Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on January 06, 2004, 09:16:00 AM
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http://www.abundantlifeacademy.com/phpb ... c.php?t=19 (http://www.abundantlifeacademy.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=19)
Introducing Karen Burnett as the ALA Family
Representative
http://www.abundantlifeacademy.com/phpb ... ic.php?t=4 (http://www.abundantlifeacademy.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=4)
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http://amazingforums.com/forum/BS4/184.html (http://amazingforums.com/forum/BS4/184.html)
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Dear Karen,
Contrary to your statement on the Abundant Life Academy discussion forum, Fornits is a VERY Christian place to be. Shame on you for using the Lord's name to further your own hidden agenda.
Who is the ANON that posted then edited the following message below: It is Karen Z.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... 9&start=20 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=2620&forum=9&start=20)
265 posts as Anon. How many as Karen Z? God only knows (or Ginger).
My point is this ...
Baaaaaaah. Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing.
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//Contrary to your statement on the Abundant Life Academy discussion forum, Fornits is a VERY Christian place to be. Shame on you for using the Lord's name to further your own hidden agenda. //
Come on now. You have to admit that the ride here gets pretty wild! The statement made was a warning that such is the case, and thus people might not want to go delving to deep. Thats all.
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Karen, Madhatter, whatever you are today...you may want to warn your director that the your introduction post on that thread could get them in a little hot water for heresay. You transferred your son to ALA after your were kicked off their forum for slamming Mormons in a very ugly debate. Transferring him to Abundant Life was a good choice for you and it all worked out, but posting about your reasons doesn't wash with me.
I certainly wouldn't want my child in your care with your attitude and beliefs. Talk about forcing beliefs on someone! You're a piece of work lady.
Anyone from Abundant Life Academy reading this forum should do a search WWF for posts edited by Karen Z to see who's watching your child.
Ginger, is there any way to find or show ALL those posts?
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http://fornits.com/wwf/search.php (http://fornits.com/wwf/search.php)
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http://fornits.com/wwf/search.php (http://fornits.com/wwf/search.php) - type in key words: mormon, karenz
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Back-peddling, are we Anon? I'd say it's a little too late for that. No wonder all those posts got erased. Not very Christian like.
:smokin:
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On 2004-01-06 07:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"//Contrary to your statement on the Abundant Life Academy discussion forum, Fornits is a VERY Christian place to be. Shame on you for using the Lord's name to further your own hidden agenda. //
Come on now. You have to admit that the ride here gets pretty wild! The statement made was a warning that such is the case, and thus people might not want to go delving to deep. Thats all.
"
Yeah, if people aren't careful, they might stumble across some information that is actually REAL FOOD for thought, instead of feasting on narrow-minded propaganda.
:rofl:
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//You transferred your son to ALA after your were kicked off their forum for slamming Mormons in a very ugly debate. //
Would you be so kind as to pop on the BBS, and pullup the thread with the reffered to debate, and copy and paste it here for us?
I would be most greatful.
Also, check the date on it.
You have made a mistake as to the timing of events.
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//Yeah, if people aren't careful, they might stumble across some information that is actually REAL FOOD for thought, instead of feasting on narrow-minded propaganda.//
Define narrow minded propaganda.
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//Contrary to your statement on the Abundant Life Academy discussion forum, Fornits is a VERY Christian place to be. Shame on you for using the Lord's name to further your own hidden agenda. //
Define hidden aganda.
//Fornits is a VERY Christian place to be. //
I doubt many frequent posters would think so, or want it to be so.
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Karen, get over yourself. Define narrow-minded? Read your volume of posts, oh, that's right. You deleted 'em all. Guess you had a change of heart?
:wstupid:
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http://www.abundantlifeacademy.com/about.php (http://www.abundantlifeacademy.com/about.php)
Karen - are you living in St. George, or ministering from your home in Kentucky?
I shudder at the thought of you ministering to those kids. But maybe that's what Christianity is all about - thinking their way is the ONLY way to heaven and healing. Somehow I doubt that most Christians feel this way.
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What is the point of this thread?
If I were a Christian parent and looking for a place to help my child, Abundant Life may be worth looking into.
Their small staff seem to have more credentials than all of WWASPS put together......
Craig Rogers earned a BA in Psychology and a minor in Chemical Dependency Studies from California State University, Sacramento. Additionally, Craig was the Program Director for Positive Impact of Bahia de Kino, Program Administrator for Koinonia Group Homes, California, Regional Director for Koinonia Foster Homes - Nevada, and Social Worker Supervisor for Rite of Passage of Nevada
Jesus Primitivo Rendon Studied in the University of Sonora,there he obtained his degree in clinical psychology in January of 2000, he taught several workshops during his career in small towns of sanora, Mexico, Helping kids from 3-15 years old overcome the disadvantages of not having all the resources for the best education and to improve the family ralationship by having therapeutic sessions with them.
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It HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ALA. It has everything to do with hiring Karen Burnett. Knowing her M.O. I wouldn't want her near my children. That's just my personal opinion based on what she has written on this board in the past. Ooops...it's gone! What does that say about what she wrote, she doesn't want anyone to read it anymore, for good reason.
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http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=9.. (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3864&forum=9..)."Of coarse, thats exactly what is going on. I feel it is a form of humanism - a worshipping of the self. I tend to think its natural that this philosophy has found a home in this program, b/c it is fundamental to the faith of those who built and own it.
After all, if one will someday be a god; then they must have within themselves redemptive power.
It can mix and be matched with any of the eastern religions very nicely - but it clashes head on with Judaic Christianity.
