Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: kpickle39 on May 08, 2004, 06:19:00 PM
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here is the link and below is the letter.
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/05/08/Opinion (http://www.sptimes.com/2004/05/08/Opinion)
Abuse here was worse
I read your articles on the systematic abuse of Iraq prisoners who are and have been in the "care" of our military. I think it is shameful how they have been treated. However, I really don't understand all of the international fuss over it. Straight, Inc., based in St. Petersburg, systematically abused thousands of children in its "care" over the course of 17 years. The abuse the children suffered at Straight was far worse than anything the Iraqi prison have experienced and no one was held accountable.
At least in the case of the Iraq prisoners those responsible for the systematic abuse will be held accountable. Why? Because they have the support of governments across the globe. And we saw that the U.S. government tried to hide it!
Straight, Inc., has the support of the U.S. government, and the victims of Straight have no recourse, no international outcry. I read one Iraqi prisoner's account of his abuse at the hands of the Americans. He said: I can no longer go home as I am too ashamed.
The victims of Straight can no longer go "home."
-- Richard R. Bradbury, victims of Straight advocate, Tampa
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Damn, that's a really intense statement.
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The abuse the children suffered at Straight was far worse than anything the Iraqi prison have experienced and no one was held accountable.
I can't agree with this. I really wish he hadn't said that. Was that his quote? The link doesn't work.
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Try this one:
http://sptimes.com/2004/05/08/Opinion/P ... _Ira.shtml (http://sptimes.com/2004/05/08/Opinion/Prisoner_abuse_in_Ira.shtml)
p.s., scroll about 7/8ths the way down.
Ken[ This Message was edited by: ramprato on 2004-05-08 19:56 ]
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As far as the abuse goes, I think that you could say 6 for the one & half-dozen for the other...
They were both horrible in different ways.
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that the abuse at straight was really "far worse" than that, but the part about no one being held accountable for it couldn't be more true...
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I buzzed into the St. Pete Times website. By the way, you have to switch to TEXT ONLY to find what you are looking for or you will lose your goddamn mind trying to find it. I found Richards letter in the OPINION section about 3/4 of the way down once you switch to TEXT ONLY using K pickle's link.
As far as what Richard wrote, I agree wholeheartedly with it. The Iraqi's were treated better. At least they had 3 nutritious meals, plenty of fluids and were excersised regularly in clothing optional conditions. They were not forced to sit and flap their arms like a turkey on PCP and made to "relate" to fabricated shit to earn the "privelege" of attending a public school while stripped of all personal belongings, past, future, personality and talent all in order to line someones pocket and make it possible to ensnare even more gullible families into a phantom "Drug War."
But alas, nobody in the Bay Area seems to give a shit. I am surprised the paper even printed the statement to be quite honest. I worked for the St. Pete Times for 3 and 1/2 years and it is the most contrived, self serving bullshit rag in the entire region. You'll find more truth in the paper that you wipe your ass with. I want to get together with some professionals in the media, maybe a reporter from the Weekly Planet and get our story told before the sands of time start closing in to bury our past completely.
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bit of a overstatement to say that people in Straight were treated worse than Iraqi prisoners. Strong, inaccurate statements like these only reduce the credibility of the people that spout them.
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To the previoius anon poster, I have one thing to say; obviously you didn't go through straight inc at th same time as I did (maybe you never were in the prgram at all). Straight St. Pete sounded very similar in many ways to what went on w/the Iraqi prisoners. No, I never had to jack off in front of someone, but my oldcomer did it in front of me; we were paraded around naked during mass strip searches, I slept on a tarraza floor for over almost 50 days. If you want to discuss the "finer" points of straight and the treatment of Iraqi prisoners, I am willing to do that. My email is kpickle39@aol.com
You see, I know what went on in Straight, Inc...I was there.
Sincerely,
Michael Sherman, Straight Survivor
St. Petersburg 1978 - 1980
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On 2004-05-09 05:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"bit of a overstatement to say that people in Straight were treated worse than Iraqi prisoners. Strong, inaccurate statements like these only reduce the credibility of the people that spout them."
:roll: Why don't you just come off it and let us all know who you are? You probably weren't even in Straight or one of its related programs to even make such a profound 'judgment'. How convenient of you to post anonymously, gee thanks...
Yes, it's true I don't remember being chained up naked with a bunch of other prisoners, or leashed around the neck like a dog. But I DO remember being led around by the pants and what kind of garbage that was. I remember the sleep deprivation, I remember the constant yelling and drilling, I remember hearing about things from other people or saying myself that whether they were true or not, belonged in psychiatrists offices and not in the public. I remember tons of extortions everyday done onto people.
Are you too dense, or just too damned self-seving to even SEE the pattern here? Those pictures and (soon videos) of those prisoners taken were done originally for extortion purposes to get them to 'talk'. If you were one of those assholes that fucked around with us in Straight you already know this. You know that the govt is using what they learned by people that went through Straight along with other developed brainwashing ideals to mess with those Iraqi prisoners big-time.
Such dehumanization is unacceptable in any culture, but it is especially so in the Arab world religion/culture of Islam, grouping men together naked forcefully is ripping right into their soles, Homosexually is an abomination in that religion and that tactic in my opinion was used to bring on total SHAME to those individuals as well as take pictures of them like that so they would know in the back of their minds that those existed, that was just one tactic used to pump 'information'. In the religion/culture of Islam, their ideas of women are different than a westerners too, and to have a FEMALE drag them around was the epitome of SHAME once again and 'let's not forget to get this on camera to intensify the experience', what a wonderful mentality our government has - NOT.
