Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Antigen on April 02, 2004, 04:25:00 PM
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FAMILY VISITATION
Our philosophy is, "the more the merrier." We don't practice restrictions on visits between parents and their son in any way; in fact we encourage it! The same philosophy applies to phone calls, letters & packages, and e-mails. The amount of time a family spends with their son is completely up to the parents and the student.
http://www.abundantlifeacademy.com/about.php (http://www.abundantlifeacademy.com/about.php)
Not long ago, I thought Craig mentioned that the kids don't get these "priviledges" right away, but have to earn them. Well, which is it?
The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs.
-- E. Grebenik
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Thank you Ginger for asking.
The family can visit any time they want. There are some limitations on phone use, for purely practical reasons. Its not an earned "priviledge" as with some programs.
Trips into town, movies, things like that, are earned.
It is an open door program.
You once asked what keeps the kids from taking off.
Nothing.
Sometimes they do. Its a risk the parents need to consider; weather their kid might take off.
They have so far come back of their own accord.
They just walk back in the door they walked out of; or call and say come pick me up please.
This is an excelent program for the right kid; and they don't bilk famlies by keeping kids they realize they can't help.
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Are you saying that ALA just "lets" the kids leave? That's putting them in a very dangerous situation, don't you think? These are not responsible thinking kids. They are kids that are in a program for a reason. Freedom to just walk out may not have had any consequences yet, but think about it. Since escorts are sometimes used, that tells me that the kids aren't agreeing to go, otherwise the parents would take them. Quit sugar-coating Karen.
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And what about the kids who arrive by "escort"? It just doesn't make sense to believe that they have to be shanghied from their beds at night, but the next day they're willing participants.
War is God?s way of teaching Americans geography.
--Ambrose Bierce (died 1914)
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I assume staff would intervine apropreatly if they knew the kids where planning to run; but its not a locked down place. They can take off. Again, its a risk factor parents need to consider. But even if they do run, they are in a much safer place than the average American city.
As for the escorts; I am not aware of this being a common thing with ALA students. I only recall one dad mentioning an escort; and on that occassion I was under the impression it was not the kind of situation you think of when you think of escorting; but was more to serve as company and supervision on the trip.
BYW - the town, Ajijic, got a write up in this months AARP magizene.
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????????? :???:
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On 2004-04-02 17:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I assume staff would intervine apropreatly if they knew the kids where planning to run; but its not a locked down place. They can take off. Again, its a risk factor parents need to consider. But even if they do run, they are in a much safer place than the average American city.
As for the escorts; I am not aware of this being a common thing with ALA students. I only recall one dad mentioning an escort; and on that occassion I was under the impression it was not the kind of situation you think of when you think of escorting; but was more to serve as company and supervision on the trip.
BYW - the town, Ajijic, got a write up in this months AARP magizene.
"
Karen, it would be very helpful if you would answer questions based on your understanding of the FACTS, not HEARSAY.
:idea:
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Doing the best I'm able. I know its not good enough; never is.
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On 2004-04-02 19:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Doing the best I'm able. I know its not good enough; never is. "
Well, now you know how it feels to be a "teen" who no matter how hard they try, their parents still think they can do better ... IN A PROGRAM, that is!
:eek:
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No shit! What have you got to lose, anonymous martyr?? Your seat at the Thanksgiving table? Your education? Your beloved dog? Hell no! All you have invested here is whatever stock you might put in the opinions of relatively anonymous strangers
Walk a mile in my shoes!
It takes a thousand voices.Marihuana influences Negroes to look at white people in the eye, step on white men's shadows and look at a white woman twice.
--Hearst newspapers nationwide, 1934
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WHAT DOES Ajijic HAVE TO DO WITH ST GEORGE UTAH?
Does ALA send their "charges" out into St. George and try to convert the mainly Mormon community as their community service activities? :rofl:
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Holy shit! Are these the 12 guys featured in the court/media ring as "The Street Preachers"?
Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right.
--Carl Schurz, German-born U.S. general and U.S. senator
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"WHAT DOES Ajijic HAVE TO DO WITH ST GEORGE UTAH? "
Nothing. No one said it did. This thread isn't about St George Ut.
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Isn't Abundant Life Academy (ALA) in St. George Utah?
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/quote]
Well, now you know how it feels to be a "teen" who no matter how hard they try, their parents still think they can do better ... IN A PROGRAM, that is! [/quote]
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To clarify ... this post was meant to underscore to Karen that teens (just like adults) don't always measure up to the expectations and demands of others, but unfortunately, it is the teen who gets sent away under the guise of "helping" them to do better. It's truly unfair and unjust. Parents should not be allowed to lock their kids up as the answer to controlling or changing unwanted behavior. Nobody does that to parents. In fact they only way parents can lose their liberty is if they are convicted on a crime and sentenced by the justice system to jail.
Ginger, hope that clears things up ..
:smile:
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That's exactly what I meant. Just one of my pet peeves w/ program operators and parents. Notice how tight they are w/ their own privacy and info? You couldn't get away w/ that in group. No, you had to tell all and then some.
A lot of us saw through the scam right from the get go, so some people might wonder why in the world we'd all go along w/ it. It's because the stakes were so high. You have no idea the value of your welcome at the Thanksgiving table till it hangs in the balance. After all I did in an effort to win that gambit and after having lost anyway, it just burns my bunns when program ppl get all indignant about their privacy.
That's what I meant by "Walk a mile in my shoes".What is a committee? A group of the unwilling, picked from the unfit, to do the unnecessary.
