Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Antigen on April 10, 2004, 03:01:00 PM
-
This is from another thread. Thought I'd start a new one, since this part of the discussion is veering far astray of the original topic.
Anon
Would you disagree that your experience in Straight inc colors your point of view?
I would say that it has given me significant insight.
I've been trying to think of an analogy that might fit. I think its kinda like this: Say you have been bitten by a Chow Chow.
...
There are a lot of dangerous programs. A lot of people here have found this out first hand. Even if you know there are some good programs; your going to tend to view them all as dangerous; And especially so, as its so hard to tell from the outside which is which.
Funny you should use that particular analogy. I was attacked by a big dog when I was about 7. Fortunately, he remembered enough of his K-9 training to just pin me down and not rip out my throat. I was only injured a little. I took from that experience the wisdom to pay close attention to what a dog is trying to tell you; whether he wants to be petted or not, if he likes you or not and just what kind of mood he's in. I love dogs. I'm one of those people who can walk up and pet most dogs, even if they usually bite strangers on sight. The trick is in ignoring what the owner says--they're always biased and often a little blind to their belove dog's less appealing personality traits--and just pay close attention to how the dog is acting.
Same holds true for programs.
If you are really so concerned for the siblings, then you should be able to set your own ego aside and let the boy enjoy a visit with his sister separate and apart from you.
All due respect, Karen, but I wouldn't send my 19yo down to ALA w/o a competent and matuer witness to protect her interests. I think you people are quite duplistic.
First you say that ALA is not a lock down facility and that students can and do simply walk away every day, then we find out from Craig's description of an escape that that's not the case at all. So your assurance that it's safe to send a 14yo boy unattended into your facility in in MX is less than reassuring.
Mind you, I don't think you're intentionally lying. What I think is that you are able to hold two contradictory perceptions at the same time w/o a lot of congnative dissonance.
What I asked was, can you do that? Your answer is no. So, as far as I'm concerned, you have proven yourself more interested in stirring up turmoil and strife, than in the welfare of the two kids. I am coming to feel you have no genuine concern for Amanda; but rather are enjoying the opportunity to cause trouble for this family.
Really? Cause I take from that same exchange that Paige is prescient and responsible enough to not send her son unprotected to a place that has already got his sister held incommunicado and apparently against her will (or she wouldn't have tried to run away, now would she?)
As for God having her email address; oh yes, I'm sure He does. He knows how many hairs are on her head and the deepest secrets of her heart. He may well be trying to tell her something - but will she listen?
Or maybe God is trying to tell you something. Will you listen?
That's the trouble w/ trying to decide for others what God wants for them. In this case, it's just a major bummer and possibly a bit of emotional and psyche damage. But kids are resilliant and this one apparently has great family support. But, in some cases, this kind of thinking results in lobbing bomb laiden virgins at strangers. It's really not much of a stretch from here to there.
Would you mind, please, explaining why ALA and other similar programs even have campuses in MX, Jamaica, Costa Rica and such places? Isn't it expensive to keep flying and calling internationally? Aside from the differences in laws and enforcement standards, what is the benefit to sending kids to Mexico?
At Amanda's age, I lost my brother who was her brothers age. That was a very long time ago, and I still miss him. He would have been 42 this week if he hadn't been killed. I often wonder how different my life might be, had he not died; What kind of wife might he have married; would I have nieces and nephews? Would we still be close, or seeing each other once a year? Any way, For this reason, I think I am more sensitive to sibling issues than average; and the present situation does distress me.
I'm sorry to hear that, but it's not the same situation at all. Your brother died. No one had the power to bring him back to you. Amanda's brother is very much alive and so is the rest of the extended family. It's not God keeping them appart. It's ALA.
"Karen, Karen, Karen! Are you trolling for a new intake? I may be mistaken, but I think this one's just a little to smart for that schtick."
No Ginger - hadn't entered my mind. I am frankly surprised you would so accuse me.
I just asked, that's all. Experience tells me that this is a definite possability and it would be foolish NOT to suspect this as a possible motive.
Just out of curiosity, how frequently does ALA enroll siblings from the same families?
To make certain that crime does not pay, the government should take it
over and try to run it
--G. Norman Collie
-
On 2004-04-10 12:01:00, Antigen wrote:
Amanda's brother is very much alive and so is the rest of the extended family. It's not God keeping them appart. It's ALA.
