Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: Anonymous on February 10, 2004, 09:08:00 AM
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Have a friend that went through. (1 year)
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It was called Substance Abuse Family Education (SAFE) or dba Associated Counseling and Education. I personally have never heard of a program called SAFETY.
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I guess it was SAFe, my friend was in. He's in jail right now, awaiting prison time. He a while back.
Over 5 years ago.
He went throught Straight Inc. also, he said they are one in the same.
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He 'was in' a while back.
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I left SAFE in late 1995. I worked there for 2 1/2 years. I started when Straight closed and SAFE opened. I worked there during the HRS investigations and the admissions moratorium. Did you have any questions?
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What I would like to know, is why do people get put through the program, numberous amounts of times in certain cases, even though it obviously did not help, and in many cases, made the problems much worse?
The treatment process doesn't work, it destroys.
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The best way for me to answer that question is to direct you to the other topic I started right below this one. There are 2 ex-Safe clients and one mom that commented about their time at SAFE. I do not know what happened to your friend individually. During my 2 1/2 years at SAFE, no kid who graduated did so unequipped to handle the real world. There were kids who did not finish their aftercare and who did not stay sober.
I am confused as to what you mean by destroy. If you would like to be more specific about details you can PM, if you dont want to post something. I had friends who worked there until recently.
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I know what these places do.
They destroy the developemental process of young people's minds, and developing young adults. Psychic murder. Pavalav's dogs type therapy. Mind control, thought reform, brainwashing, etc...
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What you are saying are things I have heard before. None of what you described went on when I was at SAFE. You might want to go over some of the prior posts in the thread below this one. Alot of topics were coverd.
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Okay. Next time I talk to him, I'll ask him when he was in.
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On 2004-02-10 13:46:00, exsafecounselor wrote:
"What you are saying are things I have heard before. None of what you described went on when I was at SAFE. You might want to go over some of the prior posts in the thread below this one. Alot of topics were coverd.
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You mean SAFE wasn't a long term, confrontational, aggressive, thought reform, TOUGHLOVE, break 'em to save 'em, "program" with 1st through 5th phases, newcomers, host homes, belt loops, and motivating?
On what phase is the client allowed the privlige to read, write or use the phone to call friends or relatives?
Are 1st phasers still under 24 hour watch, and told this is so they don't cause harm to themselves?
Do you realize what tampering with a young person?s ability to trust his own judgement makes as an adult? These places teach you that if you don't conform, you are choosing to self injure! Do people still carve and scratch on their arms who are misbehaving? Forcing total dependency of the program only works for so long, but with every forced act, there is a natural need to rebel against it in a normal adolescent mind.. You tell someone they will be nothing without the program, not realizing their need for individuality, will win, but then, they lose, because they were programmed to think they're nothing but dead, in jail, or hooked on drugs, without it.
The lucky and strong survive.
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These programs breed homeless, drug addicted criminals... or suicide victims.
Lost souls.
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The answer to your questions/accusations are in the thread under this one.
[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-02-10 14:52 ]
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Actually no, they aren't, and instead of being all vague and shifty, why don't you answer them here, because you didn't answer then over there.
You avoided answering them.
PS - re-naming something, doesn't make it a different thing.
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Actually, changing the name DID change things. I was in SAFE for 18 months when I was 17 years old. I am now 28 years old and don't use any drugs. I relapsed when I got out and did alot more drugs than I did when I first went in but I straightened myself out and I think that "program" had ALOT to do with that. I won't say it kept me off drugs but everything they taught me there, like addiction being progressive is 100% true. Life is what you make it and even if STRAIGHT was the way it was, SAFE wasn't that way. I feel bad that so many people were abused in STRAIGHT but I'm sorry to say that people need to deal with their "feelings" and move on from it instead of dwelling in the "PAST".....
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I'm not dwelling in the "PAST" (program term) I am thinking about the life of a friend of mine who is facing prison time, for criminal activity/drug charges, who has been in state jail in Texas already, who went throught Straight and Safe Inc, and got not help either time.
Good for you and your success, but don't try to dictate to me how to think or feel, okay?
Thanks.
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I just want to make sure that I understand what you are saying. It is Straight's and SAFE's fault that your friend is in prison? Is this what you are saying?
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In the Topic named " I am an exsafe counselor ", I talked about all kinds of things regarding SAFE. If there is something specific you want to know, which is not in there, please let me know.