-- Richard Harkness, The New York Times, 1960
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
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On 2004-04-03 09:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Isn't Abundant Life Academy (ALA) in St. George Utah?"
Apparently, their Mexican campus is in Ajijic. Is that correct, Karen? Craig? Anyone?
In another thread; one where anon posters are claiming kinship or journalistic interest, another Anon (who may or may not be Karen) says they are starting to understand the "wisdom" of keeping the actual address of their campuses secret. Coincidentally or not, Straight and The Seed did the same thing. Everyone knew where the group building was. That was no secret. But no one was allowed to know where the host homes were. Now there are regulations requiring those addresses in Florida to be reported to CYF and available to the public. But you can bet they fought tooth and nail against that.
In my opinion, the precise reason for keeping the kids' physical location a secret is to prevent friends, family or the media from contacting them and getting their side of the story. We are a one party country. Half of them call themselves Democrats and the other half call themselves Republicans. All the good ideas come from the Libertarians.
--Hugh Downs
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Yes, ALA is in ST. George Utah. They also have a facility in Kanab Utah which according to their website is the second phase of the program the third is in St. George Utah. Again according to the Website the first phase is in Ajijic Mexico where the "students will learn to serve others" and from what I understand they do quite a bit of charity work such as teaching the Spanish children English and they are volunteered by ALA to help build a church. Any other questions about Ajijic?
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What is CYF?
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Florida's child welfare agency. Formerly known as Health and Rehabilitative Services (HRS), now known as the Department of Children, Youth and Families (CYF).
The reorganization took place sometime in the late `80's or early `90's as I recall.
You know you're living in a white trash neighborhood in Florida when you hear your neighbors out in their front yards hollering "I'm gonna call HRS on you, bitch!"
Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.
--Rep. Robert L. Henry, TX December 22, 1914 (quoting Lincoln)
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Again according to the Website the first phase is in Ajijic Mexico where the "students will learn to serve others" and from what I understand they do quite a bit of charity work such as teaching the Spanish children English and they are volunteered by ALA to help build a church.
"First phase" is probably more like to "break them down." Take them out of "their comfortable" environment. Put them in a place where they won't feel safe to discourage them from running away.
Same old story, just a different program.
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There are things you can discribe the same way; and there are the enevitable knee jerk reactions to this; but there are numerious and significant differences.
We've talked about them all before, several times over.
ALA is a program for teens; and if you oppose all programs for all teens under all circumstances; then you'll be in opposition to ALA.
Pretty simple, really.
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On 2004-04-07 11:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"There are things you can discribe the same way; and there are the enevitable knee jerk reactions to this; but there are numerious and significant differences.
We've talked about them all before, several times over.
ALA is a program for teens; and if you oppose all programs for all teens under all circumstances; then you'll be in opposition to ALA.
Pretty simple, really."
No, it is NOT pretty simple, Karen. But then again, you are in "the industry" so everything you say must be weighed against your self-serving interests and agenda. Parents have a choice. They do NOT have to send their kids thousands of miles from home to help them get in touch with Jesus. Jesus is NOT FOR SALE!
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Yer GODDAMN RIGHT HE AIN'T FER SALE!!!! That Creg fella wood have ye beleeve thet he is though... Goddamn that basterd to HELL!!! Don't send them kids anywhere like that. Send 'em to me, and I won't even charge ya to WHIP THE FUKKIN' DRUGS OUT OF 'EM!!! I'll be damned if I'll have any kids doing drugs around ME - I'll git their little asses SRATE!!!
_________________
Honk if you take it up the ass for Jesus!
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OK for the answeres to this subject all you have to do is go to the ALA web site and read the student manual.
Now Craig - nothing against your school or whatever it is. My only concern is for the well being of Amanda and getting her home safe.
It is lengthy but informative and they do have to earn the privilege to talk to their parents unless I read that wrong. Also if you will go to http://www.injesus.com (http://www.injesus.com) then click on "YOUTH" then on the ALA prayer team site. you will see that both Amanda and another girl did leave, they ran from there and were taken back. I will only believe by choice because they had no other choice. Ask amanda if she would stay there or leave if she could - What is your guess???
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So why can't Amanda's brother even send her an email? or know where her exact location is so he won't worry? Makes you question how family oriented this place realy is.
And how many times are you going to go to Mexico to see your child who is there?? Once a week? Once a month? Ever??
In Amanda's case it actually works to her benefit. Trust me the mother is not going to make any great effort to get there. Maybe once. and I will promise you the only time the dad will be there was when he took her there at 4am without telling her where she was being banished to.
But then again that is strictly my opinion and doesn't mean that I am right or that they are wrong. I simply disagree with how this was handled.
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On 2004-04-07 11:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
ALA is a program for teens; and if you oppose all programs for all teens under all circumstances; then you'll be in opposition to ALA.
Pretty simple, really."
Sea Camp and Sea Base are wonderful programs for teens and pre-teens. They're both tough, demanding programs that require careful obedience to all safety directives, sacrifice of most privacy (i.e. dorm living) and physical and intillectual performance. Access to phones is also limited for practical reasons. I loved Sea Camp and my daughter had a blast at Sea Base 20 years later. If I had the money, I'd probably send my other kids there as well.
I don't think ALA is quite like that.
Janis, Jimi, Gery, Timothy... Did you HAVE to get so close to the edge to get a really good view?
