Post by: Ville_Valo on December 23, 2003, 03:00:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 23, 2003, 03:35:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on December 23, 2003, 05:00:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-12-23 12:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thats what kens site is for. this site is for bashing elan and people."
Thanks for the input, Ken.
Ya'll (Gandalf TG, Anon, Nazi et al excluded) would just be shocked to know just where the most obnoxious content is coming from.
The graduate with a Science degree asks, "Why does it work?"
The graduate with an Engineering degree asks, "How does it work?"
The graduate with an Accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost?"
The graduate with a Liberal Arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that?"
--Anonymous
Post by: Antigen on December 23, 2003, 07:04:00 PM
I banned Nazi's IP because 70 posts in a day constitutes flooding. At that point, it's not a matter of ignoring the bullshit, it's a matter of wasting valuable time just trying to dig through it to find what you're looking for.
We'll see what happens with the rest.
Time is running out. The Indians' botanical knowledge is disappearing even faster than the plants themselves.
--Richard Schultes, Harvard University educator, authority on medicinal plants
Post by: Nazi on December 23, 2003, 07:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-12-23 16:04:00, Antigen wrote:
"Of course, I can't be 100% sure. But it looks to me asif a good many of these anons and aliases could be either Ken or ppl working with him.
I banned Nazi's IP because 70 posts in a day constitutes flooding. At that point, it's not a matter of ignoring the bullshit, it's a matter of wasting valuable time just trying to dig through it to find what you're looking for.
We'll see what happens with the rest.Time is running out. The Indians' botanical knowledge is disappearing even faster than the plants themselves.
--Richard Schultes, Harvard University educator, authority on medicinal plants
"
REALLY???????????? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?
Post by: Anonymous on December 23, 2003, 09:05:00 PM
Post by: Bellis on December 23, 2003, 09:07:00 PM
Post by: Ville_Valo on December 23, 2003, 09:22:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on December 23, 2003, 09:31:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-12-23 18:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Are you aware that Ken has posted here only once? He doesn't come here anymore. "
Of course I can't be sure, but I have good reason to believe that Ken is Expediter-Trainee aka Anonymouse #42
http://fornits.com/wwf/bb_profile.php?m ... w&user=781 (http://fornits.com/wwf/bb_profile.php?mode=view&user=781)
Some people say they have good reason to hate him. I just think it's funny as hell that he claims not to read or post to these forums when we all know better.
Then he goes around allegedly spreading rumors that people ought to keep real quiet about stuff or some other bad guy might hurt them, sue them, set them up somehow, whatever.
He's a fear monger. I think he loved Elan and loves it to this day and just gets his rocks off in a big way off the mindfuck. Your milage may vary. But that's the impression I get from what I've seen of him over the last couple of years.
BTW, how's Andy and his mom doing? Did anyone stay in touch with her after her posts dissapeared from the ElanAlumni website? I hope they're doing alright.
Hold on, my friends, to the Constitution and to the Republic
for which it stands. Miracles do not cluster, and what has
happened once in 6000 years, may not happen again. Hold on to
the Constitution, for if the American Constitution should fail,
there will be anarchy throughout the world.
Daniel Webster
Post by: Bellis on December 23, 2003, 09:51:00 PM
Quote
Are you aware that Ken has posted here only once? He doesn't come here anymore
I only meant that he's been here since he supposedly left. As his personal hit counter was put up AFTER he made the announcment.. and as you can see i's at 1126 :smile:
I wasnt sure if you knew who "Anonymous user #42" was, i was mearly pointing out the hit counter.
Post by: Ville_Valo on December 23, 2003, 10:01:00 PM
Post by: Froderik on December 23, 2003, 10:19:00 PM
Post by: Ville Valo on December 24, 2003, 01:01:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on December 24, 2003, 02:05:00 PM
He's a fear monger. I think he loved Elan and loves it to this day and just gets his rocks off in a big way off the mindfuck. Your milage may vary. But that's the impression I get from what I've seen of him over the last couple of years.