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On 2004-02-11 10:19:00, exsafecounselor wrote:
"I just want to make sure that I understand what you are saying. It is Straight's and SAFE's fault that your friend is in prison? Is this what you are saying?
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No, but I believe it played a part in damaging his ability to ever grasp who he is. These places never gave him an accurate psychological evaluation. It wasn't until 15 years later that he was diagnosed with bi-polar disorder. He's a poly substance abuser, and I believe his drug use, and behavior have been a branch of his mental disorder. Yet for years he went undiagnosed, and untreated. His treatment in these places only buried, complicated and worsened his real problems, and convinced him he was a "druggie."
These programs are not equipped with the professionals needed to take on the jobs of individually, giving psychiatric/ family/drug abuse/behavior therapy. I see a licensed psychiatrist/therapist, and believe that a counselor's job is: referral/recruiter, low level therapy.
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You bring up a good point that I talked about in the other topic. At SAFE, EVERY child is seen and evaluated by a psychologist. This has to be done in order for SAFE to be paid by an insurance company, for SAFE to be in compliance with the governing authorities, and most importantly for the child to receive the best treatment. Every child who receives treatment at SAFE must have a substance abuse diagnosis. If a child has an additional areas of concern, that can not be handled by the psychologist, then they are referred to someone else. For example, SAFE had a relationhsips with psychiatrists for those kids that needed psychotropic medication.
Regarding the "low level therapy" that the counselors gave, I think you are misinformed. While I was working there, 3 out of the 4 executive staff/counselors, were Certified Addictions Professionals. I go into some detail about that credential here:
I cut and pasted this from the Certification Board of Addicition Professionals website.
CAP
Certified Addiction Professional
This classification is viewed as the title for the addiction treatment professional primarily involved in providing direct treatment services in addictions. The requirements for this classification are as follows:
Degree: Bachelor?s Degree (minimum)
Experience: 6,000 hours of Direct Service
(within past 10 years)
Supervision: 300 hours of Direct Supervision
(A minimum of 10 hours must be documented in each skill area)
Education: 300 hours of Education:
145 hours of Addiction education
125 hours in Counseling education
30 hours must be in Ethics
4 hours must be in HIV/AIDS*
2 hours must be in Domestic Violence*
* Part of the total Education requirement, and counts for either Addiction or Counseling.
Written exam(s): Florida Specific Exam, and International Exam
Oral exam: Yes **
** Oral exam exemption: For applicants applying for the CAP certification with a Master?s Degree in a clinical counseling or counseling-related field (i.e., social work, mental health counseling, marriage and family, psychology), the oral exam may be waived if the following requirements are met:
Degree was received from a fully accredited institution, recognized by the U.S. Department of Education or Commission on Recognition of Postsecondary Accreditation, AND EITHER:
Have at least one university-sponsored supervised clinical practicum, internship, or field experience in a counseling setting where you provided clinical services directly to clients, OR
Have registered Intern Status through the Agency for Health Care Administration.
A written request to waive the oral exam must accompany your application.
Not quite what you thought, is it. It seems that we can learn from each other. Does this allow me to work with children? 6000 hours of direct service, 300 hours of direct supervision, 300 hours of education, a written and an oral exam. All of this prior to becoming certified. I am qualified or at least I was, I dropped my certification a couple of years after I left the indusry.
Check it our for yourself http://www.netinstitute.net/CertProcess2.htm#CAP (http://www.netinstitute.net/CertProcess2.htm#CAP)
[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-02-11 13:14 ]
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I feel fairly certain that what was being referred to was the fact that Straight and SAFE are run by paraprofessionals with executives pretty much figure heads who, other than executive raps twice a week, had little group interaction. Of course Straight and SAFE had psychologists, we all had to see one. I believe the one in Dallas was Dr.Deere. He was paid by Straight and if Straight did not get paid, guess who else did not? I know children in Straight were kept who were not substance abusers, I would guess around 85% and 100% absolutely did not deserve the 'treatment' that Straight brainwashed into them. I find it so hard to fathom that there are enough TRUE teen addicts that any place like Straight or SAFE were/are able to maintain the size of their groups. Let's get real, teens experiment and those who truly go beyond experimentation and start to suffer consequences from their use, have underlying issues that, if addressed and treated, can easily be redirected. Most people I was in high school with could have at one time or another, either in high school or college managed to get quite a few points on all the diagnostic tests administered but today the majority of us, I'd say atleast 75%, are successful, productive people who are not anything close to drug addicts. I am not saying that no teens have drug problems but I find the claim that every client at SAFE was a true abuser to be one very tall tale.
