Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones => Topic started by: shanlea on July 16, 2004, 11:10:00 PM
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Various posters have shared that they have suffered PTSD years and years after CEDU. Even posters who are "successful" in many areas say that CEDU has done serious harm to their relationships and has affected them in ways that still impact them today.
What I am trying to discern is how? How specifically has it affected you guys? How does the PTSD affect you and how do you trace it to CEDU?
I AM DEFINITELY NOT UNDERMINING ANYONE'S EXPERIENCE AT ALL. I have been very forthcoming about what I think of CEDU. I'm just trying to make sense of CEDU's impact on my life better and also other earlier events in my life. Sometimes people articulate exactly what I'm feeling but didn't know how to express.
I know that when I split CEDU I was totally unprepared for the real world because I still thought in terms of the black and white rules, bans, and lingo of CEDU. I was trying to "live in agreement" even though I split to get away from it. I had a hard time with friends expecting them to be totally honest and living in accordance to CEDU's arbitarary set of values. All of this was TOTALLY unconscious. Anyway, that is one example.
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My friends keep me sane. I spend good time with them and feel comfortable with them, but we just don't talk about things. I would like to have a "CEDU friend" that acts normal as well, but oh well. They're good people and good friends, which matters.
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What I am trying to discern is how? How specifically has it affected you guys? How does the PTSD affect you and how do you trace it to CEDU?
6 years in and out of psych wards.
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But how do you know it's from CEDU? Again, I am definitely NOT defending the school. I'm wondering if you already had psych issues that the school either couldn't help or made worse b/c of its lack of qualifications and harmful techniques. And because the root cause is never dealt with.
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On 2004-08-02 09:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"But how do you know it's from CEDU?
I think it's probably just about impossible to answer that question as regards any one individual. I know plenty of people who struggle with it, with or without professional help, for years and never get a difinitive answer.
But if you look at a large population, you can see a pattern.
First, what common characteristics do the people who enter these Synanon based programs have in common. Some are heavy drug users, some are not. Some tend to be violent or angry, but many do not. Some have been in trouble w/ the law, been permiscuous, etc. but others have not. Just look at the "signs" of [fill in your preferred dx here] that each program uses in their promotional material.
Here's CEDU's http://www.cedu2.com/center/ (http://www.cedu2.com/center/)
Change of friends? Oh My! No, dear GOD, PLEASE don't tell me my teenage kid is making new friends! That's just tooooo scary!!!
Change in fashion preferences? Trying out new kinds of music?
You get the idea. The intake criteria describes your text-book, typical, average, Joe Normal teenager.
The difference between these teenagers and the rest of the teenage population is only that their parents and/or the juvenile courts of the jurisdictions in which they live have bought into the Program's marketing plan. That's the only consistant comonality that I know of.
So then, all you have to do to determine which after effects are likely attributable to the Program is to compare the general population w/ Program vets. Does everyone else have recurring nightmares about some traumatic event in their teen years? I've never heard of such a thing. I think just about everyone's had at least one nightmare where they're naked in front of their school classmates and profoundly embarrassed, but that's about as bad as it gets. What about rage problems? How about families of origin scattering like pool balls? Chronic, sometimes debilitating depression? Sucicidal tendencies? Confrontation issues?
Not that Program vets are the ONLY people to have these kinds of challenging issues throughout life. God knows there are a lot of people who do. Otherwise, there would be no studies or interest in these topics and terms like PTSD would not exist. But I'm pretty sure we have more than our fair share.
I have found that the best way to give advice to your children is to find out what they want and then advise them to do it
--Harry S. Truman
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Thanks for the post, Ginger...that is what I'm trying to get at.
I'm just trying to understand. Objectively speaking, had I never attended the program, I would probably think it was a viable option. I mean the literature looks promising; now I know that it is all misleading. That is why I want more people to understand how inportant it is to do deeper research and look beneath the surface. I know for a fact my father, at least, would never have sent me there had he had known what the "therapy" consisted of...
I think one of the worst aspects of the school is that it undermines the parent-child relationship (permanently)because the staff consistently paints the child as "manipulative" when sincere grievances are aired. Thus, the parents, who have restricted and monitored contact with the child is fed this load of BS that their kid is dishonest in order to keep the parent invested.
It seemed to me that a lot of kids at CEDU were just regular teenagers who ended uyp buying the lie about themselves.
