Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones => Topic started by: Cypress on July 26, 2004, 08:09:00 PM
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Hi all!
It's been awhile since I've posted. Let me introduce myself to those of you who may not know who I am. While I go by the nick Cypress on this board my mother bestowed upon me the name Sara at my birth. I attended a Cedu offspring program many moons ago. Just two short years ago (Ginger, check me if I'm wrong with the dates) I attended the "annual" conference in St. Pete's, FL. It was at that conference that I introduced Cedu to the likes of "GregFL" and "KPickle". I found out about this conference from the Straight Board. You see, back then, Cedu didn't yet have a home on the Fornits site. Cedu wasnt even heard of until I meekly began to post. This group of people opened there arms wide and took me in. Not only did they listen to what I had to say but they made me feel welcome. It was after the conference in St. Pete's that the Cedu board was started on the Fornits site. I started as its moderator from the very beginning. Way back then, when I was the ONLY person onboard. And I waited. I knew eventually people would show up and begin sharing their stories. And gradually that is just what happened. We may not be as large or have as many participants as the Straight board but I'll be damned if I'm going to sit back and let my haven turn into nothing more than a useless Rap.
When this forum started, it was with the hopes of creating a welcoming environment for former students to feel safe in sharing their stories, good or bad. I desperately wanted to hook up not only with past friends but with other students who shared in the Cedu experience.
Quite honestly Ottowa, I could do without the likes of you. You have NOT been there like we have. You will NEVER know what we have been through. You have NEVER had your dignity ripped from you in the way we have. I will NOT sit here and listen to how well your son did or did not do at Cedu. How the Hell do you know? YOU WERE NOT THERE. If your son wishes to join our dialogue, I strongly encourage his participation. But in my eyes you are NOTHING more than a parent who gave up on her child. YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. I may not be the current moderator of this board but I feel I have the right, as its founder, to tell you to go to hell. You have voiced your opinion, we have heard. We spent too many years of our existence being force fed what is "acceptable". It is finally our turn to tell you to fuck off! We don't have to take it anymore. You can not put us on bans. You can not assign dishes. We don't have to be polite to you out of fear. If you come to OUR board then you come under OUR rules. If you don't like it, then leave. Let me show you the door. :wave:
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Hey Lady!. Long time no speak. Your forum here has grown into something to be proud of. I remember first asking you to be the moderator and first meeting you, and of learning that CEDU trumped Art Barker as the first tyrant to take the synanons techniques and use them against teenagers.
Great job you have done....Keep up the good work. This forum is progressing very well.
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To Cypress--I had to say a word because your comments astound me. Just calm down, you say you aren't afraid of this and that, but you sound hysterical with fear to me.
What can I really do to you--be rational about it--and then explore why you would have a hissy-fit like the one your post represents because someone had an opinion other than yours.
If the person in charge of the site e-mails me and tells me not to post, I won't, but otherwise, I will do so, if, when, and how I wish to.
Are you so frightened of a little disagreement---how do you manage in your day-to-day life? This is a rhetorical question, I don't expect an answer. It doesn't sound like a coherent one is likely either, and probably I should have just ignored your rant, but it had such a pathos to it, I had to say something. You don't need to get so upset.
I'll post when I want to post, bottom line, I am not frightened by you, and you shouldn't be so frightened by me. Do you really think that a fully functioning adult person is going to cring because you or like-minded people throw a few mindless insults her way? But go ahead and make yourself look small if you want to. Cute green smiley-face and all.
Again, if the moderator or owner thinks the site can't handle opposing views like mine, let's say so publicly, just have someone in authority contact me and I am gone.
Look, you attitude, coming on all angry and frantic at me for no reason, is frustrating, and if you want to fight, I will try to ignore you when I can and take you on if I just can't ignore what you say. Although I'm pretty good at ignoring things, getting better all the time here, so you don't have to worry about too much interaction if you continue on as you have starated.
If on the other hand, you want to communicate like an adult who is speaking to another adult who happens to have a differing opinion on a matter that is important to them both, I will always be willing to put the past behind and talk. That goes, by the way, for anyone who I have quarrelled with, here or elsewhere and who wants to to sincerely try for a new beginning. It is, as I say, what adults who are acting like real human beings, usually at least try to do.
[ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-07-27 06:52 ]
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Ottawa- by all means stay. Now, your good for a laugh! How easily you transformed from clinical, sterile superior "self-designated Fornits wannabe psychologist" to superbitch. Your true intentions are quite clear now. Either you accept our idea and therefore you are a failure as a parent, or we accept your idea and we are failures as human beings. Sorry, but the evidence shows you are in the wrong.
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Dearest Ottawa,
Good try, but I'm afraid your post will not silence me. My my how you sound like a family head trying to feed me a line of crap about how I'm feeling. Sorry to burst your little bubble dear O but I'm afraid there is nothing hysterical about me. I'm merely expressing an opinion that is different than yours. Does that qualify me for your hysteria diagnosis? Hmm. Exactly when did you graduate with your psych degree? Where did you study? What advanced degrees do you hold? If you are going to try and diagnose my behavior kindly provide me with credentials. Currently I am working with a psychiatrist who has thirty years of practice experience, a graduate of NYU with further study at the likes of Yale. But truly, dearest O, if you feel you are more qualified to treat me, perhaps I should come for an initial evaluation. Where exactly is your office located? You hold a medical license in what state?
I note that you completely failed to acknowledge anything I had to say in my previous post. How typical of a program parent. Attack my "hysteria" without acknowledging a thing I had to say. Perhaps that is because you have no response? After all, you can not argue with the fact that you have NEVER BEEN THERE.
But alas, I think I am wrong. I think you have been there. I believe now, with stronger conviction than last night, that you are indeed a Cedu plant. After all, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...You use classic Cedu techniques. Attack Attack Attack. As I stated before, I will not be silenced out of fear or intimidation. And yes, dear O, intimidation is just your ploy. But you see, I am much stronger than you realize.
And coming back to a question that has been asked over and over and not yet responded to truthfully. Why the fuck are you here? This is a board for those directly connected with Cedu. As I see it, that would not be a you as a parent (if we are to believe that little lie). If you do in fact work at Cedu it's time to come out of the closet. At least then you will have a legitimate purpose in posting.
I've offered it once, and I'll offer it again. See that little x in the top right hand corner of your monitor? That's the door out. Kindly use it. :wave:
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Greg! Great to hear from you. Thanks for your words of encouragment. For the most part I think this board is heading in the right direction. I'd love to see more students post but alas I believe that they are scared away by the likes of Ottawa. After all, we've already been through the program, who really wants it shoved down our throats again by a program "plant". I can only hope that she will get bored and move on over to the strugglingteens website where she would find a most welcome home. It just angers me. They have their board (strugglingteens) where we are not allowed to express opinions and yet they can wander over here and shit all over us and we have to just sit back and take it. I for one don't want to see this board turned into a censored pile of crap so I guess we have to just take Ottawa for now until she decides to move on. You know, show that we are "bigger" than they are.
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Don't get frustrated by her, Cypress.
Just so you know, Ottawa, Fornits is owned and operated as a public service by Ginger and I help her where I can, such as here describing the forum's position. Fornits is largely unmoderated for content. Each individual moderator sets the rules for each forum, and most have none. One of the few exceptions is the Seed discussion forum which I moderate, and my only rule is no personal attacks. Opinions are encouraged. On most fornits sites, you are free to post whatever you want, including personal attacks, including vile language, including tasteless comments. This is for a reason, unmoderated forums have a way of making sense out of a hodgepodge of ideas and opinions. When these thoughts are restricted, it becomes a one sided club, not a forum.
Just because your posts are accepted, please realize those that feel they were abused in "treatment" don't often take defense of their abuser lightly and you may not be treated kindly. This is the facts of an unmoderated forum with a topic such as a treatment center.
Welcome to fornits, all, and everyone make this forum great! This is where you will learn what really happened to you, find like minded people, discover new ideas and you will have a window into the mind of those that are oppositional to your conclusions.
Have fun.
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Cypress---Reason for my quick response now is that a friend who watches the site told me this AM to say that my post to you last evening was a little harsh.
Puzzled by the remark, I checked the post and found that somehow I had deleted the last paragraph, which I have entered now--the jist of it is that, notwithstanding your present attitude, I would be glad to speak with you reasonably about your experiences, if you decide that you want to.
No time for more now, but to touch on your queries, I am a student, not an independently practicing clinician yet, I am not at the site as a therapist, I am here as a person who may want to develop a behavioral/educational program of her own someday, looking for info.
Sometimes the ranting does get me frustrated, though I have never gotten so cranky and rude as any number of others--but as a general principle, if ever someone who has acted like a jerk in the past wants to try for a meaningful interaction, it's easy for me to put such feelings aside and move on when others are willing to try to be civil.
No time now to address your "why are you here?" question further than that--if you really want to know, ask again later--and, no, sorry, the green smily-face will not convince me to leave it I wish to be here.
