Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on February 07, 2004, 02:57:00 AM
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THIS DESERVES ITS OWN THREAD ::kiss::
On 2004-02-06 20:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Because the program was working and it never was supposed to be club med....if the place was just like home what would be the purpose of it? Martha who is just scandalous by nature looking for problems and amberly not understanding the nature of the business she was in and how manipulative both the kids and the parents who screwed up their own kids in the first place are ...started to attack the administration who was paying her in good faith to look out for their interest to their own clients they had entrusted her with... when Narvin found an e-mail betwixt amberly and Martha that was playing him against the parent he confronted her and she committed to have no more contact with Martha and or any secondary agendas. Narvin should have fired her right then and there but contrary to what?s been falsely reported Narvin who I?ve known for 20 years has a hard time firing anybody and usually wants every one to have a chance to win.... Amberly acted thereafter in complete bad faith and a total lack of integrity and what has happened since is just more of the same and doesn?t surprise any of us that actually worked with her...everything bears its own fruit and all are eventually revealed in the light of day...by the way any and all restrictions on Mr. Lichfield in Costa Rica are off and the prosecutor has publicly stated that there is no evidence of Mr. Lichfield abusing any one...and the pani 15 points has been declared illegal and void by their own lawyer in fact... Pani is before the supreme court of Costa Rica being denounced for its handling of this whole affair?. wherein heresy and e-mail allegations made by a non-custodial parent like sue flowers whose own daughter in front of the judge who is now denouncing Mr. Vargas for his abuse of power, said that her mothers allegations where false.... was accepted and put an innocent man in jail overnight, slandered him world wide in the press over false allegations, destroyed a business that employed 90 people who truly cared for the kids in their care. But truth will soon find its way it always does and the players will be seen as they truly are I enclose the following article in the tico times hardly a Dundee sympathizer on what happened. Also a time line of events as documented by two parents not affiliated with wwasp who tell their own story but of course it wasn?t salasous enough for any in the press But will be good for the law suits that will soon follow?
Making ?Tough Love? Consistent with Costa Rica Tico times Tue, 27 May 2003
This week?s intervention by the Child Welfare Office (PANI) at Dundee Ranch Academy was an overdue yet poorly executed effort to bring Costa Rican law to bear on a facility that operates in this country.
Officials at PANI have long known about the complaints from students and a small minority of parents over conditions at the discipline-heavy school, a for-profit enterprise that describes itself as a "behavior modification program."
But not until this week, when some local Spanish-language media began reporting on the issue, did PANI show any resolve to action. And in mishandling the situation in an attempt to save face with the Costa Rican public, the conditions of these troubled teenagers may have only been worsened.
There is no doubt that these "tough-love" facilities, and Dundee is not alone among them here, must be monitored and held accountable to the standards of Costa Rican laws. This includes sanitary conditions, educational programs and physical treatment of the students.
Some parents and other observers see nothing wrong with Dundee operating here as it would were it in the United States. But enclaves ? areas exempt from the laws of the nation that hosts them ? no longer exist in Costa Rica.
Whatever violations of Costa Rican regulations Dundee may have committed, the gross negligence of the way local officials handled Tuesday?s "inspection" may be just as egregious.
By all accounts, adult supervisors were spirited away from the youths so that local officials could "inform" the students of their rights under Costa Rican law. What was apparently missing from this rupture of the stern discipline was an explanation that rights go hand-in-hand with responsibilities.
Naturally, the students, told the school rules did not apply to them, took it to mean that no rules apply to them. The resulting vandalism, violence and ugliness that ensued ? not to mention the risks to the lives of the kids who ran away ? may well have had their roots in the repression the students are subject to, but the chaos was set off by Costa Rican authorities who were acting only to allay domestic political pressure.
If Dundee is to operate in Costa Rica, its students must be allowed the same rights as all children in the country. Just because parents want them disciplined does not mean the laws of the country end at the school gates.
Had Dundee operated under that premise ? and had Costa Rican officials thought things out before acting ? the images of "Lord of the Flies"-style anarchy would not have reared their heads on the controversial campus this week.
June 24, 2003
To Whom it May Concern:
It is with pleasure that I am writing this letter to discuss my experience with The Academy Dundee Ranch and the World Wide Association of Specialty Programs. I am a parent who had the make the most difficult decision of my life to place my son in a program school. We ran out of options here and found that there was little, in fact no assistance from any local authority or hospital; in fact, there was no program like this available to assist my son and my family through this very difficult journey that would allow for us to stay together while we were going through this difficult time.
My son was unmanageable at home. We were in therapy on an on-going basis, psychiatric hospitals and special camps to assist defiant teens. We found that our whole family was affected and the behaviors that my son was exhibiting were carrying over to his little sister despite our steadfast efforts to maintain a home with a strong value
system. I am not a stay at home Mom, but I was able to work my schedule around the school and therefore was home by the time my son returned home from school. He did not go without constant supervision, but we still were not able to manage his behaviors. We could see that he was slipping away and were very concerned for his future. I looked at many different types of boarding schools and finally decided on a school that specialized in working heavily with the entire family and not just the teen who was in trouble. That school is the Academy Dundee Ranch in Costa Rica. I must say that I feel that not only my son's life was saved, but that all of our lives were saved and have became more meaningful than I could have ever imagined. I attribute all of this to my son?s work at The Academy Dundee Ranch and our work as a family through the programs and seminars provided by ADR and the World Wide Association of Specialty Programs.
Anyone who has not been through this experience or has a relationship with someone who has been through this experience may have a difficult time understanding how we could take such "extreme measures". It may seem that way to those who are not in a situation like ours, but let me assure you that my experience is that the best parents are those who will do absolutely anything and everything in their power to help their children. I speak with parents almost each day who have a troubled teen or teen in trouble, and they are afraid for their teen's life and future. In cases like this, how can we not make the choice to get our teen into this program or a program like this. On the
other side of the coin, one would certainly pass extreme judgment on us as parents if we DID NOT get our teen into a safe environment where they could not hurt themselves or someone else. I guess one would have to ask the question, "just how dead do you want your kid to be?" We must all wake up and see that there is a serious problem in this and other countries. I don't think I would be too extreme to classify the growing problem with troubled teens as an emergency that needs to be addressed by all- not just the families who are in crisis.
My son?s work at The Academy Dundee Ranch was comprised of many different facets all designed to create the motivation for change. Martin was given the opportunity to be involved in leadership roles at the school, participated in several plays in the Drama Department, acted as a hope buddy for newer kids, graduated the Discovery, Focus, PC1, Breakpoint and Accountability seminars and overall gained many tools designed to assist him is a successful and meaningful life style. As a result, Martin achieved a 3.71 GPA and was scheduled to take the SAT?s at the age of 16. He now has fewer than 3 ½ credits left to graduate high school and has decided to become an Aerospace Engineer. I can safely say that his level of self confidence is higher than ever and he was soaring as a result of the work he has done in this program.
For a long time Martin was one of the kids who was in heavy resistance to change and the caring staff at ADR worked tirelessly to get him to a place where he could discover
Letter ? Page 2
Anita Freedman
his unlimited potential and begin to tap into it in a working way. He was never mistreated and always given the opportunity to start over when it was necessary. I was able to see Martin at PC1 in January and then again in May of this year for 7 days. I received mail regularly both from regular mail deliveries and also from email at least once if not twice and sometimes three times a week. It was clear that Martin was free to write whatever he felt by virtue of his letters which were always open and expressed his feelings. My son reports that not only have NONE of the allegations about the facility ever happened to him, he wishes to return to ADR to continue his program. I know that there are many students who feel the same way. My son was thriving, his self esteem was back as well has his smile that I had not seen in years!
Mr. Vargus and the PANI staff who came into the Academy and stated that the kids were free to leave the school and did not have to follow the rules of the school or the instruction of the staff which I gave full authority to act on my behalf as a parent, caused a great deal of harm not just to my child who was progressing so nicely but also to so many other students and their families. Mr. Vargus, whose position it is to carry out the laws, actually knowingly endangered the life of my minor child. He did this without any warning and certainly usurped my authority as a parent. This willful act was in direct violation of Article 5 of the United Nations Convention on children. He went into my son?s school and stated that the minor students did not have to be there and did not have to follow any rules set forth by the school. Not only was my son put in direct danger by out of control students who were acting on the directives of Mr. Vargus, only time will tell of the emotional damage that has taken place as a result of Mr. Vargus?s actions. So far, there is substantial damage, both emotional and financial and it continues to unfold. Additionally, Mr. Vargus stood by and watched as laws were being broken by said children that he was charged to protect. Some of the children were not only endangering their own lives, but also the lives of others. The staff was remanded from doing anything to offer direction and protection and as a result, there was physical destruction to the school, students were injured and my son personally witnessed other students breaking the law, engaging in illicit acts among many other things. My son and the staff members were powerless to do anything to protect themselves based on Mr. Vargus?s clear directives and armed law enforcement to back him up.
To sum up, I can safely say that my son was progressing towards a future filled with love, happiness and success as a result of the work he has done at The Academy Dundee Ranch. His work was disrupted in such a negative way. He would be most willing to return to The Academy Dundee Ranch when it re-opens and would love to continue his program there.
Please do not hesitate to contact me for any additional information.
Sincerely,
Anita G. Freedman
770-263-7161 home
Academy at Dundee Ranch Timeline of Observations and Experiences
Jan Bezuidenhout
H: 303.773.0982
W: 303.860.9915
C: 720.436.2738
P: 303.380.7896
E-mail: bez@ecentral.com (http://mailto:bez@ecentral.com)
I am the mother of Eva Bezuidenhout (age 14), who was a level 4 student in the Diamond family when the events that resulted in the temporary closure of the program occurred. I arrived in Costa Rica on May 8th. My purpose was to staff three seminars with my daughter, and enjoy three days off campus with her. Prior to the series of events that are described in the following pages, my experiences at Dundee were very positive. I was permitted to go wherever I wanted to go, without staff escort. I was allowed to talk with any student. I ate with the kids in the dining hall and even slept and showered at the facility one night. I did not observe anything that could be described as abusive or harmful to kids in any way. Certainly, there are lower level students who hate the tight structure and wish they were at home, engaged in the behaviors that got them to Dundee in the first place. My experience of all of the upper level students, and many of the lower level students is that they truly value the tools they have acquired during their stay in the program. They have gained knowledge and experience that will work for them throughout their lives. They know that they are facing a bright future when they go home.
On a slightly humorous note, I had been thinking that the ?story? I would have to tell about my trip to Costa Rica was about being attacked by monkeys while Eva and I were hiking in Manual Antonio Park. In retrospect, that seems very tame!
Sunday May 18th
Narvin and Flory approached me at the end of PC 1 and asked me to extend my stay in Costa Rica so I could go with Eva and some other parents and children to talk with people at the American Embassy about our view of the program. I agreed and made arrangements to stay on. Narvin and Flory said that a local newspaper called Al Dia had been writing inflammatory articles about ADR, so concerns were high. They said that Al Dia is the Costa Rican equivalent of National Enquirer They said that the articles had to do with a woman named Su Flowers, non-custodial parent of Nicole, who wanted her daughter out of the program and told various sources that Nicole said that she was being abused by staff.
Nicole had been a participant in a Focus seminar that I staffed. My experience of her is that she is really ?working? and wants to be in the program.
Monday May 19th
A group of parents, students and staff from Dundee met with Steven Hunsucker of the American Embassy. Present were co-directors Fran and Harold, Anita and her son Martin, Terry and her son Matt, Rod and Kate and the son Phil, me and my daughter Eva. We all described our experiences of the program as very positive. The kids testified that they had been on a really dangerous track at home and felt the program had saved their lives. We addressed issues of alleged abuse, quality of food, overcrowding, restricted communications and ?brainwashing?. The US representative listened politely and attentively. He did comment that the Embassy may be limited in the role they can play since the laws of Costa Rica apply and local regulatory agencies have a right / obligation to enforce them.
I brought Eva back to school about 8:30 p.m. My plan was to go back to San Jose and get on a plane back to Denver at 7:15 the next morning. Narvin and Flory approached me and shared that a letter from PANI had been delivered to a person at the front gate of the school at about 6:30. Apparently PANI has been investigating the program for several months. The letter outlined 15 specific concerns. Dundee was given 24 hours to respond and declare their intentions in writing, and 30 days to fix the problems described. Narvin and Flory requested that I extend my stay to assist in formulating the response to PANI. I agreed to do so.
I stayed up until about 3:00 a.m. formulating a strategy with the ownership and management group. In essence, we decided that we should work closely with PANI to find a win/win solution to the issues at hand. I helped draft a letter from Narvin to PANI describing our intent and providing our perspective on the issues outlined. There was some disagreement on media strategy. I thought our interests would be best served if we tried to build a coalition based on caring about kids. Another individual felt strongly that Al Dia would not be open to this approach. We also talked about a media strategy, coalition building with other American companies operating in Costa Rica, and we discussed communications with parents. Consensus was not reached.
Tuesday, May 20th
We were back at work at about 5:00 the next morning. We were working on ?the letter?, thinking that we would create some breathing room so the identified problems could be solved creatively and appropriately. We completed the document just before noon. The text follows:
To Whom It May Concern:
We are in receipt of your letter detailing worries about conditions at Academy at Dundee Ranch. We wish to thank your for your concern about the well being of our children, and assure you that we intend to partner with you to guarantee service of the highest possible quality to the troubled teens entrusted to our care, and the parents who love them dearly. We believe that abundant opportunity exists for collaboration and ultimate resolution of the factors currently identified as problems, as well as others that may arise in the future. Our goal is to develop and maintain a mutually trusting and respectful relationship between ADR, PANI, other appropriate regulatory bodies, the media and, most importantly, the students and families we serve. We f eel certain that every identified individual and entity is at the proverbial table because of what unites us, not what may appear to divide us. We all care deeply about our kids.
You requested immediate response to concerns described in your letter. While we believe the issues to be complex, and deserving of extensive and ongoing conversation, we are absolutely willing to cooperate with you, in the spirit of partnership. Here are our thoughts about some of the key issues:
1. Limitations of our physical plant: It is certainly true that sleeping conditions at ADR are crowded. To a large extent, the decision to limit privacy is based upon years of accumulated data indicating that people, especially people whose historical behaviors indicate that they are entrenched in non-working patterns, do not learn and do not change when they are completely comfortable. As students move through are program they are afforded many additional privileges, including increased privacy.
2. Availability and adequacy of adult supervision and guidance: Approximately two hundred students are enrolled at ADR. Eighty-five adults are employed by the facility, in varying capacities. Most people would agree that this ratio of 1:2.35 is healthy indeed. Depending on position and responsibility, staff members have differing amounts of formal education and life experience working with troubled teens. Our employment philosophy is simple. We "hire the heart, train the skill and trust the person". Additionally, the Academy at Dundee Ranch invites students who have achieved "upper-level" status to serve as junior staff members. This practice enhances safety and consistency for young people who are further from program completion, while providing young leaders with an unparalleled opportunity to influence others in a positive and life affirming way. Additionally, licensed professionals trained to address the physiological and psychological health concerns of students are absolutely available. A nurse is on duty 24 hours per day to provide triage services. A physician, a psychologist, and dentist are available as needed, and students can access other specialists too.
3. Restricted communication between students and parents: At no point in the program are students prohibited from communicating with their parents in written form. Letters are never censored. We strongly recommend restriction of verbal communication until children reach level three and have earned the privilege of telephone communication with their parents. In person visits are strongly discouraged until a seminar called PC 1. However, parents are always encouraged to visit the campus and when they do so they are given free reign. They are permitted to talk with any student and visit any part of the facility. Please see item number one for philosophical framework.
4. Inadequacy of food provided: Students are served three nutritious, robust meals per day. The menu is somewhat repetitive, and bland in comparison to the fast food frenzy many students experienced prior to their arrival at ADR. Food is never withheld as a consequence for non-working behavior, although variety is occasionally restricted to encourage students entrenched in self-destructive behavior patterns to reconsider the choices they are making. Most parents remark that their children seem very healthy in comparison to the way they looked when they were at home.
5. Inadequate Educational Standards: The United States based Northwest Association of Colleges as Schools attests to the educational standards at the Academy at Dundee Ranch by providing full accreditation. Our program is "self paced". Students are guided and encouraged to progress at a rate that best suits their individual academic needs. Please note that the' International Convention on the Rights of the Child' fully affirms the right of each family to select a nontraditional educational approach that suits the individual needs of the child. Many ADR and WWASP students who failed in traditional learning environments have thrived within the educational framework we provide, and have gone on to pursue additional studies and successful careers.
6. Physical Abuse of Students: The Academy at Dundee Ranch policy about physical abuse and restraint is very clear. Under no circumstance is a student to be hurt in any way. We do have something called "Observation Placement" and "Work Sheets", described and highlighted in the attached staff manual. In the event that harm is alleged, an incident report is generated and reviewed by the senior management group. These reports are absolutely available for your review. In fact, we respectfully request that your office consider receiving such reports at the time they are generated, and conducting an independent investigation if you deem that meritorious. This is an area of particular concern for us at ADR, given the historical patterns of dishonesty, abuse and violence at home that many students experience prior to enrolling at ADR.
7. Questions Regarding ADR's Compliance with Costa Rican Laws and Regulations: The Academy at Dundee Ranch is dedicated to providing care of the highest possible quality to students and families. We embrace regulatory guidance as an opportunity to enhance the quality of our service to others. Clearly, there has been confusion around expectations held by PANI, MEP and MS. You may recall that authorities at ADR came to see you prior to opening ADR. We were told in no uncertain terms that as an American corporation, serving American students, there were no Costa Rican laws that would apply to our operations. We have no objections whatsoever to working within the framework of Costa Rican laws and regulations. We respectfully request that you guide us to appropriate codes and rules.
The Academy at Dundee Ranch ownership group, staff and an informal advisory board (comprised of parents and community members) clearly understands that conditions at the school appear harsh at first glance. This program, based on a model operating successfully in multiple locations, is rigorous by design. We invite you to consider the very special needs of the population we serve. Students at ADR come from a variety of backgrounds and present with a diversity of problems. One constant is clear. These children were in very deep trouble before they arrived at Dundee. They failed to respond in any kind of normal or typical way to interventions provided by caring and well-intentioned individuals within a multitude of systems and institutions. In spite of near heroic efforts, they refused to accept help offered by families, schools, churches and other religious organizations, the criminal justice system, mental health service providers and more. Children are typically are depressed and self-loathing when they arrive at ADR, as evidenced by a history of dangerous and self-denigrating behaviors that clearly indicate very poor self-esteem and myriad other problems. It is common for parents of boys and girls at Academy at Dundee Ranch and sister WWASP programs around the globe to claim, "This program saved my child's life!" Many parents have told me that they thought the above-mentioned claim was a wild exaggeration when they first heard it, and now concur without hesitation.
Unusual conditions require unusual responses. One thing is clear, and reflected hundreds of times over in student and parent testimonials. This program, as difficult as it initially appears, works wonders once participants make the choice to engage and embrace new opportunities. Graduates of ADR and other WAASP programs - people who were once considered "hopeless" by mainstream society - now look forward to bright futures as they bring the tools they have learned to their own lives, families and communities.
I have taken the liberty of enclosing a copy of the handbook we provide to all families prior to the enrollment of their son or daughter at ADR. I'm sure that it will be evident to you that we communicate clearly and unambiguously with our families about what they can and should expect from our program. They know that conditions will be challenging (although never abusive) for the kids until the kids decide that it is time to regain control of their lives and create the positive results they know they deserve. Without exception, parents make an informed choice to place their children in our environment. Additionally, parents have a right to remove their children from the program at any time if they feel that the environment is not well suited to the needs of the child.