-- Anonymous
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The girls took advantage of the distraction and climbed the wall to get into the neighbors yard. Staff followed but have not been able to locate the girls exact whereabouts. It is now 1:00 AM. The girls and staff have been in constant prayer since the time the girls left. Please join us in prayer... 1). The girls safety, and 2). Prompt return. 3). The search team. In Jesus name we pray that the ALA search team will find the girls and they will be returned safe and sound. Also, the girls of Abundant Life Academy are hurting. They feel responsible. Pray that they would keep their eyes focused on Jesus and their faith full.
http://www.injesus.com/Groups/ViewMessa ... UG&UCD=r5n (http://www.injesus.com/Groups/ViewMessage.cfm?MessageId=VA008FYB&GroupID=6A008DUG&UCD=r5n)
Doesn't sound to me asif ALA is the kind of group home setting where kids could just walk away if they wanted to. Sounds to me asif they have to have a distraction of some kind to take advantage of and that staff will try to chase them down. The ALA Search Team? Would that be anything like the 7th Stepper goon squad sent out to capture me when I split Straight?
Who wrote this, anyway?
In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws. But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws.
--Martin Luther King
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
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He signed it Ginger.
So, it was wrong to go look for them?
It would have been more correct to say to hell with them?
And I am certain they weren't hauled back kicking and screaming, as has been insinuated.
I was on the phone with Craig when they came walking back in the door.
And befor anyone asks; all the homes there have walls; in the way most folks here have chain link fence. They have walled gardens. Very pretty.
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But if kids "can and do just walk away" as you guys say, why did these girls have to wait for a distraction? Why couldn't they just announce that they were outa there and walk out? And what, exactly, is the ALA search team? I don't think that's covered in your advertising material. Can you explain a little about that? Who is on the team? How many? How do they operate? What do they do when they find an escapee?
One has to multiply thoughts to the point where there aren't enough
policemen to control them
--Stanislaw Lec
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If the students are not being held against their will, then why not let them leave? Why the need for a search team?
Why is Amanda not being allowed to contact her other family members? It sounds like the school is being used as a means to keep her from her other relatives.
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They keep them from any and all who dare to disagree with their methods. There was a lot of family I wasn't allowed to associate with. It's the same shit. Isolation. It's all part of the mindfuck. If they can isolate the 'client' so that they're only exposure is to 'believers' they can more quickly and easily manipulate the mind. No contact with the outside world, no 'dangerous' family members. I mean really.....what is the purpose in not letting this kid talk to family? What legit purpose could there be????
Men seldom, or rather never for a length of time, and deliberately, rebel against anything that does not deserve rebelling against.
--Thomas Carlyle
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Tis true check out the student manual on the ALA website. It is very interesting. Lengthy but very interesting.
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I forgot something the parents have to also supply of list of "dangerous people" to ALA.
Would you like to place any bets as to if my name is on there or not?
They give me much more credit than I deserve.
The mom told the great Aunt that she knew that Amanda would never love them like she loved her brother and I, and she knew that Amanda would rather be with us, and that is what makes me dangerous. OK then I guess I am public enemy number one because:
I will always love Amanda.
I will always believe in Amanda.
I will always be there for Amanda.
She is a remarkable child and she will always have a place in my heart and in my home. So NO I AM NOT GOING AWAY! And NOBODY CAN SCARE ME AWAY AND IF YOU HAVEN'T FIGURED IT OUT BY NOW I DON'T GET INTIMIDATED EITHER.
So to members of ALA I do apologize if I have given you any problem -that is not my intent. My intent is to know for myself where Amanda is housed. How she is and that her brother and other family can communicate with her at their leisure and visit with her. I hope this will clear up any misgivings.
Best Wishes to you all.
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will always love Amanda.
I will always believe in Amanda.
I will always be there for Amanda.
She is a remarkable child and she will always have a place in my heart and in my home
Taking all this at face value; I now wonder, why didn't you adopt Amanda when you adpoted her brother?
And whats with the 'screaming' and talk of intimadation?
Who do you think you need to scream at; and who here has tried to intimadate you?
Your begining to remind me much of another 'screamer'.
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Hey, go read the student manual on visitation on the ALA website it is a little scary. The kid has to earn the privilege of talking to the parents and another privilege they can earn is having a photo of the parents out in the open. all contact though twith the parents or any one else has to be approved by the director of the facility. This place calls itself a Boarding School. It's not like any one I have ever seen.
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Sorry - not screaming -just want those who don't seem to be able to read the smaller type and understand it, that I'm not giving up on this child.
It was meant more for emphasis than screaming.
I apologize.
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I did ask to adopt her. The family and I consulted with the counselors we had been using to help the kids through all of the trauma they had already been through suggested that due to the dynamics of Amanda acting as her brothers care giver the children had very different and seperate needs. So under the guise that we were all going to be "family" and that the kids would be brother and sister and be able to see each other frequently and they would both be in counseling etc. We all did what we thought was best at that time. It didn't work the way it probably should have and could have. So here we are. Someone spoke earlier of Amanda almost being of age. Yes, she will be 17 soon and when she can determine her own domicile - my door will be open to her so that she can live with her brother as she has wanted for awhile now.
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Yes, she will be 17 soon and when she can determine her own domicile - my door will be open to her so that she can live with her brother as she has wanted for awhile now.
Well good. But Paige, give serious thought to how you will feel when the glow wears off (the 'honmeymoon period') and she becomes less greatful and more difficult. It will happen. Always does.
Are you really sure you can face the storms when they blow?
You had better make sure before you go telling her she'll always have a home with you.