BTW, how's Andy and his mom doing? Did anyone stay in touch with her after her posts dissapeared from the ElanAlumni website? I hope they're doing alright.
If All it takes is an infinite number of monkeys with type writers, then how come there's no Shakespeare coming out of AOL?
-- Anonymous
Post by: Anonymous on December 24, 2003, 02:44:00 PM
I knew ken at elan before he was pulled back in from being a graduate (what he told me as to why he was pulled in blu my mind ) ,for a peroid of time that indeed was longer than 2 weeks .
I had a most unpleasant experience with him on a boat .
I would be willing to talk about these incidents with law enforcement and a judge,because i firmly believe that zaretski deserves prison time for his crimes . I don't believe that this is the place to explictly lay out what went down.
I do believe a court of law is where this should be said and I am patiently waiting .
As for my opinion of the old boy kenny ,I am glad that he has no male children ,due to my belief that he is a true pathological ,preverted ,sociopath freak.
what I also know is that ken does not tell the truth about elan and runs the online version of elan at his site (afterall we were never allowed to talk bad about the program nor punch holes in it either ) for if we did we would surely pay a painful price as I am sure you remember if you were in elan .
After the most unpleasant experience on the boat,zaretsky became a assistant director of the bigger house in waterford . it turned my stomach .
I have posted about these incidents (not explictly ) on the elan survivours site w-a-y b-a-c-k in the year 2001. Therefore this is old hat for ken . (And I am much more stable than I was then )
As for elan and it's henchmen It is my opinion that gottlieb ,mccann,kruglik,and zaretski should spend the rest of their natural lives in prison (for brutally abusing adults as well as children,by getting the residents to do their dirty work for them ) And of course elan should have its assets frozen and distributed to former residents .
I am also of the opinion that ricci took the easy way out .
Merry christmas to you all.
Post by: Matt C. Hoffman on December 24, 2003, 02:49:00 PM
Dang computers
Oh well Happy Holidays everyone
Post by: hidingout on December 24, 2003, 03:32:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 24, 2003, 03:51:00 PM
Art,Matt,Diane,Mike all I have spoken to and said excetly this.
I too was at Elan with Ken now I have also told him I view their treatment as abuse and I will aways see it that way and if theres a way to get a few bucks out of it HELL YEAH Iam there.
But as far as Ken is concerend I spent alot of time with him he was my director along with Peter and never once did he try or do anything wrong to me( now i realize someones gonna come up with something stupid whatever go ahead)I was 14 years old from a modest home in chicago I was pretty much quiet at elan and got through it that way
I too can tell the same stories as others have here but enough is enough I never once thought of all the hurt and meaness (and my own as well) that would come of all of this. So to those of you who want to call me names act like children go ahead these are my views my feelings and if they are only valid to me thats just fine... MARY
Post by: Anonymous on December 24, 2003, 04:52:00 PM
Why would anyone attack you over what you said ?
Everyone's experience at elan was as different as how each snowflake is different .
I am very happy that you did not suffer at the hands of zaretski and mccann,and glad that you felt that you basically slid through by being quiet . Good for you .(many people suffed at the hands of elan and its henchmen )
There were folks that were seriously hurt by those men and I am glad that you were not one of them .
I believe you came in a few months after I did .(there is a lot you did not see .)
It is my opinion that there are many people that no longer dance on this planet for just having come in contact with elan and its henchmen (directors );as well as people that now roam the earth as emotional cripples from their contact with elan and its henchmen ;as well as people who went to prison after or during their elan experience . I am truly glad Mary that you are not one of these people .
Mary I do want you to know that I have not posted anything that I don't believe to be true and I patiently wait to speak to investigators ,or my chance to go infront of a judge and tell the truth .
Mary I heard through the grapevine that you were also looking for Scott Blair . When you find him please let him know that I would like to speak with him too.
Well Mary I hope you have a wonderful holiday experience .
Matt
Post by: Antigen on December 24, 2003, 09:22:00 PM
I got through it the same way you did till things got so nutz I couldn't stay quiet. And, of course, I couldn't speak up without putting at least some miles between me and them.