You are really some kind of sideliner. One of those people the world can always count on to sit on their hands and NEVER take any kind of action to bring out the truth. Thanks a lot for all the "help" you loser. What in the hell do you know about credibility??? Mind control is Mind control & I don't care who it's happening to, it's WRONG no matter what methods they use to achieve it either in Iraq or here.
[ This Message was edited by: ramprato on 2004-05-09 07:17 ][ This Message was edited by: ramprato on 2004-05-09 07:25 ][ This Message was edited by: ramprato on 2004-05-09 08:20 ][ This Message was edited by: ramprato on 2004-05-09 08:25 ]
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Ok, who can say for sure which Program location was worse than another at any given time? In Sarasota, they threatened us w/ St. Pete. In St. Pete, they threatened them w/ Sarasota. It was all bullshit. A mindfuck.
Would you rather be an Iraqi prisoner in Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo Bay than a kid in the Program? I don't know if I would. It's just hard to say.
I don't think it matters all that much one way or the other. But there are aspects to this story that are very relavent to our story. Like it or not, the people who ran the Program are the same ones who run the prisons. And this mantra that the admin has been repeating lately; "inexperienced, untrained reserves" is bullshit. Turns out that a bunch of the people involved in the Abu Ghraib scandal are corrections officers back home. This is what they do for a living and this is probably about how they do it. Sorry if you don't want to believe that, but it's true.
"One commentator pointed out that when the mafia commits violence, no
one suggests we bomb Sicily. Today it seems we are, in a symbolic way, not only bombing "Sicily," but are thinking about bombing "Athens" (Iraq)."
Ron Paul, 11/29/01 Speech before Congress
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?To the previoius anon poster, I have one thing to say; obviously you didn't go through straight inc at th same time as I did (maybe you never were in the prgram at all).?
Obviously I didn?t, I remember no person named kpickle39, nor was I in the St. Petersburg facility.
?Straight St. Pete sounded very similar in many ways to what went on w/the Iraqi prisoners.?
No doubt, and I never contested that. I said, ?bit of a overstatement to say that people in Straight were treated worse than Iraqi prisoners. Strong, inaccurate statements like these only reduce the credibility of the people that spout them.? There are many similarities, but to say that those in Straight were treated worse than Iraqi prisoners is a drastic overstatement. It?s almost as drastic an overstatement as saying that those who attended Straight were treated worse than the Jews during the Nazi holocaust.
?No, I never had to jack off in front of someone, but my oldcomer did it in front of me; we were paraded around naked during mass strip searches, I slept on a tarraza floor for over almost 50 days.?
Sorry to hear about your inappropriate sexual encounters and living conditions in Straight.
?If you want to discuss the "finer" points of straight and the treatment of Iraqi prisoners, I am willing to do that.?
I would be willing to discuss the ?finer? points of Straight with you, however the story of abuse and Iraqi prisoners is still being uncovered, and unless you have witnessed the conditions of Iraqi prisoners personally, I doubt that you can discuss the ?finer? points of Iraqi prisons with me. We are all waiting for the full story to be uncovered.
?Why don't you just come off it and let us all know who you are? You probably weren't even in Straight or one of its related programs to even make such a profound 'judgment'. How convenient of you to post anonymously, gee thanks...?
Why should I come out and let all of you know who I am? (As if ramprato discloses who you are?) I wasn?t aware that I made any ?profound judgment?. I made an observation. One that is correct. Posting anonymously is convenient, if you do not like it that is unfortunate for you. You are welcome.
?Yes, it's true I don't remember being chained up naked with a bunch of other prisoners, or leashed around the neck like a dog. But I DO remember being led around by the pants and what kind of garbage that was. I remember the sleep deprivation, I remember the constant yelling and drilling, I remember hearing about things from other people or saying myself that whether they were true or not, belonged in psychiatrists offices and not in the public. I remember tons of extortions everyday done onto people.?
So what is the problem with my observation? You obviously agree. Iraqi prisoners are being treated worse than the majority of clients that went through Straight.
?Are you too dense, or just too damned self-seving to even SEE the pattern here? Those pictures and (soon videos) of those prisoners taken were done originally for extortion purposes to get them to 'talk'. If you were one of those assholes that fucked around with us in Straight you already know this. You know that the govt is using what they learned by people that went through Straight along with other developed brainwashing ideals to mess with those Iraqi prisoners big-time.?
Dense? I suppose that assumption is relevant to whom you speak with. Self-serving? Definitely, all humans are to a certain extent. I never disputed that there seems to be a pattern, and I fully agree that there are similarities. I am definitely an asshole, and of course I ?fucked around? with others in Straight (though not literally). Everyone that completed the program had to play a part, you as well, if you ever completed the program. I believe that the government is probably partially using research from Straight to ?mess? with the Iraqi prisoners. That is only an assumption, as I have yet to see any evidence that links Straight to Iraqi prisoners. If you have anything besides circumstantial evidence of this, which I already have plenty of; I would be interested in seeing it.
?Such dehumanization is unacceptable in any culture, but it is especially so in the Arab world religion/culture of Islam,?
I agree, and even though I know little of Arab and Islamic culture, I can accept that statement as being accurate.