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I'm so incredibly sick of people asking others where they got their degrees in order to validate the person's thoughts.
it's not about academia, it's about being able to observe other humans. it's sad how many phds and mds there are out there that have no idea how to help their patients.
it takes a hell of a lot more than just a degree; it takes knowledge through observation and a creative mind. i'm an artist who sits around watching people all day to observe their behaviors; i think that makes me more credible than some jackass who went through the motions of college to get a little piece of paper that tells the werld that they are ready to practice psychology, even though their studies didn't really teach them all of what they needed to know.
we value degrees far too much. societal programming's a bitch... i can teach myself better than any 4 year college program can teach me.. especially because i know precisely what i want to learn; a professor teaches me what s/he wants me to learn. i'm sick of having to jump through these stupid academic hoops... i'm not a circus side-show, goddamnit.
ok, i'm done ranting now.
thanks.[ This Message was edited by: mikehunt on 2004-07-27 09:23 ]
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On 2004-07-27 09:21:00, mikehunt wrote:
"I'm so incredibly sick of people asking others where they got their degrees in order to validate the person's thoughts.
Mike,
I respectfully disagree with you on this point. A degree can go a long way when it comes to being able to evaluate and diagnose an individual. Cedu is a prime example of such. These were inexperienced and uncredentialed individuals foolishly applying "therapeutic" models. It didn't work at Cedu and it most definately won't work on this board. While I understand your frustration, I will not be subjected to being labeled "hysteric" by a perfect stranger.
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you have a friend who watches this site? for what? so obviously, a Cedu plant. i hope they fuck your head up as bad as they did our's. that's what you deserve.
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To Cypress:
Now I get what was bothering you about my post that initially answered yours. When I said "hysterical" I was using the word only as it is used in common parlance, as a way of describing someone who is letting him or herself reach a pinnacle of being worked up emotionally--a colloquialism that is often loosely used that way.
You apparently thought I was trying diagnose you, something I never could and would do to anyone on the basis of an internet forum discussion, and in any event, I am here, as I say, as a parent and an individual who is learning things about a program, not as a clinician or a clinician in training.
I did not know that you were thinking of me as someone who is studying psychology--if that awareness was in your post, I missed it, and since I had never heard of you before, I did not even consider that you might have been investigating me in any depth, just that you didn't approve of me and my son on the basis of information in some quite current posts.
Following up on my brief post to you this AM, I have had a chance now to read several things you have written and to know a little about you, and on reflection, I am not comfortable with being involved in any viturperative give-and-take with you, it isn't likely to do much good and it certainly isn't going to be of much value to me.
Say you win, if you like, I just think it's the best way to go. I'll be at the site when I wish to be, but you can just react or leave me alone, at your own option, with no concern about retaliation,
The way I leave it: as always, if you want to have a civil conversation in which reasonable people can disagree, I would be more than happy to interact with you--just let me know--yes, I understand, don't hold my breath, but you never know what the future will bring.
The only other time I am going to address you directly, unless you are asking me a pointed question that bears addressing, is if you are just straight-out wrong about something factual (not opinion, but factual, like how many pints in a quart) and it is leading to a confused forum discussion.
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where the good Lord split ya!!!!! Buh bye.. :rofl:
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Ottawa is a CEDU mole guys! C'mon now it's just so obvious!!
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Ottawa is a CEDU mole guys! C'mon now it's just so obvious!! There is no son who attended RMA. She's full of shit! It's fucking hysterical!
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Ok, this is too hilarious to let go by. I'm a mole for CEDU with no real son, according to the theory put out at the moment by this poster.
Doesn't it occur to you that if this were the case, if I was here for some espionage or other devious purpose, and you wanted to hear from my son (the one you don't believe I have), I would just make one up, i.e. enter as him under Anon or some other registered name?
Or, since moles, apparently, according to this site's mythology, are all over the place, quite numerous at the least, I would get one of my fellow moles to enter as him.
When I have a far-fetched hypothesis about something, and we all do now and then, I think it helps in keeping connected with reality, to step back a bit and say to one's self "Is this reasonable, or are my biases (a blind hatred of someone, a desire to look clever, a wish to be important enough that big organizations are spying on you) clouding my judgment?
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Shut the fuck up! You are a fucking mole and you can't deny it!!
I don't care what you say with your craftily worded insults.
Your a fucking mole so FUCK OFF!!
If I'm wrong, then your one of the biggest pieces of shit a human being I've ever met!
Disgusting.
Why don't you go on to a holocaust survivor site and belittle them?
Why don't you?
Because we all suffered TREMENDOUSLY at the hands of CEDU and we're sick of you're belitling us and our issues.
Or maybe you're right and we're all wrong.
It makes me fucking IRATE how you can come on this site and
question and belittle our experiences!!
Like I said, I liken it to you going on to a holocaust survivor's site and belitling and downplaying their experiences.
You make me fucking SICK!!!
You and everyone of your mentality!!
I only wish I could blame it on your ignorance.
Now let me guess at your response:
"I can only think it hilarious how you could become so irate at one person's opinion. Maybe, you are frightened that you could be wrong and that CEDU was good for some people. You're experience is not indicative of the majority's experience. CEDU was a very positive experience for me and my son. Furthermore, you complain that I bellittle people and yet you constantly throw vulgar insults at me. It is clear that you are childish and immature. To answer the question of the holocaust site: Of course I would never go on to a holocaust site and downplay their experiences. But, it's hysterical how you can compare your experiences at CEDU to the holocaust. It seems to me that it is you who wish to live in ignorance."
You are transparent and predictable.
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Very nicely done, it had me laughing, you are a clever writer.
But I am not a CEDU mole and I think you know it.
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Bryan,
Ottawa is definitely offensive with her insidious disregard for the abuses of CEDU and the pain it causes. Who knows if she is a mole, she is obviously a provocateur, so maybe we should just ignore her.
I think she enjoys your vitriolic posts because she rationalizes her defense of CEDU and can just write you off as an angry schmuck. Now, we all know that if someone is abused or raped or beaten, we would all have GREAT difficulty dealing with a person who said it never happened. That is why many of us dislike Ottawa so much.
I've wasted a lot of words on her, someone who continually dismisses our issues and writes off our pertinent concerns.
In any event, perhaps she would be ideally suited for the business of CON Ed...excuse me, ed con, for CEDU.
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"Look, you attitude, coming on all angry and frantic at me for no reason, is frustrating, and if you want to fight, I will try to ignore you when I can and take you on if I just can't ignore what you say. Although I'm pretty good at ignoring things, getting better all the time here, so you don't have to worry about too much interaction if you continue on as you have starated."
So Ottawa, you claim I have no basis for being "angry and frantic". I think I stated pretty well in my initial post just why you tick me off. Why must you continually discount my feelings? Have you not learned a thing from your Cedu programming?
"If on the other hand, you want to communicate like an adult who is speaking to another adult who happens to have a differing opinion on a matter that is important to them both, I will always be willing to put the past behind and talk."
Please point out just what part of my dialogue is not "adult like". Are adults not not prone to yelling when getting angry? Do adults not use foul language? Please share with me exactly what makes for "adult" conversation so that I can be honored by your dialogue. After all, this forum is all about you and rules that you deem appropriate. I guess if the rest of us are going to participate we need to find out just what "agreements" we must follow so as to not offend you.
"just that you didn't approve of me and my son on the basis of information in some quite current posts."
Sorry, but when did I say that I don't approve of your son? I would actually be delighted to have him onboard.
And finally, I will ask again, simply because you suggest that I do so, why exactly are you here? What are your motives? Why do you feel that you fit in here? I have read somewhere that you are studying psychology and are interested in starting your own program. Is this correct? If so, what do you gain by discounting our experiences? How exactly does this method of yours gain you any insight into how to start your own program?
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Cypress,
Don't get me wrong, you sound like a fascinating character, in a number of ways which might or might not interest you, in your current frame of reference.
I just don't feel comfortable discussing anything else related to this forum with you publicly and will send you a private message.
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Look, it's entirely possible that Ottawa5 is a real live Program parent. I know of a good many of them who, years and even decades later, are completely in denial about the whole affair.
My mother's a good example of that. To this day she'll go on and on about how wonderful the Program was, what a shame it got shut down and how it saved all of our lives. Never mind that all 6 of us kids moved out of state at the first opportunity, none of us would ever trust her unsuporvised w/ our own kids even for a weekend, or that the only one of us who still thinks the Program saved his life has been in and out of residential and outpatient rehab (drug, drink, gambling... you name it) a dozen or more times over the last 3 decades. In Mom's perfectly Programed little mind, none of that has anything at all to do w/ the (faith based) "fact" of the Program having saved us all from certain death by drug abuse.
I know of a couple of others, too, who have made silly public statements, harassed Program survivors, etc. and who's own kids never darken their door either.
Babylon in all its desolation is a sight not so awful as that of the human mind in ruins.
-- Scrope Davies: Letter to Thomas Raikes, May 25, 1835.