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This is where being a client and having no knowledge of what really goes on behind the scenes really hurts you. Executive staff are 100% totally responsible for what goes on in raps. Just because they are not on the rap stool, does not mean they have limited group interaction. To a certain degree, the executive staff are running the group, using the group staff as their mouthpiece. Again, this is how it worked at SAFE when I was there.
Also, the argument that just becuase the psychologist is gettin paid automatically means that they will do what SAFE wants them to do is ridiculous. Does that mean that everyone who is dependent upon consumers buying a product or service is corrupt? Do you see how ridiculous that is? Our psychologist was there 10 hours per week. She actually was not a SAFE employee, but an independent contractor. The other 40 hours of her work week she ran a private practice. If she lied about clients simply to get them into treatment, she could easily lose her license and goto jail. Does it make sense to lose a 40 hour a week career, just so you can keep your 10 hour a week emplyer happy?
Also, you have thrown around alot of figures. It seems that you have hard facts about SAFE. If you do, contact children and family services with your facts, and I am sure they will close them down. Did you sense my sarcasm?
If you or your friend were in SAFE past the evaluation period, then you were diagnosed with a substance abuse problem-PERIOD! Which means you had a problem. Its really that simple.
It sounds like you need some help with your first step.
[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-02-12 08:08 ]
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On 2004-02-12 08:05:00, exsafecounselor wrote:
Also, the argument that just becuase the psychologist is gettin paid automatically means that they will do what SAFE wants them to do is ridiculous. Does that mean that everyone who is dependent upon consumers buying a product or service is corrupt? Do you see how ridiculous that is? Our psychologist was there 10 hours per week. She actually was not a SAFE employee, but an independent contractor. The other 40 hours of her work week she ran a private practice. If she lied about clients simply to get them into treatment, she could easily lose her license and goto jail.
Don't be so naive. It happens ALL THE TIME. Not just in SAFE/WWASPS etc...but MOST treatment centers. Seems people need all the 'help' in the world as long as their insurance pays out, but when it reaches it's limits it's a different story.
If you or your friend were in SAFE past the evaluation period, then you were diagnosed with a substance abuse problem-PERIOD! Which means you had a problem. Its really that simple.
It sounds like you need some help with your first step.
Same program rhetoric. Please try and come up with something original next time. We all know "unbiased" these diagnositics are. The idea that kids need to be shipped off somewhere to have a program 'fix' them or 'modify their behavior' is nuts. It's time for parents to take responsibility for their own kids, grow a backbone and quit dumping the responsibility off on so-called 'professionals'. The decision to lock up a kid should be a LAST AND FINAL RESORT to a VIOLENT situation. I've read all your posts and I don't disagree with everything you say but you will never convice me that most of the kids who are diagnosed with a drug problem at SAFE actually have one. I would be willing to bet large sums of money that the majority are normal teenagers going through normal teenage rebellion, experimentation etc. I believe that they have gotten themselves into some trouble, some of them even serious trouble...but that comes along with being a teen. The drug war culture has gotten so out of hand that we've forgotten that these kids are KIDS....and HUMAN...they're going to make some huge mistakes. That's how they learn. Some kids take longer and go through more difficult and painful lessons to learn what they need to than others. It's incredibly frightening to go through those years as a parent, I understand that. I've been through it with one daughter and I'm going through it now with the other but, that's where it can get so dangerous in how parents deal with those years. It's real easy to get caught up in the rolling drug war show and buy into the snake oil salesman, scare-the-hell-out-of-the-parents, one-size-fits-all approach to this. If you sent the student body of a typical American high school to be diagnosed by the SAFE staff I would also bet money that they would say that 70-80% needed to be in treatment.
It's time to swing the pendulum back towards the middle. The Reagan (even before, but he really got it going) years started this knee-jerk reaction to drugs (just like prohibition in the 20s, see how well THAT worked :roll: ) and things have gotten WAY out of control. The mentality seems to be to just lock up everyone who does drugs. Lock the adults up in prison for a few joints, lock the kids up in treatment for the same. Please don't dismiss me as some druggie, pro-legalization fanatic...I'm not. I'm just a regular person who sees the desperate need for a return to common sense in this country...especially where this whole drug war bullshit is concerned. I'm not saying there isn't a problem with drugs in America...I'm saying that the way we're dealing with it doesn't work and never has. Time to try something new.
