Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on January 23, 2004, 09:55:00 PM
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My 16 year old daughter started dating a 16 yr old boy at her school about a year ago. Over last summer, he became fairly heavily involved in substance abuse. We also had concerns about our daughter. Her grades were falling, she was defiant, she displayed all the signs of having a subtance abuse problem herself. One day in the Fall, he told my daughter that he had to go to a doctor's appointment with his mother, and would see her the next day, but instead, he ended up in a wilderness camp and has not been seen since. He's now in a school in Oakley, Utah.
My daughter was distraught when he left (her first love) and was not allowed any contact with him even by letter. I thought long and hard about what was best for her, and decided to watch her like a hawk, rather than send her away or into any program. In the intervening months, she has completely changed her group of friends (who are not into drugs) and her grades have improved. She's working hard and I have no reason not to believe what she told me, which was that she was trying to get him off substance abuse and that she never did the drugs herself. I'm proud of her.
However, she has never stopped loving this boy and lives for the day he will be allowed home. Even after 6 months, he is all she thinks about. Now, in the last week or so, he has (apparently) been given privileges to communicate with her. She has received 2 phone calls and a letter.
In the letter he describes how he wished he had listened to my daughter, but he didn't and now he has lost her, and that all he dreams about is seeing her. He says that the only reason he is behaving at school is so he can get a visit home to see my daughter.
Question: Should I tell his mother this?
My husband says that this boy has not changed and that if they allow him home for a visit, he will fall back into substance abuse or run away, so he doesn't have to go back to Oakley.
Question: If the boy wanted to run away, couldn't he do that anyway from Oakley? What is Oakley like?
Question: Is my daughter at risk if I allow her to see this boy again on his return visits? And what kind of emotional damage would it do to her if I tried to prevent it?
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You have no reason not to believe that your daughter was using drugs? Did you have her tested? What about the defiance and dropping grades?
He is all she thinks about? That is NOT healthy and giving her even a single thread of hope that she will see him again may keep her from taking care of herself and finding an inner strength that she doesn't NEED this guy in her life.
It doesn't sound like she needs a residential program, but it does sound like it's time she get honest with herself about what she is willing to accept into her life. Keeping friends that are not involved with drugs is a good start, but what else could give her a way to move past this obsession?
First loves won't be forgotten. Ask her what she learned from this relationship. No one can find healthier relationships but her. She has to want to decide to take what she learned and either repeat it or find other ways to be in love.
BTW - even A students, star athletes can be self-destructive and if they don't want us parents to know about it, they can hide it for a while and look very good in the process.
Have her drug tested. Watch her eating habits, monitor her phone calls. Sounds hard? It may give you more peace than you realize to know what is happening, either good or bad.
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Geez, WWASP people, weren't you ever teenagers yourselves? Didn't you ever obsess about a boy? Constantly? Did you get over it?
Or did you need your parents to drug test you and try to coerce you into dropping him?
Do you think that would have made you any less into him? You might not like the idea, but you ACTUALLY CANNOT CONTROL WHAT YOUR CHILDREN THINK OR WHO THEY LOVE.
I bet you never drank, never stayed out late, never mouthed off to your parents. Give me a break!
This girl sounds like a NORMAL TEENAGE GIRL AND MOM SOUNDS LIKE SHE HAS A CLUE.
Leave her be. Don't tell his mom. Let her see him. You're not going to be able to keep her away from "innapropriate partners" forever unless you are going to lock her in the basement for the rest of her life, and the only way she's going to learn
about relationships is to have them in all their screwed-up glory.
You got over your first love. Your parents, I would bet, didn't have any say in it or if they tried to, you did the opposite. Let her be.
People cannot learn without making mistakes and people cannot take responsibility for their actions unless you let them take their own actions.
And what if your daughter was smoking pot and it wasn't interfering with her grades or the rest of her life? Then, you could find out about it by testing, put her in treatment, convince her she had a problem (even though the defition of a drug problem is use that has negative consequences)and surround her with peers who DO TAKE DRUGS AND CAN TELL HER WHERE TO GET MORE, HARDER DRUGS AND HOW TO HIDE THEIR USE.
You don't put someone in treatment who is not having a problem. 50% of American teens smoke pot and 80% drink. They do not all need treatment.
Putting kids without drug problems in with those who have drug problems and trying to get them to admit they have problems only convinces them that they have problems. Then, if they do use again (and they are told they have a 99% chance of relapse), they will believe they can't control themselves, even if they actually can.
This is not helping, it's hurting.
it's often said in medical school, don't just do something, stand there! this is wise advice for parents as well because they never stop to think that some of these "treatments" do more harm than good.
that's not to say that people with serious problmes don't sometimes need help. but if there is no problem, shit, there's no problem, why make one?
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http://groups.msn.com/WhispersofAbuseSa ... abuse.msnw (http://groups.msn.com/WhispersofAbuseSafeHaven/selfabuse.msnw)
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Thank you for the feedback. I find the first two responses very useful, not quite sure about the third.
What's interesting is that both responses agree that residentail treatment for my daughter is not appropriate. It's reassuring to think I'm at least on the right path.
Also let me say that I'm not so naive as to think that my daughter has not experimented with substance abuse, with or without this boy, even though she denies it. In some ways I think that experimentation is a right of passage. Even though that thought makes me chill, I remind myself that experimentation is not the same thing as getting a habit and not to overreact.
I did have her tested a while ago and she was negative. She begged me last week to repeat the test to prove to me she was not lying this time either. That was enough to convince me without doing another test. I would test her again in a heartbeat if I ever have more doubts.
For me, the second response puts things in perspective. Let's face, there are A LOT OF DRUGS OUT THERE, so it's almost inconceivabkle that even the perfect child would not know a user by the time they reach High School, and probably by age 10. To me, that means my daughter has survived 6 years of peer pressure already, and already made her choices, fo better or worse. If the worst she has done is associate with an abuser and try to get him off it, it would be wrong of me to treat her as the abuser herself. Better to leave her alone and do nothing on the basis that she seems to know what she's doing.