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Then your one of the biggest pieces of shit a human being I've ever met! Like I said, go find a holocaust survivor site. I'm sure you'd get your sick thrills there. God- I pray you never become a psychologist and I sincerely feel for anyone you attempt to help. I pray for your continuing failure in that field and I hope one day you change and turn yourself into a human being .
Should we ignore her?
No!! That's what CEDU wants.
Let us continue to show the world what a belittling, ignorant, disgusting human being she is and let her be representative for the time being of all that we hate in the CEDU mentality. She is clearly a fucking mole whether or not she is aware of it or not!
While she continues to post the positive about CEDU- I'll continue to post the facts.
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Glad you think this is a joke. I'm sure you are making a great impression.
A man never stood so tall as when he stooped to help a little child.
You ever heard that?
You are fucking sick!
We are standing up for the downtrodden and exploited and you choose to defend the other side.
What the hell is wrong with you?
What made you hate the wrong people?
Don't you have any humanity or compassion at all?
Of course not. You will respond only to defend.
It is against your religion to ever admit you are wrong.
I know you are a mole and I know your story about your son is a bunch of bullshit.
With someone of your ethical standards anything is possible.
What the fuck is WRONG with you?
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On 2004-07-27 18:21:00, ottawa5 wrote:
"Cypress,
Don't get me wrong, you sound like a fascinating character, in a number of ways which might or might not interest you, in your current frame of reference.
I just don't feel comfortable discussing anything else related to this forum with you publicly and will send you a private message. "
Well well well. It would seem that you are throwing in the towel.
I'm not sure if this means you will be leaving us altogether or just simply ignoring me. But I have news for you Ottawa. As long as you continue to post on this forum I will continue to question your motivation.
And, once again, you have failed to acknowledge any of the points made in my previous post. You claim to not feel "comfortable" discussing anything forum related with me. Just why is that? It would appear that you are either running in fear, (which I sincerely hope is not the case) or you are just not equipped to respond to a person who will not be intimidated by your techniques.
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Cypress-- I am trying to be judicious in my approach, and also genuine, not always an easy balance.
Let me say something, one thing at least, though. The reason that I thought you were slamming my son was some comment you made in your initial post about the fact that you would not stand by (or something of that nature) and hear about his success.
Maybe I am wrong, it was not a slam, maybe you just didn't want to hear it. But his experience was real, my experience is real, and if a thousand people tell me it wasn't, it won't matter, our own experiences are true.
No one will take them away from us.
In my son's case, it is easier. His total current focus is going forward with his life, the whole CEDU experience was like something that launched him into his life as it is now, and he cares little about analysing how it happened. He is just grateful, and successful in personal and academic ways, and the best child a mother could have.
I want to recreate that experience for other people and so I must take on the burden of de-constructing how it happened. Whether you believe it or not, that is at the base of my motives of posting here. And part of that is understanding what has not worked for others (letting kids with certain diagnoses into emotional growth programs, for example).
That is the reason for my questions, again, whether you believe it or not.
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Ottawa,
In response to your private message...
Who the fuck are you to question my mental well being. Yes, I currently visit a psychiatrist. Monthly, for meds checks. How dare you patronize me with your new "concerned" attitude. If you are so concerned with how a little conflict in my life might affect my mental well being how the fuck did you expect your son to deal with all the Cedu confrontation he would have to face when you placed him in the program?
I will not sit back and let you even begin to discriminate against me because of any illness I have, be it mental or physical. And by using your "kid gloves" approach with me you are doing just that, discriminating. I didn't ask for differential treatment and I will not tolerate differential treatment.
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On 2004-07-26 17:09:00, Cypress wrote:
...You have NOT been there like we have. You will NEVER know what we have been through. You have NEVER had your dignity ripped from you in the way we have. I will NOT sit here and listen to how well your son did or did not do at Cedu. How the Hell do you know? YOU WERE NOT THERE. If your son wishes to join our dialogue, I strongly encourage his participation...
Ottawa,
Here is my comment to you regarding your son. You will notice that I have no problem hearing your son's story. I even encouraged his participation. I do have a problem with hearing your son's story as told through you. To you this may seem to be splitting hairs, but to me there is a huge difference between the story you tell and the story your son has to tell.
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Cypress--There is really no reason to strike attitudes--how about just assuming I am sincere, you can always change your mind about that, at your own discretion, later on.
And I have to ask: why have you even addressed me again today, with the attitude, the hostility, you could just ignore me, if the quality of your current posts is all the interest you have in any kind of meeting of minds. I said that I'd ignore you, stay away from you, and yet you sought me out again. But I'll try to answer some of your questions anyway, and hope things become clearer.
In terms of my experience with the school, I really was not too concerned about how my son would deal with confrontation for two simple reasons: for one thing, I knew nothing about psychological issues at that point, so I didn't know enough about it to have an opinion (kind of ignorant bliss, I guess), and for another reason, I was sort of instinctually aware that he was one tough kid who was pretty oppositional.
What would you have me say: the truth is that we both learned whole dimensions of living through our CEDU experiences.
The facts are that, post-CEDu, my whole family is happier than ever. For myself, I have a clear vision of what I want to do with the rest of my life and that vision is directly related to my CEDU experiences.
So of course, after having such a good experience, I would like to share it with others. Let me say it as clearly as I can: I am aware that not every other person had the same good experience that I had---I would like to understand why that is.
When I say that, all I often hear is that I must be brainwashed, my son must be brainwashed, I am a CEDU mole, my son is a coward, and on and on.
None of that is true but I do realize that these programs do not work for a lot of people. I would like to make sense of that reality.
That's all.
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Thought you were leaving never to return? Aren't you supposed to be on your way to fantasy land?
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Whoever you are, reports of my demise are vastly over-rated--I was only trying to avoid contact with a certain poster.
As it transpired, I was not even able to avoid that.
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Ahhhh, but you WOULD have been able to avoid it if you had done as you stated. Good God! You're like a little gnat buzzing around our heads...just wannna smack ya!! :lol: :lol:
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Cryptic. Very cryptic.
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We've got many survivors at Fornits saying they had a bad experience.
Then there is Ottawa claiming her and her son had a good experience.
Further, even though she claims to be here to hear the good and the bad. She continually ignores or minimizes the bad... but takes every opportunity to sing the programs praises.
She doesn't appear to me, to be the least bit interested in gathering information on what didn't work for you guys. I haven't heard her ask one person to describe in detail any particular incident. Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's what I do when I'm gathering research. Intead she appears to be more interested in provoking survivors to rage or 'hysteria'.
Ottawa said:
I want to recreate that (good) experience for other people and so I must take on the burden of de-constructing how it happened.
AND: "And part of that is understanding what has not worked for others (letting kids with certain diagnoses into emotional growth programs, for example)."
What did you think about that comment? Read it carefully?
Call me skeptical, but me thinks that's why she's really here. To make a case that all 'survivors' of CEDU were too severely damaged, and were poor candidates- wrongly placed. That you should've instead had psych dx's and placed in mental institutions. Har!
Suggestion: Don't respond to her unless it is to tell her, in specific detail, WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU, WHO DID IT, AND WHY IT DIDN'T WORK. WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, HOW, WHY.
Ya know, researchers are never objective. The researcher will always attempt to influence the outcome in order to prove their hypothesis. You'll probably be mentioned in her thesis.
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That's why this is all a big fucking waste of time. It's just like their website, can't hear or accept anything negative.
IGNORE IT AND IT'LL GO AWAY.
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Woops, I meant ignore the idiot. But it also fits with their philosophy. If they ignore all the bad that's been reported, maybe it will magically disappear.
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Ottawa,
I havent figured out yet why you are choosing to ignore me. I really am interested in hearing why you would want to ignore me. What kind of a threat do I pose to you? If its the whole "she's too fragile to deal with conflict" argument, I beg of you to get over it.
I have a few proposals for you. I acknowledge that you have every right to be here and post whatever it is you might like to say. I may not agree with what you say but I would hate to see the forum censored in any way. That being said, let me say this. The road runs both ways. If you choose to post on this board and I choose to listen to what you have to say, be prepared to receive a response back from me. I will not agree to ignore you. It is neither productive, nor realistic.
Next, there are no rules here on proper etiquette. No one here is trying to win a Miss Manners contest. I for one will continue to use foul language and post "angry tirades". It is how I choose to express myself. If you don't like it, frankly, get over it. As I've said before, this is our forum. We are entitled to express our views in any way we choose. I would suggest that you simply accept it. I have spent a bit of time re-reading a sampling of posts and have found that I was not so much angered by the content of your argument but by the manner in which you chose to strike back at posters. I will acknowledge that this is perhaps just how you express yourself. So be it. I do not agree with your techniques but there is not a damned thing I can do about it.
Moving on. I simply ask that you understand that those of us who have posted so far on this forum have had pretty negative experiences with the Cedu technique. You on the other hand have had a positive experience. But that is like comparing apples to oranges. You have never been a student at a program. You can not relate to where we have been and what we have survived. You say your son has had a positive experience and I guess we will just have to take you at your word since your son has remained silent.