I've said before that if SAFE was a decent place when you were there, great(not saying I actually believe that, but for the sake of argument let's say it's so). But it obviously wasn't before and apparently isn't now and now is what we're really concerned with. If things were good when you were there, fine...then nothing needs to be done about THAT period of time. Do we really need to continue that part of the discussion??I do not believe in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance.
--Thomas Carlyle
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Cayohueso,
I am glad you are back. Although you and I do not always see eye-to-eye, you make some good points without being verbally abusive.
When it comes to insurance and length of treatment, I totally agree with you. After I left SAFE, I worked in a psychiatric hospital. When a new patient was admitted, the first person who spoke was a representative from the business office who informed us how long a person could stay. We then created a treatment plan that coincided with their benefits. I only lasted about 6 months at this place. It was this experience that made me jaded toward the entire mental health industry. I am totally not naive to how the business side works.
However, when I talked about SAFE kids receiving a diagnosis I think it is not my naive nature, but rather your paranoia that is coming out. I posted this earlier and I will again. Does that mean that everyone who is dependent upon consumers buying a product or service is corrupt? I personally know the character of the staff pshychologist that is there NOW. Every single kid meets the criteria as outlined in the DSM IV. Your issue may not be with a misdiagnosis, but rather what the DSM IV says. One other thing to think about. Insurance companies are paying out a ton of money every year for kids to receive treatment. Do you really think that they would do so, if such rampant corruption were really happening? Or if kids just acting like kids, as you have mentioned many times, were all that was required to receive treatment. I dont think insurance companies would be paying if this were the case.
Also, parents are by no means pawning their kid off for someone else to fix. Parent participation is not only necessary, it is required. Parents make a huge committment when they put their kid is SAFE. It is places like the pscyhiatric hospital that allow parents to drop off their kid and pick them up 30 days later. SAFE is nothing like that. The level of parental responsibility at SAFE is enormously high. Between host homes, parent meetings twice per week, and parent weekends, parents have barely enough time to work. I am a little confused about why you would say that parents are avoiding responsility by putting their kid in SAFE.
Regarding your personal issues with your kids, I am glad that what you chose to do has worked out for you.
[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-02-13 10:07 ]
[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-02-13 10:09 ]
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On 2004-02-13 10:07:00, exsafecounselor wrote:
Every single kid meets the criteria as outlined in the DSM IV. Your issue may not be with a misdiagnosis, but rather what the DSM IV says. One other thing to think about. Insurance companies are paying out a ton of money every year for kids to receive treatment. Do you really think that they would do so, if such rampant corruption were really happening? Or if kids just acting like kids, as you have mentioned many times, were all that was required to receive treatment. I dont think insurance companies would be paying if this were the case.
You may have a point about me having a problem with the diagnostic techniques...I do. They are born out of the drug war mentality that I believe is so severely flawed. That goes to the insurance companies paying out for this. The 12 step routine is about the only game in town. Through this drug war most people, including the professionals, believe that this is the only way to deal with adolescent drug problems, or adult for that matter. THAT makes no sense to me at all after seeing and experiencing what I have. I am not speaking of just Straight or SAFE, but my experiences with AA, raising my own kids, my experiences AFTER Straight etc. All of those life lessons have led me to believe that this kind of 'treatment' is not best for everyone, or even most people in my opinion. The attitude towards drug use and abuse has got to change. We've tried dealing with it like this for what?....60, 70 years???? It ain't workin'.
Also, parents are by no means pawning their kid off for someone else to fix. Parent participation is not only necessary, it is required. Parents make a huge committment when they put their kid is SAFE. It is places like the pscyhiatric hospital that allow parents to drop off their kid and pick them up 30 days later. SAFE is nothing like that. The level of parental responsibility at SAFE is enormously high. Between host homes, parent meetings twice per week, and parent weekends, parents have barely enough time to work. I am a little confused about why you would say that parents are avoiding responsility by putting their kid in SAFE.
