Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Paige on August 16, 2004, 11:44:00 AM
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AMANDA IS HOME!!!!!!
She arrived home on Wednesday evening August 11 and is settling in well. She has been able to spend lots of time with her brother and the other family members who have missed her greatly.
She was not due to get out of ALA for another 4 or 5 months and was told by her mother and ALA staff members that there was a possibility that she would be sent to a lock down facility in the Dominican Republic.
Amanda will be safe with all of us and is startimg school today.
God bless all of you who have prayed for her safe return. We are consulting with our Attorneys this afternoon and I will keep you all posted as we learn more details about Abundant Life Academy.
Again thank you to all of you for your support and help. Our girl is home.
Paige
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I am glad she is home Paige.
Why was she told she was heading for a lock down in the dominican republic?? What Lock down??
How did that turn into coming home?
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Paige, has she talked at all about abuse?
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As we all get settled and get the legalities in place I will let you know of the day to day events at Abundant Life Academy and how she came about coming home. Until then wish her good luck on her first day in a public school. She has wanted to go to school for a very long time and is finally being able to do that.
She knows that it will not be easy since she hasn't been in school since she was about 10, she is 17 now, but this is what she wants and I am sure she will do well.
I hope that all of you will wish her the best.
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Good to hear it! Thanks for posting. I wonder about you guys quite often. Look forward to finding out more.
Whenever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force.
Thomas Jefferson: Kentucky Resolutions, 1798
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I'm glad someone else finally came home :grin:
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Paige - of coArse we wish her well!
School will be hard I'm afraid, but no reason to think she won't do fine.
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Sometimes Paige, God will give you what you want, just to show you that your will is not what is best. However, just because you got what you think you wanted, don't deceive yourself into thinking that this was the Lord's will.
In spite of the manipulation and continued lies, the Lord will work this situation out to His glory, in spite of the defiance displayed by you and other family members towards the girl's parents. This is apparent from your writings.
God has allowed this for a reason. nfortunately, the girl will probably have a lot of hard lessons to learn. You have greatly contributed to the grief and pain she will no doubt experience in the years to come.
You have taught her through this that it is ok to defy the authority over you, even though that is in direct contradiction to what the Bible teaches us.
If you and the other family members involved truly loved the girl, as you claim you all do, you all would have done the right thing and supported the parents, not started smear campaign that has involved the unsaved.
The Lord is not mocked. He will reward you appropriately for your actions in this matter. The Lord tells us to "Honor your parents". By your actions and your writings, you have told the world via the internet, that God's commands do not matter to you and the other family members. What a horrible legacy to leave behind.
As far as her not attending public school, how awesome that her parents loved her enough to be willing to make the necessary sacrafices to allow the mom to home school the girl.
How awesome that the mom loves the girl enough to be willing to spend so much time with her. In this day and age where parents count down the days until school starts in the fall, the girl's mom chose to spend the time with her.
The twisting and perverting of the truth in this matter is beyond comprehension. Is this what you are teaching the girl's brother? To bad mouth those who do not agree with you? To be rebellious to authority? The Lord is not pleased with a rebellious heart.
This whole drama you have created is like the Emporers New Clothes. All were fooled, except for one person who stood up and told the truth.
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Dear Lord,
Thanks for dropping by our humble little forum. Always a pleasure. But Lord, just one quesion, why do you refer to yourself in the third person and to Amanda as "the girl"?
Just curious,
Thanks again for honoring us w/ direct communication of your will.
:rofl: "...In general, it's just an overall sign in America that there doesn't seem to be as much respect for authority figures, and that's a bad trend. It just strikes me that people can say whatever they want to and get away with it, and that's not good."
--But David Murrell, exec. dir. of the Florida Police Benevolent Association
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Looks like the family must still be torn asunder. I had hoped a friendly, mutual decision had been reached.
Well Paige, I have no idea where Truth here lies; nor dose anyone else on this forum; but I do hope you will work toward healing the family breach and helping Amanda find good footing on solid Rock.
II Samuel 22 vs 2
Matthew 7 vs 24
I also hope she enjoys school. Public school aint no bed of roses, tho. If she wants to return to home schooling, will she be able to? You might want to keep that as a back up plan.
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Hi Craig? so nice of you to expound on this forum. At this point in time your opinions are of little to no consequence but you are certainly entitled to them.
I would like to know how it is that you think you know so much about this case? If you knew the truth then you would know that the mother did not spend time with "the girl" and that the girl was never home schooled and her credits were faked by the mother.
Apparently you truly have no concept of the reality of this situation. In the future if you would like to expound please feel free to do so but I will not respond to you anymore unless you are willing to identify yourself. If you are so positive of your righteousness then show yourself or just go away.
Amanda would not be home today without God directing this. Apparently we do not have the same God. Mine is a merciful and loving
God who has brought Amanda home to the people who love her.
Best Wishes to you whoever you are and we will all (except for you) continue to thank the Lord for bringing our girl home to those of us who love her and have missed her.
Oh yes, and thank you for acknowledging in the end that yes with God's strength and help I stood up and told the truth and will continue to do so.
Best Wishes to you and may God have mercy on your soul.
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Thank you for your thoughts. Yes, it is of the upmost importance for all involved to heal and I feel that a mutual agreement is on the horizon.
Amanda will have many options as far as her schooling goes but at least now she is guaranteed and education.
Counseling will start soon to help all who wish to participate to bring the entire family back together again and with God's help all will heal and have wonderful lives.
May God bless you for your thoughts and prayers.
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For those of you with the 'holier than thou' attitudes - those of you who are ready to use Scripture AGAINST others - those of you who are quick to judge: Please, Judge RIGHTEOUS judgment -especially when dealing with CHILDREN.
Why don't you go the full distance when telling children that they are to obey their parents?
There is more on the matter than most of you EVER present - with more stern warnings from The Lord for the PARENTS than for the CHILDREN.
Scripture says (Authorized KJV quoted):
Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons. Colossians 3:20,21, & 25
DID YOU GET THAT?
FATHERS, PROVOKE NOT YOUR CHILDREN TO ANGER.
Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me: Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD. Numbers 32:11,12
DID YOU GET THAT? IT WAS THOSE UNDER TWENTY YEARS OLD WHO ENTERED INTO THE PROMISED LAND - THOSE UNDER 20 YEARS OF AGE WERE NOT JUDGED BY GOD - SO WHY DOES ANYBODY DARE JUDGE THOSE UNDER 20 YEARS OF AGE? DO THOSE WHO UNRIGHTEOUSLY PASS SUCH JUDGMENT AGAINST CHILDREN CLAIM TO KNOW MORE THAN GOD? HAS GOD CHANGED? READ ON...
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Malachi 3:6
DID YOU GET THAT? THE LORD DOES NOT CHANGE: SINCE THE LORD DID NOT JUDGE THOSE UNDER 20 YEARS OF AGE IN TIMES PAST, HE WILL NOT JUDGE THEM NOW!!!
WHICH 'LORD' AM I TALKING ABOUT WHO DID THAT? THIS ONE:
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. Acts 3:13
DID YOU GET THAT? THE SAME GOD THAT GLORIFIED JESUS - ABRAHAM, ISAAC, & JACOB's GOD - IS THE VERY SAME GOD THAT DID NOT JUDGE THOSE 20 YEARS OLD AND UNDER!!! SINCE GOD - WHO GLORIFIED JESUS -DIDN'T JUDGE THOSE UNDER 20 YEARS OLD, WHY DO YOU UPHOLD PARENTS AND OTHERS TO PASS JUDGMENT ON CHILDREN OF THE SAME AGE? GOD CLEARLY DIDN'T AND WON'T PASS JUDGMENT ON THE ACTIONS OF CHILDREN UNDER 20 YEARS OF AGE!!! (ARGUE WITH GOD - DON'T ARGUE WITH ME, FOR IT IS WRITTEN & I DIDN'T WRITE IT!!!)
A WARNING to those of you who persist in erring in your ways by clearly not passing RIGHTEOUS judgment - RIGHTEOUS judgment is judgment that GOD has SET THE GUIDELINES for - such as NOT JUDGING THOSE UNDER 20 YEARS OF AGE.
HUMBLE YOURSELVES AS LITTLE CHILDREN - BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE:
And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Matthew 18:2-6
IF YOU ARE OFFENDING A CHILD UNDER 20 YEARS OF AGE BY THREATENING THEM WITH GOD'S WRATH AND TELLING THEM THAT GOD IS JUDGING THEM AT THIS STAGE OF THEIR LIVES - WOE TO YOU!!!
God has already spoken on this matter and it is tragic that most don't even know the example that God set for ALL of us to follow where childrens' actions and God's TRUE judgments are concerned!
Take heed that no MAN deceive you!
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That was good!!!! Bravo!
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How many GRANDPARENTS have tried to get the PARENTS to NOT SEND THEIR GRANDCHILD AWAY?
The Scripture says, "CHILDREN OBEY YOUR PARENTS".
That is telling PARENTS (who are CHILDREN) to listen to their OWN parents. So those who DISCOUNT what GRANDPARENTS want - even if it is against a PARENT'S wishes - who has the FINAL authority - Scripturally speaking?
Here's the Scripture, again:
Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons. Colossians 3:20,21, & 25
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Craig? You seem to be a few fries short of a happy meal, pal.
Your writing style is about as distinctive as a fingerprint.
You're definitely eccentric. And your thoughts are disorganized and rambling. And you're obsessive about a very small, very controlling minority set of religious opinions.
I hope that someday you get the good mental health care you so obviously need, and I hope that when you get it that it's the best care possible for you.
You said, "The Lord must have some reason" but you've clearly never considered that the Lord's reason might be to do what's best for Amanda instead of what *you* think is best for her.
You never consider that you might be the one who is wrong, and in your refusal to seriously, soberly, sincerely accept that possibility, you substitute your judgement for God's.
You're playing God, Craig.
But I believe the highest power is merciful to the mentally infirm, and will have compassion for you.
You've decided that your interpretation *is* God's Word, instead of just your human, fallible interpretation. You've set yourself up in the place of God.
Consider that God may have "allowed" Amanda to come home because that's the best place for her and because *your interpretation* of God's Will was just flat wrong.
Craig? If God is talking back when you talk to God, the little voice or little voices aren't God.
Timoclea
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Paige--I am so happy for you and Amanda, and I hope she takes to learning like a duck to water and is able to make up for lost time.
Good luck to her in school! :smile:
Timoclea
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I decided to take a look at Abundant Life Academy's web page. This one thing that Craig puts forth - he didn't bother to say what Bible version he used, and I personally find that the Authorized KJV cuts down on confusion, but I'll show you what Craig has set forth and then the KJV wording - and the REST of the matter that Craig so conveniently failed to put forth.
Abundant Life Academy's web page says:
"Your teen does have a destiny in Christ, "...For I know the plans that I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for calamity, to give you a future, and a hope..." -Jeremiah 29:11
Authorized KJV says:
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Jeremiah 29:11
Quite a LOT of difference isn't there? The Lord does NOT think evil of children or anybody - The Lord has thoughts of PEACE toward us ALL so that a child and everyone can have an expected end.
Does describing teens as TROUBLED in ANY WAY cause ANYBODY to have thoughts of PEACE toward a CHILD? (Abundant Life Academy and Craig Rogers on their definition page use the word TROUBLED no less than 16 times. It is clear that they are trying to get anybody who reads there "comfortable" with that AWFUL word! Not what God wants, I don't believe, but apparently what CRAIG ROGERS wants.)
It is through THOUGHTS of PEACE that The Lord DRAWS PEOPLE TO HIM and we are to emulate The Lord if we are to speak His TRUTH. Read on...
Further found in Jeremiah, Chapter 29, are these verses which Abundant Life Academy does not put forth in their advertisements - and you will see why they don't once you read - there is one that I believe speaks directly to AMANDA AND PAIGE -verse 14, below:
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:11-13
FOR PAIGE AND AMANDA, THUS SAITH THE LORD:
And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive. Jeremiah 29:14
THERE'S MORE THAT CRAIG DIDN'T REPORT - MAYBE BECAUSE GOD SENT A WARNING AGAINST THE LIKES OF CRAIG ROGERS AND ABUNDANT LIFE ACADEMY?
For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed.
For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 29:8-9
The Lord has spoken! 'Nuf said CRAIG!
God IS with you AMANDA & PAIGE - NEVER doubt it! GO IN PEACE: Amanda, you are a WONDERFUL child. Paige: You are an AWESOME person with a TRUE heart for The Lord!!! (You go girls!!!)
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And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive. Jeremiah 29:14
You could apply this to Amanda. . .
However, I feel it should be pointed out it was actually said to the Israelites; it was a prophecy that Jeremiah gave that the people would one day be re-gathered to the land. A prophecy that has been fulfilled in recent history and was considered quite impossible by the scholars and theologians prior to God doing it.