I believe that the Cedu technique is inherently abusive. You on the other hand disagree with this belief.
History has proven man's viewpoints on what constitues abuse wrong on many an occassion. There was a time when slavery was not considered abuse. There was a time when children as young six in the workforce was not considered abuse. There was a time when cruel psychiatric treatments were not considered abuse. There was a time when domestic violence was not considered abuse. I firmly believe that eventually, submitting children to extreme psychological torment (aka Raps) will be considered abuse. I believe that depriving a child of their due process will be considered abuse. I believe that submitting children to endless hours of isolation will be considered abuse. I believe that restricting a child's access to education will be considered abuse.
If you are up to it, I would honestly appreciate hearing your response to this post. If, on the other hand, you choose to ignore it, so be it.
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Deborah--I am still trying to come to terms with your weekend post--actually made notes on it today between clients.
Here is the thing--you seem to have a lot of opinions on psychology and research in general--what is the basis of your understanding in this regard: reading, course-work, or what? Because, I have to say, a lot of it seems kind of simplistic, like someone who really is kind of fuzzy on the details but wants to be considered an authority just because she is bashing something.
Using your "oh my pie" food based metaphor, might I go so far as to say that you do not seem to know "beans from apple butter" about these subjects? This is only a hypothesis of course, one day I will get through your post and we can have a real food fight over it.
You know, when I first heard from you, your name was unfamiliar to me and I checked some of your previous contributions of which there are many, but wasn't one of them about how it would be if you were Queen? And now, in this post, you are instructing the whole forum on how to relate to me? Hmmm--how do you spell "delusions of grandeur"?
But never mind, what will be, and if people adherr to your advice or not, my life will go on--at least, I hope, long enough to address your post in some detail.
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On 2004-07-27 21:13:00, ottawa5 wrote:
"
Using your "oh my pie" food based metaphor, might I go so far as to say that you do not seem to know "beans from apple butter" about these subjects? This is only a hypothesis of course, one day I will get through your post and we can have a real food fight over it.
OK. Now you're just making me hungry.
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Sweetie,
I imagine you're having a reaction. It wasn't an "instruction", I stated it as a "suggestion".
So, what will the topic of your thesis be, Ottawa?
Will any of the "characters" you've encountered here be analyzed?
You apparently know what a metaphor is, but you can't figure out what I meant when I said, "If I were Queen"? I think it was more likely an indirect comment, implying that I'm a control freak. And probably in response to me suggesting you might have control issues from your traditional/catholic upbringing, which I still believe. And I might add, an over-undulged ego.
I'm good at slinging hash and grits. You are most definitely a behavioralist, I'm most definitely not. Do you really want to have that debate? I'm not that interested myself, and I don't see how it will further your stated purpose.
Wouldn't your time be better spent engaging the survivors here. You know, asking questions, confirming stories, showing a real interest in what happened to people and how they were hurt?
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Cypress--I like your style of laying down the rules of engagement.
They seem fair to me. I have never cared much if people use particular language, although I admit to finding it boring if it is just the same four letter words, over and over, with no creative content.
Similarly, I can't do much about the fact that I express myself formally--to be honest, maybe I could, but I'm not inclined to. So if I can put up with your language, maybe you can put up with mine.
I understand that you would like to hear from my son directly. In truth, I wish that I could bring him to this forum. I know I am his mother and biased, but he is one of the best people that I know in the world. Now that he is an adult, I try to not to interfere with his life, as I would be doing if I insisted that he come here. And he probably would, if I did insist, because our relationship now is that we try when we can to help each other. But it seems wrong to pressure him.
Just to explain how caring he is, let me tell you a short anecdote. He recently did a semester abroad in his college program. It was in a country where many drugs are legal and although he has had no problems with substance abuse since RMA, he sensed, I guess, that I was kind of nervous about how things would go for him there--I just didn't know, if he chose to dabble in these things that he would be OK.
So he set up a web page where he continually posted pictures of what he was doing, so I could go to it and check in on what he was up to--he posted pix there of various places he visited, his apartment, etc. And he did this without us ever talking explicitly about my concerns, he did it out of sensitivity and respect. He did it to give me security in the knowledge that he would manage well when he was on his own.
And he did fine there, of course, and is back at his home college in pre-med courses.
I don't know why the positive things that happened to our family through the CEDU experience did not always happen to other families--clearly they did not always.
And I am not saying that CEDU is perfect--if I were in charge, there are things that I would change, but I am saying that, in the whole emotional growth/ experiential concept, there were things that were very real and good for us, not like a cult, but like a growth experience.
I'd like to find out how to keep the things in this program that work and eliminate some other things that may be preventing certain people from connecting with what is good in the overall concept.
I'd appreciate your insights.
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Deborah does not speak for all of us. I agree that CEDU is a hell hole that needs to be shut down, but the way she comes across...i.e. "sweetie"...just makes me personally want to puke. And I've been fighting this fight a lot longer than she's even been aware these places existed. PLEASE do not take her as being representative of us all. She's real good at being all high and mighty and very often tries to make others feel that she is their intellectual superior and thus any good points that she actually DOES come up with are summarily dismissed.
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Deborah--Of course I would like to debate you: and I swear that I will get to your post soon, although not so soon, because I'm going to stay away from this blessed site tomorrow and catch up on about a dozen reports.
Word of caution: don't draw too many inferences from what you know of my background--I just might draw a few based on what I know about yours--then you'll see, perhaps, how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and how a few facts can lead to a multiplicity of interpretations.
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Now, that's Cryptic.
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On 2004-07-27 21:12:00, Cypress wrote:
I believe that the Cedu technique is inherently abusive. You on the other hand disagree with this belief.
History has proven man's viewpoints on what constitues abuse wrong on many an occassion. There was a time when slavery was not considered abuse. There was a time when children as young six in the workforce was not considered abuse. There was a time when cruel psychiatric treatments were not considered abuse. There was a time when domestic violence was not considered abuse. I firmly believe that eventually, submitting children to extreme psychological torment (aka Raps) will be considered abuse. I believe that depriving a child of their due process will be considered abuse. I believe that submitting children to endless hours of isolation will be considered abuse. I believe that restricting a child's access to education will be considered abuse.
Ottawa,
I have laid out my position on the faults I find with the Cedu method. (See above). You want to know what works in the Cedu method. First answer me this. What is it about Cedu that you like. What exactly do you want to replicate? Please be as specific as posssible.
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On 2004-07-27 22:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2004-07-27 21:12:00, Cypress wrote:
I believe that the Cedu technique is inherently abusive. You on the other hand disagree with this belief.
History has proven man's viewpoints on what constitues abuse wrong on many an occassion. There was a time when slavery was not considered abuse. There was a time when children as young six in the workforce was not considered abuse. There was a time when cruel psychiatric treatments were not considered abuse. There was a time when domestic violence was not considered abuse. I firmly believe that eventually, submitting children to extreme psychological torment (aka Raps) will be considered abuse. I believe that depriving a child of their due process will be considered abuse. I believe that submitting children to endless hours of isolation will be considered abuse. I believe that restricting a child's access to education will be considered abuse.
Ottawa,
I have laid out my position on the faults I find with the Cedu method. (See above). You want to know what works in the Cedu method. First answer me this. What is it about Cedu that you like. What exactly do you want to replicate? Please be as specific as posssible.
"
Sorry, that was me, I forgot to log in.
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Ottawa 5,
I'm assuming that your son is already in his 20's. You just said that your son had to set up a web page with photos, web cameras, maps, and daily reports, which he had to update every day, just so mommy would let him attend college abroad! MY GOD, YOU ARE A TOTAL CONTROL FREAK!!! I mean here the poor kid has an opportunity of a lifetime, and he can't even enjoy it because you have monitor his every movement!!!
Ottawa, I don't believe for a second that setting up a 24 hour surveilance on himself was your sons idea, especially since somebody had to be paying the bills for him to live and attend school overseas, (you of course). Knowing how much you worship cedu, I bet you even made him sign an agreement before signing the tuition check. Ottawa, you have your son so whipped that HE CAN'T EVEN GET LAID IN HIS OWN ROOM WITHOUT YOU WATCHING HIM!!! :lol:
Ottawa, you love cedu so much because they whipped your son into your own personal obedient little puppie, thus insuring your own place as the dominant influence on his life. I have no doubt that Ottawa5 will one day pick her son's wife for him, someone ottawa feels is worthy to hold his leash once she's gone. Ottawa, your son is NOT someone who never backs down or who always stands up For himself, HE CAN'T EVEN STAND UP TO YOU!!! Ottawa you are nothing more than a TOTALITARIAN CONTROL FREAK, it's so obvious now. Ottawa, this is not the site for you, but please stay, it's funny watching the bitch come out more and more as you realize that NO ONE HERE AGREES WITH YOU!
