Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2004, 11:22:00 PM
I set it up from the beginning, Ascent for 6 weeks, learned to shut myself up there, probably the reason i ended up at Boulder Creek Academy. Tough Shit. 1 week in i had a steady hook-up for anything i needed to get my hands on while at BCA from a few kids on a doctors trip in bonners ferry who happened to live a mile and a half from my dorm, MLK for all you BCAers
Everyones experience is different and if you learn to you use your intelligence for something that you can use to kill time other than just sittin on your ass bitching about it than i guess i can say that BCA really wasnt a "tramatic" "abusive" "scarring" experience for me, it was just another step in life and a way to PIMP THE SYSTEM.
anyone feel free to comment, i may have come across in a bad way but dont hate me for it i just gotta let it out.
Im big on pimp the system, anyone heard of dead prez would know what im talking about, its also the shirt i wore on my graduation day and its rasta colored, a big no no apparently at CEDU yet they tackle no drug issues....interesting
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2004, 11:53:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2004, 11:57:00 PM
Post by: Deborah on August 03, 2004, 01:06:00 AM
My son learned to play the game too and got himself to dorm head before it was over, just to get some moments of relief. To be out from under the magnifying glass for a few precious moments. He also experienced internal conflict everytime he had to smile and say yes, when he'd rather not have. To this day he will fabricate when it's not necessary. As if they are still evaluating his every movement.
Post by: Anonymous on August 03, 2004, 02:47:00 PM
I lived everyday with honesty, i would simply just hide the "underground" things i was doing, who didnt? in terms of being honest with myself i was primarily sent there for drug addiction how was i suppose to communicate with kids that fantasized about there grandparents having sex?!, only to find there is no treatment or counseling for it...so basically i was stuck but not alone many other kids found many things hard to understand which led to this "underground" at BCA.
Im currently in treatment now and doing very well with it, those 2 years i dont consider lost because they are an everyday part of my life and ive made many good friends there which whom i still communicate with..
In response to the "dorm head" statement i was a dorm head for 6 months and earned the Older Student Dorm in which i had my own Microwave, Stereo, Bathroom, and Refrigerator as well as a bigger bed...talk about freedom i was practically home...and still using drugs
I find it hard to believe that there was no input/output of things when you were there..how hard could it have been, i was being shadowed and on watched every 20 min my first month and still managed to bring in substances.
Id really mainly like a response to the "acting/actor" comment wondering if its negative or how you gotta do it
Post by: Deborah on August 03, 2004, 03:04:00 PM
I think those who can learn the skill will have an easier time of it. Those who can't are likely to be more aggressively abused.
Post by: Anonymous on August 03, 2004, 06:11:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 03, 2004, 06:31:00 PM
Unfortunately, CEDU makes it impossible to do that. The program uses antiquated, psudo, philosophy, and the staff are uneducated, disfunctional adult children. It is very hard to receive from someone or something without some respect.
I saw many techniques used by students to survive CEDU which would not serve students too well in the real world. I suggest all of you ex-CEDU students put your defenses away now. It's time to receive.
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 04, 2004, 08:22:00 AM
Is knowing how to act at cedu an asset in the real world? No, certainly not. In a nutshell, "Looking Good" at cedu involves being completely dishonest, never standing up for yourself in the face of confrontation, accepting everything you are told without question, and allowing your self to be completely dominated and subserviant to people (staff) who are clearly no better than, and often times inferior to yourself. Also, most Look Goods upon a staff's command, were able to snap into a rage of self-directed hysterics, complete with tears, mucus on the floor, and drawn out screaming reflections about how much they hated themselves for being such aweful people. While this behavior might earn some points in another institutional setting like a mental hospital for instance, it is clearly a recipe for failure in the real world. This is because cedu teaches people to be sheep. In the real world the way to get ahead is to be a Wolf, or better yet, a Tiger. Sheep get eaten alive. No one likes being around crybabies who constantly pity themselves out loud.
I submit that cedu survivors would be most successful in the real world by doing exactly the opposite of Looking Good at cedu.
.
Post by: Anonymous on August 04, 2004, 03:52:00 PM
I was reamed for being right in raps, and i was no suck up or look good, either, i was on my fare share of 17 restrictions and 3 jump suits. So it was no east trip but the vision i had for the 2nd year i was there came true and i was ina good position, Dirt Lists were being written and i refused many a time, its not my responsibility to tell on myself or other people, the most they could do was put me on a little bitch of a restriction, saved myself and a lotta people.
on and on, the saga continues
Post by: Anonymous on August 04, 2004, 05:51:00 PM
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 04, 2004, 05:55:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 04, 2004, 07:08:00 PM
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 05, 2004, 09:04:00 AM
Then Cedu middle school opened about 6 months before I left. After Cedu MS. started up, Tim Brace (headmaster of cedu at the time) and crew began experimenting with changing cedu-rs on a trial and error basis, they told us this was being done so we students would feel safer staying at the school (instead of running away).
During my last 4 months at cedu-rs, the staff had no idea what they were doing. At one point for about 6 weeks the Source and New Horizons families were eliminated and those students were combined into something called "program", It really pissed-off the source students at the time because some of their special priveledges were taken away, and they were basically reduced to the same level as students like myself who were 2 peer groups below them. I had just been moved up to NH when this happened and I loved the idea that no one could pull the source power trip on me. A lot of distraught older students just had total temper tantrums in raps about the changes, and eventually certain staff (like Rudy Benz) started crying about it. i found this all to be humorous and refreshing. Eventually, Cedu squashed the whole program idea, and changed everything back to how it was before. I split for the final time not long after that.
[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-05 07:42 ]
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on August 05, 2004, 10:11:00 AM
You remember how we used to sneak into town every night and get cigarettes and chewing tobacco?
I also had a girlfriend named Rachel at home.
Anything to stay sane.
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 05, 2004, 10:36:00 AM
John Brogan, oh my god that poor kid!
he dropped 2 peer groups and was at cedu for over 3 and a half years! For the record, John was Dudly Moore's (who starred in the movie "ARTHUR") step son. John's Mother is Brogan Lane, a Former Virginia Slims Model.
Bryan, Do you remember John Gottlieb? He was dropped 4 peer groups because he kept sneaking into the girls dorms and masterbating in their undergarments! Remember when staff found Rachel U'katel's slip stuck ("organic adhesive") to the wall of the new wing boy's bathroom? They totally flipped!!! We had all boys raps every rap for like 3 weeks after that!!!
.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-05 11:29 ]
Post by: Anonymous on August 05, 2004, 10:55:00 AM
Also:how do you think most of your peers feel about CEDU? I mean, I thought it was total brainwash, and even though I split, I continued to be affected subconsciously. Do you think most knew it was BS or did most buy in? On some level, I wondered if you go through so much emotional and physical labor that you convince yourself that it all had meaning to avoid feeling it was all for naught. I know one kid said he was high on CEDU when he graduated because you go through so many intense experiences, and it wasn't until he got out that he realized how stunted he was in every arena.
You want to hear something sad? When I was there, Neil Diamond's son was there and he had to listen to his pop non-stop. Call me crazy, but I liked ND music but I wouldn't want to hear it if I weer his kid at CEDU.
--S
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 05, 2004, 04:16:00 PM
Man I would give just about anything for the opportunity to come face to face with any or better yet all of those fucks! I gotta go
smoke and chill out fo a while.
Hey Shanlea, did you know any of the staff i just mentioned?
.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-05 13:25 ]
Post by: Anonymous on August 05, 2004, 04:32:00 PM
Have you ever had an opportunity to speak to any staff after you left and clear the air? Has there ever been a staff that admits how f-up it was?
What do you have to do to get a full-time? I split once and didn't get it though others did. I got table time and indefinite work detail.
I can't believe one kid was there for 3.5 years! What were his parents thinking?!!
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 05, 2004, 04:38:00 PM
.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-05 13:39 ]
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 05, 2004, 05:04:00 PM
Other people got full times for breaking the No Sex And No Drugs agreements. Walking out of a rap or profeet was a guaranteed fulltime. I even remember that a few guys that were put on fulltimes because they couldn't stop jerking off!
.
Post by: Anonymous on August 05, 2004, 07:01:00 PM
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 06, 2004, 08:24:00 AM
Obviously you're nothing but a total "Cedu Sheep" Loser. Listen Cedu Sheep, if you want to defend CEDU, that's your right, but don't come out here telling me that i can't be pissed off about how I was mistreated, just because the shit happened 10 years ago. I'll probably still be pissed off 50 years from now, and my anger will still be just as valid as it is now.
Hey Cedu Sheep: BAHAHAHA!!! GO SHAVE YOUR ASS AND MAKE A COAT OR SOMETHING!!! YOU FUCKING LOSER!
.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-06 05:25 ]
Post by: Anonymous on August 06, 2004, 10:03:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-08-05 16:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"apparently some of you were stuck looking at the situation from inside the box, the school was not a lockdown people. what you did was no one elses concern and yeah you were being watched 24-7 but shit get used to it, theres ways to work around it....fuck i cant stress that enough, theres soooo much focus on this and on that about the program, your not behind bars and you can roam freely i couldnt stand seeing kids just living in a box all the time not looking at the oppurtunites at hand. yeah getting reamed in raps isnt the end of the world just take it and fuckin accept it work your way through it and your out. although i do agree with some people when they whine about raps because staff have no idea what there doing or how to control things, its pointless meaningless yelling that if you dont let affect you then you can be smart enough to turn things around back on them....obviously some ov you belonged there if you whine about it 10 fucking years after youve left."
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 06, 2004, 10:08:00 AM
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on August 06, 2004, 10:16:00 AM
Serb- no need to defend us.
I'm devoutly Anti-Christian, but I like how Jesus said "Don't cast your pearls before swine."
He also said "Wherever there is good, evil wants its equal time."
Everything in nature tries to equalize and balance.
That's why when you show superiority, things either strive to attain your level or they strive to bring you to theirs.
We know you aren't a loser. We know you run your own business and are married with a newborn son.
Just my opinion.
[ This Message was edited by: Bryan Felsher on 2004-08-06 07:17 ]
Post by: Anonymous on August 06, 2004, 12:28:00 PM
Man! It was always my understanding that they'd boot you for too many fulltimes or for any violence. I guess as long as they get a check. I remember 2 guys in my peer group got booted for planning arson, but we never got the full story...they were just gone. I still can't get over the fact that people broke the sex and drug agreements simply because it seemed noone really broke the big agreements. splitting and walking out of raps/propheets were the biggies. Everyone seemed pretty compliant and led around by the noose. Scared sheep. I mean, I don't know how anyone would even get stuff in. I probably didn't know much. I just kept quiet and planned my escape.
I was always surprised noone caught me the second time, an older student was right on my heels trying to convince me not to split but stopped at the school boundary. Didn't take the main road, obviously, but didn't get caught. At the time, I think there were two phones in town--at the elementary school and the general store, so that was covered.
Post by: Anonymous on August 06, 2004, 01:55:00 PM
and what the fucks with the name calling, and bragging about shit. I dont care if you beat up a marine i sure dont give a shit about you fighting or how big you are....whatryagonnadooo come beat my ass, why dont you grow up. and read thoroughly next time
Post by: Anonymous on August 06, 2004, 02:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-06 07:08:00, SON OF SERBIA wrote:
"Did you just call me a loser? I don't know what CYA is, but I've been to Cook County jail a few times, no one ever "tossed me around" there, so i seriously doubt any of the "CYA" inmates could either. For the record I'm a 6'-4", 240 lb, brown belt in karate, I've been in well over 100 fights in my life, and no one has ever "tossed me around like a frisbee". The last fight that I was in, I beat the shit out of marine lieutenant, believe me, I'm no Frisbee! "
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 06, 2004, 03:47:00 PM
As for good memories about cedu, I have absolutely none, PERIOD!!! I didn't graduate the program, and I spent all of my time and energy finding a way out of that hell hole, and after splitting 6 times, I finally got out. As far as good friends go, the only person i knew from cedu that I have any contact with is Bryan Felscher, One person, that's it, and he is my only friend from there. Besides how could anyone consider people who would consistantly rat them out at the drop of a hat, friends?
You say that you were one of the people that made cedu part of the community, instead of a secluded profeet factory, WELL FUCK YOU THEN!!!
All cedu will ever be is a secluded brainwashing, cult, freakfest!!! that's it. if you are trying to make cedu a part of any normal community, it's only because you are one of them, A GENUINE CEDU SHEEP!!! That being said, your really not worth wasting any more of my time.
You say I didn't read your post carefully, well you obviously didn't read any of mine at all. If you did, then you would know that I was responding to questions put to me by Shanlea, and not simply whining. Eat Shit Cedu Sheep!
Oh, and if one of you are ottawa5's son (mr. self-surveilance himself), you are a total pussy. why don't you just say who you are and debate me like a man, instead of taking these little pussy anonymous pot shots at me. you fucking loser!
.
Post by: Anonymous on August 06, 2004, 05:15:00 PM
youd be surprised to how things work around there, for the size its a surprisingly active drug community and theres plenty of them, alot of drugs went in and out of BCA itself.
and im sorry man but none of my friend ssnitched on me and if they did they wouldnt even get a look in their direction from me, i dunno who you are or why you went there at all but i can take a wild guess and just say your fuckin outta control man, you need to learn some other levels and fuckin listen for a change instead of heating every fucking issue
Post by: Anonymous on August 06, 2004, 05:20:00 PM
I just dont want you to think i support cedu in a positive way at all, and i never once have said that, so i dunno where your presuppositions are comin from
Post by: Anonymous on August 06, 2004, 05:25:00 PM
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 06, 2004, 05:35:00 PM
I ran 6 times, because i couldn't stand being somewhere where i was told what to think, how to act,how to speak, what i could say, to whom i could speak, what i could wear, etc... I'm a free spirit, my life and right to choose to live as i wish belong to me, and no one else. I wanted my life back, because it's mine, and that's exactly what i did, i took back what is mine. I wasn't going to wait around for 2 and a half years until someone gave me back the things that weren't theirs to take in the first place.
And yes, everyone at cedu-rs in 1991-92 was a snitch, so no i wouldn't call them my friends. and there was no big drug underground back then, if there was, believe me i would have known about it. By the way, please tell me who have I specifically threatened here? As for my wife and baby, they are both in very good hands, I assure you. By the way, I own and successfully run my own Construction business, and i make a very nice nice living from it. I also own my own home in one of the more affluent suburbs of Chicago. Obviously i'm no idiot. I have 10 times the mind that you have, and I'm at least 100 times the man that you are.
Post by: Anonymous on August 06, 2004, 10:35:00 PM
I shouldn't have posted anon... I did not write the anon post dissing you, I wrote to the anon saying that there were no active drug runs at CEDU like there apparently was (according to Serb-bashing anon)at BCA, which leads me to believe BCA was not as stringent as RS.
All the reasons you listed about CEDU were dead on.
But what I want to know is: Do you think most of our peers knew this? I split after Vision so I could not talk to any of them afterward. I've only discussed CEDU at this and other fora. Some have said at the other site that it took them awhile after the brainwashing to figure it out again when they realized they weren't adapting to the real world.
Post by: Anonymous on August 07, 2004, 01:20:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-08-06 12:47:00, SON OF SERBIA wrote:
"I could give a shit about what you fucks believe or don't believe about me, i told you who and what I am, which is more than can be said about either of you. And no, I'm not going to beat anyone's ass, I grew up and out of that phase quite some time ago. I'm far too successful right now to go off and do something stupid like that. Besides, I got a wife and baby to support, and i've had more than my fill of incarceration and courtrooms.
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on August 07, 2004, 11:34:00 AM
What the fuck is your motivation. We are trying to destroy an evil simply because it is evil.
NOT because it is the most evil but because it IS evil.
Furthermore you dumb punk, any of us could say anything about who we are, whose ass we could kick, what jails we have been to, what prisons.
What the fuck does it matter?
We are not going to "GET OVER CEDU!"
I'm not.
Not until it is destroyed.
We got to be wimps to think CEDU was rough? You know something, kid- I think CEDU was rough.
I was fucking slamming $*%^$@ while you were sucking at your mother's tits so FUCK OFF. You get over it. I won't.
And furthermore, you fucking piece of shit, yes- I and S.O.S. have been to places MUCH, MUCH darker then CEDU. We've been to places much darker and disturbing then the worst prisons. You dumb fucking kid. You don't have even a micron of understanding, and from your own inadequacy you wish to destroy and divide rather then joining our fight against that FASCIST CEDU mentality.
It is the same mentality that is responsible for the INQUISITION, THE GULAG, ABU GHRAIB, AUSHWITZ, TREBLINKA, WORLD WARS I and II, CUBA, NICARAGUA, PANAMA, etc....
Get the fuck out of here- we don't need any more self-centered (as opposed to VELDSHMERTZ), dividing (as opposed to uniting), pieces of shit around here. We already got rid of Ottawa5 for the most part. (She finally must have read her own posts, shocked herself and lost all her confidence)
Or join us?
Do I sound brainwashed by CEDU? Don't you feel the love?
[ This Message was edited by: Bryan Felsher on 2004-08-07 08:42 ][ This Message was edited by: Bryan Felsher on 2004-08-07 08:43 ][ This Message was edited by: Bryan Felsher on 2004-08-07 08:48 ]
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 07, 2004, 11:50:00 AM
You Big Pussy!
As for the BCA Anon, dude your a little bitch, period. I find it very funny that you have the nerve to say that I'm acting like a douche, if I recall, all of this "bickering" started when you interrupted my discussion with Shanlea, and then you called me a "whiner", a "loser", and then you said that I should be sent to someplace called CYA where they would "toss me around like a frisbee". You are the douche here! And now you say that you want to stop bickering, and that you would like to share and compare experiences with me? Sorry pal, but you blew any chance of ever having even a remotely civil conversation with me.