In closing, I urge you to consider the following as you determine the next steps in this investigation. Sometimes the patterns of avoidance, manipulation and blame are deeply ingrained in families, and could be factors that contributed to the need to place the child in a n unfamiliar environment to begin with. I f eel strongly t hat all voices need to be heard, and all factors need to be considered. I also encourage you, in your capacity of guardian of the rights and well being of children, to consider the possibility that complaints your office may receive are a reflection of the underlying problems that created the situation in which parents sought program placement for their children.
Thank you again for your concern about our children. We truly look forward to a collaborative relationship that will better conditions and outcomes for all.
With Deep Respect and Gratitude,
Narvin Litchfield,
President / CEO
Academy at Dundee Ranch
I was having lunch out in the driveway with Eva at about 12:45 when several vehicles pulled up. About 20 people came on to campus. One truck blocked the driveway so people could not enter or exit by car. An armed, non-uniformed officer stayed with that car. I eventually learned that the people present represented the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Education, PANI and the District Attorney?s office. (Note ? I personally asked many of these people who they were and most, including Fernando Vargas, Fiscal de Atenas refused to provide that information) A small group of people went to talk with staff about the Nicole Deniken case. Another group of two uniformed officers and a videographer wandered around campus shooting lots of footage.
At about 3:15, Nicole was called into the office. A judge was present. I did not experience what was going on first hand. I was told (by Nicole later that afternoon, in addition to staff members) that Nicole stated that she had not been abused, felt that she had benefited from the program and wished to stay. Nicole was allowed to stay on campus.
Shortly before 4:00, staff members were told to bring all the kids to the dining hall. They (staff) were instructed to stand 50 meters away during the discussion. A group of armed police officers assured that staff kept their distance. I approached a woman from PANI. I do not know her name. I explained that I am the mother of a child in the program and that I do not work for the program. I asked her for permission to stay with the kids and she consented. Mr. Fernando Vargas approached me and told me to leave. I refused, explaining my role and reason for being present. He shook his finger in my face and yelled ?Mommy, you get the hell out of here!? I left and went to the office of the female family reps, where I called the emergency line at the American Embassy and began reporting what I was seeing. Less than ten minutes after Mr. Vargas began to speak to the kids, the upper level students emerged from the room. The lower level students were given paper to write down all of their complaints. According to some upper levels, Mr. Vargas informed all the kids that the school was operating in violation of Costa Rican laws. He allegedly told the students that they were free to leave whenever they wanted to, that they did not have to maintain separation of boys and girls, that they could not be forced to maintain silence, that their right to communicate with parents could not be restricted in any way, that they could not be physically restrained by staff and that upper level students could not have authority to direct or discipline them. I have heard conflicting reports about exactly what students were told about leaving the campus. Some students said that they believed PANI would take them out if they wanted to go home. Others thought they heard that they could just go off on their own.
This meeting ended at about 4:15. I saw kids pour out of the dining hall onto the front driveway area. I heard kids yelling and crying. I saw kids pick up large sticks and broom handles. I observed upper level students attempting to calm lower level students. Shortly after the kids were released from the dining hall, an armed officer, motioned (and yelled in Spanish) for me to get off the phone. I hung up.
The officials who had come onto campus at 12:45 left at about 4:30. My interpretation of what happened is that they saw the chaos they had created and didn?t want to face it. At that point kids were pretty hysterical. Many had run away, others had broken into storage and taken things. I saw a boy and a girl out in a field together behind the girls dorms. It looked to me like they were having sex. I saw a girl punch a hole through the shower in the girl?s dormitory and cut her arm. There was a total lack of order. Boys and girls were together. Staff and upper levels were trying hard to calm kids down and regain some semblance of order, but were not successful at that time. At some point, they began to tell kids who wanted to run that they were free to leave.
My experience of what happened over the next few hours is that the situation calmed, but everyone was still really confused about what had happened and what was going to happen. Some kids who had run away came back. I have heard that the kids were locked in their dorms. I can not confirm that.
Between 4:30 and 9:30 I had conversations with dozens of kids. At one point I followed a girl down the road, asking her what she was doing ? where she thought she was going with no passport, no money, no food. She didn?t even have shoes on! She told me that she was going to get paid for ?giving head?, just like at home and that is how she intended to survive. Other kids who were running told me that they didn?t have a clue about where they were going ? they just were getting out now that a person in an official capacity had given permission. Some kids who ran and came back told me that they had done some pretty horrendous things while they were gone including stealing and hurting other people. I saw some kids smoking cigarettes. One boy told me that the police had given him cigarettes.
Parents of kids who had been out on day passes began to return to the facility at about 8:30. I think most of them took their kids back out for the night because they were concerned about their safety.
I spoke with Ken and Glenda from WWASP in the early evening and explained what I had witnessed. I was finally able to post on the BBS about 9:00.
The strategy about responding to these events was not clear. I experienced a lack of unity amongst the staff and owners (actually, Narvin was out of town but Flory was present). There was no clear alignment about how or what to communicate with parents, for example. I spoke to several senior team members who indicated their belief that this would blow over and that they should not alarm parents unnecessarily.
I left the school for San Jose at about 9:30 or 10:00 that night, once I felt that the kids remaining had settled down and would be safe during the night. Prior to leaving, I made arrangements to have six kids, representing the various levels, join me in San Jose the next morning to visit with media and various government officials to share a different perspective of the story. I believe staff contacted the parents to obtain their permission for the kids to go with me.
Wednesday May 21, 2003
I was shocked and upset to see the feature story in the newspaper ?Al Dia?. The front cover said ESCAPE in huge letters, and there was a photo of kids taking off down the road. The headline on page three said ?Maltreatment of Youth Has Been Confirmed?. There were more pictures too. I asked the clerk at the front desk of the hotel to translate for me. It seems like the story is biased and highly inaccurate.
I spoke with Flory at about 9:00. She was still on campus. She reported that the situation was much calmer than it had been the night before. She said that all of the kids were being asked to sign an agreement indicating their willingness to stay at Dundee voluntarily and abide by program rules. I believe she said that the kids who would not sign the agreement would be separated from the rest of the group while the school made arrangements for their transfer to another WWASP program, or trip home.
The six kids (Eva, Blake, Leticia, John, Joel and Steven) arrived in San Jose at about 10:30. We set out to tell our perspective on events.
The American Embassy was very open to what we have to say. We met with a woman named Leyla Ones. She reported that many US Embassy personnel are on the ADR campus today trying to sort out the situation. My experience is that they are investing a great deal of time and energy in their effort to protect the interests of kids and parents. Unfortunately, their hands are tied because they are here at the invitation of the Costa Rican government and must support Costa Rican Laws.
Channel 7 (Teletica) featured a story about our situation on the 6:00 pm news. The kids did a great job, especially Johel who was the spokesperson. The story was in Spanish so I didn't understand it all, but it seemed fair and neutral.
We spent quite a bit of time with Tim Rogers and a guy named Brian from the Tico Times. They seemed extremely interested in hearing our perspective in the story. Again, the kids were in full support of the program and testified that their lives have been saved by what they experienced there.
Our most troubling visit was with Ana Leon at PANI. PANI is like child protective services. She described herself as the "Technical Director" of PANI. She affirmed that PANI had been investigating the case of the young woman whose non-custodial parent wants her out of the program. She also affirmed that PANI had written a letter to Dundee outlining 15 points of concern, and giving the school 30 days to fix the problems. That is the letter I described earlier. Ms. Leon also said that what happened yesterday was not the intention of PANI. She stated that the responsibility for the way it was handled could be placed on the shoulders of Fernando Vargas. I'm not sure who he is. I have heard him described as a district attorney, federal prosecutor and judge. He was the person who refused to allow me to stay in the room when he spoke to the kids yesterday.
Ms. Leon told us that PANI would be back at school at about 9:00 tomorrow morning. She said that there is a court order (written by Mr. Vargas I believe) stating that Dundee must fully comply with all Costa Rica laws immediately. As I understand it, that means that the program as it exists now will cease to function. Boys and girls will intermingle, communication can not be restricted in any way, at any time, school can not be self paced, no OP and worksheets, etc... Ms. Leon initially told us that the purpose of tomorrow's visit (all media I talked to will be there by the way) is for PANI to take custody of all the kids. Later in the conversation she got intentionally vague about that. I don't know what will happen.
I spoke with Flory at Dundee at about 4:00. She sounded frightened. I was left with the impression that things are not yet under control. I informed her about our conversation with Ana Leon at PANI.
It was about 6:30 when we got back to our hotel. A family who had been enjoying a level 4 visit with their son was there. Their son was with them too. They had decided to pull him from Dundee. I honestly don?t remember if they were planning to transfer him to another program or not. The parents and child described a disturbing situation on campus. I'm not going to repeat exactly what they said since I did not witness it first hand. I will say that their information, coupled with my own observations and experiences, caused me to decide not to return the kids to the school that night.
Thursday, May 22, 2002
The kids and I were disappointed but not surprised to see more unfavorable press coverage this morning.
A van picked the kids up at about 8:00. I left the hotel about a half hour later. We met up at the Dundee gate at about 10:30. PANI was not there yet.
Most of the kids who were with me yesterday had not gone on to the campus because they were afraid. Some said that they thought ?non-working? kids still present on campus might retaliate against them because they had defended the program. Staff who were present assured them that they would be safe on campus, and they returned.
Narvin and Flory were also at the gate when I arrived. They were talking to Tim Rogers of the Tico Times. They were on their way to the court in Atenas, where Mr. Vargas is the D.A. (or something like that). I invited myself to tag along with them. I think the purpose of the visit was to meet up with the attorneys for the school, and register the relationship with the court.
As a side note, I never went onto the campus before going to Atenas. I gave a member of the staff the key to my rental car just to move the car inside. I mention this only because the car was gone when I got back, my suitcase had been left in front of the office and no one seemed to know what happened, at least at first. I think that is indicative of the level of general pandemonium on campus. The care was eventually returned around 8:00 that evening.
Before the legal proceedings began, I spoke privately with Mr. Fernando Vargas. He told me that the responsibility for what happened on Tuesday belonged to PANI. He denied that he ordered PANI to take custody of the kids, but said that they might take custody of the program. He said he had no idea when that might happen. He restated that there was an open investigation and that the school had 30 days to comply with Costa Rican law as described in the letter that had been delivered to ADR on Monday. He advised me to take my daughter out of the school right away. I asked him what I should tell other parents. He suggested the same message. He denied that he said ?Mommy, get the hell out of here? to me on Tuesday. I told him that while I appreciated a series of checks and balances to assure the safety of our children, I had not witnessed anything remotely resembling abuse on campus. I said that I thought the action taken by government officials ? convening 200 troubled kids, before the conclusion of a formal investigation, telling them that they could leave at any time and that they did not have to follow most of the rules if they stayed ? was bordering on abusive. I also said that I thought it was very irresponsible for officials to leave as soon as the kids began to riot. In a mocking tone, with a laugh, he told me that I could try to sue him.
Narvin and Flory and their attorneys met in the court with Mr. Vargas at about 11:45. Narvin invited me in and Mr. Vargas said I could not come in. There was a screen and not a wall dividing the two spaces, so I listened to the conversation. Narvin was being asked for identifying information. It sounded very formal. Someone was transcribing. I heard Mr. Vargas listing off charges or accusations that might be brought against Narvin, pending the outcome of the investigation. Again, it sounded very formal. They were instructed by Mr. Vargas to be back at a certain time (I think they said 4:00) that afternoon. I?m not clear what the purpose of a return visit was supposed to be.
On the way back to ADR I asked Raphael Garcia, one of Narvin?s attorneys, about the legality of the document the kids were asked to sign, indicating their willingness to stay in the program and abide by the structure. He said that if the structure was not in compliance with Costa Rican law, ADR couldn?t implement the structure even if it is what the kids want.
Also on the way back to campus, we saw a van full of Dundee kids heading in the direction of San Jose. Multiple people told me that those were kids who refused to sign the consent document and had been temporarily housed in the area that was to become the high impact part of the facility. I mention this only because that van was apparently turned around by officials and ordered back to Dundee. I observed about a dozen boys in the van from about 2:30 until officials left at least six or seven hours later. I was not allowed to go and talk with them. I don?t know if their basic needs were being met.
Multiple media representatives including Letta Tayler from Newsday, the folks from Teletica, Tico Times, Al Dia and others were on or immediately outside of campus when we got back around 2:00. After briefly checking conditions on campus (strangely silent and calm), I stayed at the road talking to reporters about my experiences. My daughter was with me, sharing her perspective too. PANI arrived a short time later. Fernando Vargas and crew arrived shortly after that. The police used crime scene tape to block the road in front of the facility. No one could go in or out.
I?m not totally clear about what happened during the next several hours. Most Dundee people seemed concerned and confused. Officials were in the school offices. They ultimately loaded file cabinets full of kids records and facility computers onto a truck. Shortly after the group of officials arrived, a mom who had just flown in from Houston arrived on campus. I know that she and her daughter spoke to the media too.
That mom (Karyn) and I both exchanged strong words with Mr. Vargas, particularly around the passport issue. It seems that he had intended to take the kid?s passports too. We were able to get passports belonging to our kids. Several people, including staff members, were able to prevail and assure that no passports were removed from campus with the other documents.
As much as I wished for the chaos to subside and everything to return to ?normal?, I experienced the situation as out of control and irreparable. I concluded for myself that the program could not function effectively under this much distress.
At about 3:30 or 4:00 I told Narvin that I had decided to pull Eva out of Dundee. I told him that I absolutely trust the program and the staff. My daughter has thrived in this environment. She thinks she would be pregnant and homeless if not dead had she not come to Dundee. I also told Narvin that based on the events of the past few days; I could not trust the Costa Rican government with my daughter?s safety.
I was able to contact my husband by phone at around the same time. I asked him to please get on the BBS and tell parents that things were not OK. I told him that I believed the place was under siege.
Throughout the afternoon and into the evening the staff was trying to maintain calm. For the most part, kids were kept away from the office area. My experience as I walked around campus is that kids were feeling very unsafe and concerned. Kids reported all kinds of damage, mostly to property, and threats to person. Many were asking what would happen next.
At about 8:00 Ana Leon from PANI, Narvin and Narvin?s attorney Raphael Garcia spoke to the kids. I thought that the information they provided was incomplete because the situation was chaotic and no one really knew what was going to happen. They told the kids that they (kids) were allowed to leave Dundee by coordinating with parents and family representatives. Ana Leon from PANI said that she would not be removing kids from the facility tonight. Narvin and Mr. Garcia said that the investigation would probably yield nothing and ultimately operations would return to normal. I thought the words of Mr. Garcia were especially moving. He talked about feeling ashamed about the way officials of his country had acted in this situation.
The plan was to have a movie night and settle the kids down.
Then Narvin got arrested (I have heard that part of the issue is that he was not back in Atenas at 4:00, as agreed, even though Mr. Vargas was on campus and not available to meet him). That happened at about 8:15. The kids went wild all over again. At that point, Flory declared that the school could not stay open now and the Family Reps should start making arrangements to get kids out. I?m not totally sure what happened over the next few hours. It was really crazy. More parents were on campus, kids were desperate to get to the phone (there are only two international lines on campus and those were not working all the time)
Please note that the telephone company in Costa Rica was on strike when all this was going on.
It was close to 10:00 when I left with Eva and three other kids. Things were sort of beginning to calm down.
Friday, May 23, 2003
I was up most of the night talking with parents who are terribly worried about their kids. Information about where all the kids are and what will happen next is, in my opinion, still unclear. I don?t think it could be anything but unclear at this point.
At about 10:30 I dropped one boy at the airport for a flight to Miami. I then went to return the rental car. I was chased by a police officer on a motorcycle. I couldn?t understand what he said. I am not aware that I was breaking a law.
Our plane took off just after 1:00. There were 40 ? 50 Dundee kids in the airport at that time, headed to a variety of destinations.
There are zillions of other details I could share about what transpired. Most of them don?t matter very much. I?m available to answer questions about my experience. I don?t know all the answers. I especially can?t answer questions that begin with the word ?Why?. This whole situation has been traumatic for just about everyone who experienced it, whether they were physically present or not. I?ve just finished transcribing the last of my notes on Wednesday May 28th. I?m still feeling pretty shocked and dazed.
I know that a lot of parents were frustrated by spotty and rapidly changing messages about the situation. Please don't go to blame. Those of us who were present could not figure out what was going on much of the time, let alone convey it immediately to others.
I wish to acknowledge that Narvin, Flory and the entire staff have worked tirelessly throughout this fiasco to protect our kids and their program. The family representatives were amazing! In my book, these people are heroes. My weeks on campus assured me that Dundee personnel love our kids and stand very powerfully them.
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More program crap.
I don't care if the parents like the program.
I want to hear in ten years or so what the kids who were in it have to say about it.
If the kids aren't allowed written communications with anyone they choose---particularly friends, neighbors, and relatives other than the parents---that's abusive right there.
I don't know if the kids' mail to third parties was cut off or not, but that's my litmus test for a program with enough contact with the outside world to avoid the induction of Stockholm Syndrome.
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Stop wasting your time here, first anon. Your kind is going down!!
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I entered Dundee Ranch Academy of Costa Rica in the month of April of 2002. My name is [withheld by ISAC]. My mother sent me to Dundee Ranch Academy for drug abuse and to rebuild a relationship with my family. It didn't take very long for me to realize how harsh and strict the program was. I couldn't understand the concept of rules like not being aloud to speak to one another. How am I suppose to deal emotional issues if I'm not allowed to talk? Wheres the sense in that? Even in prisons the residents are allowed to speak with one another. What had I done that deserved to have my privilege to speak taken? At Dundee Ranch they had different punishments for these unnecessary rules. One was "worksheets."It was extremely easy to receive a day in worksheets. In worksheets you eat a plate of beans and rice for your meals. You sit in a chair facing the wall in a little hot room forced to write three thousand words or more depending on the violation. I myself once spent four days in worksheets having to write 54,000 words. On top of that I spent a week in Observational Placement. "O.P." This punishment could be days to weeks to months. Ive seen kids waste a full month in this place. It is a concrete room where you sit in three different positions for 12 hours a day and once again you eat nothing but beans and rice for every meal.