As for Ottawa's Son, it's no wonder why
"Mr. Self-Surveilance" cedu sheep doesn't post on this forum, WE WOULD TEAR HIM APART!!! you don't believe me Ottawa, then prove me wrong. BRING YOUR SPINELESS,PUSSY WHIPPED, CEDU SHEEP SON ONTO THIS SITE!!!
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Real quick, I'm just checking in when I should be working, but you have it completely wrong--or maybe it was the way I expressed myself--I haven't got time to look.
Here is what I was trying to say-- there was no surveillance device or any kind of monitoring real-time, involved, it was just a situation where my son would be really far away, for a long time, for the first time since RMA, and he sensed, I think, that I was, as many mothers in that position would be, nervous about the whole thing.
So he, without me even asking, set up this thing (I am not very computer savvy so I may be calling it the wrong thing) but I think it was a web page--anyway it was a place where he would frequently post pictures of things he was doing and places he was going, so I could sign on and share, in this limited way, what he was experiencing.
Now of course he could have done anything he wanted in the rest of his life there and I never would have known. And he probably did things I don't know about and that's perfectly fine and age-appropriate, and developmentally I really wouldn't want to know every move he makes as a young adult.
It's the fact that he would care enough to include me in the experience like that, at an appropriate level, the fact that he would consider that it would be comfort to me--these are the things that mark a truly geneuine relationship, and that's what I was trying to say to Cypress.
It was that two important things in this equation came out of our RMAS experiences: one was the strength in me to know, as you allude to, that he was growing to be a adult person, who had the right to make his own decisions, and in him, the kindness and insight to consider that it is hard for a parent to really feel OK with this, especially when there have been problems a couple of years back.
It's about love and connection without control, that's where we are, and what I ascribe to things that we learned at RMA.
Disagree with my belief that RMA skills are at the source of our good relationship, if you like (although I will point out that we were there and at least theoreticially in a better position than you to know this), but please be nice enough not to distort what I am saying--like I say,though, I don't know if you were purposefully distorting or if I wrote something confusing late last night.
I've got to go--be fair in my absence, now.
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It's going to be really interesting to see how this kid feels in oh, say 5 years or so. Ottawa, you have no idea how many of us came out of those places as good, straight, obedient "adults". Our parents were THRILLED with the results. Then, the PTSD started to rear it's ugly head. Completely different story from then on. I pray that your son will someday be able to forgive you. I havene't forgiven my father.
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Ottowa, what would happen if, for example, your son started smoking pot or engaging in some other activity that you're sure would lead him straight to Hell? Would he still have college funding? An unconditional, cheerful welcome at home? Or would you take the TOUGHLOVE hategroup line and start withholding support and affection in order to coerce the behavior you want?
The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force.
--Thomas Jefferson
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The convenient thing about these open-ended predictions that I see at this site sometimes is that a person never has to face the fact that of being wrong.
Why 5 years? If my son is doing great then, would you say, "Well O.K., I have to admit that CEDU works sometimes". But, no, I imagine that you would probably say "Wait until 7 years" or "He's still brain-washed" or "He's being controlled amd you're a bitch controlling him" or "He's a bully so of course he believes in CEDU", and on and on and on.
Wouldn't it be more parsimonious, at least more intellectually honest, in the face of all the evidence, to just agree that CEDU at least sometimes leads to good outcomes? Wouldn't it make more sense than shifting about looking to explain away anything that disputes this almost faith-based belief that CEDU can do no good.
I mean, I am willing to say that CEDU has not done good for a considerable number of people, and to search for reasons why.
Why is it so hard for you to admit that sometimes that CEDU training, education, indoctrination, whatever you would call it, had led to better functioning, relationships, self-image, etc, in at least some people?
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Forget it...you'll never get it, never see it. It's really sad. Peace to your son....he's going to need it.
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Are you Kidding? Do you really need her to answer? If Ottawa caught her son smoking pot, she would cut off his funds, make her son move back home,ground him to his room, make him attend AA meetings everyday, see a therapist 3 days a week, go to church every sunday,and forbid him from speaking to his friends or girls. As an added bonus, Ottawa will be constantly in her son's face bossing him around and reminding him that he is a drug addicted, stupid, selfish, perverted, evil,dirty, and aweful person, and that only she can save him. And if Ottawa's son makes one peep in protest against his maltreatment, Ottawa will no doubt back up her threats to call the police and say that her son beat her. Then he get's arrested & sent to county jail, where he will be anally raped as punishment for his insolence! (Ottawa will also consistantly remind her son of these "consequences" as well)
But it's all just part of the strict dicipline and "confrontational communication" that Ottawa learned from cedu, and loves so much.
Isn't that right Ottawa5?
[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-07-28 14:04 ]
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Parents have different responsibilities in their relationships with minor children, even adolescents, than in their relationships with adult children. At least in my world. And I think in the world at large, I mean that's why children can't move out of their parents' home on simple preference, sign contracts etc.
Oh, I know some people think that 8 year olds should be able to vote, that sort of thing, but I have no common ground with such thinking, it is even hard for me to imagine that people with such beliefs have ever spoken to a child.
So the question is: what if my son was smoking pot, the assumption is once in a while, I think, with no interference to speak of, with his functioning in all important ways. Would I cut off his funding for college, withdraw from him emotionally?
Well, if it is a legal substance then there is no question--he is an adult and can make his own recreational decisions. Not so much because I have a great respect for the law, or for pot, but because then there is not even a worry of future drug testing, arrests, etc to interfere with the proposition you put forward in terms of the question of possible harm.
I believe, however, that you are speaking about the current situation where the drug in question is illegal, but if you only have a small amount, it is of minimal concern in most juristictions.
Here also, an amount of use that does not a realisitc personal harm risk, I would not worry about it much, unless my child had some kind of addictive behavior history, something that we have not experienced. If he wanted to discuss it with me I would certainly give him my opinion that there are better ways to enjoy oneself.
And I would certainly not exercise what is clearly my own right not to spend money to send him to school over such a thing.
Now here is a more interesting question. What if he had a history of, say, heroin addiction behavior, and he chose to start using again while I was financing his college? He was getting himself into all kinds of trouble, failing his courses, which I was paying for, police stops, being belligerent and unkind to me.
My question to you: should I continue to pay for his college under those circumstances? I mean, there is no question that I would continue to love him, and tell him so, and since he was an adult, I surely could not control his behavior, and I would not be inclined to turn him over to the police, unless he was a clear danger to himself or someone else.
So what do you think I should do in that scenario, as far as financing his life style?
[ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-07-28 14:15 ]
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Cypress--I appreciate your post from way, way late yesterday, I want to answer you as specifically as possible, and do it well.
Right now, I shouldn't even be here, I am under the gun in my real life, so excuse the delay, I don't want to insult your sincere question with an off-the-cuff comment of some sort.
I'll get to it, either tonight or tommorrow night. I realize it's no big deal to you, but it's an interesting question to me, and I'd like to address it.
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Ottawa, if your son is shooting heroin then he is endangering his life.....OF COURSE A CEDU MOM LIKE YOURSELF WOULD CALL THE POLICE!!!
By the way for someone who claims she is not a cedu-mole, Ottawa5 sure spends a lot of time on this site. Think how much time she spends writing all these posts, which by the way, never give us a straight answer, just more questions! Now we hear that you're under the gun in your personal life because of all the time you spend here defending Cedu, MY GOOD WOMAN, YOUR COMPLETELY OBSESSED!
[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-07-28 14:24 ]
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On 2004-07-28 14:07:00, ottawa5 wrote:
Here also, an amount of use that does not a realisitc personal harm risk, I would not worry about it much, unless my child had some kind of addictive behavior history, something that we have not experienced.
Are you fucking kidding me??? He had no addictive behaviors but you stuck him in a program anyway???? Oh, I know, don't tell me. His BEHAVIOR was out of control.
Folks, this should tell you everything you need to know right here. Parents that don't like the way their kid behaves so DAMMIT...they'll MAKE em behave.
Go away Ottawa.........PLEASE just go away.
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On 2004-07-28 14:12:00, ottawa5 wrote:
"
Right now, I shouldn't even be here,
yeah. you keep saying that.....GO then!!!!
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To the Anon poster--
When a 15 year old kid is using every drug around and acting out in all sorts or ways and refusing to engage with parents or professionals to discuss why, there, in that moment, it is difficult if not impossible to say whether it's an addiction or a behavioral problem.
As most substance abuse counsellors believe, you have to get the drugs out of him before you can do much else. Something we could not do when he was on the loose, I admit.
So thanks again for your concern, I am not going away any time soon.
Funny, I was delighted, after he was back in the real world, to find an absence of addictive problems--I thought the fact that it turned out to be something more easily corrected like behavior, I was delighted. Well, you can't please everyone I guess.
I've got to go before any more irresistable Invisibles poof out of the woodwork!
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AHaha, the true bitch in Ottawa never allows her to leave without first getting the last word! :nworthy:
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Wait a minute. Does he or does he NOT have a drug problem. There seem to be some contradictions in your statements.