I to was surprised that more of the professing Christians didn't have trouble with this. I can only think that the majority are what I think of as cultural Christians. Their faith being a conveince; their church a social club; and nothing of Christ ever getting very deep.
These folks don't know enough about their faith to know when its being subverted; and often argue against the very tenints of their faith; either out of ignorance, or disbelief. These are the parents that profess to Christian faith; and yet buy into the Program's lie; In my opinion."
IS THIS A PERSON YOU WOULD WANT IN YOUR CHILD's LIFE?" Karen has a distinct way of writing and spelling. Can't prove it, but unless she has a clone, she wrote this, plus tons of other things as ANON, some deleted, some still out there.
She is God Almighty, judging others for how they choose to practice their religion, "my way or the highway" mentality at it's worst.
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Carey dear, give it a rest.
You seem strangely obsessed.
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THIS has disaster written all over it. :scared: :scared: :scared:
Ginger does Karen still post on this board Anonmously? Can you please let us know.
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On 2004-01-06 12:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What is the point of this thread?
If I were a Christian parent and looking for a place to help my child, Abundant Life may be worth looking into.
Their small staff seem to have more credentials than all of WWASPS put together......
Craig Rogers earned a BA in Psychology and a minor in Chemical Dependency Studies from California State University, Sacramento. Additionally, Craig was the Program Director for Positive Impact of Bahia de Kino, Program Administrator for Koinonia Group Homes, California, Regional Director for Koinonia Foster Homes - Nevada, and Social Worker Supervisor for Rite of Passage of Nevada
Jesus Primitivo Rendon Studied in the University of Sonora,there he obtained his degree in clinical psychology in January of 2000, he taught several workshops during his career in small towns of sanora, Mexico, Helping kids from 3-15 years old overcome the disadvantages of not having all the resources for the best education and to improve the family ralationship by having therapeutic sessions with them."
Nice Try. How many years of experince does he have? The reason WWASP is so successful is they have Several directors, etc with 20+ years of experince, not to mention therapist, staff, etc with close to 20 years.
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Most of the Specialty schools and programs in Southern Utah are want to be hacks of WWASPS, there are very few schools or programs that would even have staff or program directors with more than 5+ years of experince, some may have no experince, besides may experince as a boy scout leader or somthing, usually if a program director or staff member has more than 5 years experince, they have worked in another program such as CEDU, ASPEN, WWASP. Bite on that for a little bit. :rofl:
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Yes, Karen Burnett posts as "Anon" - case sensitive and not ANON or Anonymous. Check it out in the search. It was KarenZ and then Madhatter...what next??
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On 2004-01-06 12:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
Of coarse, thats exactly what is going on. I feel it is a form of humanism - a worshipping of the self. I tend to think its natural that this philosophy has found a home in this program, b/c it is fundamental to the faith of those who built and own it.
After all, if one will someday be a god; then they must have within themselves redemptive power.
It can mix and be matched with any of the eastern religions very nicely - but it clashes head on with Judaic Christianity.
I to was surprised that more of the professing Christians didn't have trouble with this. *******
She is God Almighty, judging others for how they choose to practice their religion, "my way or the highway" mentality at it's worst.
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http://www.jeremiahproject.com/prophecy/revival.html (http://www.jeremiahproject.com/prophecy/revival.html)
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http://www.lamblion.com/prophecy/signs/Signs-05.php (http://www.lamblion.com/prophecy/signs/Signs-05.php)
http://www.lamblion.com/prophecy/signs/Signs-06.php (http://www.lamblion.com/prophecy/signs/Signs-06.php)
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OMG! Here we go again. Thanks for the links, Karen, but no thanks.
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So you aren't interested.
Others might be.
Or not.
But just in case
http://www.lamblion.com/prophecy/signs/Signs-08.php (http://www.lamblion.com/prophecy/signs/Signs-08.php)
http://www.levitt.com/ (http://www.levitt.com/)
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***Usually if a program director or staff member has more than 5 years experince, they have worked in another program such as CEDU, ASPEN, WWASP. Bite on that for a little bit.***
It is something to think about... I mean what kind of "training" all those Directors and staff received. Is that really something to brag about? I mean, given the excessive number of deaths, lawsuits, and loads of bad press about Utah programs.
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Yep, Karen's employer is in Utah.
Deborah - you are really the only one that i know of that would appreciate all of Karen's religious slinks...she's trolling again.
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Karen - Didn't realize ALA was that hard up for staff. What "background" do you have other than being judgmental and wacked out? Is that what it takes to land a job in a christian based boarding school? I doubt it. I'm sure this place is a good place, so they may want to do a little research on you before committing to you ministering to their flock. Parents beware...this lady is not what she may appear to be.
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http://www.abundantlifeacademy.com/phpb ... um.php?f=3 (http://www.abundantlifeacademy.com/phpbb2/viewforum.php?f=3)
Looks like she talks to herself a lot - no requests for ministering since she came on board in November - smart parents. :rofl: YOOHOO!!
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Karen, Karen, Karen...your post on the ATA forum says you drop by this forum from time to time. You've probably erased your post, but I do remember you saying you were "obsessed" with this board. You post everyday.
If you can't even be honest with those that you are employed to minister to, what is that telling them?
The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.
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On 2004-01-06 17:59:00, Deborah wrote:
"***Usually if a program director or staff member has more than 5 years experince, they have worked in another program such as CEDU, ASPEN, WWASP. Bite on that for a little bit.***
It is something to think about... I mean what kind of "training" all those Directors and staff received. Is that really something to brag about? I mean, given the excessive number of deaths, lawsuits, and loads of bad press about Utah programs."