The positions were sitting Indianstyle, standing, or laying on your stomach. Always having your hands behind your back and facing the wall. If in "OP" you violated these positions you were most likely open to be restrained. I saw kids in "OP" go threw exercise where the Jamaicans would make them do jump n' jacks until they fell to the ground and cried. I often heard kids screaming and begging for who ever to stop hurting them. Even though I wasn't in "OP" to see the abuse a lot of the times, hearing it can also go a long way. The emotional abuse to me is indescribable. I once stopped Mr. Kenny the Director at the time, and told him I wanted to talk to someone and needed help. He responded by saying " There is no more help boy, your ass is mine." He then turned and walked away. All these things were emotionally hard on me. Physically, concerns for my condition were thrown out the window. For four months I was put in a storage space which was called the "Bat Cave." It was about the size of a large closet. Twelve kids could be put in this small space. Literally kids were on top of each other. Living conditions were grossly over crowded. One time a kid got pink eye. After a week a third of the kids had it. I was fed hardly anything mostly beans and rice. I entered the program at 143 pounds. When I left I weighed in at about 120 pounds. In only four months. Talk about eating light. For those looking to lose weight try eating only three small meals of rice a day , and if you get hungry throughout the rest of the day drink from your bottle of water. I once got a ear infection in my right ear. It got so bad that it hurt when I swallowed. I told the staff but they never did anything for me. Some didn't even understand because they didn't speak English. The administration acted to important to talk to me. After a month I saw the doctor. He gave me ear drops and it took weeks for the ear to stop hurting. I now can notice that in my right ear I've lost some hearing. I only notice it though when wearing head phones. I also once got very sick at night and started vomiting and having diarea which was followed by a full body rash. I staggered out to the night staff who saw my condition and called the nurse. She hooked me up to an IV and gave me a shot, then sent me back to bed. I was told I had the Costa Rican flu. When I wrote my mother emails about the situation they were for some reason mysteriously never sent. She eventually received a written letter about it from me a month later, and when she asked why she wasn't told about it they said it was only a small allergic reaction to eating a tomato. WHAT Tomato? This was blatant lying and manipulation to a parent. I no longer cared about what I said to my mother because they would always be there to disprove me. I became institutionalized and had no concept of local and world news, or time. Every day was the same. Nothing ever changed. Events could take place and a week later you couldn't remember when it happened. I had only spent four months in this place and my mind was traumatized by these things. I feel great sadness and sorrow for kids who've spent a year in this place. For my friends and other kids who were still in there when I left, I just want to say I never stopped praying for you.
Academy at Dundee Ranch Statement C: From a Student Present During the Riot
During my two and a half month stay in Costa Rica at Dundee ranch academy I have seen many cases of mistreatment and abuse placed towards the students that attend the academy, many of which could have been very easily avoided if the government was doing their jobs and stopping all of this nonsense the moment it was brought to their attention but that didn?t happen instead they decided kids are in programs for lying and even when the evidence is in front of they?re faces, they chose to claim they were blind. If people were doing the right thing and actually doing their own jobs, none, and I mean none of this would have happened. I am and will get my point and opinion across to you - I am absolutely furious that this had happened, it is not just NARVIN LICHFIELD?s fault this is the people who let this pass, any one who has seen some one hit, yelled at in a violent way, harm a student in any way shape or form, and not say a word about it ,should have to pay the price even if its as high as Narvin?s. The reason why this makes me so angry is because the U.S. embassy has known for as long as this so called academy has been opened that there has been cases of abuse, tempted suicides, food poisoning and other serious mistreatments and I doubt any thing has been reported.
I have seen Conrad hit throw and choke students. I witnessed Conrad hit [a female student] and then she had fallen to her knees crying. The nurses give us many shots and pills for unknown reasons. After the riot I was given two small white pills. Our food there is not worth eating; there were bugs, bone, plastic, and rocks in our daily meals. The showers I would have to say are the vilest; there was always dirty cloths, mud, garbage in the shower stalls, I have even opened my shower to find human feces inside. The showers are rather cold and it doesn?t help out much when my skin is filled with oil from smelly gold soap (soap that?s not anti-bacterial). I was sent to o.p. a lot, I had to stand for hours with two minute brakes in between each half hour. When you?re in o.p. or worksheets you get less food in your meals than everybody else receives. I?ve never been restrained but I have seen others be restrained. At least every other day, you hear screams from [name withheld], a fourteen year old boy, who was always being restrained. Everybody calls him [name withheld]. He has marks and bruises up and down his arms and legs from being "restrained." These people take advantage of calling it restraints it?s more like beating the kids, people who work there try to cover everything up with lies and bribes. Most of the time after being restrained kids get thrown in the pool, its kid of a sick game they watch the kid try to swim - you see after being restrain all of the muscles in the arms and legs has been stretched so the muscles are very stiff. They didn?t take care of any of the animals there either they had dogs with ticks running around and cats with some disease with blotches missing from their necks and backs. The smallest dog that was always running around was picked on by the boys, they have thrown him in the pool and swings him in circles by his legs and drops him on his back. Staff has given other kids permission to restrain other kids who were in the lower levels. On the last days I was there they had upper levels trying to keep the kids in order and they were beating kids with sticks and hitting them in their faces. I hated Dundee. During the riot the staff allowed other students to take my belongings.
Academy at Dundee Ranch Statement D: From a Student who Left the Facility Shortly Before it was Closed by Costa Rican Authorities
I entered Dundee Ranch Academy in Costa Rica in May 2002. I was sent to the program for abusing drugs and having a poor relationship with my family. I noticed the program was very strict but was determined to work it to try to better myself as a person but I gave up on myself when I was dropped from a high Level 2 with 1500 points to Level 1 0 points because I was wearing 2 shirts when I had permission because the fabric was bothering my skin. I was given a Category 4 "Layering". They don't let kids layer because they think that they will try to run away. When I was given the Cat 4 "Layering" I was sent to Observation Placement for 3 days. While I was in Observation placement I was restrained for my first time. I turned my head while I was laying face down with my chin on the ground and one of the staff named Mr. Kenny came in and put his knee in my back and put my arm behind me and started pushing it up until it touched the back of my head .I had so much pressure on my back that I couldn't breathe. From that day on I really found what the program was about. A week later I was in the Family Representative office and I saw a list saying ten rules for family reps. Rule # 1 said to always talk on the offensive side with your family. Rule #2 said to always keep parents away from the facility. Rule # 3 said to always encourage parents to have their kids graduate. I was in the program 11 months and only saw one kid graduate the program. I don't feel that a kid has to graduate the program in order to change his/her life. I left the program on Level 1 while in Observation Placement and feel that I have changed my life a lot. While in Observation Placement the food is Rice and Beans for every meal. That is the same thing with a place called worksheets. They send you to worksheets for talking or breaking little rules. They have categories from 1-5. Cat 4's and 5's and you have to do time in Observation Placement. I've walked around the pool at Dundee Ranch Academy for 2 weeks straight before because I didn't want to stay on silence and cooperate with the program. We would have exercises/punishments where they would make us squat with our arms out and I would start shaking. I would sometimes give up but then I would get restrained by the Jamaicans until I agreed to continue on with the punishments. I would get so much sun on my back that I would have blisters and couldn't sleep. I slept in a "Batcave" with no A/C for 11 months. It was very hard to sleep at night because of the heat. The heat was from the other bodies around us because we would sleep in a very small room with a lot of kids piled on top of each other. We once took a facility picture and Mr. Narvin Litchfeld told us to say "Money" while he took the picture. Once I was in Observation Placement and a kid named [withheld by ISAC] was put into the same room as me because he was stabbing his wrists with a big thorn that he found off a tree. I was talking to him and got in trouble from the staff. I told the staff that a kid like this doesn't need to be in here and he didn't respond. The US Embassy from San Jose did come into Observation Placement while I was in there and questioned me. I told them how things were being ran around here and they told me they were going to call my Dad but never did. I was really hoping that they would call him. One of my good friends [withheld by ISAC] was beat on April 1, 2003 so bad that he threw up on himself and urinated on himself. Later that day the President of WWASP Ken Kay came to visit and [the child] showed him what happened and Ken Kay took pictures of his bruises on his back. [The child?s] face was swollen for the next few days. Some of us went through a lot of abuse while at Dundee Ranch Academy, but I do have to say that my stay at Dundee Ranch helped me. I don't agree with the way they treated us at all. I feel that they could have done things differently and not try to intimidate he kids so much. It was scary for me at times being there. I left the program on April 16, 2003, on Level 1 Like I said, but I feel that I've came farther then a lot of other people who've made it farther in the program then me.
Academy at Dundee Ranch Statement E: From a Former Student
I was sent to Dundee Ranch "Academy" late 2001 and spent 9 months there. I was almost 16 years old. At home, I was not doing anything with my life, but most importantly, I was refusing to go to school. My parents came to the conclusion that DRA was the best choice of a school, as the way that they advertised it, it was ideal for me. They thought that I was going to a school where I would learn Spanish, be in an accelerated academic situation, and have an opportunity to become immersed in a different culture that I had never experienced. Little did they know that DRA was not what they expected.
When I first got there, I was kind of in shock with what just happened. Imagine your whole life becoming flipped around, and becoming thrown into a situation where the only thing to keep you going was your own mind. Luckily I have always had a strong state of mind, and isolation had little effect on me, as I grew up in a rural area. I was the 9th boy to go there, and the place was not even close to being up and running. Within my first day, I was told that I had to work on the dorms. Keep in mind that the dorms at that time were a few hotel rooms, with a "hallway" running to the outside. There was no door to it, and was open to everything. In other words, we had a room in the middle of a construction site, in the middle of the jungle. During school time, every other day, 5 boys would go to the dorms and work on taking out these blocks of concrete with a pick and mallet. It took about three weeks of daily work to finish this. The thing that bothered me the most about this is the fact that kids were sent there, and for the most part had to build their own dorms during school time while the workers swept the floor and gave you little pointers on how to take chunks of concrete out. To give you a good idea of the kind of work we were doing, I got 3 decent sized scars on my hands from the concrete chucks flying off. Luckily our eyes didn't get hurt; no goggles were ever given to us to wear. We also worked on other buildings. It isn?t the point that I didn?t want to do the work, it is the fact that I was taken out of school for this, and that was one of the main reasons I was there, or so my parents thought. But anyway, on to the rest of my stay.
First I need to say how the chronological order of everything in your life gets quite twisted around, and there was no difference from one day to another. Its funny how when the weather relatively stays the same day in and day out, combined with a rigorous schedule, it can make you loose track of the order things happened when trying to look back. Everything in my mind is events, and not the typical story that the mind usually remembers things in. Due to this, it is sometimes hard to recall intricate details about things, but the general event is still there.
School when I got there for the most part was nonexistent. They had no clue what I was supposed to do, so they asked if I had taken health, and since I hadn't they gave me a book and some requirements. There were no teachers around, just the "family father," the person in charge of the group of kids. Luckily he used to teach English in the states somewhere, but when it came to other subjects you were pretty much on your own. The way the system worked, was that if you didn't understand something one of the other kids could tutor you, but what if you didn't know that you didn't get something? There wasn't a teacher there to ask you questions on things and make sure that you understood the material. Luckily again, I had always been a fan of independent study, and I love to read. The school was perfect for me, yet other kids struggled. I could understand how hard for them it could be just having a book thrown at you and then being told that you have to learn this and pass all the tests. There were many kids there with learning disabilities. The one thing that got to me the most while trying to do school work, was the fact that if I looked up from my book into the swamp, where the school was located, I would get in trouble. School was two hours long with no breaks, and try concentrating on a school book for that long without being able to stretch or look around. All of these concerns were addressed at a later time, and things were set up to help you, yet they never worked out.
One of the biggest things that DRA stressed was the need for consistency in ones life. Wow, what a bunch of hypocrites. I don't think that the "setup" of that place stayed the same for a maximum of two months, IF THAT. A rule book was set up, but a few weeks later things were twisted around like crazy. On the rule book topic, here's what I found quite amusing: This book has all the rules on what you can and can not do, and what staff can and can not do. Sounds good. Somewhat like a constitution for the place, right? WRONG. One key sentence was placed at the end of every rulebook we got: ALL RULES ARE AT STAFF DISCRETION. Well, so much for the constitution idea? For example, kids must be present at school, no exceptions. Well, apparently there is a lack of manpower in Costa Rica, or money from the owner to pay them because kids were pulled out of school all the time to do work projects, myself included. That is just one instance. If I took every example of what was twisted around, you probably wouldn't be reading this letter right now, as I?d still is writing it.
Observational Placement. OP. By far one of the most heated topics in the whole WWASP fiasco. First off on this topic, I must say that I have never been placed in there, so I have no grudge against what goes on in there because I never got the brunt of it. On the other hand, I have seen what has come of things in there. I have never seen the famous "boot-in-the-face" incidents that I constantly here of on the anti-WWASP websites, but I have seen what has come of the events in there. To put it into an analogy, take the present conflict in Iraq. I'm sure you've seen the pictures of the bombed out buildings, and watched the live footage of Baghdad being bombed. Sometimes you couldn't see the explosions, but you could surely hear them. In other words, not being able to see the event doesn't mean that it never happened. The same thing applies to OP. If we heard something that was going on, we were not allowed to look. Turning your head would get yourself in trouble. The after effects for the most part point to what happened. I have never seen any slams, punches, etc.? but I have heard it and seen things from it. Things such as people's arms in slings, after having their arm jacked up behind their back to their ear. In the rulebook, it states that physical restraint (butt-kicking in other terms) will only be used if the subject is in a position where he will harm himself or others. Limited physical contact is supposed to be used. Yet as I said before, ALL RULES ARE AT STAFF DISCRETION. People would be "restrained" in OP if they wouldn't shut up, moved their position when they were not supposed to or for the most part wouldn't listen to what the staff member was telling them to do. There are only two incidents where I have seen a kid in a position where he can hurt himself or someone else. One of them ended in a kid falling two or so stories while attempting to commit suicide, and the other with a kid smashing his head into a wall because of the extreme depression he was in. This is something that hurts to see. A kid with problems, not getting help, REAL help. I can understand the frustration that the staff members go through with a refusing kid, but shouldn't they be secure enough with their emotions before being in charge of troubled teens with no control of their emotions? As an ?upper level? kid, I was often asked to watch kids in O.P.. I would use my kind of leadership, reasoning and logic. I was often put down for this. I was held back from advancement by this. I was expected to scream and yell at the lower levels. This was against my beliefs. I was in the Civil Air Patrol before I went to Dundee. This is a youth branch of the Air Force and I learned many different ways to lead. I was criticized with my way of leadership and told that it was not how you are to lead. This later bit me when I could not move up the levels because I didn?t conform to what they wanted. I have learned in my not so many years, that you can get more accomplished if you lead in a civil and fair way, as opposed to screaming, threats and intimidation
Another heated topic that I hear a lot about is the whole mental abuse thing. I'm not sure what the actual definition of it is, but in my opinion, it happens quite a bit down there. We were offered no current events. I went to Dundee right after 911. History is a passion, and I was not allowed any contact with the outside world. This was abuse to me. In jail, you are at least allowed to read a paper. The only things I would learn, are from my parents on our calls. My parents complained, and we eventually got 2 year old reader digests that were donated. Some schooling!
We were not allowed to talk except during very restricting times. I understand the whole concept of it, and how it is supposed to keep the conspiring of lower level kids down (running away and other assorted "don't do's"), but have they ever wondered what a kid on a lower lever for a year or so goes through? I'm sure it sounded good on paper to them, but I bet Hitler thought his plans looked good too. In general, teenagers should not be placed in a situation where they are surrounded by 20 other kids, and they can't talk to them, let alone even use hand signals. I've seen many kids break down because this rule combined with many other rules is too much for them. Like me, not all of these kids were in that much trouble back home. Why were we in something that was worse than prison? Because they lied to our parents as to what was going on. If I said something to my Mom or Dad, they would question the staff. The answer they got was that I was manipulating them to come home. Wow, was that frustrating. Luckily, my parents did not go to all the adult seminars and get manipulated into thinking that the program was the best thing in the world for their child, and that it was not OK to question. They were told that there was a music department at the school. They had to fight for me to even be able to get a guitar and be able to have the time to play it. I could play at night for a little while, while everyone was trying to fall asleep. It was hard leaving when my parents came to get me, knowing that the rest of the kids there would not have something so simple in their lives as listening to something that they loved while trying to stay sane. There is nothing normal down there. Your teenage years are non existent, lost.
Other strict rules include keeping your feet together no matter how or where you are sitting. In school, as I said before, you can?t take your eyes off of the book, and the feet "on task" (as they liked to call it) didn't help your school much. Their reasoning behind this is discipline, and little things like this lead to great things. BS! Little things like this lead to ankle cramps, low concentration and overall irritability in school! Tell me how having your feet together takes you out of your life of drugs, sex, crime or whatever you're there for. I do believe that this rule was taken away, but this has been a few times, and they always bring it back.
Seminars. Oh my god, what a bunch of bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo. All the seminars are just a popularity contest. They review all the work you've done in the past month (or two months in DRA's case) and that pretty much determines if you get through. Well, who are staffing the seminars you ask? Kids just like myself. Upper levels. Yes, there is a facilitator that's flown in and runs the seminar, but the upper levels pretty much tell him how you've done. Hmm, quite a sound system I must say. No checks and balances. So, if you are not on the upper levels good side there's a big chance you're not getting through. For the most part, people can fake their way through, with a combination of sucking up in-between the seminars. I could not advance because they said that I was hiding something. I admitted right off that I was lazy, smoking to much pot and not going to school. There were not any underlying, heavy mental problems that needed to come out. I was not abused, or in depression like some of the kids there. I needed a wake-up call and got one. I was very honest in the previous seminars but couldn?t pass one because I would have had to lie and make something up to get through it. I told my parents that I will not make it any further in the program because I would go against all our beliefs, and lie to get ahead. Great lesson! Many of the kids do this, and the parents think that their kids are ?getting the program? and are doing great.
I think back and realize that we were put in situations that were really not safe for us. When someone ran away, as an upper level, we were given flashlights and asked to go into the jungle at night to look for them. Not to smart when you know what is out there and what could happen to you. You did not question when someone asked you to do something. An incident like this occurred one night when a boy was missing. We searched everywhere and couldn?t find him. We were in the cafeteria when we heard a loud thump. He apparently jumped off the roof to commit suicide. It was explained later that he fell from a tree while trying to escape and that is why he had a sling on. You learned not to ask questions, even with your peers. You didn?t want to know anything because if it was wrong, you were in just as much trouble for knowing as they were for doing. I believe in positive peer pressure, this was actually negative peer pressure.
The food was O.K., but the water was dangerous. We all got sick often. They cut off the water, and we drank well water. We carried around water bottles that were sometimes months old. We just refilled them. Can?t imagine the bacteria in these containers after all that time in the hot jungle weather. They were gross. The sleeping conditions were not safe. We had up to 12 grown boys in a very small room. The bunks were three high and so small that you couldn?t even turn over. The doctor even admitted that the way they were set up, if one kid got sick, we all did. Scabies, rashes, not the best medical treatment there.
I did not leave the school grounds for 6 months, except to go get my passport. It would have been longer, but my parents came down and insisted that I be able to go out with them. They were lied to about this rule, and would not stand for it. I had been obeying the rules, and it probably would have been over 9 months before I would have been able to go off and actually have an activity. Maybe longer, because I wouldn?t lie and pass certain seminars that I needed to advance. There are some kids in these schools that have not been out in the world in over a year, often two. This is not healthy for a teenager. It is cruel.
Overall, DRA does some good, but in my opinion it does more bad then good. One of the main things they teach at Dundee is accountability. They need to practice what they preach. They lie to parents to make money. That is not accountable. I believe a spontaneous investigation is needed, without any notice to Dundee. The spontaneity is needed because when the staff would find out there is an investigation coming, the entire facility would stop whatever they are doing and clean everything up, and act like everything is all right. This happened often. I am actually an ?actor? in the tape that they have out there to market WWASP. We cleaned up the place, put on blazers that we never wore again and acted. We were in the cafeteria pretending we were in class, being tutored by teachers. They were family fathers not teachers. You can also see us walking in and out of the dorms. They didn?t show the crammed quarters inside. And best of all, you see us sitting around on couches talking and having a normal life. Funny, that was the first time that I had sat around on those couches. We actually looked like this was normal and that this was a pleasant time we were having. When the taping was over they took back the blazers and it was back to normal, which included never sitting around on those couches talking, that was not allowed.