But what about kids who are really out of control? How do we help them?
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On 2004-08-02 11:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
But what about kids who are really out of control? How do we help them?
One at a time and by restricting our efforts to those kids who we know personally.
One of the more difficult issues involved in the troubled parent industry, imo, is determining whether the kid in question is really out of control or in need of any kind of intervention to begin with.
But that's herasy in today's culture. For various and complex reasons, having nothing to do w/ "kids taday" (who are essentially no different from kids in any other day) our society is scared to death of teenagers. We view them as criminals by default, as a problem needing to be solved. That has to change.
So, my short, smart assed answer to the question "how can we help the kids who need it" would be that we quit helping so much.
If All it takes is an infinite number of monkeys with type writers, then how come there's no Shakespeare coming out of AOL?
-- Anonymous
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I am glad you brought this up. There are options and programs that can help. Some kids are on a terrible road to self destruction. Some kids end up dead at home.
I would start with a therapist - marriage and family, social worker, or psychologist - who specializes in adolescence. Forget about your insurance. Find the best.
Do not ask your family doctor for a referral. They do now know. Do not inquire with your local county behavioral health department. The person whom you get on the phone may or may not know, and how can you tell? Plus, they can't give you the inside scoop even if they do know it, because of legal implications.
Call the nearest major university - the one closest to you. State universities are good, although there are many good private ones. However, how will you know if it's a good private school when it comes to psychology?
Also, I would recommend calling the American Psychological Association. Their numbers:
(800) 374-2721 or (202) 336-5500
Tell them you want a referral for a psychologist who specializes in adolescent development. There are several divisions within APA that are applicable. Do your homework. Call the therapists and ask them:
1)What do you consider your area of specialization?
2)What journals do you read regularly?
3)What professional associations do you belong to?
4)Do you have experience with _____________________? (problem)
5)Have you had your own therapy?
6)What do you consider to be your strengths as a therapist?
Do not hesitate to ask these questions. If the psychologist is weird about any of them, thank him for his time and say ?goodby.?
Hope this helps!
But what about kids who are really out of control? How do we help them?
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Here?s how the ?experts? describe ?PTSD?.
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/center_index.php?id=109 (http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/center_index.php?id=109)
A good article:
http://www.burnsurvivorsttw.org/articles/ptsd1.html (http://www.burnsurvivorsttw.org/articles/ptsd1.html)
?Symptoms? vary, but what all have in common is a precipitating traumatic event. What people experience as ?traumatic? also varies. While one person may be able to shake off a particular event and appear to function well, another may be seriously traumatized. Take 911 for instance. For some it was a devastating event- unable to sleep or had recurring nightmares, unable to enter tall buildings or go on elevators, etc. While others had concerns and legitimate fears, but it didn?t effect their functioning. For some kids, being abducted or tricked into placement in what amounts to prison-like environment, denied access to parents and family is sufficient enough.
The reason I know the program was responsible for my son?s ?PTSD? is that he did not have debilitating insomnia; Wasn?t self-mutilating; Wasn?t devil worshipping; Didn?t have outburst of rage or nightmares; Didn?t skip meals; Didn?t abuse mind-altering substances; Didn?t mistrust all adults and authority; Wasn?t doing poorly in school or social settings, prior to incarceration.
I agree with Ginger. There are many opportunities for kids (and adults) who aren?t in programs to experience trauma. The difference, in my opinion, is that the kids in programs are not allowed to express anger about, or even to talk or cry about what?s happening to them. They are required to remain silent, and punished further if they speak agin? it. Kids on the outside have a better opportunity to vent about a trauma and resolve it. Being traumatized and silenced, while incarcerated by the perpetrator, is like a double whammy, and what happens to what I imagine to be, the majority of kids in programs. When unusual behaviors begin after such an experience, you can not deny the obvious cause.
For those who are interested EMDR has proven to be very effective for ?PTSD?: http://www.emdr.com/ (http://www.emdr.com/) It?s not an evasive therapy. Short of that, the best thing you can do is listen, without interruption or judgment, to their stories and provide validation- what they experienced was indeed abuse. My son trusted no one, especially therapists, not even the hand-selected counselor I chose. Most times he didn?t show up for appointments. I had sessions with her and she instructed me on how to help him at home. I spent many late nights listening, and providing feedback when appropriate.