?You are really some kind of sideliner. One of those people the world can always count on to sit on their hands and NEVER take any kind of action to bring out the truth. Thanks a lot for all the "help" you loser. What in the hell do you know about credibility??? Mind control is Mind control & I don't care who it's happening to, it's WRONG no matter what methods they use to achieve it either in Iraq or here.?
Yes I am a sideliner, so are most people that post on this board. You are also right in saying that I have no desire to bring out the truth. I am more concerned with picking up the pieces of shattered lives left behind by these organizations. I have offered you or any others in Straight any meaningful help, as I am not qualified to do so. Once I am qualified to do so I will. I have been a looser for quite some time, but my current track should eventually remove such statements from being accurate. I know plenty about credibility, and the more knowledge I gain the more about credibility I understand. You are obviously the one lacking knowledge as to what qualifies as credible. I agree that mind control is an unethical practice.
If people?s stories about Straight are to be believed, inaccurate statements must be excluded, especially strong statements meant solely for the purpose of agitation and inflammation. Those who have knowledge and education look for fallacy, and when it is seen, the stories are discounted. The more fallacy that is introduced, the less credible everyone?s story becomes to people. It will be very important to me that I be viewed as credible, not to survivors of Straight, but to the scientific community. That should be important to survivors of Straight as well. Do not practice self-sabotage. It harms us all.
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Look Anon,
I have to admit that I came across too harsh in my post to you and for that I'm sorry. Maybe I took what you wrote the wrong way.
"bit of a overstatement to say that people in Straight were treated worse than Iraqi prisoners."
Got to say that this statement really threw me off for a minute, but people have a right to their opinion, as I have mine. Originally I felt like you were saying people in Straight didn't take abuse, but now, I don't think you were saying that at all. I think you are just stating your own opinion and that you just disagree with Richard.
I don't think you're dense, I was just flying off the handle, and if you don't want to give yourself name and remain anonymous, whatever...
But I will say that I am proud of Richard for taking the stand that he has, and that's my opinion.
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?But I will say that I am proud of Richard for taking the stand that he has, and that's my opinion.?
I admire Richard as well. He?s done a lot of good work. He just needs to watch himself. It is common for those of us who have survived abuse to view our situations as ?worse? than others. What we suffered through was a great tragedy, though many have suffered far worse. Probably few of the people who suffered abuse in Straight, would trade their experience for those abused in Iraq. I have yet to hear a story of murder followed by necrophilia that took place in Straight.
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Dear Anonymous,
Why do you support Melvin Sembler ? Why do you support the rape of children and Iraqui prisoners ??? Why do you hide like you are winking as if you know something we don't ? You don't.
You are singular and know nothing. You are ONE anonymously and you do not exist. We are many, you are none. You seek to belong and yet you do not.
The ONE and ONLY anonymous poster, that has mental problems cos it keeps acting like its different people, does not affect my judgement in the least.
Its' been here since the inception of fornits from what I have seen and read. The one 'Anonymous' postor who comes here to post and does not reveal itself is clearly a bot.
What I am hypothesizing is that there will be a part of anything and everything that maintains the doubting portion which allows for existence and lets us all know we are not crazy. But its just a heckler. Someday it will not do this when it grows mature.
So, when I see the one poster who has always come here and called itself 'Anonymous' I know that it just means that what I'm doing is correct in a very real fashion.
Again, there is only ONE Anonymous poster, and only ONE poster named Anonymous. Nobody likes it, it makes no sense. Noone wants it, yet it continues to dodge and shuck and jive in its soggy cold diaper while it begs for someone to change it.
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How many of those Iraqi prisoners have permanent damage that causes physical pain? Cause I'm going on 22 f-n years and counting!
And speaking of those prisoners - they were conspiring to kill Americans - and that's why they're being detained. They're terrorists.
Were any of them sleep-deprived or beaten for days on end? Were they forced to sit in their own urine or feces? Did they put diapers on them and force them to sit in cribs? Did they put them in four-point restraints and rip their arms out of their sockets? Did they sit on them until their ribs broke?
Don't for a second say those f-n Iraqi's have it worse off than those of us that were in Straight.
Richard was RIGHT ON with his comment!!
(Besides - the soldiers that did that were probably from New Jersey or Texas). :roll:
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Are you f-n serious? First of all, to try and draw a comparison between the two is just stupid. I mean, I guess if you want people to think that we're all a bunch of impulsive tongued nitwits, then he was "right on" in his choice of words. Otherwise, those people were human beings, just like you and I. We invaded their country! We were the ones who decided to take the Middle East on in the first place, and they?ve been at war for how many thousands of years now? Of course they want to kill us! They think of us as the enemy! Isn't that what war is?! All of the reasons the US gave for going to war were false and unproven. We found no weapons of mass destruction! Our president has made a fool of himself! Yes, we were attacked by terrorists first, but I truly believe that that was a more personal attack at our current administration, (mainly between the Bush family and Bin Laden family) and didn?t warrant taking Iraq to war. (My opinion, different topic.)
Regardless, Richard said that our abuse was worse than theirs. He's not talking about if they deserved it or not, he's comparing the abuse. THAT'S what makes it so STUPID. How would he know, was he a POW in Iraq too? No. What an unproductive way to get people to lend an ear in our direction. Why negate someone else's agony to make a point?
I agree with the Anonymous who said, ?bit of a overstatement to say that people in Straight were treated worse than Iraqi prisoners. Strong, inaccurate statements like these only reduce the credibility of the people that spout them.?