If any of you Anons are truly interested in learning about me, instead of just talking shit, I would recommend that you read my previous posts under the fornits topic entitled "I Want Your Stories" by MikeHunt. (I would post the thread here, except that I haven't learned how to do that yet). There I decribed in great detail the hell that I went through to get away from Cedu.
For the friendly Anon, I'm glad that you Agree with my reasons for splitting Cedu-Rs. To answer your question about whether or not my peers felt the same way as me, honestly I'm not sure. I believe that most of them felt as I did (perhaps not as strongly), thats why we all kept splitting. I was not exagerrating when I said earlier that someone split cedu-rs every other day while I was there. But many people did stay willingly and graduated the program.
I could never understand why some students so willingly sacrificed their fundamental, god given, basic rights and freedoms. There were a lot of kids at Cedu-Rs back then who were sentenced by the courts to graduate from there, I'm not talking about them.
I'm talking about the other kids, who weren't on court orders, but actually desired to stay and graduate from that shit hole! some of these kids were already 18 and could leave anytime they wanted.
It's just mind boggling to me that anyone would willingly accept the complete denial of their most basic human rights to freedom of speech, freedom of self expression, freedom of religion (only jews were allowed to practice openly at Cedu-Rs back then), the right to a proper education, the right to privacy, the right to proper medical treatment, the right to disagree, etc... the list goes on and on. Having my most basic rights and freedoms denied to me, was a huge slap in the face, and I could never accept that on any level. Perhaps in my case, it has to do with the fact that I was born in a communist country. Even though i was very young when we came (3 yrs), I knew the absolute hell that my parents went through so we could come here, just so that we could have the same freedoms and opportunities that so many Americans take for granted. And there was absolutely no way that I was going to let Cedu or anyone else take that away from me.
Post by: Anonymous on August 07, 2004, 03:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-07 08:50:00, SON OF SERBIA wrote:
"I don't talk trash, I state facts. And Yes there are many places worse than cedu, no doubt. Cook County Jail in Chicago was one of them, I know because I've been there too. For the Anon who called me a wimp, Well I guess that's very easy to do over the computer when you're safe at home a thousand miles away from me, now isn't it?
You Big Pussy!
Post by: Anonymous on August 07, 2004, 03:53:00 PM
Also, I'm surprised more parents don't pull their kids on home visits. Did CEDU "prep" the parents before they were allowed to go home? (I know after parent weekends they did.)
Post by: shanlea on August 07, 2004, 03:54:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 07, 2004, 03:55:00 PM
If you want to close the place down then fucking do it. I won't get in your way.
Quote
On 2004-08-07 08:34:00, Bryan Felsher wrote:
"You know what you dumb anon punk, you don't know shit. We could all list 1000 other places worse then CEDU. We could even list probably at least 100 events in history more heinous then Treblinka. That doesn't take away from the horror.
What the fuck is your motivation. We are trying to destroy an evil simply because it is evil.
NOT because it is the most evil but because it IS evil.
Furthermore you dumb punk, any of us could say anything about who we are, whose ass we could kick, what jails we have been to, what prisons.
What the fuck does it matter?
We are not going to "GET OVER CEDU!"
I'm not.
Not until it is destroyed.
We got to be wimps to think CEDU was rough? You know something, kid- I think CEDU was rough.
I was fucking slamming $*%^$@ while you were sucking at your mother's tits so FUCK OFF. You get over it. I won't.
And furthermore, you fucking piece of shit, yes- I and S.O.S. have been to places MUCH, MUCH darker then CEDU. We've been to places much darker and disturbing then the worst prisons. You dumb fucking kid. You don't have even a micron of understanding, and from your own inadequacy you wish to destroy and divide rather then joining our fight against that FASCIST CEDU mentality.
It is the same mentality that is responsible for the INQUISITION, THE GULAG, ABU GHRAIB, AUSHWITZ, TREBLINKA, WORLD WARS I and II, CUBA, NICARAGUA, PANAMA, etc....
Get the fuck out of here- we don't need any more self-centered (as opposed to VELDSHMERTZ), dividing (as opposed to uniting), pieces of shit around here. We already got rid of Ottawa5 for the most part. (She finally must have read her own posts, shocked herself and lost all her confidence)
Or join us?
Do I sound brainwashed by CEDU? Don't you feel the love?
[ This Message was edited by: Bryan Felsher on 2004-08-07 08:42 ][ This Message was edited by: Bryan Felsher on 2004-08-07 08:43 ][ This Message was edited by: Bryan Felsher on 2004-08-07 08:48 ]"
Post by: Anonymous on August 07, 2004, 06:57:00 PM
Post by: bradensmith on August 07, 2004, 10:02:00 PM
Oh yea, and start posting your names you cowards. MAN UP a little[ This Message was edited by: bradensmith on 2004-08-07 19:03 ]
Post by: oh shizzle son on August 07, 2004, 10:58:00 PM
and to fucking claim you didnt threat anyone or brag about being in jail?! are you an idiot? read your own postsor stop believing your own lies, good lord.
and to the last post the RMA kid, i like what you have to say and thats where i wanted this thread to go, but a COWARDLY COMPUTER HIDING FUCK named serb came in and kinda put a roadblock on this whole operation, i agree with the wasting two years of your life and parents money, take what you can get and learn some things and not waste time, exactly what i didnt do
New Question: who here is actually in support of changing cedu other than just sittin around like a fuck sayin "shutting it down"
my thought is the problem isnt in the school, boarding schools are fine and can be fun at times, but if its run by a buncha low life a-holes with no sense of life than its not a good experience. actually fuck that lets blow it up
Post by: ottawa5 on August 07, 2004, 11:43:00 PM
How to improve on the current CEDU program, this is my question. My son went to RMA, he had a good experience, and his life is better for going there, but I hear these stories here at this site, some of them really awful.
What would you do to change CEDU, that's what I want to do, to keep what is positive, and still to get rid of what has the potential to hurt people?
My son says that he wouldn't change any of it, but maybe his experience was just lucky, with good friends and staff, I want other opinions too, what would you change?
My present idea is it has to do with hiring kind, sensitive people who can be strong too and not letting in kids who are not suited to the program (with certain psychological conditions I'm thinking), but I'd like more opinions.
Post by: Anonymous on August 08, 2004, 01:03:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-08-07 15:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"In Pelican Bay, you're ether running shit or your sucking cock and taking it up the ass. Which were you ex-CEDU rich boy? Yeah, keep bragging about pelican bay.
"
Post by: bradensmith on August 08, 2004, 01:54:00 AM
In response to the last poster... What the hell are you talking about? I was on probation when i left for RMA, although the courts did not send me there. Honestly, I would sure as hell rather have been placed there by the courts then to have the feeling that my parents betrayed me my first 3 months. Do me a favor and think before you post. thats all I am going to say.
This is to the poster that said they had sent there child there and they had a good experience. I just got back from a visit to RMA. I went to watch a couple of my friends stand on stage and graduate because, they are my friends and I was there to support them. The things i saw that RMA was doing was awesome. In my mind, I wouldn't change anything. There are no longer any clothing agreements (for the most part.) The kids can have there skateboards for a pastime, and the have a PS2 and everything. It looks to me like things are going pretty well out there. The propheets are almost all out the door which could be a good or bad thing depending on how you look at it. The truth is, at RMA, right now things are going great. If you would like to ask me more specific questions please, feel free to e-mail me at Braden_252@hotmail.com I would love to answer some questions. Oh, and the most important thing about it all is, the kids at RMA right now seem happy which, let me tell you was not the feeling i got when i left 4 months ago.
I am tired im gonna hit the sack.
Oh yea and to this SON OF SERBIA, E-mail me, i will give you my adress, im not hiding behind any computer. Listen man you ruin these boards with your sensless rantings about how bad the school is. Your just a bully man, come to my house i got a spare bed, and I will take you out and buy you a cup of coffee and you can sit and vent all you F**cking want, please dont do it on these boards. Just take a breath and relax a bit bro.
Oh yea, and Bryan Felsher, you are the same man you are the most ridiculous poster on this site. You compared CEDU to Aushwitz what were you thinking, take a history class, and you will learn about some real fucking pain.
AND LISTEN TO SOME PROPHEET MUSIC LOL
Post by: Anonymous on August 08, 2004, 02:13:00 AM
You have to keep training, training, training staff. Staff culture and treatment milieu are the most important things. I believe the power of these places has to do with physically removing a kid from places where he is getting into trouble - neighborhood, friends, etc.
Also, you will want to make sure and keep communication with parents open and often. You want therapists supervising everything. I would not suggest having a set amount of time for the program. Make it individual by kid.
Have a consulting psychologist who is not invested in the business AT ALL to assist in treatment decisions. The problem with these places is that they often do not do this - or if they do, the psychologist is too much involved with them. They might claim that they use the consulting services of the psychologist, but they actually do not - not really. Many of these schools offer too much of an incentive to keep the kid there.
Also, use the angry nature of many of these posts as a guideline - you don't want your kids that angry. Conduct REAL outcome studies. Follow the kids 6 months, 1 year, and 3 years after D/C. Have a neutral, third party conduct the study. Graduate students are perfect for this. If you can get a university faculty member on board, it can be a project they are involved in.
I see a lot of wounded persons on these posts. I've read accounts of poorly-educated, power-hungry staff. I've seen posts here about terrible disrespect for feelings and claims of manipulation. One of the biggest problems with these schools is "manipulation." It seems that often times, kids who are genuinely in pain and want to talk to their parents are labeled as manipulating. Staff education will help eliminate this. When they are ignorant, the word, "manipulate" covers anything they don't like. As administrator of several facilities, I struck that word from our vocabulary. Staff was not to use it. In my professional experience, use of that word has a direct, negative correlation with staff education and sophistication. The less educated the staff, the more they say that a kid is manipulating.
One caution - people who want to work with kids often do have many issues. Teach them about boundaries - educate your staff as to what is appropriate and what is inappropriate self-disclosure. Teach them about development and what behaviors are to be expected. And for heaven sake, keep the education going! I have been administrator of several facilities - I found that educating the staff was one of the most important things I could do. Otherwise, they just go on their own stuff. They may look good in an interview, but when it comes down to it, they might be horrible.
Make sure your staff education always includes role-play. They might look like they understand, but that doesn't mean anything. One thing I did at my facilities was to act really horrible and have them intervene. They were to be kind, empathetic, respectful of my feelings, and NOT condescending. I found this to be a real problem at some of these places. I've served as a consultant, placing kids. The only place I felt completely comfortable about was Yellowstone Boys and Girls Ranch. I've sent several kids there and they have all told me that it saved their lives. I spoke with one last week - I had sent her there five years ago - she said the same thing. The problem with Yellowstone is that it's religious - it's Christian. I am a Jew, so I understand that some people wouldn't want this! However, as far as I'm concerned, it's the best place that I'm aware of.
Arrive, unannounced, at all times of day and night to see what's going on. Sit in on groups. Actively intervene. Train, train, train. I cannot stress this enough.
Write a mission statement and make sure all staff know it. Post it all over the place. Have the words, "respect" and "empathy" in it. Be aware, always aware, that some people who want to work with kids have many issues. They include their own drug history and other acting-out histories. Some kids have abuse issues - coming from abusive homes. If they are not trained like crazy, these problems leak into their work. They see everyone through their own histories. You must train this out of them, as much as possible.
I've seen therapists who had significant issues that leaked into their work and rendered them really inappropriate. I have seen licensed therapists on power trips with kids. I will never, ever understand this - but so many persons who want to work with kids are on power trips. Many seem to be deeply angry and this comes out. Some staff have what I can only describe as a "smart-ass" attitude with these kids. This only serves to escalate the kids' anger.
Beware of staff splitting. Staff splitting is blamed on the kids. This is utter rubbish. Staff splitting is on the staff - always! Strong, emotionally healthy staff don't allow themselves to be split! Staff must feel like a team - you accomplish this with fun staff activities and lots of training. Gee, did I mention training already?
Be ever so careful with admissions. Many of these schools have the wallet admission criteria. Fact is, many of the kids in them don't need to be there. However, I'm a child psychologist. I've seen kids die from their own poor choices. Huffing and club drugs, and gang activity are the main culprits. Some kids are on a path to self-destruction that must be interrupted.
Be aware that after residential, there is a significant period of adjustment. You need a good aftercare program. You need to make the stay as short as possible - you don't want your clients to be completely unable to function afterward.
It's okay to use peer support - that is a very powerful intervention. However, you want to make sure that it's not inappropriate. Don't set up things to that kids are rewarded socially only for coming up with confessions of terrible activities. Such a culture encourages fabrication. You want positive support for positive behaviors.
I would recommend a cognitive/behavioral approach. It has been shown empirically to be the most effective. Add some Carl Rogers and you can have a good program.
Look at the pain and anger in these posts. You are aware, I'm sure, that people who are satisfied with something don't take the effort to go to these bulletin boards. The people here are hurt and angry. Respect their feelings. I've looked at some of your posts and they concern me. You have put a lot of effort into arguing with them, and they have said that you are condescending. I have to agree with that assessment. The apparent effort you put into arguing with them does look like you have a boundary problem. Please take this as it is intended ? to be helpful. If you are in school to be a psychologist, you have been learning about the importance of boundaries. You have looked far too emotionally involved here. Arguing with someone is the least effective way to get them to see things your way. I do hope you seek superior supervision and work on boundaries in your own therapy. Good luck in your endeavors.
Post by: bradensmith on August 08, 2004, 02:21:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on August 08, 2004, 03:07:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-08-07 23:21:00, bradensmith wrote:
"Brialliant post"
Post by: former CEDU therapist on August 08, 2004, 03:53:00 AM
I hope you'll listen to what some of these ex-CEDU kids are telling you and not just the ones who say what you want to hear. Everyone here has something to say.
Okay, guys. I know you're all mad at this Ottawa person. But she's asking what you would change about CEDU. Can you give her some answers?
Quote
On 2004-08-07 20:43:00, ottawa5 wrote:
"To the last two posters:
How to improve on the current CEDU program, this is my question. My son went to RMA, he had a good experience, and his life is better for going there, but I hear these stories here at this site, some of them really awful.
What would you do to change CEDU, that's what I want to do, to keep what is positive, and still to get rid of what has the potential to hurt people?
My son says that he wouldn't change any of it, but maybe his experience was just lucky, with good friends and staff, I want other opinions too, what would you change?
My present idea is it has to do with hiring kind, sensitive people who can be strong too and not letting in kids who are not suited to the program (with certain psychological conditions I'm thinking), but I'd like more opinions.
"
Post by: mikehunt on August 08, 2004, 04:41:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-08-08 00:53:00, former CEDU therapist wrote:
"Ottawa, read the anonymous post responding to your query. It lays out everything. Some kids literally die from their choices, but other kids don't really need these placements. Also, it seems that these different CEDU schools vary from each other - maybe a lot.
I hope you'll listen to what some of these ex-CEDU kids are telling you and not just the ones who say what you want to hear. Everyone here has something to say.
Okay, guys. I know you're all mad at this Ottawa person. But she's asking what you would change about CEDU. Can you give her some answers?Quote"
On 2004-08-07 20:43:00, ottawa5 wrote:
"To the last two posters:
How to improve on the current CEDU program, this is my question. My son went to RMA, he had a good experience, and his life is better for going there, but I hear these stories here at this site, some of them really awful.
What would you do to change CEDU, that's what I want to do, to keep what is positive, and still to get rid of what has the potential to hurt people?
My son says that he wouldn't change any of it, but maybe his experience was just lucky, with good friends and staff, I want other opinions too, what would you change?
My present idea is it has to do with hiring kind, sensitive people who can be strong too and not letting in kids who are not suited to the program (with certain psychological conditions I'm thinking), but I'd like more opinions.
"
here's what i'd do to change cedu:
stop being deceitful to acquire students and keep them in the program; stop using the term "therapy" to describe disciplinary tactics. or perhaps start using therapy instead.
in order to be therapeutic, the skool must adjust their methods for each individual student. how to heal the students: get creative counselors with a genuine desire to help change these kids' mentalities to something that'll be more beneficial to them.
also, many of the kids at cedu are not prepared for the type of treatment they receive; it's sort of shocking for many. luckily for your son, he was (or at least he allowed himself to go along with it once he was immersed in it.) others have no idea what's being shot at them, and so they're left to defend themselves in whichever ways they can (for some people, this means taking their own life before they allow someone else to ruin it.) the resolution goes back to the whole ethical therapy thing... personal needs have to be taken into consideration for optimal results. sensitive and creative staff members are necessary to perform therapeutic duties.. this means that the counselors would have to adapt the program to each individual so that these people would actually let their defenses down and receive something that's being offered to them.
it's about ethical manipulation... (there's a fine line between ethical and unethical manipulation.. if the spoken and unspoken agenda is to unleash another's personal creativity, it's undubitably ethical. trying to program a batch of moral robots is dehumanizing; that it is no longer an act of love, and consequently, it is not ethical)
i had to learn my own lessons the hard way (through my defiance). on the other hand, most of the lessons which cedu deliver are pretty mundane and simple... nothing too profound or groundbreaking.
they need to change their focus. cedu should teach more about individuality; getting to know YOUR brain, how it functions, how to werk with it, how to reprogram it yourself. now THAT is headsplitting, groundbreaking shit.[ This Message was edited by: mikehunt on 2004-08-08 01:44 ][ This Message was edited by: mikehunt on 2004-08-13 20:46 ]
Post by: ottawa5 on August 08, 2004, 10:44:00 AM
If you don't mind, I'll email in a week or so, I'd like to have my son (he's travelling right now) to be in on the discussions, since he was there too, and has insights that I don't.
But one more question--what do you think can be done about what some posters call the "coercive" aspects of these schools?
In our own case, my son would never have gone if we hadn't physically taken him there. But what else is a parent supposed to do if an underage kid is relentlessly getting involved with criminal, not to mention, physically dangerous activities? I just didn't have the heart to let him go out into the world in the hopes that he would "bottom out" before he killed himself, and anyway, we had legal responsibilties to him as a minor.