Very few problems are coming from WWASPS real parents, you know the ones that have custody and acutally placed the child, If you have more than 2,200 parents you are going to get complaints from time to time, especially in the type of industry they are in-
Here is a pop quiz,
How many actuall parents are on this forum who can
meet these requirements as a true wwasps critic-
- They are the paernts with custody and placed the child in a WWASPS program.
- Do not have some conflict of intrest to bad mouth WWASPS or are a competitor
Besides that everyone else has no real experince of WWASPS, either they are political activist, child rights, or competing or have some finacial intrest.
:idea: :idea: :idea:
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//They are the paernts with custody and placed the child in a WWASPS program.
Do not have some conflict of intrest to bad mouth WWASPS or are a competitor//
Call me Anon # 1
The above requirements describe me.
I think wwasp is diabolically evil; grossly neglectful and inherently abusive. They have manipulated you with far more skill than your kid ever did. But perhaps you aren't a parent yourself. Maybe your Bob or Jay or Ken or Ralph or Narvin or Nona or Jane or Joe. . .
Whats your motivation and agenda for trolling the net?
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//but I do remember you saying you were "obsessed" with this board. You post everyday. //
I recall this statement differently. As I recall, the obsession wasn't with any board; but rather with the issue of abusive programs.
You seem strangely obsessed with Karen.
Now, why is that?
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***Besides that everyone else has no real experince of WWASPS, either they are political activist, child rights, or competing or have some finacial intrest.***
So typical, a program parent attempting to sum up the demographics of this site to make a point, which had nothing to do with the post s/he was responding to. Can't respond, distract.
I don't think you are qualified to make those comments.
And in the unlikely event they are accurate-
SO WHAT?
My guess is that people here are not interested in your ramblings about WHO meets "your" requirements for commenting. This ain't no WWASP program here, it's a pubic message board. Your control techniques don't work out here in the real world.
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On 2004-01-07 14:55:00, Deborah wrote:
"
***Besides that everyone else has no real experince of WWASPS, either they are political activist, child rights, or competing or have some finacial intrest.***
So typical, a program parent attempting to sum up the demographics of this site to make a point, which had nothing to do with the post s/he was responding to. Can't respond, distract.
I don't think you are qualified to make those comments.
And in the unlikely event they are accurate-
SO WHAT?
My guess is that people here are not interested in your ramblings about WHO meets "your" requirements for commenting. This ain't no WWASP program here, it's a pubic message board. Your control techniques don't work out here in the real world.
"
Lets start with you Deborah, Did you place your child (Having Custody of your child) in a WWASPS facility or have even ever visited a WWASPS facility?
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On 2004-01-07 12:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Karen, Karen, Karen...your post on the ATA forum says you drop by this forum from time to time. You've probably erased your post, but I do remember you saying you were "obsessed" with this board. You post everyday.
If you can't even be honest with those that you are employed to minister to, what is that telling them?
The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. "
Perhaps if Karen would practice what she preaches, there would be no need to question her motives. Only Karen knows whether she is guilty of violating the covenents of christian-based doctrine. Certainly, if it turns out, she participated in the diabolitcal character assination of Ms. Bock, then she should not be surprised that others may question her motives and her commitment to upholding the values and beliefs of her faith.
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Character assassination?
Puulezz.
Carey did what she did and has admitted to it.
Lots of folks feel what she did was a damned awful thing to do.
Carey has made her excuses. The wwasp hoards have rushed to her defence.
They have their point of view and are entitled to it.
Others disagree, and are entitled to say so.
*If* her character has been assassinated, it is by the truth of her own actions. She is all for the Truth, she says over and over. Who's Truth, and how much Truth, seems to trouble her.
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On 2004-01-08 11:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Character assassination?
Puulezz.
Carey did what she did and has admitted to it.
Lots of folks feel what she did was a damned awful thing to do.
Carey has made her excuses. The wwasp hoards have rushed to her defence.
They have their point of view and are entitled to it.
Others disagree, and are entitled to say so.
*If* her character has been assassinated, it is by the truth of her own actions. She is all for the Truth, she says over and over. Who's Truth, and how much Truth, seems to trouble her.
"
Lots of folks think what Ms. Bock did was damned awful? Hah! Try six to maybe a dozen folks. Most of whom (if not all) are reformed ex-wwasp parents or "hoards" as you prefer to call them.
Personally, I think most people have figured out this is a war between PURE and WWASPS. Ms. Bock, the Trekkers and maybe still others are caught in the crossfire. What's your interest in any of this Anon? To prove PURE is right and Ms. Bock is wrong? Why? What do you or anybody else but the parties involved have to gain? The answer is nothing, unless YOU have a vested interest. So once again, Anon, what is your interest? Be specific. Your faith is not going to shield you from accountability!!!!
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On 2004-01-08 12:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2004-01-08 11:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Character assassination?
Puulezz.
Carey did what she did and has admitted to it.
Lots of folks feel what she did was a damned awful thing to do.
Carey has made her excuses. The wwasp hoards have rushed to her defence.
They have their point of view and are entitled to it.
Others disagree, and are entitled to say so.
*If* her character has been assassinated, it is by the truth of her own actions. She is all for the Truth, she says over and over. Who's Truth, and how much Truth, seems to trouble her.
"
Lots of folks think what Ms. Bock did was damned awful? Hah! Try six to maybe a dozen folks. Most of whom (if not all) are reformed ex-wwasp parents or "hoards" as you prefer to call them.
Personally, I think most people have figured out this is a war between PURE and WWASPS. Ms. Bock, the Trekkers and maybe still others are caught in the crossfire. What's your interest in any of this Anon? To prove PURE is right and Ms. Bock is wrong? Why? What do you or anybody else but the parties involved have to gain? The answer is nothing, unless YOU have a vested interest. So once again, Anon, what is your interest? Be specific. Your faith is not going to shield you from accountability!!!!"
