Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on March 25, 2004, 09:29:00 PM
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Personally, I don't see the face of a happy camper, either pre or post program. But what really concerned me were the legally prescribed drugs this boy was taking.
:eek:
http://www.teenswithproblems.com/mystory.html#intro (http://www.teenswithproblems.com/mystory.html#intro)
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I take it the ID number is so the person gets credit for referring a parent-in-crisis?
http://www.teenswithproblems.com/teenformx.html (http://www.teenswithproblems.com/teenformx.html)
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We went back again the next day and spent another two hours with staff, going over the program and visiting the facility.
Not with her son? Why on Earth would a mother spend her final day before leaving her son thousands of miles from home in Mexico with anyone other than her son?I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
-- Hunter S. Thompson
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Yes, a lot of "stuff", too much on this site. Very cluttered.
I do see happy faces on this site, but I also want to say just because someone is not "smiling" doesn't mean they aren't at peace with their life.
http://www.wwasp.com/source03/Mar-04L.pdf (http://www.wwasp.com/source03/Mar-04L.pdf)
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"Not with her son? Why on Earth would a mother spend her final day before leaving her son thousands of miles from home in Mexico with anyone other than her son?"
You really don't see? Could it be that the son wasn't himself, drugs or whatever, and wanted nothing to do with mom's responsible visit to the school? I get that she loved her son enough to tour and know he was in good hands.
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After flying w/ his mom and then driving for hours w/ his mom and another relative, all of a sudden he can't stand the site of her?
Doesn't wash. Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism--how passionately I hate them!
--Albert Einstein
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I would like to respond. My name is Kathi, and I am the owner of the Teens with Problems web site. My son, unbeknownst to me, stole 2 bottles of cough syrup from the airport in Las Vegas on our way to Los Angeles and drank both of them when he went to the bathroom. Obviously, I could not follow him in there. I was with him the entire time otherwise and never saw him take the cough syrup. He was very adept at shoplifting. After I dropped him off at the program and went back the next day, they told me he was very high on something but I had no idea on what. He had been sitting in the back seat of my sister's car listening to CDs and not talking on our final leg of the drive, but considering the circumstances, I did not think that was unusual. I did not see him when I went back the next day because he was in the process of being oriented to the program. It was not safe to spend my last night with him in Mexico because he probably would have died or gotten arrested had I done so.
My son graduated this program and is home and doing well. He has a high school diploma, is working full time and planning on going to college in the fall. None of this would have happened without this program. This program was good for my entire family. So you who have never experienced a child self-destructing can say what you want, but it saved my son's life.
Regarding the medications, my son heard voices telling him to do things. He also had mood swings so extreme that he would literally get out of bed screaming at everybody. Judge if you will, but if you have never been through it, you may not exactly understand the circumstances that would lead a parent to search for whatever means possible to save the life of her child.
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Actually I HAVE been in your position. I had a very out of control child at one point. Somehow we muddled our way through without me having to resort to locking her up. I'm so tired of parents saying 'what were we supposed to do? :scared: He/She was out of control.' How 'bout being an involved, attentive parent from the start so you can build a trusting[/b] relationship with them that goes BOTH ways. No one gets out of teenhood without some scars......that's the point....that's where we learn to deal with the extremes of life. When it gets too tough for the parents, ship 'em off, someone else will fix the damage you've done. :roll: :roll:
Tough Love: Abuse of a type particularly enjoyable to the abuser, in that it combines the pleasures of sadism with those of self-righteousness. Commonly employed and widely admired in 12-step groups.
--Chaz Bufe
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I have 8 children. All but one were drug users. All are now clean and doing well. I did everything I possibly could before I sent this one son away. He was so out of control he would have died. I had one son that did die in a DUI car accident that he caused and that also killed another woman. I was not going to sit back and watch that happen again. I have absolutely no regrets. He is alive and doing well now.