You say this: "unless my child had some kind of addictive behavior history, something that we have not experienced"
but then this: "When a 15 year old kid is using every drug around and acting out in all sorts or ways and refusing to engage with parents or professionals to discuss why, there, in that moment, it is difficult if not impossible to say whether it's an addiction or a behavioral problem."
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http://www.cedu2.com/center/index.php3? ... ons&quiz=3 (http://www.cedu2.com/center/index.php3?module=quizzes&page=questions&quiz=3)
http://www.cedu2.com/center/index.php3? ... ons&quiz=4 (http://www.cedu2.com/center/index.php3?module=quizzes&page=questions&quiz=4)
http://www.cedu2.com/center/index.php3? ... ons&quiz=2 (http://www.cedu2.com/center/index.php3?module=quizzes&page=questions&quiz=2)
These irritate me too. What teen DOESN'T display either most or all of these "symptoms"? This suggests to me parents that are not involved in their kids lives and are either unwilling or too incompetent to deal with adolescence and all the crazy behaviors that come with it. Which, btw, is a normal part of child development. It's part of the breaking away from the parents process and GOD KNOWS WE CAN'T HAVE THAT now can we? :roll: :roll:
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I can't stand the stench! Not to be offensive.
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On 2004-07-28 14:22:00, ottawa5 wrote:
When a 15 year old kid is using every drug around and acting out in all sorts or ways and refusing to engage with parents or professionals to discuss why, there, in that moment, it is difficult if not impossible to say whether it's an addiction or a behavioral problem.
No, but it's a dead certainty that the kid doesn't want or think he needs your help. And it's quite possible that he hasn't got a problem. You obviously have a problem w/ his behavior (or maybe just what you imagine his behavior to be when you're not around). But the kid doesn't want to tell you what's going on.
Here's the catch. There's only one way to change someone against their will. You have to break their will. No getting around that. And there isn't any way to do that without doing injury to the person.
And you'll never know what might have been had you not panicked and taken such drastic measures. If things go well, CEDU will be (in your mind, anyway) the salvation. If things don't go well, it will be his fault for not following the Program. At least, that's the way it goes for most parents, except for those who quit drinking the kool aid long enough to realize how rediculously badly they've been took.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.
-- Anonymous
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
It is wrong to leave a stumbling block in the road once it has tripped you.
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On 2004-07-28 13:40:00, ottawa5 wrote:
Wouldn't it be more parsimonious, at least more intellectually honest, in the face of all the evidence, to just agree that CEDU at least sometimes leads to good outcomes?
I don't see any evidence of that. I think that, just like every other outfit implimenting the Synanon model, it sometimes fails to utterly destroy an individual.
Look, I'm speaking from long term experience here. 5/6 of the kids in my family went through The Seed or Straight, Inc. All of us would supposedly have been deadinsaneorinjail w/o the salvation of the Program. All of our peers, who didn't get that salvation, were supposed to have been deadinsaneorinjail by now. But I've been watching this saga unfold for around 30 years and those dire predictions simply are not born out by reality. The fact is that Program vets are far more likely to be dead, insane, in jail (or having been in jail) and/or living marginally than our peers who didn't go through the Program. None of my old friends commited suicide. Not one, not anyone I went to school with, not one of my neighbors, including the really "bad" kids. At least half a dozen kids I knew in the program have offed themselves and another dozen or so people I know through our common experience w/ the program struggle w/ suicidal ideation at least occasionally.
The proof is in the pudding, lady. Of course, the boat has already left the dock as regards whether or not to put your son through a Synanon based behavior mod program. However, there's one thing that you could do (or not) to help ameliorate the damage. From hence forth, don't ever, ever attribute your son's success or accomplishment to the Program. No skin off you nose at all; simply attribute his success to him and not the Program. When he makes mistakes, don't advise him to work the Program. Just forget all about it unless he brings it up. Trust me on this one, it'll save him a lot of grief.
Everybody's lost just waiting to be found. Everyone's a thought just waiting to fade.
-- Billy Corgan of The Smashing Pumpkins
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On 2004-07-28 14:02:00, SON OF SERBIA wrote:
"Are you Kidding? Do you really need her to answer? If Ottawa caught her son smoking pot, she would cut off his funds, make her son move back home,ground him to his room, make him attend AA meetings everyday, see a therapist 3 days a week, go to church every sunday,and forbid him from speaking to his friends or girls. As an added bonus, Ottawa will be constantly in her son's face bossing him around and reminding him that he is a drug addicted, stupid, selfish, perverted, evil,dirty, and aweful person, and that only she can save him. And if Ottawa's son makes one peep in protest against his maltreatment, Ottawa will no doubt back up her threats to call the police and say that her son beat her. Then he get's arrested & sent to county jail, where he will be anally raped as punishment for his insolence! (Ottawa will also consistantly remind her son of these "consequences" as well)
But it's all just part of the strict dicipline and "confrontational communication" that Ottawa learned from cedu, and loves so much.
Isn't that right Ottawa5?
[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-07-28 14:04 ]"
WOW,
That sounds EXACTLY like the way my own mother is. word for word. What the fuck, man? What the fuck?
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Antigen, wise words.
Bryan, SOS, et al
Listen I have very strong feelings re: CEDU. I understand the intense anger directed at Ottawa for her seeming disregard for the abuses and ineptitude perpetuated by the school.
However, to attack her son whom we do not know and other aspects of her life that is blatantly suppositional reflects badly on everything we are trying to accomplish. Especially vile was the finger comment.
I could just say what the hell, she's on the wrong "side", so I don't give a damn, but it really undermines our own purpose and it just ain't right. You don't tell reps of a "school" to stop being abusive and then perpetuate the same behavior. Anger can be a strength, but abusiveness is not.
OK. Go ahead and flamebroil me.
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so obvious that you can't stand the truth....
why don't you quit attacking people and answer me? is it because you can't attack pure facts? so you can't get the last word in? come on now, i'm very interested in what you have to say about the physical "neglect" i suffered from when i was there..............
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That's the problem with Ottawa. She doesn't really address all the wrongdoings and the fact that the same types of things come up repeatedly. The medical neglect you experienced is one typcal example.
shanlea
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To the new poster--
I am not avoiding you, it just takes more energy, I think, to begin an interaction with a new person than with the known quantities.
I think your post is gravely important, the health issues interest me a lot--here is the deal I am a psychologist in clinical training, and I have some really disturbed people I am trying to help at the moment---I should not even be here now, but I'm on a break--if you are still interested in a reply, I will be back tomorrow late,
You are right--I need to learn to care less about what some people think and not bother to defend myself even when it's amusing--this is a good place to learn to be more selective about the process.
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Thanks for your response--why do I have the impression that I did not get through to you.
Sorry, I can't "trust" you on the interpretation of what is best for my family; sorry you had bad outcomes in yours.
Can't you see that I've got to trust our own experience over these kind of ominous warnings that have not been true for us or others we know. Not saying you're wrong about your own experience, just that other outcomes are possible too.
Would love to talk more later, lady, attitude and all.
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In reference to the time I've been spending here, it's great fun, interesting and informative, but I think you are right, it can easily get to be a bit much.
So that may please you, Bryan and others to no end, since you'd like to drive me out.
Ironic that it is my own schedule, not your insults that may ultimately slow me down.
Slow me down, maybe, but not stop me--I'll be back.
Hey, before I go: you tell me one question you asked and I didn't answer--if you ask me something that actually has a straight answer and I can give it without compromising someone else's privacy, I guarantee that I will give it when I come back.
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Face it Ottawa! You love it here! Why, I do not know, but I am beginning to wonder if you are starting to question CEDU more.
I will ask this, if you have any genuine sincere purpose, why are you here? And, could you please try to have more openness, compassion, and less condescension in your posts. I know it is difficult because we all get frustrated by you, but it would be nice.
Shan
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On 2004-07-28 19:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Face it Ottawa! You love it here! Why, I do not know, but I am beginning to wonder if you are starting to question CEDU more.
I will ask this, if you have any genuine sincere purpose, why are you here? And, could you please try to have more openness, compassion, and less condescension in your posts. I know it is difficult because we all get frustrated by you, but it would be nice.
Shan
"
"Condescension" I love that word. It places all of Ottawa's Reasoned arguments in a nutshell.
I see a lot of postson this site where people are saying that they would like to leave the hell-hole that the US has become with Bush's war on terror (& drugs) At the same time there are some Canadians who in sucking up to Bush would have Canada become the 51st State. Those same Canadians seem to want to emulate Stateside coercive treatment programs in Canada ( a la AARC). What I'd like to see is more of the best ideas of the US adopted by Canadians --Liberty, civil rights ideals and so on, not the worst -- coercive Nazi style youth treatment treatment -- that Ottawa5 seems to want.