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Jesus Christ on a broken crutch, Karen! What in the world makes you think you know any of these people well enough to make such a sanctimonious statement?
Oh yeah, I forgot, God must have told you all about it.
Just let the girl go home to the family who loves her and you just take your own advice and sit back and pray for them, ok? Just let go and let God, right?
Paige, your neice is a lucky kid. I know, she's had a lot of hard knocks. But anyone is lucky to have real family who will fight for them.
There never was a good war or a bad peace.
--Benjamin Franklin, (1773)
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Once again you have not read or understood anything I am saying....... I am in this for the long haul.
I have known Amanda since she was 7 years old. I know this child. I know her pitfalls. I know her strengths. I know she will be in need of counseling I know she will need lots of help. But what i know more than anything is that she needs to feel that she is loved and a true member of a family. And when she makes mistakes and bad decisions I will be there
to help her get through those times and learn to make better decisions. We have all made mistakes and will make mistakes for the rest of our lives. I will be there for this young woman for the rest of her life no matter how many mistakes she makes and believe me she has not made many and is much wiser than some people think.
With any teenager there are tough times I am willing to stay the course and be there 100% no matter what happens. You also seem to forget that there are 6 family members including members of the parents family who have asked me to please take Amanda. They know the history and they know that this is the right thing to do. Do you think that all of us are wrong?
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Ginger, Thank you for your response
"Jesus Christ on a broken crutch?" Never heard that one. It did give me a chuckle.
Don't be too hard on Karen, She truly believes and will defend to her dying day what she believes and who (human) she believes in as well as her religious fervor.
I feel just as strongly about Amanda as Karen does for her truths. We can't all agree. But thank you it helps to get some positive reinforcement every now and then. I appreciate greatly your concern.
Best Wishes to you.
and to you Karen.
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People need to understand that God is not in the business of fixing troubled teens. That is cult thinking.
:eek:
Literalism (as in Christian Fundamentalist)
" ... encourages a closed, usually (though not necessarily) politically conservative view of the world: one with a stop-time notion of history and a we-and-they approach to people, in which WE are possessed of truth, virtue, and goodness and THEY of falsehood, depravity, and evil. It looks askance at figurative language, which, so long as its symbols and metaphors are vital, can open -- promiscuously in the eyes of the strict literalist --- the world and its imaginative possibilities."
-Vincent Crapanzano
Serving the Word
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Ginger asks:
"Jesus Christ on a broken crutch, Karen! What in the world makes you think you know any of these people well enough to make such a sanctimonious statement? "
I'm sorry Ginger; I don't know what statement of mine your refering to.
However; I believe I have consistaintly pointed out, we, none of us, know these folks well enough to judge. That includes you; as insightful as you are.
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Oh, I think it might have been this:
Well good. But Paige, give serious thought to how you will feel when the glow wears off (the 'honmeymoon period') and she becomes less greatful and more difficult. It will happen. Always does.
Are you really sure you can face the storms when they blow?
You had better make sure before you go telling her she'll always have a home with you.
What about this is sanctimonious?
I only mean to point out the ride might be a lot ruffer than Paige anticapates; in fact experaince tells me it will be; and it will do the girl a lot more harm than good to tell her she has a home 'forever' only to yank the rug out from under her and boot her ass when the going gets ruff.
I do believe ALA can help Amanda with a lot of her worries and concerns. Maybe Paige can as well - that I don't know - and neither do you. But if she encourages her to leave ALA and move in with her; and then when Amanda becomes a problem, in which ever of the very many ways people do; Paige then tells her to get out; she will have done her a huge disservice. IMO. I'm just asking Paige to think about this before stepping up to the plate.
I have had some personal experaince with exactly this senerio, and I know how destructive it can be. Thus my concern and appeal to think about it.
Now - if you ment another statement, you'll need to point it out.
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On 2004-04-10 08:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
Are you really sure you can face the storms when they blow?
You had better make sure before you go telling her she'll always have a home with you...
< it will do the girl a lot more harm than good to tell her she has a home 'forever' only to yank the rug out from under her and boot her ass when the going gets ruff....
then when Amanda becomes a problem, in which ever of the very many ways people do; Paige then tells her to get out; she will have done her a huge disservice.....
Karen, do you mean a bigger disservice than her parents calling her a "Scumbucket" in front of the other children not allowing her to go to school and then shipping her off to Mexico and cutting her off from the rest of the family. Oh yeah did I mention that both the mom and the dad have stated to other family members as well as myself that they do not want her back.
Well, enough on this for today.
If you can broker visitations please let me know. Thanks I do appreciate your concern.
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Paige, Karen's concerns are not for
Amanda. Karen's concerns are for the program.
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Paige, I meant what I said. I wasn't talking about whats in the past (what ever the truth about it may be) but rather the future.
Her future.
She can learn valuable life skills; independent living skills; and reciece vocational training, all of which can go a long way to getting her feet on the path of a happy life, she is content and satisfied with.
I'm Not saying you can't provide this as well; I don't know; I'm just asking you to think it over and make sure you are able to be of more help than harm, before you go making promises you can't or wont keep.
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The girls are in a safe place and well cared for. They are there because of choices they have made. God has given us all a free will to choose to follow Him or to choose to follow the evil onel. Unfortunately, the girls have made choices that are taking them down the path to destruction. Abundant Live Academy is awesome. I know. I have been there. Paige, you are not the mother. It is not your business how the mothers of these girls are dealing with their daughters. The daughters did not end up there because they made good choices. Paige, pray that God's will be done, not Paige's will be done.
