Post by: cleveland on September 22, 2004, 02:42:00 PM
Perhaps is was Post Traumatic Seed Disorder after all...
Post by: GregFL on September 22, 2004, 03:06:00 PM
Funny thing, I had no drugs in my system. None. For 30 days prior I had been at my mothers in Ft Lauderdale, and my drug usage was sporadic at best prior to going in anyway.
I have since learned that many people experienced this and that it is not unusual for cult inductees and others under extreme duress to experience this phenomena.
Post by: cleveland on September 22, 2004, 04:45:00 PM
Post by: rjfro22 on September 22, 2004, 11:29:00 PM
Post by: TRUCKER on September 23, 2004, 09:21:00 AM
TRUCKER
Post by: cleveland on September 23, 2004, 10:00:00 AM
However, I continued on to spend seven years of my life at the Seed, because I thought I was helping people and because I was led to believe that leaving was wrong, that I would be admitting I was a loser and that I would never be happy on my own. All wrong!
Also, as far as drugs go...there are dangers to anything we do, from sex to overeating to thrill seeking to smoking, drinking and drugging. I think saying 'Just Say No' to everything is a simple solution, but it will not always work. I have family in AA, and that's great; I have others who are unrecovered, and that's NOT great, and others who enjoy a drink now and again but are aware of the dangers. For me, quitting smoking was really hard to do, and I enjoyed the way if made me feel but I don't want to die for it. So I consciously worked on stopping. I hope that the same approach would work for me on anything I put in my body - I'm an adult. For kids, they get exposed to all this and worse every day, but I think putting a kid in a boot camp is unlikely to work in the long term. Check out the Straight sites and see all the kids who left and went on to overdose or suicide.
Besides that, when I left the Seed I needed counseling - my family had a lot of problems I needed to understand, and the most I'd learned about it at the Seed was that they were 'fucked up' - well, no kidding. I had also developed a crushing low self-esteem, partly from my family issues and guilt and partly because the Seed enforced that for me, never allowing me to think that I was good enough as a person.
If the Seed or anything else helped you, that's great. I did get a lot out of it, but mostly because there were other kids like me and we were forced to rely on each other, and became friends - friendships that ended when I left the Seed because I would be considered a 'druggie' and would not be allowed to interact with my friends. That is cultish behavior, and THAT is harmful.
Glad to hear from you, I appreciate this forum for all of us to express our views OPENLY, unlike relating in Group when if you said anything 'wrong' you'd know it. Honesty IS the first and most important policy, after all!.
_________________
Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-09-23 07:05 ]
Post by: rjfro22 on September 23, 2004, 03:28:00 PM
get me through some of horror , but when the drugs stop working for me and I no longer had any clearity to get it together, I sank deeper in the problems seeing no future, that feeling of " Impedding Doom" What the Seed did for me was take me out of the driver's seat and give me time to see things a little clearer among my peers. It certainly was intense, I still deal with family issues , even after all these years, but I no longer have to use over it, When I left the program I slipped into drinking for several years , but I never forgot whay the Seed taught me and I have been clean now for almost 19 years. I do feel sad for all the people that did not make it, but nothing is just black and white. I wanted to live
and that will and the help of the Seed helped get me through. I know some kids had some serious depression issues, but unfortunatly so little was known about it back then.
Post by: GregFL on September 23, 2004, 06:31:00 PM
Well, my opinion is that the "epidemic" and this reactive "solution" in no way justified placing young children in a cult.
Also, I have friends, seed graduates, that have commited suicied and died of overdoses.What positive thing did the seed do for them? If we are to attribute your soberness to the Seed, then the Seed gets the blame for them, and frankly, your soberness to me wasn't worth their death.