Even if teens are not subjected to traumatic abuses, another problem with the ?program culture? in my opinion, is that it generally arrests natural development and the ability to learn how to function democratically in a family or social group. Negative associations can get attached to mundane, but important developmental tasks like keeping one?s space clean and orderly, spending time in nature, making a contribution to the upkeep of the group space, etc. etc; because instead of teaching skills, these activities are often required as a form of punishment. The person may develop aversions to actities that would make their life easier, if they didn't have resistence.
I love this fable regarding ?Who?s job is it?? to ?fix? teenagers: http://ishmael.com/Education/Writings/rice_u_2_98.shtml (http://ishmael.com/Education/Writings/rice_u_2_98.shtml)
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Deb: How did your son come to terms w/being placed there? (I think in a TH post you said his father placed him there.) Does his father understand the damage done? How did you all get through it? I've read other cases where the custodial parent places a kid and the non-custodial parent can't get them out, etc. and it turns into one big ugly mess. On another site, there was a Dad trying to get his son out, and the school turned the son against him. It's unbelievable how damaging these programs can be for families.
What did you first think when you heard about the program? Because many parents think its a good option when the ed con "expert" tells them about a "wonderful" school they know... Did you have to learn the hard way? Or were you wary from teh beginning?
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On 2004-08-02 14:12:00, Deborah wrote:
There are many opportunities for kids (and adults) who aren?t in programs to experience trauma. The difference, in my opinion, is that the kids in programs are not allowed to express anger about, or even to talk or cry about what?s happening to them. They are required to remain silent, and punished further if they speak agin? it. Kids on the outside have a better opportunity to vent about a trauma and resolve it. Being traumatized and silenced, while incarcerated by the perpetrator, is like a double whammy, and what happens to what I imagine to be, the majority of kids in programs. When unusual behaviors begin after such an experience, you can not deny the obvious cause.
I have to agree with this and I don't think the impact can be underestimated.
In the 'real world' (normal life at home, in the neighborhood, at school, etc.) if everyone disagrees with you on a particular thing, well you conclude that you must be mistaken. Take, for example the relatively normal toddler behavior of wanting to go naked in public. They might argue, protest, try their theory or whatever. It won't make a difference, people everywhere will reenforce the community norm that we all must wear clothing. They won't change everyone's mind, but there's no need to suppress the kid's rebellion because the community standard that you're trying to teach the kid is valid and real. If they won't take your word for it, they'll find out that you're telling them the truth. And, eventually, they'll comply and wear clothing, at least in public.
In a Program setting, it's quite different. The concensus is not natural, it's manufactured. They can't allow dissent or argument because there is no authentic concensus on a lot of the standards of conduct they insist on. One of the untrue facts that I had to accept was that my name was part of my "druggie past". Now, I can't remember ever having been called by my given name, even by family, not even by aunts or uncles or grandparents. I picked up my nickname when I was too young to remember. But, of course, when they stood me up and informed me that I would be called Virginia and the reason why, I couldn't argue about it. Because all of the people I was allowed to see or interact with re-enforced the lie, even though I knew logically that it was a lie, it became the truth in a very profound way.
More then a decade later I found a piece of art work that I had made in kindergarten in the bottom of box of momentos in my dad's house. I'll never forget it, it was a gingerbread man made of construction paper. I turned it over to look on the back and see who's it was (might just as well have been made by one of my brothers or sisters) and saw, in my own childish handwriting "G-I-N-G-E-R" I cried! Not that I expected it to say Virginia or anything. Just that that validation "See? I really didn't imagine it!" was that powerful.
Even though I didn't care that much what these people thought; I was only tolerating them till I could get away; just being forced to accept their version of facts above own knowledge was, apparently, pretty hurtful. And that was just a minor thing. Consider the implications of the same scenareo when the 'truth' in question is more important that that.
They used to burn witches. Today we laugh at them. Today we jail people for marijuana. Tomorrow they'll laugh at us.
--Robert "Rosie" Rowbotham
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
It is wrong to leave a stumbling block in the road once it has tripped you.
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I'd never even seen a psychiatrist before going there and the reasons I was put in the psych wards were directly related to that CEDU nonsense.
On 2004-08-02 09:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"But how do you know it's from CEDU? Again, I am definitely NOT defending the school. I'm wondering if you already had psych issues that the school either couldn't help or made worse b/c of its lack of qualifications and harmful techniques. And because the root cause is never dealt with. "
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Sometimes, especially in the case of biochemical imbalance, certain things don't manifest until you are older.