My question, what alternatives do you see to forcing a kid to attend one of these schools--are there any that occur to you out of your own experience?
Here is the thing: I really want to do this right if I do start a school or even take part in one, so believe me, I appreciate all the input, positive, and negative, too. I intend to, and hope I can, use it all to do good, in one way or another.
Post by: mad on August 08, 2004, 11:30:00 AM
It was a humiliating experience to be publicly plucked out of my life against my will and forcibly transported to RMA. However, I don't know of any alternative that would have ended with me being at the school.
The only thing that I wish my mother and stepmother had done differently was to be absent when I was picked up. They watched me be "taken" from a safe distance of a parking lot away through the windows of their car. The power dynamics of that moment were unnecessarily painful. It was clear that my mother was taking control, but there was something sadistic in having her watch. I tried to revisit this with her years later but her perception of that moment as a mother is very different than mine. She had wanted to be sure that it worked and had wanted to have a sense of closure over the drama in which we had been living. While I appreciate that, I still wish that she had put my needs for some privacy during a humiliating moment before her own needs for emotional containment.
Best, Mark
_________________
on the road of experience...[ This Message was edited by: mad on 2004-08-08 08:31 ][ This Message was edited by: mad on 2004-08-08 08:33 ]
Post by: Anonymous on August 08, 2004, 11:31:00 AM
Also: I think it is better to talk to kids in a direct way, not assaulting them...
The other problem I've heard from a lot of kids is that they were so insulated with all the lingo, lack of contact, lack of media (which is a mixed bag), etc. they were unprepared to deal with real world. Instead of forming their own values and letting others have theirs, they formed CEDU values. Mnay kids I talked to said they learned how to work hard but not deal with real world.
Also, many had problems with oversharing on some level and complete distrust of authority on others. (Because many staff at CEDU were not honest either with parents or with us.)
Also, the bans were sometimes ridiculous. One girl was banned from the sun. If a girl was beautiful, she was treated like crap even if she didn't warrant it and was banned from all guys. Bans shouldn't be totally ridiculously arbitrary or they lose their credibility.
Also, staff shouldn't call you names or say you were a slut for having sex before, or a junkie because you smoked pot, or make you feel dirty in the process of "empowering" you. They also shouldn't use traumatic experiences against you.
Thta's all for now.
Post by: ottawa5 on August 08, 2004, 12:25:00 PM
I am ashamed to say that it wasn't a big deal for me at the time, partly because I felt so personally humiliated and exhausted by what we'd been through for a couple of years--it was only later that I came to understand how hard the whole thing was on my child too.
My son doesn't blame us now but I kind of wish there was a better way, especially when I hear your emotionally graphic description of how it felt to you. Even for those of us who didn't use escorts, there is a power dynamic there that is just unkind. Maybe even a dynamic that at least approaches sadistic, as you say.
What would be that better way? I mean, would it really be better to put the decision to send the kid to a school, in the hands of the courts or social services, rather than in the hands of the parents? Wouldn't that have its own problems?
If any ideas do occur to you, I would appreciate hearing them, I also want to talk to you more later, when my son is back in town.
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on August 08, 2004, 12:52:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on August 08, 2004, 01:11:00 PM
It's always painful to watch someone you love make mistakes and suffer the consequences. But that's just part of life. The answer to your question; what can be done about kids who (you are convinced) need help but who won't accept it is nothing! You can offer, you can demonstrate that your love for them is unconditional by never withdrawing it or threatening to. And you can have a little more faith in your own kid to, eventually, sort things out than in some stranger who thinks they know better.
A therapeutic relationship must be based on trust. Coercion destroys trust. If there is coercion, then whatever it is you may be trying to do, it is NOT therapy!
A multitude of laws in a country is like a great number of physicians, a sign of weakness and malady.
--Voltaire, philosopher (1694-1778)
Post by: Anonymous on August 08, 2004, 01:17:00 PM
As it turns out, CEDU was absolutely the wrong place for me, and I've listed many reasons on other posts. The root of the problem was never uncovered, and the staff were not honest in their dealings with me or my parents. I really did need help but CEDU did not provide it. I wasn't a liar or a manipulator or a drug addict and I didn't appreciate being treated like one. Also the bullying and the taunts and the weird lingo were not helpful at all. If anyone had treated me like an individual or directed treatment in a way to fortify your self esteem instead of tearing it down, it would have helped. I also needed better schooling than the joke that was offered as academics. (This may have changed over the past 10+ years--I hope so.)
Post by: ottawa5 on August 08, 2004, 01:59:00 PM
I would like to hear from CEDU grads or attendees on this subject: would it have been better if your parents had told you that no one can tell the future, and that you should make your own mistakes.
Was being forced to go to these schools, either by escort or by obeying your parents due to the power differential, worse than having been allowed to make your own mistakes in the way you were living at the time.
I kind of know how people who had a straigt-out awful experience feel about this, but I would like to hear from people who think that CEDU helped them in some way: was the loss of liberty, at least temporarily, in being sent there, worth it?[ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-08-08 11:00 ]
Post by: Deborah on August 08, 2004, 02:02:00 PM
My suggestion is that you should give up the notion of ?helping? teens, creating an institution to churn out cookie-cutter teens. Instead, you should hold large parenting seminars to train parents on how to set up a BM program right in the comfort of their own homes. While it would require some effort on their part, they should be reminded of the obvious benefits of this option.
You could then lay out the particulars for setting up such an environment:
Their teen would not be allowed to participate in normal teen activities; in fact, the teen would not be allowed outside the house. Of course, they would be forbidden from learning to drive. They would wear a uniform daily. Individuality must be forsaken for ?mental health?. Iron bars would be installed on all windows. They would not be allowed contact with extended family members, friends, or anyone on the outside; and would have very limited contact with other household members, until the parent had determined that they had obtained a certain level of compliance- no complaining to people outside the household about what was happening. The teen would have no access to a phone, computer or any form of media. Install a security system and surveillance cameras if necessary. Hire a goon to stand guard when you can?t be there and to transport the teen to AA three times a week. Education would be self-instructional. Set up an isolation room to be used as punishment for violation of intentionally irrational rules or for real or perceived attempts to escape. Require the teen to watch motivational speakers or religious zealots. The teen would eat frozen meals and take those meals separate from the family. The teen would have to ask permission to visit the toilet and would be allowed only 3 showers per week, supervised of course. Toiletries and condiments would have to be earned. The teen would not take part in family discussions, activities, outings or vacations. On a daily basis, and for hours on end, the teen would stand in front of other family members who would hurl obscenities at them, rage at them for the ?trouble and embarrassment? they?d caused the family. They would be drilled daily on how a model citizen must think and behave. In addition, the teen would be required to listen to their parents describe their past sexual histories in detail and be required to divulge their own. If the teen became too obstinate or otherwise demonstrated resistant to the BM conditioning, parents would instruct their hired goon to PT them in the blazing sun until they were too exhausted to complain.
There are so many particulars, I?m sure I?ve missed some. But that?s a good starting point.
This approach would save parents a boat load of money and work as a possible deterrent for younger children in the family who witnesses the conditioning of their older sibling(s). And the parents could almost be guaranteed forgiveness in the future, provided they ever come to their senses. It is much easier for a kid to forgive a parent for abusing them, than to forgive a parent for hiring it done.
Post by: ottawa5 on August 08, 2004, 02:42:00 PM
I'd be against a school that operated on the basis of turning out "cookie-cutter" people, on that we agree completely. The people that I've heard from here, who all went to CEDU schools seem to be very different from each other.
Where we disagree, I'm guessing is on whether some of the techiques used at these schools are helpful and needed. And also whether sometimes a parent has to resort to sending a kid to a emotional growth school. Am I correct that you would say "Never" while I would say "Sometimes, after every at-home alternative is tried"?
Listen, if you happen to send me any response and I don't reply I'm not blowing you off, as you have thought sometimes. My schedule is such that sometimes I can be around computers a lot, other times, not. Today is an away-from-the-computer day from here on in.
Post by: Antigen on August 08, 2004, 02:52:00 PM
When the government's boot is on your throat, whether it is a left boot or a right boot is of no consequence.
-- Gary Lloyd
Post by: bradensmith on August 08, 2004, 03:02:00 PM
Post by: Deborah on August 08, 2004, 03:25:00 PM
No parent has 'tried everything'- not one. That is a gross exaggeration, and commonly used to justify out-of-home placements. Parents haven't created the environment I described above in their own homes. If a parent could accomplish the same results at home, employ the same 'techniques', why wouldn't they? It's easier to hire it done?
Therefore the industry is but a service for parents. And you hope to profit from providing that service.
Yes, the posters here have different personalities and experiences with their programs. Doesn't deny the fact that the goal of the facility was to create cookie cutter teens. To indoctrinate the teens with their brand of morals and values and perceptions of reality.
Given that parents are going to continue to take the easy was out- the very least you could do is set up a democratic, nurturing, and enriching environment in which the teens decide how they will live together, negotiating agreements (real agreements, not 'rules' presented as agreements), i could go on... but in a nutshell, an enviroment based on respect.
Post by: former CEDU therapist on August 08, 2004, 05:02:00 PM
NO kid is going to go along with going to a placement facility. Why would they? It?s hard enough to get adults to get help. Alcoholics lose homes, jobs, and families, but keep on drinking. How do you get someone with terrible judgment problems to make good decisions? You can?t. I?ve been to too many funerals of bright young people with promise to think that you have to ask them nicely if they want to go.
The key is knowing who really needs it. That?s the issue. Also, as has been mentioned in these posts, decent academics would make a big difference. And number one ? decent, kind staff who don?t think that they are supposed to tear a kid down and rebuild him. All you get with that is a wounded, angry soul.
Quote
On 2004-08-08 07:44:00, ottawa5 wrote:
"Thanks, this is exactly the type of thing I am trying to learn. Thanks to the "anonymous" poster too.
If you don't mind, I'll email in a week or so, I'd like to have my son (he's travelling right now) to be in on the discussions, since he was there too, and has insights that I don't.
But one more question--what do you think can be done about what some posters call the "coercive" aspects of these schools?
In our own case, my son would never have gone if we hadn't physically taken him there. But what else is a parent supposed to do if an underage kid is relentlessly getting involved with criminal, not to mention, physically dangerous activities? I just didn't have the heart to let him go out into the world in the hopes that he would "bottom out" before he killed himself, and anyway, we had legal responsibilties to him as a minor.
My question, what alternatives do you see to forcing a kid to attend one of these schools--are there any that occur to you out of your own experience?
Here is the thing: I really want to do this right if I do start a school or even take part in one, so believe me, I appreciate all the input, positive, and negative, too. I intend to, and hope I can, use it all to do good, in one way or another. "
Post by: Anonymous on August 08, 2004, 06:52:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 08, 2004, 07:23:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 08, 2004, 07:42:00 PM
Post by: oh shizzle son on August 08, 2004, 09:12:00 PM
next thing you know im slammed into a car and i still have no idea what the hell is going on...
next thing you know im at Ascent still wearing my boxers and a wife beater...what a day
my point is, i had no cluw what was going on the escorts posted as cops and showed no badge and wouldnt let me ask any questions and on top of that i went the whole day from 4 am to about 5-6 with no food besides water and was served an ascent meal...which is horseshit anyways...
that was my experience with escorting
Post by: Anonymous on August 08, 2004, 09:25:00 PM
If your folks said hey we think you are f*&^ed up and we don't know what to do about it so we want to take you to a therapeutic wilderness program/boarding school would you have gone?
I hate the idea of escort (and I'm not nuts about most of these programs), but did your parents wimp out or did they see it as a necessary evil? I know of a couple of girls at CEDU who were escorted and they did not need to be at all...it was a total humiliation for them.
The most shocking day of my life was going to CEDU and going into a rap I could not believe the shit I ws hearing!
Post by: bradensmith on August 08, 2004, 10:10:00 PM
Post by: Antibody? on August 09, 2004, 01:35:00 AM
You can't get real with a kid without communication on a more personal level than force. What ever happened to compassion?
I continue to see kids come out of CEDU burning with anger, shivering with fear, and, with no idea who they are or how to care for themselves.
They can't apply for jobs, work, relate to real problems and live with people rationally. Their soul has been broken. Their life has been the institution. Their God a machine that throws a tray of food in front of them. No wonder they are lost in a matrix.
It is correct that parents pay to have the job of raising their kid done by someone else, someone without attachment to anything but a paycheck - and a feeling of ritiousnes.
Staff, - These people are rescures of inauthenticity and legends in their own minds. In reality, they are empty, nothing without that false praise used by the system to enable their hidden arrogance.
They are nothing trying to be something - at your, and your parents' expence.
As for escorts - damn the escorts. They are maggots, leaches, sell-outs.
Post by: mad on August 09, 2004, 07:26:00 AM
As I mentioned in my first post on this string, I am also sure that there is nothing that my parents could have done that would have convinced me to go to RMA of my own volition. They tried and I choose leaving home over going ? I had been 16 at the time. While I wish that my parents had not watched me get taken away by the bounty hunters they hired, their having me forcibly picked up was a last resort. I had dropped out of school, was living on the street, and knowingly putting myself in harms way.
Given the other posts on this topic I also want to give voice to something that is perhaps obvious to some but maybe news to others whose situations were different than my own. One of the best things about going to RMA was that it got me away from my parents and my home environment. While my parents truly did the best that they could to parent me, they were pretty limited folks in what they had to offer and teach me. Their needs not mine, had always come first. In many ways, they were as out of control as I had been and on some level knew that they couldn?t help me anymore.
Best, M
Post by: Anonymous on August 09, 2004, 10:02:00 AM
My problem with CEDU-RS, at least, was not that my feelings got hurt in a few raps. My problem was the unethical treatment, substandard academics, abusive and dishonest raps, the group mentality, the insulated environemnt, teh unqualified staff, the atmosphere of bullying, and the fact that most of the "tools" were not really portable to the real world.
Post by: Anonymous on August 09, 2004, 10:08:00 AM
4 expulsions. I was made a ward of the court then legally a ward of CEDU school. The only reason I didn't split was I thought at the time I had much more freedom then in Juvenile Hall which was my option if I didn't follow the rules. I wish I had went to Juvenile hall instead. There were far less repercusions and I'd rather explain THAT to people then CEDU.
Post by: Anonymous on August 09, 2004, 11:40:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on August 09, 2004, 12:25:00 PM
Kids deserve more rights. I deserved more rights.
Post by: Anonymous on August 09, 2004, 12:40:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 09, 2004, 01:30:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 09, 2004, 02:30:00 PM
Post by: oh shizzle son on August 09, 2004, 03:35:00 PM
Is CEDU really shutting down?
i loved the post (an older one) antibody and when i read it i immediately called Gabe and told him you wrote about him....that was meainingful and im glad you still keep those thoughts on mind..or in the heart. if you dont know who this is (id like to stay anon to some people) i sat in on some sessions with you and gabe mostly but with alix and evan as well....it was just fun to listen to your theories and i can tell now how commited you are to actually helping people
also saw your website http://www.abchange.com (http://www.abchange.com) love the idea of encompassing the environment, im going up to bellingham soon to visit some friends BW and gabe i cant wait
if you want or have time e-mail me RJOsiris1@aol.com, itd be nice to talk to you since my old therapist im sure you know who he was doesnt respond to me......typical, although hes a great guy
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 09, 2004, 04:34:00 PM
.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-09 13:35 ]
Post by: bradensmith on August 09, 2004, 05:32:00 PM
Im glad you calmed down a bit. The truth is, if what your trying to accomplish is to get CEDU shut down this board could be a powerful place, although that is not what I am about. I had some of the worst times and best times of my life at that school, and the truth is, it all evens out for me at least. Anyways man, my offer from page 5 is still up if you want to talk or whatever. E-mail me, lemme get your number, ill call you we will chat, if you want. Take care man
-Braden
BE
Post by: ottawa5 on August 09, 2004, 09:26:00 PM
And not only were we, in my child's case, part of the problems that my son was having, but, sadly, there was no way, absolutely no way, pre-emotional growth, that anyone could have convinced me of that.
I remember sitting with some socialite from New York, at the beginning of our first (required) parent workshop; we both sort of quietly made fun of the whole thing, one more "silly" little ritual that our children's misbehavior was making us go through.
After all (this was our reasoning at the time) we were successful, high achieving, rule-following people-- could there really be anything significant wrong with us?
Surely my son was the problem, this was my thinking when we sent him to RMA.
I just did not, and could not, understand that all of my own future direction, my resilience against anything that stood in my way, had the effect of minimizing and even trivializing the emotional struggles in which he was engaged.
I have to give CEDU parent programs credit for waking me up. I can remember the exact moment, in a parent workshop, when I realized that we, he and I, were in this together.
At that point, it could no longer be denied, that I had not done the things I should have to help him face the challenges that (divorce of his father, several relocations, a remarriage) that my choices had dictated that he should have to face.
It is so amazing that our experiences with CEDU, my son's and my own, continue to allow us to have a sort of a common language in how we face what life throws at us.
To the poster "mad", maybe your parents didn't get as much out of the program as I did, from your comments at least, but they obviously cared a lot about you, I mean, they could have just left you on the streets.
Someone here, I forget who, sort of mocked me for saying that the fact that parents would intervene and pay a whole lot of money to send a child to a program like CEDU could reflect their love of their child. But I think that it's true: it is certainly limited, but it is love, nonetheless to do whatever you are capable of doing for your child.
Post by: mad on August 09, 2004, 10:08:00 PM
My moms -- as an aside, my father and stepfather had both died shortly before I went to RMA -- got something out of the parent workshops I?m sure. They were totally RMAed parents and spoke at parent conferences etc. They did what they could to be supportive of me (which relative to my peers was a lot), but my experience was that they were supportive of me ?doing my work? and getting fixed (or in the least to stop making decisions that scared the shit out of them). Their support was about making me into someone whom they could feel good about again. Oddly, their support of me was about them. It was a fine tact to take I suppose, but it ultimately did not bring us closer because it was exactly the role that I had had since my earliest memories.