Jeremiah was known as the weeping prophet; b/c God kept giving him prophecies he didn't want to deliver; About the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the dispensation of the people. However, God in His mercy also gave Jeremiah the prophecies about the return of the people; And that is what we have here.
Isaiah also had much to say about this subject.
And Ezekiel's famous chapter 37 - all about the rebirth of Israel.
Actually, the Prophets all spoke to this.
Like you, good sister/brother, when troubled, I will often open The Book and read, and apply what I find there to my life and situation; However, it's important to be clear what was actually being spoken to when expounding on the Prophets.
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Hey congrats on getting her out of the program.
What happened? How did you get her out if her mother wanted to keep her there? Are you a relative? I am curious because you hear of split families where one side wants to incarcerate and the other doesn't and it turns into a big family mess.
(I went to a TBS and had to split; fortunately, my Dad did not send me back; my mother would have. I think he was starting to feel there was something fishy about the whole thing.)
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Ben Avraham
posted August 17, 2004 07:48 PM
In the day of Jeremiah there was great wickedness in Israel. The people had turned from the Lord and his Commandments to them. Israel had allowed Baal to be worshipped in the sacred Temple along with Y-HW-H.
There also existed many false prophets and all preached the same message. That message was that G-d loved his chosen people. G-d would not harm his chosen people no matter how they lived or how much they disobeyed his Commandments. G-d would keep Israel safe, just because he loved them and had a covenant with them.
Then there came on the scene one man named Jeremiah. His message to the people was that if they did not repent and turn from their sins, the Lord G-d would divorce them as husband divorces an harlot. Those who heard Jeremiahs message of repentance, hated him for it. They beat him several times, and then cast him into prison.
When Jeremiah was released from prison, they made jokes at him saying, "Tell us another prophecy Jeremiah?" But the Word of the Lord burned in the bones of Jeremiah and he could not be silent.
Jeremiah said to Israel, you must repent of your sins, lest G-d will punish you and destroy Israel! He said that these many prophets are telling you what you want to hear. They say that G-d will not allow the destruction of Israel because they are his chosen people, no matter how much they turn from him. These false prophets speak for themselves, but I speak in the Name of the Lord!
Does all of this sound familiar in the present day in which we live? Are we not living in a day of Apostacy like was in the day of Jeremiah? Are there not countless false prophets which tell you to live anyway that you wish? And that G-d will not destroy you because he has a covenant with you?
At the marriage supper of the Lamb, those who are with out a marriage garment of white, will be thrown out of the supper, into outer darkness. So said Jesus Christ. This means that under the New Covenant, those who accept the Blood of Jesus over their sins, will be required to also keep the Commandments of G-d and thus have a white robe. They have lived a moral life and will enherit eternal life. Those who have believed on Jesus name and lived like the world, will receive everlasting damnation.
May this message reach the eyes of someone who needs to read it. Lord give me the courage in this dark day to preach the message as Jeremiah preached it. The true message of Salvation.
"He that hath my Commandments, and keepeth them, he it is, that loveth me."
"And he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and manifest myself in him"(Jesus Christ)
(John 14:21)
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Please consider that the point of the Jeremiah story is that the message of redemption through simple "belief in Jesus" is simply an example of the false prophesy against which Jeremiah was warning the Israelites.
Jeremiah was preaching that the traditional Torah based outlook --which stressed absolute accountability not only for "bad choices" but also for any behavior contrary to biblical (i.e. Pentateuchal) law -- was not compatible with excessive tolerance of misbehavior.
In other words, notwithstanding what some "prophets" would have folks believe, you don't get any kind of back door absolution through confession of sin, belief in a savior, repeating certain number of hail mary's etc.
God is only interested in your actions and is quite insistent that your actions be in accord with the delivered Word.
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Please consider that the point of the Jeremiah story is that the message of redemption through simple "belief in Jesus" is simply an example of the false prophesy against which Jeremiah was warning the Israelites.
Redemption is through "simple" belief. It is not by something I do "do" or "don't" do, but through that simple act of belief, faith, in Christ. If I could get into heaven based on my works (something I do that is "good") or by altering my behavior, changing from bad to good (to stop doing something that is "bad") then JESUS DID NOT NEED TO DIE FOR ME. You see brother, I am not saved by my good works, I am not saved because I not longer sin, I am saved by grace, through faith in JESUS. I thank GOD and JESUS that I don't have to depend on my self for salvation. I thank JESUS everyday for paying the price for my soul.
I do agree that GOD is interested in our actions, but like I already said, I thank him that I don't have to depend on them to get me into heaven. The price my Savior paid, he paid in full.
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JESUS DID NOT NEED TO DIE FOR ME...
Precisely.
God announces his abhorrence of child sacrifice on numerous occasions in the Bible, starting with the incident at Mount Moriah (Abraham and Isaac) and admonishment "not to deliver up your children to Molech" (a pagan god who was thought to desire burning of children as a sacrifice.)
How then could anyone suppose that our God would --for reasons which have never been clear to me-- be so limited in formulating a plan for redemption of mankind which had to employ sacrifice of his own child as a necessary element?
God is infinite. God created the entire world in 6 days. God created Adam and Eve from mere dust.
God could, if he chose, create one more son, or a billion more sons --with or without the assistance of a human virgin.
To say, as in John 3:16, that God so loved the world that he gave his "only" son for man's sin is little more than a cruel joke. An infinite being giving up one human son is roughly comparable to a human giving up a few flakes of dandruff. He might as well have given us a handful of magic beans and simply decreed that mankind should sin no more -- and no extra charge for all man's sinning up to that point.
Either way -- whether He chose the only begotten son approach or the magic bean approach -- there has been no noticable shortage of sin since the time of Christ and the victims of sinful behavior prior to Christ weren't around to know how much better off they were.
Obviously, even if one accepts the premise that God would going through this cruxifition exercise to redeem mankind for its sins, then one must also accept that God's ultimate motive is to influence man to refrain from sin AND to encourage the performance of good deeds and kindness here on earth. The concept that belief in Christ trumps a lifetime of bad deeds is an after the fact invention of the scribes who wrote the New Testament some 50 to 70 years after Christs death.
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I disagree, it is very simple, faith in Christ is all I need.
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Faith and not works is what saves. I agree with this completely. Anything that deviates from this central truth is false teaching from the Great Liar and its propose is to lead the masses down the wide road to damnation.
An yet, we know the demons in hell believe and tremble - so just believing is not enough - there must be the surrendering to Christ as Lord, as well; and as a result good works naturally follow. I think, possibly, the degree of our good works may determine the degree of reward.
As for the crucifixion/redemption issue - Look to Isaiah. He explains it very well as dose David in the Psalms. Other Prophets speak to it as well, but when it comes to explaining the how and why, I don't think God gave us a better Prophet than Isaiah. I also like Daniel; but one needs to understand what the Rock and who the Bolder and Corner Stone are/is to understand what he is saying. Isaiah also uses this prophetic symbolism - Behold, I lay in Zion a Stone for a foundation. A Tried Stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation. . .Your covenant with death will be annulled; and your agreement with Sheol will not stand. . .
As for God's abhorrence to child sacrifice - Might that not have something to do with the fact it was to false gods - even to demons for evil?
The crucifixion, by contrast, was God Himself, paying the debt of humanity so that our convenient with death might be annulled and our agreement with Sheol broken.
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All this posturing aside, have we gotten a "wee bit" off topic here?
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Jeremiah is a bullfrog.
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Sure it's off Topic. That happens a lot.
And Jeremiah Was a bullfrog - he was a good friend of mine.
Jeremiah was also a Prophet of the Holy God of Israel; who was quoted in this thread; b/c ALA quotes him on the web site; and someone wanted to debate the meaning of the quote; and so it goes.
I feel we can trust Paige to get us back on topic soon as she gets a chance.
Meanwhile, I am enjoying the turn this took.
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All this posturing aside, have we gotten a "wee bit" off topic here?
Not really. Craig thinks he can save the souls of teens. Just trying to help him see that he can't.
Jeramiah is a bullfrog...NO...Jeremiah was a bullfrog. :grin:
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there must be the surrendering to Christ as Lord, as well; and as a result good works naturally follow.
We are not saved by good works. We are saved by faith in Christ. We are saved by what he did not what we do. We are saved FOR good works. Now if someone is not displaying good works...then maybe they never have been saved.
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We are saved by faith in Christ.
Says who? Not everyone...most of the world, actually...does not believe this.
I follow this thread because I'm interested in the good vibes from Paige's story. Sorry that I have to wade through all this crap telling me what *I* need to do, etc. I'm very glad I'm not incarcerated in a TBS with no recourse (such as a delete key) to block out that which I do not believe.
Craig, I wish you'd re-title your rants so I could skip them. You are really offensive, and in the wrong place to prosetelize. This thread has to do with Amanda and her progress at home.
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Hey, back to the original story--how was Amanda extradited and who got her out? Obviously her MOm wanted to keep her there.
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` Not everyone...most of the world, actually...does not believe this.`
This is why the road to damnation is so wide.
Very little, if any of this debate is Craig. In fact it got started by a poster rebuking Craig; tho it may be a mistake to assume any post on this thread is his. If you want to avoid any and all religious thought you should probably avoid any thread that invloves ALA.
'Hey, back to the original story--how was Amanda extradited and who got her out? Obviously her MOm wanted to keep her there. '
Why do you think so? Did you miss this post?
`Thank you for your thoughts. Yes, it is of the upmost importance for all involved to heal and I feel that a mutual agreement is on the horizon.
Amanda will have many options as far as her schooling goes but at least now she is guaranteed and education.
Counseling will start soon to help all who wish to participate to bring the entire family back together again and with God's help all will heal and have wonderful lives.
May God bless you for your thoughts and prayers.`
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Amanda is doing well. Can't go into any details yet as to the why's and hows. We did meet with a legal team and got confirmation that we were completely within the law and that Amanda is safe and cannot be taken back. No one has heard anything from her parents at this time. I believe they are still on a family vacation. Though her parents do know where she is in accordance with the law. I am hoping that this will all be resolved without going to court and making a media mess out of this but you never know what is going to happen. I suppose at some point in time someone will hear from the parents.
She is doing well in school. We are arranging for some tests to see exactly where she is as far as her education goes and then we will decide on the best course of action for her to take. But for now she is content and happy to be in school and able to see her brother daily.
It is wonderful to see them together. They laugh and giggle like little kids and truly enjoy being around each other.
It is a shame that this situation came about the way it did. I feel very strongly that if they had let Amanda and her brother see each other regularly this may never have happened but it did so we are making the best of the situation and enjoying having her home.
She is a very bright, beautiful and talented young woman. Her artistic abilities have never been developed but will be now. She is extremely talented with drawing skills and design skills.
I am going to teach her how to work with stained glass and how to work with low fire clay. Now that she is home I can start my art business back up and she can work with me. The Galleries that have carried my art in the past must think I dropped off of the face of the earth.
In the past her brother has worked with me on designing and creating pieces, now we can do this all together.
Again thank you to everyone who has been following and supporting us in this difficult time.
Let me assure you Amanda is doing well and has a bright future in front of her. The details of the past few weeks will have to remain unwritten for now but at some time will be released.
However you may want to check some of the statutes of the state of Utah. They are very interesting when it comes to this subject.
I will dig them out and post the statute numbers so you can find them if you are interested.
We are looking forward to having a fun filled weekend. I will post again soon.
Best wishes to all.
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God love you BOTH! (And I know He does!)
I believe that this shows the 'real' interest that the parents have in Amanda:
"No one has heard anything from her parents at this time. I believe they are still on a family vacation."
Yet, Craig and those at ALA would try to lead the world to believe that she had the most wonderful and loving parents.
Honestly: If it wasn't for places like ALA who are so very willing to take a child from their family home - for a PRICE, of course - I do believe that many family problems could be resolved and TRUST could remain intact. Unfortunately, there are facilities who only care about the $$$ and because of thei "Hell and be damned" attitudes they REALLY don't care if a family EVER comes back together.
I'm sure that Hell is going to be full of those who DESTROYED FAMILIES for a PRICE!
I believe the operators of these types of facilities are on the same level as Judas Iscariot: I believe they would betray their own mothers if the price was right.
God be with you, Amanda and Paige. (And I know He is and will be.)
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Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him. Psalm 68:4 KJV
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. John 5:43 KJV
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12 KJV
We have a set of encyclopedias that we purchased over 20 years ago. When told that there was no letter "J" prior to the 16th century, we started wondering if was true and we went to that set of encyclopedias and this is what we discovered:
"J the 10th letter of the English alphabet. It originated in the ancient Semitic consonant "yod". Yod became the Greek vowel "iota" or "I". When the Romans adopted the alphabet, their letter I kept the Greek vowel sounds and in addition represented the consonant Y in early latin. Later, in England, the letter I was given the additional sound of J. Coming most often at the beginning of a word, where the letter most commonly extended below the line, the J sound became identified with the lengthened form of I. It was not until about the 16th century, however, that J was established as a separate letter.