And, "If people?s stories about Straight are to be believed, inaccurate statements must be excluded, especially strong statements meant solely for the purpose of agitation and inflammation. Those who have knowledge and education look for fallacy, and when it is seen, the stories are discounted. The more fallacy that is introduced, the less credible everyone?s story becomes to people. It will be very important to me that I be viewed as credible, not to survivors of Straight, but to the scientific community. That should be important to survivors of Straight as well. Do not practice self-sabotage. It harms us all."
Torture is torture, and wrong despite what type you?re referring to, but to take away from one, to defend another, is unjust. So, to answer your questions, yes, there was at least one guy, (that we know of) beaten to death. They were forced to act out sodomy on each other. They had electrodes attached to one guy?s testicles, and were shocking him if he moved from the box he was standing on. Not to mention, they didn?t get diapers, they were naked, and forced to pile on top of each other. I could only guess that they couldn?t have had acceptable facilities to urinate and defecate into, nor opportunities to bathe at all for that matter, and I?ll just betcha they weren?t/aren't getting a proper night?s sleep either. Needless to say, the way those prisoners were/are treated, who knows what bones they?ve broken that remain untreated. Do you really think they're giving them adequate medical attention when all is said and done? On a mental note, do you actually think you're mental anguish has been worse than theirs? Just thank God you're not an Iraqi citizen. That statement is pure rubbish. Who are you to quantify someone else?s suffering?
My last problem with your post Leigh Bright, is to say that, ?The soldiers that did that must have been from Texas or New Jersey? just sounds really opinionated and irrational of you. I may know what you mean, but the rest of the world, who know nothing about the Straights, wouldn't.
I think a lot of people might be afraid of speaking out AGAINST what Richard is doing, at least on this board anyway. I for one can't continue to think that what he's doing, at the moment, is in any way helping us win our war against Straight, Inc. and Straight-like treatment centers.
I hope he proves me wrong.
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Sunday evening 5-16,
I found both Leigh Bright and Leslie's post to be articulate and well thought out. Why don't the two of you work together? How's the book coming Leigh? I think the two of you put together could have it finished and in the bookstores come Christmas.
On the homefront, I discovered that Mel Sembler actually owns a new Eckerd Drugs mega store here in St. Petersburg. Maybe this way he can get his new improved TURBO CHARGED NITRO-JET FUNNY CAR PENIS PUMP with Dual Overhead Viagra Injection System in complete and total privacy without anyone being able to find out about it. If all goes well, he will die of either a massive heart attack or a super deluxe brain anuerism the first time he tries it out on his mistress. Yes mistress!, you don't think that with all his money, that he is gonna go to all that trouble to gain an erection just for his wrinkled old hag of a wife do you?
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Bob, there's no 'e' on the end of my name, (I swear, it's on my birth certificate that way) and I changed the 's' to a 'z.' :wink:
People can be in the same positions, yet have different opinions.
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Funny, I don't remember seeing video of Americans beheading Iraqis, or disemboweling them, dragging their bodies through the streets behind a car and hanging them from a bridge with their entrails hanging out of their bodies. :roll:
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85 day Jerk,
Thanks for once again making me spit coffee all over my keyboard. Please don't ever stop...........ya kill me at times!
Your DA Bomb!
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Funny, I don't remember seeing video of Americans beheading Iraqis, or disemboweling them, dragging their bodies through the streets behind a car and hanging them from a bridge with their entrails hanging out of their bodies.
Well, we weren't discussing the Iraqi terrorist's torture of American soldiers vs. the American soldier's torture of Iraqi terrorists/soldiers. The subject was the quote, "The torture of Straight, Inc. was worse than the torture that the Iraqi POWs received." Remember?
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OK so the topic changed from the original post. Well thus is the nature of an open forum. One discussion leads to another.
Geneva convention or not never have these rules been followed in war. Only the higher ups with access to media will be treated with some dignity. For example do you think they would have dared to put Saddam in the human pyramid? Hell no, it is the poor everyday Joe who gets such lovely treatment. Those with some actual culpability will never suffer such inhumanity. However war is war and merely asking over tea for information won't work.
I personally would go back to Straight over Iraq anyday (during war or peace time.) That is my opinion. But I can not begin to say my way is right b/c I only form my ideas from my personal experience.
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You said "all the reasons the U.S. gave for going to war with Iraq was false and unproven." Was it?
Quite personally the fact that women aren't being rounded up and raped and brutalized by Sadam's sons, et. al. anymore is reason enough to go to war. Have you any idea what it's like to be a woman living in the middle east? So who cares about the weapons of mass destruction which, according to rumor - are on ships at sea, all I really care about is that we liberated some people from a madman. Isn't that enough?
And as far as the abuse - let's compare:
*Children have killed themselves post-program and it was WAY more than one (although if a prisoner was murdered, the soldiers responsible should go to prison or the chair - agreed).
*(Who is your source for the ejaculation report?)
And that happened in the program too - with boys on boys. I've got a bevy of disgusting stories that make that look like a day in the park
*Acted out sodomy - how lovely - numerous boys were RAPED by other boys; at least one female survivior claims she was raped by a male staff member; and for your information RICHARD QUIT Straight and began a one-man protest of the program because a female staff member was raping female participants and no one at Straight would put an end to it!! Did you know that?!