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In response to Paige, because you are not the mother of the girl, it really doesn't matter what you think of how it was handled. You have not been in the mother's shoes to know her anguish as to sending her daughter there. And trust me, the mother would be there to visit if she could. As far as the brother sending email, would the email be from the brother or propaganda from you? I am sure that is a deciding factor. What I can tell you is that Abundant Life Academy is a safe, clean, and loving place. I know, because I have been there. The girl would not be there if she had been making appropriate life choices. As far as taking her at 4:00 a.m., desparate situations call for desparate actions. It is evident that the parents love this girl very much, as they are willing to be subjected to the poisonous, unhelpful comments from individuals, such as yourself, who really do not know what they have been through. Pray for God's will to be done with the girl, not Paige's will to be done. God our Father knows what is best, not Paige.
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On 2004-04-10 09:58:00, Karen wrote:
"Paige, I meant what I said. I wasn't talking about whats in the past (what ever the truth about it may be) but rather the future.
Her future.
She can learn valuable life skills; independent living skills; and reciece vocational training, all of which can go a long way to getting her feet on the path of a happy life, she is content and satisfied with.
I'm Not saying you can't provide this as well; I don't know; I'm just asking you to think it over and make sure you are able to be of more help than harm, before you go making promises you can't or wont keep.
"
Karen, I am quite sure you are speaking the truth and mean what you said.
Apparently you do not believe me and that is your perogative.
With living with me and her brother and having access to the rest of her family Amanda will receive valuable life skills, independent living skills, and receive a formal education as well as counseling - all with a life that she is content and happy with now, not in the future but now.
As for promises that I can't or won't keep? - You certainly don't know me.
When I took her brother to live with me(Amanda was living with the great grandparents at that time and they wanted her to stay but could not handle both children. Pa Paw has since died and Ma Maw is now 96 I think. the counselors also suggested the sepearation with the intent and goal of reunification of the siblings) I promised this family, Amanda and her brother that I would give him a loving home for the rest of his life no matter what. I am a single parent and no it has not been easy but I am not going to abandon my son or his sister.
I also promised Amanda, her brother and this family that I would make sure that they would always be brother and sister, that they would always be able to be in touch with each other and that Amanda would always be a member of this family. She is welcome in my home just as she is.
I think that is called unconditional love. I have loved these children and this family (all of them)for 9 years and I am not going to quit now.
Karen, why is it so hard for you to believe that someone would be so willing to take this child? Isn't this what parents do? I am willing to be a parent to this wonderful child that others have discarded.
I find it hard to understand that you have so little faith in the love this family has for Amanda.Maybe someday you will be able to see.
But again thank you for your concern and by the way. If I was going to abandon Amanda why would I be consulting with attorneys and getting ready to take this into a court room. I am committed to this family and to this child and I am not going away though I believe that once the law suit is filed there will be no more conversing on this site.
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You are very mistaken. There is not list of dangerous people. You are paranoid.
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On 2004-04-10 10:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You are very mistaken. There is not list of dangerous people. You are paranoid."
No - I am not mistaken that isthe exact verbage that is used on the ALA wesite. Apparently I know the website better than you do.
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Paige, program people are control freaks, Karen included. They believe they are the only ones who "know what is best."
Thinking that Karen would ever be able to help you with Amanda, is not logical. Her son has worked for them and may still from time to time work for them. She herself has said so. Her family makes money from the program.
Who knows "one day Nate be a program director." Or, maybe one day he will own a program...."future investment." There is more than one way for the Burnet's to be profiting off of "wayward" youth. Could be now or it could really pay off later. She has learned from her associates just how licrative this industry is.
Anyway, she is not going to help you to help Amanda. All she is going to do is try and convince you that HER program of choice is "better." It is all based on you trusting her and what she says. If she had not erased all of her messages posted over the last year, you would be able to see exactly what kind of person she really is.
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If that is the case, then after reading your rantings, then it is well that you are on the list. I would certainly not want my children having contact with someone like you who wants to interfere with the choices that I make for them as parents. Where do you get off thinking that what you want for the girl is better than what her parents want for her? This is not an issue of what is best for her, but this is an issue of you wanting to be in control and you are not getting your way. It would appear that you are not used to not getting your way. This has nothing to do with the girl. This is all about you. I have been to ALA in Mexico. It is a safe, clean, loving place. The girls are happy. They are very well cared for. Of course she didn't want to be there. Do you mean to say that you have never made her brother do anything he didn't want to do? Only an unfit parent would never make a child do what they didn't want to do. That is paret of the job of being a parent. And along with it, part of the role of a parent is taking criticism from others who try to second guess us. Paige, she is not your daughter. You have not walked in their shoes. You do not know the grief they have gone through. They have chosen this course of action to help her. It is called tough love. The prisons are full of individuals who were never shown tough love. So Paige, if they didn't show tough love, and allowed her to continue the path she was walking, would you be there supporting them or giving further criticism down the road when she was in trouble with the law? There are consequences for your actions. She apparently was not willing to look to the future and see where her actions were taking her. What you are attempting to do is just as bad as the relatives of Elian Gonzalez, the six year old who washed up on the shores of Florida. His father wanted him back in Cuba, but the cousins wouldn't let him, because in their arrogance, they thought they knew what was better for him. They, the cousins, were the ones who hurt the little boy. They interfered with the parent. In the end, justice prevailed and he was reunited with his father. And rightly so, the relatives who tried to interfere, will not be having any contact with him any time soon. If you truly love her, as you claim you do, then you will leave her alone. Stop thinking about yourseslf and think about what you are putting her brother through, or don't you care? Haven't these two children been through enough already without you putting them through more? If you truly love her, then you will support her parents in their trying to help her, instead of tearing them down. She needs to see the adults in her life who truly love her, unified, not divided. You are the one causing division. You do not have to agree with their choice in order to support them. All you are accomplishing is giving justification as to why you shouldn't have any contact with her. There is nothing in anything you have written that would make any parent want to let you near their child. On the contrary. You are interfering. I applaud her parents for loving her so much that they are willing to stand the slander from you and the others who are second guessing their decisions. Just because you don't agree, doesn't make it a bad decision. Based on your writings, she is in a much better place where she is, than being subjected to an influence like you (someone who tries to undermine her parents authority over her). Pray for God's will to be done, not Paige's will to be done.