BTW, I am also a homeschooler and a born-again Christian. I believe that a parent is a child's best teacher. However, homeschooling did not work with this son as it did with my other kids. If I had felt I had any other choices, I would have taken them. His counselor once told me he hoped my son would get arrested so he could get some help. His school counselor told me he was so impulsive he was going to end up killing himself. His substance abuse counselor told me the same thing. We had 3-4 trips to the ER for drug overdoses in the last month or two he was home. He was hospitalized for 7 days on an inpatient psych unit very delusional after taking who knows how many hits of acid, eating 3 boxes of Coricidin and drinking 2 bottles of cough syrup. This was a month before he went into the program. His psychiatrist congratulated me for putting him in a program because "it saved his life."
Enough said, he is alive and doing very well. It was a very very tough decision, but I have no regrets. We did the right thing for him.
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On 2004-03-26 09:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
BTW, I am also a homeschooler and a born-again Christian.
Sorry, but that explains everything right there!! Well, OK....not the homeschooling. I don't have anything against that.A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trust either of them
P.J. O'Rourke
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On 2004-03-26 09:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have 8 children. All but one were drug users.
BTW, I am also a born-again Christian.
Thou art a christloving buffoon.
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One more thing. He may be 'saved' for the moment, but I shudder to think of what you're going to have to deal with in 5, 10 or 20 years from now. It hasn't been fun.
I'm not saying he didn't need help, but NO ONE needs THAT kind of help.Education is that which remains, if one has forgotten everything he learned in school.
--Albert Einstein, Out of My Later Years, 1950
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Interesting....and people are always accusing the Christians of being judgmental.
My faith in Jesus has gotten me through many very incredibly difficult times, including the death of my little 5-year-old grandson at Easter two years ago and my son's death 6 years ago, as well as my other son's problems and my sister, with whom I am very close, nearly dying of a massive heart attack and then having her leg amputated because of diabetes 3 years ago. My grandson was found hanging by his neck when he slipped and got stuck in a small apple tree. His older brothers were not 20 feet away playing basketball with some friends. He didn't make a sound and nobody saw him until it was too late...he was buried with his Easter basket. An incredibly terrible loss for my family!!! Without my faith, I would have never survived a second death of a young person in our family. We've been through hell and back, but I am still here, doing well myself, and I wake up every day thankful for so many good things that the Lord has provided for us.
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I'm really glad for you, honestly I am. But I see no reason to further this discussion with you. Born again Christians seem to be the most closed mined people I have ever met. Yes, I realize the irony in stating that. I am completely closed minded when it comes to discussing important issues with 'born again Christians'. It just doesn't work for me.
Innocence implies the ability to restrain from the initiation of aggression, and to question those who don't.
Sorin Cucerai
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Me too. My daughter seemed to have entirely lost her mind there for awhile. The differences between the situation she chose for herself and the Program were subtle. How ironic, huh? But they were important differences. The moment she decided she wanted out, she had every kind of help and support on tap. The cops would not arrest her for running away, we would not change the locks and kick her out but, instead, make a big cherry cheesecake w/ french cream then go on a weeks long shopping, decorating and home improvement spree to celebrate her return home.
Instead of trying to force her into "finding her bottom", we just stayed on her side, regardless, till she decided she'd had enough. Might she have been killed somehow? Sure. It happens. Thankfully, in our case, it did not. Like most people who go a bit overboard as teenagers, my daughter decided to get her act together and start working toward things like education, income, her own car, etc. all on her own.
But, unlike you, I know what happens when parents do send their kids off for thought-reform treatment. Death and insanity are fairly common outcomes from this kind of treatment. Just try and track down some sort of documentation for that laughable 98% success rate they claim. You won't find it, it's a total fabrication.