This is an area where I DO have quite a bit of experience. First, I do think it's easier for some parents to ship their kids off rather than tackle the problem head on themselves. Not all parents, but quite a few. Yes, there is a lot of parent involvement in SAFE, but after having teens myself...it's STILL easier than keeping them home and dealing with it. At SAFE the parents deal with it a few times a week instead of 24/7 like I did with mine at home. Second, the parents are fed a lot of the same bullshit that the kids are...i.e. "you/your kid will die if you leave here"...when the kid says ANYTHING negative about the program the parents are told they're just manipulating (yes, I know manipulation is part of the process, but this applies to ANYTHING negative at all). Just the way this 'theraputic community' is set up is damaging to a kid. At that age they're SUPPOSED to be distant and moody and rebellious. It's part of them breaking away from childhood and they're parents and breaking into adulthood. It's part of them finding their own autonomy. If they're isolated from the rest of the world for extended periods of time, especially with the intention of breaking them in order to build them back up, how are they going to learn??? The most valuable lessons I learned were AFTER Straight and I'm realizing that these were all things that I SHOULD have had the opportunity to learn during my teen years. Those kids are locked up in this unrealistic, sheltered little world and the only information and knowledge they're exposed to is from the same brainwashed people or the staff, who I believe are either too caught up in the drug war mentality to be able to be open to anything besides THEIR way, or they're just in it for the money or they have a need to be in control of other people. I'm not saying that all staff are evil, but I do think most are sheep following the same stupid rhetoric that has been pushed on the country for the last however many years. I just think it's time to look for some alternative answers.The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.
--William Safire
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On 2004-02-13 13:39:00, cayohueso wrote:
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On 2004-02-13 10:07:00, exsafecounselor wrote:
Every single kid meets the criteria as outlined in the DSM IV. Your issue may not be with a misdiagnosis, but rather what the DSM IV says. One other thing to think about. Insurance companies are paying out a ton of money every year for kids to receive treatment. Do you really think that they would do so, if such rampant corruption were really happening? Or if kids just acting like kids, as you have mentioned many times, were all that was required to receive treatment. I dont think insurance companies would be paying if this were the case.
You may have a point about me having a problem with the diagnostic techniques...I do. They are born out of the drug war mentality that I believe is so severely flawed. That goes to the insurance companies paying out for this. The 12 step routine is about the only game in town. Through this drug war most people, including the professionals, believe that this is the only way to deal with adolescent drug problems, or adult for that matter. THAT makes no sense to me at all after seeing and experiencing what I have. I am not speaking of just Straight or SAFE, but my experiences with AA, raising my own kids, my experiences AFTER Straight etc. All of those life lessons have led me to believe that this kind of 'treatment' is not best for everyone, or even most people in my opinion. The attitude towards drug use and abuse has got to change. We've tried dealing with it like this for what?....60, 70 years???? It ain't workin'.
Also, parents are by no means pawning their kid off for someone else to fix. Parent participation is not only necessary, it is required. Parents make a huge committment when they put their kid is SAFE. It is places like the pscyhiatric hospital that allow parents to drop off their kid and pick them up 30 days later. SAFE is nothing like that. The level of parental responsibility at SAFE is enormously high. Between host homes, parent meetings twice per week, and parent weekends, parents have barely enough time to work. I am a little confused about why you would say that parents are avoiding responsility by putting their kid in SAFE.
This is an area where I DO have quite a bit of experience. First, I do think it's easier for some parents to ship their kids off rather than tackle the problem head on themselves. Not all parents, but quite a few. Yes, there is a lot of parent involvement in SAFE, but after having teens myself...it's STILL easier than keeping them home and dealing with it. At SAFE the parents deal with it a few times a week instead of 24/7 like I did with mine at home. Second, the parents are fed a lot of the same bullshit that the kids are...i.e. "you/your kid will die if you leave here"...when the kid says ANYTHING negative about the program the parents are told they're just manipulating (yes, I know manipulation is part of the process, but this applies to ANYTHING negative at all). Just the way this 'theraputic community' is set up is damaging to a kid. At that age they're SUPPOSED to be distant and moody and rebellious. It's part of them breaking away from childhood and they're parents and breaking into adulthood. It's part of them finding their own autonomy. If they're isolated from the rest of the world for extended periods of time, especially with the intention of breaking them in order to build them back up, how are they going to learn??? The most valuable lessons I learned were AFTER Straight and I'm realizing that these were all things that I SHOULD have had the opportunity to learn during my teen years. Those kids are locked up in this unrealistic, sheltered little world and the only information and knowledge they're exposed to is from the same brainwashed people or the staff, who I believe are either too caught up in the drug war mentality to be able to be open to anything besides THEIR way, or they're just in it for the money or they have a need to be in control of other people. I'm not saying that all staff are evil, but I do think most are sheep following the same stupid rhetoric that has been pushed on the country for the last however many years. I just think it's time to look for some alternative answers.The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.