In English words J has only one sound, as in "jelly." In words adopted from other languages it may be pronounced as ZH, as in "jabot."
Could our Savior's name REALLY be "Jesus"? Could the name "Jehovah" REALLY be correct? Is the name found in Psalms, "Jah" really the TRUE name?
Of course not. And yet, Scripture warns "there is NONE OTHER name under heaven given among men, whereby we MUST be saved."
Scripture gives us this INVALUABLE clue as to our Savior's REAL name, for our Savior said, "I am come in my Father's name."
Psalm 68:4 tells us Our Heavenly Father's name - except for the fact that the letter "J" didn't exist when th is scripture was written: "Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him."
It is really quite easy to know God's REAL name. Most everybody has said praise in His real name and they don't even know it.
Anybody here ever said, "HalleluYAH?" (I understand that you don't see it spelled that way, but I'm wanting you to HEAR what you are saying so that you will KNOW - without ANY doubt that HIS NAME IS "YAH". HalleluYAH!!! Just as YAH says in Scripture many times to his chosen people, "HEAR, O Israel", we MUST do the SAME if we are to be saved.)
What is the name of our Savior - since we now KNOW that it is NOT "Jesus" - that it CAN'T be "Jesus"?
Since our Savior came in His Father's name, we know that it will contain His Father's name - YAH -within His own name.
Actually, our Savior's name is found in the book of Genesis, for the first time in Genesis 49:18. It IS the name of Salvation.
If you will look in a Strong's concordance under the Hebrew section, #03444, you will find our Savior's REAL name. It is "Yahshua." (pronounced YAH-shoo-ah).
As you can see, our Savior did come in His Father's name, just as He said He did.
You now know the TRUTH. What are you going to do about it? Scripture warns us:
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we MUST be saved."
I KNOW His name. I PROCLAIM His name. I am SAVED in His name. I have received SALVATION in His name. For ALL OF THAT TRUTH, I MUST SAY, "HalleluYAH"!!!
When Scripture speaks of "The Word" now you REALLY know what it is. (By the way, "Yah" means EVERLASTING. "Yahshua" means EVERLASTING SALVATION. "HalleluYAH" (by HEARING) is a person proclaiming, "I have the Everlasting Bread of The Everlasting." What is that WONDROUS BREAD FROM HEAVEN - THAT MOST PERFECT MANNA? We all know that it is our SAVIOR - it is YAHSHUA. It is EVERLASTING SALVATION. That is why we are told to EAT of THAT BREAD. Isn't that BEAUTIFUL? HALLELUYAH!!!
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Church is gay.
Porn is better.
Back on topic.
Amanda is 17 right? Depending on the state in which you live she would be considered old enough to decide where she wants to live (even on her own). Although I do not know about Utah, that place is just one big fucking church.
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Well Paige - I am floored.
I thought you guys must've talked her family into letting her stay with you - but you say you have not yet herd from her parents?? Sounds like you got a visit arranged and yanked her. And you are confident this is legal?
It sounds like you've set the stage for a huge bru ha ha in the courts; but I hope not. It would be a terrible thing to put her or any kid threw.
And with her already 17 - what's the point? Please do try and not let this cause a massive family split.
I do wish you ALL well - Really.
The art sounds great. If she has a gift for art you might suggest she consider a career in graphic art - a good graphic artist can do very well. I wish my two kids were self disciplined enough to pursue the field. Both are very gifted but unmotivated. My daughter is tattooing on the side. . . Amazing stuff. Never saw anyone achieve the kind of depth and detail she does in a tattoo.
As I said, I am floored. . . Concerned, but wishing you well.
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On 2004-08-16 16:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sometimes Paige, God will give you what you want, just to show you that your will is not what is best. However, just because you got what you think you wanted, don't deceive yourself into thinking that this was the Lord's will.
In spite of the manipulation and continued lies, the Lord will work this situation out to His glory, in spite of the defiance displayed by you and other family members towards the girl's parents. This is apparent from your writings.
God has allowed this for a reason. nfortunately, the girl will probably have a lot of hard lessons to learn. You have greatly contributed to the grief and pain she will no doubt experience in the years to come.
You have taught her through this that it is ok to defy the authority over you, even though that is in direct contradiction to what the Bible teaches us.
If you and the other family members involved truly loved the girl, as you claim you all do, you all would have done the right thing and supported the parents, not started smear campaign that has involved the unsaved.
The Lord is not mocked. He will reward you appropriately for your actions in this matter. The Lord tells us to "Honor your parents". By your actions and your writings, you have told the world via the internet, that God's commands do not matter to you and the other family members. What a horrible legacy to leave behind.
As far as her not attending public school, how awesome that her parents loved her enough to be willing to make the necessary sacrafices to allow the mom to home school the girl.
How awesome that the mom loves the girl enough to be willing to spend so much time with her. In this day and age where parents count down the days until school starts in the fall, the girl's mom chose to spend the time with her.
The twisting and perverting of the truth in this matter is beyond comprehension. Is this what you are teaching the girl's brother? To bad mouth those who do not agree with you? To be rebellious to authority? The Lord is not pleased with a rebellious heart.
This whole drama you have created is like the Emporers New Clothes. All were fooled, except for one person who stood up and told the truth. "
How true, how true, how true.
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It was posted:
"The Lord is not pleased with a rebellious heart."
NOT TRUE AS STATED - The TRUTH HAS BEEN TWISTED - AGAIN!!!
SCRIPTURE SAYS - AND THE LORD CHANGES NOT - WHAT WAS GOOD IN HIS EYES YESTERDAY IS GOOD TODAY -
THUS SAYETH THE LORD:
Only rebel not ye against the LORD, neither fear ye the people of the land; for they are bread for us: their defence is departed from them, and the LORD is with us: fear them not. Numbers 14:9
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Hebrews 13:17
Paige PLAINLY said that she has acted within the law. Since that is the case, she has obeyed those who have rule over us in this country. She has NOT rebelled against The Lord - as already PROVEN THROUGH SCRIPTURE in past posts.
No wonder Scripture warns us:
"Take heed that no MAN deceive you."
Whomever is making these false SCRIPTURAL claims -and the ignorant fool who is agreeing with them -
WOE BE TO YOU BOTH! You are headed straight for HELL for misrepresenting God's Word in what clearly appears to be an unHoly attempt to DECEIVE people!
From where I'm sitting: If the person making those FALSE accusations against Paige have anything to do with Abundant Life Academy, then Amanda was removed NONE TO SOON! (Good thing Paige acted when she did!)
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I just love all you anonymous assholes hiding behind your printed pages in a book instead of bothering to check out what might really be happening to those kids in those places.
Just because they're in a christian place does not mean they're safe. Just because they say they are chrsitian doesn't mean they ARE, and even if they are they can still be completely evil and corrupted.
If your god gives a damn I'm all ears, but I haven't heard shit. The only ones talking are all of you, and I wish you'd shut up.
You could find out the truth, yet chose not to even allow the possibility that the bad things being said could be true, so you would rather these places be kept isolated, secretive, and listen to them when they say what you want to hear, just like other program parents.
You make me sick.[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2004-08-20 17:06 ]
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I do understand your feelings for such places but maybe to keep those who support them away from this thread we should focus on the positive and be very happy that Amanda is home. She is truly one of the lucky ones. I do not know that any of these places will ever go away but I feel that the more attention they get and publicity they get showing the true conditions and what they are really like - the harder it will be for them to operate. There will always be parents who should be nuetered and not allowed to have kids but that is a totally different subject.
I am going to relish in the fact that Amanda is home safe - I can get some rest this weekend finally. All who have helped are relieved and happy and she can go on to have a good life.
At least she can take a shower now and have hot water. At dinner last night she said that she had eaten more in the last week since she has been home than she had eaten the whole time she was in Mexico.
She is getting emotionally stronger by the day and is sorry that she cannot help the girls who are still there. Maybe someday she can.
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Chris, isn't it? You write:
You could find out the truth, yet chose not to even allow the possibility that the bad things being said could be true, so you would rather these places be kept isolated, secretive, and listen to them when they say what you want to hear, just like other program parents~
As regards the place involved with this situation; what bad things are you referring too?
I am not aware of anything being alleged. There has been lots of guessing and conjecture, but as far as I know, nothing other than being a teen help program, which is Christian, has been alleged. The crime? Simply being a program; and in some eyes being Christian; or not, according to others.
There is nothing Isolated about ALA. Its in the middle of a town; not out in the jungle or 50 miles back some lonely stretch of road. It is not the kind of program that isolates the kids from everything and everybody. The kids use the phone and the computer and talk to family. You really don't need to be so upset about this.
Paige has said Amanda is fine - happy - and Yes, I know she means b/c she is now with her; but she Hasn't said, the kid looks awful; lost 25 pounds; gained 25 pounds; has broken bones or teeth. No doubt, there will be complaints; but they won't be like that.
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Paige slipped past me -
So - whats with this:
At least she can take a shower now and have hot water. At dinner last night she said that she had eaten more in the last week since she has been home than she had eaten the whole time she was in Mexico
This needs clairifing. Why was she not eating in MX? Did she not like the food, or was their not much of it, or what?
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Wasn't much of it and it was not good.
also no toilet paper, no hot water lots of questionable activity no real education and no communication with the outside world and no she could not call or use email to contact anyone just her parents and whoever her mother decided to send the emails on to and that contact was on a limited basis and rare. She did not receive the emails we sent her through her grandmother like we were told - big surprise.
Get your facts straight this place may not be the worst be it ain't no picnic either. Many of the kids there have become suicidal because they see no hope and there are many problems within the staff. Again that is about all that I am going to say now.
About 2 months ago the place was raided by the Mexican authorities. Many of the "students" didn't have valid visas and were deported. According to the consulate this happens fairly regularly. And Yes they did move the kids as many times as I had reported earlier and they keep the address of the place where they house the kids a secret. Even the consulate had trouble getting the address to do a welfare check. This information came directly from the consulate and once again YES she is in need of counseling do to this horrific experience and will get it from real professional people who have her best interest at heart not how much money they can get from her parents!!!!!!!!!!
If you think this place is so OK I would like to see you stay there for 6 months under the exact same conditions. Want to try it???
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On 2004-08-20 05:38:00, JeffJizz wrote:
Back on topic.
Amanda is 17 right? Depending on the state in which you live she would be considered old enough to decide where she wants to live (even on her own). Although I do not know about Utah, that place is just one big f------ church.
"
Tis true she is 17 and that is a major portion of this situation. At 17 if a child is reported as a missing person they are not high on the priority list. We notified the parents in accordance with the statutes of the state of Utah and the state of Utah was notified.
A detective called and left a message for one of us to call him back. The Great Aunt called him back he was not in at the time so she left a message and he has yet to return her call.
The statutes are very clear that a 17 year old is not considered a runaway and the authorities are to check to see if the child left of her own volition. If so then under the statutes so be it case closed.
Our Legal team has worked very closely with us on this matter and everyone has complied with Utah statutes and Texas statutes.
Her Aunts and Uncles, Granparents and many many people are happy to see her and she feels loved and wanted. I think that this has been the most important thing. She feels loved. She is not as frightened as when she first got home and she is getting emotionally stronger. She has always had a strong faith in God and that has not changed. She believed we would find her and bring her home and she never gave up hope that we would just as we never gave up hope that God would take care of her and direct us to her to bring her home where she belongs. My faith is stronger now than ever before and I thank God daily for her return and for all of the people who have helped. God bless you all.
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All I'm trying to do is understand the realities of the situation. You needn't be quit so defensive.
I know about some of what you've just written; I know some of it is true; but your not telling the whole story; which dose change the picture in significant ways. I'm not calling you a liar. I realize you don't know the whole story and so are only telling what you do know.
The raid and deportation has already been gone over on other links. I feel I understand the situation; how and why it happened. Its not something I see being a problem in the future.
I know a little bit about the problems with staff. Not a lot, but a little. The lack of toilet paper was related to a problem with staff. There was plenty of toilet paper but this person was not bothering to go get it.
Some of what you write I feel is a result of some exaggeration on your part; or rather, just not understanding what is generally meant by a lack of communication with the outside world; or lack of contact with family.
ALA has TV's and telephones and the kids have video games and watch movies. They are not cut off from the outside world. They go into town and shop and attend church and do community service projects. They are not cut off from the community.
They can talk to their family; but, its up to their family who else they can talk to; and that was your problem. If you and her Mom had not been at odds, you would not have had that problem.
My son called me at will; called his Gran Ma; called his sister; called his friends - because I was OK with all that.
As for the food, what he told me was, there was lots of it, and it was good, but very spicy. They had a hard time getting the cooks to make it milder for the unaccustomed American stomachs.