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I don't know Amanda's parents, but if her brother is living with Paige, and Amanda spent a substantial amount of time living with great-grandparents, it sounds as though Paige is a fit parent and Amanda's birth parents may well be unfit.
I suppose a juvenile court judge will ultimately have to make that call.
I think it is always right and proper to ask tough questions about the fitness of the biological parents if you know the kids have been in the custody of some other person or people for a substantial portion of their childhood.
The parents may well be fit, but the situation certainly invites the question.
Usually when some other relative or foster parent ends up with custody of the kid than the birth parents, there's a GOOD reason.
Not always, but usually.
And usually that reason involves there being something seriously wrong with the birth parents as parents.
Again, I don't know what the answer is, but the situation invites the question.
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These are Amanda's adoptive parents it is a long story but was posted earlier on one of the ALA sites. I think the one called facts about ALA.
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Whoever wrote that long bunch of crud, Elian Gonzalez? the will of Paige? Tough love? sounds like no love to me. Your an idiot. you haven't read any of this. maybe your the adoptive mom who dumped this kid when it got dificult for you and you just didn't want to bother with her anymore.
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"You do not know the grief they have gone through."
What grief? You don't know these people.You are making assumptions. Granted it has been an inconvenience for them but there has never seemed to be any love lost on this deal and remember they are the ones who said they didn't want her back.
but thanks for your opinion.
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Sounds like Karen to me and looks like her spelling.
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On 2004-04-10 08:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
I'm sorry Ginger; I don't know what statement of mine your refering to.
The one suggesting that Paige doesn't know the truth about this girl she's known for the past dozen years and hadn't thought about what might happen after the "honeymoon" phase. That sanctimonious statement.
However; I believe I have consistaintly pointed out, we, none of us, know these folks well enough to judge. That includes you; as insightful as you are.
"
See above :roll: Do you support drug prohibition because it finances criminals at home or because it finances terrorists abroad?
--Anonymous
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On 2004-04-10 10:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
They are there because of choices they have made.
They are there because their parents have paid to have them shipped there. To make certain that crime does not pay, the government should take it
over and try to run it
--G. Norman Collie
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On 2004-04-10 10:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
Pray for God's will to be done with the girl, not Paige's will to be done. God our Father knows what is best, not Paige."
Who are you to speak for God in this manner? How do you know it's not God's will for Amanda to move in w/ her brother? Can you explain to me exactly how God went about telling you this?
Ardent advocates of prohibition were obsessed by a zeal that bordered on fanaticism. They supported politicians who voted to outlaw liquor, no matter how much of it they privately consumed, and spurned politicians who voted against prohibition, no matter how sober they were personally.
Sen. Sam Ervin, Preserving The Constitution
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Professional teen drug programs-- which actually tend to deal with more serious drug problems like cocaine and heroin injection, rather than the odd joint smokers and kids who annoy their parents that WWASP etc seem to admit-- allow kids to just walk out (though of course, they strongly try to discourage them first), then they call the cops.
This means they never have restraint deaths or issues related to restraint. Phoenix House and Daytop, which are the largest teen treatment programs in the US, both follow this policy and do not use restraint or recapture by amateurs or delivery by "escorts."
This has been a very successful policy and it allows those who are trained to deal with escapees to do so, rather than fellow patients or angry staffers with no training.
The notion that kids who are trying to leave a program are a danger to themselves or others is ridiculous: this determination requires a judge and independent professionals to determine competency and cannot be made by those with a financial interest in keeping kids, many of whom have no psychiatric diagnosis at all, locked up.
Genuine programs require a diagnosis-- not just a questionaire that could diagnose any teen at one time or another before admission. Genuine programs don't take the parents word for it that the kids are the problem who need to be sent away and the parents, if they need any help at all, only need help in subjugating them via harsh rules and threats of expulsion from the family.
Of course, even these programs have their problems with using overly harsh and confrontational therapies, but at least they are regulated to some extent and don't physically abuse kids as some kind of punishment.
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Why is it that these Christians always say we should leave it to God when they think someone is trying to interfere with their plans, but when it comes to them interfering....they're doing God's will. I agree with Ginger, I'd like an answer as to how you know that God isn't working through Paige. Ya know, he does work in mysterious ways. :lol: :lol:
Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution, the time will come when medicine will organize an undercover dictatorship. To restrict the art of healing to one class of men, and deny equal privilege to others, will be to constitute the Bastille of medical science. All such laws are un-American and despotic, and have no place in a Republic. The Constitution of this Republic should make special privilege for medical freedom as well as religious freedom.
--Abridged quote-Benjamin Rush, M.D., a signer of the Declaration of Independence
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On 2004-04-10 12:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
The prisons are full of individuals who were never shown tough love.
This is a commonly held misconception. One of the heartaches of having gone through a program is that, half the time, when you track down someone you knew back then, you find them in a department of corrections database.
The prisons are full of people who's parents belonged to a toughlove hategroup.
It is wrong to leave a stumbling stone in the road after it has tripped you.
Hands Out Light
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Cayohueso, I'm not being the least bit snide here. I was just out looking at the sky and thinking about this very exchange. And it reminded me of the day I decided against becoming a formal member of my church.
I'd taken the ... can't remember the term, but it's Presbyterian for Catechism (lol!) And I just couldn't get past the requirement that I swear in God's name that I believe in the litteral death of Jesus and that that belief was the only way to Heaven. I just don't think the God I thought I knew was so petty or cruel to condemn someone to Hell just cause their parents taught them to call him Alla or Budah or whatever.
I think that may have been the thing that convinced my mom that I'd lost my mind and needed to be saved if it killed me. But Pastor Taws understood perfectly. He told me he couldn't explain it, but that it wouldn't be honorable to swear an oath that I didn't believe and reminded me that membership wasn't a pre-requisite for any church activities.
That's the difference. Pastor Taws was just a good guy who'd been a missionary, raised some kids and was cruising comfortably toward retirement as a teacher, pastor and all-round nice guy. My mother, otoh, was a fanatic. She believed she was privy to devine knowledge about my impending demise and that her mission to save me trumped everything from common sense to federal law.
I could be wrong, but that sure looks like the story we're hearing here too.
Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following
pages, are not yet sufficiently fashionable to procure them
general favor; a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong,
gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises
at first a formidable outcry in defence of custom. But the
tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.
Thomas Paine, Common Sense
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Paige, the problem with a situation like yours is its impossible for anyone on the outside to know who's telling the truth.
You might be; and you might not. No body involved with this conversation has any way of knowing, except you.
And about Unconditional Love; I am very familiar with this, believe me. You might actually mean it and be capable of it; but in my experience the average person just isn't. Its like a nice idea - but not actually obtainable. Well, I don't mean that exactly - the love may last irregardless of the circumstances; but living with the Loved one can become impossible with out conditions.
As I alluded to; I have had up close and personal experience with just such a situation. It was a disaster, b/c the grand ma in this case wasn't able to tolerate the conditions of living with the grand daughter when it came down to it. And she had had Plenty of warning of how hard ad challenging it was going to be. She had stars in her eyes and was sure all that was required was Unconditional love which she was sure she could provide. She was way wrong; and it seriously aggravate the already hyped up abandonment issues; caused a lot of extra pain, anger, stress and grief for everybody; and deprived the girl of much needed social services. Nightmare barely gives an idea of how awful it was b/c this grand Ma wouldn't admit her limitations upfront; and refused to face the reality of her grand daughter's situation.
Experience has taught me this is the rule; not the exception in such situations. This is why I'm concerned.
I am not saying this will absolutely be the way it goes for you if Amanda move in with you upon reaching the age of majority - but its a risk you may not have thought threw. That is ALL I'm asking you to do.
You write: "Karen, why is it so hard for you to believe that someone would be so willing to take this child?"
Its not - not at all. And it might be a great thing. I don't know. What concerns me is you might not know either.
Cayo writes: "I agree with Ginger, I'd like an answer as to how you know that God isn't working through Paige. Ya know, he does work in mysterious ways"
I don't know, and you have a point.
I actually take great comfort in this on many occassions. I may judge wrongly. God never does.
Ginger has her jab at me: " The one suggesting that Paige doesn't know the truth about this girl she's known for the past dozen years and hadn't thought about what might happen after the "honeymoon" phase. That sanctimonious statement. "
Ginger, I didn't say that. I do not know how well Paige knows Amanda. I have no idea. I do know, there is always a "honey moon" phase were everything is roses (or apples as the Aussies say) and then things change. How they change will naturally varry. Paige needs to get her eyes wide open before going forward.
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On 2004-04-10 19:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
Paige, the problem with a situation like yours is its impossible for anyone on the outside to know who's telling the truth.
That's because the folks at ALA won't allow the kid to talk to anyone outside the cult.
you Momma is a big fat's ________
--Leroy Brown
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Ginger writes:
"I'd taken the ... can't remember the term, but it's Presbyterian for Catechism (lol!) And I just couldn't get past the requirement that I swear in God's name that I believe in the litteral death of Jesus and that that belief was the only way to Heaven."
We have similar stories. I wouldn't join the Presbyterian church I grew up in b/c the Pastor didn't believe basic Christain doctrin.
Whats the point of joining a 'church' that has abandoned Christain doctrin, was my thinking.
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On 2004-04-10 19:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
Ginger, I didn't say that. I do not know how well Paige knows Amanda. I have no idea. I do know, there is always a "honey moon" phase were everything is roses (or apples as the Aussies say) and then things change. How they change will naturally varry. Paige needs to get her eyes wide open before going forward
The difference, Karen, is that you've probably never met the kid or the parents or the extended family while Paige has been this kid's family since she was, what, 7 years old?
Didn't your mother ever explain to you that it's rude to give unsolicited advice to strangers, especially advice regarding their very personal lives?
Who at ALA thinks they know more about this family than the family does?
Oh well, Paige, I hope you've gotten a good enough answer to your questions so that you can explain to the judge what's going on. I hope you get a favorable ruliing and a speedy reunion. If you need to verify information posted here, please feel free to have your lawyer contact me.
for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.