You also have to interview kids that are at lower levels. The upper level kids won?t say anything, because they have resigned themselves into the mindset that they will do whatever they have to to get out. They will be in serious trouble if the staff or owner knows that they complained to anyone that may have a chance to cut off the money going into these schools. Their parents are usually so manipulated by WWASP, that the only thing that they can do is go along with it and get home. This does not necessarily mean that they have changed their whole life and way of thinking; it means that they have learned how to survive and play the game to go home. I am also concerned that they will be opening a new high impact at Dundee. How could it get any worse than these schools? I can?t imagine what will go on behind those walls. I would be scared for my child if they were to be sent there. They have absolutely no one to cry to.
I hope that this letter has been helpful for whatever it is needed for, and if anyone has any questions, I am open to answering all of them.
Academy at Dundee Ranch Statement F: From a Former Student
I arrived at Dundee on January 14th, 2002. I knew I was coming, but what I had expected was something totally different from what I got. I watched a sappy video of teary-eyed parents expressing their devotion to the program, and how it has changed their life so much and they would recommend anyone to the program. It looked nice, like there were a ot of things to do and see. I chose Costa Rica because I like the culture, and I wanted to visit the country. Well, I didn?t get to see much of anything but the facility while I was there. I didn?t leave for the first 7 months I was there. Not one foot stepped out of those gates. The first 5 months were the hardest. I quickly fell into a deep depression in which I felt absolutely no hope for anything. The staff and students seemed cold, and unwelcoming, and I had no one to talk to about my feelings and what I was going through. I distinctly remember several occasions in which I felt so lonely, hopeless and sad that I would search through my things, looking for something I might try to kill myself with. I was denied contact with my parents other than one letter a week. Many times my letters were lost, or would take 2 to 3 weeks to get to my parents. My parents were told that anything I said that was negative about the program was manipulation and I was just trying to get them to take me home. They lied to my parents. They taught us themselves that not telling the whole truth is considered lying. Maybe they should practice what they preach. Hey, what has happened now is just the universe holding them accountable for their actions. It will always come back on you. Anyways, while trudging through my depression there was so much going on around me, I didn?t know how to respond to it all. Rules were changed daily, disgruntled staff would take out their frustration on students by giving them unnecessary corrections, which docked points and set them back. We were not allowed to speak to each other unless it was during a very strict and limited time, usually never more than a half an hour at the most a day. The rest of the time we had to be absolutely silent, making no gestures or visual communication whatsoever. Sanitary conditions were terrible. We were made to sleep in rooms of 6-9 girls in one small room. If there was one person who got sick in a room, then everyone would get sick. We would have triple bunk beds with so little room you could not sit up, move around, or even get on or off easily. Many times there would not be water, so we could not shower, brush our teeth, was our faces etc. We also lacked necessary hygiene supplies like toilet paper, shampoo, conditioner, and toothpaste. I remember times when there was no toilet paper for days, and we would have to use notebook paper, or when we would not get items from the storage so we had very little shampoo left. We also had no laundry soap on several occasions. We had to wash our own clothes by hand, but several times, we would use shampoo to wash our clothes with because there was no laundry soap. Then, when everyone was running out of shampoo, and the scrubbing brushes had lost all of their bristles, I remember having to wash my clothes with conditioner and an old toothbrush. Then there was OP and Worksheets. OP was a place you went when you broke a category 4 or 5 rule. You could do this by simply having a map of something, by speaking in English to someone, or wearing too many articles of clothing etc. In OP you usually had to lie down on your stomach with your hands behind your back and your chin on the floor. I was in OP a few times. You cannot move, talk, look, itch?nothing. Sometimes you had to do hours and hours of exercises. Once I had to run with only my flip-flops. I asked several times to get my tennis shoes but they kept saying, no, keep running, you can get them later. We would also not be allowed to fill up our water bottles when we needed it. Maybe once we were allowed to go and refill our bottles. Kids could spend days weeks or months in OP. In worksheets you had to write a certain number of words. The number of works you had to write depended on what category rule violation you got. I believe I wrote somewhere around 130,000 to 150,000 words while I was there. I remember at least 2 occasions when I had around 50,000-60,000 words to write, which took me from 1 ½ to 2 weeks to do. Other times I would have anywhere from 16,000 to 30,000 words to write. I have around 30,000 words that I kept and brought home. We would not have tables to write on, and the rooms were dark to I would have to bend down and write on my lap which would give me terrible back and neck pains for up to 3 days. School was something that was out of control. When I got there, there were NO teachers NO school administrators, and there were students correcting work and giving credit. They lost my transcripts when I first got there, and I didn?t know what to do, so for several months I did nothing in school. Another concern was the Family Representative turnover. I had 9 family reps. In 11 months of being there. Family reps. were our only connection to our parents, and it was hard when they kept leaving about every month because I would just get to know them and then they would leave, and we?d have to deal with the new one and have to get to know them all over again. It was a never-ending cycle. My overall time at Dundee Ranch Academy was negative experience. I have since done much better at home though, and I have been working hard at school, so maybe just the experience scared me straight. I wouldn?t wish Dundee Ranch on my worst enemy.
Post Made to the WWASP Parents Message Board by a Student who was Present when Costa Rican Officials Entered Academy at Dundee Ranch, and his Mother who Went to Costa Rica to Bring Him Home:
I HAVE JUST RETURNED FROM DUNDEE RANCH ACADEMY FOR ALL PARENTS PANI IS TRYING TO HELP YOUR KIDS ARE RESEIVING NO RIGHTS AS CITIZENS THE PROGRAM MADE A BIG CHANGE IN MY LIFE AND THE PROGRAM I MEAN IS SEMINARS THE FACILITY IS SUCKING YOU DRY JUST THE LAST TWO DAYS I WAS THERE PANI HAD TO GET WARRENTS TO COME ON THE GROUNDS BUT STILL WERE NOT ALLOWED POLICE CAME IN THERE AND RAIDED IT AND FORCIBLY REMOVED THE STAFF AWAY FROM THE STUDENTS WHEN PANI TOLD SOME KIDS THEY HAD THE RIGHT TO SPEAK TO THERE PARENTS AND THE RIGHT TO PRIVATE MAIL OR EVEN NOT TO BE HELD IN THAT COUNTRY, KIDS RAN FOR FREEDOM IN SANDLES AND SHORTS DUNDEE CAME UP WITH A WAY TO MAKE THE POLICE LEAVE AND WHEN THAT HAPPENDED DUNDEE MADE CONTRACTS FOR THE KIDS TO SIGN STATING THAT WE AGREE WITH HOW WERE TREATED,FEED,LIVING CONDITIONS,AND NOT HAVING RIGHTS I REFUSED TO SIGN I WAS FORCED INTO A HIGH INPACT FACILITY WHICH NARVEN WAS OPENING WITH OUT THE COSTA RICAN GOVERMENT NOWING INSIDE WE COULD NOT BE LOCKED IN BUT THEY PLACED WORKERS AT THE DOOR WITH STICKS I TRIED TO LEAVE FOR FOOD AND CLOTHS AND RESEIVED A WOUND TO THE LEG FROM ONE OF THOSE STICKS I WAS ONLY GIVEN A PHONE CALL BECASUE THE POLICE FORCED DUNDEE TO I ASKED MY MOTHER TO COME HOME WHICH WHEN MY FAMILY REP GOT BACK ON THE PHONE TOLD MY MOTHER LOTS SAYING I WASN'T SAPPOSED TO SAY YOUR KIDS ARE SCARED NOT ALL BUT THEY CAN'T SAY ALL THEY WOULD LIKE ,THERE MAIL GETS EDITED AND IF THEY TRY TO SAY THAT THINGS ARE NOT RIGHT THEY LOOSE THERE LEVEL AND GET RESTRAINED ON THE ISSUE WITH RESRAINMENT THE CONTRACT STATES THAT I CAN ONLY BE RESTRAINDED IF I AM A HARM TO MYSELF OR TO OTHERS WELL THE STAFF SAYS ITS THERE INTERPRETATION WE GET RESTRAINDED FOR SPEAKING TO THE PARENTS OF THIRTEEN YEAR OLD KIDS YOUR KIDS DO NOT DESERVE THAT I DID BUT THEY ARE JUST SPOILED AND GETTING MORE OF THE PHYSICAL AND MENTAL ABUSE BECASUE THEY ARE MORE RESEPTIVE AND EASIER TO PICK ON I HAVE CHANGED BUT I WAS SCARED THINGS GO ON YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOUR KIDS ARE NOT FEED RIGHT (MY MOTHER)-[My son] IS 17 AND WAS AT DUNDEE 10 MONTHS,,,WHEN HE LEFT HE WAS A SIZE 44 WAIST, I SEE IN FRONT OF ME TODAY, A KID THAT GOT SICK ON 1 SANDWICH AND A GLASS OF MILK LAST NIGHT!!! HE IS IN A SIZE 34,,, YES, WE BOTH AGREE THE SCHOOL DID WORK IN ALOT OF WAYS, BUT 10 MONTHS 10INCHES, HE LOOKS LIKE A (P O W) AND I SEE AND PLAN TO TAKE PICTURES OF HIS LEGS WHERE HE WAS BEAT WITH BOARDS!!! I TALKED TO FR AND HE ACTED LIKE IT WAS ALL A SIMPLE MISUNDERSTANDING, THAT [my son] WAS STILL NOT READY TO COME HOME, BUT YOU TELL ME,THESE PEOPLE WOULD NOT GIVE MY SON HIS MEDS, CLOTHES ETC. BUT HAD THE TIME TO INCLUDE A NEW MEDICAL BILL FOR $300 THAT THEY ACTUALLY PUT A SMILEY STICKER ON!!! THEY HAD TIME FOR THAT!!! I'M NOT SORRY, I SEE & FEEL THAT I HAVE DONE THE RIGHT THING IN GETTING MY SON HOME, THEY ACUALLY TOLD ME NOT TO WORRY, AND 3 HOURS LATER THE GOV. FORCED THEM TO ALLOW [my son] TO CALL, PARENTS REALIZE THAT IF YOUR KIDS DON'T SIGN, AND/ OR LEAVE THERE IMMEDIATLY THAT PANI, CAN HAVE YOU TIED UP IN COURT, IN BOTH COUNTRY FOR UP TO 1 1/2, TO GET YOUR KIDS BACK!!!BRING THEM HOME AND TALK TO THEM,YOU CAN MAKE A BETTER CHOICE, BUT I WOULD DEMAND TO TALK TO YOUR CHILD, AND THEY FORCED FR OUT OF ROOM TO LET ME TALK TO [my son] AND HE WAS STILL AFRAID.....I'LL PROBABLY BE TOOK OF THIS BOARD.
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Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#34931 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2329&forum=9&start=10#34931)
Anonymous
Unregistered User Dundee letter
Posted: 2004-02-07 09:05:00
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The Following is my account of my family's WWASP experience.
To whom it may concern,
I'm writing in regard to TeenHelp/World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools/ WWASP. Their Program in Costa Rica is the Academy at Dundee Ranch.
I would like to tell you about my and my sons experience with WWASP. I'll attempt to be brief.
My son began using drugs and drinking at about age 15. By 16 he had lost control of the situation, was expelled from his school, robbing us blind, running away, coming home stoned - lots of worrisome stuff.
None of the less restrictive measures where able to make any difference - so I went looking for a residential situation that might.
I found WWASP/teenhelp on Lon Woodburry's web sight - strugglingteens.com.
I spent several months calling and asking questions. I did speak with other unrelated residential programs, but cost was a hindrance. WWASP had programs out of the States, which I was told made them more affordable, as the dollar was so strong in these countries. We are not a wealthy family, and I was paying for this with what I had just inherited from my father's estate - so funds where limited.
The program sounded great. I was sent a list of parents to contact, and they all said it was great. I could find nothing negative anywhere. I ended up having my son escorted to Academy at Dundee ranch, in April of 2002.
I'd like to try at this point and give you an idea of the ways in which I was mislead and manipulated by WWASP.
I was told a student with a profile and history like my son's could expect to graduate within 6 months. Graduating the program is the all important goal. Once he was at Dundee, and I was able to access the WWASP parent's bulletin board, the BBS, I soon realized this 6 month time frame was a farce. Even a year would be conservative, and two years appeared to be the average, although, I also noticed, younger students seemed to take much longer. Three or Four years wasn't unusual. I have come to feel there are many ways to slow down and sabotage a student's progress, and the motivation to do so is a powerful one - money.
I was also mislead about the basic nature of the program. I was lead to believe it was a school. I asked about this specifically. Repeatedly. I didn't want a hospital like placement, or a placement where many of the students had emotional or mental health issues. I needed and wanted a residential drug rehab with a good educational program.
I was told in answer to my questions, the program was a boarding school type of environment, with a therapeutic eliminate, which was daily group sessions, and emotional growth seminars. I thought I understood what this meant, but I was mistaken. The group sessions where not related to drug rehab in any meaningful way. Nor where the seminars what I had believed them to be. This I came to slowly understand from my activity on the BBS.
The 'school' consist of computer classes, with no actual instruction from an actual teacher. I had been told all the Program schools where fully accredited, but this wasn't true. Dundee didn't attain accreditation until sometime after my son arrived, and much of his early work was wasted. He found it impossible to take anything that needed explaining, such as algebra. He mostly spent his time doing minor electives he could manage from a store of basic common knowledge. It turns out "working the Program" is the first and foremost with education being of far less importance.
It also turned out that there where in fact a large number of students with emotional and mental health issues. It is apparently believed this particular program is a one size fits all cure.
As I mentioned, there was no actual drug rehab component, and the education wasn't of the high quality I had been lead to believe; also, the true nature of the seminars wasn't something I wanted to be part of, as the beliefs and practices they promote, conflict with many of our family's beliefs as evangelical Christians. And so I began looking for a different placement, and transferred my son out of the WWASP program at Dundee, in August of 2002.
At this point, I began to learn of things I had been mislead about, that are of a very serious nature.
I was told the program was points and levels based. Points where gained or lost, depending on how a student did in several areas of behavior, and levels gained or lost depending on the number of points. Gaining levels being desired, as it not only leads to graduating the program, but also more privileges; Such as field trips and activities, like maybe a dance or a movie.
Even calls home to Mom and Dad are considered a privilege that must be earned. I was mislead about this as well. I had been told my son couldn't call home until attaining level three. I was lead to believe this might take a couple or three weeks. This wasn't really alarming. I soon learned it could and would take much longer, three or four Months being a more appropriate estiment. Some go for much longer than that - many, many months, with no calls home allowed.
The Points and levels where the only form of 'consequence' ever mentioned prior to enrollment.
I was never told, in any way shape or form, that Food is part of the reward system. I don't mean just the use of condiments. I mean food. My son felt he was being starved. He was always hungry. Hunger became a real issue for him and was always present. I think I understand now, why the new and lower level kids are kept hungry, but I'll just ask you to believe me when I say he was in fact kept hungry, for whatever reason.
I was also not told the program has a method of punishment that mirrors a practice that was inflicted on prisoners of Devils Island, Observation Place. The History channel has a show they do on prisons - and when they did Devil's Island, they gave a good description of Observation Place -
In Observation Place, the hapless student must remain silent, on their knees, face to the wall, hands behind their back, for up to twelve hours a day, for days at a time. Some of the 'schools' make them lay on their stomachs - Sometimes they did this at Dundee as well; but a forced body position and silence are always a part of it. My son spent three days in O. P for trading his medicine for candy.
On this occasion, when I asked - "what is O. P?" as I hadn't prior to this, ever herd of it; All I was told was, it was a place where the students had to remain quite and think about their non working choices. Maybe so. But there was an awful lot left unsaid. I didn't have a clue, until reading a description of O.P. in a New Orleans news paper article.
Its my understanding, some students spend the majority of their time in O. P., as they have a harder time conforming to the strict regimented demands of the program.
Another misleading was how restraint is used in the program. I was told restraint was sometimes used. This wasn't alarming, as I could easily imagine there where occasions when restraint would be needed, for the safety of the students. I was told it happens but was a rare occurrence, and as this made sense, I didn't question it.
What I have learned since my son has been transferred out of WWASP, is that restraint is very common and brutal. Its a common consequence to many minor infractions.
Lower level students are restrained for talking, as they are not allowed to talk - something else that was never disclosed to me upfront. Students are restrained for looking out of windows or smiling when they shouldn't be.
The restraint is painful. It isn't the sort of restraint that is to prevent ones harming themselves or others - but intended to hurt. My son told me, the students where told, the staff could break one bone with no reprisals, as all the parents had signed documents to that effect. I never signed anything giving my permission to break my son's bones.
He also told me it is a common thing for students to be beat up. He said it happened every day. At Dundee, he said it was the Jamaicans, who are transplants from WWASPs' Tranquillity Bay, that tended to beat up on the kids, and where so quick to restrain the students for minor things.
One last issue for my family is a matter of Faith. I had been assured that even though the WWASP/TeenHelp programs are Mormon owned and operated, no one particular Faith was encouraged or taught. However, it seems they do in fact consider the students a captive mission field. My son has told me, he was glad I sent him books to read, as oftentimes, if a student lacked a book of their own, they where handed a book of Mormon and made to read it.
On another occasion, he was invited to a Bible study, where instead of the Holy Bible, they passed out the book of Mormon. Many of the students are Mormon, and other families have no strong feeling about this issue; but for us, it's a real serious problem. I was upset about this.
All these things are why I think this program needs to be shut down.
There are good people at Dundee. I have been grateful for the kindness of my son's family Rep, as well as another young Costa Rican, who allowed my son to visit his home and travel with him to meet me in Miami. There are good people, who deserve much heartfelt gratitude; But they have a despicable employer, In my opinion.
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You know, you people can post this shit all day long to try and prove your case in the court of public opinion. But truthfully, what I am getting out of this is how each and every parent made a choice to put their kid in a program thousands of miles from home. No one forced you. No one begged you. No one threatened you. Take responsibility for your actions and if these people harmed you and you can prove it, bring on the lawsuit. Until then, don't be too surprised if this p.r. campaign ends up backfiring, because like I said, it is hard to ignore your own culpability. THESE ARE PARENT-CHOICE SCHOOLS.
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I love this thread. Two entirely opposing posts. One from a parent that had witnessed what happened and listened to a lot of the kids, not as a staff, but as a mom.
The second set of posts remind me of the letters all the kids write about: rocks in food, bugs, hitting, etc., so if this is true, it's like the boy that cried wolf.
Carey, your boys were there. Did they have to rocks for dinner? I'll buy the "bugs" - it's in the rainforest, right? I've seen bugs and flys in that area that would scare the fearless when I was on vacation there several years ago.
Other than that, why aren't these people behind bars if what the second set of posts alleges???
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Other than that, why aren't these people behind bars if what the second set of posts alleges???
::smokingun::
Lichfield, who said he donated $10,000 to campaign of President Abel Pacheco, claims he has appealed to the President for help, but added Pacheco probably "doesn?t want to touch us with a 10-foot poll."
::smokingun::
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Thank you for posting Karen Z's account yet again. :rofl:
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On 2004-02-07 16:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Other than that, why aren't these people behind bars if what the second set of posts alleges???
::smokingun::
Lichfield, who said he donated $10,000 to campaign of President Abel Pacheco, claims he has appealed to the President for help, but added Pacheco probably "doesn?t want to touch us with a 10-foot poll."
::smokingun::
"
That's funny. A mere $10,000? Is that supposed to convince me that he's not in jail because he donated a tiny amount of money to a political campaign? :wstupid:
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Carey, your boys were there. Did they have to rocks for dinner? I'll buy the "bugs" - it's in the rainforest, right? I've seen bugs and flys in that area that would scare the fearless when I was on vacation there several years ago.
