Fornits
General Interest => Open Free for All => Topic started by: Pete on February 24, 2004, 12:59:00 PM
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As a survivor of a somewhat warped treatment center and a member of a 12-step program who has been helped tremedously by "the rooms," sometimes it upsets me reading all the anti-12 step philosophy on this site. While I'm all for free thinking and speech, I think a great many people misunderstand what AA and other 12-step programs were/are intended to be.
AA has NEVER been a money-making enterprise. It is true that initial members made some money off of initial publications and such and in hindsight that is against tradition. Furthermore, there may be treatment center, for and not-for profit, abusive and non-abusive, who borrow the AA philosophy, in whole or in part. AA cannot and does not endorse these programs as it maintains autonomy. By the same token, because of its policy of non-affiliation, it cannot condemn them either.
Since each group is autonomous and AA is full of alcoholics, who, like other people, can be selfish and egotistical, it is true that a group can pass down thinking and suggestions you might not agree with. But the wonderful thing about AA is its diversity. It upsets me to hear that people say "AA told me this" and "AA told me that" because it seems they are referring to a specific member or group of AA, not AA as a whole. There are some 12-step groups in my area, that, quite frankly, I do not attend because I don't agree with the way of living generally condoned by the majority of the group members. That's fine. They've got their program, I've got mine.
AA does not demand you believe anything. I've known Buddhists, Christians, Jews, agnostics, atheists and probably people from a million different other religions who have gotten sober. Even what is written in the literature is but a mere suggestion. If anyone in AA tries to bully you into their way of living sober, my advice is RUN! You don't have to do anything.
I don't agree with everything I hear in the rooms. I don't have to. I take what I want and leave the rest.
By the same token, I have no objections to people finding ways other than the 12 steps to get sober or merely live a happy life. But when I hear people say that AA is this way or that way, I feel I owe it to the addicted individual who may one day find "the rooms," to say that AA and other 12-step programs are what you make it.
I'll also say this (and this is only for me). The 12 steps helped me a LOT more than Elan!
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Moore on 2004-02-24 10:00 ]
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I don't have a problem with money with AA. My problem is more with the fundamentals of it. I'm glad you believe it helped you. I really mean that, but there are quite a few of us who believe it serves a much more subverted purpose. The whole way it began (modeled almost identically after The Oxford Group) and WHO began it (Bill Wilson was a certified lunatic!)give me the creeps in the first place AND it seems to be a place where people like Miller Newton (narcissists) flourish. They have a steady stream of new victims to manipulate. It happens WAY more often than you think. I don't want to get into one of those AA is good/bad debates, but if you're really interested in why so many people seem to be upset with AA....go to the Orange Papers website I posted before. Pay particular attention to the chapter on the Religious Roots of AA. Interesting reading.
http://www.orange-papers.org/menu1.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/menu1.html)
I just pulled this off that site, thought it was hysterical.
And just when you think you've heard it all, it gets worse.
Ann W. Smith, M.S., C.A.C., has written a "recovery" book for "Adult Grandchildren of Alcoholics" -- "Grandchildren of Alcoholics: another generation of co-dependency". Now you can waste your life in meetings, work Bill's 12 Steps, and confess everything to strangers because Grandpa liked his moonshine. :rofl:
What kind of humanism expresses its reluctance to sacrifice military casualties by devastating the civilian economy of its adversary for decades to come?
Henry Kissinger
[ This Message was edited by: cayohueso on 2004-02-24 11:18 ]
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AGOA? That's pretty bizarre. I would think that anyone significantly impacted by a grandparent's drinking would just go to ACOA. But hey, God bless her if it helps her.
I will look at those papers online. By the way, I agree with you that Bill Wilson was, to say the least, disturbed. He was notorious for "13th-stepping" newcomers and never really was a true member of AA. Even his official AA bio states he was never really a member. But he did pass down a gift to a lot of people.
I once had a discussion with a very long-term member who had heard Bill speak. She said he was really flat and monotone and did a nice imitation of him.
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My main problem with it is that it is a virtual breeding ground for wannabe gurus and the potential for abuse of that is staggering. I think a lot of people in AA are truly looking for a solution to their 'problems' and are not harboring a hidden agenda, BUT......there are so many people that DO abuse it and the entire principals that it was founded on were from a cult. That's where the mind control comes in. Most believers of AA say that there is no mind control, you're free to believe what you want or walk out at any time yadda yadda yadda. In THEORY that may be true but we all know in PRACTICE how AA looks at those who "try to find an easier, softer way".
I hope you do read over that site. It's long, but I'd be interested to hear what you think.The worst government is the most moral. One composed of cynics
is often very tolerant and human. But when fanatics are on top,
there is no limit to oppression.
--H.L. Mencken
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The main thing I dislike about AA is its claim that it is the only way.
My $0.02,
Mindi
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I read over some parts of the site. To be honest, I sympathize with a lot of it. But some parts really generalize about what members do or do not do.