First, we're really not kidding about the high number of suicides among former Program clients or the cooralation between Program recruiting grounds and increases in teen suicide and serious depression. That means that, for example, the teen suicide rate went from 1 to 6 in Cape Coral during the year or two that a Straight program was open there. Doesn't mean your son will necessarily become suicideal. But it's a pretty safe bet that some of the kids he knew and, maybe, became attached to in the Program will not see their 30th birthdays. It's heartbreaking looking up old friends from the Program. I hardly ever dare to do it because either the news is not good or they don't want to be found and reminded of our weird little shared history.
There's little chance that you'll ever have back the kind of trust that we all need to have in our parents. Yes, I know, he's "doing well", coloring inside the lines and all that. But you just don't know what you're saying when you repeat the mantra that the Program saved his sorry, hopeless ass. It's as cruel a statement as telling a rape victim that they were never raped and they shouldn't go around saying such awful things about dear old Uncle Joe or Fr. Cassian. And you do not know what would have happened if you had not put him in the Program. I have news for you! Lots of kids get high on cough syrup. Many, many go pretty crazy w/ drugs for awhile. Very few people stick w/ habits that have really debilitating consequences.
And how do you know that all the tinkering and tampering by all the shrinks and counselors didn't contribute to his problems? Ever been on the receiving end of that kind of "help"? Every time I read or hear a parent repeat that mantra "We tried everything; shrinks, drug treatment, this, that, whatever... nothing worked!" (oh yes, dear, it goes all the way back to Art Barker and The Seed, at least!) I wonder if it ever occured to them to just not mess with the kid for awhile. The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism.
--William Osler
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I get that she loved her son enough to tour and know he was in good hands. "
A tour of Casa by the Sea is a dog-and-pony show, highly restricted in what is presented to the parent. When my daughter "dropped off" her 14yo child [no previous visit, kid had new underwear and was driven the 500 miles to Ensenada with the intent to leave her there, no matter what], what the mother was exposed to was NOT what her child lived for nearly a year!
When I first expressed my concerns, just days after the enrollment and with enough time to discover really alarming things about WWASPS, my daughter emailed me the following:
"...Mealtime is supposed to be quiet, but when we were there, there was an audio tape playing, but all the girls were talking, so you couldn't really hear it. I was curious how the kids could write a 'reflection' on the tape when they weren't listening to it."
These were Upper Level girls, talking freely, eating "salad, quesadilla, and beans for lunch". They probably had heard the "inspirational" audio tape a thousand times, and were adept at faking a reflection on a message geared to business and sales meeting attendees. They had learned how to toe the line and manipulate the staff by producing the same ole' paperwork that is judged only by length, not content. [Manipulation is a talent learned in Casa by the Sea that is still haunting us today. If you thought these kids manipulated before, look at how they learned to dance to whatever pulled strings they were faced with. See the recent Cross Creek graduate testimony, and see how this young lady worked the system.]
When this mother enjoyed the teen chatter, she assumed this would be her daughter's experience also. It was not. The child spent 10 months, achieving only Level II, which means no talking without permission, nor phone calls home. One of her comments recently was about 3 talented singers, inmates from LA who were allowed to visit various "families" from time to time and serenade the girls with requests of Backstreet Boys, 'N Synch, etc. I asked if they sang a capella (without instrumental background). She answered, "Yes, but we could hum along some. Of course, we couldn't talk, so we couldn't really sing." They don't tell you that on the tour, do they?
As for the CCM graduate's post, she explained at length how she was defiant, but finally came around...and that she was there for 26 months. Our grandaughter was also defiant, not agressively so, but enough that she was repeatedly shot down for "promotion" to Level III by the Student Council, even though she had enough points, and staff support letters. You need 3 approval agreements, and Student Council refused her on the basis that she was "not consistent enough" and had a bad attitude. The expertise of these young people in formulating exactly what they thought was wrong and what steps were necessary to meet their vague criteria was so inept that she presumed that "consistent" maybe meant that she should say exactly the same thing for weeks and "be consistent". This strategy also failed, and she never did know what distinct paramemters would allow her to advance. Student Council kept her on the low rung, unable to speak with peers, unable to participate in any leisure activity, unable to enjoy better quality food, and unable to communicate with her own parent unless through the censored letters passing through staff. This isolation, with ample time spent in Worksheets, aka solitary confinement, was her life for her 14th year. They don't tell you that on the tour, do they?