*The man with the electrodes was NOT hooked up to anything - they used the same lying FEAR tactics that were used on us kids - and please keep in mind that the guy who they did that too is a freaking terrorist and getting what he dished out to his fellow man (not that this makes it right - just making a point that this is a murderer who would gladly cut your throat if given the opportunity)
*Naked on top of each other - that was done because they wanted to humiliate them - and because nudity like that is against their religion. That is soldiers being a-holes and it's wrong - agreed. But we were forced to shower with other females - and I was at an age when I wasn't exposed to such openness - I went to Christian school - and they think about nudity the same as the Muslims; and again - others were touched and molested in the program - only they didn't have any pictures to prove it.
*The prisoners get as much sleep as any other prisoner in an American jail; the cells have toilets; a prisoner is a prisoner and yes, I do think we give them adequate medical attention. I sat in jail watching a heroin addict withdraw in front of me and they didn't do a damn thing for her - so please cry me a river about the way the Iraqis are treated - our own Americans are being beaten and raped every day - why aren't you shouting about them? And the boy in Straight who had 2 broken ribs that had healed when he was taken for treatment for the 3rd broken rib - HE did not get adequate treatment - nor did ANY of us who were in the program. I have multiple stories about this - and I witnessed a lot in this regards too.
And yes - I do think our anguish has been worse than theirs. I was a pot smoker and a child. They are adult terrorists who murder people for the sheer joy of taking out an "American infidel." How could you possibly compare a child to an adult terrorist? Of course it was worse for us!
Who am I? I'm an American citizen who watched in horror as my fellow citizens perished at the hands of people you're feeling pity for.
Sure, prisoners shouldn't be mistreated - but let's not forget who the prisoners are. WE were children - and THEY are adults who choose to be terrorists, and plot to murder YOU AND ME!
Opinionated and irrational? I was joking when I said Texas or New Jersey - and you know I was referring to the program - but I see your point and I'll make sure in the future I keep looky-loos in mind before I speak.
And last Lezli - are you aware that Richard shut the Straight program down? Shouldn't you be fanning him with palms - rather than trying to hang him on a cross?
You may not agree with Richard's methods - but damn it - he's gotten the attention, hasn't he? As far as I'm concerned - he did it right the first time around - so I'm sure he knows exactly what he's doing this time too. I support him 100% and I'm eager to see how it all unfolds!
Richard is a hero in my book. And I mean that both literally as well as figuratively.
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And last Lezli - are you aware that Richard shut the Straight program down? Shouldn't you be fanning him with palms - rather than trying to hang him on a cross?
:roll:
Of course I'm aware of that. I disagreed with his statement. I'm not defending terrorists! I'm saying, to compare the two, (in my opinion) is unjust and unwarranted. "Fanning him with palms, instead of hang him on a cross?" -- Why do you always sound like a total fanatic when you mention anything regarding Christianity?
You say, "Let's compare abuse." I say, "There's no comparison!" Again, who the hell are you to judge? I didn't just ask you who you were, I added, "to quantify someone else's suffering?" So your reply came no where near answering my question. Instead, you merely justified (to yourself) why it's okay to judge another human being's pain.
?Looky loos?? ? You mean the people you want to buy and read your book perhaps? If you want people to listen to you, and believe you, you need to sound credible.
I've stated many times here that I support and respect Richard's fight, and wouldn?t doubt that his effort merits heroic recognition, but I don't agree with his statement.
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*(Who is your source for the ejaculation report?
Correction on this. Those were from Hungry, not Iraq.
http://aztlan.net/iraqi_women_raped.htm (http://aztlan.net/iraqi_women_raped.htm)
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That was me.
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"Quite personally the fact that women aren't being rounded up and raped and brutalized by Sadam's sons, et. al. anymore is reason enough to go to war. Have you any idea what it's like to be a woman living in the middle east? So who cares about the weapons of mass destruction which, according to rumor - are on ships at sea, all I really care about is that we liberated some people from a madman. Isn't that enough? "
Come on Leigh! Do you really think that because women are abused and it's a bitch to be a woman and live in the middle east and that we liberated some folks that the war is justified? Hell no it isn't enough to go to war to liberate people from a madman or becasue a certain class of people are abused. There are at least a dozen or more just like Saddam in this world. Do you think we should go and invade all those countries as well? It is easy to say that " . . . we liberated some people from a mad man...isn't that enough" I don't want my son going off to war for our president's revenge and to get his oil buddies rich.
The neo-cons that run this country would like to try adn convience the american people that they do warring to "liberte" . NOT - oil my friend Leigh, Oil and power is why they do it. Read about project for a new american century. look it up on the internet. That is why they want to invade. The paper was authored by thepeople that run the current administration. We ain't done warring yet and we don't war to be the good guys of the world anymore. Thanks George, et all (republicans) you shits.
[ This Message was edited by: kpickle39 on 2004-05-18 11:11 ]
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It wasnt proven anywhere to me that these prisoners are terrorists.
Wrong is wrong. I point again to the Geneva convention. Period.
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These people in Abu Garaib (sic) have not yet been convicted in a court of law, therefore they cannot be called terrorists.
Hell Rumsfeld calls everyone terrorists.
They arent all Terrorists just like the kids in straight werent all druggies..
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And I'm saying that to compare the two (in my opinion) IS just and warranted.
It's funny - we are arguing the exact same points - only from opposite sides of the fence.
And yet - I haven't criticized you even once, whereas you have criticized me multiple times!
Furthermore, I'm surprised that you would be so passionate about the treatment of these prisoners - while being so nasty to me.