I have always carried a small resentment toward people who called me a "dry drunk" the first time I tried to get sober for dating a girl in my first year of sobriety. Although not responsible for my relapse, they sure didn't give me confidence to stay sober. Of course, at the time, I had no concept of how to treat a woman, but that's another story.
Yes, there are A LOT of "gurus" in 12-step programs and a ton of egos. Personally, I've done too many fucked up things in sobriety to ever label myself an angel and don't aspire to guru status. I don't have too many "program friends" in my home group, because I generally go there for a good meeting and little else. The vast majority of my friends are the softer and gentler type outside my home group. I also have many friends outside the rooms.
I also serve on a committee that puts on an annual conference for young people in recovery. Through this conference, we try to carry a message of love and service and little else. Of course, being young people, some sicker members pass on alternative forms of "love" and "service" at the conference, but those who take it seriously are good, conscientious members.
The program is not the only way. Those who treat it like a cult are short-changing themselves and others.
I once had a sponsor who told me, "The majority of the people in the program are dry drunks." I'm not sure if I agree with this but he definitely had a point. I like to work my program and tell others to butt out.
Cayohuesto, you are right, the potential for abuse is staggering. But the same is true for the world. The potential of abuse is staggering everywhere. Just a few weeks ago, I fired my therapist whom I felt was abusing his position. We all must be responsible for ourselves and ensure we do not abuse. I try to stick my hand out to a newcomer and ensure they do not leave disillusioned, feeling they have to return to their compulsions.
I know I've basically broke the anonymity tradition by posting this, but I am not connecting myself to any specific fellowship. Still, I felt the need to speak up for my own viewpoints.
My advice to anyone trying to get sober is to find your own way. Maia Szalavitz wrote a great book called "Recovery Options."
The best meeting I ever went to was a gay meeting I mistakenly stumbled into while vacationing in Los Angeles (and I'm not even gay). I heard spirituality and a lack of judgement and that made my day.
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On 2004-02-24 11:54:00, Cleopatra2U wrote:
"The main thing I dislike about AA is its claim that it is the only way.
My $0.02,
Mindi
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Mindi,
Any individual who told you that couldn't have spoken for AA, only themselves. Personally, I think they were full of it. I know of a lot of people who have gotten sober... through AA, RR, Christianity, Straight Edge or just on their own.
Pete
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I've got more than a few problems with this cult that has endeared itself to so many people. Cayohuesa has elaborated on a few of the major ones, but I want to bring up a couple more: The fallacy that a person must "hit bottom" and the almost complete monopoly on treatment options that these cults enjoy. Like I said in another post, the book "12 Spells and 12 Superstitions" teaches the potential oldcomer, I mean sponsor, to encourage anyone who is having a hard time swallowing Stepcraft to continue drinking/drugging until they "hit bottom" and see the glorious light of the almighty Program. I believe this has caused much needless suffering. When you combine those kind of instructions with Stepcraft's insistence that they are the "only" way, and add a person's ignorance of other treatment possibilities (an ignorance reinforced by the Stepcult's infiltration of and virtual monopoly on the treatment industry), you have a recipe for suffering or death, in which case the deceased will serve as a grim reminder of what happens to those who don't "do it the NA way". You see, when people are at the point where they are seeking help for addiction, they are generally in a confused and vulnerable state. Mistakenly believing groupsters to be "experts" on "recovery", these people, upon realizing the bullshit nature of Stepcraft, may still believe some of the other lies the Stepcult has to offer, and believe that their demise is inevitable because they can't or won't follow what they have been led to believe is the "only" alternative to "jails, institutions and death". The Stepcult is rigged with nifty little self-fulfilling prophecies and inherent contradictions--it cares only for it's own growth and nothing for it's individual members. It often harms those it claims to be designed to help.
_"Stay out, 12-Stepper, your lies are not welcome here"________________
Your sponsor says it's OK for you to drink
[ This Message was edited by: RTP2003 on 2004-02-24 12:16 ]
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Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles.
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 174. There lives more faith, in honest doubt,
Believe me, than in half the creeds.
Alfred Lord Tennyson
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Cayo,
I know that quote. What I think Bill was saying was that those who choose to practice the AA program as their way to get sober had better take it seriously or they will die of alcoholism.
Also the 12 steps are one person's view. If I'm not mistaken, Bill practically wrote that book by himself.
Back in the 1950s, when the 12&12 was written, there were not the choices that exist today with alcohol treatment. AA back then WAS essentially the only way, or at least the only widespread way for alcoholics.
AA is for desperate people, plain and simple. Yes, the degrees of desperation vary, but you've got to be pretty desperate to be willing to work the 12 steps thoroughly and go to all those meetings. AA is not for irresponsible drinkers, it's for alcoholics. Those who are drinking irresponsibly can merely stop.