No Ginger, it is not ALA keeping them apart. It is the unwise choices of the girl that landed her there in the first place. It is her continued unwise choices that make it necessary for her to stay there. Ginger, you have not been there. You have not seen with your own eyes. You have not spoken to the staff face to face. You have not witnessed the girls interaction one with another. They are in a safe place. They are well cared for. The home they are living in is beautiful. Your personal life experiences with your daughter are not the same as the experiences for this girl and for her mother.
While it is unfortunate that this girl is down there, it is more unfortunate that there are so many people who find it necessary to condemn the parents. Just as you did what you felt was best with your daughter, they are doing what they feel is best for their daughter.
Fortunately, however, they are accountable to God. Not to you. Not to Paige. Not to any of the others who have jumped on the bandwagon. God sees all and will righteously judge accordingly. Have a blessed day Ginger.
-
It's real easy to say they're only accountable to God. No one actually speaks to God to be able to dispute what you say. How do YOU know what God wants for them. Maybe God wants Paige to step in and do something.
Maybe Ginger and I haven't had experience with that particular child, but we've both raised multiple children so that does give us some perspective that you and others do not have. We've been there as teens AND as parents. I've said plenty of times on here before that I went through hell with my oldest and drugs. She scared the shit out of me on a daily basis. BUT......because of what I went through I knew that sending her away was not the answer. Even if the place is not physically abusive. The psychological damage is what's worse to me anyway. Part of what still affects me to this day is that after being in that program ANY mistake that I made was a complete and total crisis. It takes away the ability of the child to make mistakes and truly[/b] learn from them. To force[/b] change on someone, especially a child, doesn't work anyway. You're forcing your[/b] will on them. Oh, that's right.....most of you people have a direct line to God and know that what YOU want for her is HIS will. :roll: :roll:
Most people, when confronted with the natural consequences of their actions, change the behaviors that are causing them problems. Some people take longer than others to figure things out. A small percentage never do...it's sad, but a fact. If you take away the ability of the child to experience those natural consequences, how do you expect them to learn? By sitting in a building all day talking about how bad their lives were and how the Almighty can change them?? No, it's called life experience. Everyone deserves a chance at that....even if it gets frightening for the parents. ONe of the hardest things I had to do was to let go of my daughter when she was going through her difficulties. I wanted so badly to change her. I knew where she was heading was a very bad place, but I also knew that if I forced[/b] her to change before she had learned whatever it was that she was supposed to that she would end up spending much more time than necessary to learn those lessons. Yes, there was a chance that she wouldn't pull herself out of it, but in my opinion, much more of a chance that she'd crash and burn at a later date if I had sent her somewhere and interrupted the learning process.Keep close to Nature's heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean.
-- John Muir
-
Hmmmm, sounds to me the only one who has been condemmed is the child, who because she is not meeting her parents demands and expectations, must now have an extended "come to Jesus meetin"
south of the border.
:silly:
-
Ginger, maybe you should rename this topic with a bit more info on what it is about. Just a thought.
-
//All due respect, Karen, but I wouldn't send my 19yo down to ALA w/o a competent and matuer witness to protect her interests//
OK, I agree. I wouldn't either. I had no such thing in mind. Remember, I'm only sort of tossing ideas and possibilities around - like a think session if you will. My thoughts being *maybe* there is a neutral family member or trusted family friend the boy could travel with. I think I did mention a neutral third party. .
//I would say that it has given me significant insight. //
Yes, I agree with this too. It has. Your insight is at times remarkable; But this doesn't mean you are never mistaken in your judgment.
//First you say that ALA is not a lock down facility and that students can and do simply walk away every day, then we find out from Craig's description of an escape that that's not the case at all. So your assurance that it's safe to send a 14yo boy unattended into your facility in in MX is less than reassuring. //
Now I never said anything about every day. I can only recall two run away events in the past year. I haven't responded to your questios about the search party and all related, b/c I am not there and so can only guess. I am under the impression my speculating wouldn't satisfy. But I will if you like. . .Let me know.
And again, about the boy - I never said or ment he should travel alone.
//(or she wouldn't have tried to run away, now would she?) //
She might. Lots of kids run away for the 'fun' thats in it intending on returning when it suites them. I'm not saying this IS the case with Amanda as I don't know. It is possible tho.
//Or maybe God is trying to tell you something. Will you listen? //
I do try Ginger. I often wish He'd speak up a bit louder as I do sometimes misunderstand Him; But maybe if He did, it would remove the all important aspect of free will. How 'bout you?