--William Safire
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I can't believe you still waste this much time debating with the SAFE guy. He obviously defends his time there for some sort of personal reasons, and will continue to delude himself to the fact that what he participated in, was anything short of a destructive mind control cult. Just wait.
He needs to do this to make his reality "okay."
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"At that age they're SUPPOSED to be distant and moody and rebellious."
I am amazed at how you are minizing the behavior of the kids in SAFE. It is not like these kids missed Sunday school and an over-zealous parent put them in SAFE. Based on my experience at SAFE, about 2/3 of the kids had already been to another form of residential treatment before SAFE. The ones that had not, had already been seen by a private psychologist or psychiatrist. Kids acting like kids never has, nor never will justify admission into SAFE. I am sorry to disappoint you.
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is it denial, self preservation/defense, a warped personality that enjoys continuing to contribute to the pain already inflicted by you and your fellow exec's or do you really believe the bullshit you try to convince people of? we fucking survived that place or places like it and how incredibly sick to be told by the very people who abused us that we did not experience it. it is classic perpetrator behavior - deny at all costs - convince authorities the abused are the liars, at fault. As a survivor of not only an abusive treatment facility but incest as well - I have dealt with a fair share of having to stand up for my right to be heard over perps who tried to say I was lying, delusional, crazy - the gamut and it is just disgusting to read the defenses of SAFE and the abuse carried on there. I get that denial is the strongest form of self preservation, please find a site that is pro-abuse to defend yourself and let those who need support to heal from all they suffered get what they need here - reading your propaganda is enough to make any survivor vomit
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On 2004-02-15 21:34:00, exsafecounselor wrote:
I am amazed at how you are minizing the behavior of the kids in SAFE. It is not like these kids missed Sunday school and an over-zealous parent put them in SAFE.
That's precisely what happened for a very long time and, I believe, still goes on today. But that's beside the point. I AM talking about more serious trouble...as I said before, I'm a parent of two teens...I'm quite aware of the kinds of trouble they can (and did) get into. It still doesn't justify SAFE.
Based on my experience at SAFE, about 2/3 of the kids had already been to another form of residential treatment before SAFE. The ones that had not, had already been seen by a private psychologist or psychiatrist. Kids acting like kids never has, nor never will justify admission into SAFE. I am sorry to disappoint you. "
You don't disappoint me, I expect this kind of an answer from you. Anon was right, this is a waste of time. Your statement that "Kids acting like kids never has, nor never will justify admission into SAFE" shows how closed minded and still brainwashed you are. You asked me to entertain the notion that things might have been different when you were there. I accomodated... but by you saying that this kind of shit NEVER happened and NEVER will is absurd and proves you to be the troll you are. The previous poster hit it on the head...when all else fails...DENY, DENY, DENY...The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad.
-- Salvador Dali
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You disappoint me. What basis do any of you have for backing up your claims other than it happened to me 15 years ago in Straight. I too have tolerated ex-Straight people who think that because they were in the program, that somehow makes them an expert on all TC programs.
Emotion is what rules your life-resentment, anger and mostly fear. Why is is that I am brainwashed when I say something you simply dont agree with? How is it that I became brainwashed? Who brainwashed me and how? Somehow it is easier for you to accept that I have been brainwashed (which is an extreme thing), than it is to accept that you might be misled, mistaken, or simply ignorant of what you are talking about.
If you go back and look at my postings, to the best of my ability, I try and back up what I am saying with as much indisputable fact as possible. Of course, this is not possible in every case.
[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-02-16 07:59 ]
[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-02-16 08:01 ]
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My previous post answered your question. You said that "Kids acting like kids never has, nor never will justify admission into SAFE". You're implying that you KNOW that it never happened and never will......I'm not basing my OPINION about SAFE on Straight. Yes, I believe the kids who say they were abused in SAFE because of my experience in Straight. Remember, Straight closed down one day and opened THE SAME DAY IN THE SAME PLACE but under the SAFE name, so YES, I believe it DID happen and is STILL happening. You say it didn't happen when you were there. I have my opinions about that but at least I've given you the courtesy of the benefit of the doubt that MAYBE it wasn't as bad when you were there. You can't even seem to entertain the IDEA that it MIGHT have happened WHEN YOU WEREN'T THERE.