In your case, if it's program generated, it goes along w/what Deborah was saying about behavior changing AFTER the program.
Sometimes it could be a confluence of factors. A kid has some deep rooted issues and the program only makes it worse. There is no question these programs can make a sane person troubled.
You know what's funny? I escaped CEDU after 6 months and was still (unconsciously) trying to live "in agreement." Worse, I judged everyone else by that same code which only isolated me.
Did this happen to anyone else?
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How much is CEDU paying you to post here?
On 2004-08-02 20:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sometimes, especially in the case of biochemical imbalance, certain things don't manifest until you are older.
In your case, if it's program generated, it goes along w/what Deborah was saying about behavior changing AFTER the program.
Sometimes it could be a confluence of factors. A kid has some deep rooted issues and the program only makes it worse. There is no question these programs can make a sane person troubled.
You know what's funny? I escaped CEDU after 6 months and was still (unconsciously) trying to live "in agreement." Worse, I judged everyone else by that same code which only isolated me.
Did this happen to anyone else?
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Are you kidding me--I went there! I'm shanlea, original poster. And I was listing scenarios, not narrating yours.
At the end of the day, even though some people would say "get over it" I am just trying to figure out the impact CEDU had on me. I'm trying to discern what is my own lifelong baggage, and what areas CEDU really left its own ugly imprint.
I never talked about CEDU in all the years since I've been out, never went back to the same school or friends... I don't think anyone who hasn't been through a BM school would understand the insidious ways it affects you... Noone I know was ever sent to a BM School. I remember trying to explain it to a few people and it was beyond their grasp. But as much as I pretended I never went there, it affected me.
This site allows me to explore that. Reading other people's posts is validating, and in some ways, it helps me articulate what I'm feeling. It is helpful to see commonalities amongst us (and some of the testimony from other sites w/similar programs.)
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I was refering to my older son who spent 6 months with some very sadistic human beings in a military facility.
Three years later, I was dealing with a terribly hurt young man at home and my younger son was sent to do 9 months at a different, religious, military facility; followed by 20 months at a therapeutic facility. Not ONE crisis, not ONE mess to clean up, but two happening simultaneously. There were days that I didn't think I'd get through it. I did so with not 'a little help' but a whole lot of help from friends and family.
All three facilities were similar and different in distinct ways. My older son did endure more physical abuse. The emotional abuse was fairly equal at all three.
The marine academy my older son attended settled with 50 some plantiffs last year. My younger son's dorm officer is serving 95 years for molesting the boys in his care. The facility had another molestation case recently. We've taken no action against the third. But, that's three stikes. How can it be possible that out of three placements, three seperate facilties, they were all horrendously bad experiences? My conclusion is that they're all abusive, in different and varying degrees. Most parents just never hear about it.
And then there was my neighbor's son who died in a wilderness program, after ample warning of the dangers. And a business associate's grandson who was molested at a baptist boarding school. And my best friend who was shipped off to Roloff gulag, ran and was raped by a trucker- she swears it was less traumatic. And I used to feel sorry for my friends whose wealthy parents sent them away to traditional boarding schools. Little did I know what that industry was being morphed into. I got all the education would could possibly desire.
The marine military academy used all the same rhetoric, "they're lying manipulators'. I never bought it but the others did, UNTIL a young man's throat was cut in the night. Parents then took notice and listened to what their kids were saying. Calls weren't monitored at either military facility, btw. They all attempted to prevent visitation. The military facilities relented when I sent them a letter reminding them (I'm sure they knew), that my court ordered rights superceeded their policies.
None of us ever 'came to terms' with it. We endured the very best we could, and kept our focus on the future, which was damned hard at time. Sometimes there was nothing else to do but cry. I fought it and supported them the best I could, realizing that the real work would begin when they returned.
Because I'd always had a close and open relationship with the boys, they knew I was not party to the decision. They also knew that none of their extended family supported it. I think that's what they hung on to- the assurance that they had one reasonable parent. I do think that makes a difference. And I can only imagine how it must feel to have both parents supporting the abuse.