Once I was free of it, I thought that was the end of it. But, since then, I've found out that these places are still running, turning families against each other. They're still hurting people.
And it's not just the small number of families that go through Elan. There are hundreds of TBS schools around the country working essentially the same quack therapy on thousands of kids and their parents. Elan is just one of them.
There's a slight diversion from the Elan method. They don't just have a parents web forum. They have 3 day seminars for the parents. And these parents fork over wheelbarrows of cash and will vote and lobby for or against just about anything they're told to.
This industry, judicial prisons and the war industry are just about the only growth industries in this country. That's not the way I want to leave the world to grandchildren. I care a lot more about them than I ever will about anyone who might be hurt by exposing this industry for what it is.
Preacher man don't tell me heaven is under the earth; you don't know what life is worth;.......If you know what life is worth, you will look for your's on earth.
--Bob Marley
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
[ This Message was edited by: Antigen on 2003-12-24 18:23 ]
Post by: Anonymous on December 24, 2003, 09:54:00 PM
My post was about my truth! What I know nothing more then that. Anyone whos knows me knows I am an honest person.
So I dont have some nasty story to tell about Ken dosnt mean I'am not calling it straight up dose it?
I do feel bad for people who are having a hard time with this and god knows I understand, for me it was about the money. I know how cold that may sound but its the truth, somehow 2 years later its really not that important.........
Mary
Post by: Antigen on December 24, 2003, 10:32:00 PM
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense
--Buddha
Post by: Anonymous on December 25, 2003, 08:20:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on December 26, 2003, 03:23:00 PM
I get frustrated when ppl just don't see the bigger picture. I deeply respect ppl's personal choices wrt how to respond. But it frightens me when ppl close their minds to the fact that this is a much bigger and more important issue than just the personal stories of people involved. It's simply not. This is a growth industry and we know the nature of it. It's not just the 5k or so rich kids in private placement, either, they're working the same program in juvenile justice and prison industries, all in the name of "therapy".
Now, knowing that, if you think the best way to spend all your time and energy is to invest in your own kids coming up with a word view that will cause them to reject the philosophy out of hand, great! Maybe you're more right than I am. Maybe, when we're old and if we're still friends and can compare notes, we'll find that I fucked up, neglected my kids too much to go out and slay the dragons that they haven't even seen. But maybe not. We can agree to disagree on the best way to deal with the issue here and now with absolutely no animosity, nothing but the deepest respect on my part.
But if you're putting down this issue because you believe that it can no longer effect you and your family, you're mistaken.
Education is that which remains, if one has forgotten everything he learned in school.
--Albert Einstein, Out of My Later Years, 1950
Post by: Antigen on December 26, 2003, 05:08:00 PM
I could cite all kinds of material to support my argument. And I often do. But most of the evidence is stuff we all know already. We just don't necessarily connect the dots.
Here's the problem as I see it, with heavy emphasis on the personalities and organizations I've been most familiar with.
First, Elan is not unique. Ok, every place and time and personal experience is unique in ways. But that's not what I'm talking about. Elan is just one of hundreds of therapeutic boarding schools using the confrontation therapeutic community treatment model.
Essentially, I see these facilities as a very agressive implimentation of the standard trend, over the past 150 years, to institutionalize the tasks once left to the private domain of families and communities. The kids who wind up in these intense facilities, whether private or public, overtly religious or not, w or w/o judicial coercion, are the ones who have resisted whatever the broader system has in mind for them. They may have been labeled ADD, ADHD, ODD or whatever and they stubornly refuse to accept the judgement that they are flawed and that whatever the adults want them to do or want to do to them, that they should comply.
Look at what we, as a society, are asking them to accept. Goose Creek is emblematic of the problem. ( current news on Goose Creek http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&editi ... oose+creek (http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=us&q=goose+creek) )
Between zero tolerance, rampant piss testing, the media frenzy over juvenile violence and debauchery (none of which is supported by crime stats), kids today have to walk a far narrower path in order to keep their "pretty good kid" standing. That, I believe, is the primary reason why the troubled parent and forced treatment industries are growing so fast. It's not that kids are getting more insane. It's that we're labeling more of them as 'in need of service' or 'underserved' or 'possible gang affiliate' or... or... the list goes on.