FYI, this same tour is the one offered our US Department of State representative, checking on US citizens' welfare at Casa by the Sea. He has lunch with Dace Goulding about every 3rd Wednesday, then is taken on a closely-supervised "tour" and...surprise, surprise...doesn't find any obvious abuse nor has any child run up to him (with the Director alongside), complaining of conditions at Casa by the Sea. They don't tell you that on the tour, do they?
So, to say "...I get that she loved her son enough to tour and know he was in good hands." is a crock of shit.
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I know tons of kids who have graduated from these kinds of programs, and most of them are doing very well. I don't know any that are insane. I have heard no such statistics about horrific suicide rates. I'd be very interested if you would put a link on this site to your published data that shows these statistics as you must be quoting something that backs up your point.
The thing is, my son is doing very well and so is the rest of my family. It does amaze me that there are plenty of families out there who have had very good success with these programs, yet people who want to believe they are bad will just ignore that and point out that even though they are doing well now, PERHAPS in 10 or 20 years, they will have a problem, so you better watch out. Give me a break! These programs are not for everyone, and obviously they are not for you, and that's okay. Nobody is faulting you for NOT putting your child in a program. However, these programs do serve a purpose and that does not mean they are not good for anyone. Many kids are able to work out their problems on their own, as six of my kids were able to do. Pulling them out of school to homeschool greatly helped 3 of them. One of them got clean through the NA program. The rest were only very casual users who really caused no other problems and just stopped of their own accord. Even the next worst user in my family (the one who died) was a heavenly angel compared to the one that we put in the program, who, by the way, was also doing many illegal activities, which I will not mention here. If we had not put him in a program, he would have ended up in juvie anyhow...locked up one way or the other no matter what. The way we did it, he ended up getting some help instead of just being locked up to serve a sentence.
I will also add that my son was never abused in any of these programs. He has had plenty of opportunities to tell me if he was and I have point blank asked him. He learned a lot about himself and handles himself very well since he got home. The many parents I know who have put their child in a program such as these are very caring parents who love their kids and would do anything for them.
Also, for the record, I became a born-again Christian 6 years ago, right after my son died. Before that, I had no particular religious affiliation at all, and my kids were raised without any religion in the home. It has been since I became a born again Christian that all of my children have gotten clean of drugs and are doing well -- within the last 5 years to be exact. The only one of my kids to have never used drugs is also a born-again Christian.
Okay, bottom line is that my family is the most stable it has ever been, and life is good these days. Call me narrow-minded, judgmental or whatever you want. I would not change a thing and I stand by my choices.
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On 2004-03-26 11:12:00, spots wrote:
"So, to say "...I get that she loved her son enough to tour and know he was in good hands." is a crock of shit.
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Grandma! Oh my!
But yeah, that's pretty much how it's done. What I was getting at in asking the question, though, is what this parent describes as "orientation". Right from intake, even though the parent is on the property, zero contact is permitted. Total isolation from familiar faces or even reminders of life beofore intake is a constant in these programs.
Duct tape is like the force; it has a light side and a dark side and it holds the universe together.
--Jedi Knight school drop out.
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I'm sorry, but little birdies are flying around my head, shouting "Isn't there something bizarre about being so open about having 8 kids, all of whom are more-than-your-average teen failure, and almost proudly proclaiming that you are a near-total failure as a parent?" Make that a Total Failure, since exponentially (times eight), you have procreated for the world a large group of people, about 1/3 the average high-school classroom, who ALL seem to need/find relief from their world by chemically leaving it. I get the impression your kids are not the average "gotta try it sometime" experimenters with pot.
Kathi, maybe your child who spent some of his youth in a cult brainwashing tour may be your "best" effort at child rearing. Really, really sad.