It was probably very different from what Amanda is used to as far as menu and style of preparation; and so I can see how she might not like it and not eat much of it; And So, how she would say, what she said about eating so much more now; but that is not the same thing as not being fed much.
The hot water thing is probably just reality in that part of the world. Have you asked why there was no hot water? Was it talked about or explained?
Life is different south of the border. Its different in Ky and Utah, for that matter. We think nothing of using Lots of water in Ky. I noticed in Utah the situation was very different.
As for the education, they use KeyStone, which is a highly regarded curriculum; and I know when my son needed extra help with some of the math, they got him a tutor and never asked me for an extra dime to cover it.
You mention kids being suicidal. This is serious and not the sort of thing you should be saying without knowing. What makes you say this?
If your going to make a statement like that, you can't just then say, that's all Folks. I'd strongly suggest, if you have any real kowledge of such, you need to be telling those who can help. And if you have no real knowledge, this is a rather serious aligation to make with no basis in fact.
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"The hot water thing is probably just reality in that part of the world. "
Look Karen is trying to make excuses for ALA.
"You mention kids being suicidal. This is serious and not the sort of thing you should be saying without knowing. What makes you say this?
If your going to make a statement like that, you can't just then say, that's all Folks. I'd strongly suggest, if you have any real kowledge of such, you need to be telling those who can help. And if you have no real knowledge, this is a rather serious aligation to make with no basis in fact. "
Karen doesn't your son work for ALA now? Isn't he a paid staff member?
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The lack of toilet paper was related to a problem with staff. There was plenty of toilet paper but this person was not bothering to go get it.
Hey Dumbo, are not all of the problems in these places related to staff? When a child is physically or mentally abused, is it not by staff? Of course it is. So great point you made "there was plenty of toilet paper," but what good is it if the students don't get to use it? I am sure your hero, Mr. Rogers, and your son, an employee, were not having to go with out toilet paper.
Looks like they are into humiliating teens to me.
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Hey is this Karen????
If so - good to hear from you.
Karen your son was there at a different time and things have changed dramatically from when he was there. I will not under any cicumstances divulge most of the information I have on the web and it is going to the proper authorities which you are not a part of. I would suggest you distance yourself from this facility as quickly as possible and I will not argue with you about what has happened to this child there since you were not there and have never been there.
If you do not like what is being said take your toys and go home but do not try to dispute my word or defend the actions of the staff in how they handled these children for you can not. Have we forgotten that Craig himself sent a threatening email to Josue predicting the death of Josue's son if he did not give up the law suit against Craig for basically stealing the $50,000 that was invested into this facility.
Do not try to defend the dealings of this facility. It is a corrupt and dispicable place geared to make money at the cost of God's children.
Tell me what is so Godly about that.
Craig Rogers in my opinion is a crook, a cult leader and is mentally unstable. There are allegations of drug use and drug scams and you haven't heard the beginning of this yet.
I am giving you fair warning now that you get yourself distanced or pay the consequences because Hell hath no Fury like a mother who's child has been subjected to such treatment and even though she is legally not my daughter in my heart she is and always will be and she is my son's sister which means I will protect her as if she were my own.
Now back off and rejoice that Amanda doesn't have any broken bones and that her broken spirit can be healed and that God has seen fit to send her home.
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Hi Paige - yes, its me and its been me for a while.
I am not wanting to argue, either. I have asked for clarification and further explanation and tried to point out how there are two sides to some of what you say.
I know well I am not a proper authority; nor is anyone here on this forum. Also, I am not associated with ALA in any way other than by past experience. That past experience is what I base my opinion on; as well as conversations with other students and parents. I am not calling you a liar. I think I said that already. And if the kids are being mistreated I would not be OK with that. Nothing I have herd from any other family would lead me to think you are on target.
I don't know anything about the people working in MX and corruption is possible. I do know Craig tho, and your wrong about him. He is So not about the money. This I do know. I would suggest, if you have information about wrong doing at ALA, you tell him. If you really want to help correct a situation you feel certain is corrupt; A respectful conversation might go a lot farther a lot faster.
I may back out of the conversation; not b/c you suggest I take my toys and go home; but b/c I realize I have no way to be helpful to anybody in this situation. My actual knowledge is limited.
I have told you I am happy for Amanda and I wish all parties well. I mean it. As this is the situation, I hope it is for the best. I hope you haven't caused a permanent family break. I hope everyone lives happily ever after.
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PS
Craig never sent such a letter to Josue'. I have that from Josue' himself.
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On 2004-08-21 10:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
I would suggest, if you have information about wrong doing at ALA, you tell him. If you really want to help correct a situation you feel certain is corrupt; A respectful conversation might go a lot farther a lot faster.
Or he might just call you names, threaten to call the autorities w/ false accusations against you, threaten to sue you, threaten to sue me for letting you say what you want, threaten to sue my ISP and, failing all that, offer them a bribe to shut down these forums.
But of course, I'm only guessing what would happen. :roll: Step 1. We came to understand that the government is powerless over people's private use of drugs and that the War on Drugs was making the government's life unmanageable.
--Scott Tillinghast
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Karen.....
You are a cunt and I would love nothing more than to see you deep throat a turd.
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troll.
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Dwarf
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At a convention I talked to a staffer who used to work on the therapy side at Three Springs in Huntsville, AL.
She said that they would get kids in as transfers from some of the other BM schools and that she would have to begin treating these transfer kids for trauma for what had happened to them elsewhere.
She said her school had had occasional negative reports out on the net because they would occasionally get a new staffer who would mistakenly think they were a boot camp and say really awful things to the kids and then get promptly fired. She mentioned an incident of getting the supervisor and walking her up the back side of a hill where a staffer was out with the kids, so the supervisor could hear what the staffer was saying but not be seen. Staffer was fired, pronto.
She mentioned regularly telling people, "Don't send your kid to any program out of the country, or in Utah."
That wasn't just to get kids in to fill beds, either. Apparently her school did regularly turn down placements where the parents were freaking over the trivial and really needed at home family therapy.
This is not a push for that school---I think kids should be kept home whenever possible, and that it's possible a lot more often than it's tried---especially when the source of conflict is a stepfamily issue.
My point is that even staffers who work at the less bad programs or even programs that are good on a voluntary basis or for true involuntary commitment needs---those staffers know full well that there are problem schools in the industry that are genuinely traumatizing kids.
This school, being in a third world country, is automatically suspect.
"No hot water" cannot be legitimately shrugged off as "that's just how it is in that part of the world." The fact is, there's no good reason for the kid to *be* in that part of the world. The kid's an American. The kid does not voluntarily agree to be out of the United States and in a third world country instead. There are a bazillion and a half TBS's of every type and description in the United States. It's not as if the US was a dinky little country.
Parents have no right to ship US citizen kids off to someplace out of the country. Move with their kids to another country, where the kid's under 14, sure. Ship the kid out of country, no. That's just not right.
Hot water *is* a legitimate issue, because the kid shouldn't have been shuffled out to a third world country in the first place, and sticking her in a third world country without her being given the opportunity to refuse to go or the opportunity to insist on repatriation from the US consulate, was flat out illegal in the first place.
That the parents didn't have the law enforced against them and neither did the school doesn't make it right. Forcing American teens out of the country is *illegal*.
Craig and ALA are so big on the Bible and Authority? Craig an ALA are a bunch of damned (literally, not profanely) hypocrites---the Bible says that Christians are supposed to obey the laws of the land. When Craig and ALA break the law to take these kids to a third world country and keep them there without them being able to demand repatriation, they're breaking the law. When they turn around and tell these kids to obey legitimate authority, they're just saying the old, "Do as I say and not as I do."
If you're a kid and your mom tells you not to drink, and you go have a beer and don't get caught, you did wrong whether your mom enforces that rule and catches you and punished you or not. You broke the rule, you did wrong.
If you're a mom or a school owner/staffer and your government tells you 14 year olds have the right to refuse to leave the country and the right to be repatriated against their parents' will, and you keep take them out of the country anyway, and you don't give them the opportunity to tell the consular staff they want repatriation, and you don't inform them of their right to request repatriation regardless of what their parents want, then YOU DO WRONG. Regardless of whether you have the ambassador wrapped around your little finger or not.
If you know the ambassador is breaking the law by not repatriating them, and they request repatriation and *YOU* don't send them home, then just like that teenager drinking a beer when mom said don't drink *YOU DO WRONG*.
You're not obeying the laws of the land, and in doing so you're telling the kids that as long as you're powerful enough or sneaky enough to get away with rebelling against authority, rebelling against legitimate authority is A-OK.
You're demonstrating to the kids that breaking the rules is only wrong if you get caught.
Do as I say, not as I do.
Damned (literally) hypocrites.
At least, according to the Christian religion you are.
If you're not worried enough about that to quit doing it, then deep down, you aren't really Christians. You're just non-believers going through the motions, and lying to yourself that you really believe because it makes you feel holier than everybody else.
But you aren't. Scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites!
Timoclea
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Timoclea
Can you give the statue that says what all you say here? About the legalities, I mean. Where can a person find that in print? Nothing in the starte department's statement, on out of country programs, mentions any of this, except it dose say: "In extreme emergency situations, they may also request repatriation assistance from the U.S. Government without parental consent."
I'll post it entire at the end here.
Ginger
said *respectful* conversation might go farther, faster. I Know if kids are being mistreated Craig is unaware of it. I Know he would never tolerate that. However, nobody is able to listen well when being called names or falsely accused now, are they?
So much that takes place on Fornits seriously degrades its quality and usefulness.
Speaking of which. . .
Jeffery
Not that you deserve notice, but I do wonder, did I really say something to upset you that much; or did Ginger call in the special forces to scare away the Christians?
http://travel.state.gov/behavior_modification.html (http://travel.state.gov/behavior_modification.html)
U.S. Department of State
Washington, D.C.
FACT SHEET
BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION FACILITIES
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In almost every region of the world, there are facilities for the treatment of minor children with drug/alcohol and/or discipline problems. These private and state-owned overseas treatment centers can often be characterized as ?Behavior Modification Facilities.? Parents/guardians enroll their minor children in these facilities in the hope they will improve their problematic behavior.
Some facilities request parents/guardians to sign a contract for their minor child?s treatment authorizing its staff to act as their agents. These contracts purport to give staff very broad authority to take any actions deemed necessary, in the staff?s judgment, for the health, welfare and progress in the child?s program. The facilities can be located in relatively remote areas, restrict the minor child?s contact with the outside world, and employ a system of graduated levels of earned privileges and punishments to stimulate behavior change. The minor child?s communication privileges may also be limited.
The Department of State has no authority to regulate these entities, whether they are private or state-owned, and does not maintain information about their corporate or legal structures or their relationships to each other or to organizations in the United States. The host country where the facility is located is solely responsible for compliance with any local safety, health, sanitation, and educational laws and regulations, including all licensing requirements of the staff in that country. These standards may not be strictly enforced or meet the standards of similar facilities in the United States. The Department of State has, at various times, received complaints about nutrition, housing, education, health issues, and methods of punishment used at some facilities.
Prior to enrolling their minor children in such overseas ?Behavior Modification Facilities,? the Department of State strongly recommends parents/guardians visit the facility and thoroughly inform themselves about both the facility and the host country?s rules governing it and its employees. The Department of State also encourages parents/guardians and facility administrators to ensure that all U.S. citizen enrollees are registered with the nearest U.S. Embassy/Consulate in case emergency consular services are needed.
U.S. consular officials are not qualified to determine whether the programs offered by the facilities are of therapeutic benefit to the enrollees. When aware of such facilities, U.S. consular officials conduct periodic facility visits, sometimes accompanied by host country officials, to monitor the general welfare of the U.S. citizen enrollees. Inquiries into the welfare and whereabouts of U.S. citizen enrollees may be initiated by contacting the closest U.S. Embassy/Consulate in the host country or the Department of State?s Overseas Citizens Services (OCS) office at the below telephone number. Also, parents may contact the closest U.S. Embassy/Consulate in the host country to inquire about the facility or speak to the Department of State?s Bureau of Consular Affairs? OCS Specialist for that country (Tel.: 202-647-5226 or, for after hours emergencies, 202-647-5225).
The Federal Privacy Act protects U.S. citizens, including minor children, from the unauthorized disclosure of information that the U.S. Government has collected and maintained about them unless the U.S. citizen has consented in writing to the release of the information or one of the Privacy Act?s ?conditions of disclosure? permits the U.S. Government to release the otherwise protected information.
While parents/guardians may at times act in loco parentis for their minor children and obtain information that is otherwise protected by the Privacy Act, it must also be noted that minor children?s explicit wishes must be respected. Thus, a U.S. consular officer who has been advised by a minor child that s/he does not want any information released to an inquiring parent/guardian should honor those wishes absent the presence of circumstances affecting the health or safety of the minor child (i.e., one of the ?conditions of disclosure?). Parents/guardians should be aware that U.S. citizens 14 years of age and older have the right to apply for a passport without their parents?/guardian?s permission. In extreme emergency situations, they may also request repatriation assistance from the U.S. Government without parental consent.