My mom acknowledged very early on at RMA that she believed that she contributed to my presenting problems. It was all very cerebral though and lacked any real insight or change on her part. She just wasn't ready to see I suppose. In any case, when I left RMA it became very clear that there were strong strings attached to ?good? (e.g., who she thought I should be) behavior and to playing the role that she needed in her life. We ended up parting company for five years. Having lost a parent I decided that I could live with that as a worst-case scenario and having her in my life was worse than losing her altogether.
We reconciled three years ago and to her credit, she did a lot of growing up while we were apart and since we have come back together. While I know that I have matured a tremendous amount too, the difference in her is most recognizable. She is not a core support in my life, but I do enjoy spending time in her company now (and that is huge). I am also very careful where she is concerned and spend a lot of time being mindful about my boundaries with her ? not one of her competencies.
Long story short, RMA helped to brake up some truly caustic stuff in my family and also helped me to feel competent in the world. I was able to walk away from my family because at some level I knew that I didn?t need them to survive anymore. I knew that I would be OK, and for me, that was a big step toward taking my place in the adult world. What it didn?t help me with was teasing out how to come back together. I have found RMA lessons to be great for binary thinking and very limited for more complex decisions and relationships.
Best, M
Post by: ottawa5 on August 09, 2004, 10:35:00 PM
One of the themes of some workshop or other was "loving the child you have, not the one you would have chosen", something like that.
That was really true for me, my son is a great person but he is a wild risk-taker, not like my other children who are more measured, more goal oriented, more, in short, like me.
But if you accept the child you have, doesn't that mean that you have to accept that child's (the one you actually have) hopes and dreams, even if they might not have been the ones that you would have chosen if you were in charge.
A pitfall I found with the RMA stuff that I learned as a parent was that it is so easy to sort of idealize the concepts presented, to believe that you have found this meaning, and to leave it at that. The hard part is to find out how these ideas fit into your own life, where do you go with them in the real world.
It doesn't help that in my situation at least, there are few people who even understand what I am talking about when I refer to things like "emotional growth", except my son, and he has his own experiences to go through, I really don't feel like I should overwhelm him with my personal growth.
Post by: oh shizzle son on August 10, 2004, 12:53:00 AM
good times
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 10, 2004, 08:46:00 AM
. [ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-10 09:45 ][ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-10 09:46 ]
Post by: oh shizzle son on August 10, 2004, 02:14:00 PM
make one for when we need to bitch each other out
another one for ways to change or shut down CEDU
and another one on how to publicize the ideas and get our pounts across OUTSIDE of this forum...because my thought is is has a pretty shitty reputation now from people like Ottawa...BOO! but im not underminding those who have made there mark here
Post by: bradensmith on August 10, 2004, 09:28:00 PM
Hey Son of Serbia, to be honest it was a little more of A...... JUST KIDDING Anyways man thanks for hitting me back and, I am glad we cleaned up this thread a little bit. I am also glad that you havn't changed your feelings about CEDU either, to be honest, at this point if this forum influenced people I would be scared to go to bed at night. Anyways fellas take care. Oh SHIZZLE and thats for sure man this thread is on FIRE! 
Post by: oh shizzle son on August 11, 2004, 02:54:00 PM
Fuck Propheets, what a big waste of fucking time
Post by: bradensmith on August 11, 2004, 04:54:00 PM
Thankyou for what you said, I will take that as a compliment. Oh and watch what you say about the propheet music "LOL".... I saved the link.
[ This Message was edited by: bradensmith on 2004-08-11 13:57 ]
Post by: Anonymous on August 11, 2004, 07:35:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 11, 2004, 07:46:00 PM
Post by: oh shizzle son on August 11, 2004, 09:06:00 PM
Get The Fuck Out Anon and your a hypocrite too you stupid fuck, bitching about someone bitching..wow grow up bitch....
Anyways heres my originally planned post until anon came and fucked things up...we all just made peace..damn terrorist anon!!
Original Post: im making school threads so post anything relevant to the school there..it may help for quick referencing and so this site comes up faster on searches!!
oh and by the way ANON i made it to CANADA so FUCK OFF about your little week long LA trips, i crossed an International Boundary and could have gone to Federal Prison......if i would have gotten caught....hahaha. and also it was on september 27th 2001, right after 9/11. Could we have been more stupid? *kin and hynes one love*
[ This Message was edited by: on 2004-08-11 18:20 ]
Post by: Anonymous on August 12, 2004, 01:49:00 AM
peace dunny
Karl Khunive
:skull:
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 12, 2004, 10:06:00 AM
Your calling me a bitch, and yet, you don't even have the balls to post a user name you lowlife piece of shit. Oh shizzle son is right, this thread is closing down, why don't you do us all a favor and close down with it, or go back to
sucking dick at pelican bay or cya, or wherever it was that you became addicted to sperm, you cock sucking freak!
Post by: Anonymous on August 12, 2004, 11:15:00 AM
you tell me you love me when you're looking away
no more words
and no promises of love
Post by: bradensmith on August 12, 2004, 05:12:00 PM
Post by: ehm on August 12, 2004, 05:39:00 PM
You don't get everything you want. A dictatorship would be a lot
easier.
--GW Büsh, Governor of Texas. Governing Magazine, 7/98
Post by: Anonymous on August 12, 2004, 11:01:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 12, 2004, 11:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-12 14:12:00, bradensmith wrote:
"Serbia, Whoever said you were a moron was right man. If your so great and independant why don't you talk like it. Quit acting like a seventh grader who just cuss's and dosn't make any sense."
Post by: oh shizzle son on August 13, 2004, 01:40:00 AM
its done and over....
Yeah Serb said some shit and most of it was at my expense and i dont need people coming in standing up for me, me and him worked it out so just quit the stupid petty drama...thats a bullshit CEDU game and your all playing it!!
Post by: Anonymous on August 13, 2004, 06:18:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-08-12 22:40:00, oh shizzle son wrote:
"STOP POSTING HERE!!!!
its done and over....
Yeah Serb said some shit and most of it was at my expense and i dont need people coming in standing up for me, me and him worked it out so just quit the stupid petty drama...thats a bullshit CEDU game and your all playing it!!"
Post by: Anonymous on August 13, 2004, 09:07:00 AM
Was a good friend of mine
Never understood a single word he said
But we always had a real fine time
Joy to the World
All the Boys and Girls
Joy to the Fishies in the Deep Blue Sea
Joy to You and Me!
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 13, 2004, 09:15:00 AM
And don't tell me I'm making this up, I was in serbia not 3 months after the Nato Bombing, I saw what they bombed with my own eyes. Nato did this in defence of muslim terrorists in Kosovo. In fact Hasim Tachi (the leader of the Terrorist Kosovo Liberation army) and several of his top officers recieved their training in Al Queda training Camps in Algeria. They were funded entirely by by Saudi Arabian Terror Groups, as well as the Albanian Mafia. That's what Bill Clinton and our racist Anon friend are supporting.
Clinton did the same thing in Bosnia, which is now flooded with muhajadeen in the Muslin/Croat half of the country. the Muslim president
of bosnia during the war was Alija Izebegovic,a
career long Hard Core Islamist who wrote a book during the 70's outlining his detailed plan of attack to create a pan islamic state stretching from the balkans to indonesia. He was a collegue
and ally of OSAMA BIN LADEN, and he even Issued Bin Laden an honorary bosnian passport 1993.
Yes the wars that destroyed our country (yugoslavia) were filled with horrible atrocities, that were committed by ALL SIDES, Serbs, Croats, Bosnian Muslims, Albanians are all guilty, and so are the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND NATO. Unfortunately the Hague tribunal is primarily funded by the US and Nato Countries, so some of the wars biggest criminals (bill clinton, madeline albright,& wesly clark)will never face justice. Aparrantly Kosovo albanians are also getting a free pass, even though they have run a systematic campaign of murder, church burnings,ethnic cleansing, and terror for the last 5 years, under Nato and UN occupation, which most of the mainstream media has completely ignored. (conincidently the albanians have been doing this to serbs for the last 30 years in Kosovo, which is what led serbia to crack down on them in the first place). Of course our racist Anon friend will never agree with me, perhaps he is a muslim terrorist sympathizer himself.
As for brandon, you know i really thought you were alright, perhaps I was mistaken. Call me a
moron if you want pal, but you just sided with a racist, so what does that make you?
Thanks for speaking out on my behalf Oh Shizzle Son. You really are a stand up guy, and I'm sorry about all the nasty things I said to you before. I was completely wrong for what I said about you, and I'm glad that we could patch things up and move on, thanks pal.
Post by: Anonymous on August 13, 2004, 11:06:00 AM
And you're going to tell people "STOP POSTING HERE", you're going to tell people what thread is ending and what thread you want them posting on?
Everyone who cares about Shittle Son's approval put up their hands---oh I guess you missed a majority by a few, little guy
See I read your posts,you came here and like any privileged brat you tried to glomm onto somebody with half a clue, brandensmith, at least he's got some technosmarts and the pyrotechnics are fun to see
So you glom onto him, try to act like you and your smart bud are in charge here?
Loser forget it we post where we want around here
Post by: Anonymous on August 13, 2004, 11:26:00 AM
When the bee stings
When I'm feeling sad
I simply remember my favorite things
And tehn I don't feeeeeeeeel so bad
Post by: Antigen on August 13, 2004, 12:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-13 03:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
I was going at it with him long before you showed up. People from Serbia are arrogant and guilty of attempted genocide and I will never stop so get used to it.
You don't know that. You might just as well go and harass the Amish for what the Nazis did as try and blame Son of Serbia for what Melosivic allegedly did. Bear in mind that Slobodon was essentially the same rank and designation as Sadam as regards his relationship w/ US intelligence.
"If you don't sign the paper, then we can't bomb Serbia!" (pounding the desk) They don't call here Madaline "Mad Cow" Albright for nothing!
I have some fairly interesting material on the topic of modern Serbian history. If ya'll really want to tear into it, post to Tacitus' Realm.
Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.
--Julius Caesar
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
It is wrong to leave a stumbling block in the road once it has tripped you.
Post by: bradensmith on August 13, 2004, 01:26:00 PM
Ok Serbia,
If you had taken a closer look, the post when i called you a moron was before the racist comments. I am probobly one of the least racist people to step foot on this planet man. I would never stand by a racist or anyone who denies someone based on their country of origin or the color of there skin. I personally thought that we had all this cleared up, but then you started cussing again, and making usless attacks (No offense.) If my comment of calling you a second grader and a moron offended you I am deeply sorry, and i can assure you that it will not happen again. I would personally like to be done with all of this but, if there is anything that we need to speak of further, post a messege on my website braden_252@hotmail.com (http://mailto:braden_252@hotmail.com) or just keep this thread going. Again I am sorry.
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 13, 2004, 03:05:00 PM
Post by: oh shizzle son on August 13, 2004, 04:49:00 PM
And who are you? maybe you if you grew some hair on your nuts you could get a name and drop the ANON because if your gonna talk shit under ANON then you really really must be a half-brained nutless fuck
Post by: Anonymous on August 13, 2004, 05:07:00 PM
This Thread could be useful for shutting down a gulag - but no - you all just use it to bitch each other out. There is a thread for that. Take your bruised egos and go there.
Some of us have a reason to be here.
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 13, 2004, 05:08:00 PM
.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-13 14:13 ]
Post by: oh shizzle son on August 13, 2004, 06:28:00 PM
THANK YOU!
AMEN!
Post by: Anonymous on August 13, 2004, 06:34:00 PM
Ain't no big surprise
Pour me a drink
And I'll tell you some lies
Yesterday's news
So I'll just sing the blues
All the time...
Post by: Anonymous on August 13, 2004, 10:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-13 14:08:00, SON OF SERBIA wrote:
"AMEN TO THAT, SHIZZ! If these idiots had any balls they would at least identify themselves, instead of taking these cowardly pot shots at you and me! (see Brandon, I said cowardly this time, and not pussy, i'm really trying here!)
.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-13 14:13 ]"
Post by: Oppositional Defiance on August 13, 2004, 10:16:00 PM
Post by: bradensmith on August 14, 2004, 01:03:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on August 14, 2004, 04:15:00 PM
This site makes me puke, little princes mostly who've screwed up so bad, they get a big expensive chance up in the mountains somewhereinstead of in Juvey like the rest of us would, and theyr'e still whining and moaning about it decades later becuase some counselor didn't realize what important little royalty they supposedly are
Grow up fool, i know one kid to went to a school like this, I thought it was called Polar Creek but maybe it was Boulder Creek like you talk about here. His parents mortaged their damn house to send him he's doing good and I never heard him whining like this place
Be thankful you prissy losers say thanks to your parents they didn't see what losers you are and just kick you to the curb and maybe give thier $$$ to someone who would appreciate it
Post by: Antigen on August 14, 2004, 04:58:00 PM
Take, for example, those kids who disclose sensitive issues on the promise of getting help. (some kids really do buy in or give in in a weak moment) Then, instead of getting help or good advice or whatever w/ their problems, they are further humiliated and bullied w/ this very private, sensitive information.
And afterward, their own parents won't believe them, will accuse them of "manipulation", even disown them if they insist on telling the truth about their experience.
I'm glad you came out of it intact. But some people didn't. It takes a thousand voices to tell just one story.
Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundation, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America.
James Madison
Post by: oh shizzle son on August 15, 2004, 01:12:00 AM
your friends parents were chossing to have there kid abused and tortured while there complaining about a house being mortgaged give me a break...yeah and go on and hang out with your friend whos parents got mindfucked by cedu...
i pity the ignorance man, just pity it with all i got from that damn hood in the woods
Post by: Anonymous on August 16, 2004, 09:45:00 PM
Artie
(BCA 2000-2002)
Post by: ottawa5 on August 16, 2004, 10:02:00 PM
It is as if he has had the experience, he keeps what is meaningful with his friends and with us, and the rest he leaves, without much regret.
It is more complicated for me, because my focus is that I want to open a school that improves on what was good about CEDU. As you might imagine, I have to look into the nuances and the details, I realize that a lot of the people at this site do not see anything good at all in the whole CEDU experience, and I understand that.
But to the current poster, if you could please take the time to reflect on your own personal experience: what was definitely good for you, and what parts of the program would you unequivocally eliminate?
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on August 16, 2004, 10:33:00 PM
p.s. that's a compliment.
We all get a little emotional sometimes.
Post by: Anonymous on August 16, 2004, 10:44:00 PM
I have never thought for a minute that your passionate statements indicate a realistic threat of harm to anyone. You speak like a poet, in abstract symbolic expression sometimes, this may be hazardous in a reality-obsessed world.
I repeat what I said before: if I did start my own school, I would want someone like you on my board of directors to tell me what not to do. On many things we may disagree, but both of us wish to do good and to do no harm.
Hope all is going well for you, good luck.
Post by: ottawa5 on August 16, 2004, 10:45:00 PM
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on August 16, 2004, 10:59:00 PM
We will continue to try and change your mind about CEDU.
You're perspective on me is quite accurate and I appreciate it.
We may always disagree but we should always respect eachother. I appologize for most of my profane language and I'll try to clean it up for you.
Maybe you were more important to this site then I believed at first.
Let's keep the argument going again and try to reach the TRUTH.
Post by: Ottawa2 on August 16, 2004, 11:07:00 PM
I just wanted to say that you are really a very interesting person. I find the contrast between you and my mother to be very interesting.
But you both want good things to happen.
I know that you and others belived that I was not a real person (Example: People saying that I was my mother)But I am real! And I like hearing from people who feel very strongly and genuinely about what matters to them. Although you will continue to try and convice my mother that CEDU is bad and she in turn will try to convince you that it is good, maybe something positive will come out of all of this. :wave:
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on August 16, 2004, 11:12:00 PM
Post by: Ottawa2 on August 16, 2004, 11:20:00 PM
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on August 16, 2004, 11:30:00 PM
And I agree about let's argue and make something good come out of this.
In other words, let's fight and struggle and argue tooth and nail until we come to the TRUTH.
Isn't that all we really want?
Post by: Ottawa2 on August 16, 2004, 11:38:00 PM
I feel that from you I can learn to fight for what I want. I will contiue to read your post and others. Both my mother and I hope that something good will come out of all of this. :wave:
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on August 16, 2004, 11:56:00 PM
She took a very clinical unemotional approach (which is very good sometimes) to what we consider an emotional issue.
However in this case, we simply want it to be understood and accepted at face value that these abuses really did occur and that no amount of positive expectation on other's parts can excuse or minimize the abuse that we ourselves experienced.
So we're not really angry at Ottawa5, I don't think.
I personally am angry at your mother's ideas.
The main thing is the idea that because there were ( I'm sure of it) some positive experiences at CEDU, it could somehow excuse the abuses at CEDU.
There were major abuses at CEDU which you'll see in my posts.
I just want them to answer for those abuses.
Post by: Anonymous on August 17, 2004, 01:09:00 AM
--Shan
Post by: ottawa5 on August 17, 2004, 11:06:00 AM
I never meant to show disrespect for your experience, and I didn't think that I did. If i did, I am very sorry, I shouldn't have.
It sounds like you may think I'm not emotional enough in writing and this seems disrespectful to you. Please keep in mind that this could be more of an individual style and, perhaps, an age difference. Also, as I am a person who isn't really at home in computer communication, this may be part of the problem also.
You are correct, as I recall, you personally have never slammed my "perpective" on CEDU.
And, also, I do believe that there have been abuses, although you and I may not define "abuse" identically and may disagree in individual cases.
The question I am interested in is whether, as you believe, abuses are inevitable in this kind of program or whether, as I hope, there are ways (better staff, some modification of the curriculuum) to guard against them and still retain what I see as the positive parts of the programs (positive on the basis of what others have told me helped them in CEDU programs).
The opinions of you and other posters here have definitely influenced me, especially the idea that this site is special to you and that you are concerned and don't want it used by possible spies from schools and things like that.