Then there are specific efforts on the part of organizations (the ones who's names I know) like Drug Free America Foundation and Partnership for a Drug Free America (two sides of the same coin, those), Drug and Alcohol Testing Industries Association, Global Institute on Drug Abuse, Drug Policy Network of the Americas which I know to be closely tied with the Seed/Straight line of the troubled parent industry and who are extremely influential in matters of domestic and foreign policy. I know their philosophy, I can see manifestations of it all over the place and I want people to understand just how dangerous these people are.
It's very quickly getting to the point where any deviation from authorized views and activities is equated with potential terrorist involvement. Check out the RAVE Act that was tacked on as a rider to the Amber Act http://www.mapinc.org/raves.htm (http://www.mapinc.org/raves.htm)
It is now illegal, under felony penalties, for a concert promoter or venue owner to organize or host a concert where anyone in the audience might be expected to have some illegal drugs on them.
I know, it's a long walk from there to Elan. But it is related if you look at Elan, not as a singular, isolated cult, but as a part of the troubled parent industry that it is.
Exposing these groups always causes some pain and trouble for the people involved. But remaining silent about them, in my opinion, causes more pain and more trouble for more people.
Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful.
--Friedrich Nietzsche
Post by: Anonymous on December 26, 2003, 09:38:00 PM
Post by: E7haterJe on December 27, 2003, 12:54:00 AM
Post by: SyN on December 27, 2003, 06:53:00 PM
SyN
Post by: E7haterJe on December 27, 2003, 11:15:00 PM
Jenn :wstupid:
Post by: SyN on December 27, 2003, 11:57:00 PM
heres a link but i dont know how to make it clikable perhaps some one can enlighten me..
SyN
http://groups.msn.com/TIMETOCLOSETHEDOO ... board.msnw (http://groups.msn.com/TIMETOCLOSETHEDOORSOFELAN/messageboard.msnw)
Post by: SyN on December 27, 2003, 11:59:00 PM
SyN
Post by: Antigen on December 28, 2003, 01:26:00 AM
:silly:
When an innocent Californian millionaire gets killed by a drug squad
trying to seize his house with a bogus search warrant, people better ask themselves if they really want to turn their cops into money-makers.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder
Post by: E7haterJe on December 28, 2003, 01:33:00 AM
Justkiddin;
Post by: Antigen on December 28, 2003, 01:39:00 AM
"o+2w3 b 4??D?qX}??Ñæ¢0 78?"
Or the libertarian unschooler?
return undef if /coercion/sgi;
Speculations on the Origin of Human Intelligence: "In defense of the Pygmies, perhaps I should note that a friend of mine who has spent time with them says that for such activities as the patient stalking and hunting of mammals and fish they prepare themselves through marijuana intoxication, which helps to make the long waits, boring to anyone further evolved than a Komodo dragon, at least moderately tolerable. Ganja is, he says, their only cultivated crop. It would be wryly interesting if in human history the cultivation of marijuana led generally to the invention of agriculture, and thereby to civilization.
Carl Sagan - The Dragons of Eden - 1977
Post by: E7haterJe on December 30, 2003, 01:43:00 AM
Post by: Antigen on December 30, 2003, 03:51:00 PM
I disagree with you, Art, about blaming Ricci's behavior on the "disease" of addiction. I know we could lock horns on this, and that's not my intention. I don't consider you an evil or unredemable man for any fool thing you may have said or done before you quit drinking. Clearly, you took control of your own volition, w/ or w/o the support and encouragement of others, and changed your ways. You're as responsible for that as for any past mistake and, quite frankly, a better and stronger man than most by virtue of that.
But Joe Ricci did what he did and went to his grave denying all responsibility. In my view, he was an evil man who left an evil legacy. If Sharon fully recovers her senses, I would think she'd do something meaningful with her inheritance to denounce and counteract some of the harm done to people in the course of amassing all that wealth.