//That's the trouble w/ trying to decide for others what God wants for them. //
Sure, I agree. I will sometimes point out that maybe this circumstance ot that event might be God trying to get threw; but I don't tell people "God's will for you is. . ."
That would be a very dangerous thing to do and smacks of false prophecy.
I do advise those interested to seek God's will; for I do believe the center of God's will is the only safe place to be. True, we all waver out of it from time to time, as we stagger threw life. It is to our benefit and well being if we get back in it ASAP soon as we discover our mistake.
I assume Amanda's parents feel they are following God's direction; and I would not second guess them. If they've made a mistake, I trust God will somehow let them know.
Speaking of Trusting God - let me recommend a book for anyone interested in the subject: "Trusting God". Its a humorous story about a Political science professor learning to walk by Faith. He left a well paying job to found Lamb and Lion Ministries; on April fools day; which he was told was most appropriate by may people. It is a funny book but more than any other I've read, illistraights the principles of Trust and Faith in God.
//Would you mind, please, explaining why ALA and other similar programs even have campuses in MX, Jamaica, Costa Rica and such places? Isn't it expensive to keep flying and calling internationally? Aside from the differences in laws and enforcement standards, what is the benefit to sending kids to Mexico? //
I do a little doubt I'm the best one to try and explain this Ginger. I can give you my impression, but thats all it is.
What makes me uncomfortable with this situation is that I feel often times it is for no more reason than the lack of oversight and supervision and ease with which the local officials can be bought; as well as the protection that can be gained from a community with a depressed economy when your putting green back into it. All this makes me very warry now that I understand it.
This having been said; I do think there can be good and legitimate reasons for a program in a forgine local. I do think it can be very good for people to spend time in a very different place from their personal norm. It can be socially enriching and personally gratifying in many ways. It does enable people to set aside the distractions of everyday life and actually think about what they want and how to get it. Nathan really enjoyed it; but for him, Utah was quite different enough to have these same benefits. He was enthralled (and so was I when we visited) And he loved Ajijic.
As you know, I had first sent him to Dundee. And you know how that turned out. But I don't see the local in this case as one of the problems. That Program is the same where ever it is; and had he been in North Carolina it would've been the same. I think in the case of Dundee, the Local was actually plus for several reasons - so its not as if a forgine local, in and of itself, is a bad thing in my view.
I think one way to gage weather or not the program is a forgine local for good rather than bad reasons, might be how often and how soon can the students actually get out and experience the place?
So, thats my take on it.
//I'm sorry to hear that, but it's not the same situation at all. //
Oh, I know! I didn't mean to be comparing the two situations - only trying to express why I personally am sensitive to sibling issues.
//It's not God keeping them appart. It's ALA.//
I agree it isn't God, Ginger; but I don't think it is ALA either. I would say its more the family rift that is causing this; and I fear Paige's response is only aggravating the situation. This is how I have come to see it.
IMO, even *if* everything Paige says is true; her response is only going to make the situation worse. I hope I'm wrong.
//Just out of curiosity, how frequently does ALA enroll siblings from the same families? //
As far as I know, never. I can't think of a single instance. But Ginger, if there were siblings enrolled together, it would automatically be a bad thing.
I think that's everything. I need to go cook.
I hope ya'll have a nice Easter, weather or not you are celebrating magic bunnies or a risen savior.
God's Peace -
KZ
-
I usually ignore my typos, but thought I ought to correct this one -
As far as I know, never. I can't think of a single instance. But Ginger, if there were siblings enrolled together, it wouldN'T automatically be a bad thing.
Also, you asked about cost. The phone calls aren't so bad. I have good rates and even tho I called MX a lot, my bill was never overly high - maybe in the thirty dollar range. I think most families buy the prepaid cards.
Flights were a different story. For us it is pretty expensive - but it wouldn't be nearly so bad if you live west of the Mississippi; and this is a relitive thing anyway. Expensive for me is pockect change for others.
Cayo - you have brought the need for natural consequences - I'd like to get into that later.
-
Oh for pete's sake Karen. There is a HUGE difference between exposing kids to a different culture vis a vis an educational/enrichment type program that accepts kids only on a voluntary basis and treats them like "students" not damaged or defective people.
Second, for the money parents spend on locking their kids up in some foreigh-based behavior modification program, the ENTIRE family could take an extended vacation in South or Central America, the Carribean, Europe, etc.
Separating a child from their family under the guise of helping families heal is utter and complete poppycock.