In case you forgot, I'm a human being too.
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Leigh, I'm not being nasty, I'm just being blunt. Maybe it's the way you're taking it? Since you mention it though, isn?t telling me I'm trying to nail someone to a cross, a bit judgmental and nasty of you? Mike called your statement, ?crap.? Is he being nasty to you too, or simply speaking his mind? I apologize if you took it that way, but it?s not like I?m sitting here angrily typing at you to spite you. We can agree to disagree, it?s our God given right.
Again, I'm not being nasty to you, and AGAIN, I'm not "passionately" defending anyone. I'm saying there?s no comparison, it was a bad choice of words, and I don't think it's helping. I am passionate, however, about the fact that it's an unfair comparison.
Stop trying to point fingers, and just accept when someone disagrees with you.
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Some examples of mean & nasty:
"Are you serious? Trying to draw a comparison between the two is just stupid."
"I guess if you want people to think that we're all a bunch of impulsive tongued nitwits than he was right on."
"Just sounds really opinionated and irrational of you."
"Why do you always sound like a total fanatic when you mention anything regarding Christianity?"
"Judgemental"
"Justifying to yourself why it's okay to judge another human being's pain." [Which actually, you are doing when you argue whether we've suffered more or less than these prisoners - AND when you criticize Richard for making the quote]
"If you want people to listen to you, you have to be credible."
"I'm not being nasty, I'm just being blunt. Maybe it's the way you're taking it?"
"Stop trying to point fingers and just accept when someone disagrees with you."
:roll:
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On 2004-05-18 18:03:00, Lezli wrote:
"I apologize if you took it that way, but it?s not like I?m sitting here angrily typing at you to spite you. We can agree to disagree, it?s our God given right."
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"Hell no it isn't enough to go to war to liberate people from a madman because a certain class of people are abused. There are at least a dozen more just like Saddam in this world. Do you think we should go and invade all those countries as well?"
1) ::puke::
2) remind me again why we fought the Revolutionary War? Wasn't that over free-trade, taxes, and property rights? Yes, you're right. Better that people be brutalized than to live with the liberty you take for granted every day. By the way - it was YOUR kind of thinking that helped millions of Jews find their way to concentration camps & ovens before the Allies got involved and rescued them. But the U.S. KNEW what was going on over there YEARS before we stepped in. Or do you think that war was wrong too?
3) Yes I do think we should invade every country that brutalizes and oppresses their people - but that doesn't necessarily mean with soldiers.
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First off how do you invade a country without soldiers? Because as far as I know, you can't invade a country without them. If you can, I'm sure the Defense Department would really like to know how.
While you're partly correct about the reasons for the Revolutionary war you're forgetting a few things there. Yes, it was over free-trade, taxes, and property rights. It was also about freedom. The ability to self govern and the ability to decide one's own fate. Most importantly it was a revolution. Not an invasion. That war started from within. It was fought by the people, not by some other country on behalf of the colonists. There is very little to compare between the Revolutionary war and the Iraq war.
By the way - it was YOUR kind of thinking that helped millions of Jews find their way to concentration camps & ovens before the Allies got involved and rescued them. But the U.S. KNEW what was going on over there YEARS before we stepped in.
Do you realize what you just said here? Read it carefully. You?re saying that thinking that war is wrong and that America shouldn't attack every country with civil rights issues is what caused the Holocaust... I pretty much blame the Nazi's for that. Not America.
Are you saying that the Allies should have stepped in earlier to save the Jews? I think that's what you're saying (when you talk about the US knowing what was going on), but I just want to make sure. If that's the case then I whole-heartedly agree with you. Unfortunately if you know anything about history you know the impossibility of that. It would have been really hard for the Allies to have gone in and rescued the Jews any earlier than they did, what with the Nazi's invading all of Europe at the time. Finding out that something is wrong and being in a position to do something about it doesn't necessarily happen at the same time.
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Back to the topic at hand, torture is torture. When is it justifiable to torture someone? Frankly I'm going to go out on a limb here and say never. Some say it maybe justifiable because they are terrorists, I say never. Some say "but they would slit our throats" I say never. Torture is another form of terrorism is it not? Are we willing to become what we are fighting against? Will that get us any nearer to peace? You can not fight against something that you also condone.
Not to mention that the assumptions being made that all of these people being tortured are terrorists. What if one of them isn't? Is it worth torturing one innocent man if we can get the information we need? What about two innocent men? How about three? A hundred? A thousand? What if the information gathered would save the lives of our troops? Would it be okay then?
No.
And I'll tell you why. Iraq is a sticky situation, we are not fighting the Iraqi military anymore. We are fighting the Iraqis themselves. We've invaded their country. Destroyed their way of life. Killed many of their people. All of this with only the promise that we're giving them a chance for a better future. Few of these people believe us. Hell, I wouldn't if I lived there. As long as can be remembered they've been ruled over with an iron fist by some despotic madman. One after another. That's the way it's always been. So I'm sure they're a little wary of whether or not we're telling the truth. So it's part of our job to show them that their trust in us is not misplaced. We are from completely differing cultures, it's going to be hard enough for us to get them to believe that we mean the best for them. But when you throw up pictures of American soldiers torturing Iraqis it destroys that trust. Suddenly we look not that much different than the psychopath we just dethroned. That not only makes our jobs more difficult, but it makes it more dangerous. How many Iraqis, do you think, were sitting on the fence as to whether America was an invading or a liberating force? I'll bet the terrorist recruitment got a big boost the day that those pictures went public. Because someone decided that torturing Iraqi prisoners was an acceptable thing to do, a lot of Americans are going to get killed. American soldiers and American civilians. Does that justify terrorism?
