Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Dolphin on May 22, 2004, 12:15:00 AM
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Can we dig deeper than blaming a program for abuse in this thread? I haven?t read anything about what led to the decision for a parent to be desperate enough to get to the point of seeking residential behavior help.
What caused the schools to be ineffective?
What caused the parents to be ineffective?
What caused the therapists/counselors to be ineffective?
What caused the law enforcement agencies to be ineffective?
What caused the States to give the decision making to the child in most cases?
What caused the insurance companies to limit the amount of help a parent can seek?
What else? The drugs the kids are ?legally? taking because their behavior is being diagnosed as ADD?
Was there anything else available at the time, or even now?
Are the kids without consciousness of what they are doing to their bodies and minds more now, or is it because parents hands are bound by legislative and insurance company laws?
Are parents turning a blind eye to their child?s behavior because they feel there is nothing they can do to undo the damage they themselves may have caused? Is it because they have tried everything they know of and because their kids know they have control, they are the ones being emotionally abused by their child who, in most ways, is calling all the shots? Do these parents really love their child enough to get help, or are they parents that have more money than love? What would lead parents that aren?t wealthy to take out a loan, refinance their home, spend their retirement to get help for their child when there are no alternatives for help in their State or Community?
Many of these Programs are in Utah. Utah allows the parents to make decisions for their child, many other States say the child has to agree to get help. What makes Utah give parents that right?
To parents ? what was your purpose in choosing residential or behavior modification?
To former students ? do you truly know what your parents purpose was?
Request: Can we keep allegations and accusations of program abuse out of this thread and have a serious discussion about this subject?
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Anon Writes:
Request: Can we keep allegations and accusations of program abuse out of this thread and have a serious discussion about this subject?
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Well, we could but that would be assinine since any program that changes the hearts and minds of children through coercive behavior modification tactics and techniques is abusive.
The real question is why would any parent commit their child into a school or program that systematically abuses them? Could it be they equate submission to abusive practices with obedience to God, Country and Family Values?
:silly:
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My parents put me in a program 17 years ago because I was doing drugs and running away from home. They were worried sick about me and looking for me most of the time. They tried counseling and other things but it didn't work. There were bad things that happened in the program I was in but nothing close to what I was doing to myself when I was run away. I was able to seperate the good from the bad that went on in the program I was in. I used the good things I learned about how to cope with life and be responsible and express myself. I dealt with the abuse by talking about it and eventually letting it go. I do not see my parents as having any other choice. They could hardley find me half the time. The police couldn't even find me. I would not change what has happened. It has made me who I am today. I can try to imagine though the kids that did not have a real drug problem and were maybe just experimenting that ended up in treatment. That must be completely devistating.
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Well, a lot of these kids are from broken homes where there's a new step-parent that doesn't want the kid around.
So what leads to the decision is that the custodial parent cares more about getting laid regularly than they care about their kid.
Selfish, shallow, me-first parents.
Not always, but a lot of the time.
Sure, you have the occasional saint of a parent who just had the Bad Seed or Rosemary's Baby.
Just like you have the occasional saint of a thief who's just had bad luck and his situation is none of his own making---just a hungry man stealing a loaf of bread for his family.
Most program parents, like most thieves, are hardly saints---although some of them may be "Saints."
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I have the opportunity to share from two sides.
My mom had me admitted, through juvenile court, to a residential program. I was smoking pot, drinking beer, having lots of sex, skipping school, hitting my sister and brother and leaving at will and staying out as late as I wanted. My mom and step dad felt they had no other choice. I'm glad they did this, even though the place wasn't all that therapeutic. I left and got back into what I was doing and ended up running away for 2 years. I didn't grow out of this behavior until my thirties and my decisions are still felt today. Education being the biggest.
I saw my own son going down this road as fast as I did, so I knew what didn't work for me and I wanted to find a place that worked on choices and self-respect, and personal development. I found it, even though in the beginning I wondered if it was the right choice. In the beginning I knew where he was, that he was safe and that the only abuse that was going on was to himself and in his letters home. I had to keep reminding myself what led to this choice: It was that I didn't want for him what I had done to myself.
No program is for everyone, none are one size fits all. I wanted, and found, a place that treated the whole person, the whole family as individuals responsible for their own decisions.
The schools failed because they didn't have the teachers to help those "gifted" ADDers.
The insurance companies failed because they only wanted to pay for short term fixes. Believe me, I know that wouldn't have worked.
The therapists never challenged my child. THe one that did created him not showing up to go to the appointment.
I failed because I was a single mom working long hours and was never home during the early evening hours after school. I know I didn't fail in my love for him and talking with him. Once the drugs started, I knew I'd lost him.
The State is so focused on a child not being abused by the parents that the laws now give children rights that they shouldn't in cases like this. However, the "fix" they offer is so lame that I'm glad I had a choice in his care.
The police are so overwhelmed with calls that they just don't have the time to do the paperwork or deal with "family" problems. Their answer is juvenile jail.
I never want to feel the way I did for the two years prior to getting help that worked for both of us.
I do know that if either one of us hadn't bought into it, the story would not be as good.
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Gee, I don't know but could this be part of the reason parents made a decision to send their child to a program? I mean, marketing specialty programs and promoting sales is a business, is it not?
http://www.teenlifelines.com/faq.html (http://www.teenlifelines.com/faq.html)
:silly:
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On 2004-05-22 19:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have the opportunity to share from two sides.
My mom had me admitted, through juvenile court, to a residential program. I was smoking pot, drinking beer, having lots of sex, skipping school, hitting my sister and brother and leaving at will and staying out as late as I wanted. My mom and step dad felt they had no other choice. I'm glad they did this, even though the place wasn't all that therapeutic. I left and got back into what I was doing and ended up running away for 2 years. I didn't grow out of this behavior until my thirties and my decisions are still felt today. Education being the biggest.
I saw my own son going down this road as fast as I did, so I knew what didn't work for me and I wanted to find a place that worked on choices and self-respect, and personal development. I found it, even though in the beginning I wondered if it was the right choice. In the beginning I knew where he was, that he was safe and that the only abuse that was going on was to himself and in his letters home. I had to keep reminding myself what led to this choice: It was that I didn't want for him what I had done to myself.
No program is for everyone, none are one size fits all. I wanted, and found, a place that treated the whole person, the whole family as individuals responsible for their own decisions.
The schools failed because they didn't have the teachers to help those "gifted" ADDers.
The insurance companies failed because they only wanted to pay for short term fixes. Believe me, I know that wouldn't have worked.
The therapists never challenged my child. THe one that did created him not showing up to go to the appointment.
I failed because I was a single mom working long hours and was never home during the early evening hours after school. I know I didn't fail in my love for him and talking with him. Once the drugs started, I knew I'd lost him.
The State is so focused on a child not being abused by the parents that the laws now give children rights that they shouldn't in cases like this. However, the "fix" they offer is so lame that I'm glad I had a choice in his care.
The police are so overwhelmed with calls that they just don't have the time to do the paperwork or deal with "family" problems. Their answer is juvenile jail.
I never want to feel the way I did for the two years prior to getting help that worked for both of us.
I do know that if either one of us hadn't bought into it, the story would not be as good.
"
Yeah, sure.
Whatever you have to tell yourself.
You're not "deadorinjail"---and you don't know what your kid's opinion of being stuck in a private jail would be---and we don't either.
We know *you* think it's wonderful. The parents usually do. The kids usually think it's significantly less wonderful than the parents do, even if they have anything positive to say about it.
As far as I can see, you never quite grew out of making really bad choices, and that *is* too bad.
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On 2004-05-22 19:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Gee, I don't know but could this be part of the reason parents made a decision to send their child to a program? I mean, marketing specialty programs and promoting sales is a business, is it not?
http://www.teenlifelines.com/faq.html (http://www.teenlifelines.com/faq.html)
:silly: "
Bingo!