January 2004
Return to Consular
http://travel.state.gov/behavior_modification.html (http://travel.state.gov/behavior_modification.html)
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Timoclea, I agree with you 99%...
On 2004-08-21 13:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
You're demonstrating to the kids that breaking the rules is only wrong if you get caught.
No, it's not about getting caught or not. God knows, if you'll pardon the expression, that these folks are well vindicated by much of officialdome. Hell, how can they be wrong when the career Büsh supporting Ambassador to Italy used to run a program just like these, right? Why, drugs-r-bad, m'khay? Cops know what they're doing, judges order juveniles to these places, CYS checks on them from time to time and, except for the occasional civil suit or Program closing, all of these damned professionals give them a free pass.
It's not like they really keep much secret. The evidence isn't really that hard to get, just that the people who should be looking for it really don't think it's a priority.
No, it's not about avoiding getting caught that makes the difference between right and wrong under this dychotomy. It's about the end justifying the means. They seem to believe, quite litterally, that they have been instructed by God himself to do these horrible things to other people's children in order to save their eternal souls.
Just like Jim Jones (who started out trying to rehabilitate street junkies)
Just like Chuck Dederich, founder of Synanon "Church".
Just like Hitler, who sold the people (and, likely, himself) on the idea that he was the savior or the ancient Germanic tribes.
Just like Stalin and Castro and every other fanatic idealog down through the ages.
You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.
--Albert Einstein
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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On 2004-08-21 13:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Timoclea
Can you give the statue that says what all you say here? About the legalities, I mean.
Try here:
Since the late 1970's, we have been contacted in the cases of approximately 16,000 children who were either abducted from the United States or prevented from returning to the U.S. by one of their parents. This part of the website discusses what the Department of State can and cannot do to help you. In addition, because we are only part of the network of resources available to you, we mention other avenues to pursue when your child has been abducted across international borders. For example, you may wish to contact the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC)
http://travel.state.gov/family/abduction.html (http://travel.state.gov/family/abduction.html)
Ginger
However, nobody is able to listen well when being called names or falsely accused now, are they?
Yes, it does suck when people do that. But I think I've learned to manage ok.
Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself - that is my doctrine.
--Thomas Paine
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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Its interesting Ginger, and may be useful is some cases; but it in no way applies to this situation; or any situation were the custodial parent has placed a child.
If there are such laws, as mentioned; I would like to know about them. Lots of people would.
I have herd talk about trying to pass such laws; but not that there are any.
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*sigh*
And it was such a beautiful rant, too.
Unlike Craig, I admit when I'm wrong, and not being a lawyer, I misremembered the law.
*wipes egg from face*
I firmly believe that removing US citizens from the US against their will, without their parents' direct presence at the destination with the kids, is wrong, evil, immoral, sinful, and everything horrible except fattening.
However, I can't prove it on those particular grounds.
I screwed up, I misremembered, ya got me.
But what they're doing is still wrong.
Timoclea
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Why Mexico, again? Karen? Anybody? What's the purpose, again, of shipping these kids outside the U.S.?
Never let your sense of
morals get in the way of
doing what's right
--Isaac Asimov
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Did anybody GET THIS as set forth by the U.S. Dept. of State:
"While parents/guardians may at times act in loco parentis for their minor children and obtain information that is otherwise protected by the Privacy Act, it must also be noted that minor children?s explicit wishes must be respected...."
"Parents/guardians should be aware that U.S. citizens 14 years of age and older have the right to apply for a passport without their parents?/guardian?s permission...."
If a child who is at least 14 years of age has the RIGHT to apply for a passport WITHOUT their parents'/guardians' permission - the ALTERNATIVE to that FACT would be that the child would have an EQUAL RIGHT to REFUSE TO APPLY.
I don't have the law in front of me, but as of February 2004, EVERY CHILD MUST APPEAR IN PERSON WHEN A PASSPORT IS APPLIED FOR. Prior to February 2004, only those children 14 years old and up had to appear in person.
I want to know how many kids over 14 years of age APPEARED IN PERSON when their passport was applied for. I want to know if ANY passports are being issued without that requirement being fulfilled. I want to know if our NATIONAL SECURITY is being jeopardized by passport laws being ignored/circumvented.
Kids over 14 years of age who are being forced to get a passport AGAINST THEIR WILL need to be told to RAISE HELL and let it be known that they DO NOT WANT A PASSPORT ISSUED TO THEM. THEN THEY NEED TO DEMAND TO SEE A LAWYER AND THEY NEED TO FILE A COMPLAINT WITH FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT.
I'll guarantee you that most kids who KNOW that a passport has been issued won't wait around for "teen escorts" to show up and haul them out of the country against their will; and they won't buy the lies their parents will tell them to get them on a plane so that they can be flown out of the country.
The issuance of passports and visas to teens 14-18 years of age and whether they are being LAWFULLY issued DEFINITELY needs to be looked into.
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so what do we do about this?????
This is a multi billion dollar industry that seems to have no regulations. How is that?
Child care facilities have regulations. This is a form of child care, I don't get it. Is it because they are out of the country that there are no regulations? But the ones in the country have serious problems also I do not understand why there seem to be no regulations. Can someone please explain this to me.
By the way Amanda went to the movie tonight with some old friends of hers and had a great time.
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Because there's been a perception since around the Nixon era of teenagers as a distinct criminal class.
"The Program" and two years will get you a vastly improved kid in *EXACTLY* the same way that "The Program" and four bucks will get you a cup of espresso at Starbucks.
Timoclea
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On 2004-08-21 20:27:00, Antigen wrote:
"Why Mexico, again? Karen? Anybody? What's the purpose, again, of shipping these kids outside the U.S.?
<
In our case, Ginger, the reason for Mexico was pure and simple....Mexico was the cheapest WWASPS facility available. Less per day, driveable instead of airline tickets. I think it would have been harder for the stepfather to convince the mother to send our grandaughter to Australia or Brazil or Poland. Mexico seemed so close. AND IT WAS CHEAPER!!! This guy is disabled and spends all his time on the laptop computer we bought for him, resting his bad back in his recliner, figuring out the cheapeast way to do everything, including imprisoning his pesky new stepdaughter and removing her from his life. He is CHEAP. One small speck of revenge for me is that WWASPS screwed him by not divulging the true extent of costs.
On the passport issue, Mexico does not need a US passport to enter. The stepfather did go privately to San Francisco (I don't know where he went) to get the paperwork into place prior to his transport of this child. She did have to personally sign the visa, but she was only given a single page and told it was a form for entering the "boarding school", not a US travel document.
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Timoclea,
Just want to be clear; I wasn't throwing egg at you. I would really be interested in laws such as you talked about; So would many others. You (I believe) got conversations on *possible* laws mixed up with conversations about existing laws.
On the Pass Port thing; I don't think there is anyway to get a pass port with out having a picture made. So, no way to do it covertly. As was pointed out, you don't always need a pass port to travel across international borders.
When I sent my son to Dundee, I sent his birth certificate and a copy of his drivers license. That was all they needed.
Ginger,
you ask why Mx? As I recall, This came up do to Josue's interest in working with ALA. I remember a trip they took to look around; Their was much talk about how nice the little town was; how it was an American retirement community; An arts and crafts center; how opportunities for community service were abundant; the property was affordable and beautiful And it seemed like an idea place. Its true I was never able to go. I would love to, bt its just not so easy for me to travel. My son did spend the Summer there and he loved it. He was glad to get home; but he has often said he misses Mexico and would like to go back. I do believe if it weren't for a certain girl here, he'd still be in Mexico.
I have no wish to make light of Paige's concerns or to trivialize Amanda's feelings. I know ALA in MX has had some growing pains and staff problems. I don't feel it is anything that isn't correctable; that isn't being corrected.
Its true I don't know the people working in MX - but I do know the Roger's family; and I am well acquainted with their selflessness an generosity and compassion. I know they would never tolerate mistreatment or neglect in their program; And if its taking place; I know they would want to know about it. But surely you can understand, when the complaint takes place on a forum, where people are called cunts and told to eat shit, they would tend to discount it. The only reason I don't, is b/c I have been hanging around long enough to know their is intelligence and witt and insight to be found among the refuse.
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Karen? I didn't take it as anyone else throwing egg. I'm a professional writer, and even though I write fiction, I try very hard to get my facts straight.
It was a harsh rant, for me, about some actions I think are wrong. If I really lay into someone like that, I usually like to make sure I'm right, first.
Look, I have no problem with kids who want to go to a boarding school having a trip to a foreign country and an experience of a foreign culture. I have no problem with consenting adults who are into kink and leather doing their thing. There are things that are perfectly okay when consensual that are intolerable and reprehensible when done against someone's will.
When someone holds a set of positions that trivializes consent as basically beneath consideration, it concerns me.
My view of infancy, childhood, adolescence, and adulthood is that it's a spectrum across which human beings normally gain an increasing amount of say in the decisions in their lives. Starting with things like, "milk or juice" or "apple or banana" and moving to which of your clothes you wear, to which clothes you buy (within limits), to who you date, to what extracurricular activities you do, to what electives you study in addition to your core curriculum, to where you go on a date (within limits).
The upside of having that gradually increasing choice and responsibility be informally socially mandated is that kids mature at different rates.
The downside is that if a child's parents aren't divorced and both living, a fifteen year old has as much legal right to make basic choices for himself as a two year old. Namely, none.
My concern with Craig is that his postings (or the anonymous ones I believe to be his) demonstrate a view of parental authority in complete accord with treating a fifteen year old like a two year old who can do more chores. I don't get any sense, from his writings, of a teenager as a *person* with rights to go with his responsibilities, rights the parents have a *moral* obligation to respect.
I once knew a doctor's wife who wouldn't pay for her son to have guitar lessons. He wanted to be a rock musician when he grew up, she refused the lessons because she, "didn't want that life for him." And then she wondered why the kid was hostile and unmanageable---including making a $500 dent in the car by slamming his skateboard into it.
It's not about the car lessons. It's about the parent feeling *entitled* to make deliberate choices to *foreclose* life career options her son would have available to choose from as an adult because *she* was afraid he would choose a particular career and didn't approve of it.
It's like refusing permission for a daughter who wants to be an engineer to take advanced math classes in high school because you think said career would be "unladylike."
I don't see an awareness and acceptance from Craig of basic, fundamental social norms of the limits of parental authority over a high school student versus parental authority over a preschool student.
Parents have a responsibility not to make choice-foreclosing decisions for their children as a way of controlling those children long past their date of majority. Deliberate choice-foreclosing decisions made for the purpose of controlling children after they're grown are evil.
They're one of a class of actions on the part of parents or adults that materially interferes with the ordinary course of maturation of a human being from childhood to adulthood. When you don't let your teen make and live with the *natural* (not imposed by you) consequences of age-appropriate decisions, it's normal and right for the rest of society to vehemently disapprove of your behavior.
One of the things I think is extremely unhealthy about the whole teen BM industry is that they try to keep the teens from going through the perfectly normal and healthy process of separating from their parents and making more and more of their decisions for themselves---and living with the *natural* consequences of same, rather than artificial ones.
Teens should have curfews and get in trouble if they break them. Teens should have dress codes to dress within respectable society's social norms for appropriateness for events and activities. Teens should be expected to go to class and do their schoolwork. Teens should be expected to follow the rules of common courtesy. Teens should be expected to avoid violence and avoid illicit drugs. Teens should be expected to avoid sexual intimacy.
Teens should be expected to slip up and break these rules and push the envelope just because they're teens, and consequences for infractions should be reasonable and proportional.
Teens should have wide lattitude to go places as long as they're back by curfew. Teens should have wide lattitude within their dress code for personal choice of attire. Teens should be able to choose assignment subjects and electives and activities in school in line with personal and career interests. Teens should be able to date the person of their choice provided he/she is within one or two years of their age. Teens should be able to pick their own friends so long as those friends aren't engaged in ongoing criminal activity (aside from a rare screwup), treat the parents with common courtesy most of the time, and aren't doing things like free-soloing cliffs drunk or having wild orgies. Teens should be able to read anything they want, no matter how objectionable. Teens should be able to work at any legal job they can get and use the money as they please. Teens should be able to go to the prom. Teens should not be forced to dress conspicuously even if their parents subculture has a distinct mode of dress. Teens should have freedom of religion. Teens should have the right, if they are required to attend religious services, to quietly and respectfully not participate and to abstain from preparing religious lessons or professing belief. Teens should have the right to form and express preferences on the arts, music, literature, religion, and politics that differ from those of their parents.
Those are the basic social norms of our society.