No, both boys said they never had bugs or rocks in their food. Actually, one of them had said that his favorite place to work while at Dundee was in the kitchen. He liked helping to prepare the food.
They did say that they both spent time in OP, one of them for three days and one for four days. They did say they had to sit, stand and lay in postions that were painful to them. They did say they were not allowed to talk for the first month or two that they were there.
What I have learned since my son has been transferred out of WWASP, is that restraint is very common and brutal. Its a common consequence to many minor infractions
My boys were never restrained. They were there for a total of seven months and it never happened to them. They did say they heard others were. And they did say they heard the ones that did the restraining were the Jamaicans.
They both said they liked their family reps. However Garred did say that his family rep told him that I did not love him because if I did I would not be trying to take him out of Dundee. Garred said that some of the other boys felt sorry for him, believing that maybe that was true, but Garred said he knew I loved him, he said he knew the rep was just saying that.
Both boys feel like they did learn some good things while at Dundee. But they also know there were things that went on there that should not have. Such as one of the boys said he over heard the owner talking, actully fighting, verbally that is, about an inappropriate incident with an employee and a student. Evidently the owner was pissed about what had happened and was repremanding the employee. He didn't have all the details he said he could just tell from what he overheard that something happened and someone was getting reamed for it.
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I'll tell you why I believe the kids' stories of abuse---not all of them, but many.
I'm a writer. Somebody likes my writing enough to pay me for it.
Now, I have read more of other people's *bad* writing and *bad* fiction in my life than I care to, and I can tell you it is a rare person who can write convincing fiction.
Now, all lies are fiction. Lying is a subset of fiction--it's a fiction the author wants you to really believe.
Most people are substantially better at telling what really happened to them than they are at writing fiction.
When people who don't write professionally invent fiction---when they lie---particularly if they do it in writing, they sound different from people who are telling the truth.
They either gloss over way too much and are way too vague, or they are very detailed but the details don't have the right pattern that goes with a true account---or with the account of a *good* fiction writer.
The accounts of the program advocates just don't ring true, and the accounts of most of the people who say they were kids there mostly do ring true.
The accounts of the "I just got out of the program it saved my life" kids have that evasive vagueness and bareness that typically goes with someone who's walking around in a fog---part of them is desperately trying not to lie, part of them is desperately trying to keep their behavior in the pattern they've been trained into---so what comes out is a bareness of detail so they can pretend everything is alright without actually having to fabricate the details that would have been there if everything had *really* been alright.
The accounts of the parents have that "if I don't look I won't notice there's an elephant in the living room" ring that you get with alcoholics or people with similar issues when they're desperately trying to convince you--and themselves--that everything's alright.
But detailed lies are, well, they're *different* from the detailed accounts of most of the survivors---well, the ones I've read, anyway.
I've known pathological liars. I've known at least six of them, and they've all had the same kind of rhythm to their lies. After awhile, you learn to recognize the pattern.
My expert opinion as a crafter of fiction is that most of the survivors' accounts I've read are not fiction.
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The writer makes some good points. What I think also needs to be factored into the equation is that one person's definition of abuse is another's definition of enforced discipline, or tough love. Also, many kids who are in these programs actually come to think of the staff as more "caring" than their own parents, who are often guilty of neglecting the emotional needs of their kids and opening the door to feelings of abandonment.
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On 2004-02-07 16:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thank you for posting Karen Z's account yet again. :rofl: "
Speaking of Karen Z., anybody notice that both she and Craig, are not posting anymore in spite of the need to resolve the very bizarre allegations made against against Abundant Life Academy? What the heck are people supposed to think about that whole scenario? Just assume the guy making the allegations WAS LYING? I don't think that is appropriate at all and seriously question their judgment in ignoring the need to clear up this matter.
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On 2004-02-07 20:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'll tell you why I believe the kids' stories of abuse---not all of them, but many.
I'm a writer. Somebody likes my writing enough to pay me for it.
Now, I have read more of other people's *bad* writing and *bad* fiction in my life than I care to, and I can tell you it is a rare person who can write convincing fiction.
Now, all lies are fiction. Lying is a subset of fiction--it's a fiction the author wants you to really believe.
Most people are substantially better at telling what really happened to them than they are at writing fiction.
When people who don't write professionally invent fiction---when they lie---particularly if they do it in writing, they sound different from people who are telling the truth.
They either gloss over way too much and are way too vague, or they are very detailed but the details don't have the right pattern that goes with a true account---or with the account of a *good* fiction writer.
The accounts of the program advocates just don't ring true, and the accounts of most of the people who say they were kids there mostly do ring true.
The accounts of the "I just got out of the program it saved my life" kids have that evasive vagueness and bareness that typically goes with someone who's walking around in a fog---part of them is desperately trying not to lie, part of them is desperately trying to keep their behavior in the pattern they've been trained into---so what comes out is a bareness of detail so they can pretend everything is alright without actually having to fabricate the details that would have been there if everything had *really* been alright.
The accounts of the parents have that "if I don't look I won't notice there's an elephant in the living room" ring that you get with alcoholics or people with similar issues when they're desperately trying to convince you--and themselves--that everything's alright.
But detailed lies are, well, they're *different* from the detailed accounts of most of the survivors---well, the ones I've read, anyway.
I've known pathological liars. I've known at least six of them, and they've all had the same kind of rhythm to their lies. After awhile, you learn to recognize the pattern.
My expert opinion as a crafter of fiction is that most of the survivors' accounts I've read are not fiction."
I do agree with you in regard to Straight. I also do think that since WWASP has been around a long time and out of the thousands of kids enrolled, there must have been a loose cannon staff member here and there who abused their power. I see most of the allegations are the "fiction" of the kids that MUST continue the story well after convincing their parents it is true they were abused. I can tell you that these kids share what worked for kids that got "pulled" and it is repeated over and over and over again in letters to their own parents...sometimes verbatim.
What's your take on these stories...are they fiction?? http://www.wwasp.com/source03/Jan-04L.pdf (http://www.wwasp.com/source03/Jan-04L.pdf)
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for fun imagine instead of Narvin thanking parents for helping them save kids perhaps his letter close could read...
thank you to the Program parents who write letters that help keep our multi- million dollar child holding Programs alive...
we REALLY appreciate your support because remember your children likely may be DEAD if you don't finance the Program to save them. and well ...minor to that hey -our lifestyle may suffer.
:wstupid:
hey...who died and left them in charge of saving children anyway- sounds like a job for a Savior?
so who saved Narvin and Bob?
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Thank you to Fiction Writer Anon. The analysis is good, giving me some valid reason behind why the WWASPS supporters' vague ramblings seem so incomplete and strange.
As to the responding Anon, she said:
... I also do think that since WWASP has been around a long time and out of the thousands of kids enrolled, there must have been a loose cannon staff member here and there who abused their power.
My grandaughter, who was held at Casa by the Sea for 10 months of her 14th year, and who is now living with us, successfully going to high school, dating, keeping up with homework, quietly adds to the collections of anecdotes about her time there as we go about our regular business of living. It is not occasional "loose cannons" of staff. A huge percentage of abuse is the result of unlimited Power of Punishment given to newly-minted Upper Levels, a system that WWASPS calls "leadership opportunities". These 14, 15, 16yo kids, who were victims of the WWASPS techniques against lower levels only days before, are given sudden unlimited power to decide who gets punished. Was that girl "exhibiting negative attitudes toward Staff" by slumping her shoulders while in her chair? Was that girl exhibiting "inappropriate behavior in class" by relieving strain by swiveling her neck and turning her head toward a window? My kid was punished for these infractions, identified by an Upper Level. She could not sit straight up; she could not round her shoulders; everything was wrong.
This Punishment Power is like looking at a dog and saying, "Sit". Amazingly, the dog may sit. Wow. Let's try.... and so it goes. An adolescent given unbridled punitive powers, especially when recently he has been the recipient of unimagined punishment himself, is not praticing leadership. He is practicing abuse, and he is a loose cannon.
There are not a random few; there are hundreds of WWASPS children, graduates and "pulled" kids who, during their expensive sojourn in WWASPS, learn how satisfying abuse can be, and you can bet they will carry this lesson into their later life with their spouse, children, the kids on the Little League team, their employees. Such is the lifelong dividend of WWASPS policies if the child is not strong enough to return to reality and know that society in general does not condone such activity.
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Spots, it's not just wwasp. Most programs give the teens leadership skills training. It sounds like your girl didn't like being told she was not following rules, or whatnot. I'm sure she is better off with you and not her real mother, the one you raised.
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Kids should absolutely not be in charge of disciplining other kids. This is wrong. Kids who have completed an accredited Peer Assistance Leadership Course can often be very effective in working with other teens, but there are strict rules about what they can and can not do. Mainly they LISTEN WITH A HEART and are there to lend their time and training in an effort to be of support to another teen, not to sit in judgment of them, or worse, hand out punishments like candy. These programs (called PALS) can be found in most public high schools across the nation. Spots, perhaps your granddaughter's school has a program like this. It is such a worthwhile program and looks very nice on those college apps. I know because my own child volunteered as a PAL for 3 years during high school. Anyway, I digress. What do behavioral healthcare experts have to say about this practice of allowing upper level students to discipline lower level students? I would be real interested in their opinion.
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On 2004-02-08 16:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Kids should absolutely not be in charge of disciplining other kids. This is wrong. Kids who have completed an accredited Peer Assistance Leadership Course can often be very effective in working with other teens, but there are strict rules about what they can and can not do. Mainly they LISTEN WITH A HEART and are there to lend their time and training in an effort to be of support to another teen, not to sit in judgment of them, or worse, hand out punishments like candy. These programs (called PALS) can be found in most public high schools across the nation. Spots, perhaps your granddaughter's school has a program like this. It is such a worthwhile program and looks very nice on those college apps. I know because my own child volunteered as a PAL for 3 years during high school. Anyway, I digress. What do behavioral healthcare experts have to say about this practice of allowing upper level students to discipline lower level students? I would be real interested in their opinion."
Spots, I did not mean to imply your grandaughter seek the support of a PAL, I meant your grandaughter should volunteer to be a PAL. She sounds like a great kid and might enjoy helping other kids.
Sidenote: I don't like that cheap shot taken at you by the other anon. Plenty of kids have ended up in these programs because of problems triggered by a step-parent. Advocating for one's grandchild is not a crime, for God's sake.
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Not sure about theprogram your grand daughter was in, but the one I'm familiar with has a leadership component. The upper levels don't do the "discipline" - what they do is recommend certain point losses, CAT's, but they don't have the control you think they do. Another assumption, or it could be the way it is done at another school.
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On 2004-02-08 16:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Spots, it's not just wwasp. Most programs give the teens leadership skills training. It sounds like your girl didn't like being told she was not following rules, or whatnot. I'm sure she is better off with you and not her real mother, the one you raised. "
When the rules include not talking to other kids for days at a time, not slumping your shoulders, or not looking out the window, then the rules are oppressive and abusive.
*Nobody* should have to follow those rules.
People have basic human rights---including the right to speak to others, to turn their heads, to change their body positions (the most fundamental of elements of physical liberty).
Children are people, too. Children have rights.
You nutballs who punish children for talking to other children when there's no acceptable, allowed time to talk to each other for days at a time--you nutballs belong in jail.
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Yes, how is it that these "nutballs" are not facing charges of at least, willful neglect? This is pure insanity instutionalzing teens without due-process. Personally, I would not blame a child for suing their parents. Doubt any lawyers would want to take a case like that, but if one did, and had some notoriety to get him/her on mainstream news programs like Dateline, 48 Hours, 20/20 etc. it would certainly send their ratings sky high.
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therapists recommend "programs" to keep the teens from having to be "institutionalized." Big difference. One being there are behaviors that need to change and a program is what can assist in that change. Institutions are state or government funded hospital settings where little is done to bring about healthy changes.
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On 2004-02-08 19:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"therapists recommend "programs" to keep the teens from having to be "institutionalized." Big difference. One being there are behaviors that need to change and a program is what can assist in that change. Institutions are state or government funded hospital settings where little is done to bring about healthy changes. "
Any residential program is an institution and is institutionalization. A dog still has four legs if you call the tail a leg---calling it a leg doesn't make it one. Calling an institution a program doesn't make it not an institution.
There are private and public hospitals, mental and otherwise, out there and their purpose---which is the only legitimate purpose of non-substance-addiction non-criminal residential treatment----is to stabilize the patient on medication so that the patient can work on behaviors in outpatient therapy.
My problem with the programs is not that it's not possible to do a program *right* that would be beneficial to the patients. My problem with the programs is that the ones I've seen discussed online do *not* do the thing right.
Rules like not talking to other students/patients---and I'm not talking about simply not talking in class, I'm talking about not talking at all outside of "therapy." Rules like not turning your head to look out a window or not slumping your shoulders. Staff that aren't trained to regard application of restraints as inherently dangerous to a patient's life and aren't thoroughly trained--outside the facility and its partners---in non-restraint techniques to de-escalate conflict. Caloric restrictions or failing to provide a daily multivitamin supplement to assist a bland diet---All these are examples of how to do it wrong and do more harm than good.
A *good* program would have a patient/student seen by a psychiatrist within 72 hours of admission, and once a month therafter, with phone consultations with staff and patient if medication adjustment is necessary in the interim. A *good* program would have patients meet with a licensed therapist or clinical psychologist once or twice a week, maybe tapering to once every two weeks near graduation. Therapy should be supportive rather than confrontational.
A *good* program would avoid the onset of Stockholm Syndrome by giving the patient at least three first class postage stamps, three envelopes, a pen, and six sheets of paper a week, with the ability to correspond back and forth with anyone they choose. Exceptions would be threats of violence to or from the patient or critical rants against the patient. Screening out correspondents who are convicted felons or particular persons with whom the patient was convicted of delinquent behavior would be acceptable. Where the patient's choice of correspondent is alleged to be a druggie, the correspondent showing up to a local hospital or physician and taking a drug test (and more accurate follow up to check for false positives, if needed)--once--should be considered definitive about whether the "druggie" accusation is true or false. If it's true, it's okay to prohibit *that* correspondent.
Examples of the kinds of correspondent who should *not* be tampered with, even if they are not fans of the program and not supportive of the program: extended family members, friends with whom the patient is not having sex or abusing drugs (one drug test considered definitive), a boyfriend/girlfriend aged within 5 years of the patient who is not abusing drugs or beating the patient or hypercritical of the patient regardless of whether or not the relationship was sexual, concerned adult friends (church, neighborhood, parents of peers, other--nonfelons, passing a drug test, not having sex with the child or beating the child), child protective services, reporters, attorneys, elected officials, fan mail to non-felon public figures the child admires.
Parents should be encouraged to provide more stamps, etc., if the patient is inclined to write more letters. Letter writing to a broad variety of people is educational and promotes impulse control and healthy communication. If you write what you're saying to someone instead of speaking it, you inherently have to think twice about what you say. Therapists can help by encouraging a 12 to 24 hour cooling off between writing a letter and sending it. They can also help by encouraging the kids to type their letters on the computer and spellcheck and revise them before printing and sending.
Most troubled teens have problems with impulse control. Fostering regular and broad letter writing by using the child's natural desire for communication with friends and the outside world is an excellent therapeutic tool because it forces the teen to practice interposing actual thought between impulse and communication. This directly supports the other efforts in therapy to train in impulse control. It's not what the kid says--even if he trashes the progam up one side and down the other---that has the therapeutic effect. It's the natural imposition of a time delay between impulse and act.
It's entirely possible to do boarding school right, and provide on-site treatment to children with problems.
The problem with the programs is that they aren't doing it right---they're substituting Stockholm Syndrome and temporarily overlaying the patient's own personality with an artificial "program" personality for genuine quality treatment.
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/bump Another a-hole, waving smugly: :wave:
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On 2004-02-11 11:42:00, Froderik13 wrote:
"/bump Another a-hole, waving smugly: :wave: "
Frod, you've posted this twice today. What does it mean? Who are you talking about? :???:
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Wouldn't you like to know... :rofl:
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a post worth revisiting for some of the people who have to much time on their hands by a student who was there Posted: 2004-02-19 09:21:00
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Brainwashed? So let me get this straight, do you think that they "brainwashed" me into "forgetting all the abuse"?!?! You apparently didn't listen on my post when I stated that program kids say what they want to. I have almost been out for as long as I was in there, and so you'd think that the chemicals they used to brain wash me would have worn off by now. Dundee is a past chapter in my life; the only reason I respond to these damned things is because you people choose to be so damn ignorant. I'm telling you, you'd all make great candidates for weekly world news customers. As far as brainwashed goes-- we have two ways to look at things in life- positively or negatively. 6 months before I went to the program my brother got in a car wreck and my best friend was in the vehicle and died. He was the closest person that I had ever lost. Being in the program, I realized that sometimes life deals you a shitty hand, and you have to work with it. Those of us who actually tried to help ourselves out when we were in the program realized that we could make dundee whatever we wanted it to be: good or bad. For me it was all a big adventure. For some kids it was hell, and that's because they decided to feel that way about it-- not because they were abused. Dundee was the toughest episode of my life by far, but because of it I went from being a school drop-out to majoring in engineering at virginia tech with a 3.8. It gave me a chance to get off of drugs. A CHANCE. It was totally up to me whether or not I did anything when I got back- thats why they don't guarantee anything. If they really could brainwash us, then maybe there would be some gurantees; but we have free wills about deciding what we do, just as well as we have them about deciding what we say. You can't stop me from saying something that I want to. It makes me sick that you ignorant people actually believe that you are fighting for some type of just cause here.
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Ah..we have another SPAMMER. This is NOT me, BTW. (Call me "spammer1") :grin:
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If you think that not letting kids talk, slouch, or look out windows is abuse, then you obviously do not have an older brother. Before you label those things as "abuse," take a look at what some of these kids lives were like before they went to the program-- a lot of us came from torn up families. I would bet my college loan refund (seeing as how that's pretty much my only asset) on the fact that the abuse most of the kids suffered at home was incomparible to the regulations we had to follow in the school-- a lot of us did come from very abusive homes. In Dundee, kids knew that they couldn't be forced to do anything- and they weren't. If you didn't want to sit straight up, you didn't have to-- whenever a staff asked you to do something, you could spit in their face. It would land in o.p., of course, but kids LOVED IT in o.p. There was a 4 or 5 month period where kids would wake up and wipe a booger on someone else first thing in the morning, just so they could take their towel and book into o.p. and lay down on the floor and not have to go to school. A lot of these kids pulled this number for months, and were able to avoid everything- school, the program, other rules... it got to a point to where they were holding themselves back. Parents sent their kids there because they had problems with kids listening to what they told them to do, and so Dundee has an environment that is structured around kids learning that every action they commit creates a result. Dundee rewarded good behavior, and consequented bad behavior. Again, it is impossible for Dundee to just flip kids minds into this mind set that if they really want to get home (which was the base incentive for all of us to work), then it would require us following the rules. Just like in life, if I don't want to pay $1500 a year on my car insurance, then I need to be conscious and not get any tickets. I am not a parent, and so I really couldn't tell you much about being one, however what I see going on here is a situation where we have many moody, angry parents who are trying to be the saviors of their kids. You are being their crutch. I get support from my parents, both emotionally and financially, and I do no disagree with it. But you can't fight your children's battles for their entire lives, as much as you care about them. I would be screwed right now if I had never learned to make decisions for myself. If there was one single point that I wish people would please, please, please, understand, through all of the trash talking, and the finger pointing, and trying to find gaps in other peoples' logic so that you can attack them with your opinion and feel like you are RIGHT, there was not a single kid that left Dundee damaged because they went there. No harm was inflicted on any of us: physically or emotionally. If you think that your kid is emotionally of physically traumatized because of the things that they tell you, then you are either misunderstanding, or being lied to. Since I have been back I have spoken on the phone to two kids who were pulled from the program that I know for a fact say they were abused. On the phone their voices were shaky, silent, and scared. The day that those two left, I was sitting at the school with them joking around. They weren't the same kids that I used to laugh with in our rooms when we were supposed to be on silence, or the happy kids that were always on the basketball court. They were pulling a huge act, and I knew it. I spent about 8 months of being with them allllll daaaaaay looooong, and I don't doubt for a second that the reason they carried on those stories after they left was so that they could stay home with their ganja and their t.v....and women-- we all wanted to get out and get us a woman :lol:
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Well, I can believe they're all lying, or I can believe that maybe you're the one lying.