I have zero respect for parents who ship their kids off to some outpost because they have lost control of their child's attitude and behavior.
What a disgrace.
:roll:
-
On 2004-04-11 07:46:00, cayohueso wrote:
Maybe Ginger and I haven't had experience with that particular child, but we've both raised multiple children so that does give us some perspective that you and others do not have. We've been there as teens AND as parents. I've said plenty of times on here before that I went through hell with my oldest and drugs. She scared the shit out of me on a daily basis. BUT......because of what I went through I knew that sending her away was not the answer.
Congratulations! You were able to deal with your wayward teens in a manner that worked for you. However, the girl is not your child and the mom is not you. What you did in your situation was for you and your child.
Different people deal with things differently. People have a tendancy to judge others by themselves. As such, it is hard to accept when other parents do things that for us would be, well, in our own judgement, just wrong.
However, not being able to know the heart of the parent, and not having walked in her shoes, we cannot possibly know what life has been like in their home.
Again, congratulations on your abililty to deal with your wayward teen in a manner that worked for you. I am sure you have become stronger for it, and as such, when you do run across a situation like yours, you will have the experience to help another parent.
Have a blessed day.
-
On 2004-04-11 10:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
Separating a child from their family under the guise of helping families heal is utter and complete poppycock.
I have zero respect for parents who ship their kids off to some outpost because they have lost control of their child's attitude and behavior.
What a disgrace.
Fortunately, God is the judge of hurting parents who feel desparate, not you.
-
Karen wrote this: I assume Amanda's parents feel they are following God's direction; and I would not second guess them. If they've made a mistake, I trust God will somehow let them know.
Anon writes this: Maybe God has, by sending Paige.
-
On 2004-04-11 10:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh for pete's sake Karen. There is a HUGE difference between exposing kids to a different culture vis a vis an educational/enrichment type program that accepts kids only on a voluntary basis and treats them like "students" not damaged or defective people.
Second, for the money parents spend on locking their kids up in some foreigh-based behavior modification program, the ENTIRE family could take an extended vacation in South or Central America, the Carribean, Europe, etc.
Separating a child from their family under the guise of helping families heal is utter and complete poppycock.
I have zero respect for parents who ship their kids off to some outpost because they have lost control of their child's attitude and behavior.
What a disgrace.
::bigsmilebounce:: ::birthday:: ::drummer:: ::rocker::
-
I have zero respect for parents who ship their kids off to some outpost because they have lost control of their child's attitude and behavior.
What a disgrace.
:roll:
"
With sadness (because I like Karen), I realize that she must be included in the "zero respect" category also. Not only did she try two, as in "the first one [Dundee] didn't work out, so I'll try this other one which must be good because all they talk about is God", but she now recruits for this program and hopes her son, Nate, will someday grow to run a program of his own.
What happened to parenting, and loving your child while trying your best to help him... without the stigma of being "second-class goods", to be shipped off to others because his own family perceives him as around the bend, completely unmangeable [read "won't agree with MY take on life"] beyond help by those who should love him?
-
With sadness (because I like Karen), I realize that she must be included in the "zero respect" category also. Not only did she try two, as in "the first one [Dundee] didn't work out, so I'll try this other one which must be good because all they talk about is God", but she now recruits for this program and hopes her son, Nate, will someday grow to run a program of his own.
Really??? How sad!!Don't sweat the
- Petty Things
Don't pet the
- Sweaty Things
Water what you want to grow.
--Curiosity
-
Let there be no mistake about it, straightening out wayward teens according to the gospel, is behavior modification.
Should teens have the right to decide for themselves if they want to be "born again" (bold)before being committed by their parents into a faith-based school or program? Absolutely. It's called freedom of religion.
Guess you know what I think of parents who shove christianity down the throats of their children all the while proclaiming what "good, responsible parents" they are.
::puke::
-
Hi Spots!
Thank you for the kudos and cheer up - I never said that! That was some anon taking a jab at me.
I don't recruit; never have; and I don't expect Nate to grown up an be a program director!
Altho, I hope he does pick a career that will enable him to work with kids, as I think he'd be very good. He has said he'd like to teach, and I hope he will. He's got the perfect personality for it; soon as he develops a little more maturity; which he will. He's still a kid.
As for my poor decisions; yes, I goofed up; but it has worked out well anyway (Thank You Lord)and I do think there are good programs that help kids get threw some tuff times.
I don't expect to change any minds here; I'm not trying to; but I do think I have a point of view as deserving of expression as anyone's.
