Post by: Anonymous on December 21, 2003, 11:32:00 PM
The Associated Press
Saturday, December 20, 2003; 9:40 PM
WASHINGTON - The son of former vice president and 2000 Democratic presidential candidate Al Gore has been charged with marijuana possession.
Albert A. Gore III, 21, was arrested Friday night after he was stopped for driving a vehicle without its headlights on. Two passengers were also arrested and charged with misdemeanor marijuana possession. They were identified as Yann V. Kumin, 21, and Marc G. Hordon, 22, boof Cambridge, Mass. A Montgomery County, Md., police officer stopped the car, a dark-colored Cadillac, in Bethesda, a Washington suburb, around 11:30 p.m. Friday. The officer noticed the car's windows and sunroof were open, despite cold temperatures Friday night. There was also a smell of marijuana coming from the vehicle, according to a news release from the police department.
A search of the vehicle turned up a partial marijuana cigarette, a cigarette box containing suspected marijuana, and a soft drink can that also smelled of marijuana. All three were released pending trial. In September 2002, the younger Gore was ticketed for driving under the influence. He was pulled over and ticketed by military police just outside Fort Myer in suburban Virginia, but was not taken into custody. In the summer of 2000, Gore was cited by the North Carolina Highway Patrol for driving 97 mph in a 55-mph zone. Under an agreement with prosecutors, a reckless driving charge was dropped in the North Carolina case, but he was fined &dol;125 for speeding and his driving privileges in the state were suspended.
Post by: Anonymous on December 22, 2003, 04:14:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 22, 2003, 04:20:00 AM
Post by: Antigen on December 22, 2003, 07:12:00 AM
Quote
On 2003-12-22 01:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Its ok because he is a democrate and probably will be a corrupt two timing president some day. I am sure he has endorsed Bill Dean as well."
Wow! What do you think of good ol'e Rush Limbaugh?
I am not a vegetarian because I love animals; I am a vegetarian because I hate plants.
-- A. Whitney Brown
Post by: Deborah on December 22, 2003, 09:29:00 AM
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =9&start=0 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3276&forum=9&start=0)
Post by: Anonymous on December 22, 2003, 04:31:00 PM
And what I think of people physically addicted to stuff that was prescribed for them is that they're living proof that some medicines with therapeutic value are addictive.
Duh? Like we didn't already know that?
Addiction to drugs that were initially legitimately prescribed isn't a moral flaw, or an "addictive personality," or a character flaw----it's a known medical Side Effect.
Addiction to prescribed medicines should be handled on the same cost-benefits basis as any other noxious medical side effect.
We don't make people stay depressed and not take Prozac just because Nanny is concerned for them that they won't be able to come.
Why the hell should we make terminal or chronic pain patients suffer inadequate pain management just because we're concerned for them that they might get addicted? If your pain problem is going to last for the rest of your life, however long or short that may be, who the hell cares if you're "addicted" or not?
I don't believe in Nanny States.
The Democrats used to be in the Vanguard of fighting against the development of a nanny state, but somewhere along the line they lost the faith, and so now if you value human freedom you have to hold your nose and pick whoever you think will be less bad *this* time.
When they quit reliably championing human freedom, I quit voting for them.
So, what do I think about Limbaugh? I think that like any other chronic pain patient who got addicted to his pain pills, he experienced a known medical side effect and learned that certain aspects of the world weren't as black and white as he had thought. And I think the insight from that experience is the silver lining in the cloud of some guy having a medical side effect.
My only problem with Gore kidlet's pot usage was that he was driving and, from the wide open windows in real cold weather, apparently was driving stoned. If he was not, in fact, driving stoned, then I think I don't give a rip.
If our society is going to have a legal mild intoxicant as a social outlet, pot would be a less harmful one than alcohol---especially to people in the presence of the intoxicated person.
And for the inevitable stereotypers' information, I've never tried pot in my life. Nor do I smoke. And I probably have less than 10 alcoholic drinks a year. The only recreational drug I do routinely is caffeine in cola or coffee.
But I do support reducing public possession or sale drug offenses (consenting adults) to misdemeanors of same class as jaywalking or spitting on the sidewalk, on the theory that the price of freedom is letting other people do things you don't like. I do think some vices should be indulged in private--I think drugs are a bit like sex, that way.
Post by: Anonymous on December 22, 2003, 04:32:00 PM
Post by: Deborah on December 22, 2003, 04:59:00 PM
****************
Perhaps you're just sharing, but soes not to confuse the point of this thread, it was not to place any judgment on ANY of these people's "use". Personally, I couldn't care less myself. It's about the double standards around consequences which is not a partisan issue. Has more to do with status and class, unless someone happens to need a scapegoat at the moment.