The part of the 12 & 12 that was referenced about "go out and drink" was the suggestion in the first step that states that if you don't think you're an alcoholic, try some controlled drinking, bearing in mind what we've told you about alcoholism. How else is someone going to figure out whether they're an alcoholic?
Bear in mind, I'm not interested in an argument, but I do believe AA is sometimes unnecessarily bashed for the foolishness of some members. I mean we didn't tear down Fornits when Nazi came along, did we Cayo? LOL
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On 2004-02-24 12:16:00, Peter Moore wrote:
"Cayo,
Also the 12 steps are one person's view. If I'm not mistaken, Bill practically wrote that book by himself.
This is part of the problem. The Big Book was written almost solely by a lunatic. Everything AA is comes from the Big Book. It's quoted constantly and consistently in every meeting, it's required reading etc. etc. All this, an entire movement (what I call a religion) based on the self-serving rantings of a madman :question: :question: :exclaim:
Back in the 1950s, when the 12&12 was written, there were not the choices that exist today with alcohol treatment. AA back then WAS essentially the only way, or at least the only widespread way for alcoholics.
It's still that way now. If someone goes to therapy, gets arrested or whatever...the "suggesstion", sentence etc. is AA or some derivative. AA and it's clones are just about the only "approved method of treatment".
AA is for desperate people, plain and simple. Yes, the degrees of desperation vary, but you've got to be pretty desperate to be willing to work the 12 steps thoroughly and go to all those meetings.
And therein lies the danger.
Bear in mind, I'm not interested in an argument, but I do believe AA is sometimes unnecessarily bashed for the foolishness of some members. I mean we didn't tear down Fornits when Nazi came along, did we Cayo? LOL
"
I don't want to argue either (I ain't playin' the Nazi game :wink: ) and I can get fairly worked up about this because I believe so strongly in it. We may have to agree to leave it at that. Glad you feel it was helpful to you.
To say the drug war is a failure is like saying the Hindenburg was short a few fire extinguishers.
Carl Hiassen
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St. Pete Straight
early 80s
[ This Message was edited by: cayohueso on 2004-02-24 12:32 ]
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On 2004-02-24 12:01:00, RTP2003 wrote:
"I've got more than a few problems with this cult that has endeared itself to so many people. Cayohuesa has elaborated on a few of the major ones, but I want to bring up a couple more: The fallacy that a person must "hit bottom" and the almost complete monopoly on treatment options that these cults enjoy."
Actually it's the treatment centers who have taken the 12-step philosophy, not the 12-step organizations who have created the centers. There has never been a treatment center endorsed by AA.
>>>"Like I said in another post, the book "12 Spells and 12 Superstitions" teaches the potential oldcomer, I mean sponsor, to encourage anyone who is having a hard time swallowing Stepcraft to continue drinking/drugging until they "hit bottom" and see the glorious light of the almighty Program. I believe this has caused much needless suffering. When you combine those kind of instructions with Stepcraft's insistence that they are the "only" way,
Where does it state in any CONFERENCE-APPROVED program literature that they are the "only" way? In fact, Bill once wrote that it would be foolish to think they have a monopoly on the spiritual world, even alcoholism... or something to that effect.
>>and add a person's ignorance of other treatment possibilities (an ignorance reinforced by the Stepcult's infiltration of and virtual monopoly on the treatment industry), you have a recipe for suffering or death, in which case the deceased will serve as a grim reminder of what happens to those who don't "do it the NA way".
Actually there hasn't been enough of a movement from members of other sobriety organizations to do it another way. But there are treatment places that do it other ways. Narconon certainly does, for one. I don't endorse them, but I acknowledge their existence.
>>You see, when people are at the point where they are seeking help for addiction, they are generally in a confused and vulnerable state. Mistakenly believing groupsters to be "experts" on "recovery", these people, upon realizing the bullshit nature of Stepcraft, may still believe some of the other lies the Stepcult has to offer, and believe that their demise is inevitable because they can't or won't follow what they have been led to believe is the "only" alternative to "jails, institutions and death".
That's if you keep drinking and using, not if you find a better treatment option.
>>The Stepcult is rigged with nifty little self-fulfilling prophecies and inherent contradictions--it cares only for it's own growth and nothing for it's individual members. It often harms those it claims to be designed to help.
Individuals certainly harm others. But the programs philosophy doesn't harm them.
_"Stay out, 12-Stepper, your lies are not welcome here"________________
Your sponsor says it's OK for you to drink
That's silly. This is a mature debate.
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OK, I really don't want to get any further into this because it's pointless. Don't be so naive/patronizing (can't figure out which) as to say that AA has not introduced itself into treatment centers. Yes, we've all read the literature stating that AA does not endorse or support etc. etc. It SAYS that, but htere are no real options presented anyone OTHER than AA or clone. I don't give a shit HOW it ended up the only recourse or HOW it ended up in treatment centers, the fact that it STILL is just about the only game in town, really pisses me off. In virtually every single treatment center the aftercare is GO TO AA. The steps are taught in almost every single center. Most of the others are "faith-based" which really is no different. This all bothers me so much because it is MY belief that the BASIC PHILOSOPHY OF AA IS FLAWED AND POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS. It was developed by a man who had an insatiable need for glory and adulation. This program is BUILT to feed right into those kinds of agendas. You end up with a few thousand Miller Newtons running around these rooms and it makes me sick. Again, that's MY belief.