Go ahead and discuss the positives of the seed. That is one conversation I can not personally participate in because the entire experience for me was bullshit. My spirit did not appreciate being locked in that warehouse and my mind did not appreciate the "help" of crude behavior modification, and my ego could not take being in a silly cool aide love cult during high school.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-09-23 15:45 ]
Post by: rjfro22 on September 23, 2004, 10:18:00 PM
Don't get mad at me, That was my reality and believe me I feel horrible for people that commited suicide or over dosed or just didn't make it, but that happened to most of my friends that did not make it to the Seed. I am sorry you had a such tough time when you were there. If I really did not want to be in the seed at the time nothing could have kept me there, and i did escape in the first couple of weeks, but I came back a week later . Between the ages of 15 through 17 I had hitched all over the country, my point is if I could not cope with the seed at the time and the choice was suicide or getting loaded, I would have gotten loaded and if I felt like my parents were to controlling, I would have ran away to California or the Village , that's what kids did then. But I did not have that luxury , I was dirt poor and mother had to take care of 5 other children, So my life was in my own hands, This is my own experience, I can't speak for others. Being a teenager at the time was tough and I am sure it is even harder for teens today, but the seed was about staying clean one day at a time, they were not equipted to deal with heavy personal issues.
I sure some of the weathier Seedlings had professional counculing outside of the Seed. Greg, how come you didn't take off ? Why didn't you run away ? Most groups are cultish,
the military services , religion, country, schools we try to learn our bounderies and we take what we need from them, but lets face it , do we also blame them for taking lives as well.
Any way I am rambling.
Post by: GregFL on September 24, 2004, 10:20:00 AM
Okay, I was 14 and had no support of my family. I was put in a "foster home" under lock and key in a poor section of town with a doberman under my window and told he would kill me if I went out the window. I had no idea where I was and the thought of running around this place at night with no place to go and the police looking for me was terrifying. I was pad locked in the room at night. My oldcomer was physically stronger than me and we went straight from the Seed to his house with a group of older teenage boys. In conclusion, I was scared and had no where to go. I was also hungry and tired.
Further, I was told daily If I did escape the police would capture me (as they did constantly in St Pete) and bring me back. Then I would be court ordered (which meant your sentence was minimum six months and usually longer). My father was tied into the power structure in St Pete and his buddy was the chief of police, who also had a kid on the front row with me. So I took the path of least resistance and that was to comply, confess, submit, paste of a fake smile, cut my hair and join the singing, poking in the back, waving my arm, hero worshiping Art barker and telling strangers I loved them. To me it seemed the only way out.
Dude, Please stop mistaking disagreeing for anger. At some point I hope you will realize that I want you here, enjoy your perspective, and love give and take conversations.
I also hope you will come to realize your perceptions of the seed are not shared by all, and that not only the losers and drug addicts are the ones that despised their time held captive by those lovey dovey self rightous Art Barker worshipping assholes, and that harm was done to many, including my old high school friend *** Beverly who after graduating the seed, jumped to his death off the skyway bridge.
To me, the place was a looney bin and I have often wondered how someone could delude themselves into not seeing the insanity all around them and not realizing all was far from normal...check this out....
"being dead was about the best thing I could think of. I thought about how peaceful I'll be. There won't be no more Seed. I can't stand this anymore."
a 16 year old girl, whom had only smoked pot prior to being admitted to The Seed, speaking to Margaret Leonard, times staff writer. The girl had attempted to slash her wrists in the Seed bathroom by hiding a razor in her pants. She broke off the plastic part and cut half her wrist. Her oldcomer was standing outside the stall. Her attempt only cut thru the first layer of skin. The staff told her...
"Don't tell your parents. You know you just did it for attention and your mom's gone thru enough. You don't need to hurt her anymore."
The girl ran from the Seed and lived in the woods near her mother's house for a week, unable to trust her mother enough to go home, fearing she would be placed back in the Seed.
Once she got home, her mother reported to the paper, "It was a mistake." The Girl reported to the paper that she was still confused and found it hard to trust people.
Source... St Pete Times.
Post by: Antigen on September 24, 2004, 11:35:00 AM
Just about the most outrageous thing my older brothers ever did was to steal a car from a neighbor while they were out, take it joy riding around town and then return it to the driveway w/o getting caught.
Me? I was only 5 or 6 years old. I spent my entire childhood after that point living under the dark cloud of The Seed. Other kids teased me, I could't react because I was supposed to be better than all those druggiekids. Some parents who my mother had tried to recruit wouldn't allow their kids to play w/ me. That hurt! Among those were the son and daughter of the BSO officer accross the street and they had been my very best friends up till I was around 9, when my sister went in and my mom tried to convince the parents that the older sister was s druggieinneedoftreatment by virtue of here (occasional) association w/ my sister. But I couldn't let it show because .... well, I think you know why.