Post by: Anonymous on December 22, 2003, 10:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-12-22 13:59:00, Deborah wrote:
"So, what do I think about Limbaugh? I think that like any other chronic pain patient who got addicted to his pain pills, he experienced a known medical side effect and learned that certain aspects of the world weren't as black and white as he had thought. And I think the insight from that experience is the silver lining in the cloud of some guy having a medical side effect.
****************
Perhaps you're just sharing, but soes not to confuse the point of this thread, it was not to place any judgment on ANY of these people's "use". Personally, I couldn't care less myself. It's about the double standards around consequences which is not a partisan issue. Has more to do with status and class, unless someone happens to need a scapegoat at the moment.
"
Okay. I don't really think there should be artificial consequences for drug use/abuse. Let the natural consequences be the consequences they are and let people go to hell in their own way---as long as they don't operate heavy machinery or abuse kids under the influence.
And yeah, I agree about the class factor--the drug issue has been used as a convenient way to criminalize "inconvenient" people.
Post by: Antigen on December 22, 2003, 11:03:00 PM
Quote
Earlier, Antigen wrote:QuoteOn 2003-12-22 01:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Its ok because he is a democrate and probably will be a corrupt two timing president some day. I am sure he has endorsed Bill Dean as well."
Wow! What do you think of good ol'e Rush Limbaugh?
So then, what does Rush being an opiate addict say about conservative pundits? Maybe they're all pill poppers and so that explains why they have such a desperate need for those Haliburton and Dyncorp contracts? Come to think of it, that would explain the most viscious drug warriors, too. Me thinks they doth protest too much.
And check out the latest on Rush:
Quote
Attorney Says Limbaugh Blackmailed by Maid
2 hours, 16 minutes ago
By JILL BARTON, Associated Press Writer
WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. - Rush Limbaugh paid "substantial" blackmail to a former maid before she told law enforcement and a tabloid newspaper about his addiction to prescription painkillers, his attorney told a judge Monday
More: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... nkillers_3 (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031223/ap_on_en_ot/limbaugh_painkillers_3)
::noway::
Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe. -- My First Summer in the Sierra , 1911, page 110.
John Muir
Post by: Anonymous on March 13, 2004, 03:54:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on March 13, 2004, 07:29:00 PM
people in pain need help but the drug companies practically give you a script to get their drugs and profit from your addiction.
we are a nation of drug users legal and illegal... and influenced and controlled by pharmacia - drugs are not the solution- we're missing something and it's not drugs
Post by: Antigen on March 14, 2004, 09:27:00 AM
Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-- F. P. Jones
Post by: Timoclea on March 14, 2004, 01:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-03-13 16:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"try watching TV for a few hours and be bombarded by ads from drug companies saying if you're this or that tell your doctor and get our drug...ads for drugs- didn't see that years ago and now they're everywhere..
people in pain need help but the drug companies practically give you a script to get their drugs and profit from your addiction.
we are a nation of drug users legal and illegal... and influenced and controlled by pharmacia - drugs are not the solution- we're missing something and it's not drugs"
That is sooooo stupid, but I guess you're entitled to your religious beliefs or personal superstitions.
Just so long as you don't try to foist them off on other people and acknowledge other people's right and privilege to think your religious/superstitious sentiments to be stupid ones.
There is a world of difference between having a health problem, whether that problem is deadly or merely inconvenient, and taking the right amount of the right substance(s) as prescribed by a competent professional, or as according to the package directions, to alleviate that problem versus taking mind or mood altering substances that take a sane person and make them temporarily (or permanently) insane or that take a mentally abnormal person and self-medicates that person (or medicates them without *competent* prescription) in a way that either makes the person's abnormality worse, introduces new ones, or fails to control the existing abnormality.
There is a world of difference between taking the right drugs to make you better, versus taking the wrong drugs to make you worse.
Drugs, like guns or chainsaws or hammers, are *tools*. A tool is neither inherently good nor inherently bad. The goodness or badness comes from how the tool is *used*.
I have bipolar II disorder. When I'm off medication, I can go hypomanic and without any drugs at all, at all, get the effect that a lot of drug abusers take psychoactive drugs to achieve. I can also become so morbid I'm dangerous.
For me *not* to take my drugs as prescribed by a competent, licensed physician is every bit as irresponsible as it would be for someone else to take a drug like PCP that would make them temporarily crazy in a dangerous way.