Having said that, where I think the first reesponse has got it right, is pointing out to me that my daughter does not need this boy in her life, at least there's very little that I can can see that he is doing for her, rather than the other way round. That's something I really need to ask her to think about, so thank you for that suggestion.
And for the record, I watch her very closely indeed. She used to come in the house, shout hi and go straight upstairs to her room. No more. Now I make sure we haveat least a few minutes of conversation when she comes in, about what she's been doing and more important, she gets a hug. This not only helps the bonding, but gives me an opportunity to look her straight in the eye, judge whether she is on any kind of mind altering substance, and also to smell anything significant - strong mints - alcohol - whatever. I'm also checking her room more thoroughly than I ever used to do. So far - nothing sends up a flag.
Why someone would point me to a self mutilation website is beyond me. Although I can accept that a person with low self esteem gets a certain amount of payback from playing the victim (oh look at me, poor me, be nice to me blah, blah), that's a far cry from where my daughter is today.
Finally, thank you to whoever said she sounds like a normal teenager and that Mom has a Clue. I'll hold that thought until she's mature enough for me to ask her whether you were right, then let you know ( don't hold your breath...:smile:.
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Mom, your daughter may just take one look at her "first love" and think, "What did I ever see in him?" Happens all the time to 16 year olds. Remember when you were 16? But your daughter needs to make this decision.
I am an old woman with 3 adult adopted children. All of them have found birth relatives. My daughter was the last one to find her birth parents, and they are a real set of doozies! Both of them have been through a few marriages, (or sort of marriages), and now, that they have been reunited by the daughter they gave away, they are ready to drop their present spouses, and marry each other! The point of this is that my daughter's birth grandparents should have let those two get disgusted with each other while they were young. Then hopefully they would have learned from their mistakes and would have chosen better mates! If they didn't learn from that mistake, they probably never would. You cannot live and control your child's life. And no matter what kind of parent you are, your child is going to be what he or she wants to be. Just hope your child will be happy, content, and reasonably secure.
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I think the link to the "cutting" was just a heads up. This is one way kids can be secretive when they are depressed.
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What is wrong with you people? The "defiance issue"?
I'm sorry, teenagers are defiant. They rebel. They always have, and always will. That's something you need to accept. It's their way of weaning. The fact that you would even consider sending your daughter to one of these horrible places speaks volumes about you and WHY your daughter would behave "that way."
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Your daughter sounds like a normal, wonderful teenager.
Drug use and teen rebellion are not one and the same.
Teengaers are learning to think for themselves..developing their own beliefs.
You can guide them, but forcing them to do things your way will only alienate them and force them away from you.
Try to just be her friend and offer suggestions..you will get alot further..kids that are friends with their parents are alot less likely to turn to drug use.
Kids that were constantly overpowered by Mom and Dad, and thus see Mom and Dad as enemy...are going to turn out alot worse..
Trust me, I know..
Let her love the boy...and see him..she may be the only good thing in his life. She sounds like shes smart enough to make good decisions on her own. If she wants to see him she will do it behind your back, you cannot stop someone who thinks they are in love....
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I know Therion I was just horrified when I read this thread.
Why would you want to be so manipulative and controlling in your childs life.
And of course that poor boy is thinking only of her he is being tortured in a wilderness program, and you are about to sabotage his progress to meet your own adgenda.
I am sad, for your children for that boy it is a shame.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Necessity never made a good bargain
--Benjamin Franklin Apr. 1734
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On 2004-01-24 10:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You have no reason not to believe that your daughter was using drugs? Did you have her tested? What about the defiance and dropping grades?
He is all she thinks about? That is NOT healthy and giving her even a single thread of hope that she will see him again may keep her from taking care of herself and finding an inner strength that she doesn't NEED this guy in her life.
It doesn't sound like she needs a residential program, but it does sound like it's time she get honest with herself about what she is willing to accept into her life. Keeping friends that are not involved with drugs is a good start, but what else could give her a way to move past this obsession?
First loves won't be forgotten. Ask her what she learned from this relationship. No one can find healthier relationships but her. She has to want to decide to take what she learned and either repeat it or find other ways to be in love.
BTW - even A students, star athletes can be self-destructive and if they don't want us parents to know about it, they can hide it for a while and look very good in the process.
Have her drug tested. Watch her eating habits, monitor her phone calls. Sounds hard? It may give you more peace than you realize to know what is happening, either good or bad. "
FUCK OFF.Is uniformity [of opinion] attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.
Thomas Jefferson
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PM me.....I have two girls, 18 and 16. Went through a very similar situation with the older one. I'll be glad to talk with you about it. My oldest is doing great now, studying to be a nurse....but it was shaky for a while. She's getting ready to move out on her own and I'm biting my nails. MOst of what you described sounds like normal teenage behavior to me. I look at this as it's my job to GUIDE her through it, not hold her under my thumb, even if I think it would be for her own good. I never learned anything that way. I know this is a very scary time for you, but hang in there......the vast majority come through fine.
Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following
pages, are not yet sufficiently fashionable to procure them
general favor; a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong,
gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises
at first a formidable outcry in defence of custom. But the
tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.
Thomas Paine, Common Sense
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Hi...try to love your daughter rather than push her away...
Shes only going to grow to hate you, then her troubles will really be bad.
Dont be a parental failure...Try an open mind before you lose your daughter forever.
Just so you can come back if you choose not to listen Ill leave this
I TOLD YOU SO !!!!!!
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On 2004-01-26 06:05:00, kaydeejaded wrote:
"I know Therion I was just horrified when I read this thread.
Why would you want to be so manipulative and controlling in your childs life.