There aren't words to describe how I felt when my younger son was placed four states away, over a weekend. I assumed he was at the military school and I'd see him on the weekend. I got a call on a Monday morning from a perfect stranger, laying out the 'way it would be' for the next 20 months. It was the closest I'd ever come to wanting to hurt someone. My first thought was, "The f*** you say. Where is my son? I'm on my way". Given the nature of the beast, I decided it was in my best interest to try to reason with the arrogant ***. It didn't work. Dealing with PhD psych 'professionals' was very different than the military boys. The psychs were unrelenting, unreasonable, manipulating, arrogant, shameless liars. A very real threat. Despite my best efforts to contain the rage I felt, their head shrinkydink did eventually label me 'adversarial'- not supportive of the 'treatment' my son 'needed', and falsely accused me of 'disrupting the ENTIRE campus', and threatened my with a lawsuit.
It was the most frustrating and humiliating experience- like living in a nightmare that lasted 6 years. One I could never have imagined possible. I'm sure I am in a small percentage of parents, in that I did not support any of the placements.
Having taken some psych/counseling courses the whole setup of the 'program' was confusing beyond comprehension. They claimed to be a therapeutic facility, yet their behavior was no better, and in some instances far worse, than either of the military facilities. Their 'counseling' or 'therapy' was like noting I'd ever experienced or read about- except for the misuse of BM. It didn't take long to realize that these folks were in it for the money. They had no vested interest in my son. They diagnosed him on the spot- unetical. Never asked me for MY perception of my child or what OUR relationship was like. (I wasn't writing the check) They may as well have been holding my son hostage for $5000 a month ransom.
My ex is pretty out-to-lunch on these kind of matters. He has lots of money and connections, and not a lick of common sense. After the grief I put the first two facilities through, I imagine he hoped I'd support the later placement. Afterall, I was in a counseling program. He has declined to read my older son's evaluation, which was a necessary evil, required by his attorney for the lawsuit. Other than disagreeing with some of their treatment recommendations, I completely concurred with the analysis.
The boys don't talk to their dad about their experiences. They both know it is pointless, he just can't go there. I know that if he'd show any interest, it would go along way toward them 'coming to terms with it', as you say. They are much stronger and wiser than he, and know it. I can rest assured, their children will never be sent away. The cycle of 'families of origin scattering like pool balls', to use Ginger's analogy, will end with their generation. To my ex's defense, he wasn't raised in a close family. We view the world very differently, and he is not fully to blame for his lack of connection.
I appreciated this comment: "I escaped CEDU after 6 months and was still (unconsciously) trying to live "in agreement." Worse, I judged everyone else by that same code which only isolated me."
That's a good summary statement of what happens to kids in programs. Those few words speak volumes. It's equivalent to, or perhaps worse than, living with a religious fanatic parent who instills the fear of god- the all knowing one who is watching and judging your every thought and action. It's like a monkey on your back, until you figure out you can knock the SOB off. One is conditioned to abuse themselves. That's the way oppression works. When you oppress someone long enough, they internalize it and begin to treat themselves badly. External control is no longer necessary. Sick, I say, sick. And they pride themselves in being "HELPERS". The question is, whose helpers?
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That is an unbelievable story, Deborah. Totally heartbreaking. What blows my mind, too, is the absolute lack of rights you had as a parent. How dare they?! I don't know how you keep your head from exploding when dealing with your ex. Do you think your children will ever write a letter or have a meeting with him to vent their anger?
I always wanted to--as an adult--talk to some of the staff as a catharsis. They can't jerk me around now, I'm not helpless.
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Could've fooled me. Sounds like you're trying to rationalize what goes on and defend the programs. If you want to collect information then collect it, don't try to challenge what is being said. When you have everything from everyone you can look at the whole.
On 2004-08-02 20:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Are you kidding me--I went there! I'm shanlea, original poster. And I was listing scenarios, not narrating yours.
At the end of the day, even though some people would say "get over it" I am just trying to figure out the impact CEDU had on me. I'm trying to discern what is my own lifelong baggage, and what areas CEDU really left its own ugly imprint.
I never talked about CEDU in all the years since I've been out, never went back to the same school or friends... I don't think anyone who hasn't been through a BM school would understand the insidious ways it affects you... Noone I know was ever sent to a BM School. I remember trying to explain it to a few people and it was beyond their grasp. But as much as I pretended I never went there, it affected me.
This site allows me to explore that. Reading other people's posts is validating, and in some ways, it helps me articulate what I'm feeling. It is helpful to see commonalities amongst us (and some of the testimony from other sites w/similar programs.)