Don't even get me started on CultsAnon, oooops...I mean Narcanon.India Indicas, Mr. Peabody?
-- Sherman
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On 2004-02-24 12:16:00, Peter Moore wrote
Also the 12 steps are one person's view. If I'm not mistaken, Bill practically wrote that book by himself.
OK, let me get this straight. You agree that Bill Wilson was pretty much a degenerate and a nutjob right?? (and I ain't talking you're run of the mill village idiot, I'm talking fucking certifiable) You agree that the Big Book is AAs Bible, right?? You agree that the Big Book is basically steps to aid one in dealing with the perils of life, right???
DO YOU NOT SEE A PROBLEM WITH THIS :question: :question: We did not inherit this land from our ancestors, we borrow it form our children.
Haida
_________________
St. Pete Straight
early 80s
[ This Message was edited by: cayohueso on 2004-02-24 13:00 ]
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Cayo,
Perhaps you're right about AA introducing itself -- at least in part. I'd like to think most of it was an individual's honest desire to help others, but it could be something else with some people.
Also, I would have no problem if other organizations created treatment centers. Hopefully they'd have a lot of checks and balances so they'd be credible and humane.
I would never be patronizing, Cayo. I respect you way too much and consider you a friend after that stuff on the Elan forum.
Pete
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On 2004-02-24 12:36:00, Peter Moore wrote:
Actually it's the treatment centers who have taken the 12-step philosophy, not the 12-step organizations who have created the centers. There has never been a treatment center endorsed by AA.
**Most of the taxpayer-funded and HMO-approved treatment centers are founded by and staffed by Stepcultists. It is not erroneous to view them as indoctrination centers. 12 Step meetings were required at the detox facilities I am familiar with. AA/NA don't endorse particular treatment centers per se, but that is a convenient legal fiction to enable them to swallow tax dollars and insurance money while recruiting new cultists. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....**
Where does it state in any CONFERENCE-APPROVED program literature that they are the "only" way?
**Now this is a good example of NA loopholes and doublespeak. Every meeting I ever attended had the words "only through this Program" said aloud at some point. Another answer Steppies give when confronted about their claim to a monopoly on recovery is to say that people who break addictions without AA/NA weren't 'real' addicts.**
>>
Actually there hasn't been enough of a movement from members of other sobriety organizations to do it another way. .
**I think you are absolutely right
Individuals certainly harm others. But the programs philosophy doesn't harm them.
**Many of the Stepcult's concepts debase freewill and human dignity in and of themselves. The program's nature, structure, and growth inherently lends itself to abuse and corruption by unscrupulous individuals, in addition to the many other flaws in it.
_"Stay out, 12-Stepper, your lies are not welcome here"________________
Your sponsor says it's OK for you to drink
That's silly.
This is a mature debate.
**No, it's not silly . You cultists have done enough harm, you road-to-hell-paving good intentionists. Ask anyone who's been court-ordered to your Indoctrination Centers and Groupthink Sessions. Ask people who have lost family, friends, and freedom due to both your cult and it's members.
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On 2004-02-24 12:58:00, cayohueso wrote:
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On 2004-02-24 12:16:00, Peter Moore wrote
Also the 12 steps are one person's view. If I'm not mistaken, Bill practically wrote that book by himself.
OK, let me get this straight. You agree that Bill Wilson was pretty much a degenerate and a nutjob right?? (and I ain't talking you're run of the mill village idiot, I'm talking fucking certifiable) You agree that the Big Book is AAs Bible, right?? You agree that the Big Book is basically steps to aid one in dealing with the perils of life, right???
DO YOU NOT SEE A PROBLEM WITH THIS :question: :question: We did not inherit this land from our ancestors, we borrow it form our children.
Haida
_________________
St. Pete Straight
early 80s
[ This Message was edited by: cayohueso on 2004-02-24 13:00 ]"
Cayo,
I don't see Bill as all good or all bad. He was just a very imperfect human being and an alcoholic. That doesn't mean he had nothing good to say.
BTW, I mentioned that he wrote almost all of the 12 & 12, not the Big Book. I don't know who all wrote the Big Book, but I'm pretty sure he wrote several chapters.
Bill had a lot of checks and balances too before the first edition of the Big Book was published.
Also, I don't think AA groups or members follow the Big Book enough these days. If they did, there would be fewer gripes with AA. There's even a line in the book that states "To be helpful is our only aim." The trouble is, too many people in AA want to redefine what the Big Book says and that's where the potential for egotism and guruism comes in.