I take my punches for being in the minority with out to much complaint :wink:
Hope your well. I have a little news that might be of interest if you'd care to write.
God's Peace -
KZ
-
An anon points out:
"Maybe God has, by sending Paige."
Maybe. . .
That is the beauty behind the petition; Thy will be done.
We may think we know and be very sure, and be very wrong.
This is why we are supposed to ask God's will be done.
-
"Should teens have the right to decide for themselves if they want to be "born again" (bold)before being committed by their parents into a faith-based school or program? Absolutely. It's called freedom of religion. "
Puking anon; these kids are Christian kids. They haven't abandoned their faith Just b/c they are having problems in their life.
No doubt many are at a point where they have questions and doubts; as this is a normal as breathing during the teen age years. Most can and will find answers to their doubts and remain Christian. Those who dicide they want to abandon their Faith can and will weather or not they attend a Christan School. The freedom to believe it or not, is always there, no matter where they are.
But can you not see how it might figure that a Christan kid with a drug problem might find more help in a program were their Faith plays a role?
I, personally,have never seen any one overcome a drug problem apart from God. God is in the bussiness of change for the better; and so it makes sence to me - beliving as I do - that Jesus saves - that a good Christian program is very worthwhile for the Christian kid having problems.
-
On 2004-04-11 07:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
No Ginger, it is not ALA keeping them apart. It is the unwise choices of the girl that landed her there in the first place. It is her continued unwise choices that make it necessary for her to stay there.
Last I heard on the topic of this girls' choices (that you deem to be unwise) was that she tried to run away from the place and ALA sent out a search team to prevent her. That's straight from Craig in a prayer request, unless you think someone else wrote that and signed his name. Do you think someone else wrote that prayer request and just signed his name to it?
Ginger, you have not been there. You have not seen with your own eyes. You have not spoken to the staff face to face. You have not witnessed the girls interaction one with another.
No kidding! Neither has her brother, her brother's mom, their grandparents or great grandparents. They can't even talk to her on the phone. That's what we're talking about, remember???
Repeating your mantra about how safe and well these kids are isn't doing anything for me. You may believe it, but I don't. What I know is that the girl acted on an apparently pretty strong intention to get away from the paradise you describe.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.
--Thomas Jefferson
-
On 2004-04-11 09:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
I haven't responded to your questios about the search party and all related, b/c I am not there and so can only guess.
...
God's Peace -
KZ
"
Now, unless your going to claim that someone else forged this (and I don't think you would), can you please dispense with all the talking asif you know something?
You're not there. You don't know how the search parties are composed or how they function. You don't know if they're violent. You don't know if the kids get enough sleep, far less if they get any mental rest or privacy at all. You don't know these things so you can't say. So please quit pretending that you do, ok?
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.
-- Anonymous
-
On 2004-04-11 12:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
Fortunately, God is the judge of hurting parents who feel desparate, not you."
He's also the judge of people who excerbate and take advantage of desperation for power and money. So I'd be careful tossing that one about. Won't you be red in the face if, upon Judgement Day, that one comes back on you!
That which does not kill you can make you stronger, but I really never needed to be this strong.
Scott Wagner
-
I haven't responded to your questios about the search party and all related, b/c I am not there and so can only guess.
...
God's Peace -
KZ
"
Now, unless your going to claim that someone else forged this (and I don't think you would), can you please dispense with all the talking asif you know something?
Amen Sister! Problem is Karen just doesn't get it.
-
Ginger, is KZ the same as Karen Burnett, Family Coordinator for ALA???
The writing styles are very different - one can spell. The verbage used is also very different.
If they are the same person I wonder why the styles are so different.
-
On 2004-04-11 17:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
"Should teens have the right to decide for themselves if they want to be "born again" (bold)before being committed by their parents into a faith-based school or program? Absolutely. It's called freedom of religion. "
Puking anon; these kids are Christian kids. They haven't abandoned their faith Just b/c they are having problems in their life.
No doubt many are at a point where they have questions and doubts; as this is a normal as breathing during the teen age years. Most can and will find answers to their doubts and remain Christian. Those who dicide they want to abandon their Faith can and will weather or not they attend a Christan School. The freedom to believe it or not, is always there, no matter where they are.
But can you not see how it might figure that a Christan kid with a drug problem might find more help in a program were their Faith plays a role?
I, personally,have never seen any one overcome a drug problem apart from God. God is in the bussiness of change for the better; and so it makes sence to me - beliving as I do - that Jesus saves - that a good Christian program is very worthwhile for the Christian kid having problems."
