Post by: Hamiltonf on January 24, 2004, 06:39:00 PM
The only way to really know whether the "treatment" is valid is to look at the whole cross section of the people who have been referred to the program from scratch, and compare that to the whole of what comes out at the other end.
Consider these statistics about Toronto's Drug Court, which has been heralded as a success. (Canadian Bar Association, November 2003)
517 accused referred to the court.
329 accepted into the program of whom, 72% were expelled or withdrew, 13% graduated, 14,5%are continuing in the program.
The recidivism rate was 55.5% compared to 72% among those who were not accepted. Only 11.6% of graduates got into further trouble with the law compared to 63% of those expelled from the program.
So, if one assumes that all 517 had been correctly identified as having a drug "problem",only 43 of the 517 "graduated" (or 12%). If you add those still in the program the total rises to 90. 90 out of 517 is 17%. So at best its a 17% success rate. If you only consider the "graduates" the stats are no better than what you would find from a random sampling of all illicit drug users anyway. In other words, these people could well have recovered without the treatment.
But that isn't the only problem AARC would have -- there is no published research on AARC that would be available in the same way as these official statistics are available from a Court of public record.
How many "referrals" are turned away from AARC as not fitting AARc's criteria for entering behaviour? We don't know. How is the program evaluated by credible outside agencies? For example what does the Alberta Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Commission have to say about AARC? Didn't AADAC fail AARC, but get a slap on the wrist from the politicians in Klein's Konservative Kabal who didn't know any better?
Oh, I know, a former Calgary School trustee tell's me , "I've seen the stats, and it's a good program."
Well there's a lot of lawyers and judges will read the stats about the Ontario Drug Court described above and say "yeah, it works!" But y'know what? a trained statistician will tell you it's all spin. So folks, remember, in Bush's Drug war, as Winston Churchill used to say, "It's lies, damned lies and statistics"
All we have seen from AARC supporters on this page is lies and damned lies, but no statistics.
So, AARC graduates, show me your statistics, and get honest!
[ This Message was edited by: Hamiltonf on 2004-01-24 15:42 ]
Post by: Anonymous on August 26, 2004, 03:16:00 AM
Post by: BigJoshuaP on December 12, 2004, 04:57:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 12, 2004, 07:55:00 PM
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): lied; ly·ing /'lI-i[ng]/
1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression
Main Entry: LYE
Pronunciation: 'lI
Function: noun
1 : a strong alkaline liquor rich in potassium carbonate leached from wood ashes and used especially in making soap and washing; broadly : a strong alkaline solution (as of sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide)
2 : a solid caustic (as sodium hydroxide)
Post by: Anonymous on December 12, 2004, 11:37:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-12-12 13:57:00, BigJoshuaP wrote:
"Sober coming up on 9 years, pretty happy... have some good solid friends, education is going to be a challenge... that I am looking forward to. Where are you going with this Hammy? "
Not to the place that you have so obviously been visiting....
http://objective.jesussave.us/kidz.html (http://objective.jesussave.us/kidz.html)
I suppose you believe that the earth was created 40 thousand years ago too
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2004, 05:33:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-26 00:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
" I dont really care much for statistics cause, well I dont want to die today. I couldnt say that 3 years ago. Thanks AARC...:smile:"
Holy sheepshit batman. I have to say as a former staff graduate of an AARC similiar program (16 years ago) that I am soooooooooo glad that I no longer see drug use vs. sobriety as quantifiable in terms of the neverending battle of good vs. evil or far worse, life and death. I congratulate you for your three years of sobriety. I know that it is not an easy feat to accomplish. However, nothing is more cultish-icky-yucky-heeby-jeeby than the notion of "leave us and you will die, stop going to AA and you will die, return to drugs and you will die, go back around druggie friends and hangouts and you will die". Statistically speaking, the odds of you keeping your sobriety and dying a sober person are stacked against you.
I am glad that you don't care about said statistics.
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2004, 02:00:00 PM
Post by: velvet2000 on December 15, 2004, 02:18:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2004, 02:30:00 PM
No one who is out has anything to fear from them anymore and the more rope you give these people the better, IMO. Remember, the truth is on YOUR side. :tup:
Post by: BigJoshuaP on December 15, 2004, 06:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-12-15 11:18:00, velvet2000 wrote:Marnie, you delete posts that arent even harmful to your "cause" :roll: You delete posts that make sense and throw doubt at people. Im not on staff... I have been out of there for ove 7.5 years! I think you were lost...and needed to fit in somewhere...so you find all of the aarc haters who couldnt look after themselves and gave them a place to vent.. As for "surviving" - the simple fact that you are alive today is probably a symbol of what aarc has done for you, even though you continually negate any gratitude towards the place.