If WWASP was telling the truth, and you were telling the truth, then they wouldn't be getting so upset at the thought that they'd actually have to let the kids send and receive letters freely (not just to their parents), and that they'd have to be subject to surprise inspections of any part of the facility by child welfare folks. And, of course, that there would be a *minimum* number of thorough, surprise inspections each year.
If WWASP was telling the truth, and you were telling the truth, they'd welcome the oversight as a way to demonstrate that they were better than their industry competitors.
If WWASP was telling the truth, and you were telling the truth, they'd welcome each child having an intake interview by a social services case worker to evaluate the reason for placement and to verify that the child did indeed have the listed problems, so that children who didn't need residential treatment would be screened out instead of admitted.
Since, instead, they (and you) come across as highly resistant to reasonable government oversight of what amounts to involuntary commitment, I draw the reasonable conclusion that the people claiming abuse are more likely to be telling the truth and you and the other WWASPies are more likely to be lying.
If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
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Thank you,
$pammer1
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I don't doubt for a second that the reason they carried on those stories after they left was so that they could stay home with their ganja and their t.v....and women-- we all wanted to get out and get us a woman
Chris, what stories is it that you are talking about that they carried on with? I think we both know who you are talking about as I too have heard that they enjoyed playing basketball while at Dundee.
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Social workers and the state government restraints that are placed on what they can and cannot do is why most states are in the place they are in right now. Ten years ago, a parent was allowed to be a parent, but now the States are saying that if a kid is high all the time, or drops out of school or burns the house down, they have to agree to get help? What's wrong with this picture?
I would no more ask a social worker to tell me my child needs help than I would most of you.
What's all the fuss about letter writing? Would it be a good thing for the kids to get letters from their "old" friends and focus on them? No. THey get uncensored letters from their parents and maybe siblings or any relative that the parents okay. That statement about getting uncensored letters from ANYONE is just stupid.
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***Parents sent their kids there because they had problems with kids listening to what they told them to do, and so Dundee has an environment that is structured around kids learning that every action they commit creates a result. Dundee rewarded good behavior, and consequented bad behavior.***
Chris,
Did the kids wiping buggers actually received a ?consequence? if they laid on a towel and avoided school? If they were going to lay around, why not their room or the beach? Point being, why the ?special room?? What was so special about that room? How many days did one bugger wiping get a guy? Sounds like the more appropriate ?consequence? would have been to have to go to school.. of course, if issuing consequences was the intention. I'm still trying to imagine a number(?) of guys laying around on towels in a small room all day while others are at school. How many fit in the OP room?
What type of rewards did you receive? The privilege of eventually being allowed to speak to your parents? You know, contact with your parents is a RIGHT not a privilege. Now, if your parents refuse to speak to you, that?s another matter- and most definitely is abandonment. Here in the real world, where right and wrong exist and where right (just) sometimes prevails; the only way a third party can severe contact between parent and child is when it is proven by a court of law to be detrimental to the child?s well-being. There seems no other explanation for this, except to establish that they are the ultimate authority in your life. Do you believe that any means to an end are acceptable? Would the ?incentive to get home? as you say, have been any less if you?d had contact with your parents?
Yes, there are rules in life. Some of us believe that most of the basic rules of most all programs are not humane. Not a beneficial or desirable means to the end. Can you fathom that you might be happy and well adjusted today without the treatment you received at Dundee? People find clever ways to get around irrational and unreasonable rules, Ex: ?They weren't the same kids that I used to laugh with in our rooms when we were supposed to be on silence?? If they really wanted you to be silent, and meant it, wouldn?t they have had someone sit in the room or monitor the room on camera? How do you explain that? Do you think it humane to deny a person basic rights such as looking out the window, looking at self in the mirror, looking at the opposite sex, speaking without permission, no contact with the outside world. For all intents and purposes, you were in a private prison.
Were you ever in OP? Did you have to kneel or lay face down motionless, or did you lay on a towel for days on end? Did you ever have your arm twisted behind your back?
Where do you draw the line on human rights, particularly the rights of parent/child? If/when you have children, do you think that you?ll have the same rules for him/her that you learned there? I mean, if it?s good for change, might it also be good for prevention? What do you think?
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The whole purpose is prevention. Parents learn and apply (hopefully) the concepts, the kids learn and apply the concepts. If the parents choose not to apply them, the kids still have an awesome chance to use what they learned and move on. Yes, I know what NOT to do now and that's rescue and enable and live my life through my kids. My eyes are also wide open to the possibilities of relapse, but I'm all ears too. Listening and open communication, even if I don't agree, it's not the end of the world. So much has changed in the past 5 years, for the better. The bumps are no longer mountains. Go figure.
I think this young man is strong and focused and won't buy into your crap, Deborah. I knew you and others would do your best to make him think he was abused to fit your view of whatever the hell program you were involved in. The feeble attempt at button pushing is funny.
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Button pushing? Do my best to make him think he was abused?
I asked him legitimate questions which he can choose to answer or not. You may not "rescue" your child, but it sure appears that you are here attempting to "rescue" Chris. He's doing a fine job speaking for himself.
Listening and open communication?
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If Chris wasn't abused, good for him. Really.
It doesn't have jack to do with whether other people were or not.
I focus on letter-writing because it is an open access to other relatives, the parents of friends, grown friends, and government agencies if the kid is being abused and the parents are interpreting cries for help as "manipulation." Abuse reports need to be investigated, whether they're "manipulation" or not.
I don't have a problem with, if the parents allege a particular friend is a druggie, that friend going down to the hospital and getting a drug test within X days of the allegation being made. But if the test comes back clean, the communication shouldn't be censored.
And the reason for the letter writing is that it's a pretty much 100% prophylactic against the induction of Stockholm Syndrome---you can't induce SS without isolation. You can't isolate if the kid can send and receive letters freely. No isolation, no Stockholm Syndrome.
I emphasize letter writing as the means of preventing Stockholm Syndrome that is *least* disruptive to any genuine therapeutic process.
My contention is that instead of providing genuine treatment for the kids' problems, most TBS's rely on the induction of Stockholm Syndrome and then use mind control techniques to implant a false personality on top of the kid's own personality--it's a form of dissociation. The kid thinks, sometimes, that he's just playing a role, but on some level the role becomes real and "stuck" and doesn't wear off for about five to fifteen years----leaving behind PTSD and all sorts of other assorted problems that have been masked by the Stockholm Syndrome and false personality.
With open access to send and receive mail, the programs won't be getting those unrealistic and misleading apparent "success" rates---but any improvements are far more likely to be real, permanent, and not do further lasting psychological and psychiatric damage to these already damaged teens.
So my focus on letter writing may *seem* stupid to you if you don't know much about psychology, but there's a very, very good reason for it.
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Oops. Sorry, that was me. Didn't realize I wasn't logged in.
All our liberties are due to men who, when their conscience has compelled them, have broken the laws of the land.
--William Kingdon Clifford
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Nice to see a discussion that actually shines a light on issues of interest to people who appreciate hearing all points of view, especially those expressed by young people who have first-hand experience (good, bad or ugly) with a specialty school or program. Honestly folks, if the goal is to protect kids from maltreatment in ANY institutionalized-style program or school, this is a far better way to achieve that goal than the proverbial "divide and conquer" tactics and techniques favored by people with a vested interest in manipulating public opinion.
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Nice to see a discussion that actually shines a light on issues of interest to people who appreciate hearing all points of view
Well, actually I am interested in Christopher's point of view. Maybe he hasn't replied because this was pushed off the bottom of the page by the spammers or maybe he just got chased off this board.
Chris, if you are still out there would you kindly answer Deborah's questions above?
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Maybe he hasn't replied because this was pushed off the bottom of the page by the spammers or maybe he just got chased off this board.
Actually, it was bumped by the so-called "spammer" And if he WAS "run off the board" then avast ye' mateys, & full speed ahead! Batter up, Chris...don't be nervous...only thousands are watching.. :smokin: :skull: :cool:
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Sorry I haven't posted in a few days, I have to study like four hours out of class for every hour I am in there... I am writing a paper right now but I will be posting more in a few hours about my experience and everyone's questions and whatnot. As for the stories I was referring to other kids spreading- I meant ones about abuse. The only times I have heard kids talk about abuse were all through anonymous posts on here or elsewhere. I never heard anyone tell me about their abuse while we were all in there- but I know they are saying tons nowadays
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I for one am interested in Christopher's experiences.It is good to know not all of the children were mistreated.I believe they were all aware of the mistreament of the kids by staff,but then upper levels were the staff ,therefore they too were issueing consequences.
Is it possible to be so indifferent to kids having to be in OP or kneel for hours and NOT consider that wrong? To know some kids were constantly the chosen picked upon kid and not know it?
I would like to better understand.
There is a lot to gain being an upper level Jr. leader.
I think some kids are not prepared to sell their souls to achieve that place within the system.
Therefore they are sent to Jamaica.
I would appreciate Christopher having an opportunity to share without being treated disrespectfully.
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Playing the Devil's Advocate here ... in the spirit of trying to make some sense outta all this:
Isn't it at least understandable that upper level kids would be indifferent b/c they most likely endured the same consequences, sometimes multiple times, and after awhile came to view this miserable experience as necessary (not justified) for their own "turnaround"?
Isn't it HIGHLY probably that upper level kids after being in a program long enough come to view themselves as superior to the new phases, who have not "paid their dues" (read suffered) as long as they have? That showing compassion could be read as a weakness? A sign that they have not truly INTERNALIZED the program's values and beliefs?
Wouldn't most kids, if given the chance, quit the program and get the hell outta dodge, if they knew their parents would not hold it against them?
Kids are not born sadists. But power is intoxicating. Those who abuse their power and become sadistic are truly the damaged ones.
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On 2004-02-23 18:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Playing the Devil's Advocate here ... in the spirit of trying to make some sense outta all this:
Isn't it at least understandable that upper level kids would be indifferent b/c they most likely endured the same consequences, sometimes multiple times, and after awhile came to view this miserable experience as necessary (not justified) for their own "turnaround"?
Isn't it HIGHLY probably that upper level kids after being in a program long enough come to view themselves as superior to the new phases, who have not "paid their dues" (read suffered) as long as they have? That showing compassion could be read as a weakness? A sign that they have not truly INTERNALIZED the program's values and beliefs?
Wouldn't most kids, if given the chance, quit the program and get the hell outta dodge, if they knew their parents would not hold it against them?
Kids are not born sadists. But power is intoxicating. Those who abuse their power and become sadistic are truly the damaged ones.
"
God, my key strokes suck. Paragraph 3 should read "Isn't it HIGHLY probable (not probably) ...
Also, it occured to me after I had already hit the "say-it" button that to demonize these children who abuse their power is completely wrong ... "for they know not what they have done". So many times on other forums (like VOY) I have read statements written by kids to other kids (mostly graduates) full of disgust and hatred. Please, if there is anything to learn from all this, it is that forgiveness is divine. Hatred is the devil's work. Don't go there!!
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As far as upper levels and lower levels go: I definitely know for a fact that 90 percent of the lower level kids considered upper levels nazi's. There were pros and cons to this; a lot of kids felt like they were being held back by other kids and it wasn't fair, but at the same time were able to learn a lot. The universe is the most brutal of teachers, but the best. Sometimes in life, unconscious mistakes like forgetting to pay bills or something can land you in jail- a pretty harsh consequence. Someone who was a member of society would not be allowed to simply roam about doing whatever they want: smashing windows, spitting in people's faces, not paying bills...they would be taken out of society and placed in jail. The program was no different; I can understand a lot of parents feeling very uncomfortable with how strict the rules were, but it gave us a all the chance we needed to grow up- which some people won't do until they are forced to. I am living on my own now, and I know that if I avoid doing what I need to do, or if I get tickets or fines then I am ONLY HOLDING MYSELF BACK- I am not going to be able to weasel my way out of the consequences. I learned this from the program. It made sense to me before, but I hadn't learned it yet.
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On another note regarding the mail policy: no, I am not a psychologist, but I have read many self help books (in the program), and my mom has a master's degree in psychology from UVA (not a doctorate), and she thinks you're kinda crazy. I mean, maybe this Stockholm syndrome is a lot more serious than everyone else seems to think, or maybe you just don't quite realize how the mail system worked...it really wasn't all that bad. Plus, I knew of cases where kids had plans of having their friends at home put LSD on the corners of letters and mailing it to them.... I may not be a psychologist, but I sure as hell know what d-lysergic acid diethylamide-25 (LSD)does to you-- it post-synaptically antagonizes the 5Ht-2 receptors during neurotransmissions (wrote a paper on it for biochemistry). After more than 25 mililiters has been ingested, you are clinically classified as insane- that can be 3 or 4 uses. Directly inducing a chemical into your nervous system sounds a lot more dangerous than not letting kids write to their old friends. And if you were to try and have the old friends drug-tested: buena suerte (good luck). I was supposed to have blood work done on me tons of times in the past, but I would run away if I had to because I always thought I was going to get drug tested. Truth is, some kid isn't going to take a drug test he knows he will fail just so that his friend can write him. People can get along without you when you aren't in the program. I am not sure if that plan would work for more than 3% of the people using it.
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To answer the booger (you spell it differently) question, if a kid were to wipe a booger from his nose, he would not be consequented UNLESS he was in line structure, where we weren't allowed to look to the sides or move or anything. Once you became an upper level, you were no longer required to stay in line structure when it was time to go to the next thing on schedule. If a kid wiped a booger on someone else, then he would probably recieve a CAT 2 (out of five CATegories) for disrespect to peers or something, in which case he would have 25 points deducted (we earned about 20 points a day), and if he did not have 25 points to cover it would have to write a 3,000 word essay- but the staff in worksheets (worksheets is the term for the room you wrote your essays in) was usually someone who spoke little to no English, and so we could all get away with writing whatever- I stuck to prepositional phrases, and I could have 3000 words pumped out in less than 45 minutes..."if for go to the but if be it then not to go for me if I were to show what I were....." you get the picture. Probably not the best way for me to learn from my consequence, but the time in the room alone was enough to make me think about it. If a kid were already in worksheets and he wiped a booger, then he would probably have like 1000 words added, or would get a check: three checks equals going to o.p. for an hour (the room where they sat and were restrained) but not to be restrained. If they were in o.p. and they did it, they would get another hour in o.p. If they continued to do it non-stop in o.p., then they might get restrained after a while, but I doubt it. The maximum time you could pull in o.p. by one consequence was 5 hours: one hour per day. Sometimes kids would be in there for longer, because they could recieve additional hours based on behavior. I was restrained a couple of times in the beginning when I was there: I got into a fight with a kid on the basketball court one time, and once for trying to choke a staff because he wouldn't let me go to sick bed. A lot of the kids there were really spoiled, and had never truly been "parented," and so they would not respond to consequences well at all- I was one of them (not to say I don't love my parents and htink they didn't raise me right). It was up to the program to try and interrupt the behavior that the kids learned would work for them (like refusing), and I personally don't think that it is quite possible to do that without the the person experiencing SOME TYPE OF INCONVENIENCE or something. Sometimes kids were forced to lay face down, with their heads resting on their chins, and after a while they would have big red marks on their chins for about a half an hour, and that always looked like it sucked- the mark would go away in five minutes, but I never agreed with making kids lay on their face, if they would agree to do it: that shows that they were willing to cooperate, and were close to ready to leave o.p.
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Christopher,
my goodness sit back and re- read what you just wrote..you'd get in trouble for wiping your nose-over a days worth of points lost?- that's incredible! How did that prepare you for the real world?
sorry that your parents didn't give you what you needed at a young age..I hope you will receive a suggestion to look deep into these practices before becoming a parent yourself...for the sake of your children to be- and for the boy still inside of you.
You could've made it to adulthood w/o these extreme tactics- please,please do some research on good parenting - try Positive Discipline (a book) and Adlerian principles...parenting with respect...your children will deserve it even if you didn't get it.
there is a right and wrong way to treat humans and to parent young treasures (like yourself)..truly hope that you allow YOUR children someday to wipe their noses- good parents do!
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Maybe these parents should raise their children from an early age (say kindergarten) as little "cadets" instead of little kids. Perhaps that would help them get through adolescence more efficiently and more respectfully. On the booger issue, are kids given kleenex or a hankerchief to use during the day as they shuffle back and forth from one activity to the next? Seems to me each kid should have something in their pocket to appropriately dispose of nose waste.
:silly:
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Hi Chris.
I did as you requested, and asked my son if he knew you. He says he did, and that you seemed like a good guy.
Thats all he had to say about you; but he has had a lot to say about circumstances at Dundee that differ a good deal from your perspective. It must be a level thing.
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Point of clarification for those who may have jumped in this thread midway-
The booger issue is not about kids being able to blow their noses or not. Although it's interesting that some actually considered it as a possibility. It's about guys wiping boogers on people in order to be sent to OP, where Chris said they laid around all day on towels to avoid going to school. That comment is back a ways if you care to read it.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-02-24 18:30 ]
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Chris
I was restrained a couple of times in the beginning when I was there
What did this consist of?
Sometimes kids were forced to lay face down, with their heads resting on their chins
What if they refused?
[ This Message was edited by: Kiwi on 2004-02-25 04:25 ]
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I don't think it's so much a level thing as it is a state of mind thing. I was a lower level for 9 months, and I had to sleep in the batcaves (except they didn't have fans when I was a lower level) and take showers in the shower room, and not move my feet when I sat down and all that jazz, also. In fact, most of the staff that were fired because they didn't think they were adequate for the job, were the hobos they picked up early on. The truth is, level or not, we all viewed Dundee differently- that doesn't mean that we all didn't go through the same thing.
As far as parenting goes- I was not trying to say that my parents missed out on a single thing when I was growing up. My mom has a Master's degree in psychology from the university of Virginia, and has worked with elementary school kids as a guidance counselor for over 25 years. She has has always shown me love and support, and I would honestly bet money to say that my parents are THE BEST PARENTS IN THE ENTIRE WORLD; they would keel over and die, if they knew that it would help out me and my future. They pretty much kill themselves everyday sending me through college after they spent my savings on the program. The technique that they used that I was referring to, was that whenever it came time for me to make a decision, they would ALWAYS leave the final say up to me. The same applied at Dundee- we sat down and had a talk about me going there, and I was all for it (of course I had no idea what it was, exactly, despite how many times they tried telling me). I think that the way they raised me was remarkable- I am a very contributing member of society: I volunteer at hospitals, just donated blood last month (I'm ab(-) for those of you who know about it), I go around to schools and speak at spanish classes because I am bilingual, I am excelling in school...I think the main reason that my parents sent me to Dundee was because I was getting more and more distant to them every day. They knew that I was growing up into the man I was going to be for the rest of my life, and they were just hoping I would make the right decisions. Turns out, even though I was doing alright in school, I was also doing heroin, cocaine, crack, glass, meth, crank, ANY pharmaceutical drug that I could get my hands on....in the end, after the program, I am now much closer to my parents and away from drugs, and I am the one that pulled myself out- not without support. I disagree with the statement that there is a right and wrong way to parent. 10 sets of parents can raise ten kids totally differently, and they can all grow up to be loving compassionate members of society.