Karen, I don't care how many times you stand on your soapbox preaching (selling)"faith-based" schools as the way to salvation for "good kids who are making bad choices", it's still hogwash.
Have a blessed day spreading your gospel of ignorance and denial.
:wave:
-
Karen Z Burnett must be in HEAVEN right now. She's been aching to talk God and religion for a long time now and now she has her soapbox! I remember when she was slamming Mormons on this board and others, but it went no where. Nowshe has several threads to choose from.
Her own thread on ALA produced little to ZERO takers. What's up with that???
-
On 2004-04-11 18:41:00, Paige wrote:
"Ginger, is KZ the same as Karen Burnett, Family Coordinator for ALA???
The writing styles are very different - one can spell. The verbage used is also very different.
If they are the same person I wonder why the styles are so different."
I can't say for sure, but I assume so because the same person who sometimes signs KZ also sometimes says they're Karen Burnett. But I can't really be 100% sure w/o compelling the ISP to fork over customer info. And I don't have a reason or intention to do that.
For something that has spread with all the forethought of kudzu, the Internet isn't half bad."
-- Newsweek, 2/27/95
-
On 2004-04-11 18:16:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2004-04-11 12:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
Fortunately, God is the judge of hurting parents who feel desparate, not you."
He's also the judge of people who excerbate and take advantage of desperation for power and money. So I'd be careful tossing that one about. Won't you be red in the face if, upon Judgement Day, that one comes back on you!
I agree! I am not aware of anyone taking adavantage for power or money in this situation.
-
Paige - yes its me.
I don't think my writtng style is different; the spelling may degrade at times, but the style remains the same. At least any difference isn't apparent to me, the author.
Ginger, there are some things I do know, even tho I'm not there. I didn't go into the searchers b/c you want details I can't provide - but in general, I have a pretty good notion of how this is as well.
I frequently talk with parents who have been there; and the parent visits often consist of spending the day in the house with their son or daughter; So, I do hear what the days are like and how the kids are doing from first hand accounts.
However, if you'd really rather I shut up and cease commenting, I will; but don't then hurl an accuasation of evasion at me; and don't ask me questions you don't want my input on.
-
Ginger, there are some things I do know, even tho I'm not there. I didn't go into the searchers b/c you want details I can't provide - but in general, I have a pretty good notion of how this is as well.
I frequently talk with parents who have been there; and the parent visits often consist of spending the day in the house with their son or daughter; So, I do hear what the days are like and how the kids are doing from first hand accounts.
Karen I have some ocean front property in Arizona, would you be interested in buying it?
Have you not heard great things about "other prgrams" in which parents who visited shared. How did that turn out for you? Why are you so convinced this one is different,given you are admitting you don't know?
-
Have you not heard great things about "other prgrams" in which parents who visited shared. How did that turn out for you? Why are you so convinced this one is different,given you are admitting you don't know?"
[/quote]
I understand where your comimg from and was expecting the comment.
It is different.
In the other program, it is a planned and coordnated event; taking place for a spicific reason assocated with the program.
Even when it is a situation where a parent wants to visit and look around; it is as we say a dog and pony show. They only have contact with upper levels and in no way take part in the daily attivities. If the kid is in the program and on a lower level, they can't even actually visit with them. We've all seen accounts of the Mom or Dad viewing the teen threw a window. . .
At ALA, the family are in contact and comunication with their child, and the other kids as well. Its a home type situation. The visitors are allowed to sit in on activities and talk to who ever is around. Its like having company. And while indivigual families plan their visits; they can plan them anytime; as opposed to the gathering that takes place in some programs for seminairs and such.
Its a very different situation; and one that is far more likely to give a parent a true picture of how things are.
-
//Karen I have some ocean front property in Arizona, would you be interested in buying it? //
How much ya want for it?
I just might.
People sometime do very well playing futures.
-
On 2004-04-12 08:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
Ginger, there are some things I do know, even tho I'm not there. I didn't go into the searchers b/c you want details I can't provide - but in general, I have a pretty good notion of how this is as well.
Karen, the way you were describing the place just about a week ago, they would never have need of anything like a search party. Apparently, you either didn't know or just neglected to mention that aspect of the Program while you were reassuring us all that "ALA is not a lock-down facility." Intentionally or not, you gave misleading information.