I do not believe in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance.
--Thomas Carlyle
Post by: Pete on December 30, 2003, 04:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-12-30 12:51:00, Antigen wrote:
If Sharon fully recovers her senses, I would think she'd do something meaningful with her inheritance to denounce and counteract some of the harm done to people in the course of amassing all that wealth.
Thomas Carlyle
The day that happens is the day pigs fly out of my ass. You obviously don't know Elan's administration very well. They NEVER have apologized for the negative aspects of the program.
By the way, Ken is not a bad guy. You're forgetting that he was one of the first people ever to criticize Elan publicly. He's actually really nice once you get to know him. Don't agree with him on everything -- but that's another story.
Post by: SyN on December 30, 2003, 05:00:00 PM
SyN
Post by: Anonymous on December 30, 2003, 05:38:00 PM
Mary ::nod::
Post by: Antigen on December 30, 2003, 07:16:00 PM
The thing that bugs me about Ken is that he tries to undermine people's confidence whenever they want to talk about real events that happen at Elan or whenever anyone tries to compare Concept to the philosophy of any other program. He seems to want, even need, for ya'll to remain convinced that you're all alone, no one can understand and that it's not worth talking about anyway; water under the bridge.
That pisses me off, frankly. I don't know what motivates the guy. I just think it's mean spirited to fuck with people like that.
Art Barker is a nice guy too. Incredibly funny, smart and charming and fully convinced that what he's done has been to help kids break free from the bondage of drugs. Being a nice guy doesn't excuse hurtful behavior.
BTW, anyone heard from Andy or his mom lately?
To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
Post by: Anonymous on December 30, 2003, 11:52:00 PM
What power this man must have that everyone finds him such a influence on what your doing.
If you dont like him dont talk to him Iam sure his world will not end. Like all of us he has a life a family and I really cant see all of this coming frist.
I for one judge ppl on my own not by what others say.
If he had such powers one could only imagin. I guess my point is everyone treat each other civil if he comes here looking for trouble then so be it but if not I really dont see the point in going on and on about it...
Ginger I have told you many time I admire the fact that you want to help kids thats a good thing.. So keep doing that. I really do hope that everyone someday somehow can come to terms with everything that had happened at elan, in the same right we cant belittle the ppl who have! Remember we all went through it. Mary
Post by: Antigen on December 30, 2003, 11:59:00 PM
Secondly, I'm not going on about it. People keep asking my opinion on Ken, I keep giving essentially the same answer. If nobody askes, I'm not even thinking about the guy. Haven't even looked at his site a dozen times in the last couple of years.
You might ask Ken what his fascination is w/ Fornits. I've heard that he's always going on about how fucking crazy we all are over here. Now that I've banned Nazi, the guy posts once acknowledging that he's the same guy and another time talking a lot of bravado about how Ken's going to fuck w/ me; this interspersed w/ death and snitch threats.
I know I'm just guessing, as no one can know the mind of another, but I honestly believe Nazi is a good budy of Ken's. One thing I know for sure from going over the database in the raw? Jordo's not imagining things when he says ppl are actively monkey-wrenching his film project. That is some of these people's stated objective.
When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, "Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?"
-- Quentin Crisp
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
[ This Message was edited by: Antigen on 2003-12-30 21:05 ]
Post by: Anonymous on December 31, 2003, 01:01:00 AM
Post by: E7haterJe on December 31, 2003, 01:22:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 31, 2003, 01:36:00 AM
Post by: SyN on December 31, 2003, 08:24:00 AM
SyN
Post by: E7haterJe on January 01, 2004, 06:15:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 01, 2004, 08:01:00 PM
Ken's the one standing in the middle.
for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.
--Alexander Hamilton
Post by: E7haterJe on January 01, 2004, 09:01:00 PM
Post by: SyN on January 01, 2004, 10:03:00 PM
SyN
Post by: Anonymous on January 01, 2004, 10:13:00 PM