I realize many will never like AA and I respect that. But I also feel I have an obligation to a newcomer who can't get sober to at least pass on my 2 cents.
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By the way, I am vehemently opposed to court-ordered AA meetings. But that's just me.
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On 2004-02-24 13:13:00, Peter Moore wrote:
"By the way, I am vehemently opposed to court-ordered AA meetings. But that's just me."
Yeah, it must be just you. It seems to me that all the other Steppies have pretty much reached a favorable consensus on court-ordered meetings.
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On 2004-02-24 13:05:00, RTP2003 wrote:
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On 2004-02-24 12:36:00, Peter Moore wrote:
Actually it's the treatment centers who have taken the 12-step philosophy, not the 12-step organizations who have created the centers. There has never been a treatment center endorsed by AA.
**Most of the taxpayer-funded and HMO-approved treatment centers are founded by and staffed by Stepcultists. It is not erroneous to view them as indoctrination centers. 12 Step meetings were required at the detox facilities I am familiar with. AA/NA don't endorse particular treatment centers per se, but that is a convenient legal fiction to enable them to swallow tax dollars and insurance money while recruiting new cultists. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....**
Where does it state in any CONFERENCE-APPROVED program literature that they are the "only" way?
**Now this is a good example of NA loopholes and doublespeak. Every meeting I ever attended had the words "only through this Program" said aloud at some point. Another answer Steppies give when confronted about their claim to a monopoly on recovery is to say that people who break addictions without AA/NA weren't 'real' addicts.**
>>
Actually there hasn't been enough of a movement from members of other sobriety organizations to do it another way. .
**I think you are absolutely right
Individuals certainly harm others. But the programs philosophy doesn't harm them.
**Many of the Stepcult's concepts debase freewill and human dignity in and of themselves. The program's nature, structure, and growth inherently lends itself to abuse and corruption by unscrupulous individuals, in addition to the many other flaws in it.
_"Stay out, 12-Stepper, your lies are not welcome here"________________
Your sponsor says it's OK for you to drink
That's silly.
This is a mature debate.
**No, it's not silly . You cultists have done enough harm, you road-to-hell-paving good intentionists. Ask anyone who's been court-ordered to your Indoctrination Centers and Groupthink Sessions. Ask people who have lost family, friends, and freedom due to both your cult and it's members.
"
RTP, I can't speak for NA. I have rarely attended there and don't get a lot out of their meetings. I know a lot of people in AA who say the same.
I'm sure there have been some very cruel AA members who have hurt people immensely. But cruel people are everywhere. I know that I was helped and for that I'm grateful.
I'll respond to more later. Got work to do.
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I'm not judging him as good or bad as far as a person...but as far as a person from whom I would voluntarily choose to take life advice from???? I think not. I'm not saying that he didn't have anything good to say, but DAMN...I mean, it's not like he just wrote a few haikus or something. This is a book that people are expected to live their lives by.
The weavers of linen and hempen cloth, ... may exercise their trades without paying any fine.
-- Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations (chapter X, part II) notes:
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On 2004-02-24 13:17:00, Peter Moore wrote:
But cruel people are everywhere.
yes, cruel people are everywhere, but AA gives them a place where it's very easy for that cruelty to flourish and to even be disguised as "help" and "love". The newcomer is in such a vulnerable state and the whole sponsor, 'group as a higher power' thing has SO much potential for abuse. Yes, it can happen in any situation, but few 'treatments' seem to be as fertile ground for the abuse of it as AA is in my opinion. It was designed by a guy who LOVED the attention and control over people...it can't HELP but be geared towards favoring those types of personalities.I am married, not Buried !
-- Steve Webb
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OK, I see where you're coming from. I strongly support a group conscience prevailing and I've always opposed abuses of power. I belong to a very large group (usual attendance is about 70-100 people) and I am rarely asked to serve at a group level in that particular group. Maybe it's because I've always marched to the beat of my own drum. I have a sponsor but he is not my master.
I hope you realize that not everyone in AA is an enemy or a dangerous person, even if you oppose a lot about the program.
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Yes, I realize that. I think most people in AA are there for the right reasons, I just think that most of them are ignorant to the facts. I don't mean that in a disrespectful way....I think they truly want help and this is pretty much the only game in town and it seems to work so well etc. etc.
I don't mean to come across bitchy...I really don't. I realize I tend to get my ire up over this. It's just that AA seems to be sold as this nice, helpful organization with all these good intentions (and I believe most of the REAL people in there are well-intentioned)but it's a breeding ground for control freaks and wannabe gurus and it's dangerous....even on a small level like a sponsor/sponsee relationship. A sponsor has SO much control over someones life and I don't think the majority of them are qualified to oversee the life of a cockroach.