That's my concern w/ ALA. Not that all of the parents and staff are intentionally abusing children then intentionally covering up. That's not what happened at The Seed or Straight either. What happened then and what I fear is happening w/ ALA (among many other facilities) is that the people running the show are deluding themselves. They believe completely that what they're doing is good and right.
But what if you're wrong? What if you're just as wrong as the doctors who bled George Washington to death in an attempt to cure him of "bad blood".
Emotions rule the world; Is it any wonder that it's so mucked up?!
Bill Warbis
-
On 2004-04-11 17:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Let there be no mistake about it, straightening out wayward teens according to the gospel, is behavior modification.
Should teens have the right to decide for themselves if they want to be "born again" (bold)before being committed by their parents into a faith-based school or program? Absolutely. It's called freedom of religion.
Guess you know what I think of parents who shove christianity down the throats of their children all the while proclaiming what "good, responsible parents" they are.
"
Proverbs 15:12
-
Remember David Van Blarigan, the 16 year old boy who was taken by escorts to a behavior modification program in the Caribbean back in 1998? Well, as I recall this was a teenager who had no criminal history and did not use drugs. However, he reportedly did call his younger brother a "butthead", squirted his mom with a garden hose and refused to go to church, all of which apparently so "concerned" his christian fundamentalist parents that they felt he was in need of long term placement in a behavior modification program.
Are ya getting it, yet Karen? Non-violent, drug free kids are just as likely to end up in a program as kids who smoke dope, have sex and steal their parents S.U.V. Locked or unlocked, it makes no difference, nobody gets out until they learn to love the program (or JESUS).
Just my opinion, but please, feel free to bring on the God Squad.
:roll:
Source: TIME Magazine, "Is This A Camp or Jail?
February, 1998
-
On 2004-04-12 08:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Paige - yes its me.
I don't think my writtng style is different; the spelling may degrade at times, but the style remains the same. At least any difference isn't apparent to me, the author.
Ginger, there are some things I do know, even tho I'm not there. I didn't go into the searchers b/c you want details I can't provide - but in general, I have a pretty good notion of how this is as well.
I frequently talk with parents who have been there; and the parent visits often consist of spending the day in the house with their son or daughter; So, I do hear what the days are like and how the kids are doing from first hand accounts.
However, if you'd really rather I shut up and cease commenting, I will; but don't then hurl an accuasation of evasion at me; and don't ask me questions you don't want my input on. "
Karen, thanks for clearing up the identity thing.
One of the anons was very right on stating that the problem here is that her brother cannot communicate with her. This is true. There are other issues that will be addressed in court and have nothing to do with ALA. We were offered a round about way through one of the grndparents for J to email her. We have sent 2 emails and do not know if they were received or not. I don't see this as a good compromise. There has been plenty of time for her to email back it has been days. So, No, I don't see this as a way for J to communicate with her and it appears to just be another control tactic over the 2 kids. Again I will repeat that I do not need to communicate with her but her brother does. The judge "ain't" happy about this and asked about this place and why she could not talk to her brother? The answer was very simple. Her parents will not allow it and the facility sees it as a privilege that she has not earned yet. We shall go from here.
Hey, sorry about the spelling slur didn't mean any offense.
-
I have an identity question. I thought I read somewhere back that Kaydee is Karen. I don't really care, just curious. Anyone?
-
From Ginger:
Karen, the way you were describing the place just about a week ago, they would never have need of anything like a search party. Apparently, you either didn't know or just neglected to mention that aspect of the Program while you were reassuring us all that "ALA is not a lock-down facility." Intentionally or not, you gave misleading information.
You are not being exactly fair. I mean consider the format here - I'm not trying to write a difinitive artical on ALA. Even if I wanted to, this wouldn't be the place for it. I mean, how would you like that - if I wrote out pages and pages trying to give every jot and dot of info I felt anyone might at some point wonder about?
They are not locked down the way some are. This is worth knowing. Some kids need a lock down for their safty. Others don't. If they don't need it, its better to avoid it, as Lock downs, even good ones, are by nature much more strict and controlling.
Not being lock down dosen't mean kids won't occassionaly take off. And BTW, you have a time or two exagerated how often kids have pulled a run away. Its not "all the time" or "constintly" as you have said I've said. I never said anything like that. I said it can and has happened. As far as I know - twice in the year its been open in Ajijic.
The idea of a search squad has really got your feathers ruffeled; and if your picturing in your mind a goon squad as you've stated, I can see why.