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Being restrained consisted of lying on your stomach with your arms folded up towards your shoulderblades as someone sat on you. They would do this if you were refusing to follow directions: say you were told to lay on your stomach and put your head on your chin; after the first time, they would probably ask you again. The second time, they might give you 3,000 more words onto your essay after you get out of o.p. Then, they would probably add another hour onto o.p. (a kid can get to the last result pretty quickly, if he was being a real asshole) and finally, (especially if the kid was cussing and not calming down) they were restrained. A lot of days went by where noone was restrained. They weren't allowed to take their towel in there every day, but o.p. was usually a pretty relaxing place. A lot of times kids would run laps around the pool or sweeping sidewalks and stuff.
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Chris only:
Clarification question: "THEY" wouldn't restrain you if you were refusingto follow directions. What I'm reading is "THEY" would restrain you if you were a physical threat to someone or something (like a wall) or running away. What sorts of things would you be restrained for. It was for safety reasons, only, right?
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He said:
"They would do this if you were refusing to follow directions: say you were told to lay on your stomach and put your head on your chin; after the first time, they would probably ask you again. The second time, they might give you 3,000 more words onto your essay after you get out of o.p. Then, they would probably add another hour onto o.p. (a kid can get to the last result pretty quickly, if he was being a real asshole) and finally, (especially if the kid was cussing and not calming down) they were restrained."
Does that sound like restraint for SAFETY?
BTW Anon, how is someone a "physical threat to a WALL"? Just curious, since your perception is way different than mine.
Ever heard of de-escalation? Why isn't this technique used? I can only guess that it demonstrates respect for the other human- who is temporarily distressed and needs a hand back to the present- and goes against the "punishment works" philosophy.
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Spare the child, and spoil the rod. I have not sold myself to God!
-Patti Smith
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A student shared their experience with me;
"Mr Staff in Jamaica had said he "LIKED to retrain kids." Scary! Scary!
Inconsistency for sure.
How quickly would YOU had been put into retraint for calling a fellow "student" an asshole?
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Dundee student,
Would you please elaborate on the HOBOS for staff.
Dundee had Hobos to teach the kids? Am I reading the correctly?
Were they competent? Costa Ricans?
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Chris
I am assuming those anon posts were from you. Am I right? Could you please remember to log in? It can get very confusing otherwise. Thank you.
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Being restrained consisted of lying on your stomach with your arms folded up towards your shoulderblades as someone sat on you
How long did this last? I'm trying to get a picture: how far were your arms folded to the shoulder blades? Was this done to hurt or to restrain within the normal meaning of the word? If the latter then in what sense was it a punishment? We have heard reports of children's shoulders being dislocated. Can you shed any light on this?
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I don't think I did a very good job of explaining the whole environment of being restrained. It wasn't like the kids stood around and did nothing to get restrained. The closer and closer the child got to losing it, the closer and closer he got to becoming restrained. Kids would start to slam their heads on the floor and stuff...and walls. I know one kid who nearly knocked himself out cold. Restraining someone can be pretty tricky (gotta say I'm quite the worm myself when I'm pissed to the point of being violent). There was an ever-going search for competent staff- I would honestly say that the most competent were the jamaicans, even though everyone kind of has them thought out to be the true sadists of the whole thing. They definitely used the idea of de-escalation, though- especially in large groups like at the talent shows and stuff.
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oh, and another important thing- I think I know of the person that you are talking about who dislocated his shoulder. He was in and out of o.p. and worksheets for about a year, and one time in o.p. he went around telling everyone that his shoulder blade was dislocated. A few months after the incident, I remember talking to him and having him tell me that he lied to eveyrone to make it sound a lot worse.... that is the only incident that I know of for a fact, if there is another similar story then the kid didn't say it (which isn't very likely because our friends in there were the closest things we had beside memories of home), maybe on the girls side, I dunno. I don't know of any incidents that I can put my word on to say that are true.
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Chris - Did You Know ....
"National standards that restrict the use of restraint and seclusion apply only to psychiatric treatment faciltities that receive federal funding. They do not effect the use of R/S policies and procedures in schools, wilderness camps, jails or prisons." Restraint and involuntary seclusion have no therapeutic value and should only be imposed to ensure the physical safety of a patient. They cannot be used as punishment or for staff convenience."
Source: NAMI
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.homestead.com/CA1.html (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.homestead.com/CA1.html)
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On 2004-02-25 14:34:00, Christopher Riner wrote:
"The closer and closer the child got to losing it, the closer and closer he got to becoming restrained."
I am not familiar with Dundee Ranch. What things did they do there that would cause a child to "lose it"?
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Chris
I don't mean to harp on about this but:
How long did this last? I'm trying to get a picture: how far were your arms folded to the shoulder blades? Was this done to hurt or to restrain within the normal meaning of the word?
I'm still trying to get a picture of exactly what restraint involves. The descriptions I have heard are always very vague. Perhaps it is difficult to describe.
Also (not my question but);:
Dundee had Hobos to teach the kids? Am I reading the correctly?
In Casa the students learn from workbooks and the only subject actually taught is Spanish. Was it the same at Dundee?
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Do you have stockholm syndrome or something? I have not seen a single other person so worried about it as you. I can't believe that you think there was all of this abuse and neglect in these schools, and at the top of your priorities is the frickin' mail policy. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but your logic is a little obscure, don't you think? I just don't see how that's abuse.
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They weren't used for "staff convenience," and I would bet my money to say that if they would have sat around and not touched the kid everytime one of us got in a fight, or started slamming our heads on walls, or ran through the girls dorm naked- then there would be a lot more problem now. If kids who are known to push the limits are given a margin for error, they will take total advantage of it: look at what happened when Vargas came to the school and total chaos broke out. The only reason that the kids hadn't lost it before was because there was a system of consequences that the kids learned to respect-for the most part. The day of the riots, there were people smashing computers and banging up cars and having big sexfests in the bushes- it was horrible, and all because people wanted to "protect" the kids. Dundee might now have been federally funded, but I believe that it was by all means therapeutic. Even though we all knew that we were in a hard-working envirnoment, what we learned in the program gave us everything we needed to get by. A lot of people criticize what they teach in programs-- go to the self-help section of a library, and you will find what lies in the programs (my personal favorite is Wayne W. Dyer, I would suggest all you kooks out there read it- you'll learn to find peace with yourselves.)
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Chris -
what could your parents have done for you (at an early age) to correct you and teach good choices then so that this extreme step was not taken later...
how will you parent your own children so that they can avoid this type of treatment?
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Restrained would only last about 15 seconds, usually- with their arms behind their backs. Not everytime a student was restrained did they even touch his arm. Usually they pretty much just sat on us. Sometimes kids would need to be sat on for at least a half an hour just to calm down, though. I never had my arms pulled up all the way to my shoulder blades.
The teachers weren't hobos. The hobos were the ones like the kitchen staff, the maintanance staff, the worksheet staff (who only needed to sit and watch kids write). The teachers had degrees and were certified, but there weren't many- we didn't need many, most of us enjoyed working at our own pace because we were able to advance in school. We learned from the same books that I used in the U.S.- and my credits transferred over to Virginia Tech. There was at least one teacher in every department, and those who didn't want to work at their own pace or had a hard time doing it would sign up for tutors. Peer tutoring was also a really good system (that really works) that we used all of the time. The way that we learned in Dundee really set me up for college: in highschool you can get by with passing on the tests; in college you have to know the stuff. It was hard for me making the transition to self study (which was the only option the first month I was there, when the school was still really new) but I am glad that I did it. We can all live an easy life and get by if we want to, but there is only one road for ANYONE to take if they want to achieve personal greatness: through the school of hard knocks.
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On 2004-02-26 06:46:00, Christopher Riner wrote:
"Restrained would only last about 15 seconds, usually- with their arms behind their backs. Not everytime a student was restrained did they even touch his arm. Usually they pretty much just sat on us. Sometimes kids would need to be sat on for at least a half an hour just to calm down, though. I never had my arms pulled up all the way to my shoulder blades.
I can't believe you actually find this type of 'treatment' acceptable under ANY circumstances.
We can all live an easy life and get by if we want to, but there is only one road for ANYONE to take if they want to achieve personal greatness: through the school of hard knocks. "
Ginger has a quote in here that fits perfectly, don't know who said it, tried to find it but couldn't. "That which does not kill us makes us stronger, but I never really needed to be this strong." The only voluntary urine sample they'll get from me is a taste test
--Bumper Sticker
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Chris, the folks asking the questions and/or or posting information relevant to the topic (or sub-topic) at hand are not kooks. For the most part, they are people who appear to have a different opinion based on their own first-hand experience, expectations and demands. Others, myself included, have an interest in learning more about the dynamics of parent and teen relationships and how programs work (or don't work) to "bring families back together", a term that is used in virtually all sales and marketing materials by educational consultants, independent referral agents and program/school websites. From reading your posts, it's clear you are of the belief that these programs facilitate "family healing" while at the same time conceding the program is not for everybody. By saying this, you are more or less validating the argument of parents and teens who claim these programs not only "missed the mark" but in fact, crossed the line.
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Chris, I have to wonder at the 'soft' description you give of restraint. I have not ever seen or herd it described as anything less than very painful; of significant duration; and often for Extremely minor actions on the students part.
Many students, my own son included, speak of the stress and anxiety caused by hearing other students being restrained - b/c they cry and scream and beg for it to stop.
My son was restrained while in OP for requesting a bathroom break. Yes, he kept asking after they said no (a non working choice, apparently) on the third request, he was put under restraint.
He has not mentioned if they at any point let him go to the restroom. He has not mentioned if he pissed himself. A lot of kids do mentioned how frequently hapless students wet themselves due to not being allowed to take a restroom break. I suppose this might explain why so many complain of the OP room smelling of urine. But, I don't know if my son suffered this degradation or not. If so, its one of the things he is keeping to himself. In any case, Why do they refuse a kid a restroom break? And How can the request amount to the need for restraint?
I find this unexceptable. Cruel even. Purposefully humiliating.
Please don't try to tell me nothing like this ever happened. My son has no reason what so ever to lie about it; The many other boys I've talked to, have no reason what so ever, to lie to me about it. It did happen and frenquently; to many kids.
Do you really think restraint of this nature is exceptable?
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Last year while my child was having his teeth cleaned, he needed to leave before it was done. The person in the next room was moaning and groaning from the dental work that was being performed on him.
My son was white and sick looking when I picked him up. He told me the other patient sounded like the kids being restraint at TB.
The noise serverly impacted his day. Many of his days.
He use to write home that he was feeling stressed from the sound coming from the kids screaming from restraint.Apparently it occured close by.
A constant reminder one could be next.
When I had questioned staff, they stated I was being manipulated by my lying teen who only wanted me to bring him home.I only wish I had brought him home sooner.
Chris tell it to someone who does'nt know any better.
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Anon, why don't you ask your son to tell you verbatim what happened to him? I don't understand the reluctance of parents to probe their kids for specifics on issues like these and others (e.g. consequences for masturbation). It may be uncomfortable to broach the subject but so is talking to your kids about sex, drugs and rock n' roll. As a matter of fact, I think many kids find themselves in these programs because parents DON'T TALK TO THEM about the important issues until it is too late and the kid is already in trouble. Kids make mistakes, but they do learn from them, and probably more so than they do their successes. Parents need to be candid with their kids, have an open-door policy. It is the only way to ensure their kids will feel comfortable talking to them about issues that are important to THEM. How many parents really try to relate to their kids on their (the kid's) level? I'm not talking about being their best friend, kids don't want that, they want their parents to be parents. And they want boundaries, no matter what they tell you. Sure, they will TEST THEM and most likely, push the envelope as far as they can. Heavy drug use? Promiscuous Sex? Chronic school truancy? These are serious issues that alert parents their kids' need help to get them back on track. A process that for most kids does not necessitate sending them away for 2+ years. That is just a cop-out. A way for parents to get out of their responsibility to go through adolescence WITH THEIR CHILDREN, not some program.
:flame:
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You have made a valid point that is no doubt often the case.
I don't think it applies to me and my son; but maybe I'm wrong.
I do try to get him talking, and keep him talking; And when ever he does feel like talking I drop whatever I'm doing and pay attention.
He doesn?t want to be interrogated though and has told me so. He has told me he doesn?t want to talk about it. So, I leave him alone until he does and then lesson well.
If I push, he clams up. Always has. Its just how he is. Its better to let him bring things up when he feels inclined and let him say as much as he is comfortable with for the moment.
So, that?s why I don't know some things it seems like I should. Its not that I don't ask questions; I just don't always get an answer and I don't push.
Under the circumstances, I don't feel like I should push. Maybe I'm wrong.
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Anon,
I understand and appreciate where you're coming from with your son. I think you are doing the respectful thing.
One of my sons was required to divulge the horrid details in the discovery process for a lawsuit. I always acknowledged his feelings, "Hey, I know this is hard to talk about, but, we have to talk about it."
He has not told his dad anything, to this day. Neither of the boys have.
They have experienced so much disrespect and disregard for privacy that if you do push too hard, he may confuse you with them, on some level, if you know what I mean. My son wanted to forget about it. Talking about it brought up feelings of humiliation and stirred the suppressed rage he felt toward those who abused him on a daily basis.
The most heart wrenching was watching him wrestle with sorting out the confusion he came away with. Some aspect of his life wouldn't be going well and he'd blame himself. For many years he was unable to see how the abuse he endured affected him and his day-to-day life. The most challenging: insomnia, substance abuse, assuming everything was his fault, not knowing who he could trust, and over reacting to any perceived disrespect with rage. There were many times when I got the brunt of that rage. It was sometimes hard to remember that he wasn't really angry at me, but showing me the depth of the hurt they inflicted on him.
It was difficult to get him to therapy sessions. On the weeks he skipped out, I'd go and the therapist would advise me on how to work with him since I was about the only person he would talk to. Many nights til 1 or 2 am. And like you, I put everything aside when he requested time and listened more than I talked.
It takes time to sort it out. Their time, not ours.
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I don't understand the reluctance of parents to probe their kids for specifics on issues like these and others (e.g. consequences for masturbation). It may be uncomfortable to broach the subject but so is talking to your kids about sex, drugs and rock n' roll.
I think it's pretty plain that this Anonymous poster is thinking about an entirely different situation in her suggestion of talking to your kid about "hard times". Yes, this is an admirable goal, and goes a long ways to ensure that parents and teens are able to talk about problems and work them out.
However, we on this board are not speaking of "pussy-footing" around sensitive matters between kids and their folks. I perceive a lot of people here "pussy-footing" around the traumatic, disastrous, gut-wrenching experience their kids have had in a private prison. By pushing for an in-depth personal conversation, is the adult really trying to open up closed doors and facilitate communication? I don't think so. Pushing into private thoughts dredges up memories that disturb, promotes nightmares, delays the healing process.
Let the kids tell you on their own schedule.
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Christopher, btw, the 3-4 times taking LSD makes you "legally insane" is an old hippie myth. If that were true, no one who'd taken acid could be punished for anything, since they'd get off on the insanity defense!!! Two, that would mean that if you take acid 3-4 times, you can no longer tell right from wrong. Which is completely absurd.
Were you physically dependent on heroin? Did you inject it? How often? How frequently did you smoke crack? How did you pay for and obtain these drugs?
I'm curious because it sounds like you may be one of the few people who went to a WWASP program who actually had a real drug problem.
Regarding Stockholm syndrome, you don't seem to understand what that means. It doesn't cause people to invent stories of abusive conditions: it causes them to love their captors and minimize their abuses.
Regarding the idea that tough treatment is necessary to get to the top, ever hear of George W. Bush? Not that I personally think he should rightfully be there, but it's simply not true that only people who have been through really tough times make it big. In fact, the people who have been through the worst of things are often stunted by their experience and do not achieve as much as they would have done if they didn't have to spend so much time recovering from the toughness. Poor people often are far less healthy than rich people, even though they've been through far more struggle. Sure, there are plenty who totally overcome and most people are resilient, but I wouldn't credit the Nazis for any post-Holocaust successes of survivors, nor the slavemasters for the post-slavery triumphs of ex-slaves. Hard times may make people strong, but those who inflict them on others via rules like no looking to the side online, restraint for not following orders, meaningless essays, etc. are no heroes.
And, regarding independent study, I'd be curious to know how effective that was for science and math. It seems to me it would be impossible to prepare for college level calculus or physics without teachers. It also seems that learning writing and critical thinking skills would be impossible in an environment of multiple choice and correct/incorrect answers.
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Any parent that suspects their child has been maltreaed should seek professional advice on how to appropriately deal with the situation in a TIMELY manner. While I understand why parents would not want to "pressure" a child into expressing their private thoughts and feelings,I'm noticing that many parents come forward with allegations of maltreatment MONTHS and even YEARS after the fact. Why? Did the child *internalize* their thoughts and feelings? Was the child "too scared" to confide in anyone, even their own parent? Does the child ultimately blame themselves? Was the parent WAITING for the right moment? These are just some questions that come to mind.
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Anon,
As much as I appreciate your input for parents to talk to thier kids etc. I wish was that simple.If only it was so simple.
In our situation my child would walk out of his sessions with his theraphist. When ever his behavior issues ,school,drugs,disrespect,truancy etc were being discussed he would walk away. It was a difficult time.In retrospect considering what happened after se sought help,I would do it differently. Maybe I would not have done anything at all .I would have allowed natural consequences take place. If he got kicked out of school,so be it. He didnt make it to Harvard anyway.
Never the less what he experienced with the "quaility care" we sent him do was not the answer for him.
He came home traumatized which took months for me to understand why.
I wish it was as simple as you imply.
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Anon writes:
Pushing into private thoughts dredges up memories that disturb, promotes nightmares, delays the healing process.
----
That's nuts! You don't know how your kid feels, because you haven't asked. ASK! Don't assume. Second, if they are dealing with disturbing, nightmarish thoughts and feelings, all the more reason to seek a therapist or psychologist to help them sort out their issues, before they start self-medicating to "get through the day/night". Honestly, it makes more sense to help kids verbalize their thoughts and feelings than suppress them. Get creative! Find a way to get the dialogue going. Trust me, your child will be grateful for the "gentle push".
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On 2004-02-26 16:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Any parent that suspects their child has been maltreaed should seek professional advice on how to appropriately deal with the situation in a TIMELY manner.
Did that. Sought advice in TIMELY manner. Professional advice was...duh...wait for them to tell you in their own time.
