu Experience."
What the fuck ever. ::fullofshit::
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Actually, for me, a lot of the "tools" that they tried to teach confused me. Mainly because their interpretation of any of them left little room for the original meaning. for example, the pendulum. To the extent that you feel your sorrow, you shall also feel your joy. It seems to me, after the fact, that Gibrahn was talking about allowing oneself to experience grief when tragedy comes into one's life. If you deny yourself the emotions that come with life's tragedies, you will also have difficulty being truly in touch with your joy when wonderful things happen to you, such as getting married, or having a child, or winning a million dollars in the lottery.. or winning a million children in the lottery... or winning a million married children in the lottery.
Anyway...
That didn't seem to be the way it was taught to us. I learned that in order to feel any joy, I had to make myself suffer, first... and so began our training of thinking that if we didn't run our anger and have a nervous breakdown on a regular basis, something BAD would happen to us..
And as for the brother's keeper... That did little to teach about any sort of real friendship. The harder the truth to tell, the truer the friend that tells it. There is a way to be honest with your friends while still being considerate of their feelings.. which that place did not help us with at all. (Trust me, Ive had to draw the line with friends at times.. diplomacy goes a long way.)
In the IWTL, there was this concept of "supporting your death". What did some of this include? Well, lets see.. Ill take out my full time notebook. It says here that being a fag supports my death.
Fucky darn, it's amazing Im still alive.
First of all, let's be clear. As far as I'm concerned.. the whole concept of "supporting your death" is nothing more than alarmist. It doesn't even address the issue of self-destructive behavior, because nobody there could even agree on what the fuck that was.
After the values propheet, I still had no clue on what values even were.. All I remember was some bullshit about a weasel, and that crazy containment exercise which consisted of about the 300th time I had done some sort of bullshit regression/guided imagery sludge. It really spoke nothing about values, and actually, the whole idea of values is rather abstract to a 17 year old.
So I guess the above could still be categorized as a messenger vs. message issue. But 1. It could have been learned a lot more effectively, and efficiently, in a nurturing environment. 2. Learning about things such as friendship and the like required a lot of UN-learning of what CEDU taught me, which kinda seems to me that the way I learned it to begin with was a complete waste of time. 3. A good portion of the philosophies at school were severely flawed in logic, regardless of the messenger or how it was "taught". Such as the examples below:
The dreams was an unbelievably nasty thing... its primary message was that everything you were before coming to CEDU was totally sinful and wicked, and should be rejected outright. This is why I continue to maintain that this propheet, even though its exercises weren't nearly as traumatic as other propheets/workshops, (and left most people confused more than anything else), imparted the most evil and manipulative message out of all of them.
The I&Me also taught one to live their life in a way that was not only irresponsible, but could be downright dangerous. Thinking is considered the "bad" part of your psyche, while "me" (your id) is the one that is always hurt and oppressed by I. I and Me should work together, with Me being in charge.
Think about the problems this can cause. Keeping a clear head is always preferable to being an emotional mess or a hedonist. It's what keeps you alive. There is nothing wrong with feeling your feelings, but there are a hell of a lot of times in life where you aren't afforded that luxury, and you will need to "suck it up." and let yourself feel that shit later. It's especially important that one doesn't regard these two aspects of themselves as constantly at war. Seriously, I have not ever really had a problem with "I" crushing "Me". Not a fucking issue. It's good when "I" is in charge, and that's how it should be most of the time. It's normally the other way around that is a problem.
The whole concept of I and Me is antithetical to survival, and counterproductive to being a high-functioning individual. Talk about setting yourself up to be a drug addict... sure.. indulge the pleasure-seeking attributes of your id and you are on your way there.
News Flash: I and Me do NOT exist. It is a bunch of made up bullshit.
The venture of dividing up the psyche into separate personae, in my opinion, induces pathology all its own. (I've never been a huge fan of Freud's theories, or Jung's archetypes.) CEDU's invention and concept of I and Me made each (completely fabricated) side seem like they had their *own* personality disorders. "I" being the brutal sociopath, (you are nothing but an object I can dominate) and "Me" being the narcissist/eternal victim. (Everybody is my mirror, and everyone reflects myself back to me. I require rescue and constant coaxing/coddling, and nothing is my fault or responsibility.)
Sure, lets have both of those sides work together. I think then you end up with something like borderline, don't you? Lovely.
I honestly don't know what was going through Joe Francis' mind when he was in court for whatever that rape case was, but when I read about how disrespectful he was to the judge, by actually standing up and shouting at him... I often wondered where he learned how to act like that. Maybe it was unrelated to his stint at RMA, but it sure seemed like he had his "rap hat" on. "oh sorry your honor, I was just giving 'me' a voice."