In the rare case that someone was kind enough to try and be my friend despite all that, my mother would interrogate me over every little thing; a phone call, an unaccounted for hour... anything! Always w/ the underlying implication that I might be turning into a druggie any minute! This continued even after she transfered me to a small Christian high school.
That hysterical perception of a dangerous epidemic of drugs destroyed my life as a kid.
Now, cut to the present. Where are all the damned bodies? I know a lot of kids and young adults were smoking pot and trying out other drugs in those days. It was all the rage. Shouldn't they all be deadinsaneorinjail now? Where are all the junkies? So few people die from illegal drugs that the DOJ doesn't even bother to keep track, so they can't have all died. There were a damned lot of them!
No, the fact is that the cop's kids and just about everyone else I grew up "with" just grew up, married or not and went on to lead productive lives. Everyone I know who's now dead, a convict or problematically drug involved went through The Program.
Every man has a property in his own person.
This nobody has any right to but himself.
The labor of his body and the work of his
hands are properly his.
--John Locke
Post by: TRUCKER on September 24, 2004, 12:16:00 PM
TRUCKER
Post by: cleveland on September 24, 2004, 03:00:00 PM
I think the seed was effective at taking a person out of their present situation and maybe shocking them into making a change. That seems to have worked for both of these people.
I think that might have worked for me too, if:
a. I had had a serious drug problem (I didn't)
b. I'd been encouraged to leave and start living my own productive life
c. I'd been taught how to deal with the world as it actually is instead of dividing everything up into Seedlings (us, all good) and Druggies (everyone else, all bad) and nothing in between.
But obviously, even with flaws, it did work for some of you and I am glad that it did, although if it was worth it for some of the other people Greg talks of who were harmed, and the Drug War in general that Ginger discusses, that's the bigger debate today, I think.
Hey, my mom's a drunk today and if there were a seed to stick her in...you know, it would be tempting...I'm sort of kidding here...
_________________
Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-09-24 12:00 ]
Post by: rjfro22 on September 24, 2004, 04:53:00 PM
You were too young at the time, to really have experienced it in the same way. Do you remember the Dania jetties or Grenalds park and every concert in south florida.
they were huge drug fests of dealing and thousands of teen mixing every king of drug you can think off, and let's not forget all the rock stars of that 1970 to 1973 that over -dosed. Kids were overdosing in school.
Every where you went in those days there were drugs. Peer pressure was at it's worst.
the hippie culture by this time had become main tream, right after Woodstock and Easy Rider. The influence in film and music was a big factor, and most of our parents really did'nt have a clue. Your mother over reacted out of the fear of what she was hearing. They really did not understand. I remember ft lauderdale beach back then, it was unbelievable, freaks every where. You could get any thing you wanted every where. Does anyone remember how it was? I was there it was crazy . fact
Post by: Antigen on September 24, 2004, 05:40:00 PM
There was a short lived fad in excessive drug use. I'm sure someone has overdosed at school at one time or another, but it certainly wasn't a widespread problem. The one story I remember about a rock concert was that a 13yo girl was trampled to death when the crowd rushed the stage.
But if there had been hundreds and thousands of genuine teenaged addicts in need of addiction treatment, then why did Art go after casual pot smokers and work so hard at convincing the parents, cops and everyone else that pot was a gateway to heroin addiction?
The obvious answer (Occam's Razor) is that there wasn't that much of a market for addiction treatment.
If you were actually addicted and in need of help, I'm sorry to hear it and glad you beat it. But you must know that most of those kids who got into the Summer of Love fad didn't let it take over their lives. There was no epidemic. Not even a pandemic. If there had been, then why was The Seed packed w/ kids who were not addicts and why all the hard work to get them to confess to being addicts when they clearly were not?
You say my mom overreacted. I won't argue against that, she certainly did. The only one of the 6 of us to escape The Seed was my older sister who was already in college. And she remains the only one of us w/ a 4 year degree.
But it's not asif my mother somehow got it into her head, all on her own, that druggies were everywhere and all of her kids and everyone in the neighborhood needed The Seed. Art pounded that drum continually and the Group and Staff reenforced it relentlessly.