And of course that poor boy is thinking only of her he is being tortured in a wilderness program, and you are about to sabotage his progress to meet your own adgenda.
I am sad, for your children for that boy it is a shame.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Necessity never made a good bargain
--Benjamin Franklin Apr. 1734
"
I agree K.. What is it that makes some parents so blind and...just ignorant. Jees!
Come on guys this stuff is not that hard.
Parent, do you not have a heart?
Can you not follow your heart and make a decision
without coming on the Web and tying to find which "program" to send your child ...so that they can raise your kids for you?! And you think this boy is troubled..
You people are blind...you dont deserve children you fools! I wouldnt let you adopt my dog...
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Now go take another Xanax and scream at your daughter...or rummage through her room...or listen to her phone calls....IDIOTS!
Hmm Ill just disregard my daughters right to privacy and force my beliefs on her..Ill decide whom she loves, and how she dresses..and oh its not working I better have her put into a wilderness camp!
Dont you see ythe flaws in that??!!!
[ This Message was edited by: Therion on 2004-01-26 19:15 ]
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God, it is so heartening to read these posts from people who "have been there done that" but ARE NOT PARENTS of children in a program. They are children who were once in a program and are now parents themselves. Honoring their children and their duty and obligation to GUIDE them through adolescence, not control their hearts and minds behind the magnetic locked doors of some TBS.
Judging by what I'm reading here, today's generation of program parents would be wise to listen to yesterday's program children. LOVE YOUR KIDS and JUST SAY NO TO PARENTING BY PROXY. You won't be sorry.
:wave:
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Hard to believe that there are still people out there gullible enough to think that these abusive programs are the answer...I agree with anon^ :wstupid:
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All of these programs are pure insanity. I've been there, I know.
Please don't make a bad situation worse for your daughter's boyfriend. If anything, try to get him in touch with the ACLU or ISAC (www.isaccorp.com (http://www.isaccorp.com)). Then he might be able to work within the legal system to legally escape from the abuse and human rights violations that he is almost undoubtedly suffering.
If you do this, get him in touch with either organization while he is at home with private access to a telephone. If you let the group incarcerating him or his parents know that he is interested in contacting legal help, they will do everything in their power to prevent him from receiving it. (Isn't this alone enough to make you think that something is wrong?)
-Erik
erik.bowen@comcast.net
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Why would I want to be so manipulative and controlling in my childs life? Well how about the fact that my child's best friend (this boy)took my daughter with him on a downward spiral to cocaine addiction at 15. Do I have a problem with that? Yes I do, especially when he starts stealing money from everyone and is threatened in the street by the local dealers because he owes them money. That crosses the boundary for me from "teenage rebellion" to "need for parental intervention"? I would rather be labeled an overprotective mother, than leave my daughter to cope alone with a situation which is way beyond her maturity level. Both kids are immature for their age.
I did not try to stop her seeing him when he was here and I have not stopped the phone contact since he left, limited as it is. My question related to whether (or not)I should tell the mother things that my daughter has shared with me that she may not know, or do I want events unfold. It's a reflection of my good relationship with my daughter that she is telling me all this stuff. The answer here seems to be not to tell his mother anything, but I can't help wondering if she is being misguided by some of the decisions she is making for her son.
By the way, the latest development is that if he is not allowed a home visit to see my daughter within the next few weeks he's going to run away. Anybody have a clue where he might go, given that he is in Utah? He survived a 3 month wilderness camp already remember, so living rough is something they already taught him. My guess is he will do what he says. So again, let me ask the question: Should I tell his mother?
I have no agenda apart from looking out for my daughter, and even though I think he contributed to this situation he now finds himself in, by repeatedly making bad choices, I also think the parents have over-reacted, and that a local drug rehab would have been a more suitable choice. I don't know them that well, but I suspect they are in the group that thinks every problem can be solved by throwing money at it.
He's a sensitive soul - a poet and writer - quite unlike the strictly business world his parents are in, and I think their expectations of him may be unrealistic. But you can't tell other people how to raise their children and at the end of the day, they are only doing what they think is best for their child and who am I to say they are wrong.
They have agreed he should be allowed some contact with my daughter, (the only friend he has from his previous life), but they are very unsure about letting him come home for a visit. I have told them I would allow it.
The good thing is that having shut her out of his recovery program, they are now including her, and it's good for her to be part of something as important as this (his recovery from drug addiction) Everything coming out into the open and being discussed in a grown up way with her at the centre of events is far healthier than brushing it off as a "teenage thing" that needn't involve parents.
At the end of the day, I just want to do the right thing by my daughter and came here to find out more about the "behavior modification industry" because I know very little about it, and the more I read, the less I like, although I can accpet that some kids embrace it as a relief.
I was just feeling very sad for this boy and wanting to take him into my home and give him a hug, then my daughter told me he is planning to run away and "is not cured", whatever that means, and I suddenly sensed her concern was not about the running away part, but about his reason for it, that it is not about wanting to see her, it's about getting back into the drugs.....
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He threatened to run away if he doesn't get his way? What does that tell you?
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I've been through the SAME THING with my daughter. If you really would like to discuss it, I'd be glad to tell you what I did to get through it.....it was 3 years of being scared and frustrated. Private message me if you're truly looking for info. I'd be happy to tell you how I got through it.
In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws. But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws.
--Martin Luther King
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He may be threatening to run away because the place is abusive.
Since you can't know one way or the other, my advice would be to stay out of it. *If* the place is abusive, it could be that running away is less harmful to him than staying. Kids have died or been raped or permanently injured in these places, and he *may* be making a rational choice about his survival.
There's just no telling. In the absence of information, minding one's own business is the bast choice.
It sounds like your daughter is not interested in the drugs. It sounds like she wants to be okay, and wants her boyfriend to be okay.