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On 2004-05-22 19:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have the opportunity to share from two sides.
My mom had me admitted, through juvenile court, to a residential program. I was smoking pot, drinking beer, having lots of sex, skipping school, hitting my sister and brother and leaving at will and staying out as late as I wanted. My mom and step dad felt they had no other choice. I'm glad they did this, even though the place wasn't all that therapeutic. I left and got back into what I was doing and ended up running away for 2 years. I didn't grow out of this behavior until my thirties and my decisions are still felt today. Education being the biggest.
I saw my own son going down this road as fast as I did, so I knew what didn't work for me and I wanted to find a place that worked on choices and self-respect, and personal development. I found it, even though in the beginning I wondered if it was the right choice. In the beginning I knew where he was, that he was safe and that the only abuse that was going on was to himself and in his letters home. I had to keep reminding myself what led to this choice: It was that I didn't want for him what I had done to myself.
No program is for everyone, none are one size fits all. I wanted, and found, a place that treated the whole person, the whole family as individuals responsible for their own decisions.
The schools failed because they didn't have the teachers to help those "gifted" ADDers.
The insurance companies failed because they only wanted to pay for short term fixes. Believe me, I know that wouldn't have worked.
The therapists never challenged my child. THe one that did created him not showing up to go to the appointment.
I failed because I was a single mom working long hours and was never home during the early evening hours after school. I know I didn't fail in my love for him and talking with him. Once the drugs started, I knew I'd lost him.
The State is so focused on a child not being abused by the parents that the laws now give children rights that they shouldn't in cases like this. However, the "fix" they offer is so lame that I'm glad I had a choice in his care.
The police are so overwhelmed with calls that they just don't have the time to do the paperwork or deal with "family" problems. Their answer is juvenile jail.
I never want to feel the way I did for the two years prior to getting help that worked for both of us.
I do know that if either one of us hadn't bought into it, the story would not be as good.
"
I agree with you, no one program is for everyone. I got help in a program that was really bad for some people. It is nice to see that for some parents giving up is not an option.
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On 2004-05-22 19:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Gee, I don't know but could this be part of the reason parents made a decision to send their child to a program? I mean, marketing specialty programs and promoting sales is a business, is it not?
http://www.teenlifelines.com/faq.html (http://www.teenlifelines.com/faq.html)
:silly: "
Promoting specialty programs on the internet and magazine is informational. If they really wanted to make an impact, why are there no infomercials?? Why are there no t.v.commercials, like PSA's or on the radio.
Beyond that, Dolphin, did you have a kid in a Program?
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All things considered, I think once a parent has made the decision to send their child away, they need to "believe" they made the right decison and these programs do a good job enforcing that *belief* by subjecting them (the parent) to many of the same CONDITIONING tactics and techniques used to force their children into compliance.
Among this group of program parents, are those who may have stumbled across information on the Internet to cause them to "second guess" their decision and more importantly, the quality of the care and treatment their child is receiving. Some have friends and family members who manage to break through the "wall of silence" and convince the parent to re-think their decision resulting in a child being released early. Still other parents, when faced with letters or phone calls from their child alleging abuse, become uneasy enough to believe their child in spite of the program's heavy-handed explanations, guilt-tripping, etc. and choose to bring their child home.
What's important here is it is not hard to see why parents would think their child needs a program and once he/she is placed, believe they did the "right thing".
The real question, is WHY do some parents change their mind, after-the-fact while other parents seemingly buy into the program propaganda for many months, even years?
Could it be these parents have lost their sense of "self" and as such, their critical thinking skills? In other words, they can't think outside the box (group)? What is, isn't and what isn't is?
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On 2004-05-23 10:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2004-05-22 19:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Gee, I don't know but could this be part of the reason parents made a decision to send their child to a program? I mean, marketing specialty programs and promoting sales is a business, is it not?
http://www.teenlifelines.com/faq.html (http://www.teenlifelines.com/faq.html)
:silly: "
Promoting specialty programs on the internet and magazine is informational. If they really wanted to make an impact, why are there no infomercials?? Why are there no t.v.commercials, like PSA's or on the radio.
Beyond that, Dolphin, did you have a kid in a Program?"
Informational? Sheesh, have you not taken a good look at the phony and/or outdated statistics most of these websites promote to SCARE parents into locking their children up before they are deadorinjail? What about the lack of full-disclosure (e.g. no bios or even a name of who owns and operates these "informational" websites pitching their programs-of-choice 24-7-365)? What about the obnoxious parents-helping-other-parents commercialized websites promoting themselves as experts in program referrals because they raised a troubled or troublesome teen, themselves? WOW, I'd sure want them to assess my teen's emotional and/or behavioral difficulties. NOT!!!!
:roll:
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In answer to someone's question. Yes. I had a child in a behavior mod program several years ago. At the time, those that I came in contact with were neither selfish or dealing with a "me first" attitude. All were scared, way before they found the school they placed their child in. They didn't need someone at an admission office somewhere tell them their kid would be dead or in jail. As no one can see the future, at least I can't, I could "feel" that her future was going to be there, after two arrests for joy riding and shoplifting at 15. The arrests were the least of what was happening.
I'm just being curious as to what those that are this board are saying about what led to the decision. It's hard for me to comprehend that parents would now be admitting their children for the little stuff, normal teenage rebellion. I know normal does not mean using drugs, failing school, running away...
I agree with the "gifted ADD" kids using prescribed medication when behavior modification can help them become self disciplined and to think before acting. Other diagnosis can be helped as long as the right kind of program is chosen. No, one size doesn't fill the need.
My main purpose in posing the question is that from what;s posted, the reasons have changed in the past few years, if I'm to believe what I read here.
To those that responded to the question so far, I'm happy to hear that there have been some positive experiences and the reasons are pretty much in line with what I was feeling back then.
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That was me. I guess I need to sign in everytime.
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How can any parent be certain that their child will not come out of a for-profit privately owned and operated "program" in worse shape than when they went in?
They can't.
Why?
Because the teen help industry at large, is out-of-control. Programs less than 6 months old are running full speed ahead in spite of having no measurable and verifiable "safety and efficacy" track record.
Other programs such as the now-defunct Utah-based Skyline Journey whose license was suspended after the death of a 14 year boy are allowed to continue operating (and accepting new clients) pending administrative hearings which can take up to a year to complete.
Where is the accountability in this multi-million dollar cash-cow industry?
There isn't any.
:idea:
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"The real question, is WHY do some parents change their mind, after-the-fact while other parents seemingly buy into the program propaganda for many months, even years?
Could it be these parents have lost their sense of "self" and as such, their critical thinking skills? In other words, they can't think outside the box (group)? What is, isn't and what isn't is? "
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Why parents change their mind after the fact? The one's I know that did felt guilty, missed their child, wanted to control the results, didn't see the investment quickly enough, got hurt when they didn't agree with certain rules, believed their child had changed in only a couple of weeks or months or weren't willing to take a look at how they had a part in what led to needing a residential admission and that may have been a recommendation by the school.
Nothing as "deep" as losing their reasoning. The ones that go the distance are the ones that are finally getting their critical thinking skills back and are thinking for themselves and not relying on the opinions of others. I went the distance because I wasn't in a hurry, I knew it would take time and learned patience and surrender in the process.
What led other's to admit their child?
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"How can any parent be certain that their child will not come out of a for-profit privately owned and operated "program" in worse shape than when they went in?
They can't.
Why?
Because the teen help industry at large, is out-of-control. Programs less than 6 months old are running full speed ahead in spite of having no measurable and verifiable "safety and efficacy" track record."
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No one can know if a kid will come out worse than when they go anywhere, including the public school they are attending, or the hospital they were admitted to for an emergency surgery.
Did you ever take your child to a therapist? Was it free, or were they paid for a wasted hour when your child just sat there? Did they come out better or worse? Did that therapist make a profit from this? You bet they did. What was the result from making their mortgage payment?
If you're looking for guarantees, go buy a refrigerator.
At the time I chose residential admission for my child, I wasn't looking for guarantees. I was looking for something more important. That is personal to me, as it is to every parent that was living their own real nightmare.
I do agree with the skepticism in admitting to a program that has only been around a few months. It makes more sense to go with those that have been around for several years and be able to talk with those that have the results to share.
I chose not to go with a government regulated institution. That's like turning a child over to Child Protective Services. Nice idea that is so bogged down with red tape, they aren't doing the job it was intended to do. My child was not "red tape" material.
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Dolphin, you don't get it, do you? Your child didn't need a program, YOU did.
So how many of these "thoughts and feelings" displayed so prominently on program recruitment websites applied to you?
Desperate? Stressed Out? Anxiety or Guilt Ridden? Scared? At your wit's or rope's end? Depressed? Worried? Angry? Out of Control?
Come now, don't be shy. These program recruiters would not be in business if it wasn't for struggling parents. They feel your pain, unlike other family members and friends who don't understand your thoughts or feelings.
Didn't use a program referral service or educational consultant but instead, found out about the *miracle* (s.i.c.) of pricey behavior modification programs through another once struggling parent?
:roll:
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If you want a guarantee, don't lie to your children, and don't expect someone else to "fix" them for you. Stay with them, and help them heal.
Leaving them for someone else to fix, is abandonment. Abandonment destroys trust. If there is no trust, there is no relationship.
Programs destroy families. Learn how to love, not control.
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If your children *don't* scare you half to death for their future in the teenage years, you're either lucky beyond belief or there's something really wrong with them.
It is the nature of teenagers to turn their parents' hair white with the risks they take and the reckless things they do.
It is the nature of parents of teens to be over-conservative and overly risk-averse---in their teen's life and their own.
Youth is rash and brash and reckless--and sometimes pays the price.
Age is stodgy and over-cautious---and pays the price in missed opportunities.
And these are perfectly *normal* teens and their parents.
(To the extent such a thing as "normal" exists.)
Sending your kid to a program is just like hiring someone else to take your SAT's for you.
It's a dishonorable abdication of personal responsibility *unless* your kid is one of the very rare cases that would qualify for involuntary commitment if he/she was an adult *and* you only have him/her in until he/she is stabilized on medication (or as long as he/she is dangerous, if he/she isn't a medication responder).
The parents who do this probably *did* cheat on their tests in school---and they're still looking for shortcuts and they don't really care how dishonorable those shortcuts are as long as they can blow off their critics without facing consequences---ie, as long as they don't get caught.
They haven't changed a bit. I saw the type in school when I saw them cheating on tests, and the people I see shipping their kids off (except for the legitimate exception I mentioned) are the very same kinds of people as those kids.
The programs aren't "the answer"---they're just a more convenient and more comfortable cop-out to get out of the real work of dealing with the kid---with just enough hair shirt thrown in to give program parents an excuse to lie to themselves about their selfish abdication of normal parental responsibility for basically normal teenagers.
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.
--Anonymous
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Everytime I hear the word "heal" in the context of helping teens (or others) with problems of living, it doesn't sit right. My opinion is that it's used inappropritely. It's my belief that anyone who is exhibiting self-destructive or anti-social behavior does not have an illness or disease that requires "healing", but problems with living and relating.
They are not at peace with themselves, their family and/or communities and their behavior may well be a reaction to living in a disrespectful environment and/or to having not yet learned how to be in mutually respectful relationships. That is not an illness and no "healing" is required. Respect and modeling is called for.
While I don?t agree with the hypothesis that deviant behavior might be genetic- which could lead to drugging teens- I think the research (below) is relevant to the Teen Warehouse Industry and important for parents considering aggregating their teen with other "deviant" teens. I think it gives some insight into what the actual ?success rates? might really be. A quote: ?Moreover, interventions with high-risk parents have shown results in improved parenting, concomitant reductions in child and adolescent problem behavior (Dishion et al., 1995; Dishion, Spracklen, et al., 1996; Webster-Stratton, 1990), and improvement in academic skills (Forgatch & DeGarmo, in press). Therefore, the cost-effectiveness of group interventions is retained if focus is on the parents and aggregating young adolescents is avoided.?
http://www.apa.org/journals/amp/amp549755.html (http://www.apa.org/journals/amp/amp549755.html)
When Interventions Harm: Peer Groups and Problem Behavior
Excerpts (emphasis added):
The Adolescent Transitions Program Study
Group counseling and guided group interaction produced a negative effect on delinquent and antisocial behavior (Berger, Crowley, Gold, Gray, & Arnold, 1975; Feldman, 1992; Gottfredson, 1987; O'Donnell, 1992).
In this article, we tested the hypothesis that high-risk young adolescents potentially escalate their problem behavior in the context of INTERVENTIONS DELIVERED IN PEER GROUPS. To examine this hypothesis, we first invoked studies on adolescent social development, indicating the processes that might account for problem behavior escalation.
Second, we reviewed two controlled intervention studies involving peer aggregation that produced NEGATIVE short- and long-term effects on high-risk young adolescents. Finally, we discussed the developmental and intervention studies and proposed conditions that might increase the likelihood of negative effects with respect to underlying developmental processes. We also proposed directions for future intervention research to both accurately detect and understand iatrogenic effects associated with peer aggregation.
Iatrogenic- induced inadvertently by a physician or surgeon or by medical treatment or diagnostic procedures.
To examine the relative efficacy of the different intervention conditions, we randomly assigned 119 high-risk youth (boys and girls) and their families to one of four intervention conditions: (a) parent focus only; (b) teen focus only; (c) both parent and teen focus; and (d) an attention placebo group, referred to as self-directed change, which included free access to videotapes and written materials. We recruited a quasi-experimental control group (n = 38) to evaluate the extent to which the self-directed intervention reduced problem behavior. Outcome analyses combined the self-directed and control groups for comparisons with the relative effects of the teen and parent focus groups. Dishion and Andrews (1995) compared the characteristics of the participants, as well as the outcomes for the two groups, and found them virtually equivalent.
We hypothesized that the optimal intervention would be the combined condition, involving both the parent and teen focus curriculums (Dishion et al., 1988). Consistent with this hypothesis, many of the short-term effects were quite positive. For example, both teen and parent focus participants showed more curriculum-specific knowledge following the intervention (Dishion, Andrews, Kavanagh, & Soberman, 1996). More important, both interventions resulted in statistically reliable reductions in observed negative family interactions (Dishion & Andrews, 1995). Parent reports of family conflict suggested that the teen and parent focus cognitive?behavioral intervention considerably reduced family tension and conflict.
Unfortunately, MORE COMPLETE LONG-TERM ANALYSIS REVEALED THAT NEGATIVE EFFECTS WERE ASSOCIATED WITH THE TEEN FOCUS CURRICULM. Three months after random assignment, we noted an increase in tobacco use among the teen focus participants. One year following the families' involvement in the ATP study, increases in tobacco use and teacher report of externalizing behavior were found to be RELIABLY HIGHER IN THE TEEN FOCUS GROUPS, compared with problem behavior within the control conditions (Dishion & Andrews, 1995). The effect sizes were strong enough to undermine the short-term positive gains of the parent focus intervention (Dishion & Andrews, 1995; Dishion, Andrews, et al., 1996). The combined parent and teen focus intervention programs DID NOT REDUCE RISK FOR SUBSTANCE USE AND DELINQUENCY, as hypothesized.
Three-year follow-up assessments suggest that the iatrogenic effects of the teen focus conditions persisted for tobacco use and delinquency (Poulin, Dishion, & Burraston, in press). As shown in Figure 2, random assignment to teen focus, regardless of the accompanying intervention with parents, was associated with long-term increases in tobacco use.
A reasonable argument might be that the long-term effects are attributable to changes in youth-reporting strategies, representing an Intervention × Assessment interaction (Campbell & Stanley, 1963). Contrary to this hypothesis were the results of the analysis on the Delinquency scale of the teacher version of the Child Behavior Checklist (Achenbach, 1991). During the intervention study, teachers were unaware of each student's intervention condition. They knew even less of the ATP study in later years of follow-up. As shown in Figure 3, teachers reported HIGHER LEVELS OF DELINQUENT BEHAVIOR IN YOUTH RANDOMLY ASSIGNED TO TEEN FOCUS, compared with controls; these levels persisted over the three-year follow-up period.
The Cambridge?Somerville Youth Study Evaluation
used a comprehensive approach to crime prevention, based on knowledge that high-risk children lacked affectionate guidance (Healy & Bronner, 1936; Powers & Witmer, 1951).
Treatment began when boys were, on average, 10.5 years old and terminated shortly after they reached the age of 16. Although the intensity of treatment varied, boys were visited an average of twice a month in their homes. Counselors encouraged their participation in local community groups and took the boys to sporting events, taught many of them how to drive, helped them obtain jobs, and served their families in a variety of ways (including help with finding employment, assisting in the care of younger children, counseling, and providing transportation).
An evaluation shortly after the program ended FAILED TO TURN UP DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TREATED AND UNTREATED BOYS (Powers & Witmer, 1951). Many suggested that judgment be delayed until the boys fully matured. When the CSYS participants reached middle age, an intensive effort was made to find them and assess the effects of their treatment; that search resulted in 98% retention by 1979. Vital statistics, the courts, mental hospitals, and alcohol treatment centers provided objective evidence by which to evaluate effects of the program. Distressingly, as reported earlier, the TREATMENT PROGRAM APPARENTLY HAD HARMFUL EFFECTS (McCord, 1978, 1981).
Two analyses indicated that the iatrogenic effects came from the treatment program. First, boys who received the most attention over the longest period of time were the most likely to have iatrogenic effects. A dose?response analysis showed those in treatment longer, and those who received more intense treatment, were most likely to have turned out worse than their matched controls (McCord, 1990). Second, the iatrogenic results occurred ONLY IN THE COOPERATIVE FAMILIES. Among those, 27 pairs of treatment boys turned out better, but 52 pairs turned out worse. Among the pairs in which the treatment family was uncooperative, the control and treatment boys were equally likely to turn out badly (McCord, 1992).
Attempts failed to find subgroups for whom treatment had been beneficial. Those who started treatment at very early ages were not less likely to have bad outcomes than their matched controls. Nor was there evidence to show that some particular variation of treatment had been effective. Moreover, when comparisons were restricted to those with whom a counselor had particularly good rapport, or those whom the staff believed they had helped most, the objective evidence failed to show the program had been beneficial (see McCord, 1981, 1990, for details).
The comparison of outcomes among matched pairs of boys shows that although none of the groups benefited from treatment, MOST OF THE DAMAGING EFFECTS OF THE CSYS PROGRAM APPREARED AMONG THE BOYS WHO HAD BEEN SENT TO SUMMER CAMP MORE THAN ONCE (see Figure 4) and who TURNED OUT CONSIDERABLY WORSE than their matched mates. Among these pairs, the risk ratio for bad outcome was 10:1. In 20 pairs, ONLY THE TREATMENT BOYS HAD BAD OUTCOMES, whereas the control boys had bad outcomes only in two pairs.
Both processes suggest that repetition of contact within the peer-group intervention would create the iatrogenic effect observed in these two intervention studies, especially among those youth likely to engage in deviant talk and behavior primarily in the company of peers.
We hypothesize that the reinforcement processes within the peer groups are quite subtle and potentially powerful. For example, Buehler, Patterson, and Furniss (1966) found that within INSTITUTIONAL SETTINGS, peers provided a rate of reinforcement of 9-to-1, compared with adult staff, suggesting that the density of reinforcement from peers can be so high it seriously undermines adult guidance.
Research by Chamberlain and colleagues revealed that MOBILIZING ADULT CAREGIVING is a critical and viable intervention target for even the most severe adolescent delinquent (Chamberlain & Moore, 1998; Chamberlain & Reid, 1998). Her research compared a treatment foster care model with GROUP HOME TREATMENT, finding that the former resulted in reductions in deviant peer contact and subsequent self-reported and court-documented delinquency, compared with group home placement.
Moreover, interventions with HIGH-RISK PARENTS
(my emphasis) have shown results in improved parenting, concomitant reductions in child and adolescent problem behavior (Dishion et al., 1995; Dishion, Spracklen, et al., 1996; Webster-Stratton, 1990), and improvement in academic skills (Forgatch & DeGarmo, in press).
Therefore, the cost-effectiveness of group interventions is retained if focus is on the PARENTS and AGGREGATING YOUNG ADOLESCENTS IS AVOIDED.
To really understand the impact of interventions with adolescents, researchers will have to assess a variety of short- and long-term outcomes (Kelly, 1988) addressing expected intervention outcomes (e.g., targeted skills) with real-world outcomes (e.g., behavior in the natural environment). The scientific and professional community must be open to the possibility that INTENTIONS TO HELP MAY INADVERTENTLY LEAD TO UNINTENTIONAL HARM.
**********
Perhaps these folks would be interested in conducting some research within the Teen Warehouse Industry. Fertile ground.
And, these teens were not subjected to the austere methods employed by BM facilities, weren't denied contact with parents and family, etc. etc. etc.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-05-27 10:08 ]
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On 2004-05-27 06:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If you want a guarantee, don't lie to your children, and don't expect someone else to "fix" them for you. Stay with them, and help them heal.
Leaving them for someone else to fix, is abandonment. Abandonment destroys trust. If there is no trust, there is no relationship.
Programs destroy families. Learn how to love, not control."
I'm going to guess you were referring to this comment, Debra.
Abuse, which is what I myself needed ?healing? from, was what I was referring to. Boundary injuries can start as young as infancy. These kids aren?t dysfunctional because they were born that way. Most of their problems were created and mishandled for years, by their parents, in some way. This type of abuse, whether it be verbal, emotional, physical, spiritual or neglectful, causes deep emotional injuries, that take years to recover from. The word injury relates to abuse, the way therapy relates to heal.
So yes, heal.
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Dolphin, just curious (If you posted already I didn't see it yet..)
Why did you put in your kid? How long was it? What program was it? What did they do to your kid EXACTLY, and how is the child now?
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Has anyone ever wondered why all of the pleased parents sound the same? It's because they need to believe they did the right thing. Many of them took out mortgages on their homes, used up their savings and so forth to do this. It's hard to realize that it was all for nothing. All parents want to believe that they are doing the best thing for their children. The therapists really try to get you to believe that you have done the best thing, that there was no other alternative. This is the deception. It happens to all program parents.
Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.
Mahatma Gandhi, My Autobigraphy, p. 446
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Program Parents are just plain delusional. They believe if they spend good money, the program must be good. When allegations of abuse surface, parents try very hard NOT to believe them, as opposed to trying really hard TO believe them. This process of disbelief is called d.e.n.i.a.l.
:silly:
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Hmm..Not sure why you said therapists tell the parents there's no other options. The parents knew that before they went this route. What led to a program decision? It wasn't the therapists, ed cons or marketing companies telling the parents this is the answer...the parent knew they weren't getting the support or help for themselves and their child prior to looking for serious help.
What brought you to the decision to admit your child to Provo, Cynical Wisdom?
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Being faced this summer with the prospect of a bored 15-year-old around our busy ranch, we suddenly decided to search the Internet for summer camp options. We found camps 15 years ago for our daughters, but this is a new adventure with our grandaughter now living with us. Since WWASPS, I have become such a cynic. I wish I wasn't, but experience with the sordid marketing ways of lying about what is reality has made us think "negative" first.
I am empathetic with parents looking for help with their unruly teens. Who wouldn't be impressed with "other-culture experiences" at a "school" in Mexico, Jamaica, or Costa Rica. Who wouldn't be impressed with promised trips to surrounding natural wonders of streams in the mountains of Montana? Who wouldn't be impressed with the red rocks for hiking and camping in Utah? Who wouldn't be impressed with visiting gracious Southern cities and their governments?
Reality Check! No enrollee goes into the markets of Ensenada, except to pass by on their way out of Casa by the Sea. The beaches in Jamaica may be just beyond the walls, but there are severe punishments if one even looks out a window at them, much less have a sunny oceanfront holiday. The stream near Spring Creek Lodge in Montana is the site of a ritual of pushing blindfolded kids off a small footbridge 6 feet above the water, telling them it is a huge cliff, not learning fly fishing from a mentor naturalist. A hiking adventure into the Red Rocks is so unusual...non-existent, really...that a story about 4 lucky young men and their staffer from Cross Creek who spent an entire 6 HOURS walking around made it into a feature story in The Source, WWASPS house magazine. Go into a Carolina capitol and visit the government in action? Only if you are one of a dozen kids who were invited to see the State Capitol and visit the offices of a State Senator whose child was also enrolled in Carolina Springs Academy.
In looking for a summer camp, I now look through jaded eyes, disbelieving every scene of happy kids canoeing, a line of hikers on a gorgeous mountain trail, kids lovingly hugging horses. Can making s'mores over a campfire be a reward for kids spending the entire week with their eyes diverted to the ground? Jeesh!
What led to a program decision? I don't know, but I can see how "regular" folks could really believe what they see in a web site.
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Spots how can you be contemplating send your granddaughter off? My God, with what all she has been through, you are ready to ship her off yet again. Pour child, abused and neglected by her parents, then shipped away, only to return to be shipped off once again. How sad. How will she ever be able to trust another adult.
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Spots,
I can refer you to an awesome camp in Tx. They are usually full by this late date, but I have no doubt your granddaughter would thouroughly enjoy herself. My sons went for several summers and had a blast. They are radical critics too. Both looked forward to their 2 weeks at Laity Lodge on the Frio River. Only complaint, its a Christian camp but not dogmatic and religion is not the primary focus.
I think it might be a good experience... kinda like when one falls off a horse. Gotta get back on quickly. Could be useful for her to be in a group setting away from home that would contradict the horrid experience of the warehouse. Restore some faith in the goodness of others.
I certainly understand the skepticism and hesitation. I think it's wise. Your eyes have been opened, don't close them again.
Talk to kids when deciding on a traditional camp. Let their enthusiasm or lack of help you choose.
PS- Worse case, she'll call to come home early. Guaranteed, she won't be denied access to public phones!!
Happy Summer[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-05-30 15:31 ]
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Deborah, whats up, you now recommending prgorams like the rest of them? Wow, what do you know about Spots grandaughter? How is it that you now can recommend, with what all she has been through, sending her off once again as a good option?
Is all that matters is what makes things the easiest for the guardian? If the child can simply be shipped off once again, given all the abuse she is to have endured, sending her to summer camp is in order, just what she needs. You compare her experience to that of falling off of a horse. She must not have been through much after all. Sure seems if she was abused by her step dad, neglected by her mother and then abused further in a "program" then she would be need in much more than a summer camp.
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Two weeks at a summer "fun" camp is in no way comparable to time in a teen BM warehouse, and by no stretch of the imagination is it a "program".
It might be fun for her. Take her mind off the recent past.
Pay attention and please don't twist my words.
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Outward Bound offers great outdoor activities for non troubled teens. They do have age restrictions for some of their camps, and it's not like you're sending her off indefinitely. They may already be filled for the summer, but it's worth a look-see.
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On 2004-05-30 17:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Deborah, whats up, you now recommending prgorams like the rest of them? Wow, what do you know about Spots grandaughter? How is it that you now can recommend, with what all she has been through, sending her off once again as a good option?
Is all that matters is what makes things the easiest for the guardian? If the child can simply be shipped off once again, given all the abuse she is to have endured, sending her to summer camp is in order, just what she needs. You compare her experience to that of falling off of a horse. She must not have been through much after all. Sure seems if she was abused by her step dad, neglected by her mother and then abused further in a "program" then she would be need in much more than a summer camp.
"
When I went camping with the Girl Scouts, I don't recall them telling me I couldn't talk to the other girls in my troop---or any other troop we encountered.
Five-point restraints were, for some strange reason, *not* on the list for our knot-tying badge.
The only thing unwholesome about the food was the occasional dusting of camp pepper.
Not one girl in my troop was delivered to the camp in handcuffs by ex-military hired "escorts."
"Run plans" were what the more athletic girls arranged with one of the chaperones for an early morning jaunt down a hiking trail.
Nobody yelled obscenities at anyone else in our "friendship circle."
Okay, well, there was the scattered and tattered copy of playgirl we found lying around inside one of the forts, but we didn't tell the counselors about that----and the universal exclamation was along the lines of, "Ewww!!! Gross!!!!"
We all knew the meaning of the term "First Aid"---and the difference between it and real medical attention, and were pretty sure about what needed which.
Nobody had to sit alone in a cinderblock room, on a cement floor, facing the wall.
If the weather was bad, we rescheduled.
We had plenty of water.
If a girl sat down and wouldn't continue on a hike, I don't know what the troop leaders would have done, but they sure as heck wouldn't have hit her and wouldn't have let any of us (and at least half of us wouldn't have even thought of smacking her, even if she was being a pain).
Troop leaders did not carry their own pharmacy of psychoactive drugs along.
Tattling was frowned on, unless the stunt was such that someone could get really hurt.
We were more afraid of poison ivy and mosquitos than sadistic goons.
And, of course, our troop leaders never claimed to our parents that we were all lying manipulators.
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Obviously she is fine if she is ready to go to summer camp. She must not have suffered much at all. I thought we were talking about a child who had been through hell and back. Sounds like she has not been traumatized at all from her experiences. Great, send her off, now, she should be a happy camper :razz: She is use to those in her life wanting others to keep her busy. That seems to be the norm for her.
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There are actually fun camps for children and teens. For instance - boy scout camp is always something my son looks forward to. My children have all been to summer camp for a week or two and it has always been fun.
The wilderness programs are a different story. I think it would be a good idea for a child to go to a FUN camp and see that there really ARE people who are kind and nurturing. Cops; you wake `em up you gotta dance with `em. They lead.
-- Jack McNulty
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Maybe Spot's grand daughter asked to go to a summer camp. I really doubt Spots would make that decision for her considering the circumstances.
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I'm confused, who is the legal guardian(s) of this child? Her parents or grandparents?
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Nobody is saying summer camps are not fun. Spots said her daughter was abused by her step dad, neglected by her mother and further abused in a program. All of this abuse and neglect has taken place within the last year. This child who is said to have been abused, neglected and sent off for others to raise is now being sent off again, only after a very short reprieve. Has she recovered from her trauma that quickly, so quickly that summer camp is in order, or had she truely ever been traumatized.
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On 2004-05-31 05:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nobody is saying summer camps are not fun. Spots said her daughter was abused by her step dad, neglected by her mother and further abused in a program. All of this abuse and neglect has taken place within the last year. This child who is said to have been abused, neglected and sent off for others to raise is now being sent off again, only after a very short reprieve. Has she recovered from her trauma that quickly, so quickly that summer camp is in order, or had she truely ever been traumatized."
One of the best ways to overcome psychological trauma is to get on with normal life.
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Spots said: "Being faced this summer with the prospect of a bored 15-year-old around our busy ranch."
:???:
Bored on a busy ranch?????
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Hi Spots -
I want to second the motion to look at Outward Bound. They operate a first class outdoor program in varied areas with many exciting opportunities. The people are professional and Safety is stressed.
About the only think that will get a camper pulled and sent home is disregard for safety.
They have trips ranging from one week to about a month.
The whole point is to help the camper learn they can do things and do them well that they never imagined possible.
They got their start when it was noticed that during navel catastrophes; i was the old sailors who survived; and the young men who died in droves. This didn't seem to make sense; as the younger guys should've been stronger and more able bodied. It was determined that the old guys faired better b/c they had lived long enough to know "this to shall pass" and had developed a sense of capability - the mental strength to understand they could do it.
So they began a new type of training, to teach the young sailors they to could do things they hadn't imagined.
Outward bound grew from this.
The idea being, when you take a green kid; and you teach them it is possible to drop over the ledge of a cliff; and not only survive but to enjoy it.
I know it sounds like the nightmare outdoor program that have killed kids; but that b/c it is Outward bound they are trying to emulate in a grossly amateurish and negligent way.
Also, I suppose b/c of the back ground of the developers of these wanna be programs; they have this harsh demeaning quality we are all so familiar with.
Outward bound is not at all like that. The pace is set at the level of the slowest member; The slow ones are encouraged and shown how to safely improve their performance; the stronger ones often help carry some of the load of the weaker ones - it is Very different in philosophy.
The point being, it is well worth a look at.
Also, if she isn't interested in something quite so adventuresome; you might look at the YMCA summer camps. They probably are filled up - but there are always drop outs and no shows and the waiting list kids usually do get a spot. My son loved camp and always had a great time. The teen camps tend to run over the entire length of the summer - with every other week end home.
You are taking heat from a few goof ballz for looking at caps - I assume she wants to go; and I know how wonderful a summer at camp can be. It could be very very good for her after a 'Program' experience.
I have been looking at Outward Bounds canyon hike for myself. I love those canyons in South Utah. Just love 'em. They have a week long hike they do and I would so much love to try it. I worry about my knee and asthma. I could barely breath at the top of Bryce; and if I had tried to hike down to the canyon floor - I seriously doubt I could've made it back up. But even so, I am sorely tempted to give it a go. Maybe next year. . .
http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/ (http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/)
http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/c ... t_170.html (http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/course/southwest_canyoneering_-_xt_170.html)
You might want to look at their Ascent corses for your Grand daughter.
// Spots said: "Being faced this summer with the prospect of a bored 15-year-old around our busy ranch."
Bored on a busy ranch?????//
Maybe shes not into horses. Either you are or your not.
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I somehoe managed to not finish this thought. . .
The idea being, when you take a green kid; and you teach them it is possible to drop over the ledge of a cliff; and not only survive but to enjoy it.
It develpoes their self reliance and self assuredness and so they learn they really can do what ever they set out to do; and it helps greatly with their ability to go after what they want out of life instead of settling for what is easy.
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On 2004-05-31 09:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hi Spots -
I want to second the motion to look at Outward Bound. They operate a first class outdoor program in varied areas with many exciting opportunities. The people are professional and Safety is stressed.
About the only think that will get a camper pulled and sent home is disregard for safety.
They have trips ranging from one week to about a month.
The whole point is to help the camper learn they can do things and do them well that they never imagined possible.
They got their start when it was noticed that during navel catastrophes; i was the old sailors who survived; and the young men who died in droves. This didn't seem to make sense; as the younger guys should've been stronger and more able bodied. It was determined that the old guys faired better b/c they had lived long enough to know "this to shall pass" and had developed a sense of capability - the mental strength to understand they could do it.
So they began a new type of training, to teach the young sailors they to could do things they hadn't imagined.
Outward bound grew from this.
The idea being, when you take a green kid; and you teach them it is possible to drop over the ledge of a cliff; and not only survive but to enjoy it.
I know it sounds like the nightmare outdoor program that have killed kids; but that b/c it is Outward bound they are trying to emulate in a grossly amateurish and negligent way.
Also, I suppose b/c of the back ground of the developers of these wanna be programs; they have this harsh demeaning quality we are all so familiar with.
Outward bound is not at all like that. The pace is set at the level of the slowest member; The slow ones are encouraged and shown how to safely improve their performance; the stronger ones often help carry some of the load of the weaker ones - it is Very different in philosophy.
The point being, it is well worth a look at.
Also, if she isn't interested in something quite so adventuresome; you might look at the YMCA summer camps. They probably are filled up - but there are always drop outs and no shows and the waiting list kids usually do get a spot. My son loved camp and always had a great time. The teen camps tend to run over the entire length of the summer - with every other week end home.
You are taking heat from a few goof ballz for looking at caps - I assume she wants to go; and I know how wonderful a summer at camp can be. It could be very very good for her after a 'Program' experience.
I have been looking at Outward Bounds canyon hike for myself. I love those canyons in South Utah. Just love 'em. They have a week long hike they do and I would so much love to try it. I worry about my knee and asthma. I could barely breath at the top of Bryce; and if I had tried to hike down to the canyon floor - I seriously doubt I could've made it back up. But even so, I am sorely tempted to give it a go. Maybe next year. . .
http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/ (http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/)
http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/c ... t_170.html (http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/course/southwest_canyoneering_-_xt_170.html)
You might want to look at their Ascent corses for your Grand daughter.
// Spots said: "Being faced this summer with the prospect of a bored 15-year-old around our busy ranch."
Bored on a busy ranch?????//
Maybe shes not into horses. Either you are or your not.
"
Thanks anon (LOL) KB.
:silly:
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What's up with this kid's parents and why aren't they raising their own daughter? Sounds to me like the folks and Spots need to focus on their own "emotional growth" issues and could all benefit from an Outward Bound reality jolt.
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Hi Spots -
I want to second the motion to look at Outward Bound. They operate a first class outdoor program in varied areas with many exciting opportunities. The people are professional and Safety is stressed.
kb, are you recommending a program you know nothing about...other than of course what you have been told by others or by what you have read? Have you been to outward bound?
You people are amazing. Why doesn't Spots take her granddaughter camping...spend time with her, one on one...show her the love she needs...instead of sending her off yet again with strangers.
If she has been abused in the way Spots claims she was, then the child needs to be surrounded by those who love her...not fellow campers who can no more relate to what she has been through then the man in the moon. Unless of course, she really has not been through much at all.
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This is 28 year old info but Outward Bound once
ran or helped run the outdoors part of Hyde School's
"summer school" a couple of years before I was
there in 1976. Aparently, OB ended the deal when
they realized Hyde was crazy.Guard with jealous attention the public Liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that Jewel. Unfortunately, Nothing will Preserve it but downright Force. Whenever you Give Up that Force, you are ruined.....The Great Object is that every man be armed.....Everyone who is able may have a gun.
- Patrick Henry
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I think most people have figured out this kid could use a vacation from her overly controlling and judgmental grandmother and her own parents who Spots has alleged emotionally abused her. Whatever the case may be, it's clear MONEY does not buy everything and most likely, what this girl really needs is for the adults in her life to GROW UP!
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This thread really took a U-turn!
When you were truly afraid for your child's life due to the decisions being made, when it was truly out of your control, you asked for help.
When you asked for help from the schools, law enforcement, insurance, relatives, what finally led you to your program/school?
If you pulled your child out before completion, what are you doing now that you didn't do then?
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WHen the school, law enforcement and local rehabs/therapists weren't able to help, we turned to friends, relatives and neighbors asking if they knew of ANYTHING or anyone that could help. Bottom line was that if he didn't want help, there really was nothing I could do. That's the M.O. of addiction - denial. I found out about the program from my daughter who had a former grade school friend go. I talked with her and she said it was tough at first following rules. She said even alcohol poisioning before she went in wasnt' enough to think she was doing anything wrong. That on top of everything else, and she was still in denial. It took going against her will to make her take a deep look at what she wanted from her life, and it wasn't anyone telling her that, she figured it out herself. Her parents did everything they could, but it was too late by the time they saw the signs to get her to agree to any kind of treatment. Such is life in mainstream America. Go with the flow and you could die, or you could live and grow out of it, or not. Or you could be telling people how bad being in one of these schools is, only because you are in denial about why your parents chose to help you. Can you spell DENIAL???
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What about the parents of kids who were NOT on drugs? Will we ever hear from them about what formulated their decision?
The biggest problem most of us have with these programs is that a LOT of kids did not have bonafide addictions, and some had never used drugs at all - and the programs still accepted them and held them... I knew of a girl who was trapped in one of these programs for taking Dexatrim (over the counter diet pill) It was the first package she bought... she said she took maybe four pills before her mother found them. Yes, she was chubby. The girl needed a dietician - not a drug rehab. They even put her kid sister in - for no other reason than that she was a related minor.
This is just one of the ridiculous examples.
Yes, some kids get into some bad stuff. It scares the hell out of parents. But each case is individual, and needs to be dealt with by true professionals, not emotional peers, parents of peers, or militant parents of graduates who's only credential is "passionate parent".
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Why would a parent of a teen not using drugs enroll their child in a therapeutic residential boarding school?
Life threatening behaviors like - cutting, anorexia, anger, bulemia, ADD/ADHD symptoms like self-control, low self-esteem, literally pulling their hair out strand by strand (forgot the term) failing school or quitting...these are some.
So the parents made mistakes in parenting, listening, communicating, but if they find the right school, they will all be better for it and are better in these areas.
If you think that it should be the decision of the teen to go, you've not experienced life with a teen out of (self)control.
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Kids can be helped without being locked up in some hellhole program. You parents who keep insisting you "tried everything" are not fooling anybody, least of all your own children, who by the way, you can not even be certain are not crying themselves to sleep tonight, wishing like hell their parents loved them enough to bring them home and get them some REAL treatment.
:evil:
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On 2004-06-05 23:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why would a parent of a teen not using drugs enroll their child in a therapeutic residential boarding school?
Life threatening behaviors like - cutting, anorexia, anger, bulemia, ADD/ADHD symptoms like self-control, low self-esteem, literally pulling their hair out strand by strand (forgot the term) failing school or quitting...these are some.
So the parents made mistakes in parenting, listening, communicating, but if they find the right school, they will all be better for it and are better in these areas.
If you think that it should be the decision of the teen to go, you've not experienced life with a teen out of (self)control. "
So, are you saying you would send a kid away for having a low self esteem, pulling their hair out strand by strand (some people with obsessive compulsive disorder do this) or for failing in school??? What if your kid is failing out of school because they have an undiagnosed learning disability?? I'm sure that could also cause low self esteem. Obsessive compulsive disorder is completly treatable for most people by going to a good therapist and getting on medication if needed. You don't have to send your kid away or lock them up for these things. Oh, and the angry thing, are you joking? Who would send their kid away because they were angry? I guess I could maybe understand if their health is at risk because they have an eating disorder and throw up everything they eat or even if they are a cutter and hurting themselves badly but even then why not get them help somewhere in your community? They need their families to be close by and participate in their treatment. Can you imagine having just one of these problems and being sent away to some place where you are away from your family and know no one? I can.
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On 2004-06-05 23:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why would a parent of a teen not using drugs enroll their child in a therapeutic residential boarding school?
How about sick parents projecting their sickness on their kids? That was my case - my mother got sick of me throwing her drugs of choice into the city sewer system.
How about the "Munchausen's Syndrome" types of parents that were so hell bent on believing and/or convincing others that their kid had a drug problem because THEY were getting off on the sympathy they were getting from the support groups and the neighbors?
How about the Militant types of parents that locked up their sons for having long hair, and their daughters for having an extra hole in their ear, because it was a 'warning sign'?
Oh yeah, and did you read my post about the chubby girl who was locked up for taking Dextatrim?
There's a couple of reasons why. :smokin:
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On 2004-06-05 23:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
Life threatening behaviors like - cutting, anorexia, anger, bulemia, ADD/ADHD symptoms like self-control, low self-esteem, literally pulling their hair out strand by strand (forgot the term) failing school or quitting...these are some.
What Program proponants refuse to see is that all of these kinds of behaviors are common signs of a particular type of abuse. These are the kinds of thinks people do when they feel helpless and smothered by some external control. Like, for example, kids who have no one to talk to when they're feeling distressed because the adults in their lives routinely freak out and over-react to every little thing.
To these kinds of parents, I suppose it makes perfect sense to place the kid in an environment where they will be controled completely, punished severely for expressing any displeasure about it and, in the end, brainwashed into believing that this is normal. Come the millennium,
month 12,
in the home of greatest power,
the village idiot will come forth to
be acclaimed the leader.
--Nostradamus
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So that's a reason to get help that will not only help the kids, but the parents too! That's when counseling, etc., has failed to - it's not a first choice due to the separation and the cost, but it's not too late to help the whole family...yet. Quit blaming the parents if they now see they were part of the problem and want help.
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On 2004-06-06 13:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So that's a reason to get help that will not only help the kids, but the parents too! That's when counseling, etc., has failed to - it's not a first choice due to the separation and the cost, but it's not too late to help the whole family...yet. Quit blaming the parents if they now see they were part of the problem and want help."
My kid, when she was two, just "wanted to help," too.
It didn't keep me from having to do twice as much work having to undo the mess she made *and* do what I was working on.
It's moderately cute and half exasperating in a two year old.
It's inexcusable in an adult.
Timoclea
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literally pulling their hair out strand by strand (forgot the term)
Tricotillomania.
And as another poster commented, it is related to OCD, and the same medications and therapy that helps a hand washer and checker can help the hair puller.
IN sever cases, this needs to be in-patient.
It is the consistency, frequency and intensity of the therapy that requires in-patient care. It simply can't be provided in home or out patient in many cases.
The real tragedy is when the family is sold some "residential program' as if it is therapeutic when in fact it is instead just an abusive neglectful brain washing scam.
Ginger, what you say is true. Even so, it is far from the whole story when trying to understand the why and what fors of such disorders. Genetics play a large role. Far larger than was believed even ten years ago. I personally believe environmental factors *sometimes* play a role in how sever the disorders becomes; but not why its there.
And as for the environmental factors that do exasperate these disorders: I personally believe this is the result of the common use of day care for infants; not the home itself.
I personally believe that we have many more disorders in epidemic proportions because of the common use of day care for babies.
Where a generation ago, the genetic tendency was present in much of the population; the environmental factors needed to make the problem bloom in the brain of the child were rare.
Now, we have a whole generation of children who have been in day care from 6 weeks of age; and we have an epidemic of mental illness in this generation.
If you look at the kind of neglect and treatment that was once blamed for OCD and Tric and BPD for example; If you will be honest; You will have to admit is present in the day care environment just as a matter of fact.
The neglect and cold detachment that helps these disorders to flourish is not needed to be extreme when we are talking about the developing brain of infants.
This is just my opinion; but I am convinced I am right.
And so, it may turn out that more damage is done in Day Care at the age of 2; than in 'a program' at the age of 12.
Not that some programs don't make matters much worse. PTSD complicates all these problems immesurably.
But -if we weren't so commonly using day care for our babies - there may well be no market for these programs for our teens.
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I doubt daycare plays a role in the increase in serotonin/dopamine deficit-based disorders.
You pointed out the disorders are genetic.
Look at the time frame for when we started having lithium salts, antipsychotics (which are abusive given to normal people, but a *great* boon to schizophrenics and psychotic bipolars), and antidepressants.
ECT is also effective on major depressives, done in one *moderate* course of say, six sessions.
The thing is, effective treatments allow people like me (I have bipolar II disorder---it has the highest rate of completed suicide of any mental illness) to survive to have kids.