The summit crap was the most confusing of all. "End results equal original intentions." Are you fucking shitting me? There are no unintended consequences? How unbelievably disturbing. I remember asking Carmen to specify that and explain it more, because it just didnt add up. Her response? She just repeated the tool again.... slower.... I'd heard it the first time, but I guess she thought I had turned into a mongoloid.
One other thing that was a bunch of poop-casings was the contract in the summit, as well as the tagline you come up with after the values for challenge night (for your farkakte "values shield" remember those?)... well... that seems to me to be more of RMA/CEDU's oversimplification of a persona, and a staff-approved one at that. Remember how the contract exercise had nothing to do with developing your own axiom, but rather involved trying to figure out the one that the staff already had envisioned for you? Wait, am I selling a product? I am a minty, clean man?
It's difficult for me to say that I "learned" anything at that place, because whatever insight or knowledge I did gain seemed to be far outweighed by the price I had to pay in order to gain it.
But in case you are wondering, I did learn some things:
1. How to crack an egg with one hand
2. Carrying the food on an expedition is preferable to carrying the tent.. so always call food.
3. How to make a snow cave/snow kitchen
4. How to telemark ski
5. All of the skills associated with work (forestry, farming, animal husbandry, etc.)
6. If you are cold, take a piss, it normally helps.
7. How to fly fish
For the most part... it *was* nice to learn these things.. and I really did enjoy the expeditions, (even though I regarded my peer group as a bunch of spoiled-rotten douchebags.)
...but I could have learned most of this stuff elsewhere.. without so much additional baggage.
As for the Manson thing... well, he was a guru, as was Jones, Koresh, Do, and Diederich Sr. In some ways, I consider Mel had a bit of that aspect to him, because he worked for Diederich. Early 60s, 70s CEDU (pre high school) did seem to have a commune feel, based on stuff Ive read, but the fact of the matter is... it never went in that direction, and I really don't think Mel ever wanted it to. He was a businessman, and he saw a lucrative opportunity. So no, I don't see such clear parallels to things like the Manson family or Jonestown.
(Sorry about the edits. Mostly verbiage clarification, spelling corrections, and an addendum about the I & Me, cause really, that shit was totally fucked up, yo.)
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I went to Cedu in Running Springs CA in 1980. I have only seen one person from there since I left that place. I was only 12 years old when they sent me. I was the youngest one there the entire time I stayed. I would love to re-connect with people who were there. Because it was so many years ago, I have forgotten many names. Here are some that I do remember: Tina Sutchos, Tammy and Nancy (last names?), Howard Uzan, Randy Eide and Ariana and Herrick (last names?). I was there with John Padgett, Carmen, Pat on the farm, Tim Brace, and others whose names I have forgotten too. My personal email address is sbernardo@socal.rr.com I would love to talk to anyone.
Thanks,
Susan Lewis-Bernardo
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My nephew is supposed to be going in 2 days. I just found out about this website today. If anyone has any feedback, good or bad, please email me at sbernardo@socal.rr.com
Your help is appreciated!
Thanks,
Susan
(^From the other post)Maybe talking to your sibling about your experience of the CEDU program will change their mind about sending your nephew away to eaglequest nature camp in Utah
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My nephew is supposed to be going in 2 days. I just found out about this website today. If anyone has any feedback, good or bad, please email me at sbernardo@socal.rr.com
Your help is appreciated!
Thanks,
Susan
(^From the other post)Maybe talking to your sibling about your experience of the CEDU program will change their mind about sending your nephew away to eaglequest nature camp in Utah
:eek:
Should probably mention... wilderness expeditions at CEDU are nothing compared to the bataan death march boot camps they have going on now all over the place. So.. take your CEDU wilderness experience and take away the food, adequate hydration (with iodine if it needed to be filtered), qualified staff, careful monitoring to avoid things such as dehydration or hypothermia, and reasonable physical expectations to ensure that no participant is pushed beyond their limits... not easy, but not ridiculous, and if someone got sick, everything stopped.
so anyway.. take away all of that... then you end up with shitpits like eaglequest.... and every single other wilderness school out there. no matter what they tell you.. its a bunch of shit.
When RMA couldnt deal with an uppity youngun, they sent them to southern idaho survival, which was pretty similar to the stuff your nephew will probably be dealing with.
CEDU did end up with their own version of this, eventually... Ascent.
Joy and rapture... a total shithole, according to people who went through it.
