Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on February 12, 2004, 11:26:00 AM
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Carey, does your attorney know what you think about him? Are you going to be Honest with Him? Tell him the Truth? Demand that he be held accountable?
Ginger, maybe you should know that Alan Kipnis Dumped his son at TB for 3 Years. He is one of those Rich/Dumbass parents that Carey so quickly condemns. Alan Kipnis currently helps WWASP with any potential WWASP legal problems in South Florida. He has communicated and supported WWASP to parents that are having doubts. He represented Lynne Pretzfeld, a WWASP witness, at a deposition a few weeks ago.
But, as she does need an attorney, I am sure when she was offered legal help from the Program, she took it. In time, we?ll know who?s paying for it. I do a little doubt, that Carey is footing the bill.
I?m sure his assocation with the Program is of little concern to Carey. Carey, is Carey?s only concern, as far as I have ever been able to tell.
Take Heed.
A Rich (not) Dumbass (so some say)
(also, stupid, gulliable, wish washy, lying, so she says)
Post Program Parent
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I don't blame anybody in danger of a default judgement from taking any lawyer they can get.
A default judgement isn't justice unless the person found in default is being deliberately obstructive of the legal process.
If they're just poor and stuck in another state, a default judgement is a travesty of justice and our system shouldn't allow it. In cases like this, indigence or near indigence on the part of the defendant should be grounds for a change of jurisdiction to the county of residence of the defendant----especially in cases where the laws don't vary too much from state to state, like defamation law.
However, justice and the law frequently barely have a nodding acquaintance.
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On 2004-02-12 08:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Carey, does your attorney know what you think about him? Are you going to be Honest with Him? Tell him the Truth? Demand that he be held accountable?
Ginger, maybe you should know that Alan Kipnis Dumped his son at TB for 3 Years. He is one of those Rich/Dumbass parents that Carey so quickly condemns. Alan Kipnis currently helps WWASP with any potential WWASP legal problems in South Florida. He has communicated and supported WWASP to parents that are having doubts. He represented Lynne Pretzfeld, a WWASP witness, at a deposition a few weeks ago.
But, as she does need an attorney, I am sure when she was offered legal help from the Program, she took it. In time, we?ll know who?s paying for it. I do a little doubt, that Carey is footing the bill.
I?m sure his assocation with the Program is of little concern to Carey. Carey, is Carey?s only concern, as far as I have ever been able to tell.
Take Heed.
A Rich (not) Dumbass (so some say)
(also, stupid, gulliable, wish washy, lying, so she says)
Post Program Parent
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Anon, what's it to you who Carey hires or doesn't hire? You mention he represented a Lynn Pretzfeld
in some deposition, but fail to mention the deposition was related to PURE and the lawsuit filed against them by WWASPS. (See PACER system for court record). Is THIS what bothers you? That Carey has an attorney that is not clueless?
:rofl:
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Anon,
Do you not reconize the hypocricsy?
Out of all of the attorneys available in Florida ,the woman has aquired an attorney who is a wwaspie.
Hellooooooo. Where is the honesty,integrity,the truthfulness.?
Where is the ACCOUNTABILITY?
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Anon,
Do you not reconize the hypocricsy?
Out of all of the attorneys available in Florida ,the woman has aquired an attorney who is a wwaspie.
Hellooooooo. Where is the honesty,integrity,the truthfulness.?
Where is the ACCOUNTABILITY?
HONESTY When did she lie? This has been an accusation made by many....yet no one has been able to provide an answer.
INTEGRITY Where and how has her integrity been lost? She has hired an attorney who is familiar with Sue and PURE....that tells me that she is not stupid. Remember this is is not a case invovling WWASP and survivors. This is a case that involves freedom of speech. From what I have gathered the depositions she was posting had not been sealed by the courts.
ACCOUNTABILITY Carey is all for accountability, she has said that over and over again. She has said that she is not for substituting one set of unregulated programs for yet another set of unregulated programs. She seems to have learned a lot about those that claim they are PURE and that their programs are not any better than those who they oppose.
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Anon,
Do you not reconize the hypocricsy?
Out of all of the attorneys available in Florida ,the woman has aquired an attorney who is a wwaspie.
Hellooooooo. Where is the honesty,integrity,the truthfulness.?
Where is the ACCOUNTABILITY?
HONESTY When did she lie? This has been an accusation made by many....yet no one has been able to provide an answer.
INTEGRITY Where and how has her integrity been lost? She has hired an attorney who is familiar with Sue and PURE....that tells me that she is not stupid. Remember this is is not a case invovling WWASP and survivors. This is a case that involves freedom of speech. From what I have gathered the depositions she was posting had not been sealed by the courts.