I'd keep my eyes open so she's not at risk if he goes bonkers and does anything weird, but I wouldn't jump to conclusions that that's what's motivating him----as I said above, he may be planning to run away out of a very well founded fear for his own permanent physical well-being.
There are times to act, and times to sit back and keep your mouth shut and your eyes open.
In your situation, if I were you, I'd consider it a time for the latter. You just don't have enough information to act and know that you won't be doing more harm than good.
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From the way it was written, the boy is threatening to run away if he doesn't get his way, plain and more plain.
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If by "get his way" you mean to get himself out of a potentially (or already) abusive situation, then I agree...
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"By the way, the latest development is that if he is not allowed a home visit to see my daughter within the next few weeks he's going to run away."
This sentence could not be more clear on his manipulation.
In other words: If you don't let me go see my girlfriend, then you'll pay by not knowing where I am. You let me have my way or else!"
I would say, let him run. If he can run. Most places are secure enough that it's only an idle threat.
Forget about HIS threats and focus on what's important to you.
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This kid is not being abused. He's the abuser - emotionally abusing those around him
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Ok, I give up. Anon, I'm going to have to assume that you're nothing more than a troll until you at least tell us what your interest in this topic is..in other words..are you:
a) another program parent
b) an employee of a rehab, etc..
c) a survivor (ex-client, etc..)
d) ??
And your last statement is a kind of fallacy. Two wrongs don't make right...
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There are many ways to describe an event. Some of them make it look one way, some of them make it look another way.
It is possible that the kid is threatening to run if he doesn't get his way.
It is *also* possible that he's in a frightening and abusive situation but thinks he can stand it if he can only get out for a little while, or that if he can get out for a little while he can get help in not going back.
It's also possible that *both* of those things are true.
When you don't have enough information to make a good choice, frequently the best choice is to mind your own business.
When you're the kid's parent or caseworker, you have to make decisions on limited information.
When it's someone else's kid, and you're not his/her caseworker, you don't have as much information as the kid, the parents, or the caseworker (when there is one), and if you don't have enough information to be absolutely sure you're doing the right thing, frequently mindig your own business and staying out of it is the best choice.
Enough of these places have had deservedly bad reputations for child abuse over the years that assuming the kid is not being abused is not a safe assumption. Assuming the kid *is* being abused is not a safe assumption.
Staying out of it is the wisest course of action for the other mom.
Keeping in mind the whole, "not enough information" thing, the daughter sounds like she has her head screwed on pretty straight, for a teen. I would talk to the daughter to make sure she understands the difference between mature romantic love among equals and "rescuing" behavior.
It sounds to me like she may be trying to rescue or save this boy who's damaged goods.
I don't think he should be abused, but I also wouldn't want my daughter to date him.
Thing is, you really can't control that without provoking an overreaction in your daughter and pushing her away---it's the nature of the age she is.
Maybe a good family therapist could help you plant the seeds to get your daughter thinking about whether she loves this boy or is trying to save him/cure him/rescue him.
People that need saving aren't good romantic partners. And *why* is she looking for a partner she needs to save/mother/rescue? How comfortable is she with her own attractiveness and her own self-worth? She should be shooting for a guy who's about the same level of attractiveness, intelligence, prospects as she has---and should have no trouble finding such dates.
At that age, all the love you know has been parent-child. Sorting out the differences between parent-child love and romantic love is challenging.
I'm not saying she shouldn't be friends with this boy, and I'm not saying you should intervene *directly*, or even indirectly, to break them up.
I'm saying what I'd be concerned about with her is why she's looking for dates she can mother---because if you don't fix that, she'll end up broken up with this guy and go right out and find herself another wounded bird.
Don't worry about this particular boy---worry about why she's insecure enough in her ability to win and keep love that she's trolling for wounded birds.
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Kaydeejaded,
I have read many of your post in the past. But this one takes the cake. Do you really believe the crap that comes out of your mouth?
[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-01-29 09:17 ]
[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-01-29 09:18 ]
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Well shit, man - What did she say? I even looked back a page, and saw no post by her. Please use the quote function in cases like this, thanks..
Ok, I went back another page and found it..what was so bad about what she said?
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2004-01-29 09:34 ]
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She said "Why would you want to be so manipulative and controlling in your childs life.
And of course that poor boy is thinking only of her he is being tortured in a wilderness program, and you are about to sabotage his progress to meet your own adgenda.
I am sad, for your children for that boy it is a shame."
So I guess I left a few words out that did not seem ridiculous. I want to know where she and anyone else gets the idea that setting boundaries and enforcing them on your child is controlling and manipualtive. It is a fact of adolescent development, that teens need structure and discipline. They are emotional tornados developing into adults. Providing this structure actually relieves stress, in the fact that the teen now has fewer choices to agonize over. Kaydeejaded just needs to read a book about adolescent development.
To use a program analogy-remember when you were an oldcomer, the newcomers were driving you nuts and you had all these responsibilities to get done. Do you remember the sense of relief you had when your responsibilities were taken away and you had fewer things to worry about. Its the same principle.
[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-01-29 09:41 ]
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On 2004-01-29 09:38:00, exsafecounselor wrote:
"She said "Why would you want to be so manipulative and controlling in your childs life.
And of course that poor boy is thinking only of her he is being tortured in a wilderness program, and you are about to sabotage his progress to meet your own adgenda.
I am sad, for your children for that boy it is a shame."
So I guess I left a few words out that did not seem ridiculous. I want to know where she and anyone else gets the idea that setting boundaries and enforcing them on your child is controlling and manipualtive. It is a fact of adolescent development, that teens need structure and discipline. They are emotional tornados developing into adults. Providing this structure actually relieves stress, in the fact that the teen now has fewer choices to agonize over. Kaydeejaded just needs to read a book about adolescent development.