"The purpose of this forum is to serve as a safe anonymous support network for survivors of AARC. AARC staff post replies, topics etc, which are typically hostile towards survivors, and untruthful about "aarc recovery". Because they are not using the forum for its purpose and are creating a "rap" or "blast rap" forum instead, those staff members are not given a voice here. The description of this forum clearly states its purpose and the rules for posting. Any topic that does not add to the feeling of safety and support for AARC grads has no place here and should be posted somewhere else on the enormous world wide web where there is always room for discussion of any flavor. "
Post by: Hamiltonf on December 15, 2004, 06:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-12-15 11:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"yeah, but it just creates an atmosphere of doubt, IMO. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand and support the need for a safe place to talk about this kind of shit but I've seen on other Fornits forums how if you let them spout off it's there for everyone to see. They reveal the truth in their own posts and on a few occasions some have really seen what a destructive hold and effect it had on them.
I can understand that especially if you can see what is said in its full context.
Quote
No one who is out has anything to fear from them anymore and the more rope you give these people the better, IMO. Remember, the truth is on YOUR side. ::read::
Post by: velvet2000 on December 16, 2004, 01:23:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-12-15 11:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"yeah, but it just creates an atmosphere of doubt, IMO. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand and support the need for a safe place to talk about this kind of shit but I've seen on other Fornits forums how if you let them spout off it's there for everyone to see. They reveal the truth in their own posts and on a few occasions some have really seen what a destructive hold and effect it had on them.
No one who is out has anything to fear from them anymore and the more rope you give these people the better, IMO. Remember, the truth is on YOUR side. :tup: "
Thanks anonymous. I think the difference between our forum and Kids/Straights forums is that AARC is still up and running and there are many new graduates. Those new graduates are still living near AARC, living with family who may still be a part of it etc. Those grads are all lurking these sites and contacting us privately but they don't want to post because they don't want to partake in the AARC atmosphere. They start posting when the AARC staff are quiet, and then the AARC staff start posting out of fear once those grads make their posts. You are right that it shows their true colors, and it's educational for outsiders to read such posts, and many posts are left on for that very reason. But all in all I'd really just like these new grads to know that they don't have to listen to that stuff anymore, and that they can come here to anonymously say how they feel without having a derogatory response. It's important right now that these grads have a place to do this. I'm sorry if it's offensive to some people, but the only posts which are deleted are the hostile ones or any post coming from the same IP as a person who has made a hostile post.
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2004, 09:55:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-12-15 15:49:00, BigJoshuaP wrote:
"the simple fact that you are alive today is probably a symbol of what aarc has done for you"
A simple comment was made last night about how that sounded very cultlike. The intention was to place emphasis on the power and influence of stepcraft even 9 years into Big JP's sobriety. This morning, my post was gone. I haven't a clue why that post was deleted. Forums are for discussion and when that discussion is quashed, the forum's purpose becomes self serving in nature. No matter what the intention of the moderator/admin is, the forum must be flexible enough to grow, evolve, and foster free speech. I can certainly understand the edit of posts that could be harmful to those fresh out of AARC seeking a network of support, however the post that was most recently deleted was harmless in my own opinion. Velvet, can you please explain how that post violated your terms?
Post by: velvet2000 on December 16, 2004, 12:46:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2004, 03:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-12-16 09:46:00, velvet2000 wrote:
"I don't remember the post. It's possible that I deleted it accidentally if it was a reply to one of Josh's because he posts so frequently and I don't have the time to read them all. Or if your response quoted the entire context of Josh's post I may have thought I was still deleting the same one. I don't have any intention to censor you, so if I deleted a normal response from you I'm sorry, and you are welcome to post it again.
"
Understood. Thanks Velvet.
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2004, 02:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-12-15 22:23:00, velvet2000 wrote:
Thanks anonymous. I think the difference between our forum and Kids/Straights forums is that AARC is still up and running and there are many new graduates. Those new graduates are still living near AARC, living with family who may still be a part of it etc. Those grads are all lurking these sites and contacting us privately but they don't want to post because they don't want to partake in the AARC atmosphere. They start posting when the AARC staff are quiet, and then the AARC staff start posting out of fear once those grads make their posts. You are right that it shows their true colors, and it's educational for outsiders to read such posts, and many posts are left on for that very reason. But all in all I'd really just like these new grads to know that they don't have to listen to that stuff anymore, and that they can come here to anonymously say how they feel without having a derogatory response. It's important right now that these grads have a place to do this. I'm sorry if it's offensive to some people, but the only posts which are deleted are the hostile ones or any post coming from the same IP as a person who has made a hostile post.
"
I understand your feelings and commend you for wanting to create a safe haven for them, but in the end I think it does more harm than good. It gives the pro-program people the excuse to say "See?? They're deleting posts that they don't agree with". That's what THEY do. TELL the recent grads that they don't have to listen to them anymore. Let them SEE for themselves that the program has no power over them unless the allow it to continue. One of the best ways to END that control is to take it back through open communication. The more they're allowed to see what the pro people are posting, the more truth is revealed.
Post by: BigJoshuaP on December 17, 2004, 06:15:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-12-17 11:27:00, Anonymous wrote:Absolutely! If they can't see the truth already.... I think that Josh guy is brilliant, so stop deleting my posts.[ This Message was edited by: BigJoshuaP on 2004-12-17 15:16 ]
"Quote
On 2004-12-15 22:23:00, velvet2000 wrote:
Thanks anonymous. I think the difference between our forum and Kids/Straights forums is that AARC is still up and running and there are many new graduates. Those new graduates are still living near AARC, living with family who may still be a part of it etc. Those grads are all lurking these sites and contacting us privately but they don't want to post because they don't want to partake in the AARC atmosphere. They start posting when the AARC staff are quiet, and then the AARC staff start posting out of fear once those grads make their posts. You are right that it shows their true colors, and it's educational for outsiders to read such posts, and many posts are left on for that very reason. But all in all I'd really just like these new grads to know that they don't have to listen to that stuff anymore, and that they can come here to anonymously say how they feel without having a derogatory response. It's important right now that these grads have a place to do this. I'm sorry if it's offensive to some people, but the only posts which are deleted are the hostile ones or any post coming from the same IP as a person who has made a hostile post.
"
I understand your feelings and commend you for wanting to create a safe haven for them, but in the end I think it does more harm than good. It gives the pro-program people the excuse to say "See?? They're deleting posts that they don't agree with". That's what THEY do. TELL the recent grads that they don't have to listen to them anymore. Let them SEE for themselves that the program has no power over them unless the allow it to continue. One of the best ways to END that control is to take it back through open communication. The more they're allowed to see what the pro people are posting, the more truth is revealed.
"
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2004, 06:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-12-17 15:15:00, BigJoshuaP wrote:
Absolutely! If they can't see the truth already.... I think that Josh guy is brilliant, so stop deleting my posts.[ This Message was edited by: BigJoshuaP on 2004-12-17 15:16 ]"
Missing the point there big guy. Why am I not surprised? :roll:
Post by: velvet2000 on December 18, 2004, 01:56:00 AM
Thanks, and I also understand your points, but continue to feel strongly about the way I've been choosing to host the board recently. AARC members may very well say "see", but they do know the truth. Quite a while back there were flyers posted around Calgary and an add in a paper with an 800 number for anyone who's suffered programming or brainwashing in a treatment facility. The same AARC people who post here went around tearing the flyers down and some called the number saying that it wasn't fair. This add said nothing about AARC. These guys know the truth, they'll only SAY "see" for the sake of argument.
"That's what THEY do."
Precisely! It's only fair!
"TELL the recent grads that they don't have to listen to them anymore. Let them SEE for themselves that the program has no power over them unless the allow it to continue. One of the best ways to END that control is to take it back through open communication."
This is true. Unfortunately most grads don't want to hear one more word of it. They've just been through 1 or 2 years of being surrounded by it. I have a sibling who feels that way. They hated it so much that they chose to move on by not talking about it, not thinking about it, and when they are exposed to it again they just go off the handle.
"The more they're allowed to see what the pro people are posting, the more truth is revealed."
If this were a support forum for victims of incest or sexual abuse, members would most likely not choose to post on the same board as their particular abuser. We know the truth. We know who those people are, and we don't need to hear another word from them.
You and I - or anyone else who disagrees with deleting posts may never come head to head but I hope it doesn't deter you from contributing.
Post by: BigJoshuaP on December 18, 2004, 08:46:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-12-17 15:19:00, Anonymous wrote:Hmm... referencing intelligence? im a 139... what are you?
"Quote
On 2004-12-17 15:15:00, BigJoshuaP wrote:
Absolutely! If they can't see the truth already.... I think that Josh guy is brilliant, so stop deleting my posts.[ This Message was edited by: BigJoshuaP on 2004-12-17 15:16 ]"
Missing the point there big guy. Why am I not surprised? :roll: "
Post by: Anonymous on December 18, 2004, 08:53:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2004, 12:19:00 AM
Post by: BigJoshuaP on December 19, 2004, 12:20:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-12-18 17:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"148 :rofl: Im up there with several doctors... and the odds of you having that score is minimal, so pretend I didnt tell you mine, and make the number up again.[ This Message was edited by: BigJoshuaP on 2004-12-18 21:21 ]
Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2004, 12:48:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2004, 01:21:00 AM
http://www.mensa.org/home.php (http://www.mensa.org/home.php)
I am.
Wait, is that a "lye" or a statistic? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :lol: :lol:
Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2004, 09:54:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2004, 01:06:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2004, 03:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-12-18 22:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You a member?
http://www.mensa.org/home.php (http://www.mensa.org/home.php)
I am.
Wait, is that a "lye" or a statistic? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2004, 03:52:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2004, 06:27:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2004, 06:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-12-19 15:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: You're arguing with about 2 or 3 different people here. Again, try to keep up. :roll: Cletus go get the shotgun!
Post by: Anonymous on December 21, 2004, 04:05:00 PM