I have been trying to sit back and listen, rather than argue, and to respond only when addressed or when I have questions for new posters (I guess I could post Anon to keep my username out of the discussion entirely but I don't like to do that on principle).
So just wanted to clear that up, you have every right to dislike me personally, I find it hard to have "personal" opinions about someone on the basis of a personna presented on an internet site, but that may be an age and computer-experience related thing also.
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on August 17, 2004, 04:05:00 PM
However, I believe that abuse IS inevitable at any CEDU or CEDU-affliated school.
You wouldn't try to reform Abu-Graib. Not even Bush would try.
They just bulldozed it down.
Post by: Antigen on August 17, 2004, 04:35:00 PM
It's no coincidence. The very elements of the Program that proponants say (and often believe) make it effective also set up an environment ripe for all kinds of abuse.
Lord Acton is most frequently credited w/ first putting this aphorism to words; at least first in Anglican words. Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Now, can you concieve of a CEDU w/o the absolute power? What would be left? How would it work? Who would be the target market? Forget the Toughlove hategroups. The primary draw for them seems to be that they can pay someone to do to their children what would be felony child abuse if they did it on their own. So, how, exactly, do you envision the kinder, gentler Chuck E. Diederich Unividrsity?
Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? ... If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?
-- Patrick Henry
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Post by: ottawa5 on August 17, 2004, 06:24:00 PM
I imagine you're aware that a lot of substance treatment programs still use aspects of the old Synanon methodology without adopting the whole program.
That's a pretty common thing, actually for parts of a program to get incorporated into someone else's new idea about how to do things, even when the whole program is seen as objectionable or overboard for some reason. So it's possible that Mel Wasserman, among a whole bunch of other people, looked at parts of Synanon and decided to use what he liked. But I don't know that, it just seems plausible.
On the other hand, other people, for example those who support motivational interviewing, would oppose any part of Synanon, in part for philosophical reasons. When I have a chance, I'll look for any real empirical studies that address effectiveness.
I like Lord Acton, by the way, and power dynamics are always an issue, in any school, relationship or family.
But in my own case, I never experienced CEDU as having "absolute power". On different occasions, I would discuss issues with various decision-makers there and sometimes, I would have to make a decision that was at odds with their advice. One that comes to mind was my decision not to seek extended custody of my child in the Idaho courts. The school accepted my decision, over their recommendations and we went from there.
And tell me more about the "felony child abuse" that I was paying them to inflict on my son in my absence?
My sense, after reading a number of your posts, is that you are a person who is a little further over on the anarchist side of the anarchist-totalitarian dimension than I am.
I value liberty a great deal, I also think that parents have a responsibility to sometimes limit the liberty of their minor children. Do you?
Or are you one of those people who thinks that if a kid is allowed to seek his or her own way, with no holds barred, it'll all end up fine?
I'm wondering if we just disagree on the form of the restraint that is being used here or are you saying that you don't think there should be any coercive restraint at all, regardless of what the minor child is doing to self or others?
Post by: Anonymous on August 17, 2004, 10:46:00 PM
mel wasserman who scammed the brown schools out of 60 million by selling them cedu and remaining as consultants when they knew the place could not legally turn a profit but legal was only something mel cared about when he sue his victims and there parents
thats right if you said anything you were sued and that includes staff. it was to scare you he never went to court because he hated the negative publicity.
Post by: Anonymous on August 18, 2004, 03:42:00 AM
Post by: Antigen on August 18, 2004, 10:20:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-17 15:24:00, ottawa5 wrote:
"I've heard comments here referring to a link between Synanon and CEDU anad I have no other info either to confirm or dispute such a connection.
I imagine you're aware that a lot of substance treatment programs still use aspects of the old Synanon methodology without adopting the whole program.
Yes, and I'm aware that around 1970 or so Bobby DuPont, then head of NIDA, actually advocated replicating Synanon all over the country at public expense. And that Scientology's Narconon was taught in Los Angeles area schools up until recently. Doesn't make it valid.
Maybe that's why government studies into the efficacy of various substance abuse treatment models fail to show any significant benefit to treated populations over that to untreated populations.
Quote
That's a pretty common thing, actually for parts of a program to get incorporated into someone else's new idea about how to do things, even when the whole program is seen as objectionable or overboard for some reason. So it's possible that Mel Wasserman, among a whole bunch of other people, looked at parts of Synanon and decided to use what he liked. But I don't know that, it just seems plausible.
Actually, it seems probable. Still, doesn't mean it's a valid or sensible way to go about things.
Quote
On the other hand, other people, for example those who support motivational interviewing, would oppose any part of Synanon, in part for philosophical reasons. When I have a chance, I'll look for any real empirical studies that address effectiveness.
Please. And, try and find any that include a control group.
Quote
I like Lord Acton, by the way, and power dynamics are always an issue, in any school, relationship or family.
But in my own case, I never experienced CEDU as having "absolute power".
Of course you didn't! You were the one signing the checks! Try being a "student".
Quote
And tell me more about the "felony child abuse" that I was paying them to inflict on my son in my absence?
Just look around at what some of these former students have to tell you. No wonder they get pissed off at you. You seem to just unsee whatever doesn't fit your thesis.
Quote
My sense, after reading a number of your posts, is that you are a person who is a little further over on the anarchist side of the anarchist-totalitarian dimension than I am.
. . .
Try Occam's razor here. Your very interesting analysis of my thinking could, possibly, maybe explain my positions. Or you could take my word for it and accept my reasons for believing as I do.
Quote
I'm wondering if we just disagree on the form of the restraint that is being used here or are you saying that you don't think there should be any coercive restraint at all, regardless of what the minor child is doing to self or others?
Maybe, I don't know. How do you feel about allegedly troubled teens restraining and surveiling other allegedly troubled teens? If you're alright w/ that, then I guess you don't have a problem w/ Charles E. Dederich University.
Locate the blind spot in the culture--the place where the culture isn't looking, because it dare not--because if it were to look there, its previous values would dissolve.
Terence McKenna
Post by: shanlea on August 18, 2004, 11:26:00 PM
The problem with restraints is that they are often used for control when the kid isn't violent but justified anyway. Certainly, if a kid physically charged me, I would want him to be safely apprehended.
None of us can talk about your experience, but many of us talk about ours', which was chock full of verbal abuse and emotional abuse as well as unethical practices, such as lying or scamming.
Also, you sometimes view coersion as necessary in these environments, explaining why children are forced to attend.
The coersion I am talking about (I couldn't imagine hiring a bounty hunter against my sons)is that I was (I'll just speak for me but I saw it profusely)coerced into rewriting my history to their benefit, my parents were coerced into keeping me there with dishonesty, and to break me down they coerced cop outs and confessions to beat me down. All cop outs were reformatted to fit their needs and none involved any behavior where I was a lying jerk off, so basically they voyeuristically used my experiences against me. I also feel it was unfair coersion to be in the wrong placement with them BSing both my parents and me. Another coercive eleemnt is just twisting the story and using that to manipulate you and your peers against you and barraging you in raps.
When it comes to trauma such as rape etc., you should trust the people you are confessing to rather than have them call you names or goad you relentlessly about it.
In addition, in raps and propheets, you were coerced into having--often faking--emotional breakthroughs of epic proportions and you were goaded mercilessly until you did. That is why a lot of kids made false confessions, even to your parents.
Finally, the last coercive element is that the perspective endorsed by CEDU is binary. Everything is black/white according to CEDU and you need to live, think, talk, act, in very narrow constraints. when many of us got out into the real world, we were totally unequipped.
Post by: ottawa5 on August 18, 2004, 11:26:00 PM
Because some people, mostly aging hippies, but others too, do believe that is this case, that you have to always let a kid make his/her own mistakes, however dangerous. Where do you stand on this, I didn't understand from your response.
And don't worry if former students get "pissed off" at me, I'm a big girl and can handle it. The opacity makes me "pissed off" too, sometimes but I get over it.
I think that the people here who I respect understand that I do believe that abuses have occurred, my question, previously stated, but obviously not universally communicated, is how to guard against possible abuse and still keep the parts of the programs that many, many graduates have told me were helpful and even crucial to them when they were students at different CEDU schools.
Post by: shanlea on August 18, 2004, 11:51:00 PM
Parenthood is more difficult than I ever imagined, so I try not to pass judgment. I guess on some level I understand how a parent would fear for their out of control child, especially if he is particularly aggressive or self destructive. In that situation, the parent may opt to have the child forcefully escorted. However, the use of escort have been totally abused in many cases where it was not necessary at all. I couldn't imagine having a young teenager escorted either.
I know one TV personality's daughter ran away and lived on the streets for months in a faraway state. When the mother found out where she was, she was too afraid to give her a chance to run away before she flew in, so she hired a bounty hunter to pick up the daughter. The parent was sincerely afraid she'd lose her again before she got to her and her daughter would persih on the streets.
I don't have all the answers; I don't know how you should deal with a child who violently resists help. Sometimes natural consequences help. If you bail out a kid every time they lie/steal/crash the car/ etc. you will have big problems later.
My older brother actually did get addicted to heroin and lived on the streets for many, many years. He was unsafe to have around. (He would threaten us with knives etc when I was a young girl.) He did everything under the sun to support his habit. My Dad tried to get him help and treatment many times to no avail. So finally he just let him stay on the streets (he was legal age). After many years, he and his girlfriend (now wife) got clean on their own and now are gainfully employed with a nice home and life. They've been sober 17 years; they re-arranged their entire life to avoid things that might trigger a relapse and keep it pretty simple. I don't know how they did it, but they did. And they aren't in N.A.
I could not honestly say that any type of coersion is absolutely wrong, but I've always been uncomfortable with this method.
Post by: Antigen on August 19, 2004, 12:04:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-08-18 20:26:00, ottawa5 wrote:
"That is, do you or don't you believe that sometimes parents have to use coercive measures in terms of their minor children?
It depends on what you mean by coercion. Do you mean "Get home by curfew or you'll be grounded"? Sure, that's acceptable. But also contingent on the kid submiting to being grounded. Or do you mean "Admit to being a worthless piece of shit or face isolation, no sleep and a limited diet for an indefinite period of time", which is not contingent on anything, because the people imposing the coercion can and will employ violence, drugs or whatever means necessary to make good on the threat.
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Because some people, mostly aging hippies, but others too, do believe that is this case, that you have to always let a kid make his/her own mistakes, however dangerous. Where do you stand on this, I didn't understand from your response.
Out for a bit of good, clean dead agenting again, I see.
Quote
I think that the people here who I respect understand that I do believe that abuses have occurred, my question, previously stated, but obviously not universally communicated, is how to guard against possible abuse and still keep the parts of the programs that many, many graduates have told me were helpful and even crucial to them when they were students at different CEDU schools. "
Once again, what parts of the Program do you want to keep? In my opinion, the basic Program sets up an environment ripe for abuse.
To put it another way, what do you think Chuck E. Dedrich University can do that a parent w/ support from family, friends and community can't do at home?
Can you answer a question other than with a question?
who needs regular piss tests more than a former blowski who has his finger on the button?
--Chuck Beyer
Post by: ottawa5 on August 19, 2004, 12:27:00 AM
The whole coercion issue is really difficult for me because I am a libertarian by nature. If, God forbide, my son was using drugs now or otherwise acting against himself, I think that I would not call in the law on him, because, painful as it might be to watch him destroy himself (and I'd try my best to influence him) he is now an adult, he has his own destiny.
I just think it's different with a minor. And sometimes terrible things do happen if you do not intervene.
When we sent my son away to RMA, the parents of one of his druggie best-friends really looked down on us for doing it, we heard about their comments on our decision. They said things like that boys will be boys, they would outgrow it, we were controlling, we were overreacting.
Then, some time later, after things were improving for my son, that druggie friend was out cruising around at 3 in the morning, still into the same crowd and behaviors, and he went across a highway median. His car was destroyed and he was dead at the scene.
I'm not blaming these parents--they had what was statistically a reasonable hope that things would work out without what they saw as our kind of extreme intervention. And there is everyday the chance, no matter how lucky or how good you are as a parent, that tragedy will strike: a random shooting, an accident, an illness.
So I pass no judgment, but how could I live with myself as a parent, if I didn't do everything I was capable of, to keep my underage child from risking his life? If we had not intervened and that had happened to us?
What I do know is that there is a good chance that if my son had been here, and I hadn't sent him to boarding school, he would have been in the car that was destroyed that night, since these guys used to hang out together all the time.
As parents, we have to do what we feel is best, after reflection, in the least extreme way possible. And with the full knowledge that there are no certainties and sometimes not even much support for our difficult decisions. I guess that's why parenting takes courage, which love can summon up in any of us.
I agree with you that no one should be forced to deny his/her own truths. It sounds as if the group/team leaders that you had were pretty insensitive and clumsy. We were fortunate, I guess, it goes back to my idea that you have to hire the best, in terms of insight and kindness, and for that you have to pay a decent wage. I don't know but maybe that wasn't being uniformly done throughout the CEDU system.
Post by: ottawa5 on August 19, 2004, 12:44:00 AM
But what about when the kid say "No, you can't make me" or a string of four letter words and out the door with his druggie, delinquent friends?
Do you say "Oh well, it is out of my hands".
The issues that surround parenting are complex and not always amenable to sound-bite answers or obscure philosophical debates: but I do know this: some kids are going to be defiant and go out the door, and my response is not going to be to say "oh well...".
We could agree, I think, that you should try everything else, therapy, living with other relatives, in-depth attempts at reconciliation, before sending a child, even a defiant, self and other-endangering child away.
Now to your questions about what parts of the RMA program I see as crucial: this will have to weight for another day, it's too late and my morning is going to be brutally early, but if you are interested, I will reply in the next few day---much of my opinion is influenced, of course, by my son and some of his friends who would not change much of anything about their RMA experiences, But then they do not report the abusive behaviors that some others have reported here.
Post by: Hamiltonf on August 19, 2004, 01:11:00 AM
I don't know whether you recall the song from the Beatles' Sgt Pepper Album, "she's leaving home". Basically, it tells the story of a girl leaving home where it is too stifling for her. The parent says, "how could she do this to ME?". I think what they are saying in this song that a child needs unconditional love.
When parents try to mould their kids into what the parent wants, and the child goes in another direction, it is really hard for parent to refrain from thinking, "How could he do that to me?" Consequently, this is transferred in the parent's mind into 1. blaming the child, and 2. Forcing the child into a different way of thinking -- along the lines of "I'll show HIM for putting me through this HELL" In other words, revenge!
From what I've seen of the raps, that is precisely what is going to make the parent feel better.
Tell me I'm wrong.
Post by: Ottawa2 on August 19, 2004, 01:35:00 AM
The differnce with my brother, is that her really could have been in that car. (read one of her last post for the full story)And yes we did try other this, therapy, relitive (sp?) ect. But none of them worked.
P.S.:Just a thought maybe my mom has to much going on in her life to sit here and answer every posters question in full. Just an thought thats all! :wave:
Post by: ottawa5 on August 19, 2004, 08:03:00 AM
Nice of you to cheer-lead for Ginger and Shanlea also, although from my "shallow perspective" at least,they really don't need it, they are quite capable people of getting their points across. I am always ready to respond when they address a query my way.
And I must also thank my little daughter (who is still asleep after a concert last night) for posting on my behalf (Ottawa2, that is). I guess when you get emotional support from your own loved ones in the real world, smart-aleck slams from usernames on a computer screen are pretty easy to put in perspective.
I will respond later to Ginger's question about specific parts of the CEDU program that we think should be retained, I have mentioned some of them before but I guess you didn't notice them, Hamilton. Oh well, big website, easy to miss things, right now I'm off, but it is always ennervating to hear from you.
Post by: Antigen on August 19, 2004, 06:37:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-18 21:44:00, ottawa5 wrote:
We could agree, I think, that you should try everything else, therapy, living with other relatives, in-depth attempts at reconciliation, before sending a child, even a defiant, self and other-endangering child away.
You left out one thing. Ever consider that you might be wrong? You may be overreacting and that the kid might have a pretty good handle on things, even though he scares hell out of you?
Quote
But what about when the kid say "No, you can't make me" or a string of four letter words and out the door with his druggie, delinquent friends?
Do you say "Oh well, it is out of my hands".
In many cases, yes. When a kid reaches the level of independence where they will no longer accept your authority, it is out of your hands.
Sending them away to people who will use force to control them doesn't teach them a thing about the choices they're making. It only teaches them that might makes right, and that only lasts as long as you can maintain that coercive authority over them. And, as many posters to these forums are happy to explain to you, it can do a whole lot of damage in the process.
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Now to your questions about what parts of the RMA program I see as crucial: this will have to weight for another day, it's too late and my morning is going to be brutally early...
Excuses, excuses! Come on. Simple question. What is it that a program like RMA does that you can't do yourself? If you take away the abuse, what's left?
It only takes a little prescience to understand that we're all fair game for the deeds we condone.
--Antigen
Post by: Antigen on August 19, 2004, 08:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-18 21:27:00, ottawa5 wrote:
"That's sort of interesting, my last post and your previous (second last) post were both at 20:26. Hope it's a sign that we have common ground and we are just expressing it in different ways.
No, I think it's just a sign that we post posted within roughly 60 seconds of each other. Your mentioning it suggests to me that 1) you're given to superstitious belief and 2) you're spending way too much time scrutinizing this forum.
Quote
Then, some time later, after things were improving for my son, that druggie friend was out cruising around at 3 in the morning, still into the same crowd and behaviors, and he went across a highway median. His car was destroyed and he was dead at the scene.
First, if you give proper respect and consideration to the fine people who've taken time to answer your questions, you'd realize that you had NO way of knowing how your son was doing because all of your communication with him was subject to his staying "in agreement". Second, how do you know that your son might not have influenced his friend to stay put, get a ride or do something entirely different with his evening? You don't. All you know is that your son lost a friend and, I'm guessing, wasn't even allowed to attend the funeral. Even if he might have learned a lesson from this tragedy, that didn't happen. Instead, he's to maintain that CEDU saved him from certain death.