Nobody wants to enshrine it in law and have the child police vetting how you dress your kid *BUT* society basically disapproves of parents who don't accord their teens this basic scope for personal individual choice.
Teens making these personal choices is how teens turn into healthy adults. It's entirely normal for parents to be somewhat estranged from their teens along the way in the growing up process, and for the parent/child relationships to mend in good time once the grown child is secure in his identity as an adult member of society.
My huge concern with the BM industry is that they seem to be trying to stop this essential, healthy process in its tracks and make these young people into psychologically locked-in-place infantilized sheep *permanently* under their parents thumb, even as full adults, rather than independent adults with individual free choice.
I know some cultures have historically given parents tremendous control over the behavior and choices of their grown children. The difference between that and this is that *these* parents using the BM industry to preemptively acquire controls over their grown children are NOT checked and balanced by the safeguards of having *their* behavior substantially controlled by *their* parents---who have a great deal more experience of life than the parents of the teens.
I have seen *nothing* from Craig that even hints at a recognition and acceptance of normal social limits on the decisions and choices he and the parents who are his customers can and should make for teens of various ages.
There are limits. I don't think this industry has a very good sense of those limits.
Timoclea
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The indsutry is made by control freaks, for control freaks. FUBU BM.
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OK.
We have a lot of common ground. Your paragraph on what kids ought to be allowed to do - I agree - But what about the various "aside froms" you mention?
What about the kid whoz natural consequences are getting to be very costly in terms of emotional pain, stress, health, loss of future potentional ; and the over played, but still, definite increased risk of death? Have you any idea how terrifying this is? Ever had that cold hand clutch your heart?
When you know your kid needs more help than the family can provide; When all else has proven futile; What then?
Even if, all that is accomplished by a good program, is keeping them safe and sober, until they have a chance to mature out of the behavior - Hey, thats something. Its better than the alternatives.
As for the 'bad' programs - Abuse and neglect are illegal. Fraud is illegal. Seems like what we need is a fast track method of getting these places investigated and perps prosecuted; but what they are doing is already a criminal act.
As for your opinion on Craig; OK, you are entitled to an opinion and you will naturally base it on what you've seen for yourself. I happen to know him a lot better than anyone else on the board. I know your opinion is not accurate. I have seen how hard he tries to help the kids find out what they can do in life that will bring them a joy for living. They are encouraged to peruse music, art and sports. In no way are the kids forced into some preconceived mold of what or who they should be.
Now, mind you, he is as human as you or I. He gets hurt and tired and frustrated and aggravated, just like you do. Sometimes it shows. But his Christianity is as genuine as a man's can be. I've never met a more devoted servant or more generous heart. This isn't something likely to be apparent on Fornits; but I know the man and I have seen it over and over.
So, I guess I would say, try and cut him some slack. Try and leave room for the notion you might be mistaken in your judgment; limited as it is.
My son and I were talking not to long ago; and ALA came up, and I was telling him about some problem or other they'd had with staff; and he says to me - "Ya know, the problem with the teen help business is there aren't more Craigs."
This kid had a taste of program hypocrites,("smile for the propaganda!") And he knows Craig real well. He does not put Craig in that category. This re-confirms for me I am not mistaken in my judgment.
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DID I REALLY READ THIS?
"Even if, all that is accomplished by a good program, is keeping them safe and sober, until they have a chance to mature out of the behavior..."
GET REAL: These types of facilities that you hang your hopes on DON'T ALLOW KIDS TO MATURE!!! PERIOD!!!
I believe that a kid would MATURE quicker LIVING ON THE STREETS than being DETAINED in these facilities!!!
Places like ALA do NOT offer REAL life experiences!!!
ALA and CRAIG ROGERS think they are helping a kid "mature" through FORCED CHARITY work.
FORCED CHARITY work is no way to make a person want to volunteer their time and talents when they're an adult.
FORCING others to perform ACTS OF KINDNESS only breeds contempt and resentment. When forced, it is NOT a CHARITABLE ACT - it is SLAVERY - plain and simple!!!
Why do you think Courts in this country have regularly started using COMMUNITY SERVICE as a form of PUNISHMENT? (Because it IS "PUNISHMENT".)
PARENTS: WAKE UP AND PROTECT YOUR KIDS FROM THIS INSANITY!!!
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***What about the kid whoz natural consequences are getting to be very costly in terms of emotional pain,stress, health, loss of future potentional ; and the over played, but still, definite increased risk of death? Have you any idea how terrifying this is? Ever had that cold hand clutch your heart?
Yep, it wasn't fun and damned scarey at times. What I learned is that my son was not responsible for my reactions to and feelings about his behavior. Teens HATE to be manipulated by the parents feelings and fears. He was not responsible for my pain, stress, health. I'm the adult. And kids need healthy role models- Adults who can, atleast most of the time, remain calm and matter-of-fact. Be honest and blunt, yet still respectful.
When he got to the point of wanting to make his own decisions and quit school, I treated him as I would a room mate. He paid rent, bought his own food and prepared it, etc... when he had a job and money. When he didn't it went in the debt book. There were many short stints that he chose to live elsewhere temporarily, which was awesome, because he was able to see that things weren't that differnt anywhere else, in some cases worse. At least once he lived on the streets for a couple of weeks. I was terrified, but tried not to show it. He learned so much from that experience. I also was able to trust, for the most part, that he had a good foundation and would make relatively good decisions.
By the time he moved out on his own he owed me $7000. He just finished paying me back this year.
That may not work for you, but somehow you should find a way to stay out of his/her way as much as possible. Life is the best teacher. They're going to have to learn how to live out there, and where they want to fit into society. Some may, but many can not learn from other experiences. My son had to meet matter head on. Any attempts I made to prevent the 'lessons' he was seeking would have driven a wedge further between us. This may have been easier for me to understand because I was that kind of teen.
In the meantime, and every opportunity I got, I would ask leading questions. You don't look so good, how are things going? Are you happy with the choices you're making? Are they meeting your needs? What are your goals for the near future? What are you doing to make them happen? Is there anyway I can assist? Are you interested in getting some counseling? Etc.
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I made mistakes as a teen that would turn your hair white.
I learned from them.
That's what human beings do--we learn.
Teenagers are *always* rash and dangerous--it's the nature of the beast.
I did need more help than my parents could give me, but I made it anyway. Sending me away from home would have been the worst mistake they could have made.
Look, unlike most people here I don't have a problem with sending a PITA kid to a strict, non-abusive boarding school *if* the kid is tearing up the house or harming the younger children or otherwise violent or using/hiding drugs in the house---as long as you give the kid advance notice to find somewhere else to live and if there's a non-criminal adult that the rest of society would generally consider responsible willing to take the kid in, you let them.
If the kid is harming the younger kids of course you can't let him stay in the house and if *nobody* wants him he has to go somewhere.
If the entire extended family and community thinks this kid belongs in a controlled environment until he's old enough to be out on his own, he probably does. One set of parents making a mistake I'd believe. *All* the kid's relatives and his friends' parents and his friends' grown siblings and the whole community--including the extended community of the outside world--making a huge mistake like that is a little harder to believe.
Residential treatment, even warehousing, is sometimes necessary. Between putting a 15 year old *nobody* wants in a strict, non-abusive, boarding school or kicking him out on the street, the boarding school is less bad.
It's just way, way overused. A lot of these kids have adult family or community members who would take them in, and the issue is just that the parents are trying to maintain a pathological level of control---and a lot of times don't even see the extent to which they are entangled with the problem and part of the whole vicious cycle making the problem with the teen.
Ginger is right when she calls the industry a troubled parents' industry.
I'm a parent. Being a parent is hard. Being a parent of a kid with special needs is harder.
These parents aren't demons, residential care isn't satan incarnate. But our current system has woefully inadequate checks and balances to prevent inappropriate placements and shut down abusive and traumatizing institutions.
So sure, when your kid has problems, it's hard.
A lot of times (not always) the solution is counter-intuitive and is less external control over the kid, not more.
The "less external control" solution is underused. There are a lot of kids for whom it's the optimum solution where it's not being applied.
A lot of times these parents got where they are now by trying to overcontrol a kid with special problems, and then when the kid gets to be a teen and rebels against the overcontrol, the parents try more of what didn't work before.
I think too much of this comes from we parents wanting to "fix" our wounded birds and make it all better. We want it desperately. But in trying to go for the perfect, we can lose the good we would have had if we allowed that even our wounded bird can and will learn from mistakes and had a little faith.
Timoclea
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Hi Deb. You write:
"He was not responsible for my pain, stress, health."
Yes he was. He might resent it; but even so, people should consider how their actions and words effect those around them. Teens might not always have learned this, but they need to asap. However, I was speaking of *His* emotional pain, stress and health. He was in trouble and he knew it. He has told me once he was on the plane he was relieved and thinking it was going to be a good thing. He didn't get mad about it until he got there and saw what it really was. Then he was mad as hell, b/c I had told him it was a school. It took a while for him to realize from the things I wrote him, I really thought it was a school. It took me awhile to realize it wasn't, from what he wrote me - and you know the rest of the story.
As for the room mate bit - thats pretty much where we are now and it is going pretty much as you say. But he is 19 now, not 15 - and that makes a big difference.
Timoclea
Once again, we are in agreement. I might be a bit looser with the circumstance for which a teen might benifit from time away from home - but there are so many options that something apropreate should be avilable for whatever the situation. Of corse, *some* kinds of programs are never apropreate.
You say:
"If the entire extended family and community thinks this kid belongs in a controlled environment until he's old enough to be out on his own, he probably does. One set of parents making a mistake I'd believe. *All* the kid's relatives and his friends' parents and his friends' grown siblings and the whole community--including the extended community of the outside world--making a huge mistake like that is a little harder to believe."
Exactly.
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On 2004-08-23 08:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
When you know your kid needs more help than the family can provide; When all else has proven futile; What then?
Then you come to terms w/ some harsh realities.
There may well be little you can do to absolutely prevent your child from experiencing some of the heart aches and hard knocks that your experience tells you they're asking for. If somebody told you exorcism would save him, would you bite? No? Why not? Do you need proof? I could find you a good many believers who would tell you they were saved from Satan's demons through exorcism. Isn't that proof enough?
What I'm trying to illustrate is that the Program is actually not proven to be effective. Not only that, but it is highly suspect for being harmful in that so damned many of us who've been through it all experience similar bad effects years and decades later.
Most of us wish our parents had been more 'neglectful' of us and just let us grow up on our own.
On the brighter side, you may be dead wrong and the kid is not doing half the things you suspect. (happens a lot! Not saying that's necessarily the case w/ your kid in particular) You seem quite convinced that your kid would be dead w/o the program. But you don't know that. And you didn't know when you sent him whether or not he would wind up as another one killed during restraint or from a treatable medical problem as the staff chided him for faking.
As no one can know for sure the ultimate outcome of anything we do, the end can never justify the means. So the preamble to the Hypocratic Oath is in order here; First, do no harm!
If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.
--Thomas Paine
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Hi Ginger.
You write:
"You seem quite convinced that your kid would be dead w/o the program."
No - thats an overstatement. I am just acutely aware he had /was significantly upping the odds.
I do admit, having had several young men in the family die, mostly from being goofy and reckless, has made me hypersensitive and anxious about it.
you point out:
"And you didn't know when you sent him whether or not he would wind up as another one killed during restraint or from a treatable medical problem as the staff chided him for faking. "
True nuff. When I sent him, I had no idea these things ever happened. It was unimaginable for me and I still have a hard time getting my head around it. I never dreamed. . .
What I worried about? Snakes, crocks and volcanoes.
"Stay away from the crocodile - there is no such thing as a tame crocodile"
"Wear your boots when you go on hikes; they have very poisonous snakes there."
"Hey Joe, how longs it been since that volcano was active?"
The boot statement brought much scorn. Mom! You don't know anything about this place! We can't wear Boots! We don't have hikes!"
(Can you see the light bulb flicker?)
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Based on the laws of the State of Utah, it is evident that laws were broken in the process of removing the child from Utah against the wishes of the parents.
76-5-301. Kidnapping.
(1) An actor commits kidnapping if the actor intentionally or knowingly, without authority of law, and against the will of the victim:
(a) detains or restrains the victim for any substantial period of time;
(b) detains or restrains the victim in circumstances exposing the victim to risk of bodily injury;
(c) holds the victim in involuntary servitude;
(d) detains or restrains a minor without the consent of the minor's parent or legal guardian or the consent of a person acting in loco parentis, if the minor is 14 years of age or older but younger than 18 years of age; or
(e) moves the victim any substantial distance or across a state line.
(2) As used in this section, acting "against the will of the victim" includes acting without the consent of the legal guardian or custodian of a victim who is a mentally incompetent person.
(3) Kidnapping is a second degree felony.
Amended by Chapter 301, 2001 General Session
As far as determining what is the truth and what is not regarding the emails that were sent home, seeing as the child was a participant in breaking the law, what she says cannot be trusted.