"
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You are reading the posts wrong. There is no rationalization. There is also nothing wrong with trying to understand...
This is too funny. I spent a boatload of time trying to get a pro-CEDU poster to understand that these programs are harmful and unethical and YOU think I'm rationalizing!
We all have our own shit regardless of whether we went through a program or not. On top of that, these programs do quite a number on many of us and compound existing issues. That is what I'm trying to understand.
Since CEDU, I have had difficulties in some areas and I was just trying to figure out if this is common with others.
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I'm sure not interested in your opinion about my situation since you know virtually nothing about me. I'm not trying to tell you that your problems were or were not caused by CEDU am I?
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I'm not giving my opinion about your situation. Why would I or should I? But this is a forum for discussion and I was just raising questions. Other people's stories have been enormously helpful to me. That's all.
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I suffered panic attacks after working at Boulder Creek Academy - over a year and they still creep up on me henever I am placed in social situations that require conformity to avoid being ejected.
I stay out of those situations now - and I'm a therapist.
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at cedu, my defiance and sense of individuality were made much stronger. i learned a lot about people; i was motivated to pay more attention to the subtleties of my human encounters... i'm now incredibly observant, and i'm great at figuring people out, which helps me in more ways than i could possibly imagine; cedu helped me to take my manipulative skills to a new level.
you take what you want to from things in your life; a lot of people want to get wrapped up in the "trauma" of painful experiences. maybe you were traumatized because you realized how fucked up things can really be... at least you've been more closely acquainted with mundane reality now, which can help you cope with the rest of your life. i don't know the best way for each of you to turn your "trauma" into strength, but i'd highly recommend that you figure it out.
_________________
laura solomon
cedu vet. 1996-1999
RIP[ This Message was edited by: mikehunt on 2004-08-11 07:18 ]
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I'm on top of my game yo
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i'm no muh fukkin small fry how i change that isht
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::bump::
See page 1 and 2.
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Wow, Tamm. This was when I was really searching, trying to divine what was pre-CEDU related BS and post-CEDU related BS. Right after I found this site.
I've developed a keener understanding of CEDU's effects. A lot of it was clarified reading some earlier threads in the SEED program, when I kept saying "A-ha! That's it!"
I think there were so many inner disturbances caused by CEDU, and looking back it either compounded existing issues EXPONENTIALLY, or created new ones. What CEDU really excelled at was making you feel like 100% unworthy piece of shit; re-writing your personal story so you lose touch with your true identity, thus disrupting the trajectory of your life; and not even close to last, facilitating a limited ability to connect with others because 1. you are brainwashed with false values that no one can live up to (subconsciously), and 2. you disconnect from people. You are there in body, but not spirit. Why give anyone the opportunity to learn all your secrets and vulnerabilities only to misuse them later? On the other hand, maybe you give all your vulnerabilities on a platter straightaway, as per CEDU's conditioning.
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"What CEDU really excelled at was making you feel like 100% unworthy piece of shit; re-writing your personal story so you lose touch with your true identity, thus disrupting the trajectory of your life; and not even close to last, facilitating a limited ability to connect with others"
Well said.....
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Interesting conversation with mom today...
We talked CEDU. Now, when I discuss this with mom, which is rarely, I *really* have to stroke her and make her feel like it wasn't her fault, or else the conversation will be over before it starts. And in a lot of ways, it wasn't her fault. It wasn't her fault that the people at CEDU treated me the way they did. It's not like there was any way she could have found out. What I do fault them with is the decision to solve this problem the way they did. But of course, I will never tell her that.
So I'm trying really hard to keep this in mind, when finally she says "Do you talk about anything but yourself?"
Interesting she should complain about self-absorption, due to the fact that CEDU was what fostered that in me. Granted, I've always been on the solipsist side, but CEDU sure didn't help.
Despite the fact that I am indeed self-absorbed, I still told her that that was a very mean thing to say.
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When I went to CEDU, I was desperate. I was not oppositional or defiant or on drugs, but I was depressed, underachieving, and desperately unhappy. In addition, I had a few traumatic experiences right before CEDU. My parents told me they were taking me there and I myself wanted help. So I didn't fight it.