So I'm going to be a little condescending to Ottawa5. You're only a graduate student barely learning the basics of psychology. And it is obvious that, in your case, a little learning can do a lot of harm. I would suggest that instead of the artsy-fartsy behavioural and counselling psychology you have concentrated on, you take some hard science courses in pharmacology and then particularly that you read and absorb the teachings of Alexander Shulgin and Thomas Szasz. Then, when you have absorbed what they have to say you should experiment with LSD and Psilocibin mushrooms to deal with your obvious obsessive compulsive disorder. Then talk to your son about having some assistance from MDMA to deal with the PTSD he must be suffering from his experiences in CEDU.
Peace
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Cypress--
I'll try to be specific about what the CEDU parent program was like for me, of course I was not in the student parts of the program so I will rely on what my son and others have told me. I'll try to explain what I think is behind the power of these programs.
From what I've been told, key concepts that are played out in the parent workshops are woven into the student curriculuum as well so that when I talked to my son about ideas like "The I and the Me" or like the Dreams workshop, he was able to immediately know what I was talking about.
How these ideas were gotten across (multi-day workshops for me, marathon Propheets for the students, for example) was different but apparently the ideas were very similar.
Now I had never been to any kind of workshop before I went to these, and I went rather reluctantly because at the time I viewed my son as the problem--that is another personal parallel, he started out viewing me as the problem and through these experiences we came to understand that we were both part of the problem we were having and part of the solution to them.
So here is what I liked about the workshops: the experiential nature of them: actual exercises that made the concepts real and tangible; the opportunity to interact with other like-minded parents in an emotionally enriched way (I still stay in touch with people who were strangers to me when I met them at one of these things); the uniqueness of the setting and ideas---some workshop leader could confront a parent and make them look at themselves in a new light in a way that many of us, as priviledged people in the world, are not often confronted.
There is nothing more important to most people than their children--oh you can say that parents do it wrong sometimes, and you're quite correct, but I'm talking about feelings. At these workshops, people poured out honest emotion like you would not believe and to see people in such a genuine state was a new thing for me.
All this, the experiential approach, the emotional piece, the uniqueness of the occasion and the setting, for me, led to a belief in the possibility of change. Just really knowing that things can be different.
You can call it "brainwashing" if you wish, but really that's just sticks and stones, because if what happened there is brainwashing, then every time we are exposed to a new idea and decide to do something differently we are brainwashed. Most good parenting is pretty much brainwashing if you define brainwashing this way.
For example, after one of the Dreams experiential exercises, I remembered that when I was little I wanted to be an artist, but because I am kind of scholastic and for other emotionally related reason, my life went off in another direction. I literally hadn't drawn or painted anything since I was about 9, but it was like a wall came down and suddenly it was possible. Within a few weeks, I had had my sketches mistaken for the work of a professional artist. And a couple of months later, I had done a painting in some little art class I found and because my husband liked it and wanted it in his office I took it to get it framed, and another customer wanted to buy it.
Same with writing poetry, I hadn't written for years, and after one of the workshops, it was possible again, just in an instant of belief in the possibility.
None of this was magic or hypnosis, and not in my mind at least, brainwashing, it was learning to be able to let down resistance to a more complete way of experiencing the world.
I could tell you other much more remarkable stories than this that happened just to people I know after these workshops, but we took a pledge not to talk about other people's experiences publically, unless they specifically permit it and so I'll leave it at my own experience.
All I can say is that there is now a connection in my life between my thinking and feeling lives that was not there before and which is unshakable, in a way that passes for strength in the world.
Before these experiences, I would never have had the courage to speak about these things and my own vulnerabilities to anyone, much less on a site where many of the participants are like wild dogs and this kind of disclosure is like raw meat to them. Now it matters not at all, because I feel internally integrated and content with my feelings and my life.
Now, of course the difficulty in terms of the kids is that they really do not want to be there, so it is a stretch to think that they are going to immediately celebrate emotional growth, because they are not at all interested in opening up, they in fact frequently want to be less open, in order to hide things from staff.
There has to, over the course of the program, be a way to get them out of their comfort zones, if they are going to take a new look at the way they have been living and even consider the emotional side of their lives. Because the underlying premise is that it is this ignorance of the worth of their own emotional selves that is at the heart of their self-destructive behaviors. The rather sensible idea is that if you love yourself, you will not do terrible things to yourself.
This is at the heart of why I just don't see how you can do the whole thing without some degree of coercion although we can certainly agree that some of the stories told here suggest that at times, there has been too much, and the wrong kind, and sometimes, coercion without caring and that can't work.
So, for example, according to my son and others, the overnight propheets (which you would probably call sleep deprivation, although he said everyone he knew liked them because caffeine was available) created an event in which there was more possibility of letting guards down and allowing for looking at things in a new way. He says that the propheets were his favorite part of the whole program and I've heard many other people say so too. And in a bunch of different ways he had experiences that paralleled mine in terms of opening new possibilties for him and helping him understand why he was doing destructive things to himself. And being able to change.
It also made him fearless--he had always been reckless, I think, but only to run from his fears. Like me, now, he does not care if others approve of his experiences, is at ease with who he is, is content. Don't make the mistake of thinking that he is not at this site because he is shy or timid--I've heard him speak face to face about his experiences to some very hostile people--he simply can't see any point in talking to people who have closed minds and closed hearts--he sees the site as a waste of time, and cannot understand why I would bother to be here (that should please Son of Serbia, Bryan and Company).
Now see, here is what I think is another important piece to the puzzle of why people have different experiences in the program: with my son and his friends, there was in all cases some kind of close bond formed with a counsellor for at least part of the program, or in different parts of of the program with different people, and I have a sense that that has something to do with the success rate too. That's why I think caring, insightful staff is crucial and maybe that just didn't happen with a lot of you guys but it did with us.
And I never heard any of the really egregious stories that I've heard here, maybe we were just lucky and the staff and the ideals of the program were just right when we were there. If that is the case, it doesn't mean to me that the programs should be abandoned, but they should certainly be modified.
Also, I have a sense that some of the schools may, or may have at times in the past, let in kids who were not well suited for this kind of program--I'm still formulating that one, so I'll let it go for now.
Well, I don't mean to be pessimistic, but I doubt that I have explained this in a way that is going to mean much to you or anyone else at this site, but that's the way the cookie crumbles as we say when using one of poster Deborah's food-based metaphors (Deborah is the only person in the world with a longer post than me, I think, and after this one, I will likely take the lead).
Some of you have had such bad experiences that I don't think there is a way to talk about any of this that would make sense to you.
Maybe someone unbiased will read this sometime and it will mean something to him or her. It is not impossible.
By the way, my last workshop was with Mel Wasserman, who came to Idaho from California for one last workshop before he sold the whole thing to the Brown Schools. If it makes you feel any better he really did beat up the parents emotionally pretty well, there were people crying all over the room all the time. So we had a tiny bit of pain too, and in my own case, enough to get a glimpse of how hard the program must be for my son--I was really proud of him that he chose to stay and finish when the time came that he could have walked down the road and never gone back.
So there you have it, I hope this is what you wanted, I will be glad to talk further if you would like to.
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To Hamilton(just like a bad penny)f:
I admit that I have much to learn about psychology and a number of other things but I doubt very much that I am going to learn them from a socialist-leaning-America-bashing-drug-obsessed-lawyer-of-sorts from Canada. Thanks but no thanks, I'll trust my own sources.
I've rather had all the political drivel with you already, and it is too late and I am too busy to go through that again.
If you try me another time, I might be game though--you are just way more interested in the whole question of legalizing drugs than I am--so you always seem like of peripheral to my focus--don't get me wrong, as a libertarian, I think I've told you that, in my view, the drug war is one big mess--that is about the only thing we are likely to agree on, so perhaps it is something to celebrate. [ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-07-28 23:08 ]
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Ottawa,
I asked you in my previous post to state what you like about Cedu. You gave a lengthy response that I find rather revealing.
Based on your response, it appears that the only thing that you have any kind of first hand experience with is with the parent workshops. While you sing the praises of your workshop, you readily admit that your workshop was not like a propheet given the lack of sleep deprivation. Why exactly did Cedu not expose parents to that lovely aspect?
Your post only justifies what I've said before. I don't believe you are qualified to sing the praises of Cedu based on the simple fact that you were never in the program. A few parent workshops are a far cry from living Cedu day in and day out.
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Also, while your workshop with Mel was emotionally difficult you can bet that they did not employ the more verbally/emotionally abusiev aspects that were the hallmark of the propheets for students. There is a difference between confrontation and verbal abuse.
But hey, if you got something good from your experience, the parent tailored Dream exercise, then I'm not going to trash that specific experience. It's always good to rediscover talents... But that is still a tailored experience. It's not the full frontal assault that students experience.
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What did you think? That I'd been enrolled in an emotional growth school myself? Of course, my only experience is in the parent part of the program!
But from talking to my son, and other kids, I've seen how the underlying premises of emotional growth are behind both dimensions of the program.