What that means is that people like me used to be weeded out of the gene pool, but now survive to have children. Which means a next generation with more mentally ill people in it.
Look, I'm all in favor of medication for people with major mental illnesses---it saved my life. And I'm *not* pushing some 21st century eugenics line.
I'm just admitting that the downside of saving the lives of people with major genetic illnesses like mine is more people with major genetic illnesses.
It's a downside I firmly believe we'll cope with as a society until gene therapy gives us a cure. I think that breakthrough will happen within a generation.
I also think that they'll be able to recode the genes of people like me to reduce the number of bipolar genes below the threshhold that causes mental illness (in small doses, the genes help make you smart and creative)---making it so our kids end up with the benefits but not the drawbacks.
But *right now* there's an epidemic of mental illness because mentally ill people, like me, have survived to pass on our genes for it to our kids.
Successful treatment is a mixed blessing. But all in all, it's the best choice we have.
It just makes continuing research in gene therapy and decoding the human genome vitally important---not only to those of us who have and carry genetic disorders, but also to society as a whole.
Timoclea
::alieneyesa::
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On 2004-06-07 09:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I doubt daycare plays a role in the increase in serotonin/dopamine deficit-based disorders.
Of course not. But I think daycare attendance plays a major role in "diagnosis" and subsiquent drugging....to disarm the people (is) the best and most effective way to enslave them...
-- George Mason
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On 2004-06-07 08:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"literally pulling their hair out strand by strand (forgot the term)
Tricotillomania.
...
Ginger, what you say is true. Even so, it is far from the whole story when trying to understand the why and what fors of such disorders. Genetics play a large role. Far larger than was believed even ten years ago. I personally believe environmental factors *sometimes* play a role in how sever the disorders becomes; but not why its there.
I'm not completely sure I accept the term "disorder" for all of these behaviors. I met a gal recently who says she sometimes responds to very stressful situations by falling asleep; some form of narcolepsy except that she doesn't just pass out, she finds a place to lay down and takes a li'll nap. Odd as this response may be, different people do different things. Some yell. Some emmerse themselves in minutea while others turn to mind altering substances in response to unmanagable stress. All of these ways of dealing have nifty psyche diagnoses to go along w/ them. But I'm not so sure any of these responses are really abnormal or at all dysfunctional, since damned near everyone uses some combination of them.
The troubled parent response to these behaviors seems to be to coerce the kid into doing a better job of stuffing it so that the parent doesn't have to see the disturbing signs of stress in their child. Some kids are able to let it roll off, but some are seriously harmed by it, even when you do it to them in the name of Jesus.
Life is like a shit sandwich; the more bread you got, the less shit you gotta eat.
--Anonymous
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From an old file. The link no longer works.
The Woodbury (StrugglingTeens)"tenative" survey results, you can find them at:
http://www.strugglingteens.com/parents/ ... aying.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/parents/parentsaresaying.html)
A summary below.
526 Participants
261 Parents and Adult Ex-Students
265 Grads, Left Earlys and Currently Enrolled
Referals: Ed Cons 76 Woodbury 87 Word of Mouth 55
(Woodbury conducted the Survey)
Behaviors that resulted in placement:
158 Drugs
122 School Failure
105 Rebellion
53 Anger
47 Law Breaking
37 Run Away
25 Negative Friends
115 Programs Represented:
9 Drug Tmnt
18 Long term Wilderness
35 Behavior Mod
37 RTC/ Psych
47 Short term Wilderness
Obeservation: Parent and Professionals speaking different languages which could lead to a lot of subtle but important miscommunications. Questions were open-ended, parents used
their own descriptions.
Rating 0=Harmful 5=very effective/
appropriate
145 rated program a 5
23 rated program a 0
Average: 3.82
Note: 1/3 were negative or unenthusiastic in their approval indicating they didn't feel they got their money's worth.
Highest Satisfaction Ratings:
Suicide 4.6 Sexual Permissiveness 4.7 Run Away 4.2
Suggested reason- structure and staff supervision.
Lowest Satisfaction Ratings:
BiPolar 3.5 Rebellion 3.67 School Failure 3.7
Suggested reason- attitudes, abstract and harder to impact.
Suggests inappropriate placements are happening too often.
23 with Highest Satisfaction Rating used Local Child Care Professionals (Psychs, Therapists, Ed Cons)
16 with Lowest Satisfaction Rating were refered to programs by other programs
Strengths of Program:
160 Staff
57 Structure
47 Therapy
29 Parent Support
24 Communication
Common Weaknesses:
62 Communication
56 Staff
23 Turnovers
Highest Satisfaction Ratings:
Emo. Growth 5
Aftercare 4.75
Consistency 4.56
Prog Planning 4.54
Communication 4.46
Lowest Satisfaction Ratings:
Therapy 1.67
Misled 1.89
Suggesting that programs promised more than they could deliver. Some participants desired more therapy.
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Hi Ginger.
what your friend does is called sleep avoidence.
Its more of a symptom of a disorder than a disorder by its self.
Weather something is a disorder or just a harmless quirk, depends upon weather and to what degree, the person's quality of life is effected.
Mild OCD is quirky.
Sever OCD is devistating to the patient and everyone in the family as well.
I hope I have never said anything you percieved as me telling a troubled soul to 'stuff it' or that I think any decent treatment program sould - Christian or not.
And, I bet you'll agree; its wrong and harmful to *insist* they spill it, as well.
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Timoclea
I have read your post with great interest; and the one before where you covered your thoughts on this matter in even greater detail.
I believe you are right. But I think I am too.
Keep in mind; I am Not saying the day care environment *caused* the disorder.
I maintain the illness is genetic, just as you do. I also maintain, that in the cases of some problems/disorders/illnesses, early child care (from birth to three years old) has a determination in how sever the situation will be in the person's life.
I am also not saying this is so for every mental illness one may have. But for some of them, I do believe this is a factor.
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On 2004-06-07 13:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Timoclea
I have read your post with great interest; and the one before where you covered your thoughts on this matter in even greater detail.
I believe you are right. But I think I am too.
Keep in mind; I am Not saying the day care environment *caused* the disorder.
I maintain the illness is genetic, just as you do. I also maintain, that in the cases of some problems/disorders/illnesses, early child care (from birth to three years old) has a determination in how sever the situation will be in the person's life.
I am also not saying this is so for every mental illness one may have. But for some of them, I do believe this is a factor."
Well, I don't know about that, *but*---I have *never* heard of it being bad for a child four or under who has a good mother to spend *more* time with Mommy.
Children four and under can use all the Mommy attention and kisses and cuddles and care they can get.
I think some forces in society do young women a great disservice when they try to make it sound like staying home with their children will be a chore and a pain and drudgery.
The *truth* is that biology makes you fall in love with that adorable little baby---babies pull at your heart strings more than the cutest little kitten or puppy you can imagine---and your own baby even more so.
The truth is that just exactly the way when you fall in love with a guy as a teenager you just want to spend every minute with True Love---when you fall in love with your baby, you just want to spend every minute with baby---nothing else seems important anymore.
Sure, you need a break now and then--baby care is hard work.
But the truth is when you have a newborn baby what you want to be for that baby's first few years is a Mommy.
I think there have to be options---sometimes no matter how you try to plan ahead, you can't afford to stay home.
But the truth should be out there----whatever you want to be *before* you have a newborn baby, when you hold that newborn baby in your arms, a couple of days after, when the hormones kick in and the reality kicks in, all you want to be for the next few years is a Mommy. And it's not what anybody's making you do, it's what you truly, deeply, genuinely, personally *want*.
The truth is that the path to happiness in life is to plan ahead to what you probably *will* want instead of trying to "get what you always wanted."
The reason's simple. What we want changes. There's nothing in the world sadder than getting what you always wanted when *now* you want something completely different.
Timoclea