ACCOUNTABILITY Carey is all for accountability, she has said that over and over again. She has said that she is not for substituting one set of unregulated programs for yet another set of unregulated programs. She seems to have learned a lot about those that claim they are PURE and that their programs are any better than those who they oppose.
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Anon,
You neglected to mention the woman's HYPOCRISY!!!!
You are so uniformed.
If this wasnt so bad it could be funny! NOT!
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I thought your comments about honesty, integrity and accountability were the reason you were saying she is a hypocrit.
Elaborate then, how is she a hypocrit? Did she hire someone who has abused children? It seems to me she just hired someone who knows what is going on.
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My experience of Carey is:
She frequently lies by practicing Data Drop out.
She admits to bits and pieces, but not the meat of the matter, until nailed to the wall.
She frequently lies by expressing her opinion of how something took place, as if it where a fact.
She frequently lies about individuals by expressing her opinion on their thoughts, actions and motives as if it is fact. She gets ideas in her head that immediately take the form of fact in her mind; and she expresses these thoughts as if they are truth; when all it often is, is her paranoid imagination at work.
If you want examples, just go back to last spring, and read over her posting. If you pay attention; and aren't to terribly determined to never find fault with the lady; you'll see plenty of proof for yourself.
Carey has been very adamant on this board that the parents who've sent their kids to wwasp programs ought to be held accountable. Just as accountable, as those who are guilty of the actual acts of brutality and neglect that she knows and admits take place in these programs.
She has been very demeaning toward these parents; calling them by various insulting names and accusing them of stupidity and selfishness.
As her lawyer is among those most committed to the program, one can't help but wonder how honest she intends to be with him.
Is her commitment to total honesty (yeah right) absolute enough for her to speak her mind when it might cost her something?
She has no concern when it might cost others dearly. Does she hold herself to the same standard she tries so hard to impose on others?
I think these are valid questions.
It also seems possible, *maybe* , she might encourage Ginger to hire the same attorney.
She might, *possiably* not tell Ginger the whole truth about who he is and how she found him.
Seems like Ginger *might* like to know.
As for me being bothered: Not at all. Doesn?t trouble me in the least; or even surprise me at this point. But it is a bit interesting and I think worth bringing up for discussion.
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This is pathetic! PURE sues Ginger (Fornits) and Carey Bock and now their supporters have the audacity to cry FOUL because they don't like Ms. Bock's choice for an attorney? Oh boo-hoo-hoo-hoo. You'all should mind your own business and stop whining about G & C's kick-ass attorneys.
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Whoz whining?
Just you Pal.
I personally, am not associated with PURE; nor any of the various legal entanglements.
As you point out, and I agree, Carey needs an attorney, and may "hire" whom she wishes.
There are people who might like to know just how entangled with the program various people are; as the program is a problem, in the view of many users on this board.
And it will do Mz Bock no harm to put herself in the shoes she has so often tried to force on others feet.
The questions put to her are valid; if the questions she has so hounded others with are; and in her view, they are; SO, the questions are valid.
If Ginger chooses to hire this same attorney, then that is her absolute right. She did ask, on another thread, just how the man was affiliated with wwasp; and so its reasonable to surmise she would like to know.
Nothing about any of this is whining; except you Pal.
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My experience of Carey is:
She frequently lies by practicing Data Drop out.
She admits to bits and pieces, but not the meat of the matter, until nailed to the wall.
She frequently lies by expressing her opinion of how something took place, as if it where a fact.
She frequently lies about individuals by expressing her opinion on their thoughts, actions and motives as if it is fact. She gets ideas in her head that immediately take the form of fact in her mind; and she expresses these thoughts as if they are truth; when all it often is, is her paranoid imagination at work.
You must be talking to the man in the mirror.
The questions put to her are valid; if the questions she has so hounded others with are; and in her view, they are; SO, the questions are valid.
What questions are you refering to that you say are valid?
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Ginger would *never* *ever* *ever* hire a WWASP-linked attorney.
She's got one famous for successfully suing programs like WWASP.
Why on earth would she want one who defends them, when she herself was a victim of treatment abuse?
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Sounds like Pure wasn't expecting Carey to hire an attorney that is SO FAMILIAR with the garbage the PURE began to defame WWASP on the internet forums. Now the tables have been turned. I don't know for sure, but the posters that oppose her attorney choice COULD be PUREists that are feeling the heat, big time. :wink:
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So why don't we all just shut up, and wait and see? Do you people ever stop speculating?
We'll find out when we find out..ain't nothing anyone can do about it...
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Anon,
No heat here. Just incredulous at the hypocrisy and lack of self respect.
How can one woman scream abuse of the teen help industry .Slander individuals (who have visited sites,have talked with hundreds of parents and kids who have had positive results),and then accept legal representation from a major player in promoting their cause.Remember this guy left his child at TB for yrs.He gives postive feedback of the program.