The Bible tells us that we are subjected to the laws and governing authorities over us. Period. The child was subjected to her parents, and we are subjected to the laws of the state. The laws as shown above were indeed broken.
Not only has there been interferance with the parents wishes for their daughter, but there has been blatant disregard for lawful order, and as such, with obediance to the Lord. With that in mind, it is obvious that the current situation, the girl being with those who disregard the law, is harmful to her well-being.
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Removing a child across state line against the wishes of the parent, i.e., kidnaping, can be a federal offense.
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On 2004-08-19 10:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
We are saved by faith in Christ.
Says who? Not everyone...most of the world, actually...does not believe this.
I follow this thread because I'm interested in the good vibes from Paige's story. Sorry that I have to wade through all this crap telling me what *I* need to do, etc. I'm very glad I'm not incarcerated in a TBS with no recourse (such as a delete key) to block out that which I do not believe.
Craig, I wish you'd re-title your rants so I could skip them. You are really offensive, and in the wrong place to prosetelize. This thread has to do with Amanda and her progress at home. "
Actually, the word of the Lord is not based on whether you believe it to be true or not. It is true with or without your belief. The Lord reigns. It is your choice not to believe. However, you must understand, there are consequences for your choices. Jesus is the only way to salvation.
This thread does indeed have to do with the Lord. The girl was placed where she was because she choose to live a life contrary to the authority that was in place over her, and as such, a life contrary to the Lord. She made the choices. God has given us all a free will. He will not force us to choose. Not adults, not minors. This thread is about the Lord because it is denying of the Lord that causes minor children like the girl in question to make bad choices. It is the denying of the Lord and His supremacy over us that causes people like Paige to think it is ok to be a co-conspirator in the kidnapping of the girl, and crossing her over state lines, in total defiance of the laws of the State of Utah.
If both were submitting their lives to the Lord as they should, none of this thread posting would have ever happened.
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Okay, buddy, so we'll chalk your vote down as one for the extremist contingent that thinks theocracy is a hunky-dory great idea.
I can't decide whether that's crazy, stupid, or evil of you, or a bit of all three. Whichever, it's plainly and blatantly *bizarre*.
The people who flew planes into buildings in New York thought they had The Truth, too. And, like you, they thought their Truth justified doing abominable things to unconsenting other people.
It's something that you haven't killed anyone, but when your opinion was the majority one in Christianity, it sure did kill a lot of people.
Fortunately for our country and the world today, *most* Christians don't share your lack of concern for the individual rights of others.
Timoclea
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In his mind whatever he believes is true, whether or not you do. Proof is irrelevant to him. Its frankly a waste of time to try to change the opinion of people like that.
His imaginary friend up in the clouds is true and we all just can't see it, or our poor damned souls are blinded by satan or whatever.
He is going to TRY make us all submit to his lord and his beliefs, and apparently his own children, so the best we can do is be thankful to our lord that we're not subject to his control and give him a wide berth. Also, hopefully his children will get a brianstem and think for themselves.
Yeah, free will, no proof, just beliefs passed down by word of mouth and books over thousands of years. Spiffy! Who do be we believe? A lot of this is faith in humanity, dude.
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To be crystal clear: Amanda has individual human rights, unalienable ones--whether the laws are currently protecting them or not. Those rights were violated. You appear to be hunky-dory with that, apparently because you appear to think your religion says it should be that way. I think that is some combination of crazy, stupid, or evil on your part.
*Most* Christians would hold that there are things that it's *legal* for parents to do to their teens that it isn't *right* for them to do---things that would violate the teen's human rights. *Most* Christian parents wouldn't agree with sending Amanda to ALA if Amanda were *their* daughter and would feel, deep down, that to do so would be *wrong*.
Timoclea
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Well, it seems to me, if she is seventeen; and she is determined to leave; its just fortunite for her she has a place to go.
Even if it is unwise and unfortunite; it is how it is; and fighting over it not likely to help matters.
Keep in mind as well, God has a real knack for taking bad situations and turning them around for the good of all - So maybe it's best to sit back and see what He'll do with this situation?
Let go, and Let God, in other words.
We all wish Amanda well, no matter her youthful transgretions. So, lets keep that in mind, and not add fuel to an already hot fire.
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Sounds good to me!!
Amanda is doing well in School and is enjoying being home. She loves spending time with her brother and has been able to spend quite a bit of time with her great grandmother who is 95.
She is looking at getting a part time job soon and planning for the rest of her education.
We still have not heard anything from her parents or from any authorities. There still have been no reports of a missing person made though there are rumors of her being kidnapped by her grandparents circulating from the parents church.
Eventually people will know what really happened and really it doesn't matter anymore. What is most important now is that everyone go on and have a good life. That is the past and we all need to look to the future. I am sure that people will have opinions about this for a very long time and you know it really doesn't matter.
The only opinion that really counts in the long run is God's opinion not some sanctimonious bible thumpin' pontificating individual who seems to believe he or she knows God better than the rest of us.
Let go and let GOD. OK I can do that. Maybe the parents can do that also and step up to the plate to wish her well. We shall see.
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Is Amanda with step parents, her brother, who is Paige? I'm trying to get a handle on how kids can be legally saved from some of theses places...
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On 2004-08-25 17:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Is Amanda with step parents, her brother, who is Paige? I'm trying to get a handle on how kids can be legally saved from some of theses places...
"
Paige is her grandmother.
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Ok. That makes sense! How did Amanda's parents get so wacky if her Grandma has sense? Did they get converted to some extremist religious sect?
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Sorry to be a buzz kill, but Paige is not Amanda's grand mother, aunt - or any other relation.She would be more of a family aquaintence.
The situation is unique tho, b/c Paige is Amanda's brother's adoptive Mom. She adopted the brother; and Amanda's Family adopted her. But Paige herself is not a relation of Amanda's.
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Wow! That is complicated. Were the kids adopted later in life? Were they in foster care first or something? How was Paige able to save Amanda from ALA when she is not her legal parent?
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Because amanda was 17. The age makes a big difference.
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So basically, if Amanda was 14 or 15, she'd be shit out of luck. Right?
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THIS IS A LIE - SCRIPTURE DOES NOT SAY THIS!
"Jesus is the only way to salvation."
Scripture does say, however, that ALL LIARS will be cast into the lake of fire - which is the second death.
(Better quit spouting those lies before you're made the centerpiece of a massive ETERNAL bbq.)
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Who is the HERETIC/LUNATIC who wrote this crap?
"This thread is about the Lord because it is denying of the Lord that causes minor children like the girl in question to make bad choices."
Go back and read where those under 20 years of age were NOT JUDGED and in FACT they entered into the Promised Land whereas THE UNRIGHTEOUS ADULTS WERE PUT TO DEATH.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it - you SPAWN OF SATAN!!!
YOU WILL BURN IN HELL FOR YOUR UNRIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT AGAINST CHILDREN!!! YOU DARE JUDGE WHERE GOD DOES NOT JUDGE!!!
BURN, HELLION, BURN!!! (OR TRULY REPENT and PRAY FOR GOD'S MERCY ON YOUR EVIL SOUL!!!)
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A PREVIOUS POST STATED:
"...Paige to think it is ok to be a co-conspirator in the kidnapping of the girl, and crossing her over state lines, in total defiance of the laws of the State of Utah."
Here is the UTAH LAW on CHILD KIDNAPPING - AMANDA IS 17 YEARS OLD - THE PERSON POSTING APPARENTLY HAS LIED AGAINST PAIGE and an alleged co-conspirator - BECAUSE UTAH LAW FOR CHILD KIDNAPPING APPLIES TO THOSE UNDER 14 YEARS OF AGE!!!
76-5-301.1. Child kidnapping.
(1) An actor commits child kidnapping if the actor intentionally or knowingly, without authority of law, and by any means and in any manner, seizes, confines, detains, or transports a child under the age of 14 without the consent of the victim's parent or guardian, or the consent of a person acting in loco parentis.
AMANDA WOULD BE CONSIDERED THE "VICTIM" UNDER UTAH LAW, SO PAIGE & HER ALLEGED CO-CONSPIRATOR COULDN'T BE GUILTY OF KIDNAPPING IN UTAH UNLESS AMANDA WAS TAKEN AGAINST HER WILL. Here's THAT UTAH LAW:
76-5-301. Kidnapping.
(1) An actor commits kidnapping if the actor intentionally or knowingly, without authority of law, and against the will of the victim...
PAIGE AND THE ALLEGED CO-CONSPIRATOR AREN'T EVEN GUILTY, ACCORDING TO UTAH LAW, OF "CUSTODIAL INTERFERENCE". Here's THAT UTAH LAW BECAUSE AMANDA ISN'T UNDER THE AGE OF 16:
76-5-303. Custodial interference.
(1) A person, whether a parent or other, is guilty of custodial interference if, without good cause, the actor takes, entices, conceals, or detains a child under the age of 16 from its parent, guardian, or other lawful custodian:
COULD THIS FALSE STATEMENT BE CONSIDERED TO BE SLANDER OR LIBEL AGAINST PAIGE AND HER ALLEGED CO-CONSPIRATOR CONSIDERING WHAT UTAH LAW SAYS?
"[Paige and her co-conspirator acted] in total defiance of the laws of the State of Utah"
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Why do all your posts spew fire and brimstone instead of love and forgiveness? I don't know the situation, but maybe God has given you this challenge to open your mind and heart to other perspectives. I think it would help if you posted from a more humble position than from the pulpit as well.
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ditto! what this girl has gone through only she can truly know. let us all move on and pray that she can from this point on live a normal teenage life; go to movies, date, drive, work, go to school, make new friends and enjoy her family.
school will be difficult, but it is a place where she can begin to be a teenager again. i hope her parents will allow her to do that.
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On 2004-08-26 19:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"THIS IS A LIE - SCRIPTURE DOES NOT SAY THIS!
"Jesus is the only way to salvation."
Scripture does say, however, that ALL LIARS will be cast into the lake of fire - which is the second death.
(Better quit spouting those lies before you're made the centerpiece of a massive ETERNAL bbq.)"
has it ever occured to you that we are not discussing scripture here. we are discussing the legalities of this situation. go pontificate elsewhere.
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On 2004-08-25 14:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
76-5-301. Kidnapping.
(1) An actor commits kidnapping if the actor intentionally or knowingly, without authority of law, and against the will of the victim:
(a) detains or restrains the victim for any substantial period of time;
(b) detains or restrains the victim in circumstances exposing the victim to risk of bodily injury;
(c) holds the victim in involuntary servitude;
(d) detains or restrains a minor without the consent of the minor's parent or legal guardian or the consent of a person acting in loco parentis, if the minor is 14 years of age or older but younger than 18 years of age; or
(e) moves the victim any substantial distance or across a state line.
(2) As used in this section, acting "against the will of the victim" includes acting without the consent of the legal guardian or custodian of a victim who is a mentally incompetent person.
(3) Kidnapping is a second degree felony.
Amended by Chapter 301, 2001 General Session
Seems to me that this is exactly what her parents and ALA did to her. Oh yeah, thats right, it is OK because it was her parents and a religious organization.
Read it carefully no one broke any laws and the parents were notified within the required 8 hours. All the dad said was that we would have to get together and talk about it. Still hasn't happened.
They did what they thought was right and so did we. Both parties have had legal council. If they want to fight over this in court we are ready willing and able. We are also ready willing and able to move on without any problems. We shall see what happens.
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Not trying to be a smart ass here; but Paige, I don't see anything about it's OK to take the kid if you tell the parents within 8 hours. . . It looks to me, that article D is a problem for you guys - But I hope there won't be a fight. I don't think it would do any good at all.
I do think you over stepped your bounds and made a rash decision, that may not have been for the best.
But its done.
At this point, I think it best, to make the best that can be made, out of the situation at hand.
And not to pontificate (skip on, all those who hate Christian debate)but the message of the New Testament is crystal clear; there is no salvation except threw Jesus the Christ. The Old Testament Prophets speak clearly on this message as well.
Now, if that offends you, you really ought to do some self introspection as to why that is. If you simply think it all a fairy tale then why argue with the fools for Christ who accept it as Truth?
If you believe this Masson notion that there are many paths to God; Then you really ought to look deeply into what the Christ Himself had to say about this. If you have fallen for the oldest lie; and think yourself a baby god - again, you need to read what the Bible has to say on this subject. It is diametrically opposed to what you have been taught; and when you practice a faith that teaches this, your god is in fact Lucifer, not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
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If you did some research you would understand that, that is the law. The child over 16 and the people he or she is with has 8 hours to notify the parents, authorities, or the guardian. The parents were notified hence no charges may be filed in any way against anyone. These people did their homework you haven't.
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This thread is not about religion or anyones belief system. It is strictly about a young women coming home and getting her life back.