To use a program analogy-remember when you were an oldcomer, the newcomers were driving you nuts and you had all these responsibilities to get done. Do you remember the sense of relief you had when your responsibilities were taken away and you had fewer things to worry about. Its the same principle.
[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-01-29 09:41 ]"
By your logic we'd all be happiest and most unstressed on massah's plantation with no choices to worry about. Jes tote dat barge, an lif dat bale.
You moron. :flame:
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On 2004-01-29 09:38:00, exsafecounselor wrote:
"She said "Why would you want to be so manipulative and controlling in your childs life.
And of course that poor boy is thinking only of her he is being tortured in a wilderness program, and you are about to sabotage his progress to meet your own adgenda.
I am sad, for your children for that boy it is a shame."
So I guess I left a few words out that did not seem ridiculous. I want to know where she and anyone else gets the idea that setting boundaries and enforcing them on your child is controlling and manipualtive. It is a fact of adolescent development, that teens need structure and discipline. They are emotional tornados developing into adults. Providing this structure actually relieves stress, in the fact that the teen now has fewer choices to agonize over. Kaydeejaded just needs to read a book about adolescent development.
To use a program analogy-remember when you were an oldcomer, the newcomers were driving you nuts and you had all these responsibilities to get done. Do you remember the sense of relief you had when your responsibilities were taken away and you had fewer things to worry about. Its the same principle.
[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-01-29 09:41 ]"
Oh, and, by the way, you don't impress me as having a meaningful understanding of which limits are normal and healthy and which limits are not.
If you are typical of the quality of "counselors" messing around in the kids' heads, I can see why so many kids ended up psychological/psychiatric casualties of the program.
Go back to school, with an open mind, and get a PhD in clinical psychology. Or go to med school, graduate, and specialize in psychiatry. Then complete the post-graduation training to get your license to practice.
If you learn with an open mind, you'll do a lot less harm that you will kicking around in the world thinking you're qualified to be somebody's shrink when you're not.
Unqualified people digging around in other people's heads, especially the heads of *unconsenting* other people, do far more harm than good.
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On 2004-01-29 09:38:00, exsafecounselor wrote:
So I guess I left a few words out that did not seem ridiculous. I want to know where she and anyone else gets the idea that setting boundaries and enforcing them on your child is controlling and manipualtive. It is a fact of adolescent development, that teens need structure and discipline. They are emotional tornados developing into adults. Providing this structure actually relieves stress, in the fact that the teen now has fewer choices to agonize over. Kaydeejaded just needs to read a book about adolescent development.
To use a program analogy-remember when you were an oldcomer, the newcomers were driving you nuts and you had all these responsibilities to get done. Do you remember the sense of relief you had when your responsibilities were taken away and you had fewer things to worry about. Its the same principle.
[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-01-29 09:41 ]"
I agree that kids need structure and discipline. Of COURSE they do, I don't think ANYONE is disagreeing with that, but your definition of those words and mine are vastly different. The analogy of the newc/oldcomer holds no water with me...those are COMPLETELY different circumstances and you know it.
There are ways to discipline without controlling the person. Yes, I have a degree of control over my kids actions, but I DO NOT try and control the person they are.....these programs do...they try and mold them into good little citizens that they don't have to worry about anymore and they try and treat them all in the same manner. I don't even treat my kids in the same manner...they're different people, different things work for each one of them. You set rules, you set limits, you set consequences (the best ones I've found are the natural ones they get from their own mistakes) and if the rules and limits are not followed, the consequences kick in. If that doesn't work, you move to the next consequence in line and so on. If you have a teen that is not following REASONABLE rules......and that's a tough one, REASONABLE....or if there is danger to another household member, then obviously something needs to be done, BUT.......if there is good, open, honest communication and the rules/limits/consequences are set up and FOLLOWED FROM THE START....it usually works. IF it truly gets to the point where a teen needs to be removed from the house, it should NOT be to some warehouse/brainwash factory/"alternative" school etc. People get through this kind of stuff EVERY DAY without having to have some group of strangers take over parenting responsibilities for them.All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow.
--H.L. Mencken
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Ok, I registered so if anyone wants to PM me, here I am, the Mom who started this thread. Someone said this....
"People that need saving aren't good romantic partners."
I can't agree with that statement. Bad things happen to good people. Maybe I spent too much of my own life helping the walking wounded, and my daughter has learnt this behavior from me, but KINDNESS is not a bad quality in a person. If you believe that "what goes around comes around", then you help people, not because you want a romantic relationship with them, but if it happens that you fall in love with them along the way, what's wrong with that? Sh*t happens.
Someone also said: "And *why* is she looking for a partner she needs to save/mother/rescue?"
This boy was not in need of rescue when she met him, at least if he was, it was very well disguised. Not only is he the best looking guy in school who would have no trouble getting himself onto the front cover of GQ, (which to a teenage girl is quite important), but also, he is extremely bright (overlooking his interest in substance abuse), and he had access to the best of everything (and what teenager doesn't think they own everything of their parents). Too good to be true? Yep, that's what she found out.....
Someone also said: "How comfortable is she with her own attractiveness and her own self-worth?"
She's stunningly attractive, or she would not have attracted Mr GQ. Does she know it? Of course not. Does anybody at 16? It was probably her MODESTY that was one of the qualities that attracted him to her. I do not disagree that she has problems with low self esteem, but if there's one good thing to come out of this for her, it is the realization that she is needed. That has done wonders for her self esteem.
Someone also said: "She should be shooting for a guy who's about the same level of attractiveness, intelligence, prospects as she has---and should have no trouble finding such dates."
Number 1, that's exactly what she had in him (at least on the face of it). I guess his prospects have dramatically reduced since he's going through BM, but up to the time he went in, his only problem was substance abuse. I'm not trying to diminish the significance of that, but I am beginning to understand that problem could have been fixed other ways, or at least by the time he left wilderness camp.