And, btw, who uses the term "druggie"?
Quote
I agree with you that no one should be forced to deny his/her own truths.
Well, if you send your kid to strangers in the Troubled Parent industry, they are forced to accept a lot of "truths" that are not true. Ask anyone who's been there, including some of the former staff who post here.
If triangles had a God, He'd have three sides.
--Old Yiddish proverb
Post by: Antigen on August 19, 2004, 08:11:00 PM
Don't know if this band/song are big where you are, but I thought you might appreciate this. These are the lyrics of a song called Just Like You by a band called 3 Days Grace. It sort of sums up a bit of what we often talk about around here and it's encouraging that some young ppl are writing, singing and listening to this stuff.
I could be mean
I could be angry
You know I could be just like you
I could be fake
I could be stupid
You know I could be just like you
You thought you were sitting beside me
Your were only in my way
You?re wrong if you think that I?ll be just like you
You thought you were there to guide me
You were only in my way
You?re wrong if you think that I?ll be just like you
You thought you were there to guide me
You were only in my way
You?re wrong if you think that I?ll be just like you
I could be cold
I could be ruthless
You know I could be just like you
I could be weak
I could be senseless
You know I could be just like you
You thought you were sitting beside me
Your were only in my way
You?re wrong if you think that I?ll be just like you
You thought you were there to guide me
You were only in my way
You?re wrong if you think that I?ll be just like you
You thought you were there to guide me
You were only in my way
You?re wrong if you think that I?ll be just like you
On my own, cause I can?t take liven with you
I?m alone, so I won?t turn out like you
Want me to
You thought you were sitting beside me
Your were only in my way
You?re wrong if you think that I?ll be just like you
You thought you were there to guide me
You were only in my way
You?re wrong if you think that I?ll be just like you
You thought you were there to guide me
You were only in my way
You?re wrong if you think that I?ll be just like you
I could be mean
I could be angry
You know I could be just like you
By 1940 the literacy figure for all states stood at 96 percent for whites. Eighty percent for blacks. Notice for all the disadvantages blacks labored under, four of five were still literate. Six decades later, at the end of the 20th century, the National Adult Literacy Survey and the National Assessment of Educational Progress say 40 percent of blacks and 17 percent of whites can't read at all. Put another way, black illiteracy doubled, white illiteracy quadrupled, despite the fact that we spend three or four times as much real money on schooling as we did 60 years ago.
--Vin Suprynowicz
Post by: ottawa5 on August 19, 2004, 09:11:00 PM
Actually, if you had read carefully, the post with the comment about posting at the same time was addressed to Shanlea, not you. Either way, lighten up a bit, why don't you, it was a joking remark, not some reservoir of superstition. Very heavy-handed response for you to offer!
Here is the main thing though: what you addressed to me today explains the whole story vis a vis where you are coming from. I think it goes way beyond CEDU or any particular school.
You really don't think that parents should have control over their minor children! That's the bottom line and the explanation for the basic difference between you and me.
I guess the proof of who is right will come out in the form of individual successes among a generation of kids who are raised either according to your approach or mine. I'm betting on mine, based on common sense and what I've seen up to now.
But your snippy comments ("who uses the term druggie?"), your astonishingly overbearing assumption that you could possibly know anything about my communication with my son, anything at all about whether he was likely to be a good influence on anyone else in the days before he went to RMA---do these outlandish comments suggest a certain defensive uneasiness with your own position when any conflicting information enters your field of awareness?
I hope so, but only time will tell.
Hope your advice doesn't lead to harm for too many people in the meantime.
Now, in answer to your original question, there are many things that I liked about the RMA experience:
I liked the removal from a home environment which had come to be filled with cues to reactivate certain behavior patterns (I wrote a paper on this, in fact, based on the Elaboration Likelyhood Model of Attitude Change). Again and again, I've said that it is better not to get to such a point--I'm talking about when you do in fact get there.
I liked most of the staff there. The parent coordinators were wonderful and my son had certain staff that were central to his turn-around. I think you have to hire staff very very carefully--the comments at this site suggest that this was not always done.
In our program, the peer relationships, especially the Big Brother relationship was instrumental in bringing about consideration of a new way of doing things.
My son and his friends loved the Propheets, and the Wilderness Experience, I know one girl who the school sent home after a year because they decided that she didn't really need that much structure (even though her family could easily have paid for the whole program). I've heard her say that she wishes that she had stayed through the Wilderness Experience because so many of her peers found it to be an uplifting and wonderful experience.
I think the rules about dress and the structure of the place (within reason)played a positive role in imposing some healthy limits--but there may be different and improved ways to design such a program.
And of course the Parent Seminars and Workshops gave me insights and growth that have changed our family for the better in many ways.
I could mention other things, the beauty and isolation of the setting, the small class sizes, the participation in outside experiences such as sports and business events and so on, but I am talking to someone who is coming from a completely different value system, so I guess that sort of makes me feel like there isn't much point.
Your thinking is such that you cannot even consider that these schools may do good, you're a black and white thinker, seeing all good or all bad and I don't know if this is your nature or if something has happened that made you like this.
Even though we had a great experience, I am able to weigh what I've heard, to consider what might go wrong in other situation, to try to improve where situations of risk exist. But I cannot see how it is possible to talk in any kind of balanced way on a complex subject with someone who thinks like you do.
Face it: it would devastate your world if you had to admit that a program like RMA can lead to happy, grateful, forward-looking, fully-functioning graduates who don't fit the predictions that your rigid world-view would like to dictate for them.[ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-08-19 18:12 ]
Post by: Antigen on August 19, 2004, 10:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-19 18:11:00, ottawa5 wrote:
You really don't think that parents should have control over their minor children! That's the bottom line and the explanation for the basic difference between you and me.
No. I think that parents have much more important and more subtle influence over their children (and children over their parents) through unconditional love and mutual respect than through brute force. You'll come to appreciate that (or not) as your kids get older and have children of their own.
Everything in moderation, including moderation.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Post by: Anonymous on August 19, 2004, 11:50:00 PM
-A population activist
Post by: Anonymous on August 20, 2004, 12:19:00 AM
What?s up?
Just a few things before I go to bed. You said that you believe in unconditional love is the way to raise a child and I agree with you (as dose my mother) 100%. However what you do not understand is that, that?s why we sent my brother to CEDU. We loved him to much to let him throw his life away.
And, you question my mother about not knowing if my brother would have had a positive influence with his friends. I have only on comment for that: The way you want to raise children is no better then flipping a coin and hoping that it turns out right.
The thing you do not seem to grasp is that parent who truly love there children will do anything to help them in life; you don?t seem to believe in this. You call the parents lazy for "shipping your kids off...?
What about you? Your theory is to just let kids be. How is that not lazy parenting? Yup just let the kids do whatever he wants, don't get involved or anything like that it might interrupt your day! (BTW that part was sarcastic)
Hope to hear from you soon!
:wave:
Post by: Ottawa2 on August 20, 2004, 12:21:00 AM
Post by: Hamiltonf on August 22, 2004, 01:23:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-08-19 17:11:00, Antigen wrote:
"Hey Hamilton! Good to hear from ya' :wave:
Don't know if this band/song are big where you are, but I thought you might appreciate this. These are the lyrics of a song called Just Like You by a band called 3 Days Grace. It sort of sums up a bit of what we often talk about around here and it's encouraging that some young ppl are writing, singing and listening to this stuff.
"
I continue to find this site thought-provoking and inspiring. Of course.
I think I'll pass that song along to my daughter and get her reaction.
I wonder how Ottawa5 would have reacted to my mya daughter's growing pains -- and my son.
When my daughter was 15 and rebelling, it was her mother's unconditional love and patience that stood in the way of any draconian coercive treatment that I might have advocated. There were suicide attempts, she lost a friend to suicide. But she pulled through. And she brought home friends with problems. One I learned was a heroin user.
And my son, always the thinker, came home expressing concern about other kids popping pills indiscriminately at parties. So what did he do? -- he read up on the various drugs himself, experimented himself and started a chapter of Rave-Safe (Derived from Dance-Safe of San-Fransisco)
The outcome of all this is that my daughter followed up her interest in recreational drugs, which she continues to use wisely, obtained a B.Sc. in Psychology, has moved to Vancouver (where she has met Barry, by the way, and hopes to do graduate work in his area) and is now working full time with troubled youth in a group home. My son, on the other hand was a software engineer for a while, taught English in China and has returned to University majoring in Economics.
I hate to think how they would have turned out had Ottawa 5 methods been used :roll:
Post by: shanlea on August 22, 2004, 11:17:00 AM
You should not assume that Ginger advocates lazy parenting just because she does not advocate the programs/schools listed on this board.
I also disagree with the approach taken by CEDU to "treat" the child, but I would never assume your mother doesn't love your brother because he was sent there; I wouldn't even assume she was a lazy parent.
Post by: Anonymous on August 22, 2004, 01:37:00 PM
I am not saying that Anti nessacarly supports lazy parenting. I am saying that it sounds like she dose not want to bother with takeing an active role in her child's (if she even has one) life. She said that if a 15 year old would not stay home when told that they where ready for the real world. But, if that is the case then what about a 2 year old that throws a tantrum when you won't let them play with someing dangurous? According to Anti's theroy they would be ready to take on that responseablitly! I also want to thank you for been more civiled while me and my mother, then some of the people on this site. We really do appreciate it since all we want is civil conversation.
Also, to Hamilton are you saying that you are proud that both of your children are druggies???
Im not sure that can be labeled a success story.
And I can tell you what would have happened if my mother had raised your children they would have been just a successful but with out the drug use.
Post by: Ottawa2 on August 22, 2004, 01:38:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on August 22, 2004, 02:15:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-22 10:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
I am not saying that Anti nessacarly supports lazy parenting. I am saying that it sounds like she dose not want to bother with takeing an active role in her child's (if she even has one) life.
You couldn't be more wrong! When Officer Friendly came to my door suggesting that I file (false) charges against my daughter, in order for them to "help" her, the easiest, laziest CYA move I could have made would have been to go along w/ that advice. She would have landed up in Broward County's boot camp program and I would have been lauded as a good and TOUGHloving mother for pawning her off on them.
Instead, we just continued to take the fallout from some of her activities and to be there for her, even after her psycho boyfriend had driven a wedge between her and everyone else she knew. He couldn't run us off, though, even w/ death threats, even w/ false complaints to authorities and other types of harassment.
I only know of one significant difference between what Psycho Boy was doing to her and what the altruistic officers who run Broward County Juvenile Intervention Services do to kids. W/ Psycho Boy, at any moment, as soon as she decided she wanted to get off the ride, she could just walk away, come home, go stay w/ one of her old friends (far enough away to not be afraid of the asshole and his friends, family and such) or go visit a cousin. Instead of trying to force her into doing what we thought was best, we just kept reminding her that she had a lot of options if she wanted to take them and that we'd do all we could to help her get what she wanted.
The hardest part of the whole situation was learning not to mention the obvious with regard to the idiot boyfriend. As long as we said it, she'd defend him to bizarre extremes. When we quit talking about him, she figured it out for herself, got on a bus, came home, took a couple of jobs and started saving for a car and school.
The sadist cannot stand the separation of the public and the private; nor can he grant to others the mystery of their personality, the validity of their inner self...in order for him to feel his maximum power, he wants the world to be peopled with concrete manipulatable objects...
-- ERNEST BECKER, The Structure of Evil, 1968.
Post by: Ottawa2 on August 22, 2004, 04:48:00 PM
To me it seem like your would rather just flip a coin and say "well its heads so I guess she'll trun out alright" Instead of trying to help your child improve there odds.
For every success story on this site about drug user that turned them selfs around there are a dozen other storys out there that are not so happy. The odds are agaist them.
I guess I just have a problem with your theroy that a 15 year old can be prepared for the real world. Again no matter how many happy storys are on this site there are twice as many that are not so happy.
According to you a 2 year old that throws a tatrum should get whatever they want. Do you truely belive that?
Hope to hear from you soon! :wave:
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 23, 2004, 09:35:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-08-22 10:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am not saying that Anti nessacarly supports lazy parenting. I am saying that it sounds like she dose not want to bother with takeing an active role in her child's (if she even has one) life."
_________________________________________________
Neither did Ottawa 5,she just shipped her son off to some cult, where she payed total strangers to mind-fuck him. This gave Ottawa 5 plenty of extra time to focus on her career and
return to college. She must have found these new pursuits more worthwhile than actually hanging in there and being a real mother to her son when he obviously needed her the most. Ottawa 2, what your mom did to your brother is the epitamy of LAZY PARENTING.
.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-23 06:53 ][ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-23 06:54 ]
Post by: blownawaytheidahoway on August 23, 2004, 03:29:00 PM
Post by: ehm on August 23, 2004, 05:11:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-22 13:48:00, Ottawa2 wrote:
"Your still just flipping a coin with your kids. I in no way would want you to file false reports against your daughter, that definetly is not what my mother or I are supporting. But, what if those charges were true?
To me it seem like your would rather just flip a coin and say "well its heads so I guess she'll trun out alright" Instead of trying to help your child improve there odds.
For every success story on this site about drug user that turned them selfs around there are a dozen other storys out there that are not so happy. The odds are agaist them.
I guess I just have a problem with your theroy that a 15 year old can be prepared for the real world. Again no matter how many happy storys are on this site there are twice as many that are not so happy.
According to you a 2 year old that throws a tatrum should get whatever they want. Do you truely belive that?
Hope to hear from you soon! :wave: "
And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of Children."
And he said:
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.
-- Kahlil Gibran
- A democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
- A republic is where the sheep get to pick which wolves vote on what to have for dinner.
- But in a constitutional republic, voting on dinner is strictly
forbidden.
--A Patriot
Post by: Ottawa2 on August 23, 2004, 06:23:00 PM
Before he got sent there she tried many, many different things. Grounding him, trusting him, drug rehab, living with other relatives, and yes just being there for him but guess what nothing worked.
Anti sat their while her daughter endured an abusive relationship and did not do so much as lift a finger to stop it. Because she wanted her daughter to ?figure things out herself?
Well guess what people? Kids don?t know what they are doing that?s when parents have to step in not just sit there so the kid COULD be killed, OD, raped ECT. But hey according to anti it?s ok because they will ?figure things out themselves?
To Anti: I am still waiting for an answer to my questions that I have asked twice now.
Do you really think that a two year old playing with a dangerous object should be aloud to ?figure things out? for them selves? Cuz if a 15 year old is ready for the really world (that is what you think right?) then why not a 2 year old? And do you really think it is safe to raise your children by just flipping a coin?
Lezli: Trust me my mother and I both know that you do not own your child like you own a lamp, but until they are 18 according to the law you are responsible for them. However I really do not see how any of the things that you quoted had anything to do with my post if you could clarify that would be much appreciated. And please use your own word.
(BTW: none of my mothers children have been in an abusive relationship, none are on drugs, none are alcoholics, none have any mental or emotional problems and all of them are in school.)
Post by: shanlea on August 23, 2004, 07:53:00 PM
I'm sure it is difficult to read some of the more ignorant comments directed towrd your Mom. However, it is not fair to judge Antigen's parenting style on the basis that she had challenging moments with her daughter. Most of the best parents I know face many fears or challenges with their children. Also, it is extremely difficult to force your older children out of relationships and often better to use subtler or more creative tactics in an effort to encourage in hopes their self worth kicks in. Most kids I know went through at least one very bad relationship on the road to growing up, and many of them would not want to be judged for their worst moments in their journey in life.
In any event, I don't think Antigen advocates a "do nothing" approach to parenting. A lot of parenting is creative effort and knowing when to draw the line and when to let your kid fall on his ass and learn from it.
Before I was a mother, I was more judgmental about other mothers. With two children of my own, whom I love very much, I've learned to be humble and supportive of other parents. The truth is that there is no exact science to parenting; it's an art born out of love and courage and a bottomless well of humor.
Post by: ehm on August 23, 2004, 11:57:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-16 19:02:00, ottawa5 wrote:
It is as if he has had the experience, he keeps what is meaningful with his friends and with us, and the rest he leaves, without much regret.
Oh, just wait.
Quote
It is more complicated for me, because my focus is that I want to open a school that improves on what was good about CEDU. As you might imagine, I have to look into the nuances and the details, I realize that a lot of the people at this site do not see anything good at all in the whole CEDU experience, and I understand that.
Or Synanon, Seed, Straight, Kids, SAFE, Pathways, etc?
Responsible does not mean confinement. I don?t, won?t, and never will agree with what you did to your son.
Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.
--Mark Twain
Post by: Ottawa2 on August 24, 2004, 12:33:00 PM
And its ok that you do not agree wioth me because my brother (not my son, im his sister pay attention!) is haveing a great live after being at CEDU a number of years ago. Oh, did you know that the book you quoted was on the aloud reading list at RMA? Thought you might be interested with that little fact.
Shanlea, thank you so much for being one of the few people here that can responed with, intelligent resonalbe respones. I did not mean to judge Anti, I was just trying to make a point, if we were to judge like my mother has its what you might call a double edged sword, or on this site a double standard. And yes it is had to read some of ignorent post thats the main reason that I got irrated . I really did not mean to sorry! :wave:
Anyway Im still waiting for Anti to responed to my question (please hurry)
PS. I ask my brother the other night to come and post but he said and I quote "I don't want to get addicted to some stupied arguments" Guess its too late for me.
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on August 24, 2004, 01:37:00 PM
Question: You're in a foxhole. Who do you want as your partner- John Wayne or the Pope?
Post by: ehm on August 24, 2004, 01:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-24 09:33:00, Ottawa2 wrote:
"well Lezli if your confertable not speaking for yourself and just quoteing people I guess thats ok. But you know what you didnt even answer my question. I really wish you had so I could understand your respons more clearly. Did I ever ask you to agree with me? no, the only reason my mother and I are on this site is because we thought there would be some intellingent resinable debet.