BTW, your group-speak "deadorinjail" and "If we had not put him in a program, he would have ended up in juvie anyhow" means that you seriously need to visit your local "juvie" and see what the conditions really are. Tour a WWASPS facility and be lied to: tour juvie and odds are strong you will find incarcerated teens, supported strongly by the staff, clean, well-fed, and able to talk with parents, lawyers, newspaper reporters, use the computer, hopefully doing meaningful work around the place. Try to convince me that WWASPS is a better alternative to juvie? Like trying to convince me that God loves you more than He does me because you come together and celebrate Him according to your group rules, while I prefer to speak to Him privately.
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On 2004-03-26 11:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I know tons of kids who have graduated from these kinds of programs, and most of them are doing very well.
Tons? At roughly 150lb per kid, I guess that would mean you know around 25 kids then?
I don't know any that are insane.
How well do you know them?
I have heard no such statistics about horrific suicide rates.
No, and you won't. Not for some time and only if either you go looking or some of your fellow Program vets enjoy some success at bringing to light the darker realities behind those glossy sales brochures. When a kid or parent starts complaining, the program devout excommunicate them. Not only will they not volunteer contact information for people who are not happy with them, they tend to go out of their way to discourage contact.
I'd be very interested if you would put a link on this site to your published data that shows these statistics as you must be quoting something that backs up your point.
http://thestraights.com/theprogram/suicides.htm (http://thestraights.com/theprogram/suicides.htm)
Given the numerous similarities and shared heritage between Seed/Straight programs and the CEDU/WWASP variety, it would be foolish for any concerned parent to ignore the studied outcomes.
If we had not put him in a program, he would have ended up in juvie anyhow...locked up one way or the other no matter what. The way we did it, he ended up getting some help instead of just being locked up to serve a sentence.
I've been to both. After enduring the Program for almost two years for fear of detention it was almost too much to bear. You just can't imagine how it wears on you to have everyone around you constantly scrutinizing your every move. That was the primary difference. In juvenile detention, they took measures to prevent escape and violence. Other than that, you could think, feel or say whatever you wanted w/o anyone getting bothered about it. I read a lot of Jules Verne, played a lot of gin rummy w/ the other girls and staff and just enjoyed the blessed relief.
I will also add that my son was never abused in any of these programs. He has had plenty of opportunities to tell me if he was and I have point blank asked him. He learned a lot about himself and handles himself very well since he got home.
And what would you do if he told you it was awful? If he rejected the Program? Doesn't ALA come with a "Warrantee" like the others? Only a damned fool would do or say anything that would get them sent back or trigger the "exit plan".
The many parents I know who have put their child in a program such as these are very caring parents who love their kids and would do anything for them.
Yes, and the doctors who bled George Washington to death did so with all the good intentions in the world. They were still wrong.
Also, for the record, I became a born-again Christian 6 years ago, right after my son died. Before that, I had no particular religious affiliation at all, and my kids were raised without any religion in the home. It has been since I became a born again Christian that all of my children have gotten clean of drugs and are doing well -- within the last 5 years to be exact. The only one of my kids to have never used drugs is also a born-again Christian.
That doesn't add up. You just got done telling me that this one who recently went through ALA was the worst of the worst, even worse than the one who died. Which is it?
Okay, bottom line is that my family is the most stable it has ever been, and life is good these days. Call me narrow-minded, judgmental or whatever you want. I would not change a thing and I stand by my choices.
"
Just wait and see then. [1971 - 2001] the darkest chapter in Federal law enforcement history.
Committee on Government Reform
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Cayo & Ginger
I understand why you are so turned off by the "Born Again". There is often a terribly judgmental attitude and many are of a very legalistic mind. Turns me off to.
But I hope you won't ignore an important message just b/c you don't much like the messinger/s.
I don't want to Thump on anything - but would like to make a suggestion. . .
Read the Book yourself. See for yourself what the message is; undefiled by the interpretation of others; who may or may not be passing the message along with its integrity intact.