There is a difference between psychoactives and other drugs.
Psychoactives aren't necessarily bad. They're a tool.
The difference between good and bad *USE* of that tool is whether your particular use of the drug is prescribed by a competent person to make you *more* in control of yourself and *more* capable of acting like a responsible, sane person of your own age *OR* whether your use of the drug is prescribed by a medical incompetent (like yourself--even if you're a doctor) and/or is designed to *reduce* your self-control and your ability to act like a responsible, sane person of your own age.
If you use a tool to make you out of [your own] control and dangerous, it's bad.
If you're *naturally* out of [your own] control and dangerous and you use a tool responsibly to restore that control and abate that danger, it's good.
Some religions, like Scientologists, have an extreme aversion to using the tool of drugs, even for a good purpose.
Some individuals have that same aversion, whether religious or superstitious, to the same or lesser degree.
You have the religious freedom to have a greater or lesser aversion to the use of drugs even for a good purpose, but I and many others don't share that aversion.
You didn't say one way or the other, but as long as you realize that you don't have the right to force your religious or superstitious aversion to the tool of drugs off onto those of us who don't share it, you and we can get along just fine.
The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. ... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
--Hermann Goering, Luftwaffe commander, sentenced to death at Nuremberg
Post by: Antigen on March 14, 2004, 02:21:00 PM
Quote
The difference between good and bad *USE* of that tool is whether your particular use of the drug is prescribed by a competent person to make you *more* in control of yourself and *more* capable of acting like a responsible, sane person of your own age *OR* whether your use of the drug is prescribed by a medical incompetent (like yourself--even if you're a doctor) and/or is designed to *reduce* your self-control and your ability to act like a responsible, sane person of your own age.
My pediatrician insisted that breastfeeding was bad for my baby `cause he couldn't keep track of how much she was getting and that I should give Tylenol for a low grade (99ยบ) fever. I irresponsibly, foolishly, wrecklessly and incompetently disregarded his advice.
A couple of years passed, the AMA and JAMA came out w/ reports recomending breastfeeding and leaving a low grade fever alone.
Did I become competent when they changed their minds?
It really puzzles me to see Marijuana connected with Narcotics - Dope and all that crap?it's a thousand times better than whiskey - it's an Assistant - a friend.
Louis Armstrong
Post by: Timoclea on March 14, 2004, 05:03:00 PM
Well, when it comes to psychoactive drugs, nobody can do a good job of self-medication because you can't tell from the inside when you're normal or screwed up.
I don't have a problem with people who aren't dangerous refusing medication because of side-effects.
I certainly don't have a problem with getting second opinions. Getting second opinions is smart, because even among licensed doctors, sometimes you get a quack.
If you're sane and stable and the medication is not psychoactive, then by all means second guess your doctor if you feel you need to.
But sane people taking drugs to make themselves crazy, or crazy people self-medicating, or crazy people going off their medication if that's going to make them dangerous----that's a whole different order of magnitude.
I'm not talking about the occasional drink, smoke, or toke. Responsible use of light recreational drugs is a different kettle of fish. *I* can't--other than the very rare drink---because it would really screw *me* up. But most mentally normal people are not going to be screwed up by light use when they're not going to be operating heavy machinery or responsible for small children.
But light use by sane people isn't self-medicating, either---they aren't doing much more to themselves than making themselves a bit uncoordinated and a bit less competent for a little while. As long as they do that in a safe place, who cares?
That's a little different from PCP or heroin, eh?
Being a street cop, witnessing the tragedy firsthand, I've become
convinced that drug prohibition -- not drugs themselves -- are driving the HIV epidemic and the systemic crime that has swamped our criminal justice systems.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder
Post by: Timoclea on March 14, 2004, 05:16:00 PM
I *also* think drug abuse is very bad for the mentally ill, and the "hard" drugs are bad even for the sane.
And I don't think children should use recreational psychoactives at all beyond a rare glass of wine, as teenagers, with a formal family dinner.
I'd just handle the drug issue with legal pot and walled red light districts for the other stuff to screen out people under 21 and keep dangerously high/plastered/stoned people from leaving as drivers until they sober up.
Then again, I've always supported everyone's right to go to hell in their own way. Just because I think something's stupid doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to do it.
It isn't any of my business, you see.
Guard with jealous attention the public Liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that Jewel. Unfortunately, Nothing will Preserve it but downright Force. Whenever you Give Up that Force, you are ruined.....The Great Object is that every man be armed.....Everyone who is able may have a gun.
- Patrick Henry