I remind her often that he is not the same person, that he will have changed since he went away and that they will probably find they have grown apart, but she doesn't believe me. And what impresses me about her determination to stand by him regardless, is THAT is exactly what TRUE love is all about. Why would I want to destroy that part of her called LOYALTY, even if it is misplaced? She will learn if it is misplaced in her own time. I cannot force her to give him up, I can only GUIDE her, by making her think twice about certain things.
The responses here are very helpful, not least because I'm not good at playing "devil's advocate", but there's no shortage of you here!
Number 2, since she's truly in love, even if she were to give up on him tomorrow, she would not even look at another guy for a long time. In my experience it takes 2 years to come to terms with the loss of a TRUE LOVE (rather than an obsession or a crush).
Do you think I would be putting my time into this if I thought this was a passing attraction? Nope. I am far too busy for that. What is REALLY starting to concern me (apart from my fears that he will not even survive the ordeal, but let's not go there) is that this boy will want nothing more to do with his parents after he gets out. That's what I am beginning to understand from you folks. That's a major concern. Where will he go? How will he survive?
And where this forum has been imeasureably helpful is convincing me that I must do nothing right now. This is not easy for me, because I like to think I can take achieve anything if I put enough time and energy into it, but that's impossible here. Not only do I not know enough, I'm not in control and never will be. So I will not try to fix this problem. As one of you said (sorry I don't know names), I will not just do something, I will stand here.....
Finally, let me ask another question; (I just love this stuff - I can send a question off into cyberspace and get an answer from experts instantly that would take me months to find out by myself)....
I have made notes on 3 books.
1. Smoke & Mirrors
2. Drug Warriors
3. Smart Love
If I were to buy one book, which should it be and why?
Thank you for your time.
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One you didn't mention was "The Mastery of Love" by don Miguel Ruiz. Awesome read.
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You wrote about his good looks and his not being without anything. It really is about what's underneath, his soul. Most teens are about their looks, what other's think of them and being accepted by their peers. If he's in a good RTC, BM, then he will find a place where those things don't matter, it will be about what fills his heart or his passion. An effective RTC will give him so much more than getting clean. He and his parents will have the opportunity to re-build their relationship, communication and trust. It's hard work. It is to take a look at yourself and it sounds like you're worried about him not liking his parents. If he's not in a place that focuses on rebuilding the family, he may well take off and never come home. It's not just him, it's the whole family that caused the challenges. If his parents don't see that, it won't create the outcome they are hoping for.
Healthy communication is the key.
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On 2004-01-29 20:09:00, Verity wrote:
"Ok, I registered so if anyone wants to PM me, here I am, the Mom who started this thread. Someone said this....
"People that need saving aren't good romantic partners."
I can't agree with that statement. Bad things happen to good people. Maybe I spent too much of my own life helping the walking wounded, and my daughter has learnt this behavior from me, but KINDNESS is not a bad quality in a person. If you believe that "what goes around comes around", then you help people, not because you want a romantic relationship with them, but if it happens that you fall in love with them along the way, what's wrong with that? Sh*t happens
No, kindess is not a bad quality...but I think the point that was being made is that someone who feels that they cannot go on without the person they love is most certainly not healthy emotionally. This will have a very definite effect on your daughter. It is a way for him to control her or his situation. Yes, he sounds like a fairly normal teen that got into some serious shit with drugs...no, I don't believe HE needs to be in a program BUT...I think Frod said (forgive me if I got the name wrong) that it's probably both that he wants to manipulate AND that where he is is a shithole that he's DESPERATE to get out of.
Someone also said: "And *why* is she looking for a partner she needs to save/mother/rescue?"
Can't choose who we love, but it might not hurt to have a serious talk with her about how much of her life she'll be giving up should she choose to be in a relationship with ANYONE that needs rescuing (chronic rescuing...everyone needs a little rescuing every now and then in life).
Someone also said: "She should be shooting for a guy who's about the same level of attractiveness, intelligence, prospects as she has---and should have no trouble finding such dates."
I remind her often that he is not the same person, that he will have changed since he went away and that they will probably find they have grown apart, but she doesn't believe me. And what impresses me about her determination to stand by him regardless, is THAT is exactly what TRUE love is all about. Why would I want to destroy that part of her called LOYALTY, even if it is misplaced? She will learn if it is misplaced in her own time. I cannot force her to give him up, I can only GUIDE her, by making her think twice about certain things.
Seems like you've got that one figured out nicely!
What is REALLY starting to concern me (apart from my fears that he will not even survive the ordeal, but let's not go there) is that this boy will want nothing more to do with his parents after he gets out. That's what I am beginning to understand from you folks. That's a major concern. Where will he go? How will he survive?
Ya know, I appreciate the fact that you're a kind person and you want to help, but you can't take on the responsibility for him, nor can your daughter. His parents made their own beds, as far as the relationship with their son. He will be out one day and he'll realize what was done to him.
If he's as bright as you say and as popular as you say, he'll land on his feet with some friends until he can get his shit back together. If he doesn't get his shit together then your daughter is going to have to make some hard decisions about her life.
I'm glad you posted here. Hold on to the relationship you seem to have built with your daughter. The majority of this sounds like pretty typical teenage behavior...on your daughter's part and the boyfriends. Someone else here said that the majority of kids have used drugs/alcohol by high school and it doesn't mean that they ALL need treatment. In my opinion, only a small minority do...most need the love, discipline and UNDERSTANDING of decent parents who spend time nurturing a relationship from the start...not parents who try to create one in a panic when the kid hits the tough spots in life, or worse, send them off so someone can "fix" what THEY "broke" in the first place.I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use
--Galileo Galilei
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Verity, your mastery of Parenting 101 is quite impressive. Kudos to you for seeing your daughter and this young man as individuals who have a right to their own thoughts and feelings. Hopefully, these 2 kids will emerge from this experience with the kind of *battle scars* that build character because let's face it, if life really was a bowl of cherries, there would be no need for how-to books and Dr. Phil would be looking for a new job!