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Post by: rjfro22 on September 24, 2004, 06:31:00 PM
Summer of love? I was not talking about the summer of love, i was talking about
sex , drugs rock and roll the begining of the seventies, more extreme more dangerous and kids a lot younger. Drugs in your face everywhere, it was expected of you by fellow peers. Many of the kids in the Seed did have drug problems , and maybe just in the begining stages, some were saved and some were'nt and some went on to find that recreational use was no problem for them. So little was known about drugs then. But it was real , Yes there were good kids that tried things a couple of times and got caught, but over all most kids in the Seed at the time were there because they needed to be there through the courts or whatever . I am simply stating what
I experienced around me, I was there. Does anybody remember ? I would like to state that I was not addicted to anything, I simply could not say no to what was in my face and reality was something I could not deal with at that time. I believe many kids had that problem as well, drugs were Epidemic.
Post by: Antigen on September 24, 2004, 07:55:00 PM
At one point, one of my brothers' friends took an appartment @ Hidden Harbour. Immediately, that became the community drug den. I remember being there with my brother one day when he stopped by when he was babysitting me. Next thing ya' know, the girl can't pay her rent, neither can anyone else, so the appartment goes away.
The girl wound up moving into our spare bedroom. She babysat me and other kids while working her way through college. She, thankfully, didn't get shanghied into The Seed but, instead, completed college and went on to be a teacher.
I can understand how something like The Seed would be very attractive to you. A lot of the popular cults of the day focused almost entirely on disenchanted or otherwise vulnerable young adults. When I was on front row, I remember thinking I'd no longer be such an outsider. Everybody had to love and accept me w/o question. It was a rule. (This, of course, was after around 6 hours of harsh browbeating in the intake 'interview')
But there are and were far better ways to find direction in life.
Government operates best when it allows all messengers to offer their views, allowing the American people to decide which take root and which wither away.
--Harold Furchtgott-Roth, member of the Federal Communications Commission
Post by: rjfro22 on September 24, 2004, 09:21:00 PM
Yes I was typical for that time period. aimless and hopless.
Please do me a favor and tell me what other choices there was for a poor boy or from a working family, Please don't say the service ..
The Seed was there and some how I found it.
I never felt brain washed , Yes I felt like I had to do it there way and I have been "come down on' sometimes when I deserved it and other times I could have use a little compassion.
It was what it was . I got through it.That little guy from Brooklyn (Art} saved my life and I am forever grateful. The Seed was just a stepping stone for me, and believe me I know it wasn't for everyone, But chalk it up and move on.
I
Post by: Antigen on September 25, 2004, 12:51:00 PM
Some got jobs, some went hiking, some threw themselves into religion. Remember the Green Room and Agape? Those were fairly strange groups, too, but at least they only met a few times a week and didn't prohibit communication w/ family and friends. But most just simply quit the excessive partying and got back to whatever they were doing. That's what usually happens.
Same thing was going on, btw, 15 years later when I met my husband. Our primary entertainment, broke as we were, was to go to the neighborhood party house just to see what happened next. All kinds of craziness going on there. All kinds of drugs and even a couple of aspiring rock stars.
But people grew out of it. By the time I met him, my husband had already quit all drugs but pot and beer after a bad experience w/ belladona. He was 18 then. But his friends were still his friends and some of them are still friends to this day. They all grew up, settled down, got jobs and spouses and kids (not necessarily in that order).
The little guy from Brooklyn didn't save your life, friend. You did that. He just stood there and took credit.
The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.
O'Brien, the apparatchik
Post by: rjfro22 on September 25, 2004, 02:17:00 PM
No one said the Seed was for everyone, And yes many people grew up and did just fine, The Seed was a small dot in the scheme of things, Those other choices you mentioned I never heard of, They sound more like adult programs . Again you were to 5 or 6 years old when I was in the Seed, it was very different then. I am here to tell you from where I came from, I couldn't see the choices, I was pretty much on my own from 14 to 18, I didn't just pick up a telephone book and have the luxury of picking a place.
I think you are putting an adult spin on this, We were confused teens at the time. at the time I went in, I was at rock bottom and Art ( The Seed) took me in and gave me some simple steps to follows some tough love and some things that I didn't agree with, And on that note I believe had that not happened, I wouldn't have made it. . That was my experience. WE can only speak from our own eyes. I believe there were many people that did not belong there, but that was because of thier parents, and partly because of the times, like I said it was a relativly a new problem (drugs), and people really did believe that weed leads to harder drugs, which by the way was true for many of us, So of course parents who discovered pot or pills on their children over- reacted. and sent them to the Seed. No one really knew back then. I personally found high school to be cultist , mean spirited , the have 's and the have not's people impossing some real meanless garbage on me, I could go on about what a horror high school was, so I just didn't go regardless of the law and what my mother thought. In the Seed we were all pretty much equal. .