And its ok that you do not agree wioth me because my brother (not my son, im his sister pay attention!) is haveing a great live after being at CEDU a number of years ago. Oh, did you know that the book you quoted was on the aloud reading list at RMA? Thought you might be interested with that little fact.
Shanlea, thank you so much for being one of the few people here that can responed with, intelligent resonalbe respones. I did not mean to judge Anti, I was just trying to make a point, if we were to judge like my mother has its what you might call a double edged sword, or on this site a double standard. And yes it is had to read some of ignorent post thats the main reason that I got irrated . I really did not mean to sorry! :wave:
Anyway Im still waiting for Anti to responed to my question (please hurry)
PS. I ask my brother the other night to come and post but he said and I quote "I don't want to get addicted to some stupied arguments" Guess its too late for me."
I do, why don't you? It was O5 I quoted, and O5 I was speaking to. Not you kid. Also, I find no admiration in you playing parent and speaking for your mother. That's not a healthy role for you to assume. Just an observation.
The "aloud list?" Well, it's to bad it's meaning was lost in translation.
We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.
-- Ben Franklin At the signing of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776.
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 24, 2004, 02:40:00 PM
(O2) Bryan is right Ottawa2, your brother is a big coward who needs his mom and sister to fight his battles for him. You and your mother so valiantly defend your brother's Cedu Experience, while in reality, you don't know shit about it. I used to find this offensive, but now it's funny. Anyways back to Mr. Self-Surveilance, why is he so afraid to post here? Is he really that afraid of us? Or is he more afraid that he might disagree with and offend your mother? I'm not so sure anymore that your brother agrees with everything you and your mother are saying.
I think that RMA whipped that boy so bad that he was asking your mom for permission to wipe his ass when he got out. He's afraid I think, of your mom much more so than us.
O2 why do you come here anyways? I thought 16 year girls had their own lives with boyfriends, dates, shopping with their girlfriends at the mall, part-time summer jobs, cheerleader try outs, concerts, parties, etc...... Is Ottawa 5 so controlling that she won't permit you your own life, or are you just that big of a loser that you have nothing better to do than come here and help your mom defend some cult that you know absolutely nothing about? Which is it?
Post by: Deborah on August 24, 2004, 03:16:00 PM
It is wise for a parent to stay out of the way as much as possible whether their child is 2 or 15.
That doesn't mean that you don't scoop your two year old up if they are running into the street or about to hurl themselves off a cliff. But if that child is about to take a tumble that is not life threatening, you don't panic and rescue them. That is how humans learn. There is far too much 'rescuing' going on in our culture which greatly sabotages and/or arrests children's development-ability to learn from their experiences and mistakes. I could police my toddlers every move or I could allow him to learn first hand, and I no longer have to be the police. If he is about to touch the hot door of the oven, which might hurt but won't require medical attention, I would allow it. He won't touch it again. Well, some are persistent and it might take more than once, but you get the idea. But, he has learned something that I couldn't teach him by saying no and continually moving him away. Same with the tumbles. I could prevent my child from climbing and rob him of valuable lessons about the physical limitations of his body.
I know a 2.5 yr old whose parents are extemely over-protective. When dad is on duty he follows right behind him (literally) so he can 'prevent' any accidents. Ironically the dad is a muscle bound athlete. When he can break free, which he is constatnly tryng to do, he invaribly gets hurt. Whether it is running away from them and therefore not paying attention or just because he knows nothing about his abilities and limitations. He would assuredly fall off the cliff because no and stop are signals for him to run like hell. His parents use the accidents as futher 'evidence' that their excessive protection is absolutely necessary. They can not see that they are interfering with his development. This child, at the tender age of 2.5 already resents his parents. He is 'defiant', sneeky, passively agressive... and I can see that he will very likely be a future candidate for drugs or incarceration.
The number one killer of teens is auto accidents. Pay attention to what I'm about to say. Drug deaths DON'T EVEN MAKE THE TOP 20. The hysteria around this 'risky' behavior is not justified. Why not incarcerate teens to prevent them from driving? -Actually, I think some parents do!! It would make more sense- if you are going to use facts and statistics to justify the warehouse industry.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#56774 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=874&forum=9&start=20#56774)
Fact: $6000 a month buys a whole lot of resource in any community. There were options for your brother.
These are good articles about how America's fear of teens and policies actually create problems and which present a different perspective:
http://home.earthlink.net/~mmales/yt-euro.htm (http://home.earthlink.net/~mmales/yt-euro.htm)
http://www.youthtoday.org/youthtoday/males.html (http://www.youthtoday.org/youthtoday/males.html)
Post by: ottawa5 on August 24, 2004, 04:23:00 PM
Now this is disheartening. I thought that bradensmith, MAD and and some other new posters had gotten this site to a little higher, at least a little happier, level of discourse a couple of weeks ago.
First I want to say that I've really enjoyed this site. I've gotten a lot of good ideas and contacts from my time here earlier in the summer, more than enough good stuff to weigh-out various nasty comments--and even these have sometimes been informative. It's just that at the moment I have very little time to check in, and when I do,I see such a disappointing back-sliding on some of the threads.
Just for your information (I know, I know, like you'll believe it), my son simply has no interest whatsoever in this site.
I know that's hard for some of you to believe because this site plays a big part in your lives, but there it is: it's just irrelevant to him. I've also mentioned Fornit's to other CEDU grads who think the school did them good, and as far as I know, though I'm not sure of this, they haven't bothered to check in here either.
I understand that many of you are still bound by very negative feelings to your school experiences, perhaps you believe that posting here is going to change parents' minds about the schools (though in which direction, you might want to consider!)and so forth.
But if you are going to be in touch with the full reality of the experience of CEDU grads, as a group, you are going to have to consider the fact that for a lot of people, being in a CEDU school was a learning experience, and they have taken what they learned and gone on. It's not that they are mind-controlled or in a cult or anything, they just have other things to do now.
It will their performance in these new, future-oriented parts of their lives, not their personal decisions about whether or not to argue with angry ex-students and parents on a web-site, that will define whether they are fully-functioning or courageous or anything else.
Now my daughter is a very giving, generous person, the type of person who likes to help people get a full picture of what is happening on a situation like this one, where she hears some people making such extraordinary claims and yet she knows of many people who have experienced something very different.
She is on summer vacation and she likes the computer and if she has time, well, why not? I've told her that my advice is to go for it, if she wants to, and take what is good and leave the rest. That's what I try to do.
I think the fundamental defining difference in this debate has been clarified for me by Ginger recently and still more recently by Deborah, and it involves the role that parents should play in their minor children's lives and decision-making.
As I said to Ginger earlier, the proof of who is right will be decided, not by words, but by how children who have been raised in the differing ways that we've discussed turn out and how they contribute to the world and the future. From what I see, I'm happy with our choices.
I'll see you later.
Post by: blownawaytheidahoway on August 24, 2004, 04:34:00 PM
For all the anon people that are going to tell me to move on, grow up, grow whatever equiptment your perverted minds can imagine in order to become whole again (I can't be absolutely sure what I was since I was only 14) I will just say now that I will be ignoring all comments like that. I know what I need.
You don't know what I learned at RMA. I ran away for months at a time. And there was no restraints and drugs were way way way far from the type of program it was. I was eating snake, mice and dogs down in the desert when I ran away (8/24.88 actually)and was in SEWS. I know why things ain't right in my head and it ain't cause I smoke weed to keep me from going postal with an AR-12 and buying a one way ticket for Spokane like my folks did for me. My hurt comes from RMA. Plain and simple. Messages that I got there that I was unwanted to my parents and that I did need fixing (they break their own ideals, the words are not impeccably chosen, and they are not people of their word). The ratting and faking. I don't trust anyone and I don't walk in the middle of the hallway, I don't sit where I can't see everyone. I thought it was just idiosyncratic, y'know something quirky but it's full blown terror and that don't forget easy. RMA is still making me coo-coo for cocoa puffs!
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 24, 2004, 04:41:00 PM
.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-24 13:47 ]
Post by: ottawa5 on August 24, 2004, 05:20:00 PM
Sorry if trying to point out the truth is taken to mean that I am really my daughter, that I have taken over her life, or whatever other erroneous impression my post might have given you.
Post by: ehm on August 24, 2004, 06:41:00 PM
My heart goes out to your future victims.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.
--Plato
Post by: ottawa5 on August 24, 2004, 08:10:00 PM
Look, if you want to have a reasonable debate or a discussion, I would be delighted.
But get a grip, girl, you don't know me, you don't know my family. Your post is just a study in tantruming, venom and silliness all wrapped into one. If this isn't just about acting for an audience, I feel sorry for you.
Get back to me if and when you want to have a civil discussion.
Post by: Ottawa2 on August 24, 2004, 09:07:00 PM
Thought I would just make a few things clear.
1)My mother does encourage me to do what I want . For example posting on this site, she in no way encorages me to be a "clone copy" one of the biggest things she taught me was individulizim
2)Lezli, I really want to scream at you right now. I stated in my first post on this site that I have dyslexia,(go back and check if you do not belive me) it is very hard for me to spell/read as well as others do and is one of the things that my mother help me over come, not by doing everything for me but by haveing me read and write things myself, she was there if I had a question and was very suppotive.
3) Some complained about my mother responding for me. What about you guys responding for Anti? The question was directed at her.
Also I was out shopping for school today thats why I have not responed and my mother did (she was home studying today and probably posted when she took a break)
4)You people need to read more carefully I stated why my brother did not want to post on this site in one of my last posts. He has to much going on in his life to get involved in this. (Like some of you have)
5)SOS, no, sorry Im going to be 18 in the next couple of days. And, yes I love to go shopping and all of that. But, I find high school guys to be immature, Im often have no money (Spent it all on school supplies) to go shopping, its the summer so even if I wanted to be a cheerleadrer I couldnt, Again no money for concerts, I do have a summer job, but it doesnt take up that much time, but I do hang out with friends a lot.
6)Lezli, it dose not change anything. The people at RMA were able to read the book you quoted and appear to live by word for word
Talk to all of you soon! :wave:
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 25, 2004, 10:01:00 AM
O2, you are a carbon copy of your mother, and not a very good one at that!
As for your statement "I find highschool guys to be immature." that's the typical excuse made by highschool girls who can't get a date. Let me guess you don't date college guys either, because they're "too mature" right? you really can't blame the guys for not asking you out, I wouldn't date a carbon copy of Ottawa 5 either!
Y'know, I found this sad enough when I thought you were 16, but 18, that's just a tragedy. There's a whole big world out there to explore, you really need to get as far away as possible from your control-freak mother, and start living your own life!
Oh and Ottawa 5, I think what I said in my last post about your relationship with your son was dead on. There's nothing erroneous about it, you are a control-freak! If I'm wrong, then prove it. Bring your son onto this site!
.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-25 07:04 ]
Post by: ottawa5 on August 25, 2004, 10:46:00 AM
I can't bring my son anywhere, he's a grown-up person. Guess I could try to cajole or guilt him into it, but we don't have that kind of relationship, I think you are still working on the assumption that I have some kind of mind-control over him, one of the big HATE-CEDU delusions I hear around here sometimes.
If you would consider for a moment that maybe that's not true, maybe he has his own opinions and can think for himself, then his absence from this site, which he cares nothing about, would make more sense to you.
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 25, 2004, 11:15:00 AM
It's very easy for the two of you to champion cedu and dismiss the countless daily abuses, which so many posters on this site endured and have described to you. You consistantly gloss over the abuses that go on there, with your "end justifies the means mentality." Considering that neither you or your daughter were ever at cedu, you have no basis to defend that position!
Your son was there, if he truly shares your beliefs, then I want him to come out here and say it! Debating you and your daughter is pointless. The time has come for Mr. self-surveilance to speak for himself!
.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-25 08:16 ][ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-25 08:16 ]
Post by: Ottawa2 on August 25, 2004, 11:41:00 AM
You logic is very interesting: According to you my mother has control over my brother. But, she cant make him come to this site because of that control??? Please explain this to me I find it confuseing.
Now wouldnt it be sad if I was a girl that could not get a date? I might be crying right now because of that comment if it was true. Luckly I am able to get a date if I want to but at the moment I feel no need to get into a relationship thats going to end as soon as I leave for college.
I have already explain why my spelling sucks. (dyslexia)
And we ever right to post on this site. We both see how my brother changed after CEDU all of the changes were good.
I have one last question if it is pointless to debat my my mother and me then why to do keep responding to our posts? Just woundering!
:wave:
Post by: shanlea on August 25, 2004, 11:59:00 AM
Before you get your underwear twisted in a knot, let me remind you where I stand on CEDU. It was a waste of money to spend time in a place with substandard academics, substandard, untrained staff who were not qualified to help children using an individualized approach, abusive therapeutic techniques, lack of therapeutic boundaries with staff who were really working out their own stuff through the students, an overly controlled atmosphere that mitigated the student's ability to deal with the real world later, arbitrary bans etc. etc. etc.
When we engage with the Os, I think it best to argue without commentary about their family, whom we don't know or put-downs about their personal lives.
Also, I would be interested to hear from someone who went to RMA about the same time that Ottawa's son went into the program.
Post by: Anonymous on August 25, 2004, 01:38:00 PM
Shanlea: I respectfully disagree with your views on commenting about Ottawa5's son. She has in the past and continues to use his "Positive Experience" as an excuse in justifying and dismissing the inherent abusive nature of cedu's program. Whenever anyone on this site has challenged O5's and (to a lesser extent)O2's positive views on aspects of the Cedu program (raps, profeets, the rules, etc.), they consistantly come back with the position " Well.... I know it helped my son (or brother), and this proves that cedu is good." In their eyes (O5 & O2), the experience of Mr. self-surveilance (and his supposed giant group of "positive cedu friends" ::bwahaha2:: ), is the end-all, be-all, irrefutable evidence that their position on Cedu is the correct one.
Shanlea: if the Ottawa's are going to continue to use Mr. self-surveilance's experience and allegedly positive outlook on cedu as evidence to refute and dismiss the abuses, which I, you, and every other ex-cedu student posting on this site endured, then we have every right to question that evidence and comment on those experiences. This incluides the personal character of Ottawa5's son, and her relationship with him.
As for commenting on the Ottawa family, remember that we did not bring them onto this site, she did that all by herself. If you ask me, it's all fair game.
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 25, 2004, 01:47:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 25, 2004, 02:30:00 PM
However, the Ottawas are looking at the fact that their son/bro was getting into trouble and having difficulty at school pre-CEDU and is now successful post-CEDU. To them, that is the proof that CEDU is good. I can't really argue against that except that it does not dispel my belief that CEDU's practices are unethical.
Also, I don't think we can presume why O's son is not at the site. I have no idea why the Ottawas are here. But I would rather not make presuppositions about them like CEDU made about me (like make assumptions about O2's personal life or why O's son updated his family on a trip he took etc.) I want to get away from CEDU tactics as much as possible.
Ya dig?
Post by: ehm on August 25, 2004, 02:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-25 08:59:00, shanlea wrote:
When we engage with the Os, I think it best to argue without commentary about their family, whom we don't know or put-downs about their personal lives.
I understand where you're coming from, however, as a victim of almost 4 years incarceration, ages 13-15 in a wilderness adventure program, and the other Straight, Inc. ages 15-17, along with the extreme loss and psychological distress I have felt because of that time, it is very hard for me not to be angered by O5's posts. Due to that I slipped in some jabs which were not necessary. O5 has stated many times that she wants to open a ?program? of her own, disregarding and/or minimizing any and all accounts of harm, neglect and abuse, emotionally and physically. She, in my opinion, is the epitome of a neglectful controller who is here to make herself feel better for a choice she cannot change. Her aspiration to open her own mind rape mill also tells me that she has something to prove, ?Look what a good parent I am!? ?Look how helpful and good the program is!? It just hits a nerve with me. I appreciate her being vocal with her ideas, because it shows me how strong denial can be, and helps me understand others who are like her, like my own mother, who is just now beginning to come to terms with what her choices did for me, 18 years ago.
Quote
Also, I would be interested to hear from someone who went to RMA about the same time that Ottawa's son went into the program.
I?d be very interested in hearing from them too.
The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.
--John Gilmour
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 25, 2004, 03:25:00 PM
at Cedu whenever any student questioned the program in raps or elsewhere, staff always pulled out their list of former students that cedu "helped" as a means to justify the program. And if you continued to question cedu, or named the names of people in your peer group who split and disappeared, the staff and older students all gathered to the other side of the room and spewed holy hell upon you. It was never a free discussion or exchange of ideas, cedu's position has always been this: "These people were helped by cedu and love the program, if you don't agree with us it's because your dishonest, stupid, or totally fucked in the head!"
So the way I see it, if the ottawas use cedu tactics against us to gloss over, dismiss, and justify the abuses we suffered, then why can't we use those same tactics to refute their arguements? Let fire fight fire I say.
And yes I will continue to speculate on the Ottawas personal lives, as well as her son's reasons for not posting here. Ottawa5 consistantly speculates on our personal stories of abuse at cedu, and dismisses us as being "Dilusional Hate Cedu Fanatics!" Why shouldn't we give her a taste of her own medicine?
Ottawa 5 your son is a coward, and I truly suspect that in reality he is not in complete agreement with what you've been saying about cedu. He's just afraid to tell you. If I'm wrong ottawa5, then prove it. BRING YOUR SON ONTO THIS SITE!
.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-25 12:33 ]
Post by: Anonymous on August 25, 2004, 03:27:00 PM
I couldn't imagine 4 years of incarceration -- 6 months was bad enough for me and affected me in a lasting manner. I didn't even go through all the crazy propheet experiences my peers did throughout the program. When I read the Straight threads, it sounds worse than CEDU... really fucked up. I can't even believe it exists--I mean no privacy or respite whatsoever from all that crazy drivel and physical control. I don't know how you would get over it, have any sense of boundaries in life when none of yours were respected... it makes me absolutely ill.