I would like to suggest you read a little of the old testament prophets; simply b/c this is how you can know Yeshua was telling the Truth about who He is.
Personally, I think Isaiah 53 would be a great place to start; and very much in keeping with the season. Also, the 22 psalm.
You might go onto look at Zechariah 9 vs 9; and 11 vs 12 & 13.
There are more than 300 to consider just having to do with His Birth, ministry, death and resurrection. Isaiah is especially rich in Messianic prophecy; but so are many other of the prophets as well as the Psalms.
There are something like 700 pertaining to the second coming and related events ; so you'll no doubt run across many of them, if you do any delving at all.
You are probably familiar with the basics of the gospel accounts; but even so, take the time to read them. Then you might want to consider reading threw Romans as it is all about the salvation message.
Just see for yourself what the message is from the Messenger Himself.
And you Casa folks - Pay attention to Spots post. She is telling you the truth.
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On 2004-03-26 11:41:00, spots wrote:
I get the impression your kids are not the average "gotta try it sometime" experimenters with pot.
Yeah, my guess is that Kathi is operating under that same impression, but it's probably as false for her as it was for my mom. Of the 6 of us, the only one to escape the Program was my oldest sister who was already in college by then. She remains the only one in the whole family to have accomplished a 4 year degree. Just earned her masters at teaching a couple of years ago. Not a slouch among us before the Program saved us all from ourselves, except one brother who had trouble pulling As and Bs like the rest of us. A student burst into his office. "Professor Stigler, I don't believe I deserve this F you've given me." To which Stigler replied, "I agree, but unfortunately it is the lowest grade the University will allow me to award."
--Professor Stigler
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Ginger Asks:
"And how do you know that all the tinkering and tampering by all the shrinks and counselors didn't contribute to his problems? Ever been on the receiving end of that kind of "help"? Every time I read or hear a parent repeat that mantra "We tried everything; shrinks, drug treatment, this, that, whatever... nothing worked!" (oh yes, dear, it goes all the way back to Art Barker and The Seed, at least!) I wonder if it ever occured to them to just not mess with the kid for awhile."
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Yes, like leave the child's brain alone, or at least free from psychotropic drugs. Why do these shrinks prescribe such mind-altering drugs to teens? People think Dr. Peter Breggin is a nutball for speaking out against psychotropics, but it sounds to me like the real nutballs are the ones pushing these drugs as the answer to controlling unwanted behavior in children and adolescents. Bullshit! There are other ways, less invasive, less risky. Parents, read what Breggin has to say before filling those prescriptions. Your child is worth the extra effort.
http://www.breggin.com (http://www.breggin.com)
:smokin:
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I appreciate your sentiments, I do but I just cannot go there. In my opinion, religion is the root of all evil. Religions were developed by man, the bible was written by man, it doesn't mean a thing to me. Any spirituality I may have is my own personal thing. As I said before on another thread, I think the bible is a good work of fiction used to illustrate moral points that the particular religion is interested in fostering. That can be good and bad. When men are involved (not men, humans) in this they can't HELP but put their spin on things. The docudrama analogy is the one that seems to fit best. I believe the bible is based on[/b] certain historical facts, but by the time they've been passed down and translated and re-translated and interpreted and re-interpreted...how can ANYONE trust it enough to give it that much power? Again, I'm speaking of religion, not spirituality...they are very different things. I mean there are some valuable lessons that can be taken from it, but I liken that to Aesop's Fables.
Religion is a cult from the get-go. You're told to believe. If you DON'T believe......then you're damned for all time. The way to show that you believe is to abide by the rules set up by these men who believe in this way of life. They'd like to see EVERYONE benefit from what they've found (sound eerily familiar??) so by God, they're going to set up a bunch of rules for everyone to follow. How do you get a large number of people to do what you want them to do....scare the shit out of them and then tell them that you have the answer, that their way alone is the way to salvation (can I hear an Amen???). Very effective tool. It worked great on our parents.
I really didn't mean to go off on a tirade...I respect your faith and appreciate the sentiments. I just can't go there.There never was a good war or a bad peace.
--Benjamin Franklin, (1773)
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But Cayo-
Christianity isn't religion. Really. Its the only faith which isn't.
There are many who try and make it so; but they are the legalistic & judgmental folks I spoke of.
Religion , all of them, are a set of rules and beliefs that will supposedly get you into Heaven if you follow them exactly enough.
Christianity, is God saying, I will take you as are and make you clean and well and Holy and you will live forever with me where I Am.
Religion is man reaching out to God.
Christianity is God reaching down to man.
As for who wrote the Bible; the prophets I spoke of are the proof it wasn't man writing the scriptures. Men served as scribes; but thats all.
Prophecy is a very astounding thing and no other collection of 'holy' writing have any thing like it.
It won't hurt you any to explore a little. Dive in! The waters alive and very refreshing!
:wink:
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Anon, for about 800 years the Hebrews, who did not have an alphabet, writing, or something to write upon, told the Old Testment stories around the campfire. (Even today, the Jews keep oral histories as a part of their life.) It would be impossible for the Bible stories to remain in their original form over 800 years!
Now the New Testment was written when few people knew how to read or write and/or own written material. The earliest "Christians" were Jews who followed the teachings of Jesus. Since the writers of the New Testment wrote the letters, as Paul did, or the gospels, they also read the Old Testment, and in fact, knew the Old Testment very well. The gospels were written 40 to 70+ years after Christ died. They were written by people who did not know Christ, (maybe Paul met someone who knew Christ)and did not know anyone who knew Christ. They wrote in a language that Jesus did not speak. But the authors of the gospels were writing advertising copy for a new religion and used their knowledge of the Old Testment to create the story that Jesus was the one prophesied hundreds of years earlier. These writers never thought many would read their writings or that many would go over their writings with a fine tooth comb and notice inconsistencies or events that happened like say 40 years after Christ's death.
This does not take away the teachings of Jesus, who it seems was trying to update some facets of the Jewish religion. The greatest message I get from Jesus, and other spiritual leaders from other religions is that God expects up to improve. My favorite Bible passage comes from the Sermon on the Mount. "Judge not, lest ye be judged." It is probably one of the hardest ones to live by too. Especially since I judge WWASP harshly.
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Hi Janet -
Your forgetting Paul met Yeshua on the road to Damascus. And he knew Peter, as well as others who were around during the Ministry years. He was Baptized in the Sprit in a mighty way and certainly knew the Lord's voice when he herd it. Ditto the Apostles.
I don't want to get into where and when the Hebrew Nation began writing stuff down; but its worth noting more and more achient examples are found; and no doubt the most achient have long sense vanished into dust. But even if your account is accurate; and the Old Testament is largely oral history eventually written down (as I and the Jews believe by Moses) keep in mind - we are talking about what God has said; and the history of His people; and with God nothing is impossible!
And please note this; the Prophets and the prophetic books are another situation entirely.
Keep in mind, for the most part, the Jewish tribes were very unhappy with the messages from their prophets. Even so, b/c they each and every one passed the test of a Prophet of God (100% accuracy) they very carefully preserved their words and when re copied were extremely cautious not to change one jot - b/c they knew these were the words of the All Mighty Himself; otherwise that astounding accuracy rating would not have been possible. They might have murdered the prophet; beat him, tossed him in pits of sludge and muck (see Jeremiah) but they very carefully preserved his words.
The words of Isaiah were written 700 years prior to the birth of Christ. The psalms of David 2000 years prior. They describe His death very exactly, even tho such a death was non existent at the time. I especially love Isaiah 53, b/c not only does he tell us how the Messiah would die, but he explains why.