Post by: Antigen on September 25, 2004, 08:12:00 PM
Sunds like you were young and impressionable and got taken in by a smooth operator. But don't give him credit for saving your life. You did that.
Patient memoirs are a kind of protest literature like slave narratives or witness testimonies.
G.A.Hornstein
Post by: GregFL on September 25, 2004, 08:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-09-25 11:17:00, rjfro22 wrote:
"Antigen,
In the Seed we were all pretty much equal. ."
If there ever was a multi tiered unequal system, it was this cult.
First, there was Art Barker..Hero worshipped as the savior and you were lucky if he even smiled at you.
Then there was his spouse, which most of us didn't even know but somehow we reverred her as almost a saint.
Then certain staff members, John, Suzie, Libby, were almost non approachable by the inductees.
Next were the second tier senior staffers.
Then came the Junior staffers.
Next, Oldtimers. My how they were so much more seedlike (at least the ones hanging around).
Then, the oldcomers with juice...the guys that had been in jail or actual addicts. They were looked up to and called on so much more.
Then the oldcomers almost off their program that got to sit in the back row.
Then of course, the guys tough enough to pull guard duty. They were certainly more equal than the pussys that couldn't.
then olcomers in general.
Next, those guys that had earned the right to go home.
Then those guys that no longer had to public confess.
All the way to the very unequal guys on the front row.
All equal in the Seed?
Hardly.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-09-25 17:37 ]
Post by: GregFL on September 25, 2004, 08:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-09-25 17:12:00, Antigen wrote:
Sunds like you were young and impressionable and got taken in by a smooth operator.
All the way to repeating Art's ever popular program mantra 30 years later, that he would be deadinsaneorinjail (or the shortened version..it saved my life)
and then we find out he just was wayward like most people are at some point in their life.
RJFR, where are all those bodies Ginger alluded to? Are all your old friends really dead or in jail?
That would be highly unusual to say the least, but we almost always hear that, at least initially, from people who support the program.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-09-25 17:55 ]
Post by: GregFL on September 25, 2004, 08:33:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-09-25 17:12:00, Antigen wrote:
"Are you joking? Art constantly said The Seed was for everyone! I remember all the talk of taking over the world.
We had 10 year olds that were barely 80 pounds standing up and relating about how they would have eventually been heroin addicts because they had druggie additudes and how the seed had "Saved their lives", and they were so small and meek you could barely hear them talk. I even had one such little guy, about 12, as a newcomer.
It was criminal to lock down these little children.
Here is Art's take on his vision of How the seed was for everybody...
"I don't mean to just stop with a Seed in Pinellas. That might be the community which would be the right place for another dream I have. I can see a university type of complex with young people trained there who have come from all over the country to take the program back to their own communities. After Pinellas, we'll be getting a Seed going in Jacksonville. Then there will be no Flordia area uncovered....I see Seeds all over the country"
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-09-25 17:35 ]
Post by: rjfro22 on September 25, 2004, 08:34:00 PM
My goal was to live , and there were plenty of people like me that needed what they offered,
if you want to make more out of it then that, go ahead. It really was very simple. You have a different story then me, and I won't speak for you.
Post by: GregFL on September 25, 2004, 08:42:00 PM
Again my friend, tell us about all those dead bodies.
Just so you know, I got a few. Some of my old friends, Dale Long for one, that did not go to the Seed, died of drug overdoses or suspiciously.
The funny thing most of my people dead, or my bodies if you will, are all seedlings.
Go figure...
"Yes, He'll be ok...he died"
Mother of a seedling upon answering her front door for another seedling who stopped by to pick him up to go to group. The mother explained that he wouldn't be going to group, that Jimmy went around to the side of the house and shot himself earlier that day.
Source, former seedling "Surdal", the SDF
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-09-25 18:22 ]
Post by: GregFL on September 25, 2004, 09:16:00 PM
I know of one Seed graduate on death row right now and he tried to use the abuse he endured in the Seed as a death row appeal.