Has your mother ever read the Straight site to know exactly what you endured? Because a lot of that testimony is pretty freaking powerful.
Post by: ehm on August 25, 2004, 04:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-25 12:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Has your mother ever read the Straight site to know exactly what you endured? Because a lot of that testimony is pretty freaking powerful. "
Not yet. She doesn't have a computer. I did show her a story on Roloff Rebekah Home for Girls in Corpus Christi, Texas while she was visiting, and she broke down and cried while reading the testimonial. The story struck a chord that had a very powerful effect on her, and she sat and said how sorry she was, relating it to my experiences. She's also seen http://www.thestraights.com (http://www.thestraights.com) and read many stories from ex-Straightlings through that resource. She later admitted to me. "I know that I have not been a good mother, and that I have made many mistakes that I am regretful for, and I?m sorry." That was an amazing thing for me to hear from her. I have forgiven my mother, but have not forgotten. And though I am speaking to her again, I?m still setting limits on our relationship, and am developing trust. My mother is not the safest person, and has many demons to face still, in the form of prescriptions, alcohol and general self-awareness. Forgiveness is the only way to have my own peace, and have any kind of relationship with her. It has taken almost 20 years for her to be able to come to these conclusions, and I know it is very humbling to admit to me her mistakes and regrets. Admitting you hurt someone you love is always very hard to do, but the sooner the better. I just need to stop wanting a mom I don?t have, and accept the terms and conditions of the one I do have, and set boundaries accordingly.
Totalitarianism is like a specter which drinks the blood of the living and so achieves reality, while the victims go on existing as a mass of living corpses.
Karl Jaspers, The Fight Against Totalitarianism (1963)
Post by: Antigen on August 25, 2004, 08:06:00 PM
I spent nearly 10 years playing the part of the little sister while my brothers and sister went through The Seed. By the time I was 15, I was so damned good at delivering my lines, walking the tightrope... they should have sent me out on speaking engagements! But also, by that time, I wasn't really sure how much I actually believed the bullshit ther spewed so freely from my mouth and how much I was just posing to avoid landing up in the Program myself.
O2 can't win. The game is rigged. No matter how hard he/she tries to walk the straight and narrow, O5 will project the "signs" of [state your fear] onto him/her. But you can't blame him/her for trying.
As for the brother/son, put yourself in his shoes. Can you imagine voluntarily taking part in a social function based on the Program and already staked out by... well, me and my mom? I don't expect to hear from the guy for quite some time. I wish him the best and hope he's able to earn his degree, pass his boards and live a happy life as a dentist.
Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.
Mahatma Gandhi, My Autobigraphy, p. 446
Post by: Ottawa2 on August 25, 2004, 08:33:00 PM
Shanlea: You are by far the sainest person on this site. I am very greatful that you respond with calm logic instead of insain rantings like some of the people on this site. Please continue to post!
SOS: Your logic still dose not make any sence if my mother did have that kind of control over my brother then she would be able to make him come to this site and post whatever she told him to. Instead he decieds not to come to this web site. Please explain this to me! If my brother was as you called him a coward then wouldnt he do whatever my mother said??
And its not just my brothers experience its his friends as well. However we are most fimillar with my brothers so we mainly use that as an example.
Anon: You seem to be a very logical person. Please contiune to post this site needs more sain people like you.
Lezli: My mother has nothing to prove she is here to gather information as she has stated several times. However people seem very unwilling to help her in any way to gather the information.
Anti: You have yet to answer my questions. Please do I really want to hear you answer.
BTW: If you guys have to sink to the level of personal attacks I think that says something about your side of the arrgument and about your self. As for the consern some of you have about me being a "clone copy" of my mother, I can tell you we are VERY diffrent from one another. (it would take to long to type everything out) but we both agree on this subject.
Oh, just to let ever one know Ill be working at my part time job a lot in the next week or so. So, I wont be able to post so often as I have been but I'll try!
Hope to talk you you all soon! :wave:
Post by: shanlea on August 25, 2004, 09:11:00 PM
I am interested in how people communicate with their family about their experiences in these programs once realization sets in. It would be important they don't deny your experience to have any type of relationship with them. I've never really talked to my folks about it. I don't actually blame my parents for CEDU. They really thought it was a beautiful school that would help me finish school and improve my self esteem.
I will say that I am glad to come to this forum because I'm not as ignorant on these schools/ programs anymore. I will be getting into education and this site has helped me be aware of different programs in case any parent asks for advice. It is very easy to be lured in by nice brochures and an ed con. Also, before this forum, I didn't really look beyond the surface either in spite of the fact I went to CEDU. If someone said they sent their kid into a program called Straight for help with drugs, I might not have questioned it if it weren't for this site. Now I know. So, it is important and reading through different sites have helped me make important realizations.
Post by: shanlea on August 25, 2004, 10:47:00 PM
Post by: shanlea on August 25, 2004, 11:02:00 PM
Seriously, don't get too upset by some of the posts. I understand it's natural to want a say when people are talking about you and your family...just like some of us want a say in our experiences in different programs. We really didn't have a choice back then! But it's hard to always respond logically if you had a hellacious experience and you feel it is being denied. Also, some of us feel there were systemic problems inherent in these programs that can really lead to tremendous breaches of ethics on different levels. Also, the fact that it is many years later and some of us are adults with children and responsibilities, we are evaluating this experience differently. We have the advantage of hindsight.
Post by: Son Of Serbia on August 26, 2004, 07:44:00 AM
O2, you definately are a poor carbon copy of your mother,and a very poor one at that. You lack her intelligence and ability to write in complete sentences. You our not your own individual. This is most evident by the fact that in all of your posts here, you have not expressed a single original thought or idea. you simply regurgutate all of the cedu propaganda that your mom fills your empty head with. Your basically a tape recorder. I truly feel sorry for you, this is not your fault, but it is a fact.
Seriously O2, get your own life. I don't believe for a second that guys are into you, and that you stay single by choice. I think you're a big loser, and no one asks you out probably because you are either ugly, a total geek, or your mother simply won't allow it!
I hope that college will change all of this for you. Just be careful. A lot of girls like you grow up with repressive parents. Once they go away to college and are no longer under their Mothers control, they go nuts. Most girls who have been repressed as long as you have don't know how to handle that much freedom once they get it. A great many of them wind up becoming total whores, drug addicts and/or alcoholics, flunking out of school, and often end up having unwanted pregnancies. Word of Advice: Take your new found freedom in moderation. Oh and if you still can't understand my logic about your brother, don't bother asking me to explain it again. It'll only make you look even more stupid than you already do.
Post by: Ottawa2 on August 26, 2004, 10:29:00 AM
Lets see where do I begin?
How about you concern about me having original thoughts. Trust me I do, but on CEDU my mother and I agree 100% and since we both know the same people that went through CEDU of course our agruments are going to be similar! are you really that dumb that you could not figuer that one out???
And no you did not explain any thing you just called my brother a coward. Please do not reply untill you feel like actually explaing it. If my mother truely had that control over him (like you seem to think she dose) then she WOULD be able to bring him here.
I must ask you not to make comments about my spelling, writing ect. It is a very sensitive subject for me and I have allready told you why it is so poor. If you do not know what dyslexia is then go look it up. If your to lazy then well guess theres nothing I can do about someone like you.
Now, as for my dateing life. You seem very cconsered with it for some reason! Mind telling me why? I guess there is no way to prove that I chose to be single. I can just say that it is just that.
BTW VERY matuer of you to take personal shots at me. Do you really not have any other arguments? Maybe you should take a break untill you actually have somthing to say.
I am a greek nad proud of it!!! :grin:
My mother is always very happy when I bring a guy home. I and just not curentlly dateing.
You have some seirous problems if you think that is ok to call a girl ugly it was one of those nice cheap shots that you like so much.
Shanlea: I can definatly understand why peole would be upset if someone denied what had happend to them. But, in my mothers post I do not remember her ever dening what had happend. In fact I remeber her say thing like, she was a ware of the abuise due to thing like uncalified staff ect. And thats why she would want to open her own school to make sure that thing like that would not happen. If she ever actually said something like "No, that did not happen to you you are just making it up!" Please tell me which post and I will have to trouble agreeing that she was wrong but untill then I will stand by my mothers side on this one.
Post by: Ottawa2 on August 26, 2004, 10:52:00 AM
(To all other posters: please excuse the cures.)
PS. Mean people suck! :wave:
Post by: shanlea on August 26, 2004, 10:55:00 AM
SOS: Your post was really mean, no two ways around it. You really can't assume that O's son is a coward just because he doesn't have the time or the inclination to come to this site; you can't assume O5 is a control freak; and you can't assume O2 is ugly or stupid. Some of the smartest people in the world have dyslexia. I honestly don't know how you can rebel against CEDU but post as viciously as you do.
If the Os keep returning to the site you could possibly choose to answer them with rationale instead of insults. Or even sarcasm. But there is no call for the names you call O2 and your prediction for her future college life.
What if someone said these things to your daughter? This is exactly the kind of thing that happened in raps, for God's sake.
Post by: ehm on August 26, 2004, 01:02:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-25 20:02:00, shanlea wrote:
?Also, the fact that it is many years later and some of us are adults with children and responsibilities, we are evaluating this experience differently. We have the advantage of hindsight.?
An excellent point, and you know what they say about hindsight being 20/20.
Quote
On 2004-08-26 07:52:00, Ottawa2 wrote:
PS. Mean people suck! :wave: "
The difference is, you can turn off your computer. We had no escape. They ran our minds. Perhaps you're starting to understand.
:wave:
Post by: blownawaytheidahoway on August 26, 2004, 08:19:00 PM
Post by: **PIXIE DUST** on August 26, 2004, 08:47:00 PM
Under the benign influence of our republican institutions, and the maintenance of peace with all nations whilst so many of them were engaged in bloody and wasteful wars, the fruits of a just policy were enjoyed in an unrivaled growth of our faculties and resources.
James Madison
Post by: shanlea on August 26, 2004, 08:59:00 PM
Post by: Ottawa2 on August 26, 2004, 09:33:00 PM
Well lets see...
Shanlea: I think you are the type of person that my mother wants to talk to. She is interested in why the program did not work for some people yet did work for others.
CEDU did not work for you for some reason, and she would love to hear why that is. She has stated that she wants to start her own school and her first consern is to make sure that kids that do not need the program do not get sent there. In our case (my mothers and mine) my brother was a druggie and we had tried ever thing we could think of.
Please contact O5 she really want to discuess this with someone who is able to be calm and logical.
I Think that everyone could benifit from this. I belive that schools like CEDU will responed more to someone who has the ability to say, "This did not work for me because (insiert reasons)" And they are unlikely to responed to people who talk something like this "F*** YOU F****** B******!!!" Like a few pleople on this site.
As to every one else yes I do have the opption to leave this forum and guess what you have the oppsion to ingnore me if you want to.
Post by: shanlea on August 26, 2004, 10:47:00 PM
I know part of the problem was that I was not part of my own empowerment or therapy. There was no individual plan or work. They didn't even ask. In raps, there was no way I was going to lay my soul bare for people to misuse and exploit unethically. It really was a breeding ground for bullies.
I think part of the problem was that they assumed all the kids were liars and they knew the real deal. This offended me because I always answered honestly. I never lie to a direct question. Not because I'm so moral, but because I'm so transparent. I did not like or respect people who did not take what I say at face value or accused me of lying about my story. (I'm not talking about differences in perception.) I know that a lot of kids did lie or exaggerate and maybe the staff viewed all troubled kids as liars and manipulators. I don't know. I think a lot of staff had their own issues (especially the newer ones) and they would project it onto us. Like the family head who was an addict and he treated me like an addict because I experimented even though I easily quit months before CEDU and never went back. Nobody asked --ever--what was up, and I resented people just deciding what the issue was and rewriting my story.
I don't know if this part of CEDU has changed but they definitely were not equipped to deal with kids on an individual basis such as if you had ADD, Anxiety, Depression etc. You can't just medicate everyone or yell at people with anxiety or ADD. You have to be really thoughtful. You have to teach kids strategies to get through life self sufficiently with ADD or depression or whatever so they can make life work regardless of teh challenges they face.
On the other hand, I think we over label kids who are simply unique in an effort to fit them in a tidy box. The teenage years are years where experiemntation, rejection, rebellion, and independence forms, and it is a very mercurial time. Sometimes you just gotta ride it out.
If your Mom peruses the board at all, she will find a lot of useful info on different programs and a lot of it is disturbing. (I think Straight and its affiliates are the worst, and I couldn't fathom any parent sending their kid to a foreign country.) Honestly? And I will get my ass kicked here, I do think we need to help especially troubled kids, but I don't know how.
It is interesting to look at what different people complain about. Some seem trifling, others draconian.
Post by: MagicalGrunk on September 01, 2004, 06:27:00 AM
Post by: blownawaytheidahoway on November 29, 2004, 05:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-04 05:22:00, SON OF SERBIA wrote:
"I agree that being at cedu forces you to do a lot of acting and even more lying to keep the heat off your ass, i could never do it for more than a a few weeks without snapping at someone and and getting in trouble (i was always in trouble at cedu). Some of the students were obviously born to play the part, i think we called them LOOK GOODS. They used to really come after me in raps because I would never talk about my problems,I was dirty, and because i was such a pain in the ass to staff and older students. I would usually deny everything the Look Goods said about me, and then i would used their cop outs against them and they'd start crying. Then everyone would start screaming at me. I probably spent 2/3 of my entire stay (1 yr. 7 mo.) at cedu on restrictions mostly because of this tactic. And then I would refuse my work assignments and the LOOK GOODS got even more pissed off at me. Man I'm sure that I generated some of the LOUDEST raps in history.
Is knowing how to act at cedu an asset in the real world? No, certainly not. In a nutshell, "Looking Good" at cedu involves being completely dishonest, never standing up for yourself in the face of confrontation, accepting everything you are told without question, and allowing your self to be completely dominated and subserviant to people (staff) who are clearly no better than, and often times inferior to yourself. Also, most Look Goods upon a staff's command, were able to snap into a rage of self-directed hysterics, complete with tears, mucus on the floor, and drawn out screaming reflections about how much they hated themselves for being such aweful people. While this behavior might earn some points in another institutional setting like a mental hospital for instance, it is clearly a recipe for failure in the real world. This is because cedu teaches people to be sheep. In the real world the way to get ahead is to be a Wolf, or better yet, a Tiger. Sheep get eaten alive. No one likes being around crybabies who constantly pity themselves out loud.
I submit that cedu survivors would be most successful in the real world by doing exactly the opposite of Looking Good at cedu.
.
"
This is the one I wanted to quote and bring back to the table. What is it that this taught us? The fallout from being trained to think in a manner such as this where lying under premise of absolute truth or becoming more "real" while surrounded by absolute dishonesty, is a farce that Nixon could be proud of.
I'd like my parents to have sat in on ANY one rap while I was a student AS A STUDENT. Then they could see why didn't want/need to be there. Oh well. That's why my avatar is what it is...hand me that fiddle...er violin. :idea:
Post by: blownawaytheidahoway on November 29, 2004, 06:51:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 24, 2005, 07:25:00 PM
Same thing when the propheets got out - a bunch of acting - bad acting
The Summit getting out was when the cult switch really turned on - fake happiness, fake dancing - and the enthusiasm faded over the years and became more and more pathetic. Anyone else witness this.
The one thing that always makes me laugh is La,s fake crying - god that was funny.
Post by: CEDU 1974-75 on January 24, 2005, 07:49:00 PM
What can you say about "raps","propheets"&"dishpan"in the real world that will help you win friends and influence people?
Go figure...... :smokin:
Post by: Anonymous on January 25, 2005, 07:20:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-29 14:51:00, blownawaytheidahoway wrote:
Is knowing how to act at cedu an asset in the real world? No, certainly not. In a nutshell, "Looking Good" at cedu involves being completely dishonest, never standing up for yourself in the face of confrontation, accepting everything you are told without question, and allowing your self to be completely dominated and subserviant to people (staff) who are clearly no better than, and often times inferior to yourself. Also, most Look Goods upon a staff's command, were able to snap into a rage of self-directed hysterics, complete with tears, mucus on the floor, and drawn out screaming reflections about how much they hated themselves for being such aweful people. While this behavior might earn some points in another institutional setting like a mental hospital for instance, it is clearly a recipe for failure in the real world. This is because cedu teaches people to be sheep. In the real world the way to get ahead is to be a Wolf, or better yet, a Tiger. Sheep get eaten alive. No one likes being around crybabies who constantly pity themselves out loud.
I submit that cedu survivors would be most successful in the real world by doing exactly the opposite of Looking Good at cedu.
.
"
This is the one I wanted to quote and bring back to the table. What is it that this taught us? The fallout from being trained to think in a manner such as this where lying under premise of absolute truth or becoming more "real" while surrounded by absolute dishonesty, is a farce that Nixon could be proud of.
I'd like my parents to have sat in on ANY one rap while I was a student AS A STUDENT. Then they could see why didn't want/need to be there. Oh well. That's why my avatar is what it is...hand me that fiddle...er violin. :idea: "
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2005, 01:13:00 PM
See the posts on this issue
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2005, 04:47:00 PM
Post by: smallaxe on February 03, 2005, 03:41:00 PM
Post by: smallaxe on February 03, 2005, 03:43:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2005, 04:00:00 PM
That sperm-like smell the bleach left on your hands for the rest of the day when you had to wipe down those tables with far too much bleach.
Maybe the banging of your bathroom door late at night followed by some creepy guy strutting through your dorm with a flashlight...sometimes every 5 fucking minutes if some dickhead on the other side of your dorm went nuts earlier and threatened to cut on himself.
Speaking of 5 minutes...the Casey lights on Brad Navarro's truck aimed right into your teepee at 4 in the morning as he screams 5 minutes at the top of his lungs...
I still cringe when I smell Dial soap...along with Herbal Essences and original Barbasol.