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I went to Cedu in Running Springs CA in 1980. I have only seen one person from there since I left that place. I was only 12 years old when they sent me. I was the youngest one there the entire time I stayed. I would love to re-connect with people who were there. Because it was so many years ago, I have forgotten many names. Here are some that I do remember: Tina Sutchos, Tammy and Nancy (last names?), Howard Uzan, Randy Eide and Ariana and Herrick (last names?). I was there with John Padgett, Carmen, Pat on the farm, Tim Brace, and others whose names I have forgotten too. My personal email address is sbernardo@socal.rr.com I would love to talk to anyone.
Thanks,
Susan Lewis-Bernardo
Yep, I remember you. And, I could never figure out why you were even there being so young.
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You were twelve years old?? That is sad, what on earth could a twelve year old have done to be put any where?? Sounds to me like maybe the parents needed some type of help, not the kids.
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Went to RMA in June 1984, so I guess that qualifies me to post here.
First off, Cranberry Bread probably referred to the disgusting habit at RMA of taking anything left over from other meals and making bread out of it. Your morning surprise was finding out what wonderful things they had managed to do with bread that day. Cranberry Bread was generally served every morning they didn't have something nasty like oatmeal from the previous day to add to the mix.
We had a 13 year old at RMA when I was there. Finding out there was a 12 year at some point kind of clears up a question we have had for 24 years. Once upon a time, shortly after the 13 year old had completed the Final Voyage, Dan Krumptitch kept referring to a time when he took a 12 year girl up the mountain and back. But he knew this girl there was 13. Was he senile or referring to the actual 12 year old from years before? I am not sure when Dan started leading Wilderness expeditions, or when he arrived at RMA, or if he ever worked at CEDU. But we've always wanted to know if he had made a mistake or not.
I guess I skated through the program for the first six months because I wasn't really fucked up to begin with, I tended to follow rules no matter how stupid, and just got along. Sitting back and watching things, I was able to figure out pretty early that I was in a strange place. But someone once pointed out that it is easier to believe people are trying to help you, then to accept that they are hurting you. I tried to just do what I could to get through, always longing to be elsewhere, never feeling like I belonged there, but happy to have made some friends. But I knew I was being brainwashed. And that was hard for me to deal with. I remember several times suddenly becoming self-righteous, pulling other students up, actually putting in rap requests, taking care of my shit, and then realizing how fake I was being and wondering what made me do it? How I was lying just to get accepted and get rewards. Maybe it was because I saw every older student do the same thing and get away with it, get those rewards and actually enjoy some breathing space and trust?
I agree that what we learned could have been learned much more easily and without so much anger and venom. I had solid friendships before I arrived and they still exist today. RMA taught me nothing about friendship I didn't already know. My parents taught me strong values early in my childhood, what was proper and acceptable behavior. RMA gave me nothing in that department. The only tool RMA really gave me was the ability to analyze everyone I meet and size them up in an instant. And you know? Ignorance is bliss in many ways. Not being able to just relax and enjoy other peoples company is something I miss. Now when I attend a party, or family gathering, or meet new people, all I do is see how fake they are. I can't just accept them. And I hate it. It truly makes forming new friendships hard.
The I & Me was such silliness I could never buy in to it. Being a very intellectual person, I have always allowed my emotions and instincts to help guide me. Without my I, there would be no way for me to understand my Me. They are not separate. We have a right side to our brain and a left side. But it is still one brain. Your feelings are emotions are not contained in your belly or gut or heart. It all comes straight out of your head. And so all the psychobabble was lost on me in many ways.
I guess by the end of my stay there, I was half in and half out. I thought I had learned things that would be useful to me later on after I had left, and I wanted to believe my going there was somehow going to mend my relationship with my family, but I am not a believer because nothing changed for the better in my life after I left. So despite two years of hard work, doing what I was told 95% of the time, and not fucked up to begin with, I left there and had nothing good coming. My family disowned me for the most part twenty minutes after stepping off the stage. Right there in the dining room at a booth. I wasn't welcome to come home. So clearly I wasn't "fixed", certainly not in my parents eyes. And yet I wasn't fucked up when I went there. I had missed homework assignments and my parents were frightened to death that I would never graduate high school. Yet when I did, somehow I wasn't fixed. Despite my being extremely loving and caring and all touchy-feely, my parents thought what...? To this day I have no explanation for why they didn't welcome me back in to the fold. Did RMA not update them on my progress? My many successes? The answer is NO, they did not. My parents were told I was essentially failing all my classes, yet I had nearly straight A's. I got a 1590 on the SAT's and my parents were told it was an 800. They managed this by sending them only my Verbal score. They played me off on my parents for two years to keep me there and the checks rolling in. And it took years for my parents to explain this to me, or for me to understand it after many long and very painful discussions. But they don't want to accept it. They have trouble understanding how horrible RMA was and the damage it did, because as parents they don't want to see that they might have made a mistake that caused pain and harm to their child. I can accept that on some level.