Here is an excerpt from the courts ruling (which denied Jason Walton a new trial)
"evidence was also introduced which revealed that Walton had abused drugs as an adolescent and teenager, and had been enrolled in a radical therapy program which likely left him severly emotionally scarred, but which had not halted his continued abuse of illegal drugs."
I guess he ended up deadinsaneorINJAIL in spite of being a seed graduate, eh? Also emotionally scarred and on drugs according to the appeal judge that reviewed the evidence.
This shit is just too out there to make up.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-09-25 18:21 ]
Post by: Antigen on September 25, 2004, 09:18:00 PM
The graduate with a Science degree asks, "Why does it work?"
The graduate with an Engineering degree asks, "How does it work?"
The graduate with an Accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost?"
The graduate with a Liberal Arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that?"
--Anonymous
Post by: rjfro22 on September 25, 2004, 09:28:00 PM
that never sought out help: Connie, Tom, Flo, Carman and her brother Ron, Brian, Patty, Arthur, Kenny, Coco and Victor. My own family,
my two sisters and brother suffer heavy disabilities from years of drug use. My question is what did the Seed do to drive someone to kill themselves, I honestly don't remember anyone killing themselves or at least because of the Seed. If the seed came to my door to get me and I really did not want ot go, I would have taken off, If my choice was suicide or getting loaded, I would have gotten loaded . The Seed was only a few months out of our lives, Are you trying to tell me most of your friends commited suicide because of the Seed. I hear you but I can't by that,.
Post by: GregFL on September 25, 2004, 10:03:00 PM
My points that you are missing.
we were told that we would be deadinsaneorinjail without the Seed. Supporters constantly point to their own lives as PROOF of this, including you.
I submit to you that you are just parroting the Seed mantra and that you really don't know the path your life would have taken without the Seed. Would you have died? Maybe. Become rich and famous? Maybe. This is a mystery.
My next point, for every person you can name dead or stunted or harmed because they didn't get treatment, someone can counter with a dead guy, emotionally scarred or drug addicted graduate. The 90 percent success rate was nothing but a lie. It never existed
Many people that were graduates died of drugs and or other things or ended up in jail. I submit this as evidence that the seed wasn't the thing that saved people from this outcome and if it was so powerfull, that you must attribute all outcomes post seed, including those harmed.
Studies from the 70s and reports from Pyschologists confirm that people leaving the Seed were doing so in states of emotional and psychological harm. And I will tell you from first person and from multiple conversations with many people that very very many people felt alone, inadequate, full of despair, and had suicidal thoughts post seed. We were told we were powerless if we rejected the Seed, and for those of us that rejected it, we paid a emotional price which was varied and unique to each of us.
More quotes for you.....
"if any credence is to be given to the observations of the national, state and local experts, then the serious possibility exists that those who complete The Seed may return to drug use or develop other serious psychological, emotional or behavioral difficulties"
From the House congressional committee staff report.
And if this was really happening, Art Barker with his immense love for his Seedlings, must have immediately reacted. You suppose?
"The man is a liar and a fool."
"The psychiatrists can't do a damn thing with kids on drugs"
Speaking of Dr. Raymond Killinger, a Ft lauderdale psychiatrists who claimed to be treating "an increasing number" of children who entered psychiatric hospitals after being harmed by the Seed.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-09-25 19:06 ]
Post by: Anonymous on September 25, 2004, 10:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-09-25 18:28:00, rjfro22 wrote:
The Seed was only a few months out of our lives,
Maybe this is the crux of the difference. For some of you, you had a perceived problem, joined the Seed, Stopped using drugs and moved on with your lives. You identify your time in the Seed as a positive time where you changed your direction. The seed represents a brief interlude in your young adult lives.
For many others of us, we were forced in under lies and threats, Our personalities were stripped from us,The Seed took over our families, we were threatened with it constantly even after completing it, we felt locked up, imprisoned, harrased, embarrassed, captive. Our families spoke the secret language around the house and had seed license plates. The Seed represents a huge negative event in our childhood and we were forced to either reject our personalities or reject the Seed.