Is that not blantanly obvious to you?
Where is the integrity for what she says she stands for?
BTW The "garbage" put on the net by an individual who is being sued by the organization was/is TRUE.
It has been substantiated many, many,many times over.
They know it,it is about time you accept the truth. Stop hiding behind the lies.
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Who cares? :silly:
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How can one woman scream abuse of the teen help industry .Slander individuals (who have visited sites,have talked with hundreds of parents and kids who have had positive results),and then accept legal representation from a major player in promoting their cause.Remember this guy left his child at TB for yrs.He gives postive feedback of the program.
Let me help you to understand...I have learned a lot about the people involved on both sides of the fence. I also have more information on all of the players involved and I now know more than I ever did before.
Let me add, sometimes we get caught up in the hysteria of the moments and situations we find ourselves in. It is only when we can step back and remove ourselves from that hystaria and look at all of the facts in that given situation that we can find the truth.
I think I have a clearer understanding of what is and has been going on. I have heard what WWASP has to say, I have heard what PURE and the trekkers have to say, and I have heard from my own two sons.
I will say this, even though it will make a lot of people very mad, I have found WWASP and my own two sons to be far more credible than anyone associated with PURE.
I did have a terrible experience with Dundee. My boys rights and my rights were violated while at Dundee. Things did happen to them that should not have. But you know, I don't feel the need to over exagerate what they experienced just to protect PURE and just for revenge, as do trekkers.
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Who provided this detailed informatin?
Sounds like you have drunk the kool aide.
SAP! You should be ashamed of yourself.
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Anon you asked:
Who provided this detailed informatin?
Here is what has been provided by each party.
PURE/Trekkers have provided accusations, no proof.
Their accusations are thrown at anybody and everybody that questions them. Look Anon, you are even accusing me of drinking the "koolaid." Isn't that Trekkers term for being brainwashed? How have I been brainwashed? In a seminar, have I suffered diet deprivation, what? No, I have never been to a seminar and my diet has not changed, it is simply another accusation made that is false.
WWASP has provided sworn testimony from people who have lied. These people who have lied are the same people who are making the accusations against them(WWASP) and against me. I know I am innocent of any wrong doing. All I have ever done is tell what I know. I am being sued by PURE for that. I am being sued for telling about PURE and what was said in Sue Scheff's sworn statement. And believe you me, what I was telling had nothing to do with her children, it had to do with her lack of ethics and her lack of professionalism. I was sharing HER own WORDS.
MY BOYS have provided me with their experience, the truth, the good and the bad.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2004-02-15 08:49 ]
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You "sound" like you've been at the kool aid, Carey.
There is more than one way to skin a cat (or alter a person's thinking)and it isn't Always nesscarry to have them in a large group, stressed and hungery.
Your spilling out the same speil that the "stepford" parents do, in defence of their beloved Program; Its a little harsh; maybe; but does not rise to the level of abuse or neglect.
At least this is what it "sounds" like your saying.
LOTs of post program kids, would strenioulsy debate this with you.
LOTS of Post Program kids, claim to be victims and witnesses of clearly, seriously, abusive acts; and neglect.
You seem to be calling them all lying manipulators; based on what you've been told by the Program; and the fact your boys weren't personaly battered.
Kool Aid drinkers is an unfortunate term. I prefer the legions of Faithful. But there is a reason for it. Over and over, When folks who are unaffiliated with the Program, and so unaffected by the seminars, encounter a group or even an individual, who have done a seminar; the thought pops in their head; "They sound brain washed". People frequently think of the Stepford wives; and Jones Town, after an encounter with well programmed parents.
You are sounding the same.
Makes me think of Animal Farm.
The last page.
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You seem to be calling them all lying manipulators;
There you go, making things up. I have never said anything of the sort. However, if that is what you read into it, well not much I can do about that.
I am talking about PURE/Trekkers and those I have had experience with. All they have is each other and the stories they have come up with. If you are not either and you and your child have a case of abuse against WWASP, then do what you need to do. But if your case is wrapped up in with theirs, I feel sorry for you. They are not honest and truthful people.
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So, its just the Trekker's kids that are liars; according to you.
Being as Trekkers is a group of Parents who chose to believe their childern are telling the truth and so have chosen to try and do something about it; Your saying all their kids are lying; but the others aren't.
This -Seems- to be what your trying to say.
I'm sure you'll have yet another snappy comment.
Lets hear it. . .
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So, its just the Trekker's kids that are liars; according to you.
Being as Trekkers is a group of Parents who chose to believe their childern are telling the truth and so have chosen to try and do something about it; Your saying all their kids are lying; but the others aren't.