As it turns out, CEDU was absolutely the wrong place for me, and I've listed many reasons on other posts. The root of the problem was never uncovered, and the staff were not honest in their dealings with me or my parents. I really did need help but CEDU did not provide it. I wasn't a liar or a manipulator or a drug addict and I didn't appreciate being treated like one. Also the bullying and the taunts and the weird lingo were not helpful at all. If anyone had treated me like an individual or directed treatment in a way to fortify your self esteem instead of tearing it down, it would have helped. I also needed better schooling than the joke that was offered as academics. (This may have changed over the past 10+ years--I hope so.)
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Various posters have shared that they have suffered PTSD years and years after CEDU. Even posters who are "successful" in many areas say that CEDU has done serious harm to their relationships and has affected them in ways that still impact them today.
What I am trying to discern is how? How specifically has it affected you guys? How does the PTSD affect you and how do you trace it to CEDU?
I AM DEFINITELY NOT UNDERMINING ANYONE'S EXPERIENCE AT ALL. I have been very forthcoming about what I think of CEDU. I'm just trying to make sense of CEDU's impact on my life better and also other earlier events in my life. Sometimes people articulate exactly what I'm feeling but didn't know how to express.
I know that when I split CEDU I was totally unprepared for the real world because I still thought in terms of the black and white rules, bans, and lingo of CEDU. I was trying to "live in agreement" even though I split to get away from it. I had a hard time with friends expecting them to be totally honest and living in accordance to CEDU's arbitarary set of values. All of this was TOTALLY unconscious. Anyway, that is one example.
Really difficult question, but I'll attempt to give a reader's digest version here.
I have a major, 2 year long, life and personality altering experience in my background that I don't trust, and that produces serious cognitive dissonance. My self image, relationships, and outlook, have all been touched by the experience. Added to that, there aren't many people who can relate to my experience; I feel privilaged to have one in my life who I'm close to.
Im avoiding the term PTSD here because it obscures the very organic and intuitive mechanism. You and I were snapped into and out of an intense, frightening and alien culture with no warning, and we assimilated it into our outlook on life. Its only called "trauma" because it exagerrated our defensive and survival mechanisms to the point where we use them in our daily lives in ways others don't.
When I got out of NWA I watched my back like mad. I tried to stay in agreement. I flipped the first time I kissed a girl, and I had propheet flashbacks when I heard neil diamond. I was acting strongly on a survival mechanism that no longer applied.
The other side of this is that I made some behavoiral changes at cedu that helped me get along better with others. This was also part of my survival strategy as it helped me keep from getting chewed out in raps.
The necessity to use these survival strategies has dimmed with the stimuli that necessetated them in the first place, however, many of them remain to greater or lesser degrees.
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an excellent post psianide.
thanks for posting it,
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i find your words very painful to read. i can only imagine the pain you must experience to express this sentiment.
at cedu, my defiance and sense of individuality were made much stronger. i learned a lot about people; i was motivated to pay more attention to the subtleties of my human encounters... i'm now incredibly observant, and i'm great at figuring people out, which helps me in more ways than i could possibly imagine; cedu helped me to take my manipulative skills to a new level.
you take what you want to from things in your life; a lot of people want to get wrapped up in the "trauma" of painful experiences. maybe you were traumatized because you realized how fucked up things can really be... at least you've been more closely acquainted with mundane reality now, which can help you cope with the rest of your life. i don't know the best way for each of you to turn your "trauma" into strength, but i'd highly recommend that you figure it out.
_________________
laura solomon
cedu vet. 1996-1999
RIP[ This Message was edited by: mikehunt on 2004-08-11 07:18 ]
you clearly have used cedu as a way to increase your ability to survive in this equally misguided and dysfunctional world/country.
but a lie remains a lie and a betrayal remains a betrayal, and if you choose to lie to yourself, you will only hurt others the way you have been hurt, and maybe you won't even see it.
don't let yourself settle for the unrelentingly cruel psychological environment that cedu trained us all to enforce on ourselves.
and if you really are kind to yourself already, than i hope you can find it in yourself to be understanding of how much harder it is for some of us to seperate ourselves from the monsters those counselors felt it necessary to convince us that we are, which we most unequivocably are not.