Uh, Karen, what is a hoard? Did you mean the word that starts with wh and rhymes with bore? Maybe you should wash your mouth out with soap instead of standing on your soapbox preaching your version of the gospel-truth.
::hehehmm::
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On 2004-01-07 15:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2004-01-07 14:55:00, Deborah wrote:
"
***Besides that everyone else has no real experince of WWASPS, either they are political activist, child rights, or competing or have some finacial intrest.***
So typical, a program parent attempting to sum up the demographics of this site to make a point, which had nothing to do with the post s/he was responding to. Can't respond, distract.
I don't think you are qualified to make those comments.
And in the unlikely event they are accurate-
SO WHAT?
My guess is that people here are not interested in your ramblings about WHO meets "your" requirements for commenting. This ain't no WWASP program here, it's a pubic message board. Your control techniques don't work out here in the real world.
"
Lets start with you Deborah, Did you place your child (Having Custody of your child) in a WWASPS facility or have even ever visited a WWASPS facility? "
Can anyone else answer this question or link to where this has been discuessed before?
Lets start with you Deborah, Did you place your child (Having Custody of your child) in a WWASPS facility or have even ever visited a WWASPS facility?
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"Uh, Karen, what is a hoard? Did you mean the word that starts with wh and rhymes with bore? Maybe you should wash your mouth out with soap instead of standing on your soapbox preaching your version of the gospel-truth."
GOT DOVE?
:tup:
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Hmmm, looks like somebody got the message, here.
:nworthy:
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Abundant Life Academy: The fraud!
I have been there and I´m sorry for the staff with no experience. Do you know how many times the police have visited that school?... 5
There is no control, organization and honesty. How can Mr. Rogers (Director) talk about God while is threatening people who knows all the illegal procedures in his company? He asked money to some parents and not even paid the visa for the students. You can ask them (students) and they are scared. :scared:
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i have talked with Craig before (he is the director of ALA). He was very helpful and has answered many questions i has honestly and they was hard questions most programs shy away from. He says ALA does not take kids against their will. They have to want to come to ALA, and are free to leave at any time. And mail is not read just watched for drugs and so on. Phone contact is encouraged not limited. If that is true then they are a step in the right direction. Although they used to only have a place in Utah, now they added the Mexico facility. They say the same applies down there. I dont know this to be true as i never been there. I would love to go and observe thought for a bit. Also about the last annon post about the cops being there who knows. That can easily be found out as all police records are just a matter of publice record. So if they are lieing then the truth will be known. I am going to try to get police records and all call logs for 911 on ALA. And any police reports as well. Lets see if the annon is telling the truth! I have alawys had a interest in ALA as they claim to be humane. I just dont agree with the Mexico facility at all. Why Mexico, most programs run to mexico to escape US laws and regulations. If they are on the up and up a very bad move on ALA's part. As i would never recommend any place in Mexico for any reason no mather who run the place. Yes there is very bad need for a program the actully helps kids and is not abusive and respects they cival rights as ALA claims to be (i would love to see for myself). Not a smart move to Mexico thought.
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My name is Craig Rogers, and I am the Executive Director of Abundant Life Academy. First I want to applaud Fornit's forum, and thank them for their commitment to help good intentioned people to expose the fraudulent practices of some specialty school programs.
I am sure that the moderator, as well as the viewers of this forum, are aware that not all posts are legitimate. We all have to take each and every post, including mine, with a grain of salt realizing that the words written may not accurately reflect the facts or truth. In essence, we should all be aware that even cowards with a bone of contention can enter a forum and write anything they want regardless of the truth.
I am not going to dignify the original post from "anonymous" with a response. The first notion that we all should get regarding the originator of the original post is that he is, and remains, anonymous. This is the first of mainy issues that discredit his statements.
Moreover, I happen to know that this post comes from a former associate who was let go because he had committed some inappropriate acts that were not in alignment with our purposes and vision (I can tell by his broken english and improper grammer). It is unfortunate that he feels compelled to lie and slander, but there is nothing we can or will do to stop him. He discredits himself better then we can. I wish him the best, and pray that he will focus on providing for his family, and I hope that he will find peace in his life.
It is sad to see this man, who was once very powerful, deteriate under the stress that has been caused by his own lack of integrity and untruthfullness.
At Abundant Life Academy we do great things for our students, their family's, and the community in general. Because we do, we realize that we will always be attacked by those who are unstable and wounded. Unfortunately, people like this person will always be around and we cant take time away from the greater picture and address their every move.
We just have to trust that people like the originator of this post will come to their senses and learn to be truthful and have integrity. We pray for people like this because they need our mercy and forgiveness.
One final thing... we have nothing to hide, and are an open book for all who have a desire to investigate. And, I refuse to make comments about people and places I have never seen or experienced. May all people who visit this forum take the responsibilty to speak from personal experience and not pass along gossip or unsubstantiated slander. Jesus, as my defender, I trust.
God bless,
Craig Rogers
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*If* you let the kids leave your school at will (I have no problem if you expell them for leaving without permission); *if* you let the kids send and receive mail and just check the envelopes for illicit drugs; *if* you encourage and allow the kids to make and receive phone calls--perhaps with a published schedule to protect classroom hours from interruptions----if you do all those things, I have no problem with you.
Sunshine is the best disinfectant.
No organization is perfect, but with sunshine, the parents and kids can fairly evaluate what you have to offer against their other options.
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Hello Josua?
I am reluctant to respond to you for fear of ?saying? something that would cast a poor light on those you seek to harm. Still, as I am aware of who you are, and the circumstances surrounding your attack, it seems appropriate that I reply.
Personally, I have been humbled and amazed at the Christ Like attitude Craig has shown you, even in the face of your many unjust attacks. It put into sharp focus how different my response has too often been to a lady well known to folks on this site. It has given me pause and caused me to repent of my most unChristlike attitude. It is very difficult, but Iam trying to follow Craig?s example.
You are a lucky man to have had friends as trusting and loving as the Rogers family. It is simply amazing to me that you can continue to behave this way; without regard for the heartfelt pain you cause your friends, and the destruction to the efforts of the students.
You remain in our prayers -
Nate?s Mom
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that's right Karen and Craig cover your ass, blame it on a disgruntled employee....we have seen and heard this song and dance before.
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I am not going to dignify the original post from "anonymous" with a response. The first notion that we all should get regarding the originator of the original post is that he is, and remains, anonymous. This is the first of mainy issues that discredit his statements.
Craig, sure sounds like a response to me. I guess you just dignified the original post from "anonymous."
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On 2004-01-27 14:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"that's right Karen and Craig cover your ass, blame it on a disgruntled employee....we have seen and heard this song and dance before."
Ditto, this come-to-Jesus-meeting (for Karen Z) comes long after she was called to atone for her participation in the despictable, hateful I Hate Carey Club. Talk about unchristianlike. Hell, that whole crusade was nothing short of the Devil's work, himself.
:scared:
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Karen, was it really necessary to reveal the identity of the so-called "disgruntled" poster? No, it was not and if you think I'm wrong, well, maybe you ought to take a look back at the many many posts you personally erased written by yourself under the username Anon.
CAN WE SAY HYPOCRITE, HERE?!!!
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Okay, I have a personal prejudice here. Whenever I hear someone talking like a used god salesman, I read the fine print and keep my hand on my wallet.
Most of the religious folks I've known who have done the best at following the Golden Rule have been the ones who spent the least time talking about it.
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This is Devlin Graves i lost my password so i am posting annon.
I read this annon (more likely a troll). Read the quote below:
On 2004-01-27 15:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am not going to dignify the original post from "anonymous" with a response. The first notion that we all should get regarding the originator of the original post is that he is, and remains, anonymous. This is the first of mainy issues that discredit his statements.
Craig, sure sounds like a response to me. I guess you just dignified the original post from "anonymous."
"
Now i am not for programs or sending kids off. But lets face the facts, there will be porgrams and if there is any at all i want them to be human and respect kids and their rights. ALA claims to be that. Craig Rodgers say a they are open to investigation, lets just go that. Lets give them the benifit of the doubt till we get results on them. I disagree with the Mexico part of the program totally. But if what they claim to be is true then they are well needed. And ALA is a step in the right direction (just need to get rid of the Mexico Facility). Craig says they use the place in Mexico for Missionary Work. If they want to do Missionary Work to the needy and less off then go to the Kentuky Bootheal, or a place not so well off in the USA (where US child proction laws will apply). Also they are making a mistake by using Karen i think. Watch my words she will bring WWASP down on ALA (we all know WWASP is sue happy). As they seem to be recruting a lot of WWASP kids. The bottom line is lets investigate them and see what we find.
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On 2004-01-27 16:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Okay, I have a personal prejudice here. Whenever I hear someone talking like a used god salesman, I read the fine print and keep my hand on my wallet.
Most of the religious folks I've known who have done the best at following the Golden Rule have been the ones who spent the least time talking about it."
Yeah, that's pretty much been my experience, too. But this whole sordid affair has me wondering why any parent would send their kids thousands of miles from home just to get them in touch with God? Why not invite their children to explore their faith closer to home? Sounds more like forced indoctrination to me. A way to control their kids exposure to sex, drugs and rock 'n roll while at the same time getting them hooked on religion as an alternative lifestyle.
:smokin:
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Faith in humanity, not gods, ideologies, or programs.
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Question: Someone said that WWASP is sue happy...
Who, besides PURE (for defamation) is WWASP suing?
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Deborah, faith in humanity? How is that even possible in a society that does not object to trying kids as young as 13 years old as *adults* and sentencing them to life in prison?
:eek:
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Deb, I also think it is inhumane to drug 4 million kids with Ritalin but yet expel kids for getting caught with a couple of tylenol at their government-run school. Ok, maybe not inhumane but definitly bad policy. Nevertheless, I appreciate what you are trying to say. Perhaps what we really need is to give kids the right to decide for themselves whether they want to be indoctrinated with the values and beliefs of their parents religion and/or guru of choice. That would pretty much solve the problem, though it's probably too late for some of these kids.
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On 2004-01-28 07:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Question: Someone said that WWASP is sue happy...
Who, besides PURE (for defamation) is WWASP suing? "
No one!
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Humanity- quality of being humane- compassion, empathy, consideration for humans/animals- a person promoting human welfare and social reform.
The most "evil" person can perceive themselves as humane. I don't consider those who advocate the warehousing of teens to be humane in any sense of the word.
I loathe the new age cliche "we're all one". My thinking on this is that yeh, we're all individual cells in one large body. Some of the cells have mutated-forgotten their true nature- and are dead set on wiping out the entire organism....
kinda like the radical right christians who do not support environmental protection because they look forward to the distruction of earth which will preceed their rapture- fulfill their prophecy. sick!
When I speak of humane, humanity, etc I am refering to those who have not forgotten what genuine respect for others is. And I understand that it can not be applied generally.
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what about the police?? Where's the answer??? ::jawdrop::
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and what about teachers? No respect there, unless you are taking meds to be compliant.
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This is a e mail craig send me: and if any body want,s the original e mail just e mail me and i will fowerd the e mail
De: Craig Rogers
Enviado el: Lunes, 27 de Octubre de 2003 04:28:52 a.m.
Para: "apa031"
Asunto: Stop
| | | Bandeja de entrada
I understand you are trying to destroy my school,
stop or I see one of your son's death,
In Jesus name,
Craig
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Informar del correo electrónico no deseado
Informar y bloquear al remitente
De: Craig Rogers
Enviado el: Lunes, 27 de Octubre de 2003 04:28:52 a.m.
Para: "apa031"
Asunto: Stop
| | | Bandeja de entrada
I understand you are trying to destroy my school,
stop or I see one of your son's death,
In Jesus name,
Craig
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'Jack'
You wrote this. Your use of language is proof. I strongly suspect you have crossed a line here into the land of liability.
You need to return to the Rock, and get up out of the mud.
Nate's Mom
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To forgive, is divine. Don't be threatening lawsuits. Sheesh, maybe the guy needs to be heard, or maybe not. Either way, go tell it on the mountain and WORK IT OUT peacefully. For the children's sake, adults need to act like adults, and show them how conflicts are resolved ... by
LISTENING WITH A HEART.
:wave:
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To forgive, is divine.
I don't disagree with you.
Even if I did, what to do, if anything, is not up to me. But actually, I wasn't thinking in terms of civil action. This seem criminal to me.
Nate's Mom
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Gee Karen, I didn't see you worrying about the telephone threats made against Ms. Bock or throwing a fit when someone posted her deposition before it was even public knowledge, and even posting her SS# online. All of which could also be considered criminal.
Whatever is going on here, I don't disagree that somebody is raising some serious issues on this forum. But why?
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Why would you expect Karen to worry about Mz Bock's problems?
Mz Bock has plenty of defenders who watch over her. She doesn?t need or want Karen.
As for the phone calls, all you have there is Mz Bock's word, for what its worth.
As for the partial S.S.#, Mz Bock had the Boss' helping there; or so she says.
As for posting her deposition, if that is up anywhere, I'd love to see it.
Can you provide a link?
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The threatening phone call was made to Mz Bock's place of work, not to Mz Bock. At least that is what was posted on fornets. From everything I have read on this site, the threatening phone call was made and the suit then followed. By the way, she did not take the call, someone she works with did. I am sure that phone records can prove when and where the call came from.
As for the partial S.S.#, Mz Bock had the Boss' helping there; or so she says.
What boss did she say was helping her. Can you post the link to it, where she said that?
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Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.
It?s getting hard to be someone but it all works out,
it doesn?t matter much to me.
No one I think is in my tree, I mean it must be high or low.
That is you can't you know tune in but it's all right, that is I think it's not too bad.
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The Riddler is in the house...and he must be getting high!
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Here is a link to the page with the thread questioning who posted the details about Ms. Bock's depo and how they came to know these details, and also the post about a Mrs. Anders calling Ms. Bock's place of employment. As for the SS #, as I recall, somebody apparently posted at least part of Ms. Bock's SS number. Why anyone would do these things, only the person responsible knows the answer to that question.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?forum=9&start=75 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?forum=9&start=75)
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I recall this well enough. Talking about what was said isn't the same as posting the actual document. I thought from the earlier post, someone had posted the actual document.
I seem to recall Mz Bock promising to do so when it became available to her. I'm sure it will be fascinating.
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I think the point Ms. Bock was trying to make was well-taken, especially given the circumstances. And posting someone's social security number (all of it or some of it) on a public forum? That just does not sit well with me at all and really should not sit well with anyone else, either. It is wrong!
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On 2004-01-29 17:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think the point Ms. Bock was trying to make was well-taken, especially given the circumstances. And posting someone's social security number (all of it or some of it) on a public forum? That just does not sit well with me at all and really should not sit well with anyone else, either. It is wrong!
"
But is it a crime? Any legal eagles out there who know?
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On 2004-01-30 14:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2004-01-29 17:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think the point Ms. Bock was trying to make was well-taken, especially given the circumstances. And posting someone's social security number (all of it or some of it) on a public forum? That just does not sit well with me at all and really should not sit well with anyone else, either. It is wrong!
"
But is it a crime? Any legal eagles out there who know?"
I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice BUT...
Posting someone's SS number on the internet is not a crime that I know of but may well be a tort, based on the civil cases against pro-life sites that put abortion doctors personal information on line.
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Question: Someone said that WWASP is sue happy...
Who, besides PURE (for defamation) is WWASP suing?
Well, Thomas Houlahan for a start. Just for asking a few questions, apparently.
http://http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Feb/02042004/utah/135541.asp
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Any links to articles this guy (Houlahan) has written?
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The suit, filed in the U.S. District Court in Salt Lake City, alleges Houlahan called Maryland-native Laura Boatright in July 2003 telling her he had investigated WWASPS for the past eight months and knew about supposed abuse involving her son at The Academy at Ivy Ridge, in Ogdensburg, N.Y.
It doesn't sound like he was just asking questions. Does anyone know if he had been getting his information on the abuse at Ivy Ridge from Sue, Martha, Amberly or any of the Trekkers?
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Any links to articles this guy (Houlahan) has written?
There is this one:
http://http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040109-104725-4985r.htm
Most of his other stuff seems to be on military matters unless that is another Thomas Houlahan.
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Maybe ISAC has the article in question in their news article files?
http://isaccorp.com/wwasp/wwasp.html (http://isaccorp.com/wwasp/wwasp.html)
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I'm not a lawyer either, but posting someone's SSN IS A CRIME. Violation of privacy. Im going out on a limb here, but I think it's also DUMB thing to do. Under any circumstances. If we're taught from the time we get our first social security card that we should keep the # private, not carry it in a purse or wallet to avoid identity theftm HOW COULD IT BE A GOOD IDEA?
:roll:
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On 2004-02-04 08:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Any links to articles this guy (Houlahan) has written? "
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& ... han%22+upi (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&edition=us&q=%22Thomas+Houlahan%22+upi)An individual who should survive his physical death is beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls.
--Albert Einstein
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http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Feb/02042004/utah/135541.asp (http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Feb/02042004/utah/135541.asp)
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craig was " Social Worker Supervisor for Rite of Passage of Nevada"
isn't that where paul choy died?
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Quote: Nice Try. How many years of experince does he have? The reason WWASP is so successful is they have Several directors, etc with 20+ years of experince, not to mention therapist, staff, etc with close to 20 years.
the director when my son was there came and left within 6 weeks. there was not a single therapist on staff there. Not a one. You anon, are what we call, talking out your ass!
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quote Can anyone else answer this question or link to where this has been discuessed before?
Lets start with you Deborah, Did you place your child (Having Custody of your child) in a WWASPS facility or have even ever visited a WWASPS facility?
I have custody of my child and i placed him in wasp. i visited the facility. i was there twice. i spoke with dozens, probably more like hundreds, of parents that have or have had thieir child there. I have hear good reports from parents, not a one, from a real person, not a computer post, from a child that "graduated" or otherwise.
i have no monetary interest whatsoever. i amnot involved in any lawsuit and i am certainly not a recuriter. i work for a lawfirm.
now, what is it you want to ask me?
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Karen, congratulations on your son's graduation and your position. i am sincerely glad to hear that Nate is doing well.
Gina
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what the hell is a trekker?
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That'sthe same Thomas Houlahan
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Are you saying Thomas Houlahan is/was a Trekker? I thought this guy (who has been sued by WWASPS)is/was a UPI reporter.
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On 2004-04-04 09:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Are you saying Thomas Houlahan is/was a Trekker? I thought this guy (who has been sued by WWASPS)is/was a UPI reporter. "
Never mind, I scrolled back a few posts. Apparently somebody asked if this guy was the same guy who wrote some story and Anon responded that he was.
As for the question about what is a "trekker", my understanding is that is the nickname for people who belonged to some private listserve.
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I understand that the credentials for Mr. CraigRogers look good however as an iverstigative reporter twho has just started looking into his facility I have found that speaking directly with people he has worked with in the past is the best source of information. If you check into he claims of previus employment you will find that to be correct however you will also find that they emphatically would not employ him again and will not be linked inany way to his facility. I believe that speaks volumes in itself. Though they did not reveal any information that they legally should not reveal they did guide me to other sources of information that should prove to be more than interesting. Though I am an unbiased individual in this scenario I am to seriously question the validity of this facility and any of its practices. And if any onbe knows why they move the kids t the Mexico facility approx. once a month could you please enlighten me. It almost appears as if they have something to hide.
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Creg Rogers is FULL OF FUCKING SHIT!!!! That mother fukker PRETENDS to be a xtian, but he's REALLY the SPAWN OF SATAN!!! Stay away from that man!! He is EVIL!!!
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Anon reporter.
you say:
I believe that speaks volumes in itself.
Maybe. You omitted info needed to determin just what this might mean. WHY seems important.
I can think of reasons that would reflect much more poorly on the past employer than on the unwanted rehire.
you say:
I am an unbiased individual in this scenario I am to seriously question the validity of this facility and any of its practices.
Unbiasesed? Questionable; but maybe.
As for the validity of the facility; what do you mean? Are you questioning what kind of program this is; or that they do what they claim; or the overall benifits to the students and families, or what?
And I know I have little room to gripe; but if you want to be taken seriously as an investigative reporter, you better ditch the bag.
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Turd and Butcher/Hacker
You've made your opinions clear. No need to repeat yourself.
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Thanks for the reply, can't ditch the bag yet and hey this was an assignment given to me so I realy do not have a vested interest here on the good or the bad but I would like to see both sides. So far all I am seeing are personal opinions on this site and others which doesn't stack up to much. What has this guy Craig Rogers done that has brought about so much conversation and so much controversy on this site? I have not found any negative facts so far about the Abundant Life Academy or the Program they have. However there seems an air of secrecy that just doesn't quite add up. Apparently people are very emotionally invested about this man and his program. Why is that???? Have children died at this facility? have children disappeared?? what is the problem????
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By the way maybe you should ditch your bag!!!
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No can do. But if you really are doing an investigation I expect we'll talk.
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Where do you see a lot of attacks on Rogers? I've seen him complain a lot about people attacking him. I've seen a lot of questions asked of him. And I've seen a good bit of poking fun. But I haven't seen any substantial allegations against him.
Could you give us a little more detail about what you're asking for?I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard was not what I meant.
---Richard Nixon
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::spam::
wouldn't be surprised if this 'journalist' is Craig himself, fishing for some juicy evidence for a lawsuit.
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WOW - have you looked at this web site? there seems to be a ton of activity focused on Craig Rogers and the ALA and I don't see alot of happiness here except from possibly his employee Karen. But you know what they say_--- Any body can post anything true or not. If the reporter is Craig that would be interesting.
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Yeah, I browsed back a bit cause I couldn't remember exactly how this brawl started. Apparently, aside from Karen being a regular poster here for a long time, this brawl started back in January when when Josue R. Aparicio Gomez posted his salvo on the ALA/ACADEMIA VIDA ABUNDANTE DEL LAGO CHAPALA dispute. http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=4280&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=4280&forum=9)
Then Craig posted his response. Now all this.