I am quite sure the search squad was a couple members of staff looking around town. Exactly which staff, I don't know. Did they knock on the neighbors doors and request their garden be checked for a couple gringo girls ; or did they just walk around the market? I don't know - butI am sure no body brought out the bloodhounds or called in the night hawks.
Let me ask again - would it really be better to do nothing? I don't think so.
Even tho it is a safe community and there really isn't much in the way of trouble for the girls to find - everyone is still very worried and wants them back safe and sound asap.
You seem troubled by he going over the wall while everyone was distracted by the car werck - It just seems like a couple girls grabing life by the tail, so to speak, and taking off b/c it seemed like a good idea at the moment. Poor impulse controll, and all that. I mean, its not like they had planned it - they just took advantage of the oppratunity to be goofy; have an adventure.
As to you concern and question: What if your wrong?
Let me be Jewish for a moment and ask you; what if they/we are? What do you think will be the consequence? Keeping in mind, this IS Not Straight Inc or anything like it.
Do you honestly think ALA can do more harm than the behavior that was interupted by placement?
-
This is KZ. I am not KayDee.
-
//Hey, sorry about the spelling slur didn't mean any offense.//
Oh I am SO used to it :wink:
-
On 2004-04-12 15:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
Do you honestly think ALA can do more harm than the behavior that was interupted by placement?
Karen, I honestly do believe it's possible. The biggest trouble here is the basic niche that these Programs fill. When kids reach a certain age and level of maturity, we can't just pick them up, kicking and screaming to prevent them from, say, running out in traffic. If an adult or nearly grown child acts in such a way as to require involuntary confinement, we have legal processes and medical standards by which we ensure that the person actually does need intervention against their will and that the intervention being used is the least restrictive available to ensure that person's safety or the safety of others.
It's my understanding that ALA admission requirements consist of a contract signed by a guardian and check that didn't bounce. Do I misunderstand that somehow? Is there some kind of diagnostic proceedure and review process? What is the appeal process for those kids who disagree w/ their parents' assesment?
Without some kind of external check, I fear that ALA could, indeed, be doing more harm than whatever it is the parents are trying to prevent the kids from doing.
Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution, the time will come when medicine will organize an undercover dictatorship. To restrict the art of healing to one class of men, and deny equal privilege to others, will be to constitute the Bastille of medical science. All such laws are un-American and despotic, and have no place in a Republic. The Constitution of this Republic should make special privilege for medical freedom as well as religious freedom.
--Abridged quote-Benjamin Rush, M.D., a signer of the Declaration of Independence
-
On 2004-04-12 15:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
Do you honestly think ALA can do more harm than the behavior that was interupted by placement?
"
In some cases a resounding - YES.
-
On 2004-04-12 14:49:00, Paige wrote:
"
On 2004-04-12 08:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Paige - yes its me.
I don't think my writtng style is different; the spelling may degrade at times, but the style remains the same. At least any difference isn't apparent to me, the author.
Ginger, there are some things I do know, even tho I'm not there. I didn't go into the searchers b/c you want details I can't provide - but in general, I have a pretty good notion of how this is as well.
I frequently talk with parents who have been there; and the parent visits often consist of spending the day in the house with their son or daughter; So, I do hear what the days are like and how the kids are doing from first hand accounts.
However, if you'd really rather I shut up and cease commenting, I will; but don't then hurl an accuasation of evasion at me; and don't ask me questions you don't want my input on. "
Karen, thanks for clearing up the identity thing.
One of the anons was very right on stating that the problem here is that her brother cannot communicate with her. This is true. There are other issues that will be addressed in court and have nothing to do with ALA. We were offered a round about way through one of the grndparents for J to email her. We have sent 2 emails and do not know if they were received or not. I don't see this as a good compromise. There has been plenty of time for her to email back it has been days. So, No, I don't see this as a way for J to communicate with her and it appears to just be another control tactic over the 2 kids. Again I will repeat that I do not need to communicate with her but her brother does. The judge "ain't" happy about this and asked about this place and why she could not talk to her brother? The answer was very simple. Her parents will not allow it and the facility sees it as a privilege that she has not earned yet. We shall go from here.
Hey, sorry about the spelling slur didn't mean any offense."
So what is the latest? Last week you said that "next week" you would be filing papers. Well, now is next week. Are you ok? This whole issue is certainly something to be concerned about.
-
Can we stop the bible thumpers flooding now???? :roll:
He that will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; and he who dares not, is a slave.
--William Drummond (1585-1640)