And far worse things have probably happened to those prisoners that we'll never see.
Was it worse than Straight? No one will ever be able to judge that.
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Exactly!! Gepolitical policies by governments is not the way to "liberate" oppressed people. I believe we should do what we can to improve the standard of living for people in this world. If we have to assist other countries economically then that I believe that is ok. And no, my thinking isn't the same type of thinking that went on in pre war nazi. The thinking that helped millions of JEWs to the concentration camps was primarily internal to Germany. Pre-war Germany had lots of folks looking the other way. How about reminding me again of why we went to war in Iraq? To liberate folks? Yeah right; that is like saying the State of Florida turned their heads on the abuse you and I suffered at straight because they were "saving our lives". The State turned their head because it was economically expedient. We invaded Iraq mainly beacuse it was thought to be in the USA's best interest economically (oil) by the neo-cons that run this country. (Neo-cons, now that is another subject entirely) I believe that went went to war for a number of reasons, maybe liberating people from oppression was 1 of the reasons. But, I bet it was way down on the list.
So do you really think we should invade all those countries? Do you think resouces and american lives grow on trees? Who the heck do you think is gonna pay off the billions and billions and billions of dollars it is costing to just "rebuild" Iraq? Not you or me, but our children and grand kids. Can you say debt? This nation is fixin to get fucked. The powers that be have stimulated the economy since Bush took over, they have given billions and billions and billions of dollars back to the richest americans, they have dramatically cut taxes, they are spending whats left like it is water and now we are in a war. Inflation like the Carter days is a coming.
Do you have any draftable age children? I do and I sure as hell don't want him off in some other country fighting a war to "americanize" the world. I have no problems with assisting in a coup to get these dictators out; but not invasion by american boys and girls, who are usually no more than 19-22, black or a minority, or if they are white, they are usually from one of the southern states, they are generally poor or they are court ordered to serve by a judge (almost 25% of our GI's are criminals ordered to enter the military by the courts).
I could go on and on, but I gotta get to work.
Mike
[ This Message was edited by: kpickle39 on 2004-05-19 04:56 ]
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"Justifying to yourself why it's okay to judge another human being's pain.[Which actually, you are doing when you argue whether we've suffered more or less than these prisoners - AND when you criticize Richard for making the quote."
No, I wasn't weighing Richards?s pain on a scales with the Iraqi?s pain, Leigh. (Isn't that God's job, by the way?) I'm protesting his attempt to create a fallacy. There?s no way he can prove his statement. It only does us harm. Spouting untruths such as this makes us all look like prevaricators. Irrational people who exaggerate the facts, to get the public?s attention, fanatics!
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Okay verbatim -
a) You invade a country without soldiers with the utilization of spies and their allies. We call them the CIA. :roll:
b) Yes, the Revolutionary War was also about freedom - the same freedom that Iraqi's crave - and are entitled to as humans on this planet. And true - the Rev. War was fought within by the people - but they had help. Remember the French and the American Indian? They assisted the effort (although true - neither were "officially" at war with England). And last, I thought there was plenty to compare - and this is why I chose to do so.
c) Do you realize what I just said there? Read it carefully. :razz: I'm saying that having the attitude that attacking a country on behalf of the people who are being brutalized, oppressed & murdered because it "isn't our business" is the same attitude that our politicians had during that era. Furthermore, I'm not blaming America for what happened during the holocaust - I'm blaming them for knowing about it - and not doing anything - until they were forced to do something by the Japanese. (We only went after Germany because they were aligned with Japan).
d) Yes I am saying the allies should have stepped in earlier to save the Jews - as again, they knew about it multiple years earlier. In fact, a ship full of Jews tried to find safety here - and our government sent them back! How atrocious!
e) well yes - you probably have a point there. I suppose it is always easier to look back and say this or that should have been done and maybe you're right - maybe they really couldn't have done anything for the Jews sooner - and perhaps I'm just being jaded and biased toward our government for reasons I'm sure you understand. But it irritates me - knowing that they knew - and then dragged their feet. But that's so true, your last sentence. I suppose I'm just being harsh - believing the worse of the leaders of that time - when, for all I know, people could have been physically sick about not being able TO help sooner. I suppose that's something I should learn about a little more - before I speak up.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 731081.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3731081.stm)
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The victims of Straight can no longer go "home."
We're talking about the difference between Iraq and the United States here. As adults now, it?s our responsibility to make out own homes. Besides, we did go to "homes" every single night. They may not have been a great home with great surroundings and great people, but it wasn't war prison.
I will never deny that our experiences in Straight were bad, and some horrific, but do you think any of those Iraqis get the choice as an adult to go to counseling or therapy now? Do certain victims have the choice, or freedom to take their abusers to court for millions of dollars? Do we live in a world that is crumbling around us, with death everywhere, and no order?
Not many of us had a good childhood/teenhood. For most of us, it was directly related to a place called Straight, Inc. Still, after Straight, we always had the freedom to grow, learn, and make choices for ourselves. Not all of us have the families we wanted, (or who wanted us) and a lot of us come from broken homes, but I wouldn't blame 100% of that on Straight, Inc. After all, isn't it up to our parents to investigate places like this before just dropping us off? Sure, Straight used strong, fear-manipulation tactics to get us in the front door, but ultimately wasn?t it our parents who threw us out of our homes to begin with? We weren't just arrested and thrown in prison. Our parents put us there.