Drug War tells us everyone's body is common property
to be managed by the central government for our own
good, even if it kills us. This is Communism!
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
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craig was " Social Worker Supervisor for Rite of Passage of Nevada"
isn't that where paul choy died?
This is a very good question does anyone have the answer?
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Choy died Feb 1992
August 1999- POSITIVE IMPACT Bahia de Kino, Mexico- Residential Living Coordinator
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... sit01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1999/8/visit01.html)
October 1999- POSITIVE IMPACT- Program Director
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... sit02.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1999/10/visit02.html)
Out of time. This is all I could find.
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Looks like Paul Choy was abused without mercy at Visions Quest. See these links for more info.
http://www.nospank.net/n-b99.htm (http://www.nospank.net/n-b99.htm)
http://www.nospank.net/n-b98.htm (http://www.nospank.net/n-b98.htm)
:scared:
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Sorry, meant to say Rite of Passage. What's sad is it doesn't look like anybody was really held accountable. How can that be? The boy was 5'4" for Christ's sake, and slightly built.
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If anyone is thinking about possibly sending your child to HLA, please listen to what I am about to say...Okay. I'm not sure really where to begin. I'll start with why I went there... I was court ordered there for assualt and battery on my parents during a cocaine overdose, unruly child; dropping out of school & living on the streets, and a few drug paraphenalia charges due to proof of parents. I was 16 at the time of my conviction, to then turn 17 just a few days on entering HLA... That was in 1997. I am currently 23 and do have control over my life, which is an aspect very different from my dark days. I consider my self to be well educated and have been very succesful with relationships, including my parents... There are some hangups though. I have suffered from Social Anxiety disorder upon leaving HLA. No matter who I've talked to, I just can't seem to get past it. I also suffer from pretty disturbing nightmares & bouts of spontaneous depression. Luckily, I have people in my life that love me for who I truly am... Ever since I have turned my life around, I've done my best to help those when it seems applicable & even when it doesn't. I have this quote I like to say, " I am so full of Love because I know so much of Hate."... About HLA... Although there is the one point I can't ignore, if I hadn't been admitted to HLA I probably would be dead, there is still the fact that after walking in there to rid myself of problems, I exited with a whole new set of problems... So, when it comes down to it, I don't really know what to say. HLA is Evil. There's no doubt about that. They're exploiting young minds for the sake of profit and for even stranger deeper personal control issues. Brainwashing is also definately involved. There were things they had done to me that I hadn't realized till much later, when I realized that a decision I had made wasn't what I wanted to do, but what HLA had programmed me to do, and not in a good way. For parents who have kids there & it seems to be working, trust me, it will, but only for a short while. After one starts adjusting to their natural environments in society again, it will all be realized and,sadly, there will undoubtedly be problems again. Why? Because they are not really themselves. They all were broken down in the same ways, and they were all built again with the same techniques used on everybody. Nobody is the same. That's why programs range anywhere from 3 wks. to a few years. I was there for 10 of the 18 mo. I still feel to this day that I was ready to be released at around 4 mo. ANything thereafter was very very unhealthy for me. Nobody is the same. EVeryone thinks and percieves differently. If you don't believe me, go to http://www.personalitypathways.com (http://www.personalitypathways.com) and take the Myers-Briggs online type indicator test. Hopefully these tests will be given more regularly in schools while children grow up, so as to avoid things like this and so everyone may respect each others differences more wisely... I told myself I wouldn't talk specifically about any certain incident at HLA, but I do want to give you one example that'll hopefully terrify you. When HLA found out that I was trying to get my court order dropped & that I'd secretly written the judge, they tried in many ways to get me, or should I say make me, stay. One specific incident included me, 3 of what I like to call psycho-manipulators, one of these being MIKE WITHERSPOON, and two other kids who'd been placed as dorm heads and had been at HLA longer. Almost every kid there would sell you out very fast for special privledges, and these two guys just happenned to be that way. Long story short, they all took everything I said & did & turned it around to make me think I was suicidal. They knew that if I tried to kill myself w/ them interveneing or had a written statement, that I wouldn't be able to leave. I had been there for around 5 mo. at this time. Well sure enough, I tried to slice my wrists open with a pair of scissors. Let me just say this, I knew something was up when they were talking to me like they were in that little room, but I have always considered myself a trusting individual & so I was not aware to what these people who're supposed to be helping me were trying to do... Now, that is pure evil. There is not one person who wouldn't have done what I did. That is there job, they are psycho-manipulators who have a backup & excuse for everything. When I told them what I knew they had done & busted out into tears, there was no feeling behind those eyes...none... The only reason I changed at HLA when it comes to the problems I had previous to this place, was because I realized that I was a good person inside & only I could change my life. It truly had very little to do with the program, well, except for the motivation to get out of there... SInce HLA, I have been successful in everything I do, but everywhere I go, I constantly fight horrible feelings. I always fight & I always win, but they are always there & I wonder if I'll ever be able to push through them... If you care at all about your child, do not send them there. In fact, I am so adament to having these facilities that you only see in movies shut down, that I'm willing to offer giving my best advice to whatever the situation may be in which you are consulting this site for. My E-mail is Modestmouse166@hotmail.com... Trust me, before sending your child to a place as such, please consult me to discuss further options. I have a friend who is now a child psychologist and a former HLA student. He is putting out a book about his life and the crime, hate, and illusion of love that went into HLA. Please, if you Love your child, don't send them to a place like this. ALthough things may seem good for awhile, it is inevitable that they won't stay that way. For your child is no longer him or herself...
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thank you for that heart felt and powerful message.