Two very different experiences for sure.
gregfl
Post by: rjfro22 on September 25, 2004, 10:54:00 PM
Is what you are saying is using drugs had nothing to do with there weakness , in fact you almost sound like you are saying they used drugs because of the Seed. You know that old saying, " you can't bullshit a bullshitter", well you and I know we can all get one over on a phychologist. But we couldn't put one over on our peers, . The power of the seed was us all sharing similar problems and we really could not get one over on each other, been down that. Art let that process work on it's own. People who choose not to remain clean ,did so on there own. They are solely responsible for themselves, The Seed offered some strict guidance for a few months out of our lives. YOU GOT IT OR YOU DIDN'T. I slipped after a couple of years, but never to the level I did when I came into the seed , and I never felt quilty about it.. After a few years of wasting my live and remembering what the Seed has taught me (I know that makes you cringe) I rebounded and it has been 19 years . Remember drugs were everywhere and it was part of our generation , that was part of the real problem. I do keep in touch with a few seedling from the past and they drink and whatever, and they seem happy enough to me. Who am I to judge, that's what works for them. We talk occasionally about the old days at the seed, and discuss the good and the bad have a few laughs, but over all we had good memories .
Post by: Anonymous on September 26, 2004, 08:36:00 AM
"I know we can all get one over on a phychologist. But we couldn't put one over on our peers"
_______________________________________________
How long ago did you get off your program?
Post by: Anonymous on September 26, 2004, 11:40:00 AM
SR84
Post by: rjfro22 on September 26, 2004, 11:43:00 AM
Post by: Robin Martin on October 27, 2004, 11:25:00 PM
Post by: Robin Martin on October 27, 2004, 11:39:00 PM
I went through such withdrawals (not from any particular drug) but from my f***** up lifestyle AND drug use that I relate the experience to that of "A Clockwork Orange"
Don't know how many of you saw that movie, but it's very similar to what I felt I experienced(brainwashing - so be it) Anyway, it was a very powerful movie experience which seemed to parallel my recovery program w/ the Seed.
I would get physically ill if I smelled Pot which was VERY strange for me. I would pass by my old hangouts and get nauseous. Very strange, indeed but it didn't matter because it worked for ME. I know of several people that refused to let go of their past, for whatever reason, and believe they probably suffer today. My life is good - not perfect my any means, but good!
Post by: GregFL on October 28, 2004, 01:05:00 AM
Something you may have missed...while it worked for a while on Alex, eventually the "experiment" was a failure.
Good analogy Robin!!!!
Post by: Antigen on October 28, 2004, 10:37:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-09-25 19:54:00, rjfro22 wrote:
Greg,
Is what you are saying is using drugs had nothing to do with there weakness , in fact you almost sound like you are saying they used drugs because of the Seed. You know that old saying, " you can't bullshit a bullshitter", well you and I know we can all get one over on a phychologist. But we couldn't put one over on our peers, . The power of the seed was us all sharing similar problems and we really could not get one over on each other...
I agree w/ Greg about the difference between voluntary involvement by people who actually had drug problems and involuntary involvement by people who did not.
When you showed up and heard about all the classic scenareos and problems of substance abuse, it may have seemed like they were reading you like a book. But so damned many kids got roped into the Program who were not in big trouble w/ drugs. And we were described and derided in precisely the same terms. Guess what? You got bullshitted.
They serve so that we don't have to. They offer to give up their lives so that we can be free. It is, remarkably, their gift to us. And all they ask for in return is that we never send them into harm's way unless it is absolutely necessary. Will they ever trust us again?
Michael More
Post by: Anonymous on October 28, 2004, 06:11:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on October 29, 2004, 07:51:00 AM
& I would probably seriously debate giving the finger to if I saw them on the street. I'm sure Greg had it tough with his family envolvement in "Straight" he probably felt like he was robbed of a family and probably was how do you get over all that shit? I guess by doing what hes doing now. Antigen you baffle me & scare me a little too. I hope you can get over your shit as well. I feel bad for you but It seems to me you blame the wrong people for your misfortune. Forget about it please for your own sake. Just move on, look for the good in things. Sorry I had to say it post after post that you write I picture you in army fatigues with black boots ready for a fight.
Post by: Anonymous on October 29, 2004, 10:19:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on October 29, 2004, 10:20:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on October 29, 2004, 10:38:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on October 29, 2004, 11:35:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on October 29, 2004, 12:10:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on October 29, 2004, 04:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-10-29 04:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
Antigen, were you actually on the program? I was under the impression that you were not, from previous posts. I have heard opinions from you that are based on maybe a couple of months in time like some guy donating lunchoen meat. If I were you I think you should contact him. Find out from him, now that you are an adult & can comprehend things in an adult manner just how much food & for what length of time this donation took place. In my mind from my perspective your judgement is way off.