As a sidenote, my own experience has taught me that when it comes to learning lessons, there is much to be gained from making mistakes. Parents who teach their kids HOW to problem solve and are consistent in setting appropriate boundaries, instill their children with a healthy sense of "self" which is necessary in order to learn how to self-correct before "going off the deep end". Communication is key and if anything, my advice would be to keep the communication lines open. Let your daughter and this young man know they can count on you to listen and on an as-needed basis, help guide them through the rough spots. Isn't that what we as adults, expect from other adults when we hit those road bumps on this journey called LIFE?
a
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There's a difference between someone who can use some kindness and someone who's broken and needs rescuing.
Kindness to wounded birds is good.
Any romantic relationship should wait for *after* they get their crap together.
From what you've said about this boy, he doesn't sound like your typical wounded bird.
As for where he'll go when he gets out, you'd be surprised. Our family knows someone who got stuck in one of these places for trivial reasons and we've already offered our guest room for her to get herself back together when she gets out---so her parents can't blackmail her into an over-18 program.
Being popular, he probably has several good friends whose parents don't agree with what happened to him and he may be able to move in with a friend while getting ready for the college entrance exams and applying for financial aid.
Even if his parents are rich and total putzes, he can get as much aid as he needs for school in loan form. Loan obligations on graduation are better than his other alternatives.
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On 2004-01-29 09:17:00, exsafecounselor wrote:
"Kaydeejaded,
I have read many of your post in the past. But this one takes the cake. Do you really believe the crap that comes out of your mouth?
[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-01-29 09:17 ]
[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-01-29 09:18 ]"
Have you ever spoken to her? Other than reading posts? No I dont think she'd bother speaking to you.
She is awesome, insightful, sweet, caring, and has love in her heart. Unlike yourself.
She is honest...unlike yourself.
She is a good parent...unlike yourself..
So until you know her shut your fucking pie hole.
You are a moron and noone wants you here.
I asked you, politely,to be nice to the Straight
survivors...Didnt I ?
And you are not doing this...why?
Once again Im going to tell you..this site is for survivors, which you are not.
You have no business here, and I will now be e mailing a request to have your ISP banned.
[ This Message was edited by: Therion on 2004-02-01 14:39 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Therion on 2004-02-01 14:40 ]
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Actually I dont think they'd ban you anyway..
Arguments make good reading....and entertains me..but just leave specific people alone...I know Kaydee and Morli and the rest of the Straight girls have had their lives ruined enough by the likes of you...And they are wonderful women..and are more genuine than anyone I know..
So kindly fuck off while you still have the legs to carry yourself....
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If you look at the forum description, you will read this, "Resources for people considering specialty schools, boot camps or wilderness therapy for their kids. This is an uncensored, unmoderated forum where all viewpoints are both welcome and fair game for debate. It's a snap-shot of the Teen Help industry. Some days it's inspiring and heart-warming. Other day's it's pretty damned ugly. Enter at your own risk."
"So kindly fuck off while you still have the legs to carry yourself...." So why is it that you resort to threatening violence? Are you not able to discuss things maturely? Do you lack the emotional development to deal with your feelings appropriately, so you have no choice but to lash out?
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I learned it from your program.....
Lashing out is equal to care and love....
That wasnt a threat of violence...I am not violent nor do I threaten..
If I was violent I wouldnt warn you Id just do it.
That was a movie quote...but whatever.
The rehab you staffed condoned violence.
You are trash and I suspect your own family hates you. Wife making love to someone whilst you are at work?
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On 2004-02-02 07:21:00, exsafecounselor wrote:
"If you look at the forum description, you will read this, "Resources for people considering specialty schools, boot camps or wilderness therapy for their kids. This is an uncensored, unmoderated forum where all viewpoints are both welcome and fair game for debate. It's a snap-shot of the Teen Help industry. Some days it's inspiring and heart-warming. Other day's it's pretty damned ugly. Enter at your own risk."
"So kindly fuck off while you still have the legs to carry yourself...." So why is it that you resort to threatening violence? Are you not able to discuss things maturely? Do you lack the emotional development to deal with your feelings appropriately, so you have no choice but to lash out? "
Nice psychobabble.
Semantic content == null, but nice, fluffy psychobabble.
It's really a bit bizarre that a former employee of a place years and years ago feels the need to come piss in the pool of people who used to be the place's unconsenting customers.
There are a number of places I used to work, and if there was some board where people were trashing one of my former employers, I might disagree with them, but I mostly wouldn't care. Dealing with the criticism, or not, would be the former employer's problem.
I certainly wouldn't care enough to waste my valuable time verbally slogging it out with them.
Why are you still so defensive about a job you had years ago?
I wonder that. I really do. And I could make some speculations about what kinds of things would motivate someone to still be so defensive about an old job they once had, years on down the road.
Hey, why not? I think I will.
Long-term defensiveness often comes from guilt and pangs of conscience.
Isn't it time to make peace with your conscience so you can let go of some job you had years and years ago and get on with your life?
What was it the program survivors say they were told? "Get honest"? How ironic.
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exsafecounselor wrote:
So why is it that you resort to threatening violence? Are you not able to discuss things maturely? Do you lack the emotional development to deal with your feelings appropriately, so you have no choice but to lash out?***
I have never observed a person act "maturely" (rational, reasonable) when addressing the perceived enemy- one who is/was capable of perpetrating harm- in the moment. Didn't they teach you that in school? Or did you go to school? What ARE your counseling credentials? Just an FYI for you and other shade tree therapists- Are you aware that "counselor" is a professional title that requires one to possess a degree before refering to him/herself as such?