If you think that this is not God's will for her to be home that is your opinion but it has no bearing on any of this. It is not for any of us to judge anyone in this situation. As you said it is done. We will all go on from here. We are coming up on 4 weeks that no one has heard from the police, the parents or anyone else. Maybe you should not waste your time trying to figure out anyones religious affiliations and just pray for all involved that everyone will go on to have a wonderufl life with God's blessings. Ipersaonally do not care what you think of me, you do not have any idea as to what has happened or how this child has suffered. I will thank you in advance for your prayers for Amanda to have a wonderful life but please do not preach to me or any of the rest of us - start your own thread for that. By the way that rash decision you think was made may have been but it took since March when they shipped her off and a team of attorneys along with many members of all of her families who wanted the best for Amanda.
Best Wishes
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On 2004-08-26 16:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sorry to be a buzz kill, but Paige is not Amanda's grand mother, aunt - or any other relation.She would be more of a family aquaintence.
The situation is unique tho, b/c Paige is Amanda's brother's adoptive Mom. She adopted the brother; and Amanda's Family adopted her. But Paige herself is not a relation of Amanda's.
"
Ah, whatever. Paige is the Amanda's brother's mom.
Okay.
Still, it looks like all of Amanda's extended family, and the 17 year old herself, are happy with her being home. And apparently Amanda had the right under Utah law to go with Paige if she wanted to, and apparently she did want to.
She's in school, she has mainstream spiritual guidance available in her religion (ie--is going to a mainstream church), she's where she wants to be under the roof of a responsible adult who's been found by the legal system to be fit to raise a child. She isn't being abused or neglected or breaking any laws.
I wish her well and I hope all the family members involved (and I would count Paige a family member of the in-law variety) do well and someday get reconciled with each other.
Best wishes, all.
Timoclea
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All I'm looking at is whats posted here - I don't see That posted except as your say so; But if you say so. . .
Paige, these threads often take many quirky turns and you might as well get used to it. I was responding with my thoughts just like everyone else. I don't pretend to know God's will for Amanda, or you, or anyone; but I do know He will meet her where ever she is, whenever she calls Him; and I find Peace in that knowledge. I hope you do too.
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Thank you,
Amanda, her brother and myself call on God daily to guide us and to give Him thanks for all of his blessings. Thank you for your concern and thank you Timoclea for your support. You are a wonderful person and I hope to meet you some day.
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I think that for now it is time for me to exit this forum. I want to thank all of you for your help and support. It is time for all of us here to move on with our lives and focus on the future not the past.
There are so many people who have helped me to find Amanda and bring her home that I will never be able to express enough how much they have touched our lives and our hearts.
There is a certain woman who has conversed with me by phone on many ocassions that I will never be able to thank enough. God bless you "T". God was most gracious in sending you to help us.
Timoclea you are a resounding voice of reason keep it up. The world needs more people like you. Spots thank you for your sound advice, keep in touch.
Ginger keep up the good work. Your forum is an invaluable source of information,networking and healing. Bless you.
Pray for us.
Good Bye
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62A-7-101. Definitions.
(22) "Runaway youth" means a youth who willfully leaves the residence of a parent or guardian without the permission of the parent or guardian.
62A-4a-501. Providing shelter to a runaway -- Reporting requirements -- Division to provide assistance -- Penalty.
(1) Any person who knowingly and intentionally harbors a minor and who knows at the time of harboring the minor that the minor is away from the parent's or legal guardian's home, or other lawfully prescribed residence, without the permission of the parent or legal guardian, shall >>>>>>>promptly notify the parent or legal guardian of the minor's location or report the location of the minor to the division. >>>>>>>The report may be made by telephone or any other reasonable means.
(2) Unless the context clearly requires otherwise:
>>>>>>>>(a) "Promptly" means within eight hours after the person has knowledge that the minor is away from home without parental permission.
(b) "Shelter" means the person's home or >>>>>>any structure over which the person has >>>>>>any control.
(3) Upon receipt of a report that a minor is being harbored by a person the division shall notify the parent or legal guardian that a report has been made and inform the parent or legal guardian of assistance available from the division.
(4) A parent or legal guardian who is aware that his minor is being harbored may notify the division or a law enforcement agency and request assistance in retrieving the minor from the place of shelter. The division or local law enforcement agency >>>>>>may assist the parent or legal guardian in retrieving the minor.
(5) Any person who knowingly and intentionally harbors a minor and who knows at the time of harboring the minor that the minor is away from the parent's or legal guardian's home, or other lawfully prescribed residence, without the permission of the parent or guardian >>>>>>>and without making the notification required by this section<<<<<<< is guilty of a class B misdemeanor.
Enacted by Chapter 245, 1996 General Session
75-5-202.5. Appointment of guardian by written instrument.
(1) The parent of an unemancipated minor may appoint a guardian by written instrument designating the guardian. An appointment by written instrument >>>>>>>becomes effective where:
(a) the written instrument is >>>>>>filed with >>>>>>>>>the petition<<<<<<<<< for appointment of guardian >>>>>>>>>>>>in the court<<<<<<<<<< having probate jurisdiction in the county of residence of the last parent to die, if death occurred in the state, and otherwise >>>>>>>>in the court<<<<<<<<<<<< having probate jurisdiction in the county in which the minor resides in the state; and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(b) the person appointed as guardian filed in the court having jurisdiction an affidavit of acceptance which states:
(i) the name, address, and age, or birthday if known, of the minor;
(ii) the name, address, and telephone number of the appointee-guardian;
(iii) the names of the parents of the minor and that both are dead >>>>>>>>>>or that any surviving parent has been adjudged incapacitated;<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
(iv) the name of the parent who was last to die and the county where that parent resided at the date of his death;
(v) that the appointee-guardian knows of no other appointment of a guardian which supersedes the appointment by written instrument;
(vi) that the appointee-guardian accepts the appointment.
(2) The latest document appointing a guardian, whether will or written instrument, which is executed by the last parent to die has priority.
***********>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(3) Upon acceptance of an appointment, written notice of acceptance shall be given *******>>>>>>>>>by the guardian >>>>>>>>>>to the minor,<<<<<<<<<<<< *******if he is 14 years of age or older,******** and to the person having his care or to his nearest adult relative.
(4) For purposes of this chapter, "instrumental" refers to a written instrument as described in this section.
Enacted by Chapter 41, 1985 General Session
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Bye, Paige. Thanks for the kind words, and best wishes again to you and Amanda and the whole extended family.
Timoclea
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Speaking of people who just got home I just came back from Abundant Life Academy on July 15. Got there on November 13 2003 and was there 8 in a half months. While I was there at first back in November things were good spiritually we had american staff that were some what allright. Then my third month into the hell hole it started changing drasticly emotionaly and spiritually. We did have times when there was fun but mostly when we would sneak out and buy ciggerttes or alcohol. Or steal pills to snort in the cottages at night while the mexican night staff where asleep. Stealing gas from the shed and huffing it until my mind gos numb. We really did have some great times there my third day I ran away with two other guys there heading for the border. At the end of my time around 9 months there were things that went on like sleep deprevation, or making someone wear a blind fold for 7 days, cant talk, see, or respond. "O just keep em in tha hole "new opportuniy room" until is time is served to where we can through him in a different program because of the sh*t he causes here" Well have some students sorround him like night staff and kick his ass if he runs. Trust me we did make plans on doing such a thing especially since we had a staff tell us that it was perfectly allright aslong as we dont hit him in the face. Fu*ked up. I was a night staff at level three. Finally getting at the point where I am willing to kiss a$$ to leave. It worked. This student that was treated like this is no out of the program because his dad snached him out. I talked to him just the other day. He was driving back from New York with staff that used to work with ALA. I was there nearly 9 months for the same old reasons that others are like drug use, drug dealing, gang affiliation, trouble with law, family, and etc. I had cummunity service time due the february before I left. Well the program never sent my records from cumm. serv. wrk from when I was ther to my P.O. so now I have a warrant out for my arrest. They didnt send any of my school work out. Unorganized and irresponsible. Im starteing to wunder why Craig is hiding for so long in the Republic. Well good lock on your war for the fu*ked hypocrits. Lates :nworthy:
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Grettings to Hector Hernandez my Homie, Tim, Alex, Ariana, and all those ALA homies. :wave:
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Ryan i just got back from ALA.I will cantact you through private messages through this forum.I need to talk to u bout some things and get some more info.! im so glad you got out of that place! Check the privae messages in the menu for this forum. I need to talk to you.
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Seems that the kids are not in Ajijic as the webg site used to say. Haven't checked it in awhile but the kids are actually in an area called San Nicholas I will have more info later
pay attention to what Ryan is reporting. There are other people coming forward to back it up.
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the girls are in saun nicholas tlachichico!!
the boys are about 3-5 miles away!
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On 2004-09-01 20:02:00, Ryan wrote:
"Speaking of people who just got home I just came back from Abundant Life Academy on July 15. Got there on November 13 2003 and was there 8 in a half months. While I was there at first back in November things were good spiritually we had american staff that were some what allright. Then my third month into the hell hole it started changing drasticly emotionaly and spiritually. We did have times when there was fun but mostly when we would sneak out and buy ciggerttes or alcohol. Or steal pills to snort in the cottages at night while the mexican night staff where asleep. Stealing gas from the shed and huffing it until my mind gos numb. We really did have some great times there my third day I ran away with two other guys there heading for the border. At the end of my time around 9 months there were things that went on like sleep deprevation, or making someone wear a blind fold for 7 days, cant talk, see, or respond. "O just keep em in tha hole "new opportuniy room" until is time is served to where we can through him in a different program because of the sh*t he causes here" Well have some students sorround him like night staff and kick his ass if he runs. Trust me we did make plans on doing such a thing especially since we had a staff tell us that it was perfectly allright aslong as we dont hit him in the face. Fu*ked up. I was a night staff at level three. Finally getting at the point where I am willing to kiss a$$ to leave. It worked. This student that was treated like this is no out of the program because his dad snached him out. I talked to him just the other day. He was driving back from New York with staff that used to work with ALA. I was there nearly 9 months for the same old reasons that others are like drug use, drug dealing, gang affiliation, trouble with law, family, and etc. I had cummunity service time due the february before I left. Well the program never sent my records from cumm. serv. wrk from when I was ther to my P.O. so now I have a warrant out for my arrest. They didnt send any of my school work out. Unorganized and irresponsible. Im starteing to wunder why Craig is hiding for so long in the Republic. Well good lock on your war for the fu*ked hypocrits. Lates :nworthy: "
Stealing gas from the shed and huffing it, your sorry little ass belongs in rehab!
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On 2004-10-06 13:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
Stealing gas from the shed and huffing it, your sorry little ass belongs in rehab!
Maybe. Damned shame he wound up in Jim Jones land instead, huh?
Regardless, this kid seems pretty self posessed and sensible. Looks like he's been able to pull himself together despite it all.Psychedelics often produce psychotic and even violent behavior in those who have never used them.
--Timothy Leary
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I am glad Amanda is home and wish her the best in readjusting to the real world and to school. As for the persone who wrote the email no wonder you chose not to put your name on your message> God's will is not abusive Homes- never has been never will be . God saved her from further abuse- you are correct- she will have trouble adjusting. That is because of the lessons learned inALA. , not becasue God was thwarted
Cheryl Wright
Bethesda 1984-1982
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yes it is good the young man has pulled himself together after coming home from "ala"
hopefully he will get with other people who have gotten out and keep in touvh and try and do somthing aboiut this place "ALA" an unsupervised astablishment.
may God help him choose wisely
Viva
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:exclaim: :exclaim: IM LOOKING FOR JETAIM "JET" ~ SHE WAS IN ALA ! ANY INFO CONTACT ME PRIVATE!THANK YOU.
:smile: -AMANDA/VIVA
"MANDI"
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yo my hommie G, wassup
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:exclaim: iHola! Que paso? Me llamo Ryan ¿Quién es esto? ¡La Academia abundante de la Vida es muy estúpida! Ahora hablaré en inglés. Glad to see that almost everybody is back. I would'nt say that I miss that place at all, but you sure gotta miss some of those people you grew close to. Any wayz just want to shout out to all those who remember who this is. :exclaim: Ahora puedo salir en la paz. Tenga un gran día y adiós. :lol:
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You guys want your own forum?
When we talk to god, it's prayer. When god talks to us, it's schizophrenia.
--Lily Tomlin, American actress
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On 2005-03-19 14:32:00, Ryan wrote:
" :exclaim: iHola! Que paso? Me llamo Ryan ¿Quién es esto? ¡La Academia abundante de la Vida es muy estúpida! Ahora hablaré en inglés. Glad to see that almost everybody is back. I would'nt say that I miss that place at all, but you sure gotta miss some of those people you grew close to. Any wayz just want to shout out to all those who remember who this is. :exclaim: Ahora puedo salir en la paz. Tenga un gran día y adiós. :wave: good spanish!