I appreciate the respect and it's mutual, but we're definitely not going to agree on this.Hear me people: We now have to deal with another race - small and feeble when our fathers first met them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possessions is a disease with them. These people have made many rules which the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
Chief Sitting Bull, speaking at the Powder River Conference, 1877
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I don't think every individual in AA/NA is my enemy, but the organization as a whole really bothers me, as does the attitude of many in AA/NA I've encountered both in and out of meetings. A lot of these people put the cult first and foremost, and if they are in a position to make trouble for you (probation officer, neighborhood busybody, employer/supervisor), will do so, unless you are willing to make the cult first and foremost in your life also.
Also, the idea of anonymity in these programs is a joke. The stepsters know the potential of their power, and WILL use it to coerce/blackmail. Of course, this is "an individual who isn't working a good program" who would do something like that, not the Cult at large. Yeah. Uh-huh. Right.
_________________
Your sponsor says it's OK for you to drink
[ This Message was edited by: RTP2003 on 2004-02-24 13:51 ]
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On 2004-02-24 13:49:00, cayohueso wrote:
A sponsor has SO much control over someones life and I don't think the majority of them are qualified to oversee the life of a cockroach.
<
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
THAT is very funny. Yes, I agree with you on that. Nobody's life should be overseen. If you want that, you should be in a hospital. I chose my sponsor very carefully.
RTP, you must have had some very negative experiences with some members and groups. I'm sorry it was like that for you, because no one deserves that.
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Whoops.. that was me. Forgot to punch in my name.
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This is the kind of crap I hate---"Oh, you must have had a negative experience with some members or groups" implying that I just happened across some bad groups that were misinterpreting their program, and there are really some great groups out there....BULLSHIT. The whole Stepcult is fucked up--granted some groups may be more so than others, but the entire movement is founded on fiction, and the disinformation they spread is downright dangerous to people looking for help in dealing with their addictions.
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http://www.aadeprogramming.com/kevin.html (http://www.aadeprogramming.com/kevin.html)
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On 2004-02-25 23:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://www.aadeprogramming.com/kevin.html"
While I would never dream of censoring anyone... that Web site (which I have read numerous times) can be dangerous to those with long-term sobriety. I have a friend who, while in a rut and disillusioned with the program, looked at "AA Deprogramming," basically agreed with it all and went out and drank and became unbelievably miserable. His life went down the toilet. Thank God he is now sober and happy again.
Look at Audrey Kishline of MM. Some argue that she had left the MM program and gone to AA when she crashed head-on while drunk and killed those two people. I would argue that "working the program" of MM for all those years advanced the progression of her disease to no end and made it a helluva lot more difficult to get sober.
If you claim AA kills, I would counter that "AA Deprogrammers" also kill and are MUCH more dangerous. The rationalization system of many alcoholics is unbelievable and if you tell them what they want to hear, many will run with it. I've watched too many people sink their lives while fooling themselves into thinking they were OK.
And please, if it's founded on fiction, why are there so many sober, happy and productive people (myself included). There are over 2 million members.
You're entitled to disagree. Look, I'm don't go to meetings for my health and they're not always fun. If there was an "easier softer way" at the outset, I'd have taken it. But I wouldn't have near what I have today and I'm virtually certain I would have continued drinking, probably recklessly.
The Big Book clearly states "To be helpful is our only aim." This talk of a "stepcult" is pure bullshit and offends me, quite frankly, because I have devoted many years of my life to trying to help others through the power of the 12 steps. Did you see the A&E special back in 2000? Rather flattering, don't you think?
But in reference to that Web page, I agree that nobody should be forced to attend AA. I will also sign anyone's court card, regardless of whether they want to stay or not. There shouldn't even be court cards.
I am a born rebel. I disagree with the philosophy of most political organizations and as a former member of Amway and Equinox and an attempted recruit of the International Church of Christ, I DESPISE cults. What happened at places like Straight and Elan is tragic. There is nothing more evil than stealing someone's life and innocence. But the 12 steps are not part of the problem.
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Peter, please read the last two letters on this page:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters.html)
then read this:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-addmonst.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-addmonst.html)
It best explains my response to your post.
here's three more
http://www.morerevealed.com/articles/checklst.htm (http://www.morerevealed.com/articles/checklst.htm)
http://www.morerevealed.com/articles/kirton.htm (http://www.morerevealed.com/articles/kirton.htm)
http://www.morerevealed.com/articles/ther.htm (http://www.morerevealed.com/articles/ther.htm)
I believe the steps are dangerous. I also believe that your friend was heavily influenced by the self-fulfilling prophecy that IS AA. In MY opinion, that had much more to do with his despair than anything else. Once I realize that I was NOT powerless over alcohol, I also realized that it meant that I didn't ever have to pick up another drink in my life. From now on, when the shit hits the fan in my life, I can make a decision to get trashed, or not to....it's really quite as simple as that. Everyone has the ability to control their hands. If drinking has effected your life negatively, DO NOT PICK UP A DRINK. I know you can't see that right now. Hope you're able to sometime in the future.