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i was misunderstood for a long time and went through unexplainable depression after graduating the program in the mid nineties. I was lucky enough to go to a good therapist that diagnosed me with first Bipolar and then changed his mind after some months and we started talking about the program. I couldn't explain how it made me feel to actually talk about what I felt there. It was a terrible empty pitiful scary feeling and I loved my experience in Idaho. I couldn't understand why I started to shake and cry and dream about being there. The pschiatrist and I worked for a while and I was diagnosed with PTSD, and it was from the program and the family issues with being there, and what turned out to be a lot of memories that were repressed like during the I want to live and that imagine, it was terrible, actually, even though it was special. It was so hard to explain to my doctor about it all, and she was the first to want to understand. Man, it was such a help to realize what blocked me being happy so much. I didn't think the program was bad like dog cage bad or corproal violence bad but they were wrong to force emotional response from people and say it was wrong or not let us tell people outside the program the bad things that happen. I forgave but it took me really having a hard look at those times up there and correctly prescribed medication for me to cope with some of the depression I felt. I now understand that some not all, some, of what happened to me there was wrong. wrong wrong!
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like during the I want to live and that imagine,
:o :o
The imagine? What the fuck happened in the imagine? I remember the fucked up shit in the IWTL, but not the imagine. I remember the picture and the game, and that's pretty much it.
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you said some, not all.
but i would say most, at least. wrong wrong wrong.
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Various posters have shared that they have suffered PTSD years and years after CEDU. Even posters who are "successful" in many areas say that CEDU has done serious harm to their relationships and has affected them in ways that still impact them today.
What I am trying to discern is how? How specifically has it affected you guys? How does the PTSD affect you and how do you trace it to CEDU?
I AM DEFINITELY NOT UNDERMINING ANYONE'S EXPERIENCE AT ALL. I have been very forthcoming about what I think of CEDU. I'm just trying to make sense of CEDU's impact on my life better and also other earlier events in my life. Sometimes people articulate exactly what I'm feeling but didn't know how to express.
I know that when I split CEDU I was totally unprepared for the real world because I still thought in terms of the black and white rules, bans, and lingo of CEDU. I was trying to "live in agreement" even though I split to get away from it. I had a hard time with friends expecting them to be totally honest and living in accordance to CEDU's arbitarary set of values. All of this was TOTALLY unconscious. Anyway, that is one example.
I have RMA to thank for warping my brother into a total paranoid skitzo.
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Various posters have shared that they have suffered PTSD years and years after CEDU. Even posters who are "successful" in many areas say that CEDU has done serious harm to their relationships and has affected them in ways that still impact them today.
What I am trying to discern is how? How specifically has it affected you guys? How does the PTSD affect you and how do you trace it to CEDU?
I AM DEFINITELY NOT UNDERMINING ANYONE'S EXPERIENCE AT ALL. I have been very forthcoming about what I think of CEDU. I'm just trying to make sense of CEDU's impact on my life better and also other earlier events in my life. Sometimes people articulate exactly what I'm feeling but didn't know how to express.
I know that when I split CEDU I was totally unprepared for the real world because I still thought in terms of the black and white rules, bans, and lingo of CEDU. I was trying to "live in agreement" even though I split to get away from it. I had a hard time with friends expecting them to be totally honest and living in accordance to CEDU's arbitarary set of values. All of this was TOTALLY unconscious. Anyway, that is one example.
I have RMA to thank for warping my brother into a total paranoid skitzo.
OUCH. This I did not know.
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Yeah fun times.. We used to have the typical big brother kicks little brother's ass relationship. Now we can't even be in the same room together for more than an hour before he is trying to reorganize my life for me and laying down some good therapy lines on me.
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Yeah fun times.. We used to have the typical big brother kicks little brother's ass relationship. Now we can't even be in the same room together for more than an hour before he is trying to reorganize my life for me and laying down some good therapy lines on me.
my god, what a nightmare. Can someone please return my brother to me? I've had it with the pod-person.
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Maybe this runs in families. I've got a sibling that thinks "What The Bleep?" is one of those prescient moments in spiritual awakening. I also get lectures about "The Power of Intention" (Lynne Taggart's spiel) and more, all along the lines of "LGAT meets newage sewage." Ugh.
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Yeah fun times.. We used to have the typical big brother kicks little brother's ass relationship. Now we can't even be in the same room together for more than an hour before he is trying to reorganize my life for me and laying down some good therapy lines on me.
my god, what a nightmare. Can someone please return my brother to me? I've had it with the pod-person.
Dude.. you can have mine... for free.. no charge.. NO CATCH.. just keep him away from me.