--Alexander Hamilton
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On 2004-04-10 19:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
Paige needs to get her eyes wide open before going forward. "
OK, Paiges eyes have been WIDE open for quite some time now so drop it already.
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On 2004-04-10 19:23:00, Antigen wrote:
Oh well, Paige, I hope you've gotten a good enough answer to your questions so that you can explain to the judge what's going on. I hope you get a favorable ruliing and a speedy reunion. If you need to verify information posted here, please feel free to have your lawyer contact me.
Ginger, thank you so very much for your help and your input. I would like to thank all of you for information and opinions that you have contributed and I would like to thank Butcher and Turd for not being offensive. I appreciate it. I will be signing off. We have received some very valid and helpful information. The family will be meeting in the next few days and will be proceeding with our plans to file a custody suit and other suits that I will not name on this site because I am sure that Karen is telling the parents.
(No offense Karen)The filing date will be at a future date at the advice of our attorney.
Ginger, thanks for offering the verification it may come in handy. Keep up the good work and best wishes to all of you. I will let you all now the outcome. Of course court battles can be somewhat lengthy but I will log back on when the results are in.
Best Wishes to all of you.
PS. Karen you were being "taped" but this type has witnesses and can be verified. God love you. Thanks for all of your help.
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On 2004-04-10 17:15:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2004-04-10 10:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
They are there because of choices they have made.
They are there because their parents have paid to have them shipped there. To make certain that crime does not pay, the government should take it
over and try to run it
--G. Norman Collie
"
They are there as a result of their choices. It is cause and effect. If you run out in front of a car, you will get hit. The girl is there, a direct result of bad choices she has made. We are so blessed to live in a country where we are all allowed to have our own opinions. Just because it is your opinion, does not make it true. Have you personally been there? Do you personally have a relative who has been there? If not, then your in put is just that, your input. Not the facts.
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Ginger, you are misinformed if you think Paige is "family."
She is not related to the student in question in any way. She is a close aquaintence.
She adopted a little boy and h is her son.
Another family adopted the little girl, and she is their daughter. Paige's son is related to Amanda; but Paige isn't.
Paige, I haven't spoken with Amanda's parents since the day the girls took off. I don't expect to, tho it is possible.
It is also possible they are reading this Forum as well, isn't it?
Don't you think they have a pretty good idea what you all about with out any help from me?
I do hope you folks can get things worked out; and I hope you'll have sence enough to tred lightly on the young lives you may otherwise trample under foot as you do battle.
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On 2004-04-10 19:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2004-04-10 19:23:00, Antigen wrote:
Another Elian Gonzalez case where others feel they are more qualified to have custody of a child than the parent.
My prayers are for the girl to realize the choices she has been making are bad choices; and for the parents.
Paige, pray that God's will be done, not Paige's will be done. She is not your daughter. If you want to interfere with the parental rights of someone, in Arizona a woman was just sentenced to 20 years in prison for prostituting her 13 year old daughter for crack cocaine. There is a noble and worthy cause for you to step in and help. the mother is obviously an unfit parent.
Please don't confuse a difference of parenting styles (yours vs. the girl's mom) with bad parenting.
God bless her parents for loving her enough to demonstrate tough love.
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On 2004-04-10 20:40:00, Anonymous wrote: The girl is there, a direct result of bad choices she has made.
HMMMMM! How do you know what choices the girl made? Are you the mom?
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Karen wrote this: I assume Amanda's parents feel they are following God's direction; and I would not second guess them. If they've made a mistake, I trust God will somehow let them know.
Anon writes this: Maybe God has, by sending Paige.
Nice Quote from the Family coordinaotr for ALa don't you think.
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On 2004-04-10 17:18:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2004-04-10 10:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
Pray for God's will to be done with the girl, not Paige's will to be done. God our Father knows what is best, not Paige."
Who are you to speak for God in this manner? How do you know it's not God's will for Amanda to move in w/ her brother? Can you explain to me exactly how God went about telling you this?
The parental authority over the child rests with the parents, not for this person who is trying to interfere with their decisions in the girls life.
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On 2004-04-09 18:12:00, Paige wrote:
"Sorry - not screaming -just want those who don't seem to be able to read the smaller type and understand it, that I'm not giving up on this child.
Sounds like the parents aren't giving up on her either. That is why they are demonstrating tough love with the girl. Because they love her.
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On 2004-04-09 20:33:00, Paige wrote:
They know the history and they know that this is the right thing to do. Do you think that all of us are wrong?
"
Yes. You are not the parent. You are trying to usurp their authority. Yes, you are very wrong
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On 2004-04-09 20:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"People need to understand that God is not in the business of fixing troubled teens.
Jesus is in the business of healing those who need it.
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On 2004-04-10 16:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Whoever wrote that long bunch of crud, Elian Gonzalez? the will of Paige? Tough love? sounds like no love to me. Your an idiot. you haven't read any of this. maybe your the adoptive mom who dumped this kid when it got dificult for you and you just didn't want to bother with her anymore."
Proverbs 18:2
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On 2004-04-12 12:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2004-04-09 18:12:00, Paige wrote:
"Sorry - not screaming -just want those who don't seem to be able to read the smaller type and understand it, that I'm not giving up on this child.
Sounds like the parents aren't giving up on her either. That is why they are demonstrating tough love with the girl. Because they love her."
You don't know why they sent her there. If you do please enlighten all of us, i will promise you that in this particular case it is the parents who need to be there.