AA may have it's purpose as a social club and if it makes someone feel better to be around similarly idealed folk, great....but NO ONE will ever convice me that the basic premise of those steps is not about control over people. It began with the Oxford Group, passed to Bill Wilson and now the cancer has spread worldwide.
I'm not telling anyone NOT to go to AA....I just want them to know that there ARE alternatives and there are definitely different opinions than the ones espoused by true believers.
Understand that legal and illegal are political, and often arbitrary,
categorizations; use and abuse are medical, or clinical, distinctions.
--Abbie Hoffman
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thought we could use this...copied it from AADeprogramming.
NEW RECOVERY GROUP
Recover From Twelve-Step Groups
We have a new thirteen-step program to help you recover from the evil influences of too many twelve-step recovery group meetings:
1. Admit that you are powerless over twelve-step meetings -- that your life has become unmanageable. Scream and pass out.
2. Come to believe that only Santa Claus can restore you to sanity.
3. Make a decision to give all of your problems to Santa Claus, as we understand him.
4. Turn your will and your mind over to the care of Santa Claus. They were worthless anyway. Also stick him with those pesky problems.
5. Make a searching and fearless inventory of your garage. You won't believe the junk you will find in there.
6. Confess to everyone that you can't sing, you can't dance, your butt is too fat, and you have bad breath.
7. Be entirely ready to have Santa Claus remove all of those defects.
8. Write a letter to Santa Claus, humbly begging him to fix all of those shortcomings.
9. Make a list of all of the people you have pissed off.
10. Go piss them off again.
11. Continue to inventory your garage, and when you find that you are hoarding some really useless junk, promptly admit it.
12. Seek, through your cell phone, to maintain constant contact with Santa Claus, as we understand him. If you can't get him, call a psychic hotline.
13. Make twenty copies of this letter, put your name at the bottom, and send them to all of your friends.
"I predict, Sir, that you will die either by hanging or of some vile disease."
"That all depends, sir, upon whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
--Disraeli to Gladstone
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More humor:
A Vision for You
...Two days later, a future fellow of Anonymous Alcoholism stared glassily at the strangers beside his bed. "Who are you fellows, and why this private room? I was always in a ward before."
Said one of the visitors, "We're giving you a treatment for alcoholism."
Hopelessness was written large on the man's face as he replied, "Oh, but that's no use. Nothing would fix me. I'm a goner. The last three times, I got drunk on the way home from here. I'm afraid to go out the door. I can't understand it."
Asked one of the visitors, "Can you move your right hand?"
With a puzzled look on his face, the man tried it and discovered that he could.
Asked one of the visitors, as he offered a glass to the man, "Can you pick this up with your right hand, and put it to your mouth?"
The man tried it. "Why, yes, I can," said the man.
One of the visitors filled the glass with whiskey, and handed it to the man, and asked, "Can you use your right hand to lift this glass to your mouth, and drink all of this?"
The man discovered that he could.
One of the visitors filled the glass with whiskey again, and handed it to the man, and asked, "Can you use your left hand to lift this glass to your mouth, and drink all of this?"
The man discovered that he could do that, too.
Said one of the visitors, "That explains it. That is what is happening to you on the way home from here. At least one of your hands is lifting glasses of whiskey to your mouth, and you are drinking the whiskey. That is why you are getting drunk."
Said the man, "This is amazing. No one has ever been able to explain it to me so clearly before. I want to join your church right now."
The visitors thought they noticed something different about him already. He had begun to have a spiritual experience.
The sadist cannot stand the separation of the public and the private; nor can he grant to others the mystery of their personality, the validity of their inner self...in order for him to feel his maximum power, he wants the world to be peopled with concrete manipulatable objects...
-- ERNEST BECKER, The Structure of Evil, 1968.
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A great example of the profound insight offered by Stepcults.
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In every cult I've ever seen, there's been some people who deny "bad stuff" ever happened. (Incidentally, this includes Elan.)
Every scenario described by Agent Orange is something I legitimately think probably has happened or can happen. But one needs to be courageous and free one's mind and think independently -- not give in to dogma. If, by the time someone has five years or so of sobriety, they don't learn to use their brain, their stupidity should be condemned and their consequence should be their own thinking.
Use your brain in AA, that's my advice. Need a sponsor? Choose carefully. Isn't working out? Fire 'em or just stop calling. Need a home group? Likewise. Someone bombarding you with unsolicited advice? Tell them to stop taking your inventory or just limit your conversations with them to pleasantries. Nine times out of 10, they'll leave you alone. I've done all these things and it's worked.
Like most of those he criticizes, Agent Orange lumps together people in AA and generalizes. While he has some good points, he seems unfairly prejudiced.
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On 2004-03-02 07:58:00, Peter Moore wrote:
"In every cult I've ever seen, there's been some people who deny "bad stuff" ever happened. (Incidentally, this includes Elan.)