So, now please go away. You've made your point. You say that abuse didn't happen when you were there. I'm not saying I believe that, but that's what you say so, OK...we get that you don't think there was abuse when you were there. Others think differently. If you can't be open minded enought to simply tolerate the possibility that abuse happened, then there is no point carrying this discussion any further.
Buh bye :wave: Men seldom, or rather never for a length of time, and deliberately, rebel against anything that does not deserve rebelling against.
--Thomas Carlyle
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You sound like a lawyer. Is there a possibility that it happened and I did not know about it? Of course! Is there a possibility that it never happened? Of course!
Basically, what I get from your last post is that you are not concerned about what I said, but rather that I used the word "never." Is this really why you read and post on this forum, to squabble over one word? I dont think so.
Even if one kid was abused, that does not mean a place is abusive. Are you a lawyer in real life? Thats like saying that because one kid was treated with dignity and respect in Straight, that Straight treated all kids that way.
[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-02-16 10:02 ]
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http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... forum=7&19 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=4395&forum=7&19)
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This has become tiresome. You know what I mean, so does everyone else.
Yes, by you saying that no kid was EVER put into SAFE for just being a teen and they NEVER will constitutes a denial on your part that abuse or wrongful intakes EVER HAPPENED.
OK - LAST time....you say abuse never happened while you were there.....if that's so, FANFUCKINGTASTIC...but apparently others that were there during the time periods you were NOT there say that it DID happen and STILL DOES. You choose to deny that, I choose to believe it based on my experience with it's parent program and based on the fact that it follows the SAME FUCKING FORMAT AS ALL THE REST OF THE ABUSIVE 'TREATMENT' CENTERS.
You believe one thing, I, along with what seems to be quite a few others, believe something different...can we leave it at that???? :roll: If life were fair, Dan Quayle would be making a living asking 'Do you want fries with that?'
John Cleese
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[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-02-16 12:48 ]
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"apparently others that were there during the time periods you were NOT there say that it DID happen"
Please direct any and all SAFE people my way. I would love to chat with them. The reason I even started posting on this site was to try and understand why people at SAFE were so upset about their experience. I am completely open to listening to others. On earlier posts I conceded that I saw and heard things in the WAMI video that did not sound or look right to me. Yes, you and I will agree to disagree. I look forward to hearing from the many people that were in SAFE that are making these statements.
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please just start your own little thread of people who had positive experiences at SAFE - reading through these threads I found one... you two can kum-bah-yah about what a wonderful, ethical place it was and the others who have different points of views and experiences can pursue the healing they need. In response to your reply about my previous post - anger, resentment and fear do not rule my life any longer - but I won't deny that they did for many years. Through a great therapist who introduced me to a fantastic deprogrammer, I was fortunate enough to find the healing I needed to move forward in my life. Having some moron troll this board who only perpetuates the doubt and fear these places bred in us does raise my ire something fierce and does not bring up fear in me but it sure does piss me off to see just how disrespectful you are of survivors experience and need to heal.
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I've been writing a book for several years (on a mostly part-time basis) - and I cruise these boards looking for people who were in the program.
I am not looking for people who had only a negative experience - I'm looking for people who had AN experience.
This board isn't just for those who loathe the program. It's for anyone who was IN the program.
Now, I understand what you are saying to the exsafecounselor, but you should understand that maybe his experience WAS different than yours.
You know how we're always on our best behavior when the boss is looking? But if the boss isn't there, well, maybe we aren't in a rush to get back after lunch, or maybe we chat and laugh more. And so maybe, just maybe - when exsafe was around - they didn't do the things they did - when he wasn't around. Or maybe any number of scenarios. Maybe the program wasn't abusive when he was there. I wasn't there, so I don't know. But the thing is - his experience is his experience. And whether you agree with him or not, maybe he's on this site for the same reasons you are - one of which being that he was there, so that qualifies him to be here.
And by the way - if anyone is interested - I'm still looking for more participants from SAFE for my book! E-mail me!