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Anon, don't take this wrong, but it sounds to me like the therapist/psychologist didn't know what they were talking about, or perhaps, misjudged the situation. Have you seen this list of guidelines and suggestions from ISAC on what to do with a child who is in or just got out of an abusive RTC? I still think it is best not to wait too long to get some dialogue going with your child, though I certainly do understand your reluctance to open up a potential can of worms. My own philosophy is time does heal all wounds, but not necessarily for the best.
http://isaccorp.com/documents/nowwhat.pdf (http://isaccorp.com/documents/nowwhat.pdf)
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I agree,generally. And I asked some pretty hard questions and gave many gentle pushes. I noticed a relaxed relief when he would finally divulged something that happened and I didn't over react. He did not want sympathy. Usually information and to be believed. He needed my reaction to be matter of fact. No emotion or anger. I vented that stuff with someone else. I'm guessing that he would have felt the need to take care of MY feelings otherwise, and that's not his role. He had forgotten a lot in just a year. There are still memories coming back to him after 5.5 years and the lawsuit settled.
But, if the parent is too uncomfortable giving those "gentle pushes" it can be a real mess. Anon Mom, if you really want to persue this but your gut says NO, you might consider going to a counselor yourself and get some help with your discomfort FIRST. Could be the guilt you feel for having sent him there to begin with. (I don't know, just guessing) Anyway, once you are comfortable and can listen cleanly (no guilt/sympathy) and not over react, he might seek you out to talk to.
I have no doubt there are things that my son hasn't spoken. Six months of daily torture is alot to recount. And some kids (my other son) were in for much longer, some for years!
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Have you seen this list of guidelines and suggestions from ISAC on what to do with a child who is in or just got out of an abusive RTC? I still think it is best not to wait too long to get some dialogue going with your child, though I certainly do understand your reluctance to open up a potential can of worms
The document you refer to also says, "If you believe that your child was abused and will not talk about it, give them time."
Seems to be the consensus of opinion.
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How much time?
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People seem to forget "program" kids have been conditioned to think and act in accordance to strict rules and enforced discipline for many months, even years. The child who comes home is not the same child court or "mommy" ordered into a restrictive, custodial, and therefore potentially abusive residential treatment facility, school or program. Time does heal wounds, but kids who have internalized feelings of anger, shame, and/or guilt will find it hard to speak of their pain to their parents, or anybody else. Parents should be proactive and not lulled into a "wait and see" mode. Talking with an adolescent psychologist to ascertain what parents can do to best help their child POST program is an excellent idea. Too much time can have an adverse effect.
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How much time?
IMHO the child should determine that. They may well have had their fill of gratuitous "help" from adults.
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What if the child is having suicidal ideations? Should parents just wait until the child does something to WAKE THEM UP to the reality of their inner pain? Kids who are at-risk of suicide following their exit from a program don't exactly where a sign around their neck saying HELP ME.
Parents should not waste time pussy-footing around. Kids who want to talk will talk. Kids who CAN NOT talk, need a compassionate, well-trained professional to help them work through their thoughts and feelings so they CAN TALK.
Go back and read LOST BOY in the Rocky Mountain News and then talk to me.
:smokin:
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On 2004-02-27 08:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What if the child is having suicidal ideations? Should parents just wait until the child does something to WAKE THEM UP to the reality of their inner pain? Kids who are at-risk of suicide following their exit from a program don't exactly where a sign around their neck saying HELP ME.
Parents should not waste time pussy-footing around. Kids who want to talk will talk. Kids who CAN NOT talk, need a compassionate, well-trained professional to help them work through their thoughts and feelings so they CAN TALK.
Go back and read LOST BOY in the Rocky Mountain News and then talk to me.
:smokin: "
Sorry for the typo. That's wear (not where).
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Link to LOST BOY.
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/des ... esp1.shtml (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/desperate/site-desperate/0702desp1.shtml)
:cry:
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Everyone has offered wise ,intelligent suggestions. Thank you.
I had spoken with at least five different professionals on this subject after the kid came home. Most said to allow him to express his story at his own time. Stay open to hear his need to share. Counselors at school helped too.
The most productive improveemnt has come from seeking legal justice. At one time he felt they could never be held accountable. His knowing there are powerful people helping to hold the bad guys accountable has helped.
The onslaught from staff telling the kids you have no consitutional rights,your parents don't want you home and so forth really took its toll.
Justice will prevail. I pray he continues to move forward.
My experience has been, many professionals find it difficult to understand how this can happen .
How in our country such blantant abuse, deceit has continued.How this has been allowed to happen. When I have shared they are incredulous,but not necssasarily surprised.
We have our work cut out for us to share our truth and knowledge of the Teen Help Industry.To make huge changes to protect our families, our children.
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Oh my, what a great but tragic story.
If nothing else, this paragraph is very telling about the dogmatic illogical attitude of program parents. Even after blowing his head off, this was her comment...
"Corey had snapped as he and Laura discussed implementing one of Teen Help's latest practices ? removing kids from their homes if they didn't follow a strict behavior contract.
Despite the tragic outcome, Laura says that Teen Help was a godsend. Without it, she says, Corey might have died years earlier."
So, as I understand it, Her son, while discussing the program, blows his head off right in front of her and then she still thanks the program for preventing his possible earlier death?
Fucking dangerous idiots, program parents can be.....
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On 2004-02-27 09:16:00, GregFL wrote:
"Oh my, what a great but tragic story.
If nothing else, this paragraph is very telling about the dogmatic illogical attitude of program parents. Even after blowing his head off, this was her comment...
"Corey had snapped as he and Laura discussed implementing one of Teen Help's latest practices ? removing kids from their homes if they didn't follow a strict behavior contract.
Despite the tragic outcome, Laura says that Teen Help was a godsend. Without it, she says, Corey might have died years earlier."
So, as I understand it, Her son, while discussing the program, blows his head off right in front of her and then she still thanks the program for preventing his possible earlier death?
Fucking dangerous idiots, program parents can be.....
"
Yup, I personally know of one kid who seriously thought about taking his own life after he got out of a program. No one to talk to, except God, who apparently was listening in and told him to put the gun down. What a miracle!
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From my experince there were many similar stories in the Source as well on the BBS .The tragic stories perpetuated the NEED to stay committed
to Graduate the Program. It did for me.The fear of the worse was shoved in our faces constantly.
I find myself wondering how the Exit plan can assist with the goal of "Whole and Healthy Familys." These children have no hope if their parents are major brain washed control freaks.
Cory is in a better place.
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Noone can be legally punished (for the drug)because they cannot prove they have induced LSD into their system; spinal taps are the only possible way to detect the acid and are illegal (to my understanding).
I had never injected heroin- heroin is actually the drug I have done the least. I started out smoking crank once or twice a week in the ninth grade (after pot and trying acid in the eighth grade), and after about six months had moved up to every other day. My friends and I would steal money from our parents almost every day, and also pawn stuff for money, or sell drugs to kids who didn't know how much they were supposed to get or something. Before long we had our own little enterprising system of keeping a steady income of drugs, and had moved up to doing grams of cocaine a day. I was introduced to glass (methamphetamine), and knew someone who would get tons of it (not literally) to sell, and he would always give me some for selling it for him. I never injected this, either; I usually smoked it. After a while I started doing something called "hotrails", where I would use a blow torch to heat up a glass tube, and then sniff a "line" through the glass tube. What it did, was melt the drug as it went up the tube, and it would hit your nasal passage as a boiling hot liquid- but the heat would cook it and also cause it to smoke, so you inhaled smoke during the process (smoking cased your buzz to increase the fastest- the actice drugs go directly from your lungs into your blood stream carried on hemoglobins with the oxygen). It was painful, but strangely addictive.
You are right, I have no idea what stockholm syndrome means. I didn't think that it caused you to lie about abuse though. So are you saying it like creates a defense mechanism to care about your "captors" so you don't get abused by them?
"Regarding the idea that tough treatment is necessary to get to the top, ever hear of George W. Bush? Not that I personally think he should rightfully be there, but it's simply not true that only people who have been through really tough times make it big. In fact, the people who have been through the worst of things are often stunted by their experience and do not achieve as much as they would have done if they didn't have to spend so much time recovering from the toughness-"
I took this from your message. I suggest you read Wayne W. Dyers line of books. How well we manage our emotions, and how long it takes to deal with them, is entirely up to us. I believe in it. I think we all can be stronger once we have fallen, and learned to pick ourselves up.
As far as the independent study went- like I said, it was a lot harder for the first month or so not having any instruction. Right now I am a sophomore and an engineering major, but I am applying to have my major switched to biochemistry. I have taken multi-variable calculus (four semesters of calc total), two years of physics, organic chemistry, applied statistics... I think that the time when I learn and understand the MOST of what I am studying, is when I take the book home, and go through and study it. At dundee, it took most of us a while (even kids who were bright and excelled academically) to adjust to self study, but we always had a teacher that we could go to if we needed any assistance.
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Sorry, Christopher, you can't test for LSD via spinal taps: another myth!!! The test would never have gotten human approval because it would be too risky to study for such a trivial purpose in the first place and wouldn't pass the IRB!!!
It's conceivable that in some cases there might be some remnants there, but because the drug is effective in micrograms (not mililiters, btw!!) (microgram = 1 millionth of a gram, milligram: 1000th, ml are measures of fluid and LSD isn't typically sold these days in solution and you'd have to know the concentration for an ml measure to have meaning), there isn't much that goes into the body and brain in the first place, so there's not much to stick around years later to be tested for.
Ordinary LSD dosing starts at about 100 micrograms-- most drugs, like say, cocaine, are only potent in the milligram and up range. This is why they show up more easily on drug tests.
The legally insane thing is just that: a myth, there's no evidence for it. The only way to find some would be to test people who claim they have taken LSD on their knowledge of right and wrong (which is a difficult thing to measure, to be sure, given the range of human values) and compare their responses to those who say they haven't. The only differences you'd probably find are in their views about drugs-- given that those who have taken them tend to have at least at one time been more liberal in their views of whether this is right or wrong than those who "just say no."
If you think I'm wrong, try searching the medical literature-- the only stuff you'll find about this is in pop culture.
All drug users think they are drug experts-- but they only know what they have been told by other drug users who know just as little unless they actually look at the research!
Regarding independent study: it sounds like you are a smart kid who works well with self-directed learning, but there are many, many kids who cannot learn math or science or even English that way.
And regarding WWASP's value in general: the only way to know if more people are helped or harmed is to do actual randomized outcome studies. When these have been done on similar programs, they haven't been found effective. Compassionate treatment has better outcomes both in terms of recovery rates and in terms of side effects on those who don't get clean immediately.
The book you suggest is simply one person's perspective: it can't tell you anything but what that one person thinks. The only thing that can say more is controlled research: which is why modern medicine has the successes that it does and
medicine that doesn't rely on the scientific method doesn't.
WWASP is essentially the laetrile (a cancer drug, which had thousands of advocates and hundreds of positive anecdotes but that didn't actually work when controlled research was done. it turned out, in fact, to contain toxic substances) of the teen treatment field.
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Chris you write:
You are right, I have no idea what Stockholm syndrome means. I didn't think that it caused you to lie about abuse though. So are you saying it like creates a defense mechanism to care about your "captors" so you don't get abused by them?
No, Stockholm makes you identify with and care about your abuser; even when they are abusing you.
Patty Hurst gets mentioned a lot. I wonder if it might not have been a factor in Jones Town and Waco; and other cultic situations.
Following is a perfect example of it.
http://store.aetv.com/html/search/index ... in+the+box (http://store.aetv.com/html/search/index.jhtml;jsessionid=XQXITX1AT2XBIQOXHDDR5V0B022MQIY4?search=the+girl+in+the+box)
Search On: the girl in the box
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American Justice: The Girl In The Box
Hear from the woman who was held captive for seven years, and the man who claims her she was a voluntary prisoner. 1 Volume Set. 50 Minutes. Availability: 7-10 days
$29.95 CC
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yeah, I remember now that LSD is in micrograms, but all the scientific jargon aside- I have eaten acid between 15-20 times. I don't consider myself insane, however every night before I go to bed, I can sit and stare long enough and shadows will start moving. Curtains, sometimes. I have a hard time telling if it is from a close by air-vent or if it is just a hallucination. I have a friend who's brother ate acid one time and is now 30 years old and living with his parents recieving disability checks because of it. The matter at hand was kids having access to this by putting it on the corners of papers.
As far as the purchasing of LSD goes- you can say all you want about how us ex-drug users think we know everything about drugs, but how much acid have you bought in your days? Acid ALWAYS comes in solution; whether you buy blotter paper, sugar cubes, or geltabs, it all comes from the chemist as a liquid (maybe not the actual d-lysergic din a vile, and is dropped onto some of these things. And btw, we have both been slightly inaccuracte about the dosage: for clarification, it is used in micrograms/mililiter-- usually between 100 micrograms and 1000 micrograms, or 1 milligram per litre (depending on how diluted it was by the time you got it).
I suggest you look at what you said about judging between right and wrong (and how it is hard to discern, based on values), and apply it to your thoughts about the programs. Maybe some parents WANT that kind of discipline for their kids. Maybe to their VALUES that is what they are looking to find; I personally disbelieve in doing away with programs, I am sorry. I totally understand you wanting all of the treachery to end and whatever, but I don't think that shutting them down is the key. I think that a better understanding of where the kids are going before they are sent there, and closer relations between the program and social services would solve this whole mess.
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On 2004-02-27 15:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I totally understand you wanting all of the treachery to end and whatever, but I don't think that shutting them down is the key."
Maybe not the 'key', but it's a DAMN good start!Every act of a delegated authority, contrary to the tenor of the commission under which it is exercised, is void. No legislative act, therefore, contrary to the Constitution, can be valid. To deny this, would be to affirm, that the deputy is greater than his principal; that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting by virtue of powers, may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid."
--Alexander Hamilton
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Hey Chris, I took acid over 100 times myself and was a daily heroin injector for quite a few years-- but haven't used drugs since the 80's and certainly don't consider myself insane. No flashbacks either. Am a very successful professional, and know hundreds of others like myself.
And yes LSD *originates* in solution, which is why I wrote what I did about concentration. And I had the dose right: started at 100 micrograms, exactly as I posted.
Re: right from wrong. While it's hard to devise a test that would be value-neutral enough to determine whether people know right from wrong cross-culturally (for example, you'd get a lot of disagreement about gay marriage) so you could do former LSD-takers v. others on morality, I do think there are certain universals and am not a cultural relativist.
To wit:
murder
torture
genital mutilation of children
Always wrong.
It may well be that some parents want the kind of discipline for their kids that WWASP provides. But they aren't allowed to do it themselves or it's labelled child abuse. Why should an institution be permitted to do so?
Also, you are right that the key is to determine who really needs treatment: as you know from your own experience, no diagnosis is needed to wind up in WWASP and often times, parents simply send away pain in the backside kids, not kids with genuine problems like yourself.
I do believe the answer is regulation: but under any sane regulatory scheme, WWASP would be shut down. That doesn't mean that there can't be affordable residential treatment for teens with serious drug problems or mental illness. It means that it must be done compassionately and with checks and balances.
This also doesn't mean that compassionate treatment can't deal with tough issues: it just does so in a way that doesn't make them worse.
Ie, let's look at why you might be having sexual experiences that you later regret...
Not: let's dress you up as a hooker and have all the boys yell whore, slut, etc. at you.
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On 2004-02-27 14:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Chris you write:
You are right, I have no idea what Stockholm syndrome means. I didn't think that it caused you to lie about abuse though. So are you saying it like creates a defense mechanism to care about your "captors" so you don't get abused by them?
No, Stockholm makes you identify with and care about your abuser; even when they are abusing you.
Patty Hurst gets mentioned a lot. I wonder if it might not have been a factor in Jones Town and Waco; and other cultic situations.
Following is a perfect example of it.
http://store.aetv.com/html/search/index ... in+the+box (http://store.aetv.com/html/search/index.jhtml;jsessionid=XQXITX1AT2XBIQOXHDDR5V0B022MQIY4?search=the+girl+in+the+box)
Search On: the girl in the box
Sort this list : Bestsellers Alphabetical Price
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American Justice: The Girl In The Box
Hear from the woman who was held captive for seven years, and the man who claims her she was a voluntary prisoner. 1 Volume Set. 50 Minutes. Availability: 7-10 days
$29.95 CC
"
For God Sake, Anon! It's Patty Hearst (not Hurst).
:silly:
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All this talk about LSD is making me wanna DOSE! ::rainbow::
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For God Sake, Anon! It's Patty Hearst (not Hurst).
Well hell's Bells - you knew who I ment didn't you? Why take up all that space to ridacule my goof up?
Fro 'bout the above - unless this hits the next page - than that back there -
The acid comment -
Not me man.
Its an interesting experaince; but not one I'd want again. Much to intence; goes on for far to long, and the flash backs are un-nerving.
The Rocking Horse people eating the marshmellow pies can be kind nightmarish, ya know?
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It's definiely not for everybody...
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Now, other anon,
you can correct more of my goof ups.
Have fun :wink:
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i agree, i'll take a pass on that. no lsd for me thank you!
the thing now from what i understand is ecstacy.
double no thanks on that. isn't that the shit w/the date rape drug (ghb?)
girls/women-- BEWARE! DANGER. someone dropped that in my drink in N Orleans, and i was soo sick. i slept for two days and barely ate or could drink ANYTHING. he bought me a drink and brought it to me. i could see him but he had to walk through a crowd b/f he handed my drink to me. i just KNEW it was him, but i effin didnt KNOW him. awful experience. when i finally came round, i thought, that shit coulda killed me. no doubt.
dont leave your drink and unless you're watching the bar tender make you your bought drink, dont drink one they bought for you (made for you, whatever, where-ever, bar, house party, etc.) :scared:
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Hahaha, you've dosed over 100 times? You must have the skull of a moose. You might say you aren't crazy, but now I know EXACTLY where that paranoid schizophrenia about the mail situation originates from (assuming you are the anon that I think you are- the guy who has that weird problem with the mail policy). Naw, I'm just giving you a hard time, I hope your feelings aren't dented. I just had to throw in a left hook after your right cross (when you proved to everyone that you knew what you were talking about...you had it posted exactly right the first time).
As far as right and wrong goes- I am telling you man, you can't win this argument. There honestly is no such thing as right or wrong, good or bad. It's all how you process it, as the individual you are. I will say that on a large scale, opinions about murder and torture are generally the same- those types of things are unaccepted by most. Just because a certain number of people believe in one thing, it doesn't make it right. Right and wrong is a system based on overall and general opinions of society as a whole. Jesus was killed for our sins- you gonna sit there and tell me that was wrong? No, no, no-- you always have to look at the big picture. I am not saying killing is justifiable, I am just saying what people believe as right and wrong goes only opinion deep. If you think murder, torture, and mutilation of children is so bad, why don't you start fighting to stop all of the things that we are causing in Iraq?
I am probably going to stop posting on here because these threads are really just a big circle of opinions, which is really nice, but not a whole lot of people are really accepting everyone elses'. As far as WWASP goes, I can understand you wanting them to be shut down because of their track record with alleged abuse thus far. You said that it wouldn't be the end of the world for the teen help industry (which I think we all agree that the idea of a school that ACTUALLY HELPS THE KIDS is a good idea) because there will still be other places that are affordable. Who is to say that the problems with WWASP won't reccur with other programs? If your response is, "We will have these other programs with more checks and balances, yadda yadda yadda...." then why can't they do the same thing with WWASP? I mean, shutting down WWASP would definitely put an end to any possibilities of abuse (there), but it would also effect a lot of families who are in the middle of piecing their homes back together. I dunno, to put it in short: You don't want abuse and you are suggesting better regulations on these schools; why shut down all WWASPS programs and put 1400 families into situations that definitely wouldn't help them out, when you could just slap those regulations on WWASP, instead? What would the difference be?