I am saying that Sue/PURE/Bozak/Amberly are liars.
If you stand by them then you stand by liars. That leads me to believe that the truth does not matter to you. If you can stand by these known liars who you have no strong bond with, at least not a bond like a parent has with a child, then I believe you could stand by your own child who may be lying.
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:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
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Carey, never attribute to malice that which can be readily explained by ignorance*.
I know some of these folks very well. They do not condone lying, especially lying about important things. They're good ppl, the ones I know. They just don't seem to believe what you're trying to tell them. I have to say that you sound just about the same when you allude to a distinction between WWASP and Dundee. We all know that Narvin and WWASP go way back. I hope you don't sincerely believe that Dundee was just a fluke.
* This definition: " lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified ", not any of the more insulting ones.Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other.
--James Madison
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
[ This Message was edited by: Antigen on 2004-02-16 06:14 ]
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Ginger, I know what I have experienced. I know what I know about Dundee, Trekkers, PURE, Scheff, Bozak, Amberly, Martha, Marti, the Colburns, Reese, et al, based on my own experience. That is what I know and that is what I can speak about.
I don't like the industry as a whole. Do I have the answers, NO. I don't claim to.
What I do know is, I am not the bad guy...although Trekkers would like to make me out to be. I have said from the beginning that I don't think the end justifies the means. Well, that holds true for Trekkers...THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS. If the means means lying, then something is not right about what they are doing. However, they would like to cover that part up. HMMM...haven't they accused others of trying to cover things up?
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Gee Carey -
You've hurt my feelings.
Left me off your little list of liars.
I wonder...
Are you able to list anybody who is critical of the program; Anyone who is declaring it abusive and neglectful; that is telling the truth?
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Gee Carey -
You've hurt my feelings.
Left me off your little list of liars.
I wonder...
Are you able to list anybody who is critical of the program; Anyone who is declaring it abusive and neglectful; that is telling the truth?
Do you know what et,al means? Well let me help you out...it could mean you. Given your posting as Anon, and given your comment, it probably does include you.
Hey, just post as Anon, then you don't have to worry about what you say, truthful or not. Hey you don't even have to worry about being looked at as being ignorant for some of your very own decisions. Well you have heard the saying "ignorance is bliss." Maybe so for you, but not for those you are hurting and/or protecting.
Keep that bag over your head, you are safe that way, protected from the truth. Oh yeah and protected from any public scrutiny.
Ginger, all of the Trekkers you have talked to and gotten to know...when did that take place? Have they been emailing you behind the scenes? You have not been able to talk to me because of the case, until of course your recent post, referencing those Trekkers who you know. Just curious incase you are wondering why I ask.
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Seems Ginger is finally getting it, your hatred of the so call trekkers and your obseession with pure sue is your real beef. Why else dont you get that Dundee and WWASPS are one in the same? Your lawyer with the resources is the resources of WWASPS, nothing else. Floirda is HUGE, why pick the lawyer that assists WWASPS? Why pick a lawyer that had his own child at TB/WWASPS for 3 years!!!!! He obviouslyt isgned the contract. What is your opinion there? Yup, I am another dumb ass paernt, but seems you cant decide who your loyalty is with, as long as your hatred is satisfied. Hey survivors, Carey could care less about the programs, she only cares that she hurts the one she thinks hurt or exploited her.
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Carey, I put the bag on after you sold me out.
Made me kinda paranoid. I think your out to get me, Carey. I think you've tried hard to get me to "say" something your Pals could give me grief over. And so, the dam bag.
But back to you.
You are ducking perfectly good questions again.
For instance:
I wonder...
Are you able to list anybody who is critical of the program; Anyone who is declaring it abusive and neglectful; that is telling the truth?
And I see where you say you and your representation have discussed certain program issues; but you never commented on these questions:
Carey, does your attorney know what you think about him?
Are you going to be Honest with Him?
Tell him the Truth?
Demand that he be held accountable?
And this:
Is her *Carey?s* commitment to total honesty (yeah right) absolute enough for her to speak her mind when it might cost her something?
She has no concern when it might cost others dearly.
Does she hold herself to the same standard she tries so hard to impose on others?
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bump :grin:
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Carey
You are such a waste of time and energy. So dumb.
Hasnt your guy from Florida suggested that you shut the fuck up.
You are so limited in the real facts.
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Seems like I'm not the only one who experienced difficulty in getting a straight answer out of Carey...I guess it wasn't just me...
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Have you ever known her, at any time, to admit she was wrong about something?
Admit she made a mistake?
That she didn't blame on other people, I mean.
I can't think of even one time.
I wonder who she blames for making her say such mean things about Program parents, now that her attorney is one?