Every scenario described by Agent Orange is something I legitimately think probably has happened or can happen. But one needs to be courageous and free one's mind and think independently -- not give in to dogma. If, by the time someone has five years or so of sobriety, they don't learn to use their brain, their stupidity should be condemned and their consequence should be their own thinking.
Well, that's part of the problem. AA is geared towards people NOT thinking for themselves.
Use your brain in AA, that's my advice. Need a sponsor? Choose carefully. Isn't working out? Fire 'em or just stop calling. Need a home group? Likewise. Someone bombarding you with unsolicited advice? Tell them to stop taking your inventory or just limit your conversations with them to pleasantries. Nine times out of 10, they'll leave you alone. I've done all these things and it's worked.
Beg to differ with that. Most of the time if you try to do what you've suggested, you're met with things like, "you're in denial, or Hey, I've got a lot more time than you, who do YOU think you should be listening to, or that's your druggie talking"
Like most of those he criticizes, Agent Orange lumps together people in AA and generalizes. While he has some good points, he seems unfairly prejudiced.
"
He's not talking about the people of AA. He's talking about the entire structure of it and how it is set up by and for people who love control!! If people want to go to AA for the fellowship, great, but I hope they realize what a vulnerable position they are putting themselves in. Alcoholics are a ripe group for people that crave power.The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest possible limits. ... and [when] the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.
-- St. George Tucker, Judge of the Virginia Supreme Court 1803
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As a Atheist I am put off by writings in AA texts like
......Let's look first at the case of the one who says he won't believe - the belligerent one. He is in a state of mind which can be described only as savage........
12x12 Step 2 Page 25
Passages like these are just not acceptable today and if the modern program is going to continue using them then their will be anti AA feelings.
Much of the literature needs to be rewritten
Guest
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I follow the 12 steps. That is... Jim Goad's (http://http://www.jimgoad.net/) 12 steps*:
1. We admitted that our addictions were really fucking us up.
2. Came to believe that since we started them, only we could stop them.
3. Made a decision to follow our gut instincts as we understood them.
4. Didn't bullshit ourselves about our many flaws.
5. Having admitted our flaws, we kept them to ourselves - they're nobody else's business.
6. Were entirely ready to argue with anyone who disagreed.
7. Filled with self-respect, we did nothing humbly.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and realized that most of them deserved it.
9. Paid all our police fines, then burned all our bridges.
10. Continued to be ruthlessly honest with ourselves and admitted all our wrongs - to ourselves.
11. Trusted ourselves and only ourselves with what's best for us.
12. Having assumed full responsibility for our lives, we weren't foolish enough to try to change anyone else - first, it's a losing proposition, and second, we couldn't care less.
*From "Answer Me" (http://http://www.amazon.com/o/redirect?%5Fencoding=UTF8&path=tg%2Fdetail%2F-%2F1873176031%2Fref%3Dcm%5Ftaf%5Ftitle%5Ffeatured&tag=tellafriend-20), Vol. 1, No. 1
_________________
"Learn from your mistakes so that one day you can repeat them precisely."
-Trevor Goodchild
[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-29 19:29 ]
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The reason I liked James Frey's book A Million Little Pieces, despite the controversy, is because he thought the powerlessness stuff was bullshit as well as the need for cultic intervention. Basically, Hazleden gave him a warm, safe place to get over withdrawals etc. and come to terms, but he didn't go for all the 12 step shit and idea of powerlessness.
But I do think that owning up to hurting others is important if you want to keep them in your life. I'm not talking about a faux pas you made when youwere drunk or juiced. I mean really hurting your loved ones, stealing from them to support your habit etc. Not being there for your kids, etc.
By the way, I saw this program on the news last night about some rich Malibu socialite that claims to be cured of alcoholism based on treatment from a Malibu center. (This center says it cures, not just treats).It totally pissed me off because she talked about overcoming it and having replacement vices but she could afford a chef, going to a spa-like center overlooking the most expensive piece of ocean front property in America, doing yoga and taking breaks and having a trainer get in her shape... She was the model for recovery and I'm thinking this is unrealistic bullshit. What about people who can't afford yoga, personal trainers, spa treatments, luxury clinics... she is NOT the model for recovery. It pissed me off. Man if that's the only way to recover, everyone else is fucked.
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"cured" of alcoholism. Ha. What a joke. You can't cure something that isn't a disease to begin with.
Anyone see this season of South Park? They did a wonderfully scathing episode about 12 step.
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12 step programs just provide
a dedicated audience so speakers
can embellish their naughty
episodes to the hilt.
That is all that happened to
that author, he was just embellishing
just like they do at meetings.
Except, perhaps he believed his
own shit, then published it.
Fool ...
Now, rich, wealthy fool!
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If ya want a good laugh check this site out.
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa ... dex11.html (http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2973/index11.html)
Someone took the time to write out 252 "AA sayings".
'Easy does it'- they must have missed that one.