I was there at open meeting every week for years when Art would cry poor-mouth and pass the plate. I was there at home when my brothers each came home. I was there when my sister went in. I was there when she brought home newcomers. I was also there in the house the day my older brother came home from the Army and was given the ultimatum to either join his little brothers in The Seed or leave the family. I was there when one brother married a former staffer, Pam O., and when another married another Seedling.
Louie is an old family friend by way of my dad. I've known him as long as I can remember, before, during and after my brothers and sister's programs. I saw him last a couple of years ago before we moved out of state. He used to drop by every week or two to shoot the shit and deliver some surplus bread from the Itallian bakery where he still works. It was a good pretense for a visit and made for some great bread pudding. And I was there, at the Plantation Elementary School kitchen assembling all those sandwiches from Louie's cold cuts, week after week, every Sunday after church, as a 'volunteer'. (my mother volunteered, I was conscripted)
And I was there, sitting out in the parking lot w/ my dad through Open Meeting (remember the old abandoned orange grove outside of the SR84 building?) when he was not allowed inside because he didn't pass muster at his 'checkout' interview.
More to the point, The Seed was there as a major imposing presence in the landscape of my childhood from the time I was about 6 years old till I entered Straight, Inc. at age 15. Louie will tell you, if you ask him, about all the hundreds of pounds of cold cuts he sent down there to you. But Seedlings weren't the only people Lou had a soft spot for. He'd feed broke teenagers or just about anybody in need. He never complained, was glad to help. I've never burdoned him w/ the truth of the matter. He's just a sweet old man who always did what he could for just about anybody.
Quote
Antigen you baffle me & scare me a little too. I hope you can get over your shit as well. I feel bad for you but It seems to me you blame the wrong people for your misfortune. Forget about it please for your own sake. Just move on, look for the good in things. Sorry I had to say it post after post that you write I picture you in army fatigues with black boots ready for a fight.
LOL! Thanks for the feigned concern. Almost makes me nostalgic for that good old once over by Art at the door on Open Meeting night.
The Seed stole my family from me when I was a little kid. I don't want anyone else to fall for the same line of shit, and the fact is that Straight and the other follow-on programs are selling the same line of shit as you folks did. Straight was the same program run more successfully. I was there, both places, for years.
Fear not, this is what I really look like.
Maybe you're the one who's perceptions are distorted.
We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.
-- Ben Franklin At the signing of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776.
Post by: Anonymous on October 29, 2004, 10:30:00 PM
Post by: Robin Martin on October 30, 2004, 12:43:00 AM
Post by: GregFL on October 30, 2004, 11:25:00 AM
Anon, you post just plain sucks. You as so many others have done have tried to turn a intelligent adult conversation into a veiled attack on Ginger and I.
It is an old tactic that didn't work then and still doesn't work. Try again.
And yes, the incident at the pool was a big thing...to me. That is my story, it meant a lot when it happened. Sorry if you cannot understand varying points of view.
Good day.
Post by: Somejoker on October 30, 2004, 11:28:00 AM
Move on indeed.
Post by: Anonymous on October 30, 2004, 01:18:00 PM
Post by: Tony Stark on October 31, 2004, 03:38:00 AM
Time is running out. The Indians' botanical knowledge is disappearing even faster than the plants themselves.
--Richard Schultes, Harvard University educator, authority on medicinal plants
Post by: Somejoker on October 31, 2004, 10:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-10-30 10:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"sorry- I think your wrong "anonymous" has made 68 posts. More than one anonymous, my friend."
And I have privy to each and every anon post here, where they come from including the location and IP address, which "anon" makes each post, and how many posts that "anon" person has made.
Funny you would tell me how this website works.
BTW, it is now 73 posts.
Try again.
[ This Message was edited by: Somejoker on 2004-10-31 19:50 ]
Post by: Anonymous on November 02, 2004, 07:19:00 AM
Post by: Antigen on November 02, 2004, 01:52:00 PM
The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of women's emancipation.
--Elizabeth Cady-Stanton