So I was there in the 80's and I can tell you I am not a believer. I wasn't much of one while I was there, I was trying to be one around graduation and shortly after, but when I got back in to the real world, I could see that nothing at RMA was going to help me survive or succeed. And nothing from there ever has.
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Yep, a gal in my dorm really was 12. It must of been horrible for her to be there so young.
I'm sorry Dan and Mare died. I liked them. But, if they really became that abusive then oh fucking well.
Karma has a way of cleaning house.
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I think Im one of the few people here who didnt give a fucking shit about mare and dan. I thought mare was kind of a cunt, actually.
Still, it's sad for their kids. Losing one parent is horrible enough. Losing both is a real tragedy.
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I thought only Dan had died. Motorcycle accident. I wasn't aware Mare died as well. Very sad for the children if this is the case.
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I thought only Dan had died. Motorcycle accident. I wasn't aware Mare died as well. Very sad for the children if this is the case.
mare died before dan. cant remember why.
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Someone made mention of Charles Manson and CEDU and not seeing the connection.
When I was at RMA in 1984 I heard two stories. One was about Manson and the other about a guy named Christopher Boyce.
Christopher Boyce was a Soviet spy who worked for TRW, a defense contractor, in the communications room. He passed on secret communications information to the Soviets. He ended up hiding out in Bonners Ferry before he was captured and sentenced.
Apparently Dan Krumptitch had known Christopher Boyce some years before and when Christopher Boyce came up to Idaho, he actually came to the farm house at RMA where Dan lived, and they did target practice with Christopher Boyce's 9mm at a log or something near the house. Dan told me this story while I was there.
Then later, during our Final Voyage which went up to Katka and 4032, Dan pointed over to one of the nearby mountains and said that Charles Manson hung out there. I think the name of the hilltop was called Two Tail, but it might have been Katka.
I checked Wikipedia for a reference to this, but didn't find anything. However at the very least Manson was nearby. Maybe a little of his craziness rubbed off.
So two stories that put criminals on or within a couple of miles of Rocky Mountain Academy and one of them may have been Charles Manson. Small world.
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hmmmm... I wonder if Dan was a red.
That certainly would make him more interesting.
If this happened in the 80s, Im surprised the feds didn't check Dan out. I thought it was common practice to investigate associates of accused commies during the cold war era.
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We left Mc Carthyism in the past. We replaced accusing commies with accusing teens. Gulags of Siberia replaced with Teen Gulags in mountaintop retreats.
It is hard to know Dan's background. His last name suggests he was from Eastern Europe, Poland perhaps, which was inside the Warsaw Pact for many years. And he knew Christopher Boyce had been a spy and yet told the story so matter-of-fact when mentioning how he had "hung out" with him during his days in Idaho. Maybe he had a touch of commie in him. RMA/CEDU sure seemed anti-American in many ways to me. No Freedom.
Freedom of Speech? Nope. Bans.
Right to Peacefully Assemble? Nope. More bans.
Right to be free in your person from unreasonable searches and seizures? Ha! They'd search and take whatever they wanted anytime they wanted.
Freedom of Religion? As long as your religion was following their cult religion.
Safe in your correspondence? Nope. They'd read your mail, make you re-write it to their approval. Open your incoming mail and read it too. Usually not even delivering it unless it was from an approved list.
Secure in your communications? Nope. In violation of many federal communications laws they'd eavesdrop on your phone calls.
Right to refuse medical treatment? Only if you were willing to go on full time as punishment.
Most schools in this country have a US Flag and even a state flag waving from a pole. Don't remember ever seeing either at RMA. Most schools teach US History. The only history course I recall was sitting in front of a VCR and TV watching/sleeping through 20 hours of "The Ascent of Man".
Yeah, they were all Commie Bastards!
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There was also the "falcon and the snowman" snowman or falcon hanging out there before he was caught. that was just a few miles from cattle creek route 1.
and there was a firefight maybe when the suspect was aprrehended. there is a lot of corollary to escape in them there hills.
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Yeah, the movie "The Falcon and the Snowman" was all about Christopher Boyce and Andrew Daulton Lee who was a friend of his. Idaho sure seems a place for whack jobs to go to hang out. Hard to know if Dan knew he was a fugitive at the time. Considering Boyce was looking for a way to get to the Soviet Union at that time, knowing someone of Eastern European heritage at the time might have been helpful. Maybe Dan was going to set him up with traveling papers. We'll never know...