Well, I gave it my best shot. If it makes you feel any better, I was sleep deprived during most of my advanced workshop because I couldn't sleep for writing poetry and being kind of scared of Mel, who was a most cranky man at times. Right a lot, I think, I don't know how, but not very pleasant.
I'm sorry you didn't experience any of what I'm talking about, it was very powerful and very positive for me, my son, and the rest of our family. I believe that you didn't, though, if you had experienced even a small part of it, I think that something in my very, very, very long post would have touched you in such a way that we would have had some amount of common ground.
I've got to trust the people I know personally, know in many aspects of the way in which they live and feel on a daily basis. These people got the same kind of growth out of the school program that I got from the parent part.
I continue to believe that, for some kids, the emotional growth curriculuum is life changing, in a good way. I wish that a program could be designed that did not make some people react as you have and ruin any chance of your benefiting from what the underlying principles have to offer.
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I don't believe you are who you say. I think you're one of those Lon Woodberrys trying to sabotage these forums.
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You are still putting the onus of CEDU's abusiveness on us. It is the way we react instead of how CEDU acted. I will not go on another long diatribe about its specific abuses as I already have and you don't give a rat's ass. ::argue::
Shan
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To the recent Anon poster: You know, when I first came to this site, I would have tried to reason with you, to convince you that I am an independent person looking for answers.
I don't feel that way anymore. People who make these kinds of comments don't want answers, they just want to fit everything they see in to their "Spy vs. Spy" view of the world.
Belive what you what to believe--if you can't see what is real, I can't help you. [ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-07-29 19:32 ]
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That was me posting Ottawa, and I think I can delineate what is real. I never thought you were a "spy." Basically because I generally believe what people tell me unless proven otherwise. You said you were a parent who had a good experience.
My problem with you is that you seem to be totally desensitized to the very real, integral problems that existed at CEDU and the pain it caused. Your letter to Tiffany was the first post to show any measure of compassion. Yet, you still view her experience as an isolated incident rather than a systemic one. It was rampant.
This is our safe haven to vent and be proactive about our experience. For you to deny it is not only insensitive but actually, cruel. It would be different if you listed your positive reasons and then moved on. But to continually discount what happened to us and to the people around us is wrong. Remember this didn't happen to Joe schmo we don't know, this happened to US. I really hope you don't treat your future clients this way.
Before you start to cast doubt on my ability to grasp reality, maybe you should enlarge the scope of yours. I haven't made a single comment about whether or not your son's experience was positive. I have never met nor spoken to him.
But I do know that CEDU was not only the wrong placement for me, but that they manipulated my parents and myself in an unethical manner, that they used emotional and verbal abuse in the raps and propheets, that their school (at that time) was embarassingly sub standard, that the staff had inadequate training and expertise, and that the school inculcated an atmosphere of fear, anxiety, and bullying.
Also, from my own experience, I know that my past was purposely misconstrued and exaggerated by the staff. I know that they often didn't resolve the real issue but fabricated or honed in on a lot of trivial miscellany. I know that medical issues were often mismanaged. It happened to me and it happened to others.
If it makes you feel better to think we don't know what is "real" than perhaps that is an issue that you need to explore.
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Shanlea--
One thing that we can be sure of is: we cannot change the past. I think that this is something that both you and I can agree upon.
What we can change is the future.
Perhaps you are right, perhaps you ended up at a bad school or one that did not meet your needs, perhaps, for whatever reason, you never saw the gains that my son and I saw in his program.
I will not deny my own experience, but I am perfectly willing to accept that you are the best expert on your own.
So what are you going to do about it? I guess that you can troll around on a site like this one, looking for things to be mad about.
Or you can focus on the fact that you have parents who cared enough to try to find a program to help you in whatever difficulty you were having. OK, maybe they picked a program that did not match your needs, but they tried, they cared enough to pay a whole lot of money to help you.
Do you know how many people would love to have parents who cared that much?
I see what you're saying: there have been procedures and approaches used in some schools, at some times, that were not good. Believe me, if I am ever involved in such a program, this will not stand, where it has, indeed, occur.
But you can't go back and do the whole thing over again--is it not possible that there were things that you did learn from your program in spite of its clumsy approach and misdirected interventions?
The question remains: So what are you going to do about it? Now? Where you are today?
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We all have to deal with our past, and I am dealing with my real thoughts about CEDU now. Again, your post trivializes what I saw and experienced. What will you tell a rape victim: try to get the best out of that experience?
Talk about trolling around these posts and talk about yourself. I'm not looking at stuff to be mad about. I am being honest and exploring what CEDU meant to me for the first time. I don't know what the heck you are here for but the pleasure of telling us that we don't know what real is.
For now, this site is a good place for me to talk about my experiences with others who have been through it. This is the first time since leaving CEDU that I have been able to do this.
Also, I see it as a proactive forum to get people thinking about these schools and questioning their decisions to send their children there. And guess what? Some parents have decided NOT to send their child there and others have pulled them out.
You don't know my parents, so don't make any inferences there. But let me tell you this. In many cases that I saw, spending tens of thousands of dollars was easier for parents than actually parenting their children. So don't tell me that money = love. For my parents, raising a child was too mundane for their adventurous tastes. Years of parental neglect and other issues you have no business knowing culminated in me being placed at CEDU. I will say this, I was not a liar, a druggie, or a danger to anyone. I never even shoplifted. But I did need help and attention, and also went through some pretty traumatic experiences that affected my wellbeing.
When my parents placed me there, they did so at the advice of a counselor who thought it was a real school that provided therapy. She did not know anything about it except that it had a lovely brochure. People need to be educated about the exact nature of these schools, both in terms of philosophy and practice.
No shit my parents cared about me. They were lousy parents but they were good people and I am very close to them now. In a way, I was even close to them then because we enjoyed eachother's company and had some common interests. Having children of my own now, I can appreciate how difficult it is to be a parent. So I'm not into bashing my parents when they didn't have the personal resources to help me at the time. I can't tell you how unbelievably supportive they have been in my life since then.
I think its interesting that you you keep saying you won't deny your experiences when I, for one, have not denied YOUR experience. But I sure as hell am not going to have you deny mine.
--Shanlea
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Look, Ottawa knows ALOT of details about CEDU. Much more than nay parent I have seen. I think Ottawa is full of shit and just trying to defocus the forum (and doing a pretty good job of it too).
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Look, Ottawa knows ALOT of details about CEDU. Much more than nay parent I have seen. I think Ottawa is full of shit and just trying to defocus the forum (and doing a pretty good job of it too).
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To some extent, I feel like I need to keep replying to O to address her denial of the school's abuses. I know she doesn't get it, regardless of her pseudo-intellectual, rationalizing bullshoot.
I was starting to think the same thing...most parents seemed pretty clueless to me when I was there. Are you a staff member? If so, you would know more about this.
Also interesting was her equating money with love. (Sending your child to CEDU and spending $$ means they care.)
Should we just ignore her?
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On 2004-07-29 19:31:00, ottawa5 wrote:
To the recent Anon poster: You know, when I first came to this site, I would have tried to reason with you, to convince you that I am an independent person looking for answers.
Trouble is that we're no longer a bunch of naive kids operating under extreme stress w/o the time and presense of mind to reason out and challenge what we're told to believe.
You're getting the answers you say you want. We're telling you about everything you ask. You simply don't seem to want to accept what we're telling you.
I was never in CEDU. But I've learned enough about their Program to understand the fundamental similarities among all of the Synanon based programs.
Here's the program, in a nutshell.
Starting w/ a person who, for whatever reasons, does not want or believe they need to change their ways, how do you make them change anyway? Well, first you isolate them from all influences over which you have no control. This would include family, friends, newspapers, television, etc. any kind of input or stimulation other than what the Program providers want the person to have.
Then you inflict some dominance rituals. These often include things like surprise midnight abductions, strip searches, extended and provocative interrogations, etc. Show them who's boss, ya know?
From that point, it's just a matter of keeping the subject fatigued, confused, a little frightened and constantly emmersed in an atmosphere of indoctrination. Eventually, even a grown person w/ strong convictions (such as a military officer in a POW camp) will break down and accept the indoctrination. But it doesn't always last forever. And many people, once they have time to reflect on what happened to them, when they see through the slight of mind that has been worked on them, are quite resentful about it. Worse yet? A major componant of the Synanon method is that every inductee, in order to progress closer to the door, has to work the program on others.
Put yourself in the shoes of any of those fellow hikers who took part in chiding and belittling Ian August in the final days and hours before his death. At the time, they probably all sincerely believed that Ian was faking and that they were helping him to become a better person by not bying into it. But now they know the truth. Now they have to live, for the rest of their lives, w/ the knowledge that they stood and laughed and scolded this boy while he died.
But that, according to Program proponants, is just one of the risks we must face in order to save the children. God! But I hate the sanctimonious sadistic bastards who are often found waving that banner!
Power concedes nothing without a demand. The limit of oppression is determined by the extent of the endurance of the oppressed.
--Frederick Douglas