I know the suicide numbers, and I know the suffering. I've been through it, and have lived to tell about it. I also know that I have my own home today, and I have my own family. I've moved on to let myself heal, and grow up. I?ve received years of therapy, and stopped making bad decisions. The way I see it, if Straight is still torturing you now, that?s something internal. Take a chance, move on. We?re nothing like the people in Iraq who may never know the difference.
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That last statement is the biggest line from a movie I've ever heard. The main point is down at the bottom of it. "We?re nothing like the people in Iraq who may never know the difference". Good for you sister. Your experience with Straight before and after must have been a free ride compared to some.
I remember the movie that whole post was taken from. I remember I hated it cos it had nothing to do with reality and walked out of the theatre feeling cheated.
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At least the Iraqis had the balls to not 7th step.7steppers should not comment here about anything,except to explain where they will kill themselves so that I can come and watch.Please Bradbury,go fuck yourself and all of your 7stepper butt buddies.
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::soapbox:: ::argue:: Gets Popcorn*
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[ This Message was edited by: kpickle39 on 2004-05-28 04:28 ]
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A free ride?
There you go again, making comments on a subject you have no facts to base your opinions on.
I spent close to four years in two different child incarceration facilities, and was physicality abused and neglected for over ten years prior. Not to mention being raped and molested ages 11-15.
Stop sounding like an idiot.
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And I didn't get any line from any movie, jackass.
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On 2004-05-28 10:02:00, Lezli wrote:
"A free ride?
There you go again, making comments on a subject you have no facts to base your opinions on.
I spent close to four years in two different child incarceration facilities, and was physicality abused and neglected for over ten years prior. Not to mention being raped and molested ages 11-15.
Stop sounding like an idiot.
I'd like to add that I was homeless two years after Straight, with no family, no support, and a baby by the time I was 19.
Today, at 33, I have a wonderful life, family and home. All of these things are a result of me moving on. I have suffered many tragedies in my life, many self inflicted, and many others I had no control over. My happiness today falls nothing short of a miracle, but certainly has never been a free ride.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
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There is a difference between going thru something, looking back, learning from it and moving forward than wallowing in your childhood problems and using them for an excuse 20 or 30 years later.
Absent of mental illness, there is no reason to be stuck in that horrible time for the rest of your life.
Good job Lezli. I too went thru a horrible time after I left the program. Lost my family, my trust in authority, couldn't socialize with people properly because I had learned that confrontational style or communication,had self confidence issues and was angry and didn't even understand why.
I do now. To be that way 30 years later would be the ultimate tradegy, that is, to be unable to move past that crap.
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Did it ever occour to you that MAYBE the experience of being a victim of these programs CAUSES PERMENANT MENTAL ILLNESS,or aggrivates (exploits)a simple existing emotional problem into PERMENANT MENTAL ILLNESS.Bring your head over here and I will demonstrate HOW you can receive PERMENANT BRAIN DAMAGE because of your involvment with the programs(especially if you are a 7stepper,Asshole).
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Of course it did. that is why I said "in absense of mental illness"
Your reading comprehension is way down Im afraid there gilligan.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-05-28 20:27 ]
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On 2004-05-28 20:11:00, GregLeclaire wrote:
"Did it ever occour to you that MAYBE the experience of being a victim of these programs CAUSES PERMENANT MENTAL ILLNESS,or aggrivates (exploits)a simple existing emotional problem into PERMENANT MENTAL ILLNESS.Bring your head over here and I will demonstrate HOW you can receive PERMENANT BRAIN DAMAGE because of your involvment with the programs(especially if you are a 7stepper,Asshole). "
That's the kind of tragic circumstances that follow trauma and abuse. Doesn?t matter if you were in Straight, grew up with abusive parents, were raped, kidnapped, assaulted, battered for years in an abusive relationship, or a POW. Trauma is trauma, and will take its psychological toll. Even though PTSD is debilitating, it's treatable. With time, and therapy, it can be put into perspective and overcome. The only mental illnesses that are beyond help, are the ones that are left untreated.
So what do you do? You pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and go on. Deal with it by getting the help you need, and the understanding of it that helps you grow past its crippling qualities. All is not hopeless, and you are not helpless. After all, it's not like we live in Iraq.
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Thats not necc true...Sure all mental illness is "Treatable" ...but it never gets cured..
Sure you can take someone and put them through therapy...and they can learn to act like a normal mentally functional person..
But I think if you feel like after some therapy you are all better, then either you arent mentally ill or are fooling yourself.
I can act normal too...
But when you get to know me its apparant that Im far from it..
But I was born that way...inherited. Straight just made it a little worse..
Then again I lump Straight in with my whole adolescents which was actually Straight and a string of other places.
Straight was a damaging place, but I think Im kind of over that..I have found some other things in my life to be much more challenging..
Straight didnt cause the black cloud, I was born with it, and can trace it at least 2 generations back in my family..
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"A young man left Straight, went to authorities and reported being beaten at the St. Petersburg warehouse. He hasn't been seen or heard from since."[ This Message was edited by: Triumvirate on 2004-05-28 22:35 ]
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test
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Maybe mental illness hinders my reading skill,Asshole.