Israel is another very fascinating subject of Biblical Prophecy. People today for the most part don't recall a time when there was no Nation of Israel; but for 2000 years there was none. No nation once destroyed and scattered has ever before remained a separate and distinguishable people; and no such nation has ever before been regathered and reborn. No other example exist of a dead language coming back into usage - only the Biblical Hebrew spoken in Israel today. No other was "born" and then suffered the "birthing pains", as modern Israel was.
It was quite impossible that any of this would take place. For generations, Biblical scholars declared all the many, many prophecies declaring these events to "not mean what they say." What they did mean was hottly debated; but they certainly couldn't mean what they said; b/c that was impossible!!
God meant exactly what He said - and He did it.
Prophecy is Very unique; and Very amazing and is Proof God is who He says He is.
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On 2004-03-26 12:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
Bullshit! There are other ways [of to controlling unwanted behavior in children and adolescents], less invasive, less risky. Parents, read what Breggin has to say before filling those prescriptions. Your child is worth the extra effort.
http://www.breggin.com (http://www.breggin.com)
I think the trouble comes in about a step and a half before that. I don't control my kids. There! I admit it! By legal and some community standards, I'm an utter, total and complete failure as a parent.
Howsomever, my kids seem to do a fine job of controling themselves. The littler ones take more of my advice than the bigger ones, that's true enough. But then, they don't know how to cook and are too little to make it to the park and back on their own steam. That probably has something to do with it.
If I want a chore done, I don't make threats or stamp my feet and demand it. I'll make a good, logical case for why they ought to do it. The "punishment" for not doing it is that it doesn't get done or I wind up doing in and will then be somewhat less willing to do them a favor later. They're sentient, intelligent people well on their way to becoming adults and then taking over the world just like we have done. There is no need for coercion.
Freedom has a thousand charms to show, That slaves, howe'er contented, never know.
William Cowper, a British Christian poet & hymn writer (18th century)
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Anon, I do not want to argue the Bible with you, but I will make one last set of remarks. First of all, I mentioned that Paul may have known some of those who knew Jesus.
Secondly, you refuse to acknowledge that the gospels, which were written long after Jesus died by writers who did not know Jesus or anyone who did know Jesus. They wrote the gospels so that it did look like the ancient Hebrew prophesies. They knew the prophesies and they applied them to Jesus.
Thirdly, if you believe that God so loved the world he sent Jesus, and if you know anything about history and geography, you must come to the conclusion that God sent others not just Jesus. The followers of the God of Abraham lived in such a small area of the world and at a time when travel was limited. Much of the world was unknown to those people of the Middle East. The Western Hemisphere, Australia, the Pacific Islands, Japan, and China were not in the Biblical sphere. For thousands of years millions of people did not know of the God of Abraham. How can that be if God was so loving? He must have sent others who founded other religions.
Finally, Revelations, Chapter 7, verse 1 mentions four angels standing on the four corners of the earth. If God had written the Bible, he'd have known there were no four corners of the earth, and now we know it too, becuase astronauts have sent back photos of our beautiful planet. Unfortunately the writers of God's word thought the earth was flat.
God may have inspired the Bible, but he did not write it or make prophesies in it. Any prophesies in it were written by people who know those prophesies and wrote things to make sure people thought they came true. It is easy to predict about something when you are writing 40 to 70 years after the fact. It's kinda like Monday morning quarterbacking.
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OK folks, this isn't WWASP's website. It's a
PROGRAM PARENT'S website. Please note the "contact
code" given. My guess is that this woman was
promised forgiveness of fees for each new kid
she can refer to the program. The code is so
she can get the credit.
http://www.teenswithproblems.com/teenformx.html (http://www.teenswithproblems.com/teenformx.html)
Peace,
TommyMay your days be joyously challenging and your words artfully true.
--Ginger Warbis
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Hi Janet.
I also have no wish to argue; theres no point. I disagree with everythinig you have said, and I think there is ample proof you don't know what your talking about; but why argue?
Wouldn't be likely to change your mind, would you? Nor am I. So we best just leave it at that.