It's my experience that emotions and rationale are like water and oil, they don't mix. Vent the emotion and rationale is forthcoming. And sometimes the perpetrator deserves to hear the vehement resentment that was suppressed for so long under his/her control. Pretty common recovery process for victims, even if the perpetrator isn't present. You may not have been his personal counselor, but you appear to be a rep for the program, and proud of it- an easy target.
One good lashing out deserves another. My guess is that he had a reaction to YOUR very "mature" comment to kaydee, "I have read many of your post in the past. But this one takes the cake. Do you really believe the crap that comes out of your mouth?" Would that be an example of the, "emotional development, maturity, and discussion" you speak of. Sounds more like you're still trying to control the thoughts of others- while labeling them defective and hiding behind the "counselor" title.
We all have our reaction point. You're right down here in the trenches with the rest of us human beings, so get off your high horse and take your rightful place. You might do well to listen more than you talk, a really fine way to learn and gain understanding.
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Deborah makes a damned good point here, ESC. I was thinking along the same lines, but didn't bother to respond. You came off like a jackass with that remark about Kady, and given the fact that you "appear to be a rep for the program, and proud of it" (as Deborah stated) among other things, gave Therion ALL HE NEEDED to blast your sorry ass. Well, too fukkin' bad...I hate to tell you this, but...
You're started over! Three and 14!! :rofl: :rofl:
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Exsafecounselor....
yes, I do
especially when I call you ignorant
stupid impotent
prgrogrammed
dumb
and I think you proved it even more by telling us all you were happier when you were stripped of your responsibilities and didn't even have to decided when to eat sleep pee or get up or sit down.
Or to use a "program anaology" You are a dead weight.
You probably were one of those people who just lived for the group thats why you come here you lack an identity.
I no longer feel any rage for you dude just pity.
Sorry for all the mean things I said in the past. It must be lonely being you. :cry: :sad: He who laughs lasts
--Crazy Mac
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Meanwhile....this poor boy (remember him, the subject of this thread?), is in crisis right now....
Hey, I understand you folks need to vent. I don't have a problem with that at all, but could you please do it on someone else's time, because I need every second to think about what's developing here hour by hour.
I am also taking this opportunity to thank those who have contacted me offlist, have shared their knowledge and experience and are guiding me through this very strange passage. You know who you are.
Thank you foe being so kind.
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That's kinda like daring the cook not to chew when you have SCHMUCKS like ESC spouting their BS here...but I hear you, and I hope everything works out for the best with that situation..
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On 2004-02-02 21:19:00, Deborah wrote:
"exsafecounselor wrote:
So why is it that you resort to threatening violence? Are you not able to discuss things maturely? Do you lack the emotional development to deal with your feelings appropriately, so you have no choice but to lash out?***
I have never observed a person act "maturely" (rational, reasonable) when addressing the perceived enemy- one who is/was capable of perpetrating harm- in the moment. Didn't they teach you that in school? Or did you go to school? What ARE your counseling credentials? Just an FYI for you and other shade tree therapists- Are you aware that "counselor" is a professional title that requires one to possess a degree before refering to him/herself as such?
It's my experience that emotions and rationale are like water and oil, they don't mix. Vent the emotion and rationale is forthcoming. And sometimes the perpetrator deserves to hear the vehement resentment that was suppressed for so long under his/her control. Pretty common recovery process for victims, even if the perpetrator isn't present. You may not have been his personal counselor, but you appear to be a rep for the program, and proud of it- an easy target.
One good lashing out deserves another. My guess is that he had a reaction to YOUR very "mature" comment to kaydee, "I have read many of your post in the past. But this one takes the cake. Do you really believe the crap that comes out of your mouth?" Would that be an example of the, "emotional development, maturity, and discussion" you speak of. Sounds more like you're still trying to control the thoughts of others- while labeling them defective and hiding behind the "counselor" title.
We all have our reaction point. You're right down here in the trenches with the rest of us human beings, so get off your high horse and take your rightful place. You might do well to listen more than you talk, a really fine way to learn and gain understanding.
"
Or you can just remove yourself from triggers to a reaction...don't take it personally or react. Unless you thrive on trauma -drama in your life.
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::bandit:: ::bandit:: ::bandit::
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Ex-Safe Counselor is a pussy! :rofl:
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Dude of course.
We arent 15 year old kids...
You cant talk to a grown man the way they talked to us in Straight..Thats how people wind up with their jaws wired shut..
I dont give a shit about him either way..But I stick up for friends..What else does one really have in life but Friends and Family? (If you are lucky enough to have both) Unfortunately I dont have much of a family, so I am extra close with friends
_________________
Waking up to an alarm
Sticking needles in your arm
Picking up trash on a freeway
Feeling depressed everyday
Leaving without making a sound
Picking my dog at the pound
Living in a tweeker pad
Getting yelled at by my dad
[ This Message was edited by: Therion on 2004-02-06 21:45 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Therion on 2004-02-06 21:46 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Therion on 2004-02-06 21:52 ]
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I hear ya, and thanks. My main intention was to bump up the thread, so I got a little creative..
Ok ESC, I take it back, even though you are one..
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Dont take it back...He didnt take it back when he sent his hungry Sr Staff bulldogs into group to destroy 13 year old girls minds...
Fucking cunt...(him not you Froed)
_________________
Waking up to an alarm
Sticking needles in your arm
Picking up trash on a freeway
Feeling depressed everyday
Leaving without making a sound
Picking my dog at the pound
Living in a tweeker pad
Getting yelled at by my dad
[ This Message was edited by: Therion on 2004-02-06 22:22 ]
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Oh and Exsafe...Of course Im going to stick up for Kaydee...shes little bitty 5 foot tall woman and you have no business saying shit to her..
Take your lumps and smile motherfucker...or keep your clap trap shut.. :wave: