Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Antigen on December 16, 2003, 04:29:00 PM
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I copied this anon post from another thread. I'm asking, please, no personal attacks or goofing around in this thread.
This is just the type of subject I would have loved to have discussed w/ program people out in the more commonly accepted reality 20 years ago. This is a beautiful thing! No one's getting thrown to the floor, shut down, threatened w/ lock down or any other serious consequences for failure to agree.
If anyone wants to flame, please aim your flame thrower at the other copy of this post.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=30#28946 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3863&forum=9&start=30#28946)
I'll unlock this new topic in a little while.
Anonymous
Thanks Ginger -
Your forum, as well as others, say that all programs for teens are torture. I guess it all depends on your definition of torture. Juvenile prison is torture, not just mentally, but physically. Suicide, cutting (self torture) bulemia, anorexia...symptoms of ADD (anger, self medication, stomped on self esteem by teachers, etc.) are torture as well.
Finding a program where the underlying reasons for teens self abusing can also be torture - for the parents that have tried so much and still nothing is bringing their child to be what could be considered normal. They torture themselves for not being able to handle it themselves. Torture for the kids that can no longer manipulate their parents into whatever they are manipulating them into.
Rules to following can be torture, sitting in an isolation room can be torture. Parents getting letters from their kid saying they are being abused can be torture. Separation can be torture.
Choices can be painful.
Watching your child destroy their life can be torture, even more torture, in the worst case, would be a lifetime of torture if the child dies and you didn't do anything.
So wwasp torture children...I guess all of these types of schools also torture children. These programs are "private pay" and that makes it a bad thing? What about the state run facilities that hire unqualified staff? Does it make it better because we are all paying for them? Problem with those types of programs/whatever you call them, is that are so short term, they rarely have positive results. Children in the private pay schools not only learn to make better choices, they actually have the time to apply what they've learned.
Do they come home perfect little robots? I wouldn't think so. They are better prepared for life's challenges, though...assuming they complete the entire program. Do they fall? I'm sure they do, we all do in life. We fall, we get up, we fall, we get up again...or not.
Your analogy of Jim Jones is digging pretty low, Ginger. Go to any bookstore and you'll find racks and racks of self-help books. The same things that these schools are actually having the students apply (Bradshaw, Covey, Thom Hartmann...just to name a couple).. not to just read.
Is it torture...could be, just depends on your perception. Kinda like newspaper articles and he said/she said allegations.
Locate the blind spot in the culture--the place where the culture isn't looking, because it dare not--because if it were to look there, its previous values would dissolve.
Terence McKenna
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Sorry I'm late. Had a customer support call.
As your attorney, it is my duty to inform you that it is not important that you understand what I'm doing or why you're paying me so much money. What's important is that you continue to do so.
--Hunter S. Thompson's Samoan Attorney
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If "torture" were necessary for recovery from teen behavior problems, it would be an interesting ethical debate: do the ends justify the means?
What WWASP and STRAIGHT parents and others don't seem to realize, however, is that WITH TROUBLED KIDS (AND ANY OTHER HUMANS), KINDNESS WORKS BETTER THAN ATTACK AND PUNISHMENT.
There is never any therapeutic need for degrading language, humiliation, putdowns, physical "consequences" and petty rules like "no looking at members of the opposite sex" and "no looking out the window."
There is never any therapeutic need for refusal of reading material or contact with the outside world including parents (unless they are extremely abusive) for longer than a few days. There is never any therapeutic need for isolation or restraint--these may be *RARELY* needed to protect someone from harming himself or others, but these tactics are never therapeutic.
There is never any therapeutic need to insult or attack anyone.
People say that only toughness works for "out of control" kids but the only evidence they have to support that is a few stories of out-of-control kids who say "it's the only thing that would have gotten through" and their parents and the salespeople who push these programs. Promoters never hear from those whose kids dropped out-- or they blame them, not the program. They do sometimes hear from program failures-- ie, my kid committed suicide the day I told him he was going back-- but these are simply reframed as "he would have done it years earlier if we hadn't sent him."
Any other failures are explained away as "he didn't do what he was supposed to" "he left early" "he didn't graduate." Never is it considered possible that the program itself could have failed.
This is a sign that something is pseudoscience and cultish-- not based in reality. Any real treatment will have failures since "one size" actually fits none.
And no one can ever know "this was the only thing that could have worked for me"-- I might believe that I was cured of cancer because I had a car accident and the next day my cancer was gone, but few people would be insane enough to crash their cars to try to cure their cancers as a result of my telling them this and charging them $1000 for my insight. I have no real evidence that "nothing else could have worked" if I say so after my accident-- even if I find three other people who say chemo failed and car crashes helped.
The *only* way to know whether something works is to put one group of people through it and leave another alone and/or put another through something different and see who does better. Period.
If WWASP wants to say its programs work-- let them prove it by this method. Bring in an external group of academic researchers and let them do a proper study with control groups and publish it in a peer-reviewed journal.
If it really works, why aren't they doing this? They aren't doing so because their tactics would never pass a human subjects internal review board and because they know that what they are doing works great to bring in $$ and bodies but doesn't do anything to help kids. If anything, it harms-- there is research evidence that "attack therapy" like that used in the seminars and groups causes lasting psychological damage in approximately 10% of normals subjected to it. God knows what % are harmed when it's troubled kids who are exposed.
Sure kids who are "acting out" need boundaries and limits and rules-- but they don't need abuse, humiliation and petty dictatorship. They may even need to be "confronted" about their behavior-- but this offers insight only when it's done in the manner of "I'm worried you are harming yourself because every time you do drugs you wind up in the hospital" not "you're a fucking junkie loser who will never amount to anything."
Since most people who use drugs excessively do it to escape, why do we think giving them more things to want to escape from will help? Why do we think increased pain will make them want fewer painkillers?
Where on earth did we get the idea that love only heals when it is delivered with a barbed wire whip? Why do we believe that treating basic human rights as "priveliges" will make teens more likely to respect us rather than resent us? Why on earth do we think that my fucked up kid can heal your fucked up kid because he's been subjected to a treatment scheme for three months longer than mine? Why do we believe that making depressed kids more miserable will cure them?
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Dear Anon,
I'll concede every point up to and including "Choices can be painful", except for one.
Anonymous
Your forum, as well as others, say that all programs for teens are torture.
Some people in this forum say that, yes. Depends on how you define the term "program" I guess. I signed my kid up for a gymnastics program, that includes some rules and some risk. I think it will enhance her self esteem, give her a chance to make good friends and, btw, to have fun. All that is well worth the risks involved, and the expense. I do hold to a hard line, though, on involuntary involvement in a program, especially where older kids are concerned. The older the kid, the greater the liklihood that whatever disagreement they may have with authority is a sign that they've been paying attention, not a symptom of some illness or character flaw. That's why our society has always gradually given more legal weight to our children's wishes and choices as they get older. We don't let 16 year olds vote or drink or enlist in the armed forces, but we let them drive. They can handle that. We generally leave it up to them, too, whether to play football or join the chess club or not, which friends to choose, what to read and think, etc. After a certain age, we start to pull back from directing their personal growth and let them take charge of that aspect of their lives.
So wwasp torture children...I guess all of these types of schools also torture children. These programs are "private pay" and that makes it a bad thing? What about the state run facilities that hire unqualified staff? Does it make it better because we are all paying for them? Problem with those types of programs/whatever you call them, is that are so short term, they rarely have positive results. Children in the private pay schools not only learn to make better choices, they actually have the time to apply what they've learned.
It's not so easy to tell the difference anymore, but theoretically anyway, a kid has to actually do something pretty bad to some non-consenting victim in order to land up in juvenile detention. In that case, we're not protecting the kid from himself so much as we're protecting others from him. Judge Jim Gray nailed it when he said "We should reserve our jail space for people we're afraid of, not people we're mad at." Our criminal justice system is looking more and more like the Program, though, these days. Here's a post about that:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#28735 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3761&forum=21&start=10#28735)
One of the primary flaws in the Program model, in my view, is that they are involuntary AND they have no concern for the civil rights of their clients. The only diagnostic criteria that matters is the level of distress in the parent. And they go to pretty obscene lenghts in their advertising, lobbying and proselytizing to generate as much of that kind of distress in parents and other caregivers as they possibly can.
You talk about kids who are cutting and starving themselves, but you seem to not understand a couple of important things. MOST of the kids who land up in these places don't have that kind of problem. Many of those who do have those kinds of serious problems have the problems in the first place because their parents have been feeding them a steady diet of this same, though less potent, medicine for as long as they can remember. For a lot of these kids, putting them in this type of program is a lot like the way George Washington's doctors inadvertantly killed him or, for that matter, how just a little more money is supposed to fix our schools or just a few more bombs will bring world peace; just a little more of the same medicine is sure to do the trick.
Do they come home perfect little robots? I wouldn't think so. They are better prepared for life's challenges, though...assuming they complete the entire program. Do they fall? I'm sure they do, we all do in life. We fall, we get up, we fall, we get up again...or not.
How can you even say that? Do you know how many of the people who frequent these forums are Program graduates? Do you really want your family reunion in the year 2025 look like a Program reunion? This is a very old scam here, friend. Not only is the problem to be solved wholely or partially imaginary, but the patented cure is also completely unproven. We know, to a dead certainty, that the methods used in them can be very harmful. Not just unpleasant at the time, but harmful in the long term. And the only evidence of efficacy are testimonials, often outdated and no longer supported by the authors, and what the programs have to say for themselves. Any of them have a real impressibe alumni list? Lots of star athaletes, brilliant doctors and scientitst? Happy, healthy families who, 20 years later, all get together at the holidays to share the season in good cheer? Where the hell are they? I've been chumming the waters for any and all program vets for a number of years now and I haven't run into a whole lot of people who attribute their success and happiness in life to the Program.
Your analogy of Jim Jones is digging pretty low, Ginger. Go to any bookstore and you'll find racks and racks of self-help books. The same things that these schools are actually having the students apply (Bradshaw, Covey, Thom Hartmann...just to name a couple).. not to just read.
No, that's actually not digging at all. Jim Jones started out his career as a cult guru by taking in junkies and employing a little behavior mod to straighten them out. His tactics were controversial but, as claimed by his followers, very effective and right. They and the authorities in this contintent agreed to disagree and that's why they moved to Giana. Same with Synanon, only that one fell apart after Chuck Deiderich was convicted of conspiracy to murder in an attempt to shield his cult from litigation. He tried to off the lawyer representing the plaintif by having a rattle snake with the rattle cut off left in his mailbox. Damned near got him, too, but for a neighbor who found him twitching on the ground in his driveway. To what lengths will these programs go to protect their higher purpose?
Is it torture...could be, just depends on your perception. Kinda like newspaper articles and he said/she said allegations.
Lots of things are torture. I'm going to have some oral surgery pretty soon. It promises to be torture. But I have given fully informed consent to it. I know just what they're going to do, why they're doing it, the risks and costs involved, the likely benefits. I think it's worth it so I'm going to do it. Please wish me luck and don't expect me to make a whole lot of sense during the first week of the new year. I'll be legally, therapeutically and (hopefully) blithely stoned off my rocker for a few days. Maybe I'll put a call in to Rush's open line just for shits and giggles.
But these programs are neither volunary nor demonstrably beneficial.
I tried for years to live according to everyone else's morality.
I tried to live like everyone else, to be like everyone else.
I said the right things even when I felt and thought quite differently.
And the result is a catastrophe.
---Albert Camus
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Other than in the case of a suicidal patient being protected from abusive correspondence, or the outside world being protected from terroristic threats of a violent patient, and that restriction only being for a couple of weeks at most, nobody should *ever* be deprived of the right to send and recieve uncensored correspondence.
Okay, the other case is soldiers whose mail is sometimes censored for national security reasons.
The only reason to cut off someone's uncensored correspondence is to prevent them screaming for help, and to induce Stockholm Syndrome.
ALL programs that cut off correspondence are abusive, and should be forced by the ongoing supervision of Child Protective Services to shape up, or should be shut down.
Some things are okay to do. Some things are not. Shutting off or censoring correspondence is one of the things that is NOT okay to do.
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Ginger - defining "program" is emotional growth or residential treatment, wilderness, rehab, whatever relates to that, not a gymnastics program!
I agree that some parents will send their kid to a "program" if he/she is playing video games to extreme...that's not the majority however. Some will do it because the parents are trying to make a point on who is in control. But...for most of these kids, going voluntarily is NOT an option. Heavy drug use, heavy denial of any dangerous behavior in these kids and a total breakdown in the family is why most parents make this decision out of love, not hate. They don't think their kids are "bad" kids. They themselves know they have problems that need to be looked at.
Many of these kids have been labled ADD/ADHD, and outpatient treatment doesn't work. They are given meds that rarely work for very long. They begin to self-medicate...beyond the blunt, a lot of them go way beyond. ADDers exhibit high risk behaviors with no fear of the consequences. The public schools aren't equipped to handle their "differences" for the mostpart and neither are many private schools. Their anger is triggered by the smallest things, mostly from frustration because they don't fit in and are with others that are on the same path. I don't feel ADD is a bad thing, but society as a whole does. A hundred or more years ago, ADDers were the ones that made things happen, got things done. Today, it's the other way around and to calm the ADDer, they are prescribed meds. What they learn and apply in a wwasp program is a gift to all ADDer's.
They hurt, they hurt deep inside and most of them don't even know why they are hurting. The cutting, the eating disorders, the sex, running away, giving up in school, the destruction of property...and the alcohol and drugs are all ways to cover up their hurt. Even the cutters think they feel good.
So you say you don't think this should be done involuntarily? How long should a parent beg their child to go willingly? If it is court ordered IT IS STILL INVOLUNTARY. If a therapist recommends they go to residential treatment, IT IS STILL INVOLUNTARY. It's just the judge or the therapist doing the same thing the parents are doing. In most cases, their dangerous choices have nothing to do with their rebellion against authority. Hell, rebellion is "normal" for any teenager. It's when it goes beyond that we must intervene. It's our job as parents.
Out here in the real world there are kids doing what they could go to juvenile detention for...they just aren't getting caught by the police. BUT, many are caught and the police don't do anything unless it's a felony.
There are waitlists six months long at most state funded rehabs or treatment centers. Some say they must be a certain age, be high school drop outs, be drug free, etc., to get help. So what's a parent to do? Live with the chaos? What's that going to prove or do in the whole family, especially if there are other kids in the home? Should they just wait it out and hope for the best while the next few years tear their family apart. They choose to pay for the help when there are limited resources in their community in the hopes of bringing their family back together.
Most parents are not getting this kind of help because they have more money than brains...most don't have this kind of private pay tuition at their disposal. These parents are not approached by parents that have a kid in the program. These parents beg for help from therapists, law enforcement, the schools and hit dead ends. They are searching the net for answers. When they call a place like wwasp, they are already in need of intervention. No one has to talk them into it. They are ready for it in most ways, though emotionally and financially it takes all the love they can muster to go through with it and continue for the long haul.
I absolutely DO NOT agree that most parents are to solely to blame for what has happened. On one hand you say that teens have a mind of their own and should be allowed to test their wings, and on the other you blame the parents for the choices their kids make and for their choice in intervening when their kid is destroying their life, through a private pay program. This is not an Ozzie and Harriet world anymore. Each family has their own view of what "destroying their life" means. Fear plays a major part in this decision. Fear of the unknown has many families making this emotional choice.
A teen that successfully graduates a program of this nature will not say the program did it. They will tell you they did the work, the deep inner work, to do it. The programs provide the resources. They are successful because they apply valuable lessons learned every day if they choose to. This program is not some miracle cure. You've gotta want it, or it won't work.
In response to other posts - just my personal view: Someone else posted about petty rules. Don't look out the window? Don't they do that anymore in the public schools? Don't look at the opposite sex? Hey, maybe some guy will break a jelly bracelet on your daughter's wrist and go have sex with her on high school grounds - Petty rules are everywhere and most of us don't agree with them and may break them if we think we can get by with it. I think it's more about learning to be aware of rules and how we handle them. By the time they get to the upper levels of their program, following rules becomes easier. When they return home and go to school or work, the rules are the same in many ways. In the program, if they don' t follow rules, they loose points and privileges - or have time out away from other students - or if they are angrily lashing out at others or property, they may be restrained. In public school, they will be suspended or have detention, be restrained or detained by campus police if they are destroying property. At work...they're put on probation or fired. We may not agree with the consequences, but if we are made clear on what is acceptable and we don't follow the rules, then we also know the consequences and can't blame anyone but ourselves for the outcome.
I don't buy "my parents did this to me" - If smoking weed or drinking is against the parents values, the parents will do something about it, or not. If shoplifting, stealing money, screaming obscenities, punching holes in the walls, dropping out of school, running away, internet dating/sex, cutting, etc., etc., is against the parents values, they will do something about it. What a parent does is their choice, not mine, not yours. Sending a child who is depressed to a program like this could be the best way for them to find those parts of themselves that they feel good about hidden inside the outside behaviors, but only if they are open to it.
What is degrading language? Seeing through someone's bad choices and letting them know you don't accept it? They are learning to define their personal boundaries of what they want in their life. It doesn't have to be degrading to get the point across. Is it painful to finally look at it? Could be! Do some kids verbally attack? I would say yes, they are learning the "how to" of feedback. They usually eventually get that "from the heart" feedback is better taken than attacks. BTW, when I was in high school, my peers were much worse when I didn't want to join in their choices.
Maybe some programs censor outgoing mail. To my knowledge, wwasp programs don't do that. How else can you explain all the garbage they write to their parents in the beginning? I believe they do censor incoming mail, not for written content, but for items that they aren't allowed to receive. Agree or disagree...it is what it is.
I see a lot of parents that want the program to look a certain way, to fix their kid and do it in a pre-determined length of time and when it doesn't happen, they lash out at the program. It's not about the program, it's about their expectations. It's a lack of trust in those that do this everyday and know it's not a "fix." It really IS up to the kid to take it and fly...or not.
No one predicts the future. It's an aware parent that can see what is happening right now and what needs to be done, Will it go away if they ignore it? Like I said, no one can predict the future that I personally know!
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Anon, you've brought up about a dozen different issues. I could give you a few pages on each. But I don't think anyone's going to read and follow all that, you or I included. So I want to address just a couple at a time.
On 2003-12-17 13:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
This is not an Ozzie and Harriet world anymore.
It never was. The Adventures of Ozzie & Harriet was a sitcome. It was fiction. It's a good thing the real world was never like that, too, cause sex didn't exist, even within marriage, there were no bathrooms as far as anyone could tell and no one really knew what the Ozzie did for a living. Was he mafia or something?
In the real world, things don't always go according to plan. Sometimes our plans are bad and our expectations unreasonable. Sometimes you just have bad luck.
You mention, as a criteria for placement, "heavy denial of any dangerous behavior." I read that as the parent is convinced there's something horribly wrong with the kid, but the kid disagrees.
Well how do you know you're right and the kid is wrong? In the criminal justice system, even juvenile, at least to some extent, we have tomes of policy and practice to determine who's right and who's wrong. And it's all based on tried and true customs going all the way back to the Magna Carta. If I do say so, the standards of American justice, when held nearly sacred, are as close to perfect as any human civilization has ever achieved.
By comparison, what's your litmus test for determining that the kid is the one with the problem, not just an overworried parent.
Many of these kids have been labled ADD/ADHD, and outpatient treatment doesn't work. They are given meds that rarely work for very long. They begin to self-medicate...beyond the blunt, a lot of them go way beyond.
You should look into the long term effects of those meds. Not only do they sometimes not "work" for very long, but they can also cause the same long-term damage that recreational or self medicating users get. In this case, it's litterally, it's the fault of the parents and professionals. It still amazes me that people will feed their little kids powerful amphetamines, but then get all bent out of shape when the same kid discovers that pot is really not such a bad thing.
ADDers exhibit high risk behaviors with no fear of the consequences.
Or maybe you're overly anxious and they're not? It's possible, you know.
The public schools aren't equipped to handle their "differences" for the mostpart and neither are many private schools.
We're not really making kids any differently than we ever have. It's the schools and the demands they place on the kids that have changed.
Their anger is triggered by the smallest things, mostly from frustration because they don't fit in and are with others that are on the same path.
Or maybe it's triggered by little reminders of something much more significant. Maybe it has something to do with the adults in their lives constantly trying to convince them that they're damaged goods. It's like Muhchousen by proxy.
I don't feel ADD is a bad thing, but society as a whole does. A hundred or more years ago, ADDers were the ones that made things happen, got things done. Today, it's the other way around and to calm the ADDer, they are prescribed meds. What they learn and apply in a wwasp program is a gift to all ADDer's.
OMG! This is just heartbreaking. You know your kid is not damaged, but possibly gifted. And you go along with the plan to break him just to make him fit into a defective mold? No wonder you have problems in your relationship with him!
They hurt, they hurt deep inside and most of them don't even know why they are hurting. The cutting, the eating disorders, the sex, running away, giving up in school, the destruction of property...and the alcohol and drugs are all ways to cover up their hurt. Even the cutters think they feel good.
Maybe they hurt because they think you don't love them, because you're bent on changing who they are, because you never take their side and defend them from abuse.
Out here in the real world there are kids doing what they could go to juvenile detention for...they just aren't getting caught by the police. BUT, many are caught and the police don't do anything unless it's a felony.
Then you go on to mention begging law enforcement to do something. It honestly sounds to me asif you're bent on believing there's something wrong with your kid, the cops and teachers don't agree with you so you've sought out someone who, for a heafty fee, will sell you the martyrdome you so crave.
I hope your kid gets out of this with some semblance of self respect and sanity. And I honestly hope that, one day, you realize your grave error and sincerely apologize to him. You just can't imagine how much that can mean to a kid. Even if it comes later on, when they're grown. I do not believe in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance.
--Thomas Carlyle
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Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
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Antigen wrote: OMG! This is just heartbreaking. You know your kid is not damaged, but possibly gifted. And you go along with the plan to break him just to make him fit into a defective mold? No wonder you have problems in your relationship with him!"
Ginger - You're reading something into this that is not there. ADDer's are gifted, they're smart, creative and wonderful people. Change them? Hell, no. It's about finding out they're NOT damaged and can get past the meds that were prescribed by someone at home. Getting past the teachers telling them they're stupid for not paying attention or doing their homework. Part of it is about learning to "think" before acting. Changing their core being is not a part of it. It's changing the way they look at themselves. I'm an ADDer! Breaking a kid to fit some defective mold is your definition. Unless "breaking" means taking a deeper look at what "can be." What does BREAKING mean to you? These kids are not broken.
Each and every child, whether ADD or not, deserves the best love and support a parent can give them. Sometimes that's not enough.
I read that you think that there is never a reason to seek help when the parent truly feels there is a need. It's like saying the parent doesn't know their kid better than a judge or therapist? Can you give me more of your thoughts on this?
So much can be assumed in the written word, or in conversation. I really am not here to prove you wrong and me right. I'm not looking for answers to "why" parents do this. I made a statement about Torture and you made a separate thread for this asking those that responded not personally attack. You're judgment of what I am writing, your responses especially toward the end feels like an attack and an assumption that I have a child in a program. FYI, I don't.
I was in a program in Caliente, Nevada when I was 14 - over 35 years ago. :wink:
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P.S. - here is a link to where I was - back in 1969: http://caliente.state.nv.us/ (http://caliente.state.nv.us/) ...but that's a whole other story!
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Ginger, what a profound statement, "OMG! This is heartbreaking. You know your kid is not damaged, but possibly gifted. And you go along with the plan to break him just to make him fit into a defective mold?"
This parent still does not answer the question on why there must be stupid rules. Level 1 cannot look people in the eye, cannot look out a window, cannot pass through a doorway without permission first, etc. Stupid rules are not the same as reasonable laws! He does not answer why the children must be locked up miles away from home and cannot see his parents. He does not answer why they cannot have tasty food and food of reasonable quality. (One mother seemed thrilled to find out that if someone complained about the food, he would lose the right to have any condiments.) He does not answer why berating the student is ever good. He does not answer why punishments in OP can last days or weeks and what good that does.
No child should be incarcerated without a court proceeding. No child should be put into an institution that is not monitored by the juvenile justice system. There needs to be a law with teeth to stop parents from sending children away from home and away from local child protective services. School districts could report children missing from their rolls to child protective services who can then see that federal and state laws are being obeyed by parents. The states strapped by budget deficits can fine parents who break the law and in the process fund the service. (After all, if the parents can afford the school, they can afford a hefty fine.} The present interstate law, unfortunately, is weak. Also, by monitored, I mean many unexpected visits.
Unfortunately Ginger, these parents are SOLD on WWASP and we are talking to my mother's proverbial brick wall.
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On 2003-12-17 16:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
Ginger - You're reading something into this that is not there.
(earlier)
I don't feel ADD is a bad thing, but society as a whole does. A hundred or more years ago, ADDers were the ones that made things happen, got things done. Today, it's the other way around and to calm the ADDer, they are prescribed meds.
It's not there? People labeled ADD today are the same people who used to do things like invent airplanes, write brilliant, dark and moody satire to with the title "Best loved man in the world". The very same traits that America used to celebrate are now banned in places where we force our children to spend a large chunk of their lives.
What they learn and apply in a wwasp program is a gift to all ADDer's.
Where is the evidence of that, anon? What, exactly, makes you think that kids generally come out of WWASP better off for the experience? Please answer me that, if nothing else.
ADDer's are gifted, they're smart, creative and wonderful people. Change them? Hell, no. It's about finding out they're NOT damaged and can get past the meds that were prescribed by someone at home.
Well, thanks for the compliment. Why not start by not going along with the professionals who insist on trying cure their giftedness?
Getting past the teachers telling them they're stupid for not paying attention or doing their homework.
Put the teacher in his or her place. They're wrong. Better yet? Take the kid out of school. Look for other options. There are many. Homeschooling can be anything from sailing around the world, joining parents on business trips to community learning coops to apprenticeships to pursuing a modeling career to ... whatever interests the kid. I would never stand for any teacher calling students stupid.
Each and every child, whether ADD or not, deserves the best love and support a parent can give them. Sometimes that's not enough.
Boy, tell me about it! Sometimes a kid just has to get the hell away from their crazy parents and figure things out for themselves. Mine sure did. She left home at 16 to go be the local drug dealer's bitch. He did to her just about exactly what the Programs do to clients.
It was amazing, horrifying and somewhat ironic when I started reading up and talking to people about battered women and what they're thinking. Here I am, having walked away from a couple of relationships potentially as bad as hers, but never having given it much more thought than "Well, that was not good."
So here I was spending a good deal of time trying to figure out how and to do what I can to end the practice of forced behavior modification, and there went my daughter, voluntarily, against our strenuous objections, to take a dose of the same medicine.
Earlier, you mentioned the rules and explained how benign they are. That has always a problem in trying to explain the Program to people who weren't there. Sure, all alone, out of context, complaining about any of these rules sounds petty. But, taken together, it's just adds up to an incredible amount of psychological pressure.
Maybe you'll understand and see the similarities if I explain how this boy, to whom we affectionately refered as Psycho Boy, went about keeping my daughter on lock-down.
He eavesdropped on her phone calls, read her mail and punished her with accusations and demands for confession if she tried to talk to us or any friend she had before she started dating him. That's how he kept her isolated.
He, his brother and a couple of other guys beat hell out of her best friend's boyfriend with bricks and boards right in front of her. The kid's crime had been to spot this boyfriend pimp slapping my daughter around in a public place and making him stop it. That's how he terrorized her.
When she had a job she liked and she started getting some independence, he'd go to her work and make a scene, threaten to kick the boss' ass or whatever till she got fired. He'd get her jobs where his friends worked and have them report back to him if she flirted with a customer.
He constantly accused her of various petty and great infidelities, dishonesty and sneakiness, most of it imaginary. He interrogated her about these things late into the night till she was tired and confused and just apologized. That's how he kept her addle-brained, confused and off balance.
By the end of it, he was litterally slapping her in the head, calling her stupid for anything or nothing. The kid was so beat down by then, it took her about 10 tries to manage getting herself to the bus station to come back home. She simply couldn't envision doing anything on her own and she was terrified every time the bus stopped because she thought the crazy SOB might show up to get her.
Never the less, once she got here, gathered herself up, got some much needed rest and reprieve, we've discovered that our daughter has grown up a LOT in the time she was away. She's back on track wrt her immidiate career objectives. She's catching up with some of her good old friends, working two jobs, saving for a car and about 3/4 of the way through the paperwork phase of starting her remedial courses to make up for the highschool that she missed.
All in all, she's learned a lot from the school of hard nocks and is no longer the wildly irresponsible 16yo who used to sneak out the bathroom window to spend all her time with anyone within a 2 mile radius who'd threatened our lives.
However, I would not recommend to another mother that they set their daughter up with a violent dope dealer in order to help them with wreckless behavior. Though I must admit, in monetary terms, this was definitely cheaper than a WWASP program.
All we did was keep the door open. We never did tolerate having people in our home who we didn't trust or any of the rest. We fought a lot before she left. We kept in as close contact as we could manage without getting arrested for violating the restraining order Psycho Boy had placed on us. When she needed dental care and he wouldn't spring for it, we paid it, no strings. When she needed a ride to go get her GED, I and her sisters dragged our butts out of bed early and drove her down there, really just happy to have a whole hour to spend with her.
Yes, it was hard, nerve-wracking, terrifying at times, insulting, hurtful and a whole big mess to deal with. But not so much that I didn't know what I was looking at the day Officer Friendly offered to "help" her, if only I would bring criminal charges against her.
And it was not too much to expect. She's our kid. We love her. We had no choice but to stick by her, no matter what. We have always been on her side. She hasn't always known it. But we never forgot the important stuff. If I had it to do over again, I'd yell less, listen more, but otherwise I wouldn't change a thing.
I read that you think that there is never a reason to seek help when the parent truly feels there is a need. It's like saying the parent doesn't know their kid better than a judge or therapist? Can you give me more of your thoughts on this?
No, not that a parent should never seek help for their kid. But there ought to be some check against the kid being subjected to unneccesary, unproven and dangerous methods. And, even when the methods are fairly safe and effective, there ought to be some sort of diagnostic or criminal process by which we can reliably determine whether or not the kid even has a problem to begin with.
So much can be assumed in the written word, or in conversation. I really am not here to prove you wrong and me right. I'm not looking for answers to "why" parents do this. I made a statement about Torture and you made a separate thread for this asking those that responded not personally attack. You're judgment of what I am writing, your responses especially toward the end feels like an attack and an assumption that I have a child in a program. FYI, I don't.
You're right, that was uncalled for and I'm sorry. I just get so angry because I know there are so many kids in that position.
What, exactly, is your interest in this subject? You know mine. Are you an edcon? Program owner or staff? How do you come to know what you know about how these programs work? Please answer this, too.
You mention jail or juvenile detention as torture. But, before you land in either of those places, you get a charge, to which you can plead guilty or not. You get some kind of representation. There are rules and laws in place, sometimes even enforced, to ensure that confinement is the least invasive, least restrictive means of addressing the crime. Oh yeah, there has to be some crime. Not just an overworried parent bent on believing their kid is mentally ill.
That's the biggest difference between criminal justice and these kinds of private placement. That and that the most obnoxious indoctrination tapes they're forced to listen to are Jerry Springer on the men's wing and Oprah on the women's.
I was in a program in Caliente, Nevada when I was 14 - over 35 years ago. :wink:
"
Speak gently! 't is a little thing Dropp'd in the heart's deep well; The good, the joy, that it may bring Eternity shall tell.
-- G. W. Langford: Speak gently.
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So, as I see it, anon is telling us first "ADD" kids were the movers and shakers. Then society came in and gave them drugs and treated them wrong in school. Now, in order to correct that, we must "gift" them the wonderfull present of thought reform....
First, ADD and the rest of the alphabet soup in my estimation is pure garbage. Some of the smartest people I know still shake their leg at age 50 when talking and were hyper kids. We all are different.
Anon, you really can't here yourself talking...can you?<
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-12-18 09:32 ]
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Antigen wrote: "What, exactly, is your interest in this subject? You know mine. Are you an edcon? Program owner or staff? How do you come to know what you know about how these programs work? Please answer this, too."
Ginger - I'm a former student of what used to be called the Nevada Girls Training Center. No, I'm not an ed-con. I am related to a former student of Cross Creek for Boys. I've seen the results first hand.
It sounds like your daughter is home and doing well. I honestly don't know if I would have had the guts to just wait it out and hope for the best.
For GregFL - not all ADDers need residential treatment - geez! Yes, it is a gift if those that are in rt are willing to unwrap it. Most think they aren't good enough, smart enough, awesome enough to create amazing things in their lives because of their label. Our society calls us ADD. A damaging label that breaks us down as defective in some way. Through the wwasp program, ADDers find the gift in who they are and refuse the labels...all WITHOUT medication. I agree that the label is pure garbage. Just another attempt by the pharmaceutical industry to get rich at the expense of our kids.
To both Ginger and GregFL - The evidence is what I learned by my relatives stay there. He is much better off because of what he learned about himself. Instead of the angry, defeated, drug dependent kid that went there, he's very much into doing his own thing now in a much healthier way- he's got a great sense of humor, is working toward his electrical engineering degree, has a healthy relationship with a girl and no longer puts limits on himself if he really wants something to happen. He gained new insights and skills, doesnt dwell on the past and seems to have a great life. And yes, only time will tell, but he's been in college a while and seems to be enjoying his life in a non-destructive way. He's taught me a lot.
I don't have an answer to the "stupid rules" question, other than my view earlier. I should ask someone that's been there that learned what they're all about. Maybe it's as simple as cause and effect.
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This is where the argument gets circular. You wish to point to one example of a kid (relative) that went thru thought reform and is now doing better therefore legitimizing the whole teen help industry and justifying the abuses endured by 10s of thousands of children.
This anecedoctal information neglects to take into account the kids that killed themselves in treatment, died in treatment, became mentally ill or unstable in treatment, or suffered PTSD or other mental symptoms upon exiting, or were just plain pissed off that their parents abandoned them to a bunch of lunatics and other kids hell bent on "helping" them.
As much as it is a wonderfull thing that your relative now appears to be living a healtier life after exiting "teen help", it doesn't necessarily even mean it was due to his incarceration there. Where would he be without the teen help industry? (oh yeah...dead, insane or in jail)
Your argument is anecedotal at best. For every kid that endured his/her torture and feels better off for it, we can parade countless examples of kids harmed by their experience.
The fact is this...the program, as designed by Art barker and CEDU and passed down to these various programs, is evil at its core. It involves brainwashing "tricks" and humiliation tactics that harm many more people than they help.And the most insidious issue of all is they hide these horrible tactics behind "love and caring" and "saving lives" and parents buy into this sham over and over and sit by and watch their children be subjected to techniques designed to break prisoners of war. All this is done under the guise of "helping them" and the parents are complicit in their children's misery, root on their children's captors, pay for it, even choose the program over their kids when confict arises. This really sickens me, to be quite frank with you.
And here is the truth. I am soon to be 45 years old. Most of the kids, the really bad "druggie" kids that avoided treatment when I was a kid are doing good today. Some died. Some still do drugs. The other kids, the thousands of Pinellas county youngsters that went thru the Seed, Most our doing well. Some died. Some continue to do drugs.
I don't think there is a statistical difference between the two groups that is significant. There certainly isn't any study done that indicates otherwise, just a fantasy 90% success rate invented by a cult leader and still bantered around today by various programs. The major difference is that us kids/survivors of the teen help industry get to carry around some additional baggage to deal with into adulthood and once an adult, grew up believing we were different and had reduced value over normal people, and we get to carry around a big shameful secret that our employers, our friends, our children, and even our spouses don't/can't know about. Additional hurdles to jump, so to speak. Some kids never recover from the shame and deal with it far into adulthood in very unhealthy ways. Look around this very website for examples of some of these proud "graduates"..read their stories, listen to the anger and shame and view their unsocial skills they learned in treatment and still use 10, 20 30 years later. Proud graduates that have been "gifted"? I think not.
And where did this highly emotionally charged "dead, Insane or in jail" mantra that leads parents to take such radical measures come from? Is it founded in fact or was it the calling card of a meglamaniac cult leader?
You decide....
"Picture in your mind a moment, $250 saves one young person from a life of drugs with one of three alternatives-death, imprisonment, or psychiatric hospitalization. What an investment-$250 for one life!
Art Barker 1973, the year of my incarceration to "save my life".
And what of these outlandish "success rate" claims. Where does this come from? Is there any study, any legimate science here, or are we just repeating the same bullshit passed down over the years from those responsible for "gifting" this treatment method to our children?
Again, you decide...
"our 90% succes rate is documented by the NIMH (national institute of mental health).
Art Barker in July 1973 in response to questioning of the claimed 90% sucess rate. The NIMH responded to the St Pete times by saying they had not even assessed the success rate of the Seed program. An earlier study by Dade County indicated a 41% Drop out rate. In other words, it was a LIE, an invention of a man that believed himself to be the messiah of children in this country, sent here to save the youth from certain extinction from drug use. This "success rate" LIE was plagarized from Art by all the copycat programs and id still used to this day thruout the teen help industry without any supporting documentation.
Just so you know, the seed is the grandaddy of the Straight lineage of treatment centers in this country.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-12-18 09:31 ]
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On 2003-12-17 21:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
It sounds like your daughter is home and doing well. I honestly don't know if I would have had the guts to just wait it out and hope for the best.
Yes she is. Thanks, but I really can't accept the compliment. I found the courage to just wait it out in that I knew the peril of all of the other alternatives. So I had an unfair advantage over some others. I can't say I wouldn't have taken the offer to have her arrested, charged and forced through Broward County's 'rehab' program if I hadn't known or that I wouldn't have shipped her off to some camp or boarding school, if I hadn't known better. But I do.
You point to one individual, kin to you, as proof of efficacy. Do you discount out of hand everyone else who's risking legal retalliation from WWASP to tell the other side of the story?
And can you explain what it is about the Program that works? How does it work? And can you point to any evidence derived from the tens or hundreds of thousands of former clients to support your assertion that the program is even somewhat likely to be more helpful than harmful?
Our Constitution is in actual operation; everything appears to promise that it will last; but in this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
[ This Message was edited by: Antigen on 2003-12-18 10:29 ]
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Greg - Where did I personally say this kid would be dead, in jail, etc.? I'm not here to talk about your statistics of kids in programs. I was in a program. It didn't work, I didn't want it to work. The time there was only a few months and I was only 14. It wasn't a private pay school. I don't hate my mother, I didn't have any trauma from being there and I don't wonder what my life would be like if I hadn't gone there. It was what it was...a way to get me away from what I was doing to myself, even for a short time. I'm not even sure their "program" had all the opportunities that the current programs like wwasp, CEDU, etc., have now. It's really not important to me.
You are focusing on the money aspect of these programs. If some of the state run facilities weren't funded, it would cost about 350.00 per day per person on the average. I did a little math and found that wwasp schools range from $70-133 per day for each student. It gives the kids time to internalize (apply) what they learn so the time there increases the financial commitment.
I've met some very successful grads from my relative's school. I only know one that fell back to drugs, but is now doing better. I'm not looking at statistics. I look at the person and what they're doing. People are not statistics to justify the monetary commitment. You're assuming they've endured torture. Are you talking about self imposed torture or physical torture at the hands of a staff person? I'd be careful of the answer to that one. You have your view, I have mine. They're both valid to each of us.
Is there really a way to measure success? Success for one person is different for another. My success in business could mean making $40,000 a year, but to another it would mean making $150,000 a year as an example.
Clearly a death in a program would create fear in most people. Of the thousands of kids in a wwasp program, I know of only one that died. I think she bolted from the group in what could have been a runaway attempt. One is hard to take. Every life is precious.
I get that this discussion is supposed to go somewhere? You feel these programs are bad, I feel there's a time and place for them and on the whole do an excellent job of what they are intended for. Neither of us is going to change our views. In a world of illusions, we wouldn't need this kind of help, nor would we need physicians to heal cancer or the military to defend our freedom.
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On 2003-12-18 10:27:00, Antigen wrote:
You point to one individual, kin to you, as proof of efficacy. Do you discount out of hand everyone else who's risking legal retalliation from WWASP to tell the other side of the story?
And can you explain what it is about the Program that works? How does it work? And can you point to any evidence derived from the tens or hundreds of thousands of former clients to support your assertion that the program is even somewhat likely to be more helpful than harmful?
Ginger - I just read your post. I'm out for a while, but will respond when I return.
Added a missing end quote.
[ This Message was edited by: Antigen on 2003-12-18 11:28 ]
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Of the thousands of kids in a wwasp program, I know of only one that died. I think she bolted from the group in what could have been a runaway attempt.
She didn't bolt, she was given permission to leave the room to get something. She took the opportunity of being unsupervised to jump from the upper floor of a building. Though Jay Kay likes to make out it was an escape attempt, I have read nothing that says it was anywhere near the perimeter. You are also forgetting at least two others who killed themselves when their parents threatened to send them back.
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On 2003-12-18 10:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Greg - Where did I personally say this kid would be dead, in jail, etc.? I'm not here to talk about your statistics of kids in programs. I was in a program. It didn't work, I didn't want it to work. The time there was only a few months and I was only 14. It wasn't a private pay school. I don't hate my mother, I didn't have any trauma from being there and I don't wonder what my life would be like if I hadn't gone there. It was what it was...a way to get me away from what I was doing to myself, even for a short time. I'm not even sure their "program" had all the opportunities that the current programs like wwasp, CEDU, etc., have now. It's really not important to me.
You are focusing on the money aspect of these programs. If some of the state run facilities weren't funded, it would cost about 350.00 per day per person on the average. I did a little math and found that wwasp schools range from $70-133 per day for each student. It gives the kids time to internalize (apply) what they learn so the time there increases the financial commitment.
I've met some very successful grads from my relative's school. I only know one that fell back to drugs, but is now doing better. I'm not looking at statistics. I look at the person and what they're doing. People are not statistics to justify the monetary commitment. You're assuming they've endured torture. Are you talking about self imposed torture or physical torture at the hands of a staff person? I'd be careful of the answer to that one. You have your view, I have mine. They're both valid to each of us.
Is there really a way to measure success? Success for one person is different for another. My success in business could mean making $40,000 a year, but to another it would mean making $150,000 a year as an example.
Clearly a death in a program would create fear in most people. Of the thousands of kids in a wwasp program, I know of only one that died. I think she bolted from the group in what could have been a runaway attempt. One is hard to take. Every life is precious.
I get that this discussion is supposed to go somewhere? You feel these programs are bad, I feel there's a time and place for them and on the whole do an excellent job of what they are intended for. Neither of us is going to change our views. In a world of illusions, we wouldn't need this kind of help, nor would we need physicians to heal cancer or the military to defend our freedom. "
You never did use the term Dead, Insane or In jail, Anon, but this is the well established program line for over 30 years used to justify the extreme, to use your word, "torture" placed on these children.
Since you say "neither of us is going to change our views" then this is where I bow out of this discussion. It is proof positive you aren't here for debate, only to hear yourself speak in circles.
I am forever amazed that people who haven't been thru the program themselves can actually hear people who have explained why the program violates so many people and then witness it for themselves on these message boards and then shut their ears to the truth. Hell, even our congress issued a report almost 30 years ago likening a predecessor program to brainwashing tactics used on Prisoners of war and hardly anyone listened. In fact, our future ambassador to Italy, deeply involved in the program, summarily ignored it and helped start Straight Inc. He apparently felt as you, that there was a "place" for these programs.
You have demonstrated once again that my amazement in peoples ability to ignore the truth is misplaced.
Good day to you and to your relative.
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sorry, forgot to log in, the above post is mine.
GregFL
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Ok, well if you're up for it, I'll give you some depth while you're away. Then I'll be busy later and you can give me some homework.
On 2003-12-17 21:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
To both Ginger and GregFL - The evidence is what I learned by my relatives stay there. He is much better off because of what he learned about himself. Instead of the angry, defeated, drug dependent kid that went there, he's very much into doing his own thing now in a much healthier way- he's got a great sense of humor, is working toward his electrical engineering degree, has a healthy relationship with a girl and no longer puts limits on himself if he really wants something to happen. He gained new insights and skills, doesnt dwell on the past and seems to have a great life. And yes, only time will tell, but he's been in college a while and seems to be enjoying his life in a non-destructive way. He's taught me a lot.
I have had the same observation w/ my daughter. But I don't attrubute it to the people who sought to control her over the past couple of years (it wasn't just the boyfriend, the whole extended family is sick; they've all worked for him full time since he was a toddler) I attribute her success to her having had time to think, to grow up and to figure it out and to break away.
That's what usually happens. I have so much broader a perspective on this, having been involved in the industry for, literally, almost as long as I can remember. When I was a little kid, not just my family, but a significant number of families in our area went through The Seed. The program structure was a little different, but the basic method was the same; based on Synanon and very similar to methods used to break down American POWs captured during the Korean war.
For the most part, those of us "blessed" with this kind of "help" have not done as well, by any measure, as those who just grew up without all the "help". Are families are not as close, our careers not as successful, we use more drugs, drink more, are more angry and confrontational, have more nightmares, more divorces, more suicides and accute mental illness than the allegedly bad influences our parents sought to protect us from. Those folks, the ones we were never allowed to be friends with again for fear of getting sent (or sent back) to the program are firemen and city councelmen, business owners and so forth, enjoying life in the same town my whole family left as soon as possible to escape the constant threat of getting put back on front row.
You say that WWASP has only been around for a couple of years and that only one child has died in their care. You probably don't know this, but neither claim is really completely ture.
Here's some sworn testimony from 3 WWASP clients about the one girl who killed herself. It seems unlikely that she expected to survive the leap from the 4th floor. She was escaping, alright, but wasn't trying for the gate.
http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/toc.htm (http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/toc.htm)
WWASP might be generally very good at avoiding actually killing their charges and at preventing suicide while the kids are in the program. So was Straight. But I never, in all my life before or since, saw so many people cutting themselves or running full speed, head first into walls and steel support beams as when I was in the Program. And, of the 12,000 allegedly successful graduates they claim (most of whom they've never talked to since), we know of 40 deaths, over half of which have been suicides. Among survivors, just take a look around these forums!
The cover story is that the kids are all suffering symptoms of withdrawal; responding to bad feelings about themselves that they brought with them and now are unable to mask w/ drugs. That, friend, is a bald faced lie. These problems simply are not anywhere near as prevalent among the populations from which these kids have been rescued.
I don't have an answer to the "stupid rules" question, other than my view earlier. I should ask someone that's been there that learned what they're all about. Maybe it's as simple as cause and effect.
I can tell you about how that works. It's not anything like the way they advertize. Have you ever been romantically involved with an insanely jealous lover, supported by his maniacally co-dependent family? Have you ever known someone in that situation? Well, imagine that X100, but you're only 14 and you can't just storm out and go for a walk when the pressure gets to be too much. You are under intense scrutiny at every moment. You become obsessed with fear of forgetting one of the hundreds of rules and rituals. You're afraid to smile at someone or to neglect to notice someone else's minor infraction. The punishments for these minor failings can be extremely severe and you dare not give away the slightest hint of resentment or resistance. Sympathy for another kid who's getting sanctioned unfairly is also a cardinal sin; you dare not respond in any way but entheusiastic solidarity w/ the Program or there's more where that came from.
At any given moment, you might be dreaming of the day, sometime soon, when you'll get that hour off campus or call home or graduation. But you dare not get your hopes up too high because some minor little mis-step, or even a wholely false allegation by someone else, might take it all away. It is not like the kinds of rules and supervision you'll find in any workplace outside of a Communist bloc country. It is relentless, 24/7/365 and your sentence is uncertain. You're in a situation where everything is entirely beyond your control, and yet everything is your fault.
This is not accidental. This regimen puts most people in a mental state where they're very much more easily manipulated. Add to that, usually inadequate sleep (especially for kids who are under extra sanctions), minimal, often completely inadequate nutrition and the very disorienting effect of being completely cut off from the real world. I was fortunate in that I was familiar enough with the program when I went in that that aspect of it didn't have as big an impact on me. I just kept telling myself "It's all theatre, I'll get out one day".
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On 2003-12-18 10:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
Greg - Where did I personally say this kid would be dead, in jail, etc.?
Just a note. A couple of years ago, TV news magazine, 48 Hours, did an investigative report on WWASP. That's how I came to know about WWASP; a friend recomended that I watch that upcoming episode. Many aspects of the story were horrifyingly familiar to me. Among them, one of the kids interviewed repeated that same mantra, "If it hadn't been for WWASP, I would be dead, insane or in the gutter by now."
I'm not sure of the exact details of whatever connections might exist between WWASP and the Seed branch of the Program. But you tell me; how does a bizarre statement like that make the trip over 2 decades and half a continent from my childhood to this kid's?
"Youths who go through the TASKS seminars sign a pledge of secrecy, so little is known about what happens in them."
http://www.ytyt.org/infobank/document.cfm/parent/522 (http://www.ytyt.org/infobank/document.cfm/parent/522)
What's up with that? Why hide your light under a bushel, eh?
More excellent info:
In trauma-inducing captivity situations, writes reviewer Laura J. Cohen in describing Judith Lewis Herman?s 1992 book Trauma and Recovery, fear is produced "by inconsistent and unpredictable outbursts of violence and by capricious enforcement of petty rules." Captors work to eliminate victims? sense of autonomy by close scrutiny and tight control over their body and bodily functions. What is eaten and when it is eaten, what clothing is worn, timing of sleep and toiletting, all activities of daily living are out of the victim?s control in traumatic captivity. Even when the victim?s basic physical needs are adequately met, this assault on bodily autonomy shames and demoralizes.
From: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =11&Sort=D (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3859&forum=11&Sort=D)
History gives us a kind of chart, and we dare not surrender even a small rushlight in the darkness. The hasty reformer who does not remember the past will find himself condemned to repeat it.
--John Buchan
[ This Message was edited by: Antigen on 2003-12-18 13:26 ]
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Just one more gem from the above referenced article:
1. How to Drive a Kid Crazy.
Writes one 14-year-old about his stay in a mental rehab facility:
"If you do what they want, you are manipulating. If you don't, then you are defiant. If you walk around the ward, then you are pacing, if you sit down, then you are withdrawn. If you say you're sick, then you're trying to get attention. If you say you're not sick, then you are in denial. If you do your schoolwork right then you are a perfectionist who is obsessive about details. If you make mistakes, then you are sloppy and obviously don't care about education. And you know what? My doctor says this hospital is good for me because it's consistent."
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad.
-- Salvador Dali
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Where are the public schools that restrain or isolate kids for looking out the window or looking at a member of the opposite sex?
There probably aren't many because that is ABUSE! And because it doesn't do anything to help anyone.
Do you really think preventing girls from looking at guys is going to prevent them from having sexual thoughts or from trying to act on them when they aren't observed? Why would you *want* to prevent the natural developmental process of human sexuality, which, like it or not, flowers during the teen years?
Do you think your parents should have prevented you having a boyfriend or any dates? young men and women haven't changed-- it's just that parents are more hysterical than ever about teen sex-- even though there's lower teen pregnancy and higher rates of safe sex than when the today's parents were young.
And does it really make sense to lock up a kid and deny him a normal adolescence because he engages in the *normal* activity (it is done by 50% of all high schoolers) of trying marijuana or drinking alcohol (done by 80% of high school seniors)?
What gives you the right to deny someone liberty for years based on something that you don't like?
I could understand if there were evidence that youthful pot smoking and drinking *typically* lead to problems. But we've got over half the population engaged in this-- and the vast majority of them live till 65 or older and life expectancy is going up, not down.
I could also understand if there were evidence that youthful MJ smoking or drinking caused serious academic problems in the majority-- but again, this is simply not true.
Also, I could understand if potsmoking lead to addiction in the majority of cases-- but for the vast majority, they never even try hard drugs, let alone become addicted to them. Only 1% of the population has even tried heroin, for example-- yet 50% have smoked pot. Gateway? Not really.
Given this, there is simply no justification for sending them away and lowering their educational prospects (let's be real Harvard isn't going to look on WWASP as highly as a selective prep school or good public school and let's be real that learning through worksheets doesn't do you at all well preparing for science, math, pre-med or anything else that requires analytical thought).
In fact, the research finds that THE BEST ANTIDOTE TO ADDICTION IS EDUCATION. Despite all the nonsense about addiction being an equal opportunity disease, the fact is that lasting chronic drug problems are far more common amongst those with less education and fewer employment opportunities. So, you get your kid into a worse school *and* you spend the college fund on WWASP, thereby making the odds that he will have a lasting addiction greater, not lower.
Finally, you are confusing correlation and cause when you say that WWASP helped your relative. You cannot know this. The only way you could tell is if he had an identical twin that didn't go and got worse, not better-- and even then, your smaple size would be too small for any real conclusions to be drawn.
Would you want your cancer treatment based on "so and so said this works"? Why would you give your children's mental health care any lower standard?
If you really care about your kids, you would look at the language in the WWASP contract-- which says that they will balance the weight of costs v. the weight of seeking medical care before letting your kid see a physician and run the opposite direction.
Btw,did you know how many teens die, total, in the US population each year. 20,000-- from all causes, including cancer, DWI's etc. There are 30 million teens. There is absolutely no way that WWASP's claims that your kid will be dead if he doesn't attend is true.
If we know that there are 30 million teens, 15 million are potsmokers and to be overly generous, 5 million are seriously abusing drugs or alcohol. That's a death rate of 13 in 1000, just over 1/100th of a percent. And we haven't even factored out the deaths that are from disease and non-drug/alcohol accidents.
Don't fall for the lies and the fear-mongering. Even genuine heroin addicts, who have the worst prognosis, only die at a rate of 1-2% per year-- and that's with HIV included. That adds up quickly, but the odds of your potsmoking binge drinker or promiscuous runaway dying from their behavior are not high.
The odds of being traumatized in an environment with no oversight where parents are told to dismiss all complaints as malingering and where employees are directed to consider cost before seeing a doctor,however....
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On 2003-12-18 17:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Where are the public schools that restrain or isolate kids for looking out the window or looking at a member of the opposite sex?
There probably aren't many because that is ABUSE! And because it doesn't do anything to help anyone.
In Broward, they don't do it on campus. They have a distributed system. The first stage of entry that looks a whole lot like the Program is called JIF (Juvenile Intervention Facility). It's located in downtown Ft. Lauderdale, near the jail, courthouse and the Crystal Cathedral, as locals sometimes call the 5 story glass office building that houses the school district administration offices.
http://www.firn.edu/schools/broward/seagull/jifinfo.htm (http://www.firn.edu/schools/broward/seagull/jifinfo.htm)
Kids don't just get sent there for skipping school, like the web page says. They can land up there for any infraction, including contempt of cop, that would get any adult to ask them to leave campus.
Do you really think preventing girls from looking at guys is going to prevent them from having sexual thoughts or from trying to act on them when they aren't observed? Why would you *want* to prevent the natural developmental process of human sexuality, which, like it or not, flowers during the teen years?
Because sexuality is an emotional hot-button and a direct line to personal autonomy.
If quitting drugs means joining the war on terrorism, does this portend the fire bombing of Amsterdamn ?
--Felton Manifestation
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
[ This Message was edited by: Antigen on 2003-12-18 18:43 ]
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Ginger - this is my response to your question why I think the wwasp program works. I'm not going to debate anything else this time of the evening, though!
The program cannot fail because the program is not and never was a fix-it shop for broken children.
None of the material or processes or anything about the program or the seminars is secret or mysterious or, in fact, anything that hasn't been written down in books for quite some time. What is different with the facilities under the WWASP umbrella is the approach to family healing.
It only makes sense to involve the whole family in the healing. Every family member, present, or absent, played a role in the results of today. And, it makes no sense, at all, to show a kid new tools for managing his/her life if he/she are going back into a family dynamic that hasn't changed. Some kids are strong and adaptable, They will make it, in spite of obstacles. Most are not, and the easiest course of action for all people is to fall back into old patterns.
What if a parent was wrong and sent a kid into the program that was only going through a phase? What if a "regular" kid were sent into the program? I've talked with a lot of grads and a lot of kids who were in the program, but, did not graduate.
I firmly believe that exposure to being accountable for their own choices, and grasping that their life is truly the result of their choices will not hurt any kid.
I sort of suspect that if a kid were sent into the program by trigger-happy parents, that kid would fly through the program, and,...... benefit from it. And, be aware enough to realize that they had benefited.
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Fine, send the parents to Devil's Island and let 'em work on being accountable for their lousy parenting skills. No cell phones, spa treatments or Viagra until they learn to love the omnipotent program. How's that for a cost-effective solution to a strictly American malady called AFFLUENZA?
:rofl:
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Ginger - this is my response to your question why I think the wwasp program works. I'm not going to debate anything else this time of the evening, though!
The program cannot fail because the program is not and never was a fix-it shop for broken children.
Holy Crow! The program can't fail because it doesn't promise anything? It's amazing to me that you can go through the motions of typing that and, apparently, not even understand what you're saing. Look back to the beginning of this thread. You started out from the position that, yeah, well, maybe it's torture. But a lot of things could be considered torture. And that this is justified by the wonderful success rate. Now they're not making any promises, therefore can't be expected to deliver?
What, exactly, do parents expect in return for all that money and autonomy they hand over? Nothing?
Anon, you clearly just don't want to think about it in logical terms.
Did you read the sworn testimony I linked to from Mitchell v Mitchell? Do you discard it out of hand? Or do you think the conditions and treatment these kids describe is justifiable?
On 2003-12-18 22:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
I sort of suspect that if a kid were sent into the program by trigger-happy parents, that kid would fly through the program, and,...... benefit from it. And, be aware enough to realize that they had benefited.
Sure, if it were really just good, old fashioned, strict discipline. But it's not. It's forced confession, constant psyche and emotional pressure, isolation and fear. It's harder sometimes on kids who don't have any real crimes to confess. They're forced to, not only lie about themselves, but really to believe it.
But if you just don't want to see it, you won't. I know of a good many program parents who, 20 or more years later, despite the fact that their kids barely talk to them, still swear by the Program. See, it really is all about the parents. Kids can't sign big checks.who needs regular piss tests more than a former blowski who has his finger on the button?
--Chuck Beyer
[ This Message was edited by: Antigen on 2003-12-19 03:38 ]
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None of the material or processes or anything about the program or the seminars is secret or mysterious or, in fact, anything that hasn't been written down in books for quite some time.
Can you direct me to an account of a TASKS seminar that:
1. Details exactly what happens.
2. Does not claim that the participants take a vow of secrecy.
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What is different with the facilities under the WWASP umbrella is the approach to family healing.
*********************
WWASP talks about Family Healing and bringing families back together, as do other facilities. I have read numerous accountants in which the parent and child are alienated because the teen stopped "working the program".
If the process is useful and helpful to all parties, then I would think the teen would notice and be a voluntary participant. If the method fails to treat the teen respectfully it's easy to understand that many will never volunarily participate.
How is it helpful or useful to incarcerate the teen and require the parents to write a letter informing the teen that they are on a lovely vacation, enjoying themselves without him/her.
This doesn't imply that all family members "played a role". It implies that the teen is the primary source of conflict and stress in the home and deserves their involuntary isolation and "torture", while the family deserves a break, a vacation.
For an example of how parents are brainwashed to think their child is the problem see this post- excerpts of the Dec issue of The Source:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=9&5 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3884&forum=9&5)
Very simply stated, it appears that:
The teen is isolated and has no contact with parents except for an ocassional letter which is censored.
While the teen is being broken down and subjected to extreme control techniques,
The parents are learning how to impliment the techniques, in workshops and/or from other parents. A method that gives an outward appearance of better communication and negotiation, yet when closely analyzed proves to be just a more covert form of manipulation/ coercion.
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"the program can't fail"
What we have here is a prime example of a adult with self inflicted hero worship onto the WWasp model. You cannot reason with them, you cannot change them, you cannot get them to see the elephant in the room.
Unfortunately, this has always been the problem. Thougthful people have always put a spotlight on these abusive programs and the majority of people have always summarily ignored the evidence. The changes in the kids are just too powerfull over the short haul. We have an instant society and this is the equivalent of Microwave popcorn for troubled kids.... Nuke em till their done.
Nothing new.....Parents have always known these programs use brainwashing, islolation and humiliation tactics. That it is okay for this to occur to their children is an indictment of our society at large...
Take a look at how long this has been going on.
"my first reaction was awe. I actually was spellbound. After that first open meeting, my wife and I did not speak during the trip home. Our thoughts were so taken up in what we had witnessed. Some people call it brainwashing. If that's what it is, then give it to me".
A seed parent being interviewed by Staff writer Judy MckNight, St Pete Times, Circa 3/73.
After all, who wouldn't prefer Middle Earth, unless they've been corrupted by a Ring of Power?
December 24, 2002
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[to Deb. Greg beat me to the submit button, apparently. Damn you, Greg! Damn you to hell!!! :wink: ]
Oh, not only that, but this is nothing new. Seed/Straight/SAFE/PFC, etc. required a whole lot more involvment from parents than WWASP type programs. First, it was a rare thing for a kid to go through intake without the parents being in the building. All parties had to sign something and, if it took 8 hours to convince them, that was not a problem for Staff.
Once the kid was in the Program, newcomer parents were required to attend two open meetings a week, which could last till midnight or 1AM easily and a Parent Weekend seminar during the months their kid was on first phase. Before a kid was allowed to go home with their own parents at night, the house had to be checked out by staff. No drugs, no alcohol, locked windows and doors, extra phones, televisions, radios and such removed.
The newly accomplished oldcomer had to have an older oldcomer go live with them. This was officially a temporary measure to ensure that the kid and parents were "working the program" at home. But the pressing need to house newcomers and out of town oldcomers nearly always made it a permanent arrangement.
That's when the real fun began for the parents. Say they had their own kid(s), 2 - 4 newcomers and a couple of out of town oldcomers living in their home. All of them, of course, had to be fed and Mom got to do all the laundry. Additionally, the had to somehow figure out how to get the newcomers and 2nd phasers to the building, clients with jobs to work, others to school and themselves to work, all on time, without speeding or stopping for gas or cigaretts w/ clients in the car. That alone was a monumental effort for the family. But it doesn't stop there, oh no!
The first thing a parent found out when their kid finally "earned" 2nd phase (never knowing that the parents had to comply and show progress in working their own program before the kid could go home) was that the parents were just the niggers. They were not in charge of anything but enforcing program policies. They could not interfere or comment if an oldcomer was being cruel to their newcomer. It was the program, they couldn't possibly understand how it works and so they had to sit down and shut up.
Believe it or not, some parents actually got off on this regimen. That's where Executive Staffers come from. They're not really cloned at a secret undergound base somewhere out in the desert, as was once believed.
Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.
--Winston Churchill
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
[ This Message was edited by: Antigen on 2003-12-19 05:55 ]
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Oh, I know they got off on it Ginger. Funny how the WWasp progrm "Cannot fail" because of family involvemnt. Hell, in 1973, all SIblings of a seedling had to go thru intake and often were coerced into going in the program even when it was obvious they didn't need it. Back then it was called a "druggie attitude". And the parents..omg. My stepmom walked around for 10 years talking like a seedling. My parents went on a hell bent recruiting mission, and we had seed signs in our car, on our house. Seed lingo replaced normal conversation and they were involved to a level of absurdity. Oh yeah, this was 1973/74. This is new????
ALWAYS, you can count on a modern day parent or other interested adult explaining why their version of this sham is the new and improved model that works miracles. They dress up the old transvestite in a new dress and call her a beauty queen, but we all know the truth and know what lies underneath that new dress ::deal:: .
America when will you be angelic
When will you take off your clothes....
America after all it is you and I who are perfect
Not the next world.
--Allen Ginsberg
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-12-19 06:17 ]
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"sort of suspect that if a kid were sent into the program by trigger-happy parents, that kid would fly through the program, and,...... benefit from it. And, be aware enough to realize that they had benefited."
My favorite quote from our program apologist. Other than the obvious implication, that kids who struggle thru the program do so because of their own fault, their own problems, this is a sick statement.
This statement implies that Even if the kid doesn't really have problems, he/she in fact, still benefits from being incarcerated in thought reform/behavior modification. The technics are so beneficial that everyone wins, even those kids without sufficient problems to warrant this extreme treatment. The program is that holy, that good...that infallible.
Shit, this lady sound very much like Art Barker who thought all of america's kids should be seedlings, for the betterment of society at large.
Madam, your crediblity with me on this topic has gone from low to zero.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-12-19 06:32 ]
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I'm thinking it might be useful to create a timeline on the evolution of the infamous industry. Not in a thread on a message board, but more like a webpage.
Even before Seed, etc there were programs- reform homes and military "schools", others? Oh yes, adolescent psych hospitals. Had a young friend who was admitted to one in Dallas for smoking pot. Reform homes were almost always religious and without regulations. Were the old military facilities subject to regs?
I invision each entry looking something like this:
Date of opening/closing
Owner/Founder's name
Brief summary of techniques/methods (50 words)
Personal experience (50-100 words)
Links to relevant reports on the facility.
At the very least it would be interesting to see how the industry has progressed. What developments occured in which years, etc.
My preference would be that the contributor would send the above info which would then be added to the timeline.
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Yes, there were predecessor programs deb. But this Model, what we loosely refer to here as "the program" containing the brainwashing, restriction of movement, isolation and humiliation model derived from the synanon with AA techniques thrown in for good measure, dates back to about 1967-68 CEDU,and then Art Barker took it in 1970 and turned it into a drug rehab for adolescents. Synanon had been initially mostly for adults. Programs far and wide share hauntingly similar techniques derived from the synanon model, AA, and of course, Korean thought reform, including such gems as isolation, sleep deprivation, caloric restriction and public humiliation.
I think your idea is a sound one. Perhaps we could learn of a adolescent program using "the program" model that predates CEDU? that would be very interesting indeed.
Come in the evening, or come in the morning; Come when you 're looked for, or come without warning.
-- Thomas O. Davis (1814-1845): The Welcome.
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Deb, here's a flow chart showing some of the Seed variety of programs.
http://www.thestraights.com/the-straigh ... hts-fc.htm (http://www.thestraights.com/the-straights/thestraights-fc.htm)
But this is a perfect project for relational database work. To start out with, I guess add one field to your list.
Date of opening/closing
Owner/Founder's name
Brief summary of techniques/methods (50 words)
Personal experience (50-100 words)
Links to relevant reports on the facility.
X-Reference: Corporate and individual names that appear in association with other programs.
To do that automagically (which is the whole aim of practical databasing; you want to dump in the data and have it magically sort itself out, showing you relationships and trends you might miss relying on just your own observation and short/long term memory) we'd require a few more fields.
I guess we'd need these, to start with:
owner/founder
director
umbrella/foundation
lawfirm (they all have one)
political affiliations
Any other suggestions?
I have found that the best way to give advice to your children is to find out what they want and then advise them to do it
--Harry S. Truman
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Ginger - it was late when I responded and failed to say that I had asked a graduate why she felt the program worked and that was the response I received from her. I don't necessarily agree with the "the program can't fail" statement, because it isn't clear on what she meant by that statement. I have asked her what she meant by that statement, and will add that when I receive it.
I chose to add it here as it was received just to see what kind of responses it would receive.
Her response included a few links, but I chose not to add those.
I had my own ideas of why it works, parent involvement is definitely one of the biggies, though. The other is the family, along with their child works from the inside out. They begin to rebuild their relationships, first through letters, then through phone calls, then through visits and family seminars.
I know the seminars are not secret in the sense that what is or can be gained is posted right on the seminar website. The purpose for not sharing the content makes sense to me. I wouldn't want to know in advance what to expect. Everyone "gets" their own experiences and to know in advance would create expectations of getting the same things as the other person. Problem is that Dr. Phil put it all out to the world to see a couple of years ago. I worked for a major corporation then and our employer "gifted" this same sort of seminar to the employees, just geared toward employee relations. I got a LOT of value from it. I then chose to attend the wwasp seminars for my personal life and got even more from it. No one told me what I "should" get out of them. My personal experience was not brainwashing, whatever that means.
One link that she sent that gives the info on each seminar. There are links at the bottom to each one. Where's the "secret?"
http://www.resourcerealizations.com/ind ... public.cfm (http://www.resourcerealizations.com/index.cfm?url=http://www.resourcerealizations.com/seminars/public.cfm)
Clearly many of you are not open to this kind of inner work. That's okay! Did anyone say it's for everyone? Many aren't ready for it, and again, that's okay.
Can someone explain what "brainwashing" means in the program for the kids? I hear a lot of complaints about the process of the program for the kids, but not what makes it good/bad.
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Clearly many of you are not open to this kind of inner work. That's okay! Did anyone say it's for everyone? Many aren't ready for it, and again, that's okay.*****
I consider that comment to be arrogant. There are many ways in which people "grow" and change.
I attended an 8-day workshop, that I didn't know at the time was based in this same philosophy-est, lifespring. It wasn't promoted as such. It was very confrontational and it became clear to me that the people "running" the workshop were projecting their own "stuff" onto everyone else.
The leader was a PhD in psychology.
I agreed to show up on time, be honest, not bail, and take the direction of the leader; although I did question the latter "committment" in front of the group, and said I'd agree if the direction was reasonable. There was plenty to eat, no vow of secrecy, and we weren't sleep deprived.
About half-way through, the leader asked everyone to sit in front of the group and tell their life story, while being video taped. When I was finished the leader attacked me for being a "victim". Because I was privy to the leaders own story, it was clear to me that he was actually venting his anger toward his mother for not protecting him from an abusive step-father. Ironically, he was angry at me because I wouldn't go "kidnap" my son from a TBS and risk jail time.
That's when I broke the committment and left the workshop. There had been several red flags prior to this "exercise" and I'd had several heated debates with the leader and at one point accused him of being sexist; but this was the point in which I knew that the leader had not done his own "inner" work and was unable to think objectively about me or anyone else.
Many of the participants had taken previous workshops. Five people from the workshop came to my room. All wanted me to return but all had a different reason, motive. One guy that I liked alot felt abandoned, cried and asked me to please return and hear his story. One guy said he just wanted to understand me, he'd found some of the things I said interesting. He also said that he'd never seen the leader be so hard on a participant-several others confirmed this. I suppose he had never been challenged and didn't take kindly to it. It disrupted the control he needed in the group. One woman, who was a lover of the leader tried her skills at manipulating me back. I ended up "counseling" her on an issues she hadn't been honest about herself.
Bottomline, I would not have been honest to myself if I had stayed and continued to be silent and/or allowed myself to be the whipping boy for the leader. I did not pay to be ridiculed or silenced.
I got the same sense of the "leaders" in the RR seminars from accounts I've read.
****Can someone explain what "brainwashing" means in the program for the kids? I hear a lot of complaints about the process of the program for the kids, but not what makes it good/bad.****
Brainwash - a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up certain beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas.
That appears to be an accurate definition of the methods used in BM facilties and many "inner growth" workshops.
The difference is that I could walk out. The teens can't and their parents often don't due to group pressure. The people I was in "workshop" with "needed" a fearless leader.
My son wasn't a liar before going to TBS. He learned quickly how to lie and how to assess what the adults around him WANTED to hear, in order to avoid abuse. The first few months were hell for him. He couldn't figure it out. In group the "counselor" asked what was up. He expressed concerned about what his older brother was going through at the time. She called him a liar and put him on restriction (no social time, work detail, limit calories) until he was willing to "tell the truth". So...he did the logical thing... he made up a lie... which she accepted as the truth. My son is pretty much on the ball. I can only imagine how this must confuse and ****up the weaker minded kids. That doesn't resemble any form of useful therapy I am aware of or constitute "inner" work. That is training in "how to think the way I think". And lable yourself as I do. In addition, he was told on a regular basis that his thinking was not accurate and that he was basically no good. Uh hum... in a nutshell, brainwashing.
I do not for a minute believe his situation was unique, but rather the method used by most if not all BM facilities.
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What is mind control? Here's a handy reference.
Lifton's Eight Criteria of Mind Control
Milieu (Environmental) Control - Control over the members' flow of information and social interaction. In many groups, there is a "no gossip" rule that keeps people from expressing their doubts or misgivings about what is going on. Members are taught to report those that break the rule, a practice that increases dependence on the leadership. They are sometimes told not to believe anything they see or hear reported by the media.
Mystical Manipulation - The group attributes supernatural influences where none are present--attributing a accident to a member that left to be "God's punishment"--or manipulates situations so they appear spontaneous--members believing that their new feelings and behavior has arisen spontaneously because of joining their new group. The effect is enhanced by the milieu control because dissenting or alternative ideas are not present.
Demand for Purity - Unreasonable rules and unreachable standards are imposed upon the members. The critical, shaming essence of the cult environment is gradually internalized by the members, which builds lots of guilt and shame, further magnifying their dependence on the group. Individuals easily feel inadequate, but are more willing to submit to this because the milieu control limits critical questioning, and the mystical manipulation validates the group's rules.
Confession - Past and present behavior, undesirable feelings are to be confessed. However, the information gained about you can be used against you to make you feel more guilty, powerless, fearful and ultimately in need of the group and the leader's goodness. This environment is set up by the unreasonable demand for purity.
Sacred Science - The teachings of the group are viewed as the ultimate, unquestionable truth. The leader of the group is likewise above criticism as the spokesperson for God on earth, whose Truth should be applied to all humankind and anyone who disagrees or has alternative ideas is not only irreverent, but also unscientific. Mystical manipulation often lends credence to the group's doctrine.
Loading the Language - The group's language serves the purpose of constructing their thinking and shutting down critical thinking abilities. "Groupspeak" forces members to censor, edit and slow down spontaneous bursts of criticism or opposite ideas. Soon members find it easier to talk among themselves than with outsiders, who are given derogatory names such as "of Satan," "unconverted," etc.
Doctrine Over Person - As members rewrite their own personal history or ignore it, they are simultaneously taught to interpret reality through the group concepts and ignore their own experiences and feelings as they occur. Members learn to fit themselves into the group's way of life and individuals are valued only as they conform to group doctrine.
Dispensing of Existence - The group's totalist environment emphasizes that the members are part of an elite or special group. Outsiders are considered unworthy or unenlightened. This thinking leads to the thinking that their whole existence centers on being in the group. If you leave, you join nothingness. This is an extension of doctrine over person. Existence comes to depend on creed (I believe, therefore, I am), submission (I obey, therefore, I am) and total merger with the group's ideology. This is the final step in creating members' dependence on the group.
Adapted from Chapter 22 of Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism by Robert J. Lifton.
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What is a Destructive Cult?
Definition:
A destructive cult is a highly manipulative group which exploits its members and can cause emotional, financial and physical harm. It dictates, in an absolute manner, the behavior, thoughts and emotions of its followers. Coercion and manipulation techniques are used to transform the new recruit into a loyal, obedient and subservient member.
Destructive cults claim a special status, for themselves or their leader that usually sets them in opposition to mainline society and/or the family.
Destructive cults conceal their real nature and goals from prospective members by adopting deceptive behavior in order to attract new recruits.
Cultic Thinking:
Cultic thinking is a way of conceptualizing reality and society by dividing them in two monolithic blocks (black/white, saved/damned, good/evil). Within this framework there is no room for gray areas. Individuals and movements with this kind of thinking automatically classify themselves in the category of the pure and the saved. Subsequently, they look for scapegoats in order to explain problems experienced by them or by society. Cultic thinking is laced with fear and can lead to intolerance and extremism, and is particularly prevalent in times of personal, social or economic crisis.
Finally, question for anon. You've said several times now that the "tools" only work if the client willingly takes them up and works them, or something to that effect. How do you reconcile that with involuntary commitment.Marijuana clearly has medicinal value.
Thousands of seriously ill Americans have
been able to determine that for themselves,
albeit illegally. Like my own family, these
individuals did not wish to break the law but
they had no choice.
--Lyn Nofziger, former deputy chairman of the Republican National Committee
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Deborah - I'm sorry if I sounded arrogant. It wasn't meant to be arrogant. Written words can be filered a lot of ways. I know it's okay to not choose seminars as a way to gain new insights.
I would like to clarify that what you experienced wasn't my take on the seminars I attended. In each one, the seminar leader asked a lot of questions, inquirying questions without demanding that I compromise my own viewpoints. They helped to uncover a lot of things I had never considered before. Not once was I told to think in a certain way, or say things that I didn't really feel. That would have defeated the whole purpose of developing a healthier relationship with myself, don't you think? I want to respond more, but I'm watching my grandson and he's calling....til later.
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I have to disagree with you. You may not realize it yet, but "Many aren't ready for it" certainly does imply that those who take the seminars/
workshops are more 'advanced', 'enlightened', fill in the blank. And those who do not are somehow inferior, less evolved, kinda like chattering pigs, one might say.
Like Daddy Berenstein Bear, let these people show you 'what NOT to do'. Now that would be some valuable 'inner' work.
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http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... forum=9&10 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3107&forum=9&10)
4. When we decided not to complete the TASKS Seminars, several efforts were made to divide us from our child. The program proved to be entirely inflexible when we didn't adopt the Seminars whole-heartedly and they had no provision for helping our family if all family members didn't participate in all the Seminars. Several staff developed hostility towards us and showed it openly to our daughter. Duane Smotherman, the facilitator of our seminar mocked us in a seminar two weeks later at Tranquility in front of our daughter and all the other teens. These behaviors were quite shocking. We have been able to manage some family unity despite all of this, but the strain put on our family by the program's behavior was great. We have talked to other parents who had an even more difficult situation than we did. In many cases they were divorced. When one parent attended the seminar and the other did not it was reported to me by these parents that staff and peers in the program tried to prejudice their child against the parent who did not attend the seminar. As far as we have seen, there is no program which helps families to reunite and resolve family programs when only part of the family members attend all the seminars.
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On 2003-12-19 22:32:00, Deborah wrote:
"http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3107&forum=9&10
4. Several staff developed hostility towards us and showed it openly to our daughter. Duane Smotherman, the facilitator of our seminar mocked us in a seminar two weeks later at Tranquility in front of our daughter and all the other teens. These behaviors were quite shocking. We have been able to manage some family unity despite all of this, but the strain put on our family by the program's behavior was great. We have talked to other parents who had an even more difficult situation than we did. In many cases they were divorced.
"
And here we have the real legacy of the cultic CEDU model adapted by Wwasp . Broken families, hurt children.
But not to worry, Deb...Anon knows someone who benefited (at least shows the appearance-very common post program)and that discounts all negativity.
Never mind that it took me 26 years to bury the hatchet with my father and Ginger's family is still strained. Never mind that your family unit was harmed...all this must be our fault..perhaps we didn't work our programs correctly?
The reality of the abusive techniques and cultic practices of these programs don't matter to people like anon because someone she knows is apparantly doing better.
::bangin::
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-12-20 05:41 ]
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Yup, same game, slightly different lingo.
Back in the day, they had a ritual called "checkout" at The Seed. The rule was that everyone in the household and anyone who wanted to attend Open Meeting or otherwise have contact with Seedlings had to be checked out. Checkout was a lengthy and highly personal interview by staff and, I do believe, sometimes olcomers who might be familiar with the family. If a Seedling wanted to be friends with a non-Seedling when they were nearly ready to graduate, this friend would have to go through the checkout process as well. My older sister had a friend like that.
My dad did not pass muster on his checkout. I remember him cussing about personal questions from some smart assed 16yo druggie. I can only imagine the scene. But the result of this was that he had to move out of the house and couldn't visit while current Seedlings were there. So he used to come to the house on his lunch hour just about every day with a chocolate milk shake or a jug of root beer from Royal Castle for me and my sister.
I never fully understood how my dad responded to this whole bizarre turn of events. He was not one to take an insult gracefully. And he made it very clear that he thought Art Barker was a con man. Never the less, he was always soliciting donations of cash, food or whatever from his friends and coworkers. When my turn came around at Straight, it meant a 4 hour trip each way from Pompano to Sarasota for open meeting every other week, I think it was. Plus, of course, all the money.
I imagine he took a lot of shit in the parents meetings after open meeting because he never would really yell at me or say anything hateful at mic talk. He kept on coming and kept on paying and kept on urging me to work my program and all that. But he also took me aside and showed me where he'd hidden a long screwdriver in my room, just in case of fire or a violent newcomer. I'm sure they held his feet to the fire if they ever found out about that cause I used it to escape one of those times.
Never the less, he shocked me one more time, though, when he lied to a cop in Georgia to try and have me arrested. I wish I'd taken the opportunity to talk to him about it back then. I wanted to ask him how he could believe that I so desperately needed to be locked up if he'd had to lie to try to get me arrested. But I was just too scared. It was just so completely out of character for him to pull something like that. Hell, even when he took me for my intake initially, he told me where I was going. He could have lied to me then, but honesty and integrity were just that much a part of who he was.
So, instead of talking to him, asked the cop to hang around for a few minutes till my sister in law got home from work and I stayed in the cop car.
"Now, I'm a walking dead man," ... "And what bothers me is that I'm dead because I tried to help the kids. And it's all the fault of all those people over there at the DEA." [Dead Man Talking]
--Ben Guillory
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I was invited into this debate for a post on what torture could mean. There's a lot of different subjects from torture, to seminars and a lot in between.
I read the info on cults. I was raised in the Catholic church, including parochial school and I got sucked into a certain way of thinking, which when I got older, realized it didn't fit what my gut told me. It wasn't until years later that I found that I didn't have to attend a church to be spiritual and my spirituality was my own, not anyone elses. I don't look at a catholic, jew, buddhist, christian, etc., etc., as wrong. Whatever fills their heart is all that should really matter, huh? Is organized religion a cult? From what I've read it could be, but I wouldn't stretch it to actually believe it is.
My belief, or my knowing is that the wwasp programs do not tell anyone how to feel or think. It, however, gives them ways to really find what is important to each individual and family. The kids, in the program, have rules to follow, and it really is their choice in how they handle that. If a staff person is doing something that isn't part of that and pushing their beliefs on that child, then there is a problem. Rules and laws are a part of everyday life, is that not so? We can break a rule or a law and may get caught and pay the consequences, whatever that is. Those consequences are known and when anyone breaks the rules or laws, they usually know what the consequences are.
If you choose to say the definition of "breaking a child" is to give them rules with a set of consequences, then I agree. I have been working with youth for many, many years...my own children. Each stage has it's different challenges, and the teen years are the most challenging. I will share what I've learned and continue to learn in a separate post or thread.
Deborah - YOU ARE NOT DAMAGED because you chose not to complete an 8 day seminar that had you being filmed in front of everyone. YIKES! My first response when you said that was that you may not have worked through what came up for you. What you think I meant could very well be the mirror for what you think yourself. Every single person that goes to any seminar will have their own experience. If a person choses not to attend then why make it like it's something I slight you for? Read anything into it you want to.
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If you choose to say the definition of "breaking a child" is to give them rules with a set of consequences, then I agree.
I get the feeling you have no idea what you're talking about here. And, after all that we've talked about in this forum and all the information that's available to you, I have to conclude that your ignorance is very much intentional.
We're talking about kids who, for watever reason, have parents who are freaked out by their behavior. Some of these kids have real problems that would seriously worry a reasonable parent. Many do not. The only diagnostic criteria is the troubled parent.
These troubled parents, on the advice of people who they presume to be experts, then either lie to their kids to trick them into going to the program or hire a couple of thugs to literally kidnap them out of their beds at night.
From there, we proceed to the strip search and other degrading initiation rights. After that, we're not talking anything even close to what can be described by any reasonable person as "rules with a set of consequences". We're taking about constant and intense psychological and emotional abuse. Of course, we can sit here all day long arguing about what really goes on inside these camps. Neither you nor I will ever be allowed to witness it firsthand and, as noted previously, some aspects of the Program are sworn secrets.
So how does anyone other than former Program participants know what goes on? Some of us ask as many different former participants as possible and then guage the liklihood of which ones are telling the truth based on the consistency of their stories.
If there's nothing going on here but a little good old fashioned rules with a set of consequences, then why all the program closures? Why are WWASP programs always making headlines? Why all the investigations? Why are all these kids and so many parents saying the same things about the same people consistently over the course of years?
The great irony here is that any kid who finds themselves in the situation WWASP exists in would be told by program proponants to quit blaming others for their own problems. Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave.
-- William Pitt, 1763
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***Is organized religion a cult?***
I think it does have many of the attributes of a cult and fits the broad definition, as do many social organizations, such as public education.
***My belief, or my knowing is that the wwasp programs do not tell anyone how to feel or think.***
It is not always accomplish overtly. Just as my son was not told which "lie" to concoct, but he knew what they wanted to hear. When that happens day in, day out, that can/does condition one's thinking and processing.
***If a staff person is doing something that isn't part of that and pushing their beliefs on that child, then there is a problem.***
Would that include the belief that it is beneficial and necessary to demand that a child not look at themselves in a mirror or look or talk to the opposite sex, to lie in a face down position on the floor for hours/days, to have no contact with their parents and the outside world...
***Rules and laws are a part of everyday life, is that not so? We can break a rule or a law and may get caught and pay the consequences, whatever that is. Those consequences are known and when anyone breaks the rules or laws, they usually know what the consequences are.***
Every heard of the consequence that fit the "crime"? I have never been punished for looking in a mirror, or for crying because I was scared or homesick, or any of the other unreasonable abuses ex-participants report.
***I have been working with youth for many, many years...my own children.***
Did you subject your children to the rules above? And what consequences did you issues if they violated a rule?
***Deborah - YOU ARE NOT DAMAGED because you chose not to complete an 8 day seminar that had you being filmed in front of everyone.***
Are you implying that I might feel that way? Not at all. Or are you suggesting that I wouldn't be perceived as "damaged" (your word) or "not ready", by WWASP/RR participants had I walked out of one of their seminars? I disagree.
***My first response when you said that was that you may not have worked through what came up for you.***
Nothing "came up" for me. Other than realizing that the leader was not someone I wanted to "follow". That he was not qualified- to my standards- to "help" people.
***What you think I meant could very well be the mirror for what you think yourself.***
Not following you.
***If a person choses not to attend then why make it like it's something I slight you for? Read anything into it you want to.***
I was not implying that you personally would slight me. You are combining my post in which I shared my experience of an est/LS based workshop, with my comments of how seminar advocates view those who refuse to participate or quit; twisting it around to suggest that I'm concerned about being slighted (by you of all people); and that I haven't processed what came up for me. I feel very clear about the experience.
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Deborah wrote: "It is not always accomplish overtly. Just as my son was not told which "lie" to concoct, but he knew what they wanted to hear. When that happens day in, day out, that can/does condition one's thinking and processing."
Deborah, just for clarity sake - your son was not in a wwasp program. Is it possible there is a difference? What the wwasp grads have told me is that "you can't bullshit a bullshitter." Explained to me as: if they are saying what they think you want to hear, they can see right through it. THey might be able to fake it for the staff once in a while, but they can't fake it with their peers for very long.
Please read the link I posted in ANOTHER DEBATE thread. I'd love to hear your take on what it says.
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Sure, it's possible that WWASP is completely different from all other confrontational TC programs. However, it is extremely unlikely once you take into account the hundreds of eye witnesses who describe all the same brainwashing methods.
"You can't shit a shitter" was common lingo at The Seed and Straight, as was "deadinsaneorinjail". Then, of course, there's the well known fact that the WWASP programs have their roots in Synanon, just as The Seed did. Oh, and btw, so did Elan. You might be interested in a recent post to that forum.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 94&forum=2 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=U&topic=3894&forum=2)
"They might be able to fake it for the staff once in a while, but they can't fake it with their peers for very long."
That's just not true. You can fake it for an extended period of time. Many people do. The trouble is that you have to be completely convincing all the time so you wind up losing track of which was the truth and which was the lie. It's truely madening. Especially when the lies you're required to tell are all horrible things about yourself. That's what drives some kids to harm themselves. That's the sort of thing that could drive an already troubled girl to take a dive, head first, from the 4th floor onto a concrete courtyard.
When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, "Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?"
-- Quentin Crisp
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Ginger - I can't say why wwasp programs are in the news, nor the stories that are written on similar forums. I only go by my own experience of those I've met in person and who nothing to gain or lose by being honest with me. I never hear these stories first hand that I see written in the newspapers, but that's not saying they aren't actually true. I'm not naive, but I'd prefer to go by what I do hear from those that have been there. I've met a lot of these kids through my seminar experience with their parents.
How do you personally sort out what you read from what is fact?
Because your program experience in STRAIGHT was bad, you may tend to believe that everything you read is true. or not. Because my experience out of the program, with the kids I've met, the parents I've met and my own seminar experience, I tend to believe what I know. ANd I really do sort through the other stuff. This PURE company has really tainted the waters of what is real and what is not. It's difficult for me to believe much of what I read on this forum due to that and the constant battles going on. From what I've read, it looks like thsi company has contacted newspaper after newspaper, public officials, etc., to create a lot of what has been reported. Knowing newspaper reporters from an experience I had in the past, I know they omit and sensationalize a bunch. But I also know that's not all there is to it.
I do believe you.
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On 2003-12-20 18:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ginger - I can't say why wwasp programs are in the news, nor the stories that are written on similar forums.
... then ...
It's difficult for me to believe much of what I read on this forum due to that and the constant battles going on. From what I've read, it looks like thsi company has contacted newspaper after newspaper, public officials, etc., to create a lot of what has been reported. Knowing newspaper reporters from an experience I had in the past, I know they omit and sensationalize a bunch. But I also know that's not all there is to it.
You seem to imply that you think PURE is somehow responsible for all of the bad press. That's not even possible. I watched a piece about WWASP on 48 Hours before Sue Scheff ever even put her daughter in Cross Creek.
These reports are coming from a lot of different people who don't even know eachother. Yes, the news media does slant issues. Everybody does. There's just no getting around that. That's why it's important to take in a lot of different points of view and see what stands up.
You look at the glowing testimonials from happy WWASP parents as proof that it's a good thing. I see things like a WWASP mom bragging that her son is set to marry just the right girl cause she knows the girl will drop him in a hot second if he ever touches a beer again. I don't know about you, but that's not the kind of girl I'd want my son to marry. I'd want him to marry one who will stick by him through thick and thin, just like mom and dad have done.
I do believe you. "
Well thank you. I appreciate that.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.
--Thomas Jefferson
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I'm curious as to how the anon WWASPS parent feels about the pending direct-action (HURON)lawsuit? Presuming it will be filed some time in the near future, what does Anon think the impact of the filing will be upon parents with children currently in the program?
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I think I'll just jump in here and see what comes out of it!
You know some parents just don't get it, Ginger. The parent that wanted to keep her son on track by marrying a girl that would drop him like a hot potato for drinking doesn't get it. Maybe she went through all the seminars and never applied anything she learned, who the hell knows. What a lame reason for liking the girl. Shit! Sounds like she doesn't trust her kid. That just solidifies the notion that if the parents don't do the work to do whatever it takes to rebuild what it means to be a family, it won't work.
Yep, stories about programs have been around as long as there have been programs. I think what the ANON was referring to was about the recent stuff because it's been stepped up a lot since Dundee Ranch was invaded and shut down. The jury's still out on what really happened. What's been on this forum since then seems to point at the PURE camp in instigating a lot of the reports. Just my observation.
As far as the "stupid rules" thing. How lame! No matter how stupid a parent thinks the rules are, did their little darling follow rules at home? Didn't they think those rules were stupid? Whether it's don't look out the window, or don't break curfew, they all looked at them as stupid rules. I think it's a great thing to start from square one on rules in the programs. You know what it's all about? It's about "STOP and THINK!!! Becoming conscious of the choices seems to me the "reason" for those stupid rules. DUH!!!
Anyone know the definition of co-dependent????? If that's a big gripe on programs, get real!
As for allegations of abuse. This is getting really, really OLD! GOOD GOD PEOPLE, WAKE UP! If it's true then it will come out in a court of law. Until then realize that a troubled teen will say anything, especially to a weak parent, to get out and fortunately for the kid, it works, so they can get back to misbehavin' "Oh, I'm so sorry I did that to you little jimmy. Let me make it up to you and buy you whatever it is that will make you happy now and I'll let you do anything you want to do to destroy your life. Here let me help. I'll never doubt you again. I know you'll ALWAYS tell me the truth."
Ryan F has proved that! Has anything bad ever happened? Are there humans running these programs and working for them? Hell, I got macked in grade school by a slap happy gym teacher for chewing gum. That teacher was fired, but they didn't close down the grade school.
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Ooops, forgot to respondto the CULT thing!
"Ginger shared this: Dispensing of Existence - The group's totalist environment emphasizes that the members are part of an elite or special group. Outsiders are considered unworthy or unenlightened. This thinking leads to the thinking that their whole existence centers on being in the group. If you leave, you join nothingness. This is an extension of doctrine over person. Existence comes to depend on creed (I believe, therefore, I am), submission (I obey, therefore, I am) and total merger with the group's ideology. This is the final step in creating members' dependence on the group."
IS THIS A CULT FORUM? AREN'T PROGRAM SUPPORTERS OSTRACIZED FOR OPINIONS THAT AREN'T THE MAJORITY HERE? NO, THIS IS NO MORE A CULT FORUM THAN WWASP IS A CULT - BTW, DON'T CATHOLICS HAVE TO GO TO CONFESSION, DOES THAT MAKE THEM A CULT? CALLING SPECIALTY BOARDING SCHOOLS A CULT "IS" REALLY STRETCHING IT.
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On 2003-12-20 22:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm curious as to how the anon WWASPS parent feels about the pending direct-action (HURON)lawsuit? Presuming it will be filed some time in the near future, what does Anon think the impact of the filing will be upon parents with children currently in the program?
"
What is the near future? Heard that in the not so distant past. :rofl:
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On 2003-12-20 22:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
BTW, DON'T CATHOLICS HAVE TO GO TO CONFESSION, DOES THAT MAKE THEM A CULT? CALLING SPECIALTY BOARDING SCHOOLS A CULT "IS" REALLY STRETCHING IT. "
When was the last time you went to confession in front of 300 people??? :evil: Then, after revealing your deepest, darkest secrets did the priest later use that very same information to "humble" you???? How dare you make that comparison.A free people ought...to be armed...
George Washington, 1790
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Ok, here's an example of what I'm trying to say about consistency.
First you say this:
On 2003-12-20 22:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
You know some parents just don't get it, Ginger. The parent that wanted to keep her son on track by marrying a girl that would drop him like a hot potato for drinking doesn't get it. Maybe she went through all the seminars and never applied anything she learned, who the hell knows.
Then, within a coupld of paragraphs, you contradict that sentiment entirely.
As for allegations of abuse. This is getting really, really OLD! GOOD GOD PEOPLE, WAKE UP! If it's true then it will come out in a court of law. Until then realize that a troubled teen will say anything, especially to a weak parent, to get out
Sounds to me asif that mother we were talking about mastered the seminar material beautifully! And this is perfectly conistent with the tone and philosophy I remember from my childhood affiliation with The Seed and Straight whereas your statement above, implying that the Program is all about dignity and respect sounds like something out of the Twilight Zone.
Hell, I got macked in grade school by a slap happy gym teacher for chewing gum. That teacher was fired, but they didn't close down the grade school. "
Yeah, we had a girl knocked up by a gym teacher in our little Christian highschool too. It was very sad. The guy was fresh out of college. The girl was no run around. It was just a case of verbotten love. I heard they married and lived relatively happily ever after.
But he was the only one. This was not something that we heard about repeatedly, over and over, from different kids and parents continually and consistently. Our little school never shut down a program under investigation, never changed their name. And let me tell you somthing, our principal would never have dreamt of passing the buck as Ken Lay and the Lichfields routinely do!
In those vaunted seminars, they tell you that everything that happens to you is your fault. But when hundreds of different people all make the same complaints about the same people, they claim that WWASP is not Dundee :rofl: Then they change the name of the program, move to another location and pretend they've solved the problem.
How can you not see this hypocracy?No citizen of a liberal and democratic nation profits from a victorious war.
--Ludwig von Mises
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On 2003-12-20 22:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
IS THIS A CULT FORUM? AREN'T PROGRAM SUPPORTERS OSTRACIZED FOR OPINIONS THAT AREN'T THE MAJORITY HERE?
You're still here. No one's making you read or respond. There's no consequence for your dissenting opinion. There is no censorship at all, no one is banned unless they do something, repeatedly, to take down the server. If the prevailing opinion seems to be negative toward the program, then it's likely because that really is the prevailing opinion.
NO, THIS IS NO MORE A CULT FORUM THAN WWASP IS A CULT - BTW, DON'T CATHOLICS HAVE TO GO TO CONFESSION, DOES THAT MAKE THEM A CULT? CALLING SPECIALTY BOARDING SCHOOLS A CULT "IS" REALLY STRETCHING IT. "
Ever hear the term "Just trust the program"? Or how about "If you don't DO something quickly, your kid might die in a drunk driving wreck this very weekend!!!!"
Speaking of the Catholics, does anyone remember the Inquisition? The Salem witch hunt?
Here's the definition of the word cult.
Any philisophical group or religion is a cult. That's what the word means. And any one has the potential to become an abusive, high demand group.
Finally, when I was on 5th phase at Straight and taking the pre-training course for staff, I didn't think the program was an abusive cult either. I had never thought about it in that light because thinking such thoughts was verbotten. Even if I had thought it, I had no one to talk to. Saying such a thing would get you started over.
That's the reason for cutting these kids off from the real world. That's the reson for all the restrictions on communication among themselves and w/ their families. If they didn't strictly control their members' communication, if members were allowed to question the program freely, they'd notice all the contradictions and wouldn't believe it.
Government operates best when it allows all messengers to offer their views, allowing the American people to decide which take root and which wither away.
--Harold Furchtgott-Roth, member of the Federal Communications Commission
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Interesting phrase, "trust the program." Actually, I have personally never heard this, but I have heard "trust the process" in relation to the program.
I am going to disagree with the response, Ginger, regarding the "cult" thinking on this board. I should look at the negatives and believe every word that is written on this board. If I don't, then I don't get it, or I'm not living in the real world, or I should just go drink the kool-aid. I know this is not a cult, neither is the Catholic church, neither are specialty boarding schools. I'm not telling anyone here to agree or disagree with my views. It's just telling another side of the story.
I read a lot of "fear" about attending the seminars that wwasp offers, but not from those that have been to them. I was NEVER, EVER told what to think or feel, PERIOD! I was never told to confess in front of 1 or 100 people and had them hold it against me. I was however, asked to reveal secrets to a therapist once, not to have it held against me, but to begin working on it to get over it. I didn't "get over it" until I attended the seminars. I was never degraded, abused verbally, whatever you think happens. Hey, I have an idea! Since they are public, why not put your mouth to rest on something you have not experienced for yourself and GO! No one is going to run after you if you choose to leave and ask you to stay. Why all the assumptions without personal knowledge? Comparisions with "other" experiences are not the same thing. What I attended sounds nothing like what Deborah attended. As an alternative, why not buy the book The Four Agreements Companion Book - it mirrors what these seminars are about in many ways. Good investment in yourself.
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Addition response on cults. Ginger, the definition of cult is clear and can be stretched to a cult that dominates it's members - like Jim Jones. Those are the worst case scenario and when the word "cult" is used, it takes on a very negative connotation. If churches are cults, then that's not a bad thing. It also means to "cultivate" - to grow. Wwasp programs encourage individual thinking and choices.
The kid Corey that killed himself when his parents threatened to send him back confirms that the parents were not thinking "within" but using the program as a weapon. Does every parent get it that has gone to the seminars? Obviously not.
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On 2003-12-21 10:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Interesting phrase, "trust the program." Actually, I have personally never heard this, but I have heard "trust the process" in relation to the program.
And what does that phrase mean? Many different people have said that it's the stock response to any parent who expresses concern or doubt about any aspect of the program. Tell me, why should I discount their experience in favor of yours? He that will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; and he who dares not, is a slave.
--William Drummond (1585-1640)
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Of course you shouldn't believe every word on this board. This is part of the point that keeps flying over your head.
This board is OPEN for opinions. If your kid in the program tries to state an opinion that is contrary to what is expected of him or to voice critisim of the program, he is in big trouble. He is forced to act, look, and behave in a way that is predetermined by a group and often contrary to his actual personality given to him by his genetics and his life experiences. This is one of
many things that makes the program cultish.
You program apologist really don't wanna hear anything but what you already believe to be true after you witness the "miracle" of your changed kid. This is why I mostly bailed from this conversation early.
And confession? You compare program confession to catholic religious confession? How would you like to for example, be told in church that in order to see god you must confess your innermost secrets in front of the whole church and then you admitted to a homosexual expericence. Two months later they stood you up in front of the church and called you a faggot and took turns yelling and screaming at you for two hours straight until you cried and broke, then told you your were worthless before you were lucky enough to be saved by them?
What you people need, you adults that make excuses for the CEDU/seed model programs, is a good six months on the front row of one of these programs Then come back here and share your knowledge because as it stands, you are nothing more than a parrot, an infomercial for your *fill in the blank* program. You really are clueless to what it is like to go thru thought reform.
"NOBODY LIKED YOU ON THE STREETS. YOU ARE A BIG BABY, NOBODY WANTS YOU,NOBODY EVER LIKED YOU, FUCK, YOU COULDN"T EVEN DO IT WITH A COKE BOTTLE"
screamed at a crying 13 year old girl in front of 700 kids in group, during a come down on session in the St Pete Seed, as reported in "these are new times" 1973, and witnessed by GregFL.
Now, I don't remember the exact words used, but you get the idea
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-12-21 12:49 ]
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On 2003-12-21 10:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
The kid Corey that killed himself when his parents threatened to send him back confirms that the parents were not thinking "within" but using the program as a weapon. Does every parent get it that has gone to the seminars? Obviously not. "
Well, from the point of view of an outside observer, WWASP seems to encourage parents to use the warranty as a weapon. That's what the "Exit Plan" is all about. And no, WWASP didn't invent that concept either. That's a standard part of the Program going back to the `70's. It ammounts to a harsh ultimatum; comply with the program or get kicked out of the family.
I got the same ultimatum when I was 18, sitting in the intake room at the LIFE program. I took option B w/ no regrets. But you should know that my mom really, really meant it! In over 20 years, she has never once called just to say hi, how are you. Never once sent a personal letter, just the obligatory holliday cards and doesn't know her grandchildren at all.
When my brother returned from military service in `71, he was given the ultimatum; sign yourself into The Seed or leave the family. He tried it for about 4 months, I think, and finally gave up, left his little brothers in the Program and joined our older sister, who was attending college in Tallahassee.
And that kid Corey is not the first, and probably won't be the last, to resort to desperate measures when faced with return to the Program.
You discard all of the claims of abuse with the relativist fallacy that all troubled teens will say anything to avoid getting help. You must know that anyone who's being tortured will also say just about anything to avoid the torture. How do you tell the difference? You don't, that's how. You simply discard out of hand any claim by anyone, no matter how credible, if it doesn't match "your experience".
Tell ya' what, friend. You sign yourself into the Talbott Center and I'll go to a parent seminar. Then we'll both have some firsthand experience to talk about. While you're there, you just keep hold onto the thought, like life itself, that this too shall pass. That's your best shot at coming out the other end somewhat sane.
Have lots of good fun! And remember! Don't complain about anything that happens to you or about anything you wittness while you're there! That would only be manipulation, right?
Tough Love: Abuse of a type particularly enjoyable to the abuser, in that it combines the pleasures of sadism with those of self-righteousness. Commonly employed and widely admired in 12-step groups.
--Chaz Bufe
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I love Ginger and Greg! They have the power to change hearts and minds and are doing so with wisdom, care and consideration. These are the ingredients (with a dash of humor for good cheer) that will raise public awareness about the plight of a generation of America's youth who once called one of these coercive thought control hellholes HOME.
:tup:
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Ginger - Talbott Center? Good one! Guess if I had an addiction problem that might be an option, huh? I'd much rather go to a place that follows a different model, however, like http://www.lahacienda.com (http://www.lahacienda.com)
Attending a personal growth seminar or two is a completely different scenario.
Someone added a little snipet on the "lawsuit" - read the bottom of the page at http://www.wwasprebuttal.com (http://www.wwasprebuttal.com) regarding their take on this. While you're at it, read the Jeff B deposition. Talk about a sense of humor!
I really acknowledge you Ginger and what you've accomplished despite your experience. Any chance of you acknowledging others for what they've accomplished because of their positive experience?
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Please share your feelings on this little excerpt on the above wwasp site -
"...each School and Programs have at the facility on a daily basis a number of professionals including teachers, therapist (many who are independently contracted by the parents), nurses, visiting doctors, and others who are all under a professional and legal responsibility to report any abuse. All of these professionals are trained to identify abuse or potential abuse. The many Professionals are happy to testify concerning the quality of care at each of the facilities and that there have been no need for reports of abuse made by them or others who work closely with the facilities on a daily basis."
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On 2003-12-21 15:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
I really acknowledge you Ginger and what you've accomplished despite your experience. Any chance of you acknowledging others for what they've accomplished because of their positive experience?
Thanks, I apreciate the compliment. But I'm not done yet. (heh) Yes, I acknowledge others' accomplishments. I can even admit that Stalin built an outstanding railway system, Hitler brought the German economy from a disaster to a success in record time, and Art Barker damned sure did get some people off drugs and had a wicked sense of humor.
But none of these things excuse or justify the harm that these people have done.
I believe these kids and parents who say that their experience with these programs has been harmful. Why should I not believe them? There are so many of them and they're not getting paid to say what they're saying. In fact, they often get punished for it in various ways, but they say it anyway. I'm glad your, what, nephew or brother? seems to be doing well. I really am. But it's not worth the involuntary sacrifices of all the others who are hurt by the experience and it really is too soon to tell for you, I think.
A lot of people take a good long time to come to terms with the fact that it's really not normal or healthy to continually have Program nightmares and other symptoms of PTSD for years. They sing the praises of the Program, they swear it saved their lives and they believe it. But they only believe it for so long as they can keep themselves from looking too closely at what has been done to them.
Don't take my word for it or mine and Greg's or mine and Gregs and the folks who keep dropping in to applaud. Just look up as many program grads as YOU can find, not just the ones WWASP tells you to talk to, and ask them yourself.
We did not inherit this land from our ancestors, we borrow it form our children.
Haida
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On 2003-12-20 18:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ginger - I can't say why wwasp programs are in the news, nor the stories that are written on similar forums. I only go by my own experience of those I've met in person and who nothing to gain or lose by being honest with me. I never hear these stories first hand that I see written in the newspapers, but that's not saying they aren't actually true. I'm not naive, but I'd prefer to go by what I do hear from those that have been there. I've met a lot of these kids through my seminar experience with their parents.
How do you personally sort out what you read from what is fact?
Because your program experience in STRAIGHT was bad, you may tend to believe that everything you read is true. or not. Because my experience out of the program, with the kids I've met, the parents I've met and my own seminar experience, I tend to believe what I know. ANd I really do sort through the other stuff. This PURE company has really tainted the waters of what is real and what is not. It's difficult for me to believe much of what I read on this forum due to that and the constant battles going on. From what I've read, it looks like thsi company has contacted newspaper after newspaper, public officials, etc., to create a lot of what has been reported. Knowing newspaper reporters from an experience I had in the past, I know they omit and sensationalize a bunch. But I also know that's not all there is to it.
I do believe you. "
Tell you what. Got a little test, painless and harmless, to put your money where your mouth is that your relative was not harmed by the program and was really changed by it.
Get a copy of the Myers-Briggs Personality Inventory---there's a book "Please Understand Me" that contains the test---you can get it on Amazon, probably even if it's out of print.
Have your loved one take the test twice. Once answering the questions as he/she would have answered them before going in the program, once now.
Now, this test just gives a four letter personality profile, and to be fair and upfront I'll show you mine before you show me yours---or in this case his or hers: I'm an INTJ.
So, have your loved one take the test, once answering for before, once answering for after, and post it.
So, can you put your money where your mouth is?
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On 2003-12-19 13:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Deborah - I'm sorry if I sounded arrogant. It wasn't meant to be arrogant. Written words can be filered a lot of ways. I know it's okay to not choose seminars as a way to gain new insights.
I would like to clarify that what you experienced wasn't my take on the seminars I attended. In each one, the seminar leader asked a lot of questions, inquirying questions without demanding that I compromise my own viewpoints. They helped to uncover a lot of things I had never considered before. Not once was I told to think in a certain way, or say things that I didn't really feel. That would have defeated the whole purpose of developing a healthier relationship with myself, don't you think? I want to respond more, but I'm watching my grandson and he's calling....til later.
"
Hello? With an undergrad psych degree, if I could control your environment (munchies, lighting, background music) I could get you to believe a hell of a lot of things just by "asking questions" that "helped uncover things I hadn't thought about before".
Ever heard of the Socratic Method? Socrates used it to educate, but it adapts just as easily to indoctrinating---particularly when combined with other subtle psychologically manipulative techniques and cues.
It doesn't take much to render someone *very* suggestible, especially if they're already open to it by being anxious and you seem to be selling solutions---and, in any case, you don't need a 100% conversion rate. A few well-heeled suckers from each event is enough---and you'll get more than a few if you use all the right tricks.
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On 2003-12-20 18:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Deborah wrote: "It is not always accomplish overtly. Just as my son was not told which "lie" to concoct, but he knew what they wanted to hear. When that happens day in, day out, that can/does condition one's thinking and processing."
Deborah, just for clarity sake - your son was not in a wwasp program. Is it possible there is a difference? What the wwasp grads have told me is that "you can't bullshit a bullshitter." Explained to me as: if they are saying what they think you want to hear, they can see right through it. THey might be able to fake it for the staff once in a while, but they can't fake it with their peers for very long.
Please read the link I posted in ANOTHER DEBATE thread. I'd love to hear your take on what it says.
"
I'm sorry, but that's a crock of shit.
With method acting, I can bullshit *anyone*.
And we have had *plenty* of ex-program-kids show up in this and other forums and relate that how they finally got through it was to "play the game"--that is, to use a version of method acting to tell the staff and other kids what they want to hear.
The key to the game with the programs, of course, is to realize you *will* be abused and genuine innocence *will* be taken as bullshit-----so you have to give them just enough of what they want to hear that they can beat on you (metaphorically in some programs, physically in others) and feel good about it, but little enough that you fit within their "Stepford Kids" mold of making "progress."
The problem is that to make the lie convincing, you have to immerse yourself in the role---and some kids get lost in the role---most of the ones who *know* that's what they're doing probably snap out of it quicker than the ones who resist the wrong way and get genuinely broken and brainwashed.
"You can't bullshit a bullshitter"? Complete and utter crap. Bullshitters are some of the easiest people in the world to bullshit if you know how, because their grip on reality is about appearances rather than what's really underneath.
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[/quote]
Don't take my word for it or mine and Greg's or mine and Gregs and the folks who keep dropping in to applaud. Just look up as many program grads as YOU can find, not just the ones WWASP tells you to talk to, and ask them yourself.
[/quote]
Yes, I agree -- even if I am guilty of applauding Ginger, Greg and others for telling it "like it is" in ways that resonate with pundits on either side of the aisle. Sorry, I won't do it again. :smile:
The truth is it is absolutely vital that parents do due-diligence when considering private placement which includes, but is not limited to, locating and interviewing as many program grads as one can find. When speaking with parents or grads who present themselves as "success stories" be aware that anecdotal evidence is more often than not, what you are going to see and hear.
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On 2003-12-21 15:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Please share your feelings on this little excerpt on the above wwasp site -
"...each School and Programs have at the facility on a daily basis a number of professionals including teachers, therapist (many who are independently contracted by the parents), nurses, visiting doctors, and others who are all under a professional and legal responsibility to report any abuse. All of these professionals are trained to identify abuse or potential abuse. The many Professionals are happy to testify concerning the quality of care at each of the facilities and that there have been no need for reports of abuse made by them or others who work closely with the facilities on a daily basis."
"
I feel a deep sense of trepidation connected to an image of that old blow-hard, Dr. Hugh Burns. He had been the executive staff most likely to actually lead a rap and know something, true or not, about each kid. But it turned out either he didn't know much or he's a damned liar.
I talked to him on the phone a couple of years ago, twice. The first time, I asked him if he knew what ever happened to a particular kid I'd been worried about for all these years. Here's my recollection of what happened to that kid http://fornits.com/anonanon/sidetalk/messages/22.htm (http://fornits.com/anonanon/sidetalk/messages/22.htm)
Well Doc said he didn't even remember this kid and that whatever happened to him must have happened after he'd left his job at Straight. Not long after that conversation, I came accross some old newspaper articles, naming good ol'e Doc as a Straight staff member up until at least December of 1982. I'd left the program for the last time in Oct of `82. So there was no way that what he'd told me could have been true and, unless he took 3 days off in a row, there is no possible way that he could have not heard what we were doing to this kid. In short, the son of a bitch lied to me.
So I called up Doc again, only to find the number disconnected. No problem, I had found two numbers for him when I initially looked him up, so I called the other number. Doc was not happy to hear from me. Wouldn't even stay on the phone long enough for me to ask him about this discrepancy. A week later, that second number had been changed as well.
Then comes to mind the physician who examined me in the little medical room in the corner of the big group room. See, I'd been held in a 5 point for around two hours for refusing to apologize to Group for having run away. I didn't want to fight and get beat down, so I just complied. But after two hours, my whole body was numb to the point of intense pain and I started to worry about permanent damage. So I yelled out, twice, "If I miscarry, I'll kill somebody."
Next day, a real live medical doctor (or so I would assume, cause that's what they said he was) came to the building to administer a pregnancy test. I told him, point blank, that I knew I couldn't be pregnant and that I'd only said it to make them stop hurting me. Never heard another word about it.
Anon, this is par for the course. Over and over again, kids who have been in WWASP programs report never having seen a medical doctor, psychiatrist or other professinal for the duration of their stay. Parents and kids rebort huge discrepancies between the sales brochures and the realities of Program life. So we have this small group of people who, whether motivated more by money or by religious zealotry, consistently claim that these other hundreds of people who tell the same stories about them are all liars. They make themselves out to be nobel martyrs, just like Betty Sembler does to this day.
But their story just doesn't wash. They seem to be saying here that the places are just crawling with presumably objective and detached professional people from the outside. But no kid who attends these programs, even those who swear by it, will stand by that claim. No one, including the parents, is allowed access to the clients unless they're convinced that any report of abuse is manipulation.
The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.
--H.L. Mencken
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"...each School and Programs have at the facility on a daily basis a number of professionals including teachers, therapist (many who are independently contracted by the parents), nurses, visiting doctors, and others who are all under a professional and legal responsibility to report any abuse.
[don't these people ever proof-read their stuff, or at least have a high school senior look it over for grammatical or spelling errors before it becomes "official?"
My understanding is that the **only** psychiatric professional allowed onto the Casa by the Sea campus is Dr. Marc Chappius (referred to in one news article by the Utah State department for licensing as "...the bottom of the barrel, not the brightest star in the Utah psychological community." Dr. Chappius charges up to $300 an hour for medical assistance at the school, and a "pre-entrance psych exam" will run the parent about $900 more than the nearly-$4000 admissions package (see contract for Casa by the Sea for exact wording). Dr. Chappius (according to The Guardian/UK article statement by Jay Kay) spends 2 weeks a month in Tranquility Bay, and spreads his time during the rest of the month over the remaining WWASPS facilities (thinly, one would presume).
During my child's sentence in Casa, she knows several other teens whose parents paid for medical visits (apparently told through letters from home), but were never visited by any medical professional. One girl's mother was said to have paid $1000, with no medical visit forthcoming. If one were "lucky" enough to see the Mexican medical doctor visiting, his advice was across-the-board, "Drink more water", regardless of the ailment. BTW, drinking water other than that available from the kiosk in the courtyard of filtered water to fill your plastic water bottle was a Category 5 violation, Self-Mutilation.
My kid went in with braces, and even though I asked about their maintenance during every single letter I wrote her, it wasn't until Month 8 that she was allowed a dental visit. She was taken by a "mama" she did not know into a car (a real adventure, after all that time in confinement), and silently driven into Ensenada. There, the "adventure" ended with her once-over-lightly by a Mexican dentist [not an orthodontist], with new bands (R-W-B, much to the mama's chagrin) and an adjustment. This visit was repeated, but upon returning home after 10 months, the local California orthodonist declared the entire program set back and basically needing to start from where they left off. During this entire period, my kid was only a Level II (not entitiled to talk to peers, phone home, nor *visit offsite*). I have no idea what precipitated the eventual dental care visit, except that maybe they thought they'd better do something, because it didn't look like she was going to cave and go to a higher level soon.
As to the following:
{quote}
All of these professionals are trained to identify abuse or potential abuse. The many Professionals are happy to testify concerning the quality of care at each of the facilities and that there have been no need for reports of abuse made by them or others who work closely with the facilities on a daily basis."
{quote}
...my conversation with Al Anzaldua, embassy officer in Tijuana responsible for "protecting" the rights of US national minor children in his northern Mexico territory, was as follows:
"...I worked a long time with abused children in New Mexico and I can tell you that I recognize abused kids and these kids were not abused."
Mr. Alzaldua related how he walked around the campus with Dace Goulding on his "unannounced" visits [after he and Dace had lunch, about every 3rd Wednesday], and a boy came up to them and said "You owe me a game, Dace" [the boy had a basketball], and Goulding replied, "Not right now". Mr. Anzaldua took this incident to represent the warm fatherly love Mr. Goulding's charges had for him. I would refer to the CIA memorandum from Allen Dulles, first CIA Director to J. Edgar Hoover in 1955, outlining the new phenomenon or brainwashing by the Koreans on our soldiers, and how taking away all hope - and replacing it with the ultimate authority figure - can engender such "misplaced love".
Mr. Anzaldua also related how he had heard much from parents about abuse, and "snuck away to peek around a corner" to see if he could find abuse [kids hanging from irons on the south wall?]. What he found was a small group of kids sunning themselves in beach chairs, overlooking the cliff that fronts the sea at Casa. Anecdotally, one can presume Mr. Anzaldua was carefully guided to see only upper levels, and his "proof" of non-abuse [kick-back tanners] was atypical to say the least.
The only sort of abuse that the US Department of State seems to be able to identify is outright flogging..."Show me the bruises and I'll testify to abuse." Even extended solitary confinement (my kid spent pretty much her entire first 2 months in Worksheets, alone and without physical exercise, school, or decent food..a period encompassing Thanksgiving and Christmas). During this extended "introductory" period, her mother had every-Tuesday phone calls from the staffer in charge, and was told that "She is doing fine...having some problem with the rules, but doing fine".
I somehow suspect a kid can eventually weather getting smacked upside the head as "abuse" better than the grinding, pervasive, helpless knowledge that you are under indefinite sentence for who-knows-what, and that you parent doesn't give a damn. Never trust an authority figure to determine what is and is not abuse of your own child.
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Never trust an authority figure to determine if your kid is being abused, Spots???? Aren't you the one that is attempting to enlist authority figures to do this in Montana? You discount what parents know, but you are saying here the parents are the only ones to know for sure?
Seems that the parents AND the authority figures say there's no abuse, but you can't accept that.
Your contact with the representative in California, so far, has gone no where. Your contact with the Mexican Government didn't say what you wanted to hear, either. IS that the reason you are now saying that the authority figures won't determine abuse is going on or not?
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On 2003-12-22 18:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Never trust an authority figure to determine if your kid is being abused, Spots???? Aren't you the one that is attempting to enlist authority figures to do this in Montana? You discount what parents know, but you are saying here the parents are the only ones to know for sure?
Seems that the parents AND the authority figures say there's no abuse, but you can't accept that.
Your contact with the representative in California, so far, has gone no where. Your contact with the Mexican Government didn't say what you wanted to hear, either. IS that the reason you are now saying that the authority figures won't determine abuse is going on or not?
"
Uh....hello? The stupid sophistry is not flying. Can you say "false alternatives"? I *knew* you could.
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I actually don't advocate for new laws. I think these programs break laws already, every day. We only need to enforce the laws we have.
The trouble is that people have come to accept torture as an accepted way of dealing with their fears about youth and the next generation.
There's big money in it. Not just the program fees and all the direct funding. This industry did not grow out of a vacume. We have an established cultur-wide mental illness when it comes to parenting and families.
We have turned over the sacred right and responsibility of family to talking heads on the idiot box like Dr. Phil, Oprah, Salley Jessy Raphael and Barbara Walters. Barbara Walters will never do an unbiased piece on the industry because her daughter owns a program. Law enforcement aids and abets the scam by criminalizing and disenfranchising normal adolescent behavior.
Kids ta' day! You hear so much about how out of control, wreckless and dangerous kids ta' day are. The fact is, teen pregnancies are DOWN. Teen drug use is DOWN. Teen's never were the perp class in violent and property crime, but they've shown less interest in that in recent years than before. The real dopers and drunks are the baby boomers. We're the ones getting into all the trouble.
We are the ones who have neglected to inform ourselves well enough to even know what the hell laws they're passing that effect our kids. When did the razor wire go up around the highschools? I don't remember that from when I was a kid just 20 years ago. We're the ones who have failed as parents. The kids aren't coming out any different. If you think it's a different world, well don't punish the kid and don't break them to make them fit it. This is the world that we have brought about. If it's too fucked up for kids, then we need to fix it. It's that simple.
To the extent that a society limits its government to policing functions which curb the individuals who engage in aggressive and criminal actions, and conducts its economic affairs on the basis of free and willing exchange, to that extent domestic peace prevails. When a society departs from this norm, its governing class begins, in effect, to make war upon the rest of the nation. A situation is created in which everyone is victimized by everyone else under the fiction of each living at the expense of all.
--Edmund A. Opitz
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May be a bit off what you said Ginger, but how do you explain this:
You have the same two parents to two or three kids. Two of them came through their teen years very differently than one of them...where did they "fail?" The one wasn't loved any less. Just some food for thought on laying blame on the parents.
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Zero Tolerance. For unwanted behavior in the school, home or community. Trip the wire and you could end up facing the ultimate penalty. Forced Behavior McModification in a school or program where nobody gets out until they learn to equate love with obedience, freedom with servitude.
Welcome to the brave new world of emotionally sterilized parenting.
:smokin:
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Spots where do you get your info?
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On 2003-12-22 21:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"May be a bit off what you said Ginger, but how do you explain this:
You have the same two parents to two or three kids. Two of them came through their teen years very differently than one of them...where did they "fail?" The one wasn't loved any less. Just some food for thought on laying blame on the parents.
"
Maybe just when they thought all kids are the same and should be treated so. Or maybe not at all. Maybe the one kid just marches to the beat of a different drummer. Or maybe he actually has some problems and could use some help. But brainwashing isn't helpful to the person receiving it. It only seems to benefit the control freak paying for it.
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
Andrew Tannenbaum
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How about laying blame on no one and realizing that life, especially your child's life in the teenage years, isn't totally in your control?
At some point, you have to trust that they will either make it or fail on their own. Taking drastic measures such as thought reform camp for your child often results in tragic ends and/or lifelong problems for your child and more often than not complicates the existing problems.
You may as well be rolling the dice in vegas with your child's life on the come line, and you are subjecting your loved on to intense trauma and possiblity spliting your family apart forever.
For what? Some perceived gain that cannot be measured...in a place that is overtly abusive and controlling?
Brave new world indeed....
"for $250 dollars Art Barker will turn your brooding, dope-smoking, average rotten teenage into a right-thinking American Kid. Send him a 15 year old Janis Joplin, The way a retired Army colonel did last October, and Barker, who operates out of Florida, will return a Karen Carpenter by Mid November."
These are New Times, 1974 in a national article about the seed.
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The thing about bullshitting a bullshitter is that its very easy if you are telling him what he wants to hear.
If he wants to hear that you did drugs and you tell him you shot 1000 grams of morphine, he'll believe you (even though you couldn't fit that dose of morphine into a syringe and it would kill even a stone junkie if you could).
If he wants to hear that you had sex and you tell him you fucked 100 men in 15 minutes, he'll buy it, even though it's physically impossible.
If you say I *didn't* do any drugs or have any sex, however, you could be telling the god's honest truth and have physical proof of virginity and a negative drug test and you would never be believed in a million years because there is no possibility at all that your parents could be wrong and you could have been put in the program by mistake.
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right, and eventually you will admit to anything they want you to say just to get out of there.
In fact, a common thing that happens is that if you are in one of these programs, the more outlandish your story, the faster you progress out of the early stages. The longer you hold steadfast to the truth, the longer you are severly tortured.
Therefore, culturally, the program early one encourages you to become a liar and to embellish your past. Often, you repeat it so long you start believing it. Then you get 30 years later, people saying they would be deadinsaneorinjail without the program and really believing it to be true, and when you dig a little, you find that they were just smoking some pot at age 14 or something.
Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other.
--James Madison
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Bullshitting, lying, looking good? What's so different about those that choose to do this INSIDE the program? They are all over the world,outside of the programs... your next door neighbor, your co-worker, maybe even a good friend. It's easier to be secretive by what you learned from your first "spanking" from your parents, who learned it from their parents. You may still do the same thing, but decide not to be caught. In the program, you're with your peers 24/7, you're with the staff 24/7 in the beginning. Those that merely "play the game" will eventually show their true colors and then is when their healing begins. If they don't, then that's their choice and the way they will continue to live their life. Neither good or bad, really, just sad.
Maybe, a kid says what they want to hear. Flipside of that is that they are learning to make better choices, even if they don't think so, even if they think they're pulling the wool over everyone's eyes.
What you don't accept is that programs don't work for everyone. You think just because a parent pays for it, it's a guarantee! You gotta want it, or it won't work. Did you ever have a job you hated and couldn't wait to get out of there at the end of the day? Did you ever learn anything from that experience? If you didn't, then you didn't want to.
Yes, programs are here to stay. There will always be kids crying abuse, crying brainwashing, and always parents that believe them. Co-dependence and control are two of the worst drugs I know of. It takes a true commitment and a lot of work to overcome that addiction.
I know that with all the publicity that Tim Weiner started (from the bogus information provided to him from those outside of WWASPS) that wwasps programs are among the safest programs around now. Who would want to fan the flames in their program now?
I full heartedly agree with the philosophy and the process of change that this program stands for. I love and respect children and feel that everyone deserves the best possible way to be happy. These kids and families learn what happiness is. It's a process and I trust that process.
You can look at it positively or negatively, agree or disagree with the process. No, the parents can't control their kids choices, but they can control what they do about it. In the process they learn a better way to relate to each other, a better way to BE a family.
:wink:
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Please explain what you mean by "healing" and why you would equate controlling the attitude and behavior of a "captive teen" and their check-writing parents as good for "change"? Personally, I think anybody that forces children out of their home, school and community and into some behavior-changing-money-making-institution is guilty of abusing the rights of their own child. Go on and admire yourself but know your self-adoration is looked upon by others as pathological, not miraculous.
:roll:
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On 2003-12-30 18:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
Those that merely "play the game" will eventually show their true colors and then is when their healing begins. If they don't, then that's their choice and the way they will continue to live their life. Neither good or bad, really, just sad.
On what, exactly, do you base the assumption that most fakers get caught or that those who get away with it are somehow to be pittied? My pov derives from watching 4 older siblings and half their friends go through the program and then having known them for the 25 or so years since. Then, over the last 6 years or so, I've talked to a LOT of former Straightlings. What's your basis for knowledge on the subject?
Maybe, a kid says what they want to hear. Flipside of that is that they are learning to make better choices, even if they don't think so, even if they think they're pulling the wool over everyone's eyes.
Who defines the term "better" in this context? The kid who will live with the consequences of those choices, possibly for life? Or the strangers who view them with disdain as lying, manipulative, contemptable human beings? What you're describing here is brainwashing. Can you even imagine the horror of discovering that, even in the privacy of your own mind, you can't be sure what you believe and what you're just pretending to believe?
The only place I know to look for stats on that would be to study the pshych pathology of undercover police. Well, that or you could take a frigging look around these forums and see what kind of psychos who graduate from these programs. Not quite exactly like the kids in the brochurs, huh?
What you don't accept is that programs don't work for everyone. You think just because a parent pays for it, it's a guarantee!
Oh no! I don't know where you get the impression that I thought these programs worked at all, far less for everyone. I'm not the one who came up with the bogus 96% success rate or the warranty. Those are entirely the doing of WWASP
http://www.teenswithproblems.com/treatm ... l#warranty (http://www.teenswithproblems.com/treatment.html#warranty)
Straight and The Seed always had the same policy. Art called it an open door policy. Any graduate could drop back in anytime they wanted to bask in the love and support of every person they'd been allowed to talk to for the past year or two. Of course, if someone thought you looked stoned or unhappy or had heard rumors about you, you might not be allowed to leave. That "Open door" policy was always a whole lot more popular among the more controling parents than among any of the clients. One thing I can say for WWASP, at least they're a little more up front about it.
You gotta want it, or it won't work.
And how, exactly, is that compatible with lying to the kid to get them there or outright tying them up and hauling them in against their will? Ya know, one of the significant effects of brainwashing is a total lack of cognative dissonance. When you're able to hold two completely contradictory beliefs and not even notice that they're contradictory, it's a good sign that you might be pretty fully baked.
Did you ever have a job you hated and couldn't wait to get out of there at the end of the day? Did you ever learn anything from that experience? If you didn't, then you didn't want to.
Absolutely. So I can speak from a position of authority in saying that there is NO comparison between tolerating a job that you hate (aside, maybe, from orderly at a particularly stressful psyche ward) and the kind of fatigue, lonliness and constant, nerve rankling stress of being in a 24/7 lock down where they practice confrontational therapy or coercive pursuesion, whichever term you prefer.
Yes, programs are here to stay. There will always be kids crying abuse, crying brainwashing, and always parents that believe them. Co-dependence and control are two of the worst drugs I know of. It takes a true commitment and a lot of work to overcome that addiction.
Yes. And control over others is the most addictive substance nown to mankind. Way more addictive than crack sometimes.
"Tough Love: Abuse of a type particularly enjoyable to the abuser, in that it combines the pleasures of sadism with those of self-righteousness. Commonly employed and widely admired in 12-step groups."
--Chaz Bufe
I know that with all the publicity that Tim Weiner started (from the bogus information provided to him from those outside of WWASPS) that wwasps programs are among the safest programs around now. Who would want to fan the flames in their program now?
I full heartedly agree with the philosophy and the process of change that this program stands for. I love and respect children and feel that everyone deserves the best possible way to be happy. These kids and families learn what happiness is. It's a process and I trust that process.
You can look at it positively or negatively, agree or disagree with the process. No, the parents can't control their kids choices, but they can control what they do about it. In the process they learn a better way to relate to each other, a better way to BE a family.
:wink: "
Tell me about it! There haven't been more than two of the six of us kids living in the same state at the same time for nearly 20 years. Now, there are not even two. A multitude of laws in a country is like a great number of physicians, a sign of weakness and malady.
--Voltaire, philosopher (1694-1778)
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On 2003-12-30 18:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Please explain what you mean by "healing" and why you would equate controlling the attitude and behavior of a "captive teen" and their check-writing parents as good for "change"? Personally, I think anybody that forces children out of their home, school and community and into some behavior-changing-money-making-institution is guilty of abusing the rights of their own child. Go on and admire yourself but know your self-adoration is looked upon by others as pathological, not miraculous.
Okay, so wasn't the kid abusing the parents, the values and the rules? Yes, most, but not all..yada yada yada. The parents abuse the kids rights? Who's abusing whose rights? I don't see it as abusing their rights. From the sound of this, you're saying parents aren't allowed rights! Are you saying the kid has every right to steal, lie, break things, threaten to hit them, run away, skip school, manipulate, on and on? These are not bad kids, they are kids that are crying out for help. They wish they didn't have parents, and could go on their merry way of destroying their life. Hey, there's a lot of them out there that aren't getting the help they need. The lucky ones are the ones that have parents that DO care.
I don't base my love of a child on how much money I have to spend on helping them. How many parents would rather spend it on buying them a new car, expensive toys, etc., in an attempt to buy their good behavior? In my experience, it doesn't work, it only makes them want more and the parents go happily off to work everyday to support the addiction. Hurray to the parents who see that there is something more important than "things."
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On 2003-12-30 18:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Please explain what you mean by "healing" and why you would equate controlling the attitude and behavior of a "captive teen" and their check-writing parents as good for "change"? Personally, I think anybody that forces children out of their home, school and community and into some behavior-changing-money-making-institution is guilty of abusing the rights of their own child. Go on and admire yourself but know your self-adoration is looked upon by others as pathological, not miraculous.
:roll:
"
The key to clarity is, indeed, brevity. What is a committee? A group of the unwilling, picked from the unfit, to do the unnecessary.
-- Richard Harkness, The New York Times, 1960
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On 2003-12-30 19:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
Okay, so wasn't the kid abusing the parents, the values and the rules?
No tellin'. We have a process by which to determin guilt or innocense. Probably the best one ever devised and implimented by mortal humans. It owes all the way back to BOTH the traditions of John Locke and the Magna Carta AND those of the Iroquois Nations. Unfortunately, these programs generally don't avail themselves of this remarkable process. So no one knows for sure if the kid even has a problem. The only criteria for admission seems to be the parents' level of distress and their coorisponding ability to write big checks that don't bounce.
Has it ever occured to you that totally irrational people sometimes have kids? That maybe it would be prudent to use some more objective criteria for admisions than the emotional state of the parents?
From the sound of this, you're saying parents aren't allowed rights! Are you saying the kid has every right to steal, lie, break things, threaten to hit them, run away, skip school, manipulate, on and on?
Try and ignore that voice in your head. No one here said anything like that. Kids have the same right to due process, to objective, reasoned judgement, as anybody else. You can't throw a kid in juvenile detention without some sort of hearing before the courts. Why should a private business presume the right to suspend a person's civil liberties in a closed door financian leal?
I don't base my love of a child on how much money I have to spend on helping them. How many parents would rather spend it on buying them a new car, expensive toys, etc., in an attempt to buy their good behavior? In my experience, it doesn't work, it only makes them want more and the parents go happily off to work everyday to support the addiction. Hurray to the parents who see that there is something more important than "things." "
To me, this shows a totally fucked up attitude toward parenting in general. I like to buy my kids nice things because I love watching them enjoy them.
Look, I understand the impulse, sometimes overwhelming, to grasp at anything just to do something when you think your kid is in danger.
But there is absolutely no credible evidence that I know of to back up the notion that this type of therapy is either safe or effective. Go and look around and see for yourself. You might ask program vets for direction. A lot of us have a common interest in the topic and some are the studious type, inclined to research. There's lots written about the effects of this kind of treatment. Not much of it both credible and good. When a man you like switches from what he said a year ago, or four years ago, he is a broad-minded person who has courage enough to change his mind with changing conditions. When a man you don't like does it, he is a liar who has broken his promise.
-- FRANKLIN P.ADAMS (1861-1960).
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What I don't understand is the "due process" thing. Isn't that done in a court of law? Most of these kids haven't broken any laws (legally speaking) but they have broken a lot of other things. Who says the parents are healthy, happy,wonderful people? When the kid hurts, so do the parents - at least most of the time. Some show it more than others. Anyway, if there is ever a way to have a due process in this type of situation, then I would agree. As it is right now, it comes from the school counselors, the family therapists, and other professionals such as judges and law enforcement officers and of course, the parents in total breakdown.
I keep reading about due process...can that ever really happen? Most judges know these programs are a better alternative than juvenile jail.
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No, most juvenile judges know how bad the Juvenile Justice system is. What they don't know is these private lock-down facilities ain't any better. After all, when was the last time you saw a juvenile judge or family court judge taking a tour of one of these teen warehouses? Second, the Juvenile Justice system does not hold kids indefinitly. Adjudicated youth KNOW the duration of their sentence which is by far, the better deal.
:wave:
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I suppose I'm cynical, but I don't think a kid could ever get a fair shake with "due process" if the parent is intent on warehousing them. It's the parent's (and program's) word against the teens. In my case, both perjured themselves.
The therapists I've encountered were too chicken shit to tell the truth to the parent. Tell the truth and you loose a paying client. One told my son- who was complaining about his dad and step-mom violating their contract agreements and the double standard- to imagine they were ants and squash them between his fingers.
The judge in our situation was swayed by the psych professionals at the program, who were swayed by my ex. They (program "professionals") labeled my son ODD "based on his father's complaints" and were not interested in hearing my view- I wasn't writing the checks. Had this facility complied with the Interstate Compact, at minimum, my son would have received a psych evaluation prior to placement, designed to determine if the placement was appropriate or necessary. Had the person conducting the "evaluation" been a reasonable human being, and known the restrictions (abuses) of the facility, I feel certain s/he would have determined the placement was too extreme and not in his best interest.
The Ed Con who refered my ex gave him the name of a facility over the phone, never even talked to my son. Knew nothing about him, as I learned in a phone conversation with her.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... 9&start=10 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=2224&forum=9&start=10)
If they are allowed to refer out-of-state, they should be required to comply with the compact. It's not 'due process' but it's one more stop on the road to incarceration where a teen might encounter a reasonable human being who'll put up a stop sign.
No one in the process once questioned my ex's (or his wife's) unreasonable and irrational behavior and skewed perception. It was easier to sentence my son for the "sins of his father". Not one of them truly interested in what was in my son's best interest. Daddy was writing the checks and everyone down the line had their hand extended and were all too willing to persecute my son based solely on his father's warped accusations.
And in defense of TheRapists. They probably see this shit everyday and try to help kids cop with ignorant parents as best they can. Unfortunately, I don't think they all know what goes on behind the walls of teen warehouse facilities they support. And there are far too few options for teens who are feared or loathed by their parents. Afterall, you can't make a parent be a 'better' parent, although it sounds like WWASP attempts to do this by going through the backdoor- hook them by taking their "trouble making" teen off their hands, then require them to attend seminars. Sounds to me like WWASP may have an equal disdain for the parents.
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On 2003-12-30 20:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
Most judges know these programs are a better alternative than juvenile jail.
No, most judges take it as an article of faith. But there's no basis for that belief.
Look, this nation was founded on the radical concept of rule of law, not of man. The Bill of Rights is not just a brilliant idea echoing the wisdom of centuries of civilization. It's the law.
There's only so much you can do to a minor child. You can demand that they clean their room, not talk to a particular individual or whatever. If they refuse, you can suspend priviledges, take things away, explain the importants (the old lecture torture... mwoohahahaha!) scream, yell, make threats... whatever. But you can't shackel them, drug them, deprive them of sleep, use physical pain and injury and threats of same, denial of contact with the outside world, etc. to force your will on them. If you can't do these things yourself, by our law and tradition, you cannot employ someone to do it for you.
The only means by which you can deprive an American citizen of their liberty, communication, association, religious freedom, etc., is by the legal process. You cannot hire someone to supercede these basic rights. The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.
--William Safire
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On 2003-12-30 21:29:00, Deborah wrote:
"
I suppose I'm cynical, but I don't think a kid could ever get a fair shake with "due process" if the parent is intent on warehousing them. It's the parent's (and program's) word against the teens. In my case, both perjured themselves.
No, of course you're right about this the way things are today. Over 20 years ago, though, the shrinks and schoolpeople of Dade County, Florida ran Art Barker out of the county over some of the same issues you raise. By late 1982, by some means still beyond my comprehension, my parents and Straight, Inc. were able to convince a Florida judge to initiate extradition proceedings against me for the "crime" of being a (17 & 3/4yo) runnaway in the State of Florida. This after a failed kidnapping attempt and a failed attempt at false arrest.
Things have changed. People in authority are a whole lot more inclined to believe that a kid, any kid, is pathological and in need of some kind of radical intervention.
Afterall, you can't make a parent be a 'better' parent, although it sounds like WWASP attempts to do this by going through the backdoor- hook them by taking their "trouble making" teen off their hands, then require them to attend seminars. Sounds to me like WWASP may have an equal disdain for the parents. "
Deb, I think you're dead on correct in this assessment. I'm going to repeat myself again. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe if I keep trying I'll stumble on just the right turn of a phrase or context or whatever to get this accross. Or maybe I'm just wrong and that's why it doesn't resonate. But here goes, one more time.
The worst of the worst villains in all this do not see themselves as such. They truely believe in what they're doing. This is an age old story, as there are no new ones, only minor deviations in the telling. They are zealots. They will do anything in the name of their holy higher purpose. They are no different, in my view, from the people who are lobbing bomb laden virgins at our soldiers and civilians in Iraq and Israel right now. They do not question the cause. To do so would be heresy.
If you're looking for some malevolent bad guy somewhere behind the scenes, cackling madly over how they're getting over on everyone, you'll be looking for a very long time. I haven't many like that in 3 decades of contact with the industry. I have seen plenty of narcissists, megalomaniacs and professional martyrs.
It's hard for me to explain to anyone who hasn't been a part of it. I remember, though, being caught up in the mob mentality, where druggies or anyone accused of not working their program were fair game for any kind of cruelty. If you're a true believer, that's how it goes.
If you're looking for these people to react to situations like fully aware con artists, you'll miscalculate their next move more often than not. That's why it's important.
Still, as ever, my dearest hope for families caught up in these cultish organizations is for all parties to shake it off and, in the end, choose their family over the cult. It happens that way more often than you may think.
But I haven't noticed any reliable way to make that happen. I just hope that it does in every case. More importantly, I want people in general to look and see the destructive influence that the TOUGHLOVE hategroup has had already on our society. Can you even imagine the Goose Creek SWAT raid happening in the `70's? I mean, even at Penn State, at least there was some kind of credible pretense of provocation on the part of the slain kids. But now? Just showing up to school on time and being young and black is, aparently, cause enough to fear someone enough to hold them at gunpoint with trained attack dogs.
See it, people! Please, please SEE it before it's too late to reverse this cancerous influence on our society.
I have always thought that all men should be free; but if any should be slaves, it should be first those who desire it for themselves, and secondly those who desire it for others. Whenever I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally.
--Abraham Lincoln
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I just read an article on change and transformation in O Magazine: Here is a link to the article:
http://www.oprah.com/omagazine/200401/o ... beck.jhtml (http://www.oprah.com/omagazine/200401/omag_200401_beck.jhtml)
It reminds me of my own process of change, and what I hear from students in wwasps programs. Some never get past the first phase, because it's painful! "Some people fight like crazy to keep their current identities from dissolving."
The full article n the magazine is a wonderful example of how parents and graduates "fly" and how they got there.
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Holy guacamole!!!
"Some people fight like crazy to keep their current identities from dissolving."
Well, yeah! Those would be the sane people, the ones who will fight like crazy to resist brainwashing!
This is just what I'm talking about when I say the troubled parent industry is not the whole problem. It exists, and grows, in response to a demand for their services. What the hell is wrong with us, as a society, that we seek advice for living from freaks on TV? Even AFTER they repeatedly tell us that we need to eliminate our own personalities in order to become successfull, happy Prozac poppers and chronic dieters just like them?
They used to burn witches. Today we laugh at them. Today we jail people for marijuana. Tomorrow they'll laugh at us.
--Robert "Rosie" Rowbotham
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So another unrelated article about how someone thinks the WWASP program works. Why do you W supporters have to resort to unrelated material to explain the W process? Ex: the Lovmour essay. If it is so wonderful and successful, why aren't essays and kudos written about it all over the internet?
Wish I knew Martha Beck. I'd ask her if she supported the breaking down process and abuse employed by all programs. I have dicussed the methods with several PhD child psychologist who did not have a vested interest either way, and they absolutely do not support such BM methods of changing behavior.
The majority of Americans would be up in arms if they knew had any idea what actually goes on behind closed doors.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-01-03 16:05 ]
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Here is a sampling of a few of the thousands of positive successfull stories- WWASPS SUCCESS Stories
I think you will find that these successfull families devote time and engergy to positive activites and do not have time to go to anonmous boards and post stories, not to mention new found suceess with their families and with a WWASP program but also in work, politics etc, success brings success. Plus success speaks for it self they have no need to hand out on meaningless bulletin boards. Plus they share their positive experinces I'm sure within their school board which are private boards.
Cheers ::bigsmilebounce::
To SUCCESS::trophy::
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My Gosh - Look what you just wrote:
"Some people fight like crazy to keep their current identities from dissolving."
And WELL they Should!
What do you think is happening to you when your Identity is Dissolved?
You are given a new one of SOMEONE ELSE?S disign!
Its called Brain washing. Or Conditioning, or Programming.
Just b/c the queen of day time TV crap and pabulum touts getting rid of your Identity for a 'new and improved' model, doesn?t make it a healthy or wise thing to do!
Geez, I can hardly believe you are talking about dissolving peoples Identifies as a good thing! Its the stuff of nightmares; Orwell's big brother and animal farm come to life - and you like the sheep, or poor confused Boxer, think its a good thing!
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/des ... rate.shtml (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg9-desperate.shtml)
^explanation of the siminairs; a history lesson
http://www.rockypreps.com/desperate/sit ... ont-pg.htm (http://www.rockypreps.com/desperate/site-desperate/front-pg.htm)
^Account of wwasp programs by RockyMt. News
http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1 ... ture2.html (http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1998/02/cov_23feature2.html)
hard hitting artical
http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studymind ... lifton.htm (http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studymindctr/study_mindctr_lifton.htm)
Thought Reform
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brain ... ing19.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing19.html)
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BTW it is Seminars not siminars
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Heres another:
http://www.orwelltoday.com/ (http://www.orwelltoday.com/)
You up there - saying: success speaks for it self they have no need to hand out on meaningless bulletin boards.
Well, here you are! You and your pals.
Tell us now, since you've dropped in, at what point in the Program experience are these glowing accounts written? I know the answer; I just want you to think about it a bit.
Until you understand why the answer is so significant, Get on back to the Big Bull Shit board and tell everyone how wonderful they are, and make sure to how important it is to just Trust the Program!
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Dear Spring Creek, Thank you for doing such a great job with my son. I know that he is learning much as I have. It?s a true shame the majority of our population do not see the benefit of self-help and motivational seminars. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for y our dedication to making the world a better place.
Sincerely,
Scott
I want to thank you for making these programs possible. I have learned so much at Focus, that when I get home, I will be able to continue down this road I have started on. My sister, Terri is at your facility and I am very appreciative that she has the opportunity to learn all of this at such a young age. I really could have used something like this about seven years ago, when I was her age. Thank you once again for sharing your knowledge with me. Always,
Tracy
Dear Becky R., Trainers, and Facility Staff, Thank you for the time you have spent coaching, inspiring and challenging our daughter, Lisa. I cannot imagine taking on this task. Thank God, you can. The hours you have spent changing her life are greatly appreciated. I have seen so much growth and change in her already. I hold on to the belief that she will come back to me as a strong, confident, happy young lady. I just finished the Focus seminar. What a powerful weekend. I feel as if I have been reborn. It is a wonderful feeling. I can?t wait to share my experience with her.
Thanks again for caring so much about Lisa. God bless you.
Fondly,
Debbie
Dear Becky, Trainers, and Everyone at Spring Creek: Thank you for the time you?ve spent with Lisa. From the time we first talked to Becky, we knew that we were very lucky to have Lisa under your supervision. We know that it would tike a lot of work on her part, and you have willingly provided her with the training and tools. I look forward to our conversations every Tuesday. I can tell that you are all working very hard and are very dedicated to the children under your care. Rest assured that your work and thoughts, concerns and care are appreciated; and I am sure that you will reap rewards many times over! Thank you again very much
Best Regards,
Joe
To: Spring Creek Thank you for taking such good care of my son Ryan. His Family Rep. Jon is strong, honest, and loving man to have a role model for my son. There are no accidents as we have learned in our class. My son is blessed to be at Spring Creek.
Thank you,
Krista
Dear Cammy and Staff, I appreciate everything you do for all of these kids. I know it means so much not only to their parents or grandparents but also to them too. Doug told my parents that he was glad he got sent up there because he was not happy with his life, and it was nice to be able to change. It also means a lot to me because not I get to go through all these great seminars that make me feel like such a better person inside. I thank you greatly. Sincerely,
Alan
Dear Facilitators of Spring Creek Lodge, My name is Pat, I am a secure, trustworthy, caring man, and it is because of you. I want to thank you for being there for my family and me. As I finish up on Focus I know that Jac is in good hands. I rest assured that after completing this program she will emerge a contributing positive force. Your efforts and care are highly appreciated by Jac?s mother and I. Your commitment is felt all the way out here in California. It is felt by reading Jackie?s letters. I am happy because I know that in time my beautiful child will be home. Thank you!!!
Patrick
I deeply appreciate you giving yourselves to my daughter and all the children at Spring Creek. I have sent my precious gift, my daughter, to a place I have never been to. I trusted a group of people I have never met. That says a lot about each and every one of you. Any of the staff I have spoken to has projected warmth and genuine care to me, a person you have never met. My daughter has expressed ?I love ?. This person reminds me of you. That one is so funny.? She has not expressed any negative feelings. I know she is receiving warm and loving care. Be it up in her face or not. That is all warm loving care. I thank you from the bottom of my heart and all of me. I am committed to the program all the way. I thank you for helping and supporting my family thru this crisis. I acknowledge your jobs are not easy. Hugs to all. I look forward to meeting you. My experience is you are all warm loving beautiful people. Thank you. Love,
Kathy
The day we dropped our daughter off at Spring Creek was the hardest and easiest day in my life. My Daughter has been gone for six and a half months. This time has been the most difficult time in my life and at the same time Spring Creek saved my daughter?s life. Prior to her being there she wasn?t making healthy decisions and also very disrespectful to almost everyone around her. At the same time she pretty much disliked me (mom). Now at the present my daughter actually loves me again. Through out letters and myself emailing her there has been such a tremendous change in our relation ship. I am getting my baby back. As well before she left, her manners were horrible. She now has great manners and appreciates the little things. She used to be a taker now she gives us her love. It has been so rewarding watching all those changes. If it wasn?t for Spring Creek, one only knows!! So thank you for saving my daughter? The seminars as well have changed my life and me. So I owe my life you all. Special thanks to Janet R. for all her time and her commitment to our child and her charges. Mike L. as well has been a very positive influence to our child as well. I know there must be others, but I could go on and on.
Dona
To All of my Friends at Spring Creek: I would like to acknowledge you all for the gift you and the program are giving to my family. Right now you are giving to my son, Johnathan. But truelly you are giving to my entire family because one day John will come home to us and we will be able to continue out lives together. So I want to thank you all for the gift of my son and the future of my family. With love to you all,
Shannon
To All of Spring Creek: When I first needed help with my son, Bart, I found you facility. We took the chance with you, but from the time we dropped him off, we had a very comfortable feeling. All of the staff work together in a way that reflects you one common goal, to help Bart and all of the other kids to the best of your ability. At PC1 when I saw Bart, I could see most wonderful changes in him. He was on his way to becoming a different person, a caring, honest, open, hardworking kid. I truly believe that you are saving his life and I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart. I would also like to thank you for the opportunity of viewing a picture of Bart each week on the website. Bart?s smile gets bigger with each picture. Thanks again to all of you at Spring Creek. I love you all. Sincerely,
Kathleen
Dear Staff, Thank you for being committed to save my Grandson?s futures. I am sure that you hear times over and over, and maybe some of you know from experience the feeling of gratitude. Words can never be enough to express my love for you all, so I will tell you that you are in my prayers. And ask Gods Blessing on you for all your lives.
Geri
Dear Spring Creek Lodge Personnel, Thank you so much for having this wonderful system. Discovery and Focus, Visions, etc. I am now in Focus and want to express my undying appreciation for these programs, for us parents. The lessons I?ve learned about myself are endless and I?ll continue to Learn as I apply these principals to my life. What you?re doing is a wonderful thing and you should feel proud of yourselves for the accomplishments you make, with my child and the children of other parents. Thank you with Love,
Jon
Gentle People ? I want to share my gratitude to and with everyone at the facility. Today I have had the most amazing experience in Focus here in San Francisco. Thank you all so much for making this whole program available to my grandson and myself. The insights I have received about relationships have given me tools to work with and think about, applying in the future. I realize how I have contributed to the fact that my grandson is in your care. By being a giver ? which I thought was loving ? only created a resentful taker ? What a wake up call that was!! I cannot buy his love. More than anything in this world, I desire a loving relationship and an honest one with my grandson. You are making this possible and I thank you all from the bottom of my heart. Thank you ? Thank you. With Love and Blessings, Hazel I am strong, loving, spontaneous woman!!!
Hazel
Dear Staff, Four months ago I entrusted the life of my daughter into your hands. It was a leap of faith that was the hardest thing I ever did. I had to convince myself that she would be in better hands with you that in her own home. I realize that this could not happen if you didn?t care deeply about those who come to you in need. What you are doing for my daughter has no job description. It is an act of love and determination and commitment. I thank you for choosing this path in your life and I thank you for the love and caring that flows endlessly from your souls. Much love,
Annette
Dear Staff of Spring Creek, I would like to take this opportunity to express our deepest gratitude to all of you for your part in helping to save our son and family. Every moment that we think of him we thank god that there are loving, caring, people like you in this world. We get a great feeling of comfort knowing that he is surrounded each and every day, by those of you that have dedicated your lives to helping families like us, who had a desperate need to be saved. Every one of you that we have been in contact with has helped to reinforce our very difficult decision that we had to make in order to save our son?s life. We applaud each and every one of you for your immense dedication to our son and our family. Sincerely, Fran &
Fran & Deb
To the Staff at Spring Creek: I don?t think I can put into words how much I appreciate everything you have done for my son. The love you have shown him on a daily basis even though he has fought the love over and over again. I appreciate your strength; you constantly challenge my son to be the best Quinn that he can be. No matter how difficult this must be. I appreciate the time you have spent with my son, truly giving with this time, even when it has interrupted other activities and your own personal time. I cannot that you enough for all of this and more. I thank you for all the things you do that I don?t even know about. Thank you again,
Steve
Dear Spring Creek, On November 7, 2002, just two months and three weeks ago, I brought my first-born child to your facility. We flew in from Chicago, Spent the night in a local motel, and drove him to you at 11:00am. Giving him up to you, holding him in my arms to say goodbye, and then turning away, walking out the door, and driving off was without a doubt the most significantly, painful experience I have ever had in my life, yet in that moment of deep pain and despair, I knew it was also the most profound, empowering moment of my life. I am out to save my child?s life and you have provided the vehicle though which I can accomplish my intention. My experience of gratitude towards you and your staff is so huge, it seems impossible. My child is safe. My child is completely surrounded by a staff that cares deeply, so deeply in fact they spend says of just ?hanging out? or having meaningful conversations with my child. I fully acknowledge that both our son's and our families? journey will be filled with many challenges and will indeed be on going, yet you have brought a grand new sense of hope into our families life. We simply cannot wait to experience, as a whole united family, the extreme joys to come. Yours in deep gratitude, Megan A.
Megan
Wendy and I would like to express our gratitude to each of the staff for the many ways you help each day, support, nurture, and look after our daughter Lindsay. As you must know, she is a precious child of God and precious to us in so many ways. We did a lot of research, as well as praying before we sent our daughter to your school. Lindsay has been there since October 10th and we remain impressed and comfortable that Lindsay is in great hands and where she needs to be. Although we miss her, we know that she needed a change in her environment in order that her life might be saved. We are encouraged by the progress she I making, but most of all committed to seeing the program though to the end. We will be visiting Spring Creek for PC-1 in early October and look forward to seeing the facility. We will be reinforcing our exit plan, which will outlive the fact that Lindsay will not be able to return to our/her home unless she completes the program. (She turns 18 on April 21) Thank you for all your hard work and dedication. It must be quite amazing to deal with so many teens with so many issues, and quite a blessing to see so many lives transformed. We are still working on our issues! Sincerely, John &
John & Wendy
I would like to thank everyone at Spring Creek Lodge for giving my son, David , the love and guidance he has needed over the last eight months. I am looking forward to seeing all of you at PC-1 the first week of February 2003. Until then keep unfolding all of our children.
Wade
I now realize that the staff and students at Spring Creek Lodge are a gift to my family. Thank you for being there for me. Emily has graduated from high school and regained her enthusiasm for learning and educational accomplishments. She has tackled chemical dependency and she has stated that she does not intend to use drugs. She has graduated from Discovery, Focus, and Accountability and I know through personal experience how intimidating and rewarding these seminars can be.
Tom
Dear Staff, We are so grateful that God lead us down a path to find Spring Creek Lodge for our Donnie. In the two short months that our son has been there, Raoul and staff have given Donnie enough ?tools? to start discovering who he is and awe have started to see the Donnie we used to know. He is writing words and feelings of love that we haven?t heard in a long time. We are always encouraged by our weekly talks with Raoul and appreciate everything that is done for our son. The WWASP has opened our eyes to being able to once again have a life as a family that we though was no longer possible. Thank you for giving us the way for Donnie and us to grow ?together.? Much love, Don &
Don & Sue
Dear Spring Creek, I want to express to you my appreciation and gratitude to you in your care of Heather and Liz. I am their future step-dad and see such great potential in both of them. I thank you for assisting them in realizing how wonderful their lives really is and how much potential they have for greatness. You are truly a blessing that I will cherish in my heart forever. I know that your efforts will assist them in making the right choices. I am too working the program and know I am blessed for it. Thank you,
Gai
To the Staff of Spring Creek, Everything that I experience from your facility speaks of excellence and caring. You have a very important part of me in your midst, and I know I can count on you to give him everything he needs to be successful in life. The very first experience of anyone with Spring Creek was excellent and the whole facility seems to have the same commitment. Everything you do speaks ACCOUNTABILITY. Thank you for loving my son and caring for him. He now has every opportunity to succeed. Sincerely, Keith &
Keith & Susan
To: The Staff at Spring Creek Lodge To let you know how important it is to finally find a group of people who will not give up on my girls. I would not give up, even when their school said there was nothing they could do to help me through my troubles. I said that I will not give up, and in my anger ran across World Wide. When I called after my computer chat with Todd, I know then that the girls were going. The remarkable progress, I am seeing in their letters home, the regular appointments with their group and family leaders that they are working so hard. I have finally found something that is not just a fix for the today. Thank you so much.
Sue
Dear Friend at Spring Creek Lodge, Words cannot adequately express the gratitude we feel for thje love and support your offer our son. We sent Justin to you because we felt unable to meet his needs and we know you are there for him ? fulfilling those needs. We know he is safe with you. We are thankful for your support and him in his quest. Although we only deal with Mary ? and we are grateful for your support of Justin and us (our family), we are equally grateful to all of the SCL staff and you each are equally essential to the whole program. With our Love and Thanks, Ed &
Ed & Caroline
The year 2002 was a particularly dark one. Sarah continued on an almost daily basis to challenge her mother and me. There were the familiar disappointments of broken promises; failure in school and things went down hill from there. Drugs, irresponsible friends who could care less about each other, refusal to respond to parental standards and refusal to even come home for extended periods made her mother and me realize we could no longer let Sarah risk so much --- her life. We researched a number of schools and programs, but through the recommendations of World Wide and for Spring Creek Lodge, in particular, we felt we had found an environment where good help was available. Upon Sarah?s arrival we experienced a small circle of light that pierced the darkness we had been experiencing. We knew in the thirteen weeks Sarah has been at Spring Creek, that small circle of light has opened into a full field of hope for Sarah and our family. We see and hear of Sarah?s success & failures and recognize that both are valuable. Sarah is learning that both success & failure are hers and hers alone. When I a was an adolescent I experienced many of the problems she has gone through. The solution then was military school. I am so profoundly grateful to Spring Creek Lodge for the significant difference it provides compared to the military schools of the sixties. Sarah will emerge with a strong sense of accountability, responsibility and most of all how to love and support herself. With that, she will be able to love, support, and provide service to others. She may no know it yet, but these are her greatest strengths along with her leadership qualities. I thank Spring Creek Lodge for awakening her to her beauty and strength.
David
Dear Staff of Spring Creek, Even though I don?t know so many, even most of you through person experience, I thank you for giving your time and talents to care for my son, John. The conversations I have had with Raoul and Sherri have shown me how much you are committed to having healthy relationships and you are doing all you can to assist in that process. Thank you for being there and allowing yourselves to be the instruments of growth for John. I have been so completely touched and healed by my connection with the Program. May God bless each one of you!
Becky
Dear Spring Creek Staff, Hi, my name is Mark we have our son, Thomas, in the Respect family at you facility. We have been extremely happy with all areas of WWASP programs we have come into contact with. As my wife and I are now going through our ?Focus? seminar at SeaTac, we have been invited to let you know how much we appreciate you all and how fortunate we are that the kind of training you all provide is a godsend. It is so sad when the family unit breaks down and our most prized gifts don?t get the right kind of attention. We believe he is getting that right kind of attention now, thanks to you. Thanks to the instruction and training we have received as his parents in to only ?saving? the marriage, but helping us to be seeking excellence. Most importantly for Thomas, the same program he is receiving for you will continue when he gets home. We expect great things in out family life while better prepared to hold all of us in it accountable. Thank you again from the bottom of our hearts. I don?t plan on waiting till prompted by a seminar to make my gratitude known next time. Love,
Mark
I am so impressed with the staff at Spring Creek Lodge. All of you are dedicated, loving people. Tyler could not be in a better place. Tyler is who he is today because of your love and caring. I know how hard your job is and how much extra time you put into making this happen. You do a great joy and what a gift you have given my family. We sent you a sick child; you not only sent back a healthy child but you helped in healing the family. You don?t just work with our children but you work with mother, father, stepmother, stepfather, brothers, sisters, grandparents and I am and sure aunts and uncle?s in some cases. WOW! I want you to stop and pat yourself of the back. It is huge, what you do. I cannot guess how many lives you touch. I am sure there is lives you help heal you do not know of. You truly have chosen the teaching profession. I also see all of you as Healers. So what can I say, but Thank You? You, all of you, are a blessing. Love,
Chalene
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On 2004-01-03 16:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
I think you will find that these successfull families devote time and engergy to positive activites and do not have time to go to anonmous boards and post stories, not to mention new found suceess with their families and with a WWASP program but also in work, politics etc, success brings success. Plus success speaks for it self they have no need to hand out on meaningless bulletin boards. Plus they share their positive experinces I'm sure within their school board which are private boards.
I think you'll find that, as soon as the kid feels safe from getting sent back, they'll denounce those glowing testimonials if you ask them. That's why those boards are kept private. If they let just anybody post to them, why then they'd lose the false appearance of all these happy, fulfiled and grateful graduates.Legalizing drugs would simultaneously reduce the amount of crime and raise the quality of law enforcement. Can you conceive of any other measure that would accomplish so much to promote law and order?
--Economist Milton Friedman
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***I think you will find that these successfull families devote time and engergy to positive activites and do not have time to go to anonmous boards and post stories, not to mention new found suceess with their families and with a WWASP program but also in work, politics etc, success brings success.***
What's your story? How is it that you are drawn to "anonymous, meaningless, bulletin boards? How many of those parents know such venues exist?
***Plus success speaks for it self they have no need to hand out on meaningless bulletin boards. Plus they share their positive experinces I'm sure within their school board which are private boards.***
Wasn't refering to success stories, but the intimate details of how W programs/seminars arrive at changing people. You continue to post articles, stating that "it's like this or that". Why not the genuine article. Not success stories, but details. Like, Phase One: Can not speak without permission. Can not look at self in the mirror. Can not look at or speak to the opposite sex. Can not have contact with the outside world including your family. Will have to earn such basic necessities as toileties. Will be punished with OP for minor infractions. Will be punished for crying. Will be punished for empathizing with someone who's crying. blah, blah, blah.
I'm imagining we'll have to continue to rely on "unsuccessful" ex-inmates for those details. THOSE details are what need to be evaluated. What is success? You could subject a kid ECT until they were a vegetable. Some might consider that success too, because the kid is no longer a "problem".
Dr. P is a supporter of rehab programs, and he's a behavioralist, but I've also seen him crawl all over a parent for spanking their child. I wonder how many of the daytime TV gurus would continue to support the warehousing industry if they really knew?
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Oh, and one question. I've heard that parents and students are often required, as part of their 'therapy' or seminar, to write letters like these. Anyone w/ firsthand experience able to confirm or refute that?
The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.
-- Patrick Henry
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Success comes to those who are willing to make changes and work hard. Any one can be a critic, but it takes work, positive attitude to change. Be all you can be. :tup:
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I resent you advertising your program on this forum with that lengthy list of testimonials. It wasn't enough to post a link? If Scott, Tracey, Debbie, Joe, and the rest want to come here and share their stories, that's one thing. It's quiet another for an anon poster to put that up. This thread was for serious discussion and debate, not an invitation to advertise and recruit for an organization under the guise of discussion.
I'd like to see a poll on this one.
1) Leave the link. Delete the testimonials.
2) Delete the link and testimonials.
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The successfull positive parents work on building bridges seeking to help other improve. I have seen many parents that have experinced success come to these boards, why do they not hang out here? They don't want to waste their time, they would rather build and enjoy more success, they would focus their energies on past broken relatinships and seek to restore, they do not hang out in blameville or gloomtown, they pro-active parents and teens who are seeking to do more. They know the same people will be here or another forum with the same issues years from now. These successfull people do not focus on the negative or complain about missed opertunites they look at the next opertunity and take advantage.
Cheers. :grin: :grin:
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The reason I posted the magazine article link (I'm not the anon that posted testimonials) is that there is NO way to post a seminar experience. The only way to know is to go yourself. The information on each seminar is posted on the program website. I wonder how many could actually see it for what it is: personal growth, not brainwashing. You seem to think that the "program" is responsible for a person's change...WRONG. Each person is responsibile for change, or not.
Someone posted on losing a current identity as wrong. That's pretty surfacy stuff. No one will change their core, but change is a part of life. Are you saying change is a bad thing? What does that tell your children about change? No one is going to change unless they are truly open to it. I've known people in my workplace that couldn't stand computers when they came in, now they barely remember what it was like before that..just a surfacy comparison.
Oprah rocks! If she started a "program" for kids, it would mirror wwasp...for sure. That's an awesome thought!
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Please, no flooding or spamming.
[ This Message was edited by: Antigen on 2004-01-03 17:34 ]
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I don't support the labeling of kids. What's significant about this study is the figures. It is an option for families who would rather keep their kids at home and I bet it would be more effective and less expensive.
http://additudemag.com/ourkids.asp?DEPT ... &SUB_NO=22 (http://additudemag.com/ourkids.asp?DEPT_NO=302&SUB_NO=22)
Excerpts:
Research published in the June 2002 issue of the journal Medical Health Services Research says that sending difficult children to a boarding school may not be as effective as keeping the family together and providing a family preservation program. Psychologist Linda A. Wilmshurst of Texas Woman's University compared children enrolled in a residential program with children who stayed at home.
Residential treatment is typically the last resort for over-stressed families. For example, children in this study also had emotional and behavioral disorders (EBD), conduct disorders and oppositional behaviors that further complicated their AD/HD symptoms. About one-third of the children in the study also had general anxiety, separation anxiety, or depression, or some combination of all three. Almost all of the participants came from low-income, single-parent families.
Almost two-thirds (63%) of the children who stayed with their families showed a reduction of clinical symptoms for AD/HD, general anxiety and depression. Only 11% of the children who participated in the residential program showed similar improvement.
Wilmshurst theorizes that fear may have been a factor. "Removal from the home may have served to exacerbate existing levels of anxiety, resulting in excessive worry about their future, concern about past behavior, and a heightened awareness of the potential of removal again," she said. She also speculates that at least some of the difference may have been caused by interaction with other troubled children at the residential facility.
Wilmshurst believes that behavioral treatment was beneficial for several reasons, including the fact that children and parents spent more time together and were given practical help from trained therapists. Previous research supports the use of cognitive or behavioral methods in the treatment of ADHD. Wilmshurst refers to the work of Russell Barkley, Ph.D. and others in her article. (See ADDitude's related article Parent Training Improves Teen Treatment Success for more on Barkley's research in this area.)
Families in the family preservation group received much more than the standard one hour per week of family counseling. For the study, therapists trained in family preservation offered treatment in the home and were available for the families 12 hours per day for a 12 week period. Treatment was targeted to specific problems. For example, if a parent was having difficulty managing a child at breakfast, the therapist would schedule a visit at that time to observe interactions and assist the parents in defining specific problem behaviors and suggesting alternatives. Unfortunately, such optimal treatment is not often the case in the real world.
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On 2004-01-03 16:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/des ... rate.shtml (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg9-desperate.shtml)
^explanation of the siminairs; a history lesson
http://www.rockypreps.com/desperate/sit ... ont-pg.htm (http://www.rockypreps.com/desperate/site-desperate/front-pg.htm)
^Account of wwasp programs by RockyMt. News
http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1 ... ture2.html (http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1998/02/cov_23feature2.html)
hard hitting artical
http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studymind ... lifton.htm (http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studymindctr/study_mindctr_lifton.htm)
Thought Reform
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brain ... ing19.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing19.html)
"
These first articles seem to be from 1998/99. ??
So it's okay to post links for things that are unrelated to wwasp programs, but Deborah wonders why something significant to the process is posted?
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To the Anon posting testimonials. PLEASE begin a new topic. I love reading the testimonials, but not on this particular thread. Just a suggestion. :wink:
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On 2004-01-03 17:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
The successfull positive parents work on building bridges seeking to help other improve. I have seen many parents that have experinced success come to these boards, why do they not hang out here?
They seem to get very upset and often abusive whenever people disagree with them. That's why TOUGHLOVE hategroop meetings and lists are always very private. It solves the problem of having people around who might question the authorized dogma.
Folks, that's the bigger reason, in my opinion, for the extream measures to keep outsiders out. It's not so much that they couldn't sweep a few things under the rug for the duration of the visit. It's that they don't want to remind the kids that there are other people w/ other ideas in the world.Sacred cows make the best hamburger.
Mark Twain
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Lets get real, majority of the people who enroll their son or daughter in a BMP allready are past the urgent state, they allready tried sending their kid to live with relatives, counselling, you name it. They are dealing with an epdemic, most people do not say "Oh my teen is acting up a little today, I think I will spend a couple of grand a month to help him" They are way past that point. They are dealing with an epedemic that is a matter of life or death.
We got a lot of experts here, I would like to see the sceintfic results of any of their theroies, or any of their degrees would be nice to see as well, or even a number of years of experince working with struggling teens. :eek:
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Ginger - wwasp does not want to keep anyone out. In fact, they've invited many to tour, to meet parents, graduates, attend seminars, etc. Tim Weiner attended a support group and chose to not report anything that he saw and heard, other than "change is painful" as quoted by a mother. WHen you youall get it that it's not some secret society hellbent on thinking "one" way, but families that know they are responsible for their choices and the consequences, either good or not?
I don't feel that wwasp has a bad reputation. That bad reputation came from the media and a few parents that didn't get the desired results.
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On 2004-01-03 16:57:00, Antigen wrote:
"Oh, and one question. I've heard that parents and students are often required, as part of their 'therapy' or seminar, to write letters like these. Anyone w/ firsthand experience able to confirm or refute that? The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.
-- Patrick Henry
"
In my Discovery seminar we were all given stationary to write letters of appreciation and were instructed to give them to the staffers and they would be sent collectively to the programs. We were to put our child's name and facility name at the top. I also staffed Discovery with Bill and Focus with Joyce in the Spring of 2001. I handed out stationary at the Discovery seminar that I staffed for the same purpose and heard the same instructions. I still have my notes from the Focus I staffed and the following is on one of my notecards "collect letters first, check child's name & facility name".
I am not sure what the teens are required to do, but I know that one assignment at the parent seminars is to write a letter of appreciation. And any parent who has attended seminars knows how important homework is...
Judy
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I vote with Deb to delete the testimonials. I wanted to comment on that post, but she has put the objection far better than I could.
other anon:
Change is sometimes good; and sometimes not - wouldn't you say?
You posted a link and talked about how some people fight the Dissolving of their Identities; not working to change a bad habit.
Isn't it more to the point that you can't talk about Discovery, Focus ect b/c you have sworn not to?
You understand, by its very nature and purpose, the subjects/victims don't realize they are being brain washed, don't you?
You understand, once your identity has been dissolved, they can put in most anything they please - and you'll be delighted with the result.
This is a very dangerous little game your playing here - this Large Group Awareness Training; which is just a new age version of the Korean method of brain washing.
I agree with you that Oprah would probably just Love a tame version of Discovery; and I don't doubt "her" program would look a lot like what you Think "the Program" is; but as for the reality of the Program - No, I don't think she would approve; and she would probably want to throw a bunch of folks in jail. She just loves new age pop psychology (talk about shallow) but she don't care much for brutality and neglect.
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On 2004-01-03 17:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Lets get real, majority of the people who enroll their son or daughter in a BMP allready are past the urgent state, they allready tried sending their kid to live with relatives, counselling, you name it. They are dealing with an epdemic, most people do not say "Oh my teen is acting up a little today, I think I will spend a couple of grand a month to help him" They are way past that point. They are dealing with an epedemic that is a matter of life or death.
I'm confident that you believe this is true. But it is just not so. These people may be convinced that they're saving the kids' lives. But the kids lives are not usually in anywhere near the kind of danger outside of these programs as inside of them.
If you want longterm proof of efficacy or lack thereof, talk to us! That's why we hang out here so that we can tell you of our experience. As a group, Program survivors probably read a whole lot more friends' obituaries than any group under the age of about 75. And most of us are only in our thirties. Those olddruggiefriends they tried to convince us would be our undoing? They generally fall into the "other" category, where they won't start losing a lot of peers till they're much older.
We got a lot of experts here, I would like to see the sceintfic results of any of their theroies, or any of their degrees would be nice to see as well, or even a number of years of experince working with struggling teens. :eek: "
No, since you're advocating this program and encouraging people to pay for it, why don't you show me the studies that prove it's safe and effective?
In war, the stronger overcomes the weaker. In business, the stronger imparts strength to the weaker.
--Frederic Bastiat
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Good Point annon,
To go one step further, the WWASP seminars are about learning about your self and willing to listen and take feed back from other people's perscpective. Maybe some of the successfull parents get frustrated , however I think the vast majority are very open to what others think or feel and let them have their own experince. The successfull parents have experinced success and want to go were they can help other experince success.
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Did you not see the Dr. Phil version of the seminars as shown on Oprah? Same process, different people.
Sworn to secrecy is only about the experience...why hurt someone else's experience by sharing your own? Each person gets out of them what they want to. Why ask what it's all about? Anyone can walk out if they don't like what they are feeling. I will ask you to stop equating your son's experience at whatever program he was in with what wwasp is about. They're not all the same - but I also know that you sharing your experience is important. Please just clarify you have no experience of wwasp.
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On 2004-01-03 17:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ginger - wwasp does not want to keep anyone out. In fact, they've invited many to tour, to meet parents, graduates, attend seminars, etc. Tim Weiner attended a support group and chose to not report anything that he saw and heard, other than "change is painful" as quoted by a mother. WHen you youall get it that it's not some secret society hellbent on thinking "one" way, but families that know they are responsible for their choices and the consequences, either good or not?
I don't feel that wwasp has a bad reputation. That bad reputation came from the media and a few parents that didn't get the desired results. "
Uhhh... thanks. But I was refering to those private fora you keep mentioning.
And you are wrong about the media and a few parents creating this bad reputation for you. You simply reject all criticizm as false and tell yourself there is none. Buddy, you're washed, man! Snap out of it! ::bangin:: I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
--Clarence Darrow
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Yes, I have read some of his books and watch his show, he uses a lot of the seminar proccess and techniques that is why he is successful, because people are able to have a new experince and make changes in their lives.
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"I'm confident that you believe this is true. But it is just not so. These people may be convinced that they're saving the kids' lives. But the kids lives are not usually in anywhere near the kind of danger outside of these programs as inside of them.
If you want longterm proof of efficacy or lack thereof, talk to us! That's why we hang out here so that we can tell you of our experience. As a group, Program survivors probably read a whole lot more friends' obituaries than any group under the age of about 75. And most of us are only in our thirties. Those olddruggiefriends they tried to convince us would be our undoing? They generally fall into the "other" category, where they won't start losing a lot of peers till they're much older."
Wheres the degrees? Where the scientific data? Wheres the experince?
:???: :???: :???:
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Deb, These two paragraphs interests me the most. I'm all about figuring out why these places are in demand these days.
On 2004-01-03 17:26:00, Deborah wrote:
Residential treatment is typically the last resort for over-stressed families. For example, children in this study also had emotional and behavioral disorders (EBD), conduct disorders and oppositional behaviors that further complicated their AD/HD symptoms. About one-third of the children in the study also had general anxiety, separation anxiety, or depression, or some combination of all three. Almost all of the participants came from low-income, single-parent families.
Wilmshurst theorizes that fear may have been a factor. "Removal from the home may have served to exacerbate existing levels of anxiety, resulting in excessive worry about their future, concern about past behavior, and a heightened awareness of the potential of removal again," she said. She also speculates that at least some of the difference may have been caused by interaction with other troubled children at the residential facility.
Yes, I would agree with those theries. Additionally, I can tell you from firsthand experience that fear of removal, fear of mysterious personality altering "treatments" and constant scrutiny and worry by the crazy adults can also contribute significantly to all of the symptoms these programs promise to cure.
It is a vicious circle.The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.
George Washington
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Ginger - I don't reject the criticism, honestly. Those that have a bad experience truly believe it, just like those that have a good experience believe it. I think I said way back that humans work for this program. Humans make mistakes. I personally can't say I believe that certain people were abused just because they said they were. I know so many that have told me they were not abused, but again, it's heresay. My relative was never hurt or brainwashed into thinking what they wanted him to think. He had a choice!
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On 2004-01-03 17:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
Wheres the degrees? Where the scientific data? Wheres the experince?
Good question! Where are the degrees and scientific data showing that this treatment method is safe or effective?
Your insisting that I prove that the Program is unsafe and ineffective is just rediculous. You know very well I've not been in a WWASP program. However, I have read a lot of different accounts from a lot of different people, many of them very well credentialed, who tell me that it's neither safe nor beneficial. It seems to be very effective at slavemaking. That's about it.
When an innocent Californian millionaire gets killed by a drug squad
trying to seize his house with a bogus search warrant, people better ask themselves if they really want to turn their cops into money-makers.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder
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Ginger - I hope you're not talking about well-credentialed people being on this board. I think we're all just stating our experiences and knowledge. From what I read from you, you're anti_ Dr. Phil, anti- Oprah, anti-Tony Robbins, or anyone that sees there's a whole lot more in the world outside of our little boxes. Not one of these people tell us HOW to think, and if we don't think that way, then we're wrong. You are not wrong in what you say. It's valid to me, for whatever it's worth.
I just don't see where I should discount a program that has thousands of people that have benefited in a positive way. I'm supposed to fear wwasp because a few people on this board say I should?
If you can weed out those that have an agenda against wwasp, just wwasp, then I might at least listen with an open heart. So far, I've not been able to weed out those with the agenda. Care to enlighten me?
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On 2004-01-03 18:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ginger - I hope you're not talking about well-credentialed people being on this board.
You might actually be surprised at who some of our readers are. But I was really refering to some of the medical journal authors Deborah has quoted recently and to people like Singer and Lifton.
I think we're all just stating our experiences and knowledge. From what I read from you, you're anti_ Dr. Phil, anti- Oprah, anti-Tony Robbins, or anyone that sees there's a whole lot more in the world outside of our little boxes.
Well, you might define that group that way. I would define them as people who advocate for better living through dissolusion of our identities.
Not one of these people tell us HOW to think, and if we don't think that way, then we're wrong. You are not wrong in what you say. It's valid to me, for whatever it's worth.
You're trippin', dude! That's exactly what all of these people do for a living.
I just don't see where I should discount a program that has thousands of people that have benefited in a positive way. I'm supposed to fear wwasp because a few people on this board say I should?
No. But you should not turn over your will to them. You should not trust and believe them unconditionally and without question. If 100 kids say they were tortured w/ physical pain, deprivation of basic physical necessities (such as adequate sleep) and in other, subtle ways, then you should not assume they're all making it up just becase the people selling the Program say they are.
If you can weed out those that have an agenda against wwasp, just wwasp, then I might at least listen with an open heart. So far, I've not been able to weed out those with the agenda. Care to enlighten me? "
Buddy, you've come to the right place. The only people around here who think WWASP is the only problem are those who are already under suit by them. All the rest of us pretty much agree that
1) These programs are not just examples of a good concept poorly implimented. The concept itself can be very harmful and tends to foster the kinds of abuses we're hearing about.
2) Not so many of us, but I think a growing number understand that the people who operate these programs believe in what they're doing. They're lying to themselves about it and believe that what they tell others is the truth. But most of them have never seriously examined the evidence. That's sort of frowned upon in Program culture.
Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.
--
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Anon,
Answer this hypothetical question.
Would you continue to support the program if all the allegations of abuse/mistreatment were proven to be true?
Please don't respond with a question or with something irrelevant to the question. Just a yes or no will suffice.
I'm sure you're privy to the allegations, but in case you're not, I'd be happy to search around and compile a fairly comprehensive list. The point being, that you understand the question you are responding to.
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Antigen wrote:"
No. But you should not turn over your will to them. You should not trust and believe them unconditionally and without question. If 100 kids say they were tortured w/ physical pain, deprivation of basic physical necessities (such as adequate sleep) and in other, subtle ways, then you should not assume they're all making it up just becase the people selling the Program say they are. "
Antigen - OMG! Do you think we're all stupid parents that will blindly believe unconditionally, without question? OMG! Again!
You are only seeing what you want to see. There's a lot of layers that you aren't seeing. I never believed anyone unconditionally or without reservation, or questions - ever! That included my own son, who I love with all my being, but was so blatant about mistruths, that I always made sure of what was truth and what was fiction. I was never lied to be a staff person, not ever, and my son can back that up.
What is sleep deprivation? Shit, I was sleep deprived in a much worse way when he ran away and I didn't know where he was. I lost sleep, lots of sleep because I cared enough about him to worry about him. I don't for a minute think he was sleep deprived in his program. Neither does he, other than wanting to sleep until noon. When I was a teen, I spent summers with an aunt in the midwest, on a farm. I was up before dawn, raked horseshit, fed the animals, befoer I even ate breakfast, worked some more and was dog tired by noon, but I kept going - I was in bed by 9 pm, but not before I wrote in my diary.
It really is much the same in his program. Not up before dawn, but by 6;30 am, full daily schedule, and time for reflection writing and writig home in the evenings. Yes, I guess for a teen, that would be considered sleep deprived.
Are you saying there are 100 kids on this forum saying they were tortured. Direct me there please. I see a few "parents" posting of their misery, which I can't say is fact or fiction. I also can't see, like the other anon, who is from the PURE camp spouting their crap, and who is genuinely sincere.
Do you resist change in all areas of your life? I began to enjoy things I was afraid of when I tried on new things, new ways of thinking, getting out of the proverbial comfort zone. FEAR (of change), the worst four letter word. I don't choose to live in a world of "what if's" I choose to live in a world of "what's next?"
Please - just don't tell me how I should feel or think. There's a whole world of possibilities that are still waiting to be discovered.
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Do you have custody?
BTW all they are is allegations, wheres the proof?
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On 2004-01-03 22:18:00, Deborah wrote:
"
Anon,
Answer this hypothetical question.
Would you continue to support the program if all the allegations of abuse/mistreatment were proven to be true?
Please don't respond with a question or with something irrelevant to the question. Just a yes or no will suffice.
I'm sure you're privy to the allegations, but in case you're not, I'd be happy to search around and compile a fairly comprehensive list. The point being, that you understand the question you are responding to."
Deborah - I don't think this was for me, as I just came on here, but absolutely NOT. I would not support the program if the allegations were true. I agree with the "humans" thing. If a staff person intentionally hurt a student, I would make sure they were fired, in whatever way I could. I would not want to shut down the schools for the mistake of one person, however. This is almost pointless to debate as at this point it's heresay, and most likely from a child or children with an agenda of wanting to get out from living with rules, or to get back to their "old life." But maybe not. I will not get sucked into he said/she said until something is absolutely proven in a court of law. Just as clarificaiton, ALL of the BM's or RTC's have the kids saying the same things about them, don't lay it all on wwasp programs, please.
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There's not a thing in the world wrong with change. No one is arguing that. It's the method in which change comes about.
So you "chose" (in your terms) to be sleep deprived. Those who allege sleep deprivation did not choose it. It is forced upon them as part of the breaking down process.
Can you entertain the possibility that your son may have been one of the more "compliant" participants, therefore missed out on some of the specific abuses alleged by others?
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Deborah - My son did make a choice, by his behavior and my inability to deal with his choices. He chose, inadvertantly, to attend a program. He was not compliant for at least 7 months. He's a headstrong kid, still is, just in a healthier way. I really think you are trying to get me to say he was abused, or your definition of abuse. Not! He has said that he was abusive to the staff, verbally, on many occasions. He lost points and priviledges. Had he been physically abusive, he may have been sent to observation or restrained, but didn't become physically abusive. What would you expect the staff to do if he were? If another kid was physically violent I would expect the staff to keep that kid from hurting my son and others. If they kid was continually causing physical harm, they are told to leave. These are not programs for physically violent kids. Any other questions?
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Deborah - one more thing. What experience do you have with the "methods of change" at a wwasp school? Breakdown? Never heard that one before.
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I'm not trying to get you to say your son was abused. Leave him out of it.
I asked if you'd continue to support the program if the allegations of abuse were proven.
I noticed you couldn't answer the question without suggesting that abuse is an ocassional occurence.
The allegations, which is what we're discussing, do not support that position, but rather indicate that the BM methods employed on a daily basis are abusive. If you aren't interested in discussing the he said/ she said allegations, then why are you in this discussion, except to defend.
If we only looked at the one common factor to all programs, the isolation/ incarceration of teens who are prevented from communicating with the outside world, they would be considered by many to be abusive. I hear that you don't choose to see that as abuse; but rather a consequence to a child for distressing their parent.
You can twist up the words anyway you choose, but your son did not consciously choose to attend a program- unless he asked to be incarcerated. Given the common definition of choose: to select freely and after consideration; which appears to conflict with the program defintion, I seriously doubt that he chose. I'm more inclined to imagine that his behavior troubled you and you chose to incarcerate him until he was making choices that pleased you.
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On 2004-01-03 22:18:00, Deborah wrote:
This is almost pointless to debate as at this point it's heresay, and most likely from a child or children with an agenda of wanting to get out from living with rules, or to get back to their "old life."
No, you're dead wrong here. Much of this info is comming from young adults who are no longer in danger of being shipped back to the program. Or friends of kids who have been through one or more of them. There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the enemy.
--George Washington
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
[ This Message was edited by: Antigen on 2004-01-03 23:40 ]
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Deborah,
Are you making allegations of abuse?
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Why can't you answer yes or no? It's a very simple question.
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Look who's talking,
Why can't you answer a simple no or yes question-
Same to ya-
Are you making allegations of abuse?
Do you have custody?
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And now you have left the "debate" this thread was intended for and moved into diversion tactics. I'm going to bed on this note: I feel more qualified than you to determine what constitutes "help" and what is and isn't appropriate treatment of minors. Based on the numerous allegations in W and other programs, I believe a caring parent would err on the side of caution and find resources within their community. We will never agree because you have a vested interest in the continuation of your method of choice and the violation of teens rights and humanity. There's nothing further to debate.
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http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/des ... rate.shtml (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg9-desperate.shtml)
^explanation of the siminairs; a history lesson
http://www.rockypreps.com/desperate/sit ... ont-pg.htm (http://www.rockypreps.com/desperate/site-desperate/front-pg.htm)
^Account of wwasp programs by RockyMt. News
http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1 ... ture2.html (http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1998/02/cov_23feature2.html)
hard hitting artical
http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studymind ... lifton.htm (http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studymindctr/study_mindctr_lifton.htm)
Thought Reform
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brain ... ing19.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing19.html)
These first articles seem to be from 1998/99. ??
So it's okay to post links for things that are unrelated to wwasp programs, but Deborah wonders why something significant to the process is posted?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Every one of these links is directly related to the program.
As for your quibbling about dates; if anything has changed since then, I?d like to know what. From my recent experance, it is still exactly so.
AND, I posted links - not the whole long artical; as you did with the greatful under duress statements. That was just plain rude and a waste of space.
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On 2004-01-03 23:38:00, Deborah wrote:
"
I'm not trying to get you to say your son was abused. Leave him out of it.
I asked if you'd continue to support the program if the allegations of abuse were proven.
I noticed you couldn't answer the question without suggesting that abuse is an ocassional occurence.
The allegations, which is what we're discussing, do not support that position, but rather indicate that the BM methods employed on a daily basis are abusive. If you aren't interested in discussing the he said/ she said allegations, then why are you in this discussion, except to defend.
If we only looked at the one common factor to all programs, the isolation/ incarceration of teens who are prevented from communicating with the outside world, they would be considered by many to be abusive. I hear that you don't choose to see that as abuse; but rather a consequence to a child for distressing their parent.
You can twist up the words anyway you choose, but your son did not consciously choose to attend a program- unless he asked to be incarcerated. Given the common definition of choose: to select freely and after consideration; which appears to conflict with the program defintion, I seriously doubt that he chose. I'm more inclined to imagine that his behavior troubled you and you chose to incarcerate him until he was making choices that pleased you.
"
Deborah - I do believe that Ginger asked that attacks be left out of this thread.
I don't get what you are saying about no contact with the outside world? What program was your child in that he/she didn't have uncensored contact via letters in the beginning? I also get that you did not agree to the admission and I can emphasize with you wanting to have more than written contact, to be more in control. For the majority of parents, however, letters are the only way in the beginning. It is a process to rebuild healthy communication. The letters in a wwasp school are NOT censored. The kids can write anything their hearts desire, whether nice, or not. The family rep also has contact on a weekly basis with the parents. Phone calls follow with your child when it is earned, yes earned, which I agree with, then visits/seminars/off grounds/home passes. I don't consider this process abusive in any way.
I see that another anon said her son chose the program by his behavior. Right on. No, not consciously, but actions have consequences, and that parent obviously loved her child enough to not lose him to the legal system or other destructive options. I see that she/he said her kid was headstrong, doesn't sound like it changed his core personality, just helped him use that quality in a more positive way.
You are assuming way too much - on the negative side. The assumption that a child is admitted because he/she doesn't please the parent is not in the majority, nor do I feel this ANON is a control freak.
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Here is a sampling of how most parents feel about the so called "smoke" that this small group tries to create-
Parents Outraged at Bogus Smoke
THE FOLLOWING ARE SOME OF THE E-MAILS SENT TO THE WORLD WIDE ASSOCIATION OF SPECIALTY PROGRAMS AND SCHOOLS IN RESPONSE TO KEN KAY'S LETTER.
I am a medical doctor board certified in three specialties. I have published articles in numerous peer-reviewed publications, and I have a son age 16 at Tranquility Bay.
My son spent two years in another program in California before being transferred to Tranquility Bay. He has progressed tremendously in his behavior and his studies since coming to Tranquility Bay. I have visited the facility five times, visiting first before placing him there, each time staying four to five days, and speaking to other students and staff liberally.
Your reporter is fortunate that he works for the New York Times. His article would never pass the muster in a peer-reviewed process. His investigation was incomplete and though he attempted somewhat weakly to give a balanced view, those of us who have been editors in journals can easily see through his mediocre work.
It is unfortunate that your newspaper went through what it did recently. To continue with this type and style of journalism is not in line with your previous reputation.
I have spoken in person and via telephone to numerous parents of children who, thanks to Tranquility Bay, have had their child returned to them whole again.
As a clinician with all the facilities of a major medical center available and which I used to try and help my child, I have done everything a father can for his son. Yet it was Tranquility Bay that has finally given my son what he needed to progress.
I would urge you to counsel your reporter, who may be inexperienced and trying to make a premature name for himself, be more objective and have more solid facts before writing an article. I would then ask you, as an editor, to carefully review what you have been given to approve, and act in behalf of the journalism the New York Times can be proud of.
Andrew C, M.D.
My name is Charles B., Shylla B. is at Casa by the Sea. Yes you have my approval and permission to use our names on the rebuttal .
Charles B.
Please include our names in your rebuttal to Tim Weiner, and the NY Times.
Randy D, AIA
Katherine D, M.T.
Daughter Jacke
OK TO USE OUR NAMES.
LEONOR R
MIKE G.
Hello,
Please add my name
Dawn S.
Recently my husband and I became concerned about our son when we read some of the articles written about the WWASP schools. Since my son was only in the Academy at Ivy Ridge for five weeks we decided the best thing to do was to go up to the school and make a surprise visit. The director of the school had not arrived yet because we intentionally got there very early to make sure that changes could not be preplanned. We were very impressed with the way the school was organized and structured. We saw our son and he looked great! He looked healthy and was smiling and never looked better. He has responsibilities that he is proud of and his school work is excellent. This is a child who had two choices for his future, jail or...I can't even say. No other programs offer the life-changing seminars that our children at the school and their families are getting. Most other programs are more expensive and have less to offer. Putting my son in the Academy of Ivy Ridge has saved his life and it is the best choice my husband and I have ever made. The real problems are the public schools where there is a lack of structure and the drugs run rampant on school grounds.
Signed,
Charlene B
I am outraged by the misuse of people's quotes committed by this writer. He knows that he is an irresponsible journalist and apparently doesn't care.
This program is saving my daughter's life. She is moving from not caring about herself and the consequences of her actions to looking forward to a great, productive and happy life. She has moved from an extreme case of negativity and oppositional defiance to really seeing that she is accountable for her choices -- and excited about making good ones. She is at Tranquility Bay and I am thrilled about it.
If this writer wants to make a name for himself through sensational jouranlism, he should consider this: what about the parents who see his articles and, based on his lies and distortions, decide not to put their child into any kind of facility, and the child is subsequently a lost cause in one way or another. There's a sensation for you.
Thank you and I am happy to help in any way I can.
I think a lawsuit is not a bad idea. If a group of parents file the lawsuit, hire an attorney on contingency and sue for lots of money with the stipulation that the award go into a fund to provide tuition for those otherwise unable to pay -- well, then, no one can say we are trying to benefit financially nor is WWASPS -- but it would maybe get the attention of the new york times.
All of us with kids in jamaica -- and even probably the other schools -- are getting the calls from wellmeaning friends and relatives saying, "Oh my God, you have put your child in danger. It has to be bad if the NY Times says so." I am so tired of defending this program. I know it is right for our family. And I am grateful for it --and I am willing to fight for it in the press, the legal system or any other venue.
Thanks,
Mary M
Please add Andrew W. A & Christine A
add my name to the list.
Amelia B
I have been to Casa by the Sea many times and have always been pleased with the school and staff. I will be going again on Thurs. Thank You for caring about our children.
William and Kim B
Jeanna & Lee K
Mike and Laurie S
Charles and Lynne H
James E. and Sandra
Mr. Tim Weiner, along with some disgruntled parents have not only misquoted many pro-parents; but he has planted doubts in the minds of many who are in the mist of turmoil with their out of control teens. This is sad. Not only do we as parents run out of options, we have a reporter stirring up a bee hive. This makes me wonder if Mr. Weiner has children, and if he does, what would he do when his son/daughter has exhausted schools, therapists and almost life? For us, we as a family are very grateful for what Dundee and CSA did for our family. I now have my daughter back who will and is experiencing the rest of her teenage years alive, with confidence, self-esteem, and making some very good working choices. Change is good! Perhaps Mr. Weiner could CHANGE the mood he is reporting in and try the honesty, loving, helpful approach!
Debby C, Proud mother
Sarah D, daughter
I can only speak from my experience with my daughter Brooke. She was a troubled teen when she went to Casa, and has been a productive student and reliable lifeguard since she returned. I am thankful to WWASP for making that transition possible and returning my daughter to me. Mark W. D
John and Koene G
My son was a student at Casa by the Sea in Mexico, run by the World Wide
Association, for 15 months. This program totally turned his life around for
the better. He came back from the program with self respect, self esteem,
motivation to succeed, and a true sense of accomplishment. He has qualified
for an academic scholarship at the local university and is currently working
and attending school. He leads a happy, productive life, and has a true
appreciation for family. The program is focused on family healing, and the
benefits that I received from attending the workshops have helped metremendously as well, not only in relating to my son, but in terms of my own
personal individual growth. I support the World Wide Association program
whole heartedly as evidenced by the positive results achieved within my
family.
Maria E. C
I have a daughter at Spring Creek Lodge and am very happy with the program. I had initially been interested in the Costa Rica site, but reconsidered due to the distance and my unfamiliarity with the political situation and rights of an American citizen in a foreign country. Sincerely,
JoAnne K
My name is Margaret B and my son, Timothy K, at Academy at Ivy Ridge. He was sent there on April 6 2003. So far I am satisfied with my sons progress.
Larry M, Eric and Jessica P
To Whom it May Concern:
I absolutely support this program. My daughter, Shanelle F has been in Tranquility Bay since July 2002. After the incident, I was concerned and asked her on one of my "phone calls" with her if everything was all right. She said not to listen to any of the negative things said about the program. She said "I am in a good place, mom-believe me, they are very good people here".
Lets face it, bad news sells. Its a business. This program is the best thing that could have happened to my daughter. I am going thru an extremely hard time financially and they have been more than patient with me. We are all in business to make money, yes, but I have found that these people truly care and want to make a difference in our children's lives. How often do we here that? How about an article on that? Too boring, I guess.
Feel free to contact me. Anyone, about anything.
Beatrice Z
I have nothing but positive feedback for Casa. My son has been there almost a year now, and I have seen great improvement and progress.
I have been there twice and have never had a complaint about it.
Even my son, not that he loves it there and would rather be home, but he understands why he is there.
Thank you for the Program
Elaine M, mother of Matthew M ,CBS
Ken & Marietta S
My son has been at Casa since May 14, 2003. So far I have been very impressed, and I believe in the program. I think they should run our public schools like this and maybe our society wouldn't be where it is
today.
Tammy H
Kay Anne G parent of Travis G, 18 1/2 year old choosing to graduate the program at Spring Creek Lodge
Patty W
Martin and Sylvia B
Susan and Wade J
I had emailed Mr. Weiner, but evidently there was to
much positive view for him to bother contacting me.
Regards,
Jeff M
even though my son has only been in the program 2 months, I know from his letters
that the program is working for him.
Yours Truly,
Barbara W
I contacted Tim Wiener explaining that I would like for him to have a "positive experience" from a SATISFIED WWASP parent - he then contacted me back and said that he would speak to me anytime at my convenience. I received some coaching from Donna Hamel and Dace Goulding and they both mentioned taping the conversations. I felt this was too much of a non-productive way to be in an interview with a NY Times reporter! I come believing everyone is integral until further notice and didn't want to put any more "bad press" our way! I am a happy satisfied family member with this program CASA BY THE SEA has presented us and my family is whole and healthy - finally! I will forever be grateful for the wonderful gifts this program has given me. Because of all the "bad press" my husband's family continues to send us the articles written negatively and will not listen to anything we have to say - they feel we are being brainwashed!
We don't care we are happy!
With warm regards
Todd and LuAnne H - Angela and Joshua W
Chuck and Connie M
We love Dundee Academy and give the credit to the staff and
program for saving our son. He would go back tomorrow if it were to open.
This safe place for teens will be missed.
Best Regards,
Eileen F
Denise S. P, mother
Suellen T
I have personally been to every WWASP related "school," even spent the night at several. On most of my visits I speak with many students. While many of them are students that we have intervened on, some are not. We get constant feedback from kids as well as the parents. I have been very impressed with the "program" as well as the schools themselves
I deal with many schools outside of the WWASP schools and consider these WWASP schools as one of the best when it comes to results and respect towards the students. They are not co-dependent, nor are they enabling with the kids. This is most often NOT liked by the kids during the early part of the process. But then, it's not supposed to be. Recovery is a tough love type of process and these "kids" are entering into recovery. If not for alcohol or drugs, though some are, most definitely for behavior. And behavior can be as addicting as any drug or alcohol that ever came down the pike. The key to any good program is completion. Those that do, generally thrive. It is often difficult; but, the tools, when used, create the atmosphere for change. It is a simple program; but, it is sometimes not easy. But the rewards are great for those that stick it out and allow themselves to be teachable.
As someone who has been in recovery for over six years and spent over twenty years in law enforcement, I can honestly say that I believe in their success and would have no problem sending my 14 year old son to a WWASP school...any of them.
Rick St
Jim and Janet T.
IF IT WASN'T FOR CASA MY SON WOULD BE IN JAIL OR DEAD. CASA GAVE HIM HIS LIFE BACK, AND IT ALSO HAS HELPED ME AS A PARENT. THE SEMINARS ARE WONDERFUL. I WISH THE WHOLE WORLD COULD EXPERIENCE THESE SEMINARS. MY SON HAS THANKED ME FOR SENDING HIM TO CASA. HE HAS BECOME A CONFIDENT, RESPECTFUL YOUNG MAN. HE STILL HAS A WAYS TO GO. BUT HE WILL LEAVE CASA WITH DIGNITY.
PARENT
SHARON I
When we sent our son, Duncan Clark, to CSA in October of 2001, I called the State of South Carolina's department dealing with schools such as CSA (possibly all private schools, I don't recall). The case worker I spoke to said they had visited CSA several times, unannounced, and found all was well. She said they had one report of abuse, which they found to be without substance. She mentioned that, when the school opened, there was a licence issue pertaining to, as I recall, a fire exit technicality. Beyond that matter, she reported that all was satisfactory at CSA. Certainly in the 16 months Duncan was at CSA, there were no "licence" issues that we were aware of. Duncan has spoken frankly to us about his experience at CSA and has no issue with abuse. He is doing fine with us, home since March of this year. He is extremely fond and closely connected with several of the staff at CSA (Mr. Gus, Mr. Bo, among others) and talks to "Mr. Rich" with affection.
I mentioned in my email to the NYTimes that I am not totally satisfied with the academic structure at CSA, the inadequate facilities, and the regular confusion between staff and others dealing with meds. However, CSA changed our son for the better, we continue to be a positive reference for CSA, and will continue to support the program.
VTY,
Hugh D. C
Feel free to add my name, Mary Beth M. I support the program 100%!
You have my permission to place my name on the rebuttal. I have also written a personal rebuttal previously with regard to Mr. Weiner's article. Thank you, .Cheryl W. son at Casa By The Sea
John H.
You have my permission to use my name in support of the WWASP schools. Nickie L
Yes, please add my name Laurie and Tony W., daughter at AIR
My name is Robyn H. and my son Brian is in the program at Casa - PLEASE use my name to support your rebuttal. Thank you. Robyn H
Our son was at Academy Dundee ranch for 15 months. We have only the highest regards for the WWASP programs. His time at Dundee allowed him to create a new life for himself, develop maturity and integrity, while looking at our family values. We have absolutely no negative feelings, nor has our son expressed any negative feelings about his time in the program. Please feel free to include our names in any positive rebuttal to the New York times or other media as you should deem necessary. Marland & Paul D.
I am a mother of a student in the program at casa by the sea based on the results I have seen from parents and students I am nothing but relieved and impressed by the structure of the program I know today that my son is in a safe supportive and well structured environment It is also my experience that the press is not honest in any reports that they have made a decision or judgement about this is a well known proven fact the harm and fear the press stirs up is absolutely criminal. I am more than happy to make these statements in support not only of the program but any other person or institution that is subject their dishonesty and sensationalism. In honor of the press I truly appreciate the honest reporting staff I hope my voice is heard in support of the WWASP Nicki C.
You may add our names to the list. Linda & David B
You have my permission
Steve E.Father of Quinn - Spring Creek Lodge
Yes you can feel free to use our names in signing the rebuttal. Although we are new to the program we have already seen a change in our daughter since she has been at Cross Creek. I would hate to see some bozo damage this programbecause of some grandstanding and inaccurate reporting.Thanks , Don and Rebecca D.
Yes! Include me in the protest. The New York times credibility is at an all time low due to stories that were "made up by their reporters". This is another example of the manipulative non sense published by what used to be known as a respected media source. Now, it might as well be a rag like "The Globe", etc. William M.
Dear Mr. Kay, My husband and I, as parents of a success story from Casa by the Sea, also are disappointed at the lack of integrity that Mr. Weiner demonstrated. This article is in fact so false that the author's persuasion techniques are void. There is a difference between bias, bandwagon phrases, and loaded language and complete lies. By omitting testimonies and changing the context of others, Mr. Weiner can now proudly join those fellow journalists that are plundering the distinguished reputation of the New York Times. Sincerely, Gerry and Katherine C. Please feel free to share this letter with anyone who cares to make a positive difference in this world.
Dear Ken, Yes, absolutely add my name as a co-signer in support of WWASP, any time to any list/petition you may be writing. I stand behind all the programs 100%. Please use any of the below paragraphs (from my Casa Support Letter) if you like. I have a statement for the Editor at the end. Please use any or all as you wish. Also you have my permission to share/use this letter with other news media or other sources as you see fit. Thank you for including me on the list! I will always be here in support of WWASP. EXCERPTS FROM MY CASA BY THE SEA SUPPORT LETTER: When my son was on an unrelenting path of self-destruction, I began a search for a program that would give him his life back. After receiving information about WWASP, I realized this was an innovative program that not only saved lives, literally, but also promoted whole and healthy families, as well as offering the students a high school and college education. My son entered Casa by the Sea at the lowest, most dangerous time in his young life, addicted to drugs, a runaway, no direction or goals and extremely low self-esteem. There is no question that he would have died from the lifestyle he led, if he had not been given this opportunity of self-discovery, learning and growth, education, and rebuilding his self-esteem. He has been given life-long tools to use in making positive choices for living a sober, healthy, productive life. I truly know of no other program that offers such opportunities for our teens & families in crisis, as WWASP. Through this program at Casa by The Sea, my son has once again learned to love himself, has positive direction through his choices, and is living a drug free life. He has told me that he would be dead if he was not at Casa by The Sea and he is very thankful I sent him and he intends to learn all he can while he is there. My son has graduated from high school while at Casa By The Sea, and is eagerly taking challenging college courses! He has goals of continuing on in college and getting a degree in business! All this from a young man who was so distraught he was contemplating choosing to end it all. My Statement To The Editor: It is unfortunate that the opinions of the press carry such unrealistic, negative views of these programs, and write out right lies about what goes on in these schools, scaring off young people and their families who are in crisis and would be saved by these programs. It is tragic that the press is misinformed and so easily influenced, and almost exclusively carry the opinions of an unhappy few. The tragedy with this kind of sensationalism is that it has caused severe physical and psychological trauma to families and teens who were already in severe crisis in their lives, with no conscious thought of how it might permanently affect these kids. I absolutely do not want my son's progress to be disrupted because of the press or the negative few. I am personally asking the State Department to assist in upholding article # 5 and # 18 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Children. These programs truly SAVE LIVES AND FAMILIES! I am eternally grateful for the constant love, support and guidance from WWASP and all the staff and administration at Casa by the Sea. I would recommend these Programs to any family whose teen is in crisis. I, and all the parents with students in WWASP Programs, thank you for your time. Mandy K. Parent of a son at Casa By The Sea
Please do include our name in the letter to the Editor! We cannot say enough good about the program and the fact that after 23 months, our son Louis is home (graduated May 11, 2003) is working a part time job, enrolled in college for the fall semester and is a participating member of our family. He is happy, healthy and alive! He has many hopes and dreams that he knows he can achieve, thanks to the teachings and support from the program. We have all learned and experienced so much through out the seminars and the entire WWASP affiliation. We would do it all over again, without reservation! With Love and Gratitude Lou & Kathleen B.
Yes you may use my name Giovanna G. in the rebuttal, I support WWASPS 100%. Thanks, Giovanna
By all means, use my name. And although' this is a difficult time for everyone at WWASP, please be assured that I, as well as many others, appreciate all your organization has done for my family. Let me know if there is anything else I can do. Much love, Susan C.
Please use my name, you have my full permission. Obviously Mr. Weener oops Weiner doesn't have a child in crisis. Regards, John R.
Cross Creek Step-father
I sent my son to Carolina Springs Academy, one of the 7 WWASP, on the 27th of December 2002. He was headed for a life of crime and most assuredly to an early death. The program at Carolina Springs created an environment where a miracle could take place inside of him. He is a different child with hopes and dreams and a good dose of self-esteem and worth. I am and will be eternally grateful to the staff of Carolina Springs for giving me a place to send my son where healing can take place in a safe and loving environment.
Chris B grateful parent
You have my support, and my permission to add my name to the letter to the editor Of the New York Times. Kathryn M.
You have my permission to use my name for the letter to the editor. Vickie T
Jose & Debra M (student: Hector M)You have our permission to add our name to the letter to the editor expressing our support to Tranquillity Bay's program. Regards,
Yes, you can add my name to the letter you are sending. This whole thing angers me so much. I have had no dealings with Mr. Wiener and I don't care to, but I am now very aware of how someone's statements can be terribly misquoted. I have nothing but wonderful things to say about the Program. My son is at SCL and just came home for his second home pass. It's hard to put into words the gratitude I have for the wonderful people at SCL, the facilitators of the seminars and all of the people that have touched my family's life. My son has such an air of peace about him that I can't remember him having since he was an infant. He is proud of himself, loves himself and has is doing so remarkably well. The Program has been perfect for us and thousands of other families and anyone who makes it his job to distort the facts is terribly distorted himself. I strongly believe in the goodness of this Program and support your efforts to correct the damage Mr. Weiner has done. Thank you. Janet S.
To New York Times: I read every day about how your paper distorts the truth to fill an agenda. The recent dismissals may not be enough. Why read a paper that you can not trust. KC T.
You may use our names in the letter. David and Amy S Son: Brandon - Ivy Ridge since June 3, 2002, soon to transfer as an upper level to Midwest Academy.
Yes, you most definitely may use my name, Cathy J., parent, Spring Creek Lodge to support this program, That was the most ridiculous article I have ever read. I was just totally appalled that it ever made it to print.!!! Cathy J
Dear Ken, I am more than satisfied with our program. I like many others know that our program will be a major factor in my son's success in life. Please, by all means, use my name. I do not know that my story will be of any help. However, here it goes. My son has been in the program 1 year on July 9. He is at level one, zero points. He has never been higher than level one. He did, however, at one point have almost eight hundred points. I have seen him grow and I have seen him go back into old patterns. Until recently, he thought that the world was against him and everything was someone else's fault. He is slowly coming to realize, it is his attitude and his choices; there is not anyone else to blame. That is a very big step. I have done all the seminars, and I look forward to staffing them in the future. I recommend our program to all who will listen. I will also continue to do so. I believe in our program. I hope this helps. Love and strength, Cynthya S.
Please feel free to add our names to your list of satisfied parents. Thank you. The Best Way to Predict the Future ... is to Create it. Linda & Charlie C.
You have our permission and support.
Thanks
Christopher and Stephanie Reid
OK to add my name to list
Lori
Dear Mr. Kay, I've been keeping up with this on the BBS. I will be more than glad to write a letter of support or you have my permission to use my name in support of the program. My daughter entered Casa 4/13/03 and I believe it has saved her life. Thank you so much. Linda L.C.
Dear Ken Kay,
You have our permission to include our names on the list of supportive parents of the WWASP program, which will be sent to the letter to the editor of the New York Times.
Sincerely,
Patricia and David K.
Mr. Kay, Please add my name to the list of WWASPS supporters intended for the New York Times letter to the Editor. My 16 year old son will soon return home from Casa by the Sea with a new set of values and a purpose in life. When I think of what he was up to when I enrolled him there, I know that this program probably saved his life, and most definitely gave him the tools to realize his potential. Cheryl S
You have my permission to use my name. Albert N.
You have our permission to use our name.
Robert & Donna L..
I just found the New York Times article. I can not judge what happened at Dundee Ranch. Were mistakes made? Maybe. Are these mistakes a detriment to the children's well being? Unlikely. What appears to be happening is a bunch of 'feel good' and 'do good' people that refuse to look at the complete picture stirring up troubles for already seriously troubled teens:- These teens are at Dundee Ranch because they have shown no respect for their parent's authority and very likely for authority in general.- These teens are at great risk to start or already have been using dangerous illegal drugs, showing serious lack of respect for authority, but also lack of respect for their own health and general well being.- These teens are at great risk or have been already, to get in serious trouble with the law either through their drug and/or alcohol use, or the illegal activity that is needed to support their drug or alcohol habits.- These teens are at great risk to end up living in the street, living in jail, or not living at all.- These teens must get the discipline and accountability that they clearly are lacking. What we should never forget is that attempts to undermine the great benefits that programs like Dundee Ranch give will take away for some of these teens the last chance they have to learn the right things and turn their lives around. Is one life or one teen saved worth 'having to sleep with 15 kids in one room' as the article states? Yes. I bet you some of these kids are at Dundee Ranch because they slept in a room with 15 kids, all high on whatever type of drugs or alcohol they could get their hands on! Is one life or teen saved worth living in 'an old hotel on a rutted red-dirt road'? Yes, it is better to live there for a few months than living in the street or in jail for the rest of the teens life, because that's where they'll end up unless they get the help needed to turn their lives around. If the New York Times wants to help these teens, they should use their time and energy on telling these teens how important it is for them to clean up their act, take responsibility for their own actions and become fully participating members of society, instead of undermining the last desperate attempts of their parents to help their sons and daughters. Two and a half years ago our 15 year old son was living in the streets using whatever drugs or alcohol he could get his hands on. It was clear to us that this was not just a 'phase' that he was going through and that he was setting himself up for loads of health and safety related risks and loads of legal troubles. Thanks to the incredible hard work and determination from my wife we were able to send our son to Casa by the Sea. After 23 months we got back, and he has been home now for 8 months. Without this program I am sure we would have lost our son forever. Now instead I am celebrating his success each time that I see him. I am so proud of him. He has completely turned his life around and serves as a great example of how good and how important these programs are. Yes, please use my name. Henk V., proud father of Dennis, Casa Kid!!
Dear WWASP,
I have been sitting on this letter as I know the stand you take. You have my full support, feel free to use my words or my name in any way that you choose.
Deanna Tucker
To Whom It may Concern,
I have a daughter at Tranquillity Bay; she has been there for 13 months. I find the articles recently written about the WWASP programs to be offensive and outrageous distortions of the truth. It upsets me that such an article would even be allowed in a world known newspaper such as the New York Times. These articles are harmful to not only WWASP but to the parents and children this program is helping.
When I made the decision to place my daughter at Tranquility Bay it was not something I did on a whim. Our family has been to 6 psychiatrists 14 therapists, 2 in patients mental health stays, 2 out patient programs, a group home for girls and police visits at least 2 times a month. All of this only when we knew where she was. Officials told me, I could not restrain her nor could I throw her out. In the mean time my other daughters were afraid to be in the house with her. After much investigation I decided to place my daughter at Tranquility Bay.
When I visit her I see my child has gained self-esteem, leadership skills and is dreaming of her future again. To quote her AMom, I am going to graduate this program, it will be the first thing I have ever completed.@ She is happy, loves the staff. I have been to program many times. They even allowed me to come on a Holiday and just be at the program for three days with my daughter. People ask how can you do this sending your daughter away? I always say, I will get her back whole and happy a functioning part of our society. Had I not done this she would have surely died? This program has saved my child=s life and given my family hope for the future. I only wished more people in official roles such as public schools would look at some of the aspects of this program and adapt them into the various programs. Maybe then we could keep some of the suicides, drug overdoses and teen pregnancies from happening to one more kid. I hope when writing articles about WWASP programs or any other someone in American journalism will take a responsibility and look at the good vs. the bad that these programs do.
Sincerely,
Deanna Tucker
Add George & Terrie B. Proud parents of: Jared W 02/2003 Savana W currently L5
Dear Ken, Yes, please add our names and contact us if you need anything further. Dan, Dyana, and Bryan P
You may use my name as a co-signer Karina A
To the Editor;
I have two daughters, ages 18 and 17. Fifteen months ago, after diligently seeking local help, I chose to enroll my youngest (then 15), into Tranquility Bay. For the past 2 years before this, I experienced both my daughters running away, drug abuse, arrests, suspension and ultimately failing school. I seriously feared for their lives. Seeking help from the onset, which included Baker Acting, my family was getting nowhere. I then made the pain-staking decision to send my youngest to Tranquility Bay. She now wants to live, do for others and is a role model for her family in Jamaica. She even proudly wears a one-year sober key chain on her bracelet. Four months into her stay at Tranquility Bay, I sent my oldest to join her. She returned home only 7 months later and has since then graduated high school, bought a car, works full time and lives on her own as a functional adult. Words cannot describe how she has 'come into her own.' She contributes her success to Tranquility Bay as do I. I have visited the facility twice and have found loving, caring devoted staff, along with it's owner, Mr. Kay.
So, to your writer, Mr. Wiener:
Newspapers should print non-fiction-unlike yourself. Maybe you should write fictional stories, as you've showed the public that you're quite efficient at it.
Destin, Florida
Ken Kay:
You have my permission to add my name to the letter to the Editor.
Wilma Stigell
Dear Ken,
You have my permission to use my name in any correspondence to any newspaper in the world. Here is what I would say if asked about our experience:
Our daughter was in need of a placement away from home based on her poor impulse control and poor choice of friends and associated risky behaviors. Sending her to Ivy Ridge took a leap of faith for us as desperate parents. It was the best decision we ever made. Julie is home now due to her own choosing, having left Ivy Ridge after she turned 18. She is working part time, and taking two college courses this summer to prepare for the start of her freshman year at Mercy Hurst College in Erie, PA. A much sought after field hockey goalie for the three years prior to her problem behaviors, she worked hard to improve her grades and her attitude which served her well as she received a partial athletic scholarship to play field hockey in college this fall. She also made the commitment to complete her Girl Scout Gold Award (the highest achievement in Girl Scouting) by reorganizing the library at Ivy Ridge. With the support of a dedicated and loving staff, she has accomplished that goal. This Sunday, June 29, she will receive her Gold Award pin in a ceremony at our home in front of Ivy Ridge administration and our State Representative. We will also celebrate her high school graduation which she achieved 5 months ahead of her class at home. She has accomplished so much in the year since she left our home - angry, depressed and without direction. We attribute the program and the dedication, love and support of those we have met on this journey to bringing our daughter home again filled with purpose and love. Thank you WWASPS and especially Ivy Ridge,
Sincerely,
Teresa M. Smith
Yes, Mr. Kay, you may use my name as supportive of the program. My son Colin, wrote a response to the article. He was very supportive of the program. I forwarded a copy of it to you and to our old Family Rep at Casa. Regards, Ken D.
I haven't read the article that Worldwide is refuting, but I lend my support against any reporter who misquotes and slants an article to suit his own agenda rather than reporting fairly. My daughter attends at Casa by the Sea. We looked at well over 100 programs and found this to be the best around. The facilities are superb. The staff is exceptional. They succeed in restoring families and helping them to create healthy family dynamics. They have a guarantee that if the student graduates from the program and returns to any of the former misbehavior, they can return to the school and the first two months are free tuition. Part of the reason they are so successful is that they don't just deal with the "problem child." The association provides training for parents and grandparents as well to insure when the adolescent returns home, he/she has an environment prepared to help him/her succeed. I can't endorse the Worldwide Specialty Schools enough! Any article that besmirches their sterling results is pursuing an agenda that is not in the best interest of helping families with troubled teens. Shame on any reporter or newspaper that runs such clap-trap! While society struggles to regain some semblance of emotional health for its members, Worldwide Specialty Schools offers an education and gives families tools to improve peoples' lives and in turn, improve our communities--literally making the world a better place. I question the integrity of any organization that would discredit such high aspirations. Perhaps they fear that if society improves sufficiently, there will be little to print. They might even have to change their agenda and approach! Dori H.
Of course sign my name to the rebuttal letter and use this and any of my other statements as you see fit. Also, please send the letter to any other media sources that you feel are appropriate. As always, contact me at any time. Anita G. F.
Dear Mr. Kay, I also sent a letter to the editor of People magazine in response to an article concerning Dundee. World Wide has been a life saving experience for our family. MaryBeth M Son, @ Cross Creek Center
Hi Ken,
How are you? My name is Chan N and Ly H, my son in Casa by the Sea now. Please include our name on the letter to send to Editor and Manager of NYT. Please tell them that : CASA BY THE SEA SAVED MY FAMILY. The program made my son became a good son now. Please tell them: LEAVE US ALONE, PLEASE, PLEASE. CHAN N. and LY H.
Please feel free to add my name and my parents who help pay for tuition for Ryan L. The names are Beth L Marcia K and Lenny K. We wholeheartedly support WWASP and if you need anything else from me please do not hesitate to contact me. I am glad you will be doing a response. Thank you for everything, Beth L
Please add my name to the list John P
You can use my name in your article response. Please send me a copy of that article, especially if it is published. Julie Davies-Roost
Dear Ken, OUR FAMILY IS GRATEFUL FOR THE WWASP PROGRAM AND ALL THE TOOLS OUR FAMILY HAS RECEIVED TO ONCE AGAIN BE A FAMILY UNIT. YOU CAN PUT KEVIN AND DIANNE BERG ON THAT REBUTTAL LETTER TOO. Love, Kevin & Dianne B.
Please add my name and that of my husband Walter to the rebuttal letter to the NYT. My faith in accurate reporting has been severely shaken by these stories.
Sincerely, Gayle and Walter S.
I believe the New York Times is not unlike People Magazine. When only a handful of parents and students are interviewed, there is bound to be bias to any story. My big question is, why would you believe a child in the program without first hand knowledge? Did you forget why these children are in programs such as these? My daughter graduated from one of the WWASP facilities and is now a productive part of society instead of being a burden for all of us to carry. She was never treated as was reported and thanks me for sending her and saving her life. Vickie V
My child went to the WWASP program school, and all our family went through the seminars. It is the ONLY program that truly helps kids get back in a positive alignment with themselves and their family. I was disappointed to hear that your reporter greatly distorted and only spoke about the negative, when we who are in the program know that it has saved our children's lives. Mimi H Parent of Majestic Ranch student
I would like to see Tom Weiner visit all of the facilities and that it be mandatory he attend Discovery and Focus before writing another article regarding WWASP. I found his articles distasteful, full of errors and biased. This Program is the best thing that happened not only to my son, but also to our entire family. - Mary O.- Mother
Yes, you definitely have my permission to use my name. I fully support the Program and Dundee in particular; without it, my son wouldn=t be alive! Stephanie DelaC
Yes, you can use my name on your rebuttal. My son has been in the program for fourteen months and the results have been wonderful. Leave it to the New York Times to convolute the truth. Regards, Eric E
You may of course use our names. Our son attended Casa By The Sea. David and Midori F
Dear KenB Please add Frank and Linda M. to your letter.
Frank
This letter of support is from Linda M and Bob M, our son Matthew is at Cross Creek Center. We took him there January 23, 2003. He has told us that the program has saved his life. Through many heart wrenching letters we have come to know this is more true than we could have imagined when we took him out there. It has been our experience through the BBS, Discovery, and Focus Seminars that the parents of the program children are totally committed to these children and their future. We have not met one single person who would allow their child=s life to be endangered. Further more there has not been a single parent who sent their child without researching the program, soul searching for alternatives, and making the ultimate sacrifice of giving to their child. We are proud to be a program child=s parents, and equally proud to be working the program for ourselves. This program is the most positive experience of growth we have ever found. The benefits we are receiving are immeasurable. It is our pleasure to add our names to the list of parents and children who support the program. Whole Heartedly Linda A. M. Robert A. M.
Please add my name / quote to this letter. My daughter has been at Cross Creek since Dec '01 and I have nothing negative to say about the program at all. Her therapists and family reps have been superb. Before enrolling my daughter in this program we had tried months of counseling, then psychiatric help and medication without success. I enrolled her at Cross Creek after a suicide attempt. She is now a happy child with much potential for a successful life ahead of her. Regards, Cathy K.
Please add my name, Michael A. P, to the rebuttal letter. I am in full support of the program, THANKS for helping to save my son Robert's life. love and support. Michael
I would like to say that I have been happy with what my daughter is experiencing at Carolina Springs. Her letters are thought out and she has improved 100% in her studies. She was making zeros, incompletes, and most of her teachers didn't even know who she was, because she left school as soon as I watched her walk in. She also has more confidence in herself and her abilities. She has a structured environment and someone watching her, so that when she starts veering off track, there is help and guidance for her to get back where she needs to be. Here at home, a child was killed in Jessica's old school and there have been rapes and gang activities also. I have met staff members and am very confident in their ability to not only take care of my daughter, but also love her and help her while Iam unable to. I just want to say, until you are in this situation, that you have to keep an open mind and each persons experience will be different. I have heard good and bad stories about the schools. I don't know what I believe, but I do know, that for me, I feel very good about my decision and I know it is the best thing for Jessica right now. Thank You, Toby R Mother
Please feel free to use my name and that of my husband. We love Cross Creek Manor and the program. It has enabled us to save our marriage and our daughter is working very hard to become a healthier member of our family. Without WWASP none of this would have happened.
With great appreciation, We are respectfully yours, Evelyn and Randy Steele
Please add my name to your rebuttal list. Perry D. R, and son/graduate of Casa by the Sea, Perry RI am most proud to be a Visions graduate and have my son graduate the program this weekend. It is truly a life saver for us.......Thanks is not enough.....I owe everyone in this process years of service which I will continue to do by staffing for others in their journey....I stand with each and every one of you. Sincerely, Perry D. Reed
You bet I'll reply. I am so totally angry with the way the Program has been reflected in the Media. Their constant need for sensationalism and negative reporting seems to be the only way they feel they can sell papers. Why doesn't someone have the guts to print the truth. I do believe that there are some parents who are so disturbed themselves that any changes proposed by the program are changes they themselves are unwilling to face. Therefore, they are unhappy with the program. They cannot face their own inadequacies. As for me, I wholeheartedly support and endorse the program. I will always be eternally grateful to the wonderful people who have helped my daughter. She is quickly becoming a very happy, well adjusted and productive young women. I support you 100% and will be willing to sign whatever petition you wish. Let me know.
My sincere gratitude. Maria D. G.
You have my permission to add my name to the letter to the Editor. Judy R, Daughter at Cross Creek Manor
I hereby grant Permission to add my name to NY Times rebuttal.
Mark G, Daughter - Casa
Please include us: Ron and Pam R, son, SCL
Hello Ken: Our experience with WWASP has been a huge benefit to our family!! Our son graduated in May and all of us continue to use the many tools we learned from the Program. Yes, you may attach my name to your letter to the editor and you may use my name when sharing with other media. Thank you for taking a stand !!Kelly
Dear WWASPS
You have my full permission to add my name to the list of parents who were greatly offended by Tim Wiener's articles. My son and I were very happy with Dundee and neither one of us wanted him to have to leave, until program completion that is.
Regards
Debbie Vassallo
I'm happy to have my name added to the rebuttal, however, when looking at the email concerning this issue, I noticed a few typos and other errors, such as using the word "detesting" when I believe what was meant was "protesting." Might I offer my services to WWASPS, as a practicing attorney, in order to assist in this process and to ensure the rebuttal article is accurate and persuasive?
Please advise.
Sincerely,
John M
Please use my name....Linda V Son: Matt M / Casa / Level 4 / 14 months in the program
I attribute Casa to saving my son's life. The program has offered him a self awareness that has enriched his self esteem & motivated him to reach for his dreams. I could not have had the success in the past 14 months without Casa. I am passionate about supporting the program please let me know if there is anything I may contribute that would be helpful.
Best,
Linda
You can add our name to the signatories if we can help in any other way, feel free to contact us all the best Abraham & Sarah B.
Dear Mr. Kay, You have my permission to use my name to your rebuttal to the New York Times. I know without any hesitation that the program saved my daughter's life. Is the program perfect? No. Am I happy with the results? Yes. Would I send her to Spring Creek again? Absolutely. I have been following the news articles, along with parents' accounts on the BBS, as well as a couple that I personally know whose son was at Dundee when the whole affair and there is no doubt in my mind that Tim Weiner misrepresented the truth to present a very slanted viewpoint. He also needs to realize that he further undermined families when some of the children were forced to go home due to certain circumstances and are now no longer in programs. He also caused unaccountable financial distress. Where is his accountability? So yes, please add my name to your list! Sincerely, Dione E. and Alec E.
You have our permission - Jay and Sharon L
Yes, you have permission to use my name in the rebuttal. Nancy G.
Yes Ken by all means use me as a parent who completely supports WWASP you may even add the following.
"I was contacted by Mr. Weiner by email to tell our story. I told him that I would agree to do so with a few stipulations such as recording the conversation and a written letter from him stating that he would not misquote me. We made a telephone appointment for Friday, June 13, 2003 of which he did not call nor has he sent me any other correspondence. After some thought I had decided to not give much information anyway. The fact of the matter is that WWASP has saved my daughter's life and our family as well. We are a whole and healthy family, she is home and the tools we have been given through this program are invaluable". Kitty M - Mother
Yes, You have permission to use my name on the letter responding to NY times and irresponsible manner in which Mr. Weiner represented the WWASP Schools. regards, Michael M.
I would be please to be part of the support for WWASP. If you need more than just a name, feel free to contact me directly.
Sincerely,
Rick G
Mr. Ken Kay, The reporting of incorrect facts by the New York Times is an unfortunate bit of bad publicity for your organization which does some truly wonderful work. I have sent two boys through the Cross Creek program. They have been out for several years and are still doing quite well. I would do it again if the situation warranted. I am grateful that I found your program. You may use my name in your rebuttal. If you are open to some feedback, I have some. My experience of your organization is that when they want something FROM me they seem to be able to find me or e-mail me. Your organization has never contacted me in any way for any reason other than to solicit my help. Not to check on either of the young lives that they influenced so greatly. No follow ups or thank yous. Nothing. One might argue that with so many children going through the program that would be an enormous and almost impossible task. Yet when it serves your interest you seem to be up to the challenge. Well, I challenge you to make contact with all those families for no reason than to catch up, check in, receive feedback and just say thanks for your trust in us and allowing us to be a part of your child's life if only for a short time. I will look forward to hearing from you again in the near future. Sincerely, Richard C.
Please feel free to add my name and let me know if there is anything else I can do. Much love,
Tamara J
Our son is finally, after nearly eighteen years, learning to let go of the anger that has consumed him for the majority of his life. The pictures we have of him before we sent him to Spring Creek Lodge don't even look like the same kid who has been at SCL for a year now. Today the pictures show a kid who is smiling a smile that comes right out of our heart. The anger is all but gone. And he is clean and sober and finding joy in living that lifestyle. We tried EVERYTHING we could think of before choosing this option (years of therapy, etc.) and this is what works. Please, by all means use our names. Bill and Leslie W., parents of Brandon W SCL on 7/1/02
Mr. Kay- You have permission to use our names for the purpose as explained in this email. furthermore, our daughter will be graduating from spring creek this week. we would like to express our heartfelt thanks to the staff at scl. our experience of the school has been exceptionally positive. we have only wonderful things to say about spring creek. thank you for making a difference in our lives and especially our daughters life. sincerely, Bob and Marilyn P
I am a relatively new parent to WWASPS. My daughter was escorted to Casa by the Sea and arrived there on March 22, 2003. My child is not an easy child, she can and will fight you every step of the way, and I have to give a LOT OF CREDIT TO THE STAFF AT CASA for being able and willing to work with Alicia . If there is an issue, I know about it. The staff there do not hesitate to let me know if something is wrong and they also let me know what is going on that is right. If ever I have a simple question I send an email and get a response within 24 hours. If I have a more intense question I call Casa and get an answer. I can now sleep at night without having one eye open, all because I know my daughter is in a safe place and I do not have to worry about her running away. I trust the staff there and know they will take care of my daughter, keep her safe and they will help her every way they possibly can.
Alice C
Yes, you can add my name to the rebuttal. My father has been sending me copies of all the NY Times articles and it absolutely disgusts me. The descriptions of the TB facility and Casa facility in no way correspond to my experiences of both places.
Lisa S
OK to add my name to list
Mr. Kay, Please add my name to the list of WWASPS supporters intended for the New York Times letter to the Editor. My 16 year old son will soon return home from Casa by the Sea with a new set of values and a purpose in life. When I think of what he was up to when I enrolled him there, I know that this program probably saved his life, and most definitely gave him the tools to realize his potential. Cheryl S
You have my permission to use by name. Albert N. E. California
You have our permission to use our name.
Robert & Donna L
Dear Ken, Yes, please add our names and contact us if you need anything further. Dan, Dyana, and Bryan P.
To the Editor;
I have two daughters, ages 18 and 17. Fifteen months ago, after diligently seeking local help, I chose to enroll my youngest (then 15), into Tranquility Bay. For the past 2 years before this, I experienced my daughters running away, drug abuse, arrests, suspension and ultimately failing school. I seriously feared for their lives.
Seeking help from the onset, which included Baker Acting, my family was getting nowhere. I then made the pain-staking decision to send my youngest to Tranquility Bay. She now wants to live, do for others and is a role model for her family in Jamaica. She even proudly wears a one-year sober key chain on her bracelet.
Four months into her stay at Tranquility Bay, I sent my oldest to join her. She returned home only 7 months later and has since then graduated high school, bought a car, works full time and lives on her own as a functional adult. Words cannot describe how she has 'come into her own.' She contributes her success to Tranquility Bay as do I. I have visited the facility twice and have found loving, caring devoted staff, along with it's owner, Mr. Kay.
So, to your writer, Mr. Wiener:
Newspapers should print non-fiction-unlike yourself. Maybe you should write fictional stories, as you've showed the public that you're quite efficient at it..
Destin, F.
Ken Kay:
You have my permission to add my name to the letter to the Editor.
Wilma S
Dear Ken,
You have my permission to use my name in any correspondence to any newspaper in the world. Here is what I would say if asked about our experience: Our daughter was in need of a placement away from home based on her poor impulse control and poor choice of friends and associated risky behaviors. Sending her to Ivy Ridge took a leap of faith for us as desperate parents. It was the best decision we ever made. Julie is home now due to her own choosing, having left Ivy Ridge after she turned 18. She is working part time, and taking two college courses this summer to prepare for the start of her freshman year at Mercy Hurst College in Erie, PA. A much sought after field hockey goalie for the three years prior to her problem behaviors, she worked hard to improve her grades and her attitude which served her well as she received a partial athletic scholarship to play field hockey in college this fall. She also made the commitment to complete her Girl Scout Gold Award (the highest achievement in Girl Scouting) by reorganizing the library at Ivy Ridge. With the support of a dedicated and loving staff, she has accomplished that goal. This Sunday, June 29, she will receive her Gold Award pin in a ceremony at our home in front of Ivy Ridge administration and our State Representative. We will also celebrate her high school graduation which she achieved 5 months ahead of her class at home. She has accomplished so much in the year since she left our home - angry, depressed and without direction. We attribute the program and the dedication, love and support of those we have met on this journey to bringing our daughter home again filled with purpose and love.
Thank you WWASPS and especially Ivy Ridge,
Sincerely,
Teresa M. S
Yes, Mr. Kay, you may use my name as supportive of the program. My son Colin, wrote a response to the article. He was very supportive of the program. I forwarded a copy of it to you and to our old Family Rep at Casa. Regards, Ken D.
Dear Mr. Kay I also sent a letter to the editor of People magazine in response to an article concerning Dundee. World Wide has been a life saving experience for our family. Mary Beth M. Son, @ Cross Creek Center
You have my permission to use my name in your letter to the editor Sincerely, Connie L. A. Brian L. B.
Please add my name to the list John P
You can use my name in your article response. Please send me a copy of that article, especially if it is published. Julie D.
Please add my name and that of my husband Walter to the rebuttal letter to the NYT. My faith in accurate reporting has been severely shaken by these stories.
Sincerely,
Gayle and Walter S
You may of course use our names. Our son attended Casa By The Sea. David and Midori F.
Dear Ken--Please add Frank and Linda M to your letter. Frank
Please add my name / quote to this letter. My daughter has been at Cross Creek since Dec '01 and I have nothing negative to say about the program at all. Her therapists and family rep shave been superb. Before enrolling my daughter in this program we had tried months of counseling, then psychiatric help and medication without success. I enrolled her at Cross Creek after a suicide attempt. She is now a happy child with much potential for a successful life ahead of her. Regards, Cathy K
Please feel free to use my name and that of my husband. We love Cross Creek Manor and the program. It has enabled us to save our marriage and our daughter is working very hard to become a healthier member of our family. Without WWASP none of this would have happened.
With great appreciation,
We are respectfully yours,
Evelyn and Randy S
You may add my name to the letter to the editor of the NY Times. Akos N.
Dear World Wide, You have my permission to add both our names to the letter to the editor. We are so grateful that we were able to find a program that not only gave our daughter a second chance, but gave us a second chance as a family. Truly Grateful for the program, Doug & Shari G.
You have our permission to use our name Mark & Karen M.
You may add our names to the list of satisfied parents of the program. We have not been contacted by the New York Times but would be happy to share our success story about Cross Creek Manor and WWASP with anyone who may want it. Diana and Andrew W.
You have permission to use my name as a signatory on a letter to the NY times. Dianna D.
[ This Message was edited by
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Not sure what you perceived as an attack. I resent the twisting of words to make a situation appear to be something it's not. In this case, to make it appear that the kid chose to go to a program when in fact he was forced against their will. And you have all but confirmed my criticism with this comment:
"No, not consciously, but actions have consequences, and that parent obviously loved her child enough to not lose him to the legal system or other destructive options."
So why not say the truth, being sent to the program was a consequence? I imagine that no one wants to feel the guilt associated with incarcerating their child, therefore they use language that implies that it was the child's choice. I made no reference to the parent being a control freak, those were your words based on an erroneous assumption; and what I imagine you all fear being perceived as, hence the necessity of stating the child made the choice.
If the kid did not select freely after considering, he did not choose. Period. He was forced to attend the program, because his mother chose to have a reaction to his behavior and chose to issue a consequence. Is there shame attached to that reality?
Do the kids watch the news or read newpapers or listen to the radio? Aren't they indeed cut off from the outside world? Do they see the latest movie releases or hear the latest music? Other advocates of the program have confirmed this, defending that it was necessary for the child, so s/he would focus on working their program. You choose to deny this is a reality. If it's such a therapeutic necessity, why not admit it and discuss how any human benefits from being isolated from the world?
You said: The letters in a wwasp school are NOT censored. The kids can write anything their hearts desire, whether nice, or not.
Would it be too much to ask, for you to stick to speaking about your experience and stop making general statements which seem to imply that you are here to do damage control. There are ample allegations to the fact that some letters were never received, in both directions. You can say that didn't happen in your case, but unless you are a spokesperson for the organization you can not state with certainty that others allegations are not true.
I'm not assuming too much on the negative side. I disagree with the beginning assumption that incarceration of teens is beneficial or humane. I believe that is something amiss about the whole concept. I listen to the allegations and tend to believe that the majority of them are truthful based on my experience with the industry and that of others who have shared.
PS And I resent yet another spamming of this forum with advertising for the program.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-01-04 12:31 ]
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That is not spam, plus it is not as long as some of the post I have seen on this board. However Ginger and others wanted to see testimonials.
Have a nice day. :wink:
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Can you provide a link to the message in which Ginger or anyone else requested testimonials? A link wouldn't suffice? No, you're taking up space on this server to advertise.
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Geez these Kool aid drinkers annoy me.
Bla, Bla, Bla (I'm right and your not, na na na na na!) have a nice day.
The monster size type is far worse than all capps (extremely rude) and you ought to understand by now, the raving devotion to the program you legions of faithful spew out, is worthless as evidence of reality in the program.
We know what you believe; we believe you are deluded; manipulated and brainwashed.
As for the letters and censorship - Oh yes indeed they do censor the mail; both letters and email. There are staff who have admitted it is part of their job!
Its part of one of my son's comedy routines:
Staff checking email: Oh No! You don't mean that!
here, lets fix this; click, click, click (back spacing) Tap, Tap, Tap (re-writing)There, thats what you Ment to say, isn't it?
And there where letters he wrote I never got. Simple as that. He once saw one of his letters inside the 'family father's' notebook; weeks after he had written it. After that, he gave his letters to his family rep, who he felt was more likely to mail them. But there are still some that never got mailed. Simple as that.
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Deb, when I was in the Program, there was a special lingo. "Honesty" or "Get Honest!!!!", as it was often shouted, didn't mean the same thing as it means to most people. What it meant was "Confess to whatever thoughts or feelings or deeds we've already decided are true." After awhile, you want to get along and not be constantly screamed at, so you decide to adopt this paralell definition of the word so you'll know how to respond whenever your asked to.
Similarly, an attack had a different meaning. It meant questioning the group's dogma. I don't think you attacked this guy. I think you're asking questions about the program methods and philosophy. But he really and truely believes that this is a personal attack on his... what, integrity? Honesty?
Ever consider how nearly interchangable are words like advertise and proselytize?
But the large volume of huge text is pretty close to flooding. I'm going to go and remove the huge text tags, but I'll leave the content because it has become relavent to the discussion.
But please don't try me, anon. I have never banned or censored anyone because I didn't like what they had to say. Just take a look at any of a number of raunchy topics with the name Ginger in them. That would be me. Ginger Warbis aka Antigen, host of all things Fornits.com (but no relation to the nicer German guy named Wolf who hosts fornit.com and who sometimes forwards to me my misdirected email)
Now then. Exactly why do you want to be Anonymous? I'm not saying you're not allowed or that you don't have a good reason. I'm just curious to know as much about who you are as you know about me.
There is not a "fragment" in all nature, for every relative fragment of one thing is a full harmonious unit in itself.
-- John Muir
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Did he put the right address?
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Did the house "father" and/or family rep, who was constantly in touch with the family, not know the correct address?
Marijuana in its natural form is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man. By any measure of rational analysis marijuana can be safely used within the supervised routine of medical care.
Administrative Law Judge, Francis Young, DOJ/DEA
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Deborah - my response to sending a child to a program "against their will" is that if the child does not agree to go, and tells his parents there is nothing they can do about what he is doing, then I personally feel the parent needs to be a parent and do whatever it takes to get their child help - whether the kid agrees or not. Then the whole family can start healing. You have your beliefs on what works, as do I. It would be wonderful if the kid did agree, and some do, but most don't. Being a parent means caring enough to go with their gut feelings, get past the fear and just do it. They can always go and pick them up if they don't feel it's the right place to be. NONE of the parents knew if it would be, some find it's not and choose another school, or bring them home. To each his own.
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What's amazing about those testimonials is
a) no real names
b) the so-called doctor published in peer reviewed journals is a joke, claiming NYT article wouldn't pass peer review. NYT article would be more likely to pass peer review than a collection of anecdotes, which as he well knows, tell absolutely nothing about whether or not a treatment works. I fear for his patients if that's what he bases his care on-- and I bet his "peer reviewed" papers had co-authors!
c) WWASP expects the general public to believe a bunch of anonymous people (who could easily be the same person) more than the New York Times, which despite it having had some troubles of late, is still the most respected newspaper in the world.
they don't even provide their emails or phone numbers, which are provided on all the boards where WWASP tries to say they are all from the same person and which are clearly not if you call or email the people who post.
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Those parents probably didn't send anon letters. Idon't think wwasp wanted to post the last names publically due to the harrassment factor from those that don't share the same view.
I'll betcha that Tim Weiner received the full names as he contacted some of them personally and twisted and omitted much of what he was told.
believe it or not, whatever...
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All of the magazine shows full names - http://www.wwasp.com/source03/Dec-03-Source.pdf (http://www.wwasp.com/source03/Dec-03-Source.pdf) - granted there aren't the "hundreds" of testimonials in it, but each one has some great reading.
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The parent is ultimately incarcerating (that constitutes abuse to some) the teen against their will out of fear for what might happen to the kid. Various other fears are stated, but this seems to be the primary fear.
Look, the number one killer in this country is Heart Disease, and quickly climbing the charts is cancer. Both could be prevented with adequate nutrition, exercise, and the avoidance of toxins.
Americans slowly kill themselves everyday with their dietary choices and sedetary lifestlyes. Far more deaths due to this than illegal drugs and risky lifestyles. And, those same Americans train/condition their children to follow in their footsteps down this path to premature death.
Does that give me, or anyone else, the right to round up everyone who's overweight or exhibiting the early signs of heart disease and incarcerate them in fat farms against their will; isolated from the world so they can work MY program; and for an unspecified time at which I feel they are making better choices for themselves? Then defend my action by saying I did it out of love for them and to prevent their POSSIBLE premature death? Heaven help us if the Insurance Industry latches onto this idea.
No, this has nothing to do with love, in my opinion. And everything to do with fear. And that fear is exploited by those who stand to gain monetarily.
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No Deborah - me thinks you are the one grasping at straws to make sure you are right. You come off as an expert on wwasp programs. That's really funny - you are single handedly turning this into a bash in my opinion. Bash your own program experience on another thread. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought this thread was for serious debate on wwasp experiences. If you wanna turn it into all programs, then fine, clarify your experience with the program you are familiar with.
BTW, I would help a person who is overweight if they wanted it, but I would help a child experiencing bulemia/anorexia/cutting or a diabetic that isn't taking care of their needs to stay alive - I would do that in a heart beat without their agreement - what does love mean to you?
Ever heard the starfish story?
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Deborah, have you ever heard of a kid being truly incarcerated, like jail, against their will? I guess that makes it okay if a judge makes that decision. Thank goodness my kid never had to experience that kind of "help." LOL! :razz:
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The letters in a wwasp school are NOT censored. The kids can write anything their hearts desire, whether nice, or not. The family rep also has contact on a weekly basis with the parents.
My grandaughter was admitted to Casa by the Sea on November 2, 2002. During the first months, she was required to go to the computer area on every Monday and write a letter home (or to us, or to her siblings). In the first 6 weeks, 2 letters came to us. Two letters came to her mother also (I don't know if they were the same week or not). Of the 2 letters we got, both were oddly stilted, negative, not ranting, but simply stating (prophetically), "things are not what you have been told around here". The other weeks' letters simply disappeared.
During this period, the Odyssey family rep, Paola Segura, called the mother every Tuesday with a short update. Each call was similar: "...she is having some problems with the rules, but otherwise, she is doing fine." My grandaughter, upon returning home, told us she spent more than 2 early months in Worksheets, a very small white room with only a plastic resin chair, feet flat on the floor, hands by her sides, no schooling whatsoever, no physical activity save short periodic potty breaks, limited meals, including Thanksgiving, and no contact with the outside world, her peers, or her family. This was her existence from early November until sometime after the New Year. When recently asked about kids being on their knees, "is it true", she replied, "Yes, that's what R&R is all about". She also knew one girl in her family who had scars on her chin from continual repeated hog-tying episodes in R&R.
She also "chose out" of 3 successive Discovery seminars, not because of anything specific she said, but because of things she would not say. "If you don't say what they want you to, then they say you 'chose out', send you out and you wait another 6 weeks before they try again. You eventually learn to say what they want."
A child can write anything and everything he wants about WWASPS facilities. That missive, however, will seldom make it through THE CENSORS. Don't imagine for a moment it is uncensored open communication. Why do you think they have the kids use email (easily and anonymously delete-able) instead of handwriting? Would parents be comfortable with felt-marker blacked out chunks of letters?
It is vital that the Program have unfettered freedom to "mold" the minds of their internees. Parents who accept an evaluation of a minimum-wage, untrained, non-English-proficient guard grant to the Program their child's welfare. I absolutely am breathless when I consider that my grandchild was watched over by such marginal human beings, and was kept, as a Level II, from the outside world (including her parent) for 10 months of incarceration.
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Spots - I really do understand why you would want to believe your granddaughter and since I have ZERO experience of Casa by the Sea, I won't dispute this. It just seems odd,however, that the other schools don't censor mail, or should I say censor outbound mail. The two schools that I am familiar with don't use computers to write letters home. They're done the old fashioned way, writing by hand.
They do censor inbound mail for illegal items, not written content.
If your granddaughter was in worksheets and didn't complete discovery the first three times, what does that tell you about her needing to be exactly where she was? The kids that really don't need this level of help tend to fly through it. If what you just shared is what she really said, then she's got you right where she wants you and you seem to think that's okay. Hope it all works out, really.
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Your granddaughter kept herself at Level 2 - geez!
What I hear you saying is that you're better than other people and YOU'RE the only one good enough to be in her space, including her parents.
Thanks for sharing. :wink:
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I notice neither of you poor program fools wanted to comment on the months wasted away in worksheets; except to imply she must have deserved to sit motionless in a chair for weeks on end like some catatonic scitzoid.
I noticed you managed to ignore the girl with the scared chin from her frequent hog tieing. I suppose you feel she must've also been diserving of such treatment.
I garentee you; you would not have been able to ignore these things; or able to think it acceptable; before you went threw the seminairs.
And really, do you think the program is going to explain to you, they read your kids mail, and if it contains something they'd rather not explain, they fail to mail it?
There are programs that can treat you for cultic brainwashing and help you regain your ability to think for yourself. You should look into it.
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Just a little info:
Boundaries - Limits that you place on the behavior of others around you.
Walls - Limits that you insist on that shut people out.
Comparisons
about your needs vs. about the other person's behavior allows you to relate within limits vs. doesn't allow for relationship
Example
Tina had a boundary around the tone of voice people used with her. When people used a harsh or condescending tone of voice, she gently
explained how that affected her and requested that they speak to her differently. Winona also had a concern about how people spoke to her.
When someone used a loud or aggressive tone with her, she flew into a rage and criticized him for being rude to her.
Key Point
A boundary protects you from the things other people do that drain you or diminish you. Extensive boundaries allow you to stop the other
person before their behavior has an effect on you. Healthy boundaries give you more freedom and ease in relating to other human beings. When
you use your boundaries to judge others as wrong, insist on being right, or explain them in an aggressive or righteous way, they become
walls. They remove your ability to relate rather than increase it.
Benefits
A boundary saves you time and energy and keeps you out of conflict.
Walls become a source of conflict in your relationships.
***********
Lots of WALLS here!
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Spots wrote: "She also "chose out" of 3 successive Discovery seminars, not because of anything specific she said, but because of things she would not say. "If you don't say what they want you to, then they say you 'chose out', send you out and you wait another 6 weeks before they try again. You eventually learn to say what they want."
Spots, what makes you an expert on this? What was your experience in Discovery or have you taken yourself to a place of talking with kids that graduated? Doesn't sound like it. You've got yourself so tied up in negativity that I don't think you could find anything positive about anything that you had no control over.
Just an observation from what you wrote, it sounds like you may be using this girl to further your agenda. I think that's worse than anything that she created for herself at Casa.
You may want to learn from what is currently happening with PURE due to the defamation suit. It's one thing to KNOW something, it's another believe something, and yet another to outright state heresay as fact.
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On 2004-01-05 08:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I notice neither of you poor program fools wanted to comment on the months wasted away in worksheets; except to imply she must have deserved to sit motionless in a chair for weeks on end like some catatonic scitzoid.
I noticed you managed to ignore the girl with the scared chin from her frequent hog tieing. I suppose you feel she must've also been diserving of such treatment.
I garentee you; you would not have been able to ignore these things; or able to think it acceptable; before you went threw the seminairs.
And really, do you think the program is going to explain to you, they read your kids mail, and if it contains something they'd rather not explain, they fail to mail it?
There are programs that can treat you for cultic brainwashing and help you regain your ability to think for yourself. You should look into it."
Ignore? No, just passing on it. That girl could have chosen to be with her peers, but instead chose to be in worksheets, she knew the rules. And, a girl with a scarred chin? That's heresay. Show me the pictures. This is typical manipulation in ALL programs around the country and beyond.
It's easier for some to believe this without proof and play on the fears of parents looking for reasons to not get help for their family. Way more kids cry abuse than don't in these programs, all programs. What would be more outlandish is to get a letter from your child saying how wonderful it is! LOL!
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"And really, do you think the program is going to explain to you, they read your kids mail, and if it contains something they'd rather not explain, they fail to mail it?"
Sorry, forgot this one - that is one of the strangest statements I've heard thus far, really. I guess no parent would get any letters from their child in the beginning. Every parent I know has gotten the most horrible letters from their child in the beginning. I had many myself that I couldn't imagine if it had been sensored, could have made it through. It was full of the worse language and absolutely horrible statements that were NOT true, but I got 'em anyway. I wish there had been consequences for writing that stuff,but there wasn't because it just isn't true that the mail is censored, at least not in my kid's program. Can't speak for the others, but I do know kids from other programs that say the same thing.
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Let me explain a little better.
From your very first contact with wwasp you have been told that you will get negative letters that might be upsetting; but that its all lies.
You believe this, b/c your kid has so often lied to you.
When the letters arrive, you are already conditioned to ignore all thats upsetting; and only believe whats positive.
So, most of the mail is allowed threw.
However, on the occasions when something is said that is of a more substantial nature; and they don't wish to try and explain it; That letter you'll never see.
Maybe this isn't done in each and every wwasp program school; but it seems to be par for the coarse according to employees who have spoken about it.
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On 2004-01-06 07:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Let me explain a little better.
From your very first contact with wwasp you have been told that you will get negative letters that might be upsetting; but that its all lies.
You believe this, b/c your kid has so often lied to you.
When the letters arrive, you are already conditioned to ignore all thats upsetting; and only believe whats positive.
So, most of the mail is allowed threw.
However, on the occasions when something is said that is of a more substantial nature; and they don't wish to try and explain it; That letter you'll never see.
Maybe this isn't done in each and every wwasp program school; but it seems to be par for the coarse according to employees who have spoken about it.
"
Careful now, Anon. Would not want anybody do a WWF search on the key word "coarse".
God Bless America and ..... space -.
:wave:
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On 2004-01-06 07:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Let me explain a little better.
From your very first contact with wwasp you have been told that you will get negative letters that might be upsetting; but that its all lies.
You believe this, b/c your kid has so often lied to you.
When the letters arrive, you are already conditioned to ignore all thats upsetting; and only believe whats positive.
So, most of the mail is allowed threw.
However, on the occasions when something is said that is of a more substantial nature; and they don't wish to try and explain it; That letter you'll never see.
Maybe this isn't done in each and every wwasp program school; but it seems to be par for the coarse according to employees who have spoken about it.
"
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 9&start=40 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=&topic=3864&forum=9&start=40)
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Okay, let's debate on mail! Whatever...
Parents DON"T ignore the allegations their child writes in the letters. How stupid is that. They are warned about the tactics the kids use, but in most cases, when a letter alleging starvation, abuse, etc., etc., is written, most if not all parents are going to check the validity. If they freak out and decide it's true without checking the facts, then their darling comes home, all happy that they once again, pulled the proverbial wool over daddy's or mommy's eyes. If they check it out, they will find it's usually another manipulation and thier kid is exactly where they need to be. This kind of letter writing comes from ALL programs in the early stages of the stay. Go figure!
What you said about letters not making it home. Then please explain why they do and why freaked out parents (co-dependent's mostly) go pick up their poor abused child?
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when my kid wrote home he was starving; and all they fed him was beans and rice; it was true.
He lost something akin to 25 lbs in four months; eating everything he could get his hands on.
Yes, ignoring what your kids tell you is stupid alright; but its what you do.
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Anon wrote: They are warned about the tactics the kids use, but in most cases, when a letter alleging starvation, abuse, etc., etc., is written, most if not all parents are going to check the validity. If they freak out and decide it's true without checking the facts, then their darling comes home, all happy that they once again, pulled the proverbial wool over daddy's or mommy's eyes. If they check it out, they will find it's usually another manipulation and thier kid is exactly where they need to be. This kind of letter writing comes from ALL programs in the early stages of the stay. Go figure!
What you said about letters not making it home. Then please explain why they do and why freaked out parents (co-dependent's mostly) go pick up their poor abused child?
*************************
How does a concerned parent go about "checking the facts"? Talk to someone inside the program, the very program/people their child has accused of abuse? What kind of logic is that?
"Freaked out, co-dependent parents"?
What difference does it make to you what OTHER parents decide and do? Do you resent parents who CHOOSE to remove their kid, for whatever reason?
Why?
And the comment "little darling".
Do you dislike kids in general, or just those who you believe need "treatment"?
Let the parents decide for themselves through unmonitored communication with their child.
If you don't trust parents to make the right choices for their kids, then you have some unspoken motive or agenda- you stand to loose money or you need other parents to stay in the program to confirm that you are doing the right thing. Or as many have pointed out, you're a zealot who needs to feel you are changing the world, and resent parents who dash that illusion.
Who's co-dependent here?
PS Your comments and attitude seem to contradict what your anon buddy said:
"They can always go and pick them up if they don't feel it's the right place to be. NONE of the parents knew if it would be, some find it's not and choose another school, or bring them home. To each his own."
Which of you represent the program's attitude?
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-01-06 19:53 ]
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Deborah - Program attitude? There is no "program" attitude. Each person develops their own beliefs, Attitude is a poor choice of words for beliefs.
You asked Who's Co-dependent here? Don't know. But here is a checklist: A yes to three or more of these questions would indicate that codependency is likely to be an issue.
Do you avoid confrontation at all costs?
Do you feel humiliated by even the slightest criticism?
When someone you care about is uncommunicative, do you assume that you have done something wrong?
Are you deeply distressed by expressions of anger---even if they're not directed at you?
If your partner is having a bad day, do you feel guilty about being "up"?
Do you expect your partner to recognize and accommodate your emotional needs even though you are unable to articulate them?
When you join a gathering of friends or business associates, do you immediately scan faces to determine the emotional climate in the room?
If a friend or family member has a problem, is it your job to fix it?
Do you internalize perceived slights and insults, unable to address them directly, until a day when you astonish yourself and others with a tearful or angry outburst that might be triggered by a seemingly trivial incident?
At the end of the day, do you review your interactions with others and anguish about your choice of words?
Do you work hard to maintain composure in an emotional situation? Would you leave the room if you felt that your facial expression might "give you away?"
Are you a perfectionist?
If somebody bumps you (in a grocery store, for instance) do you apologize (just for being in the way).
Do you agonize over small imperfections in your garments, home or garden that others would be unlikely to notice?
Do you feel anxiety when other people have problems that you can't solve?
Do you find it difficult to be playful around other adults?
Do you find it embarrassing to be caught doing frivolous things by your partner (like reading a comic strip)?
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Surely you can't believe any of this describes Debra.
It's not like I really know the lady; but I've been reading her post with interest for months and I think it very apparent none of this could be used to describe her.
I can't think of any parent involved with the battle against abusive programs that can be put in the pigeon hole your trying to shove them in.
You'll have to come up with something else.
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No, it wasn't meant to describe Deborah.
It does describe many parents that are in the "rescue my kid from the program" mode. It's an acceptance issue. They want their kids to accept them and will do anything, even if isn't in their best interests to gain that acceptance.
Obviously it goes deeper than that, but the checklist just gets them to think. I'm co-dependent, and just being aware of the traits and getting help has been very effective in choosing another path.
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***It does describe many parents that are in the "rescue my kid from the program" mode. It's an acceptance issue. They want their kids to accept them and will do anything, even if isn't in their best interests to gain that acceptance.***
And SO WHAT if it is? Do you consider it your business what other parents CHOOSE to do? Or does your business suffer based on their choices? It's not your place to judge them if they CHOOSE not to participate in your personal growth program or seminar.
Again, why are you so judgmental of these parents. Why are you SOOOO obviously affected by the CHOICES other parents make?
Do any of these apply for you?
If a friend or family member has a problem, is it your job to fix it?
Are you a perfectionist?
Do you feel anxiety when other people have problems that you can't solve?
**********
Ah Oh, That's three. And I think there are a few more than were not listed.
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Ok,
I am reading that the mail is censored, but the parents get letters claiming abuse and starvation from the students, DOES anyone else see a problem here? or just an agenda by some people that clearly have no real experince but claim to be experts.
Ok, let me guess, they censor mail but aren't smart enough to censor the abuse, starvation etc that is in the letters because they have no creditintial and do not know how to read. Plus they are the scum of the earth.
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Btw, checklists for diagnosing "co-dependency" are about as scientific as horoscopes.
Codependency is the human condition-- it's caring about others and in most societies that are sane, it is valued not dismissed in favor of self-centeredness.
Second, anyone who would send a kid to a place and thinks being told to ignore accounts of abuse as "manipulation" is ok is either desperate and/or naive.
Because if all abuse is lies, ANY ABUSE CAN BE DONE and GO UNREPORTED AND UNCHALLENGED AND GO ON.
If all abuse is lies, sexual molestation and all manner of other horrors can easily go unchecked.
Prisons and hospitals have ombudsmen for complaints because they know that those in charge will automatically dismiss inmates and patients' complaints as "manipulation," whether or not they are true. To prevent abuses of power, such checks are needed because thoese who are confined are vulnerable. These systems were arrived out only after years of abuse and they are still far from perfect-- but they recognize that people in power will abuse that power if there is no oversight.
But in these schools, there is absolutely no one to advocate for the kids. The parents are told not to believe them. The kids are ignored. The program has its own interests.
So let's say a program has this ideology, but is well intentioned. They try to screen their employees well, but they cannot pay very much and so an abusive person or pedophile is bound to slip through at some point, particularly given the high turnover in this field and the high desirability of these jobs amongst those who want to abuse kids.
So now you've got a guy with absolute power over your daughter, and you aren't going to believe your lying kid and your kid is going to get abused.
Is this why you spent years trying to keep them safe and keep child abusers out of your neighborhoods? Only to suddenly find strangers more believable than your own child? Only to trust absolutely in the goodness of people working minimum wage jobs with no education or training?
How can you buy this?
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Deborah wrote: "But in these schools, there is absolutely no one to advocate for the kids. The parents are told not to believe them. The kids are ignored. The program has its own interests."
******
Excuse me? No one to advocate for the kids? Really? Hmmmm. They have a grievance procedure that works. I guess that doesn't count. The facilitators, the family reps, the therapists on staff, advocate for the kids, they advocate for the families. I guess that doesn't count either since they are paid for doing what they love. Other parents advocate for the kids.
I know you are comparing other programs with wwasps, but until you have inside knowledge and experience, save the inuendos and guesses. You really have no clue.
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On 2004-01-06 10:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"when my kid wrote home he was starving; and all they fed him was beans and rice; it was true.
He lost something akin to 25 lbs in four months; eating everything he could get his hands on.
Yes, ignoring what your kids tell you is stupid alright; but its what you do."
Why did your son only choose to eat rice and beans? Sounds like a self-imposed pity party to be rescued from having to follow rules. Sorry about the judgment - but I've seen it work too many times to get what they want.
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On 2004-01-07 21:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Deborah wrote: "But in these schools, there is absolutely no one to advocate for the kids. The parents are told not to believe them. The kids are ignored. The program has its own interests."
******
Excuse me? No one to advocate for the kids? Really? Hmmmm. They have a grievance procedure that works. I guess that doesn't count. The facilitators, the family reps, the therapists on staff, advocate for the kids, they advocate for the families. I guess that doesn't count either since they are paid for doing what they love. Other parents advocate for the kids.
I know you are comparing other programs with wwasps, but until you have inside knowledge and experience, save the inuendos and guesses. You really have no clue. "
Bravo, Bravo, Bravo, Beautifully Put. The critics claim to be experts in this industry but have no experince, go figure.
:nworthy: :nworthy: :tup: :tup: :tup:
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*** Deborah wrote: "But in these schools, there is absolutely no one to advocate for the kids. The parents are told not to believe them. The kids are ignored. The program has its own interests." ***
You have misquoted. An anon made that comment. I happen to agree, with one exception- I don't refer to or consider these facilities to be "schools".
Still wondering why it matters and why you all have such harsh judgments about parents who choose to remove their children, and teens who report abuse. No system in the real world relies on the staff accused of abuse to confirm or dispell it.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-01-08 04:54 ]
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Okay yes the schools have a form the kids can fill out if they feel they are being treated un-just.....problem they recieve consequences to do so.
How about that confession letter? Kids are made to re-write them if they are not dirty enough (my experience) and when the parent doesn't buy into the confession in stating all things listed are not true as they have not been able to accomplish all acts listed....the family rep has them change it once again....and again...and again...until the parent buys in. So in turn the manipulation, games, untruths, etc. has now been re-confirmed and continues to be mastered vs. what is promised...honesty, values, morals, self-esteem. blah blah blah....again no need to agree this was my experience of the events that happened.
Since everything must be earned from shaving your legs to off campus outings......there is no reward system in between that honors the "right or working (as they like to call it) choices". The end result being manipulating and faking illness for a ride to the Dr. Again my experience.... Which costs the parents more $$$$ in Dr. Visits and paying staff to take them there!
Yes I made the choice to send her there..... Yes I did the seminars (all of them as was promised it would make the results better) I complied to everything they asked. Why? Because I believed in the program at the time and I believed in my daughter and yes because I loved her more than anything. So do you find yourself asking why would you send her away if you loved her? Well I truly believed it was the only way to save her from herself. I thought this was the only way to not have her die on the streets. I didn't want her in the Juvey system as I though it would teach her things she didn't know and if I had to spend my money I would spend it to help her vs. harm her (that is the real joke)! Hook line and sinker I bought it.
I have been living the 2 year aftermath of utilizing this program. It made things far worse than better.
After all the time in the program she still ended up in the legal system. After spending 20 months in Utah she came home and spent another 4 months in the juvenile system. It is true that not everyone in the juvenile system is equiped with an education to handle these issues either. Although I have to pay for her visit there....they never made promises they couldn't keep.
Yes I get that these are her choices however the choices and the game moved up in anti after the utah stay.
It has been my experience that WWASPers do not want to hear the bad things in the program however reality says there is bad with everything that is good. If someone states their experience WWASPers are all over them trying to change their experience. Perhaps looking into others experiences will make things better as working out the issues is the key not ignoring them.
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On 2004-01-08 08:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Okay yes the schools have a form the kids can fill out if they feel they are being treated un-just.....problem they recieve consequences to do so.
How about that confession letter? Kids are made to re-write them if they are not dirty enough (my experience) and when the parent doesn't buy into the confession in stating all things listed are not true as they have not been able to accomplish all acts listed....the family rep has them change it once again....and again...and again...until the parent buys in. So in turn the manipulation, games, untruths, etc. has now been re-confirmed and continues to be mastered vs. what is promised...honesty, values, morals, self-esteem. blah blah blah....again no need to agree this was my experience of the events that happened.
Since everything must be earned from shaving your legs to off campus outings......there is no reward system in between that honors the "right or working (as they like to call it) choices". The end result being manipulating and faking illness for a ride to the Dr. Again my experience.... Which costs the parents more $$$$ in Dr. Visits and paying staff to take them there!
Yes I made the choice to send her there..... Yes I did the seminars (all of them as was promised it would make the results better) I complied to everything they asked. Why? Because I believed in the program at the time and I believed in my daughter and yes because I loved her more than anything. So do you find yourself asking why would you send her away if you loved her? Well I truly believed it was the only way to save her from herself. I thought this was the only way to not have her die on the streets. I didn't want her in the Juvey system as I though it would teach her things she didn't know and if I had to spend my money I would spend it to help her vs. harm her (that is the real joke)! Hook line and sinker I bought it.
I have been living the 2 year aftermath of utilizing this program. It made things far worse than better.
After all the time in the program she still ended up in the legal system. After spending 20 months in Utah she came home and spent another 4 months in the juvenile system. It is true that not everyone in the juvenile system is equiped with an education to handle these issues either. Although I have to pay for her visit there....they never made promises they couldn't keep.
Yes I get that these are her choices however the choices and the game moved up in anti after the utah stay.
It has been my experience that WWASPers do not want to hear the bad things in the program however reality says there is bad with everything that is good. If someone states their experience WWASPers are all over them trying to change their experience. Perhaps looking into others experiences will make things better as working out the issues is the key not ignoring them.
"
No program can help your child if your child does not want to change- bottom line!!! That is why this brain washing is a bunch of garbage- a person must at least have a desire to change to change. The only promise that or warranty that a WWASP affiliated school makes is their warranty, that if a child graduates then they can come back for 60 days free of charge. So if they graduate a program they must feel that this teen has truly attemted to change and the teen have seen some positive results and made some good life changing choices. Something to think about.
I wish you well with getting any issues resolved with your child.
The program works, I have seen hundreds of teens giving the chance to change and make a better life for themselves.
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You didn't say if your daughter graduated. Sometimes that is the difference between success and the choices she chose to make, sometimes not. Your daughter's program is not your program. You each have your own way of applying what you learned.
I do not agree with the confession letter experience. There were no point consequences for not being honest. It was what it was...the beginning of honesty. If you didn't agree with what she wrote, then you were able to communicate that, right? They don't make promises, if they did, what were they? Just a guess, but did you expect more of your daughter than she delivered? Are you blaming the staff for something here?
Nothing in place between "privileges?" I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Working choices for a lot of the kids is the self-satisfaction that they are moving toward a higher level and they CAN do it. That comes from "within" not from "without." I would like to hear more from you on this.
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Anonymous wrote: " Okay yes the schools have a form the kids can fill out if they feel they are being treated un-just.....problem they recieve consequences to do so."
I don't believe that, unless, of course, the grievance was found to be manipulation. Her peers and staff and director would make the decision. Was it a grievance based on manipulation, or do you feel it was an honest grievance? I'd also like to hear more on this since I'm making assumptions here.
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On 2004-01-08 08:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Okay yes the schools have a form the kids can fill out if they feel they are being treated un-just.....problem they recieve consequences to do so.
How about that confession letter? Kids are made to re-write them if they are not dirty enough (my experience) and when the parent doesn't buy into the confession in stating all things listed are not true as they have not been able to accomplish all acts listed....the family rep has them change it once again....and again...and again...until the parent buys in. So in turn the manipulation, games, untruths, etc. has now been re-confirmed and continues to be mastered vs. what is promised...honesty, values, morals, self-esteem. blah blah blah....again no need to agree this was my experience of the events that happened.
Since everything must be earned from shaving your legs to off campus outings......there is no reward system in between that honors the "right or working (as they like to call it) choices". The end result being manipulating and faking illness for a ride to the Dr. Again my experience.... Which costs the parents more $$$$ in Dr. Visits and paying staff to take them there!
Yes I made the choice to send her there..... Yes I did the seminars (all of them as was promised it would make the results better) I complied to everything they asked. Why? Because I believed in the program at the time and I believed in my daughter and yes because I loved her more than anything. So do you find yourself asking why would you send her away if you loved her? Well I truly believed it was the only way to save her from herself. I thought this was the only way to not have her die on the streets. I didn't want her in the Juvey system as I though it would teach her things she didn't know and if I had to spend my money I would spend it to help her vs. harm her (that is the real joke)! Hook line and sinker I bought it.
I have been living the 2 year aftermath of utilizing this program. It made things far worse than better.
After all the time in the program she still ended up in the legal system. After spending 20 months in Utah she came home and spent another 4 months in the juvenile system. It is true that not everyone in the juvenile system is equiped with an education to handle these issues either. Although I have to pay for her visit there....they never made promises they couldn't keep.
Yes I get that these are her choices however the choices and the game moved up in anti after the utah stay.
It has been my experience that WWASPers do not want to hear the bad things in the program however reality says there is bad with everything that is good. If someone states their experience WWASPers are all over them trying to change their experience. Perhaps looking into others experiences will make things better as working out the issues is the key not ignoring them.
"
I see nothing wrong with consumers (and that's what these parents are) discussing their experience with a product (e.g. one of these programs, schools, camps for struggling teens)
on a public forum. Anon has a very good point: "Perhaps looking into others experiences will make things better as working out the issues is the key to not ignoring them".
To program parents, my suggestion would be to be mindful of what really is at stake: Children's safety and well-being. What harm is there in making a sincere effort to listen to these so called "disgruntled" parents (again, I remind you they are the consumer) to gleen information that helps (not harms) these programs to do a better job? No product is so perfect that it can not be made even better. Second, the tendency for program parents to *defend* against negative feedback serves no purpose except to absolve the program owners and operators from their obligation to address the concerns of their clients. Past, Present and Future. Quite frankly, in this business, it is imperative that these organizations recognize the value of CHANGE within their own ranks, not just their policies and procedures. Keeping pace with the competition should not be a litigious game. It should be based on creating and promoting a superior product. One that strives to deliver what is promised, and if they miss the mark, work to correct the situation, instead of blaming the consumer as the first line of defense.
:wave:
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Anon - I couldn't agree with you more. That's why I read everything that is written and respond from my own experience. I have said lately that an investigation would be a good thing, so bring it on. It may finally put to rest any questions the public may have. There will always be disgruntled parents in this industry. And what needs to be changed should be changed. There have been many changes and it continues to change for the better. WWASPS never professed to be "perfect." What their program provides works in most families, but there's always room for improvement. I just read in The Source that they are changing the initial seminars for the new kids and have changed the Visions seminar to something that looks to be more effective in helping the dynamics of the whole family. The whole program is based on change and every entity looks to be open to this.
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This topic, started by Ginger as an effort to really discuss something, is very active. It would appear to have, maybe, 6 or 8 regular posters, with an interesting mix of "regular-but-not-on-this-topic" people...meaning several other forum folks read here regularly. Hmmm...we have a larger audience than we think.
I am impressed with the caliber of opinions, grammar, etc., but if you look closely, you will probably find that we are faced with just 2 WWASPS supporters. One woman has a nephew who emerged from Cross Creek a while ago a significantly-changed individual. OK. She also seems to be the same person who refers to the 100's of satisfied customers (or 1000's, depending on how ludicrous she feels) she personally knows. Nevermind that she never refers to these 100's [or 1000's] of folks by name, personal knowledge, anecdotal experiences, etc., except to point to The Source magazine for her, uhmmm, source. One wonders why such a distant relative spends hours reading this forum and adamantly attacking every post with rebuttal, especially since her rebuttals center mostly on "they don't do what you [and literally 100's of other kids] say".
Our second Anon who seems hell-bent of rebutting each post is identifiable by her syntax, which mostly is LARGE-SIZE FONT, a horrible breach of Internet etiquette that she has recently discovered how to do. Is this the same Anon who bitterly demands, "Please do not avoid the question" or "Please answer the question". Saying please isn't going to gloss over the nasty demands from some etheral harpy out there, and does she really expect we intelligent and informed posters to "fess up" and bow to her demands to answer her hostile questions? Like...does she really have and "questions" that are not attacks. Lady, didn't you take seriously your Debate class when you were in Harvard? Your style is right up there on the list of ineffective arguing. Oh, well, maybe you have to have at least 3 check-offs from the List of Stupid Debating Techniques to really fit into the category of Stupid Debater.
FWIW, I just fell into the category of Stupid Debater by responding to these Anons. Oh well, too much coffee this morning. I must go out to the barn to scoop poop, as that has some real purpose as opposed to shoveling around crap on this board.
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I have read the responses and see that perhaps some agree that all things need to be looked at to make a change in the system. It isn't about right vs. wrong it is about all things have room for improvement and all voices "experiences" warrant truth.
Yes WWASP has the 60 day guarantee for those who graduate. What Guarantee do they warrant for those that have learned all they can vs. graduation? Do all those kids fail? No Is change a choice? Yes it is however to build self-esteem doesn't start with the tearing of one down. Was that learned from a manipulation letter? No it was learned from a one on one session I sat in on. Did the therapist get changed? Yes after I addressed my concerns with the director. At the time of this change the family rep confided in my family that she knew it was not a working relationship however she kept this quiet. So what happened to the complaint form my daughter filled out about it? She received consequences for manipulating vs. working. Was she manipulating? No I watched it and yes it was after I had been involved for 10 months and completed all required seminars.
My point is there is room for improvement and the only way to get the issues resolved is to listen to others experience. Ones experience can not be changed because of others dis-belief in the facts or their need to continue to wear the blinders to see no wrong. As I said before there is good and bad in every thing.
I understand the difference between her program and mine. However that does not change the experience.
You do not want to believe about the confession letter? Fine, I respect that however it was my experience and that had nothing to do with manipulation on the part of my daughter.
Yes things have changed as far as my expectations and the need to control and the game itself. I know I can only control my choices and she has to live with hers. I didn't expect a robot or miracles however I didn't expect all I received.
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On 2004-01-08 09:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Anon - I couldn't agree with you more. That's why I read everything that is written and respond from my own experience. I have said lately that an investigation would be a good thing, so bring it on. It may finally put to rest any questions the public may have. There will always be disgruntled parents in this industry. And what needs to be changed should be changed. There have been many changes and it continues to change for the better. WWASPS never professed to be "perfect." What their program provides works in most families, but there's always room for improvement. I just read in The Source that they are changing the initial seminars for the new kids and have changed the Visions seminar to something that looks to be more effective in helping the dynamics of the whole family. The whole program is based on change and every entity looks to be open to this. "
Thanks, Anon. I don't know much about these seminars you speak of, except from what I have read in general about LGAT seminars. However, they do appear to be a "flash point" based on the controversial experience of persons (adults and children) who have experienced them first hand. More definitive discussion/debate on this component of these programs would be highly productive. Another area of interest is the use of inhouse referrals to boost enrollment. While at first blush it does not seem inappropriate to reward parents who refer other parents with a free month's tuition (or other forms of compensation), it seems to me this practice has spawned a lucrative cottage industry that is in dire need of oversight to guard against the exploitation of families and children. I am curious as to whether this is a widespread problem within the industry, at large? In other words, of the hundreds of programs for teens with behavioral problems, how many of them are paying parents (one way or another) to recruit other families?
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Spots
My posts on my experience was intended for the serious debate on the issue of Teen Programs. It was not my intention to annoy you or dis what was started on this board. :smile:
m
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Anon - the seminars are something you would need to experience first hand. I'm not really sure a discussion would be anything but that, a discussion. The seminars are open to the public.
As for the referrals. Parents that ran into nothingness, brick walls, restrictions, etc., can share with other parents their experience of the wwasps schools/programs. They are not the ones that do the admissions or even determine if the child is a candidate for admission. They have admissions staff for that. They simply share parent to parent and the parent can decide for themselves. I honestly don't know of a parent that said you have to do this, or twisted their arm. With the tuition costs, private pay, it's awesome that this program will extend a free month based on their putting themselves out there. I don't think they pay educational consultants and a lot of that has caused ed cons to not recommend them. Some even go so far as to say how bad they are if they are asked by a parent considering them.
Bottom line is the wwasps affilated parents are sharing an option, no more, no less. And, getting a much needed break on tution costs. Win/Win.
I can't speak about other programs doing this, they seem to have educational consultants to do that for them.
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***More definitive discussion/debate on this component of these programs would be highly productive. Another area of interest is the use of inhouse referrals to boost enrollment.***
More discussion on Seminars on these threads:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 9&start=10 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=&topic=2587&forum=9&start=10)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... 9&start=20 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=2399&forum=9&start=20)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... 9&start=10 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=2757&forum=9&start=10)
On Ontological Coaching:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... 9&start=30 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=2757&forum=9&start=30)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 9&start=10 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=&topic=3093&forum=9&start=10)
And on Referring:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2769&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2769&forum=9)
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Bottom line is the wwasps affilated parents are sharing an option, no more, no less. And, getting a much needed break on tution costs. Win/Win.
I need to add: If the referral results in an admission, they get the break tuition cost...
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On 2004-01-08 09:33:00, spots wrote:
"This topic, started by Ginger as an effort to really discuss something, is very active. It would appear to have, maybe, 6 or 8 regular posters, with an interesting mix of "regular-but-not-on-this-topic" people...meaning several other forum folks read here regularly. Hmmm...we have a larger audience than we think.
I am impressed with the caliber of opinions, grammar, etc., but if you look closely, you will probably find that we are faced with just 2 WWASPS supporters. One woman has a nephew who emerged from Cross Creek a while ago a significantly-changed individual. OK. She also seems to be the same person who refers to the 100's of satisfied customers (or 1000's, depending on how ludicrous she feels) she personally knows. Nevermind that she never refers to these 100's [or 1000's] of folks by name, personal knowledge, anecdotal experiences, etc., except to point to The Source magazine for her, uhmmm, source. One wonders why such a distant relative spends hours reading this forum and adamantly attacking every post with rebuttal, especially since her rebuttals center mostly on "they don't do what you [and literally 100's of other kids] say".
Our second Anon who seems hell-bent of rebutting each post is identifiable by her syntax, which mostly is LARGE-SIZE FONT, a horrible breach of Internet etiquette that she has recently discovered how to do. Is this the same Anon who bitterly demands, "Please do not avoid the question" or "Please answer the question". Saying please isn't going to gloss over the nasty demands from some etheral harpy out there, and does she really expect we intelligent and informed posters to "fess up" and bow to her demands to answer her hostile questions? Like...does she really have and "questions" that are not attacks. Lady, didn't you take seriously your Debate class when you were in Harvard? Your style is right up there on the list of ineffective arguing. Oh, well, maybe you have to have at least 3 check-offs from the List of Stupid Debating Techniques to really fit into the category of Stupid Debater.
FWIW, I just fell into the category of Stupid Debater by responding to these Anons. Oh well, too much coffee this morning. I must go out to the barn to scoop poop, as that has some real purpose as opposed to shoveling around crap on this board."
The problem some people seem to have is an ability to get as good as they give. Hence the surge in personal attacks and/or sarcasm hurled back and forth until somebody cries uncle (or diverts attention away from the topic of discussion). BTW: Does anybody even know what the topic is or rather, was?
:silly:
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The problem some people seem to have is an INability to get as good as they give. Hence the surge in personal attacks and/or sarcasm hurled back and forth until somebody cries uncle (or diverts attention away from the topic of discussion). BTW: Does anybody even know what the topic is or rather, was?
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Sorry about the typo!
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On 2004-01-08 13:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Bottom line is the wwasps affilated parents are sharing an option, no more, no less. And, getting a much needed break on tution costs. Win/Win.
I need to add: If the referral results in an admission, they get the break tuition cost...
"
I don't know, this whole concept makes me squeemish. Some of these parents have websites that are actively recruiting "options" as you call them. This seems more than just a way to get a much-needed break on the tuition costs of a single child. I mean, 10 referrals in one month would pretty much pay for the child's entire program and then some, would it not?
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Deborah. I know you want answers to all you linked to on a personal level, but you won't find it in links, or words. The seminars really are something you would need to experience for yourself. If you're not interested in going, but want answers on this forum, doubt it will be.
Seminars: It's a view shared by a few. No one person gets the same thing out of the same seminar. It's different for each participant.
The coaches are hired by the parents during the transition phase, coming home phase. It's not mandatory, but a choice. How wonderful to have that support available. Don't other programs just say "bye" and don't offer much in the way of support once the child has graduated? That would be another thing to look at.
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[/quote]
I don't know, this whole concept makes me squeemish. Some of these parents have websites that are actively recruiting "options" as you call them. This seems more than just a way to get a much-needed break on the tuition costs of a single child. I mean, 10 referrals in one month would pretty much pay for the child's entire program and then some, would it not?"
[/quote]
Referral means referral to an admissions representative. It does not mean it would result in an admission. So if a parent is contacted by 10 individuals and they chose to admit, which is highly unlikely, then they would receive 10 months of tuition for their child.
Many parents "refer" but very few result in an actual admission. Most are just looking at options. If you look at the websites, most are not parents anyway.
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True, some of these websites appear to be connected with independent referral agents, though it is odd they only seem to promote a certain brand of programs and schools. Others, it is hard to tell who owns and operates them. I am serious! They are anonymous. No names, bios, just the proverbial test on how to tell if your child is close to going over the edge and needs a program asap. Shouldn't there be a law or something that makes these people disclose who they are? At a minimum, I think parents have a right to know who they are dealing with, don't you?
:???:
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Call the numbers and see who answers. That is who you are dealing with.
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***Deborah. I know you want answers to all you linked to on a personal level, but you won't find it in links, or words.***
Not actually. I've read the information and even once found myself in a workshop based on the same philosophy. I discovered this a couple of days into the 8-day event.
I offered the links for those who would like to read previous discussions on the topics, rather than duplicate them in this thread. Worth the read. People should know what they're signing up for.
I have to wonder how much recruiting would be going on if parents weren't compensated.
I wonder too what the record is for number of referrals.
I wonder too if W created this method of referal because the majority of Ed Cons would not refer to their facilities.
Seems to be an excellent marketing plan- well designed ponzi scheme. I don't see parents of other programs hitting the streets with pamphlets, contacting every authority figure and official in their county with information on their chosen program, and for that matter, relatively few of them even post on message boards. They might if there was a financial incentive.
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On 2004-01-08 14:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Call the numbers and see who answers. That is who you are dealing with. "
NO! If these people can't say who they are upfront, then that is a big red flag. All anybody has in this business is their GOOD NAME, or not, as the case may be. I say disclose who you are BEFORE you ask parents to call. Why should parents have to call somebody to find out who they are dealing with? That's just plain dumb.
:silly:
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http://www.resourcerealizations.com/ind ... tions.com/ (http://www.resourcerealizations.com/index.cfm?url=http://www.resourcerealizations.com/)
This will show what they are signing up for. If your seminar was 8 days, then how could it be based on what these are? I'm sure you've seen the site above, but 8 days seems excessive unless they were trying to cram it all in one seminar.
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I've read the information and even once found myself in a WORKSHOP based on the SAME PHILOSOPHY.
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On 2004-01-08 15:02:00, Deborah wrote:
"I've read the information and even once found myself in a WORKSHOP based on the SAME PHILOSOPHY.
"
You mean Personal Growth?
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On 2004-01-08 14:41:00, Deborah wrote:
"***Deborah. I know you want answers to all you linked to on a personal level, but you won't find it in links, or words.***
Not actually. I've read the information and even once found myself in a workshop based on the same philosophy. I discovered this a couple of days into the 8-day event.
I offered the links for those who would like to read previous discussions on the topics, rather than duplicate them in this thread. Worth the read. People should know what they're signing up for.
I have to wonder how much recruiting would be going on if parents weren't compensated.
I wonder too what the record is for number of referrals.
I wonder too if W created this method of referal because the majority of Ed Cons would not refer to their facilities.
Seems to be an excellent marketing plan- well designed ponzi scheme. I don't see parents of other programs hitting the streets with pamphlets, contacting every authority figure and official in their county with information on their chosen program, and for that matter, relatively few of them even post on message boards. They might if there was a financial incentive. "
Your going to love this!!! What if it was more than money, but somthing they believe in because they know it works, they have seen their whole family change and their lives because of these awesome programs, people who have experinced life changing positive events are very passionate about their new success and want to share with others, like Mormon Missionaries,WWASPS parents who are not paid, but go 2 years and acutally pay their own way. It is amazing once some one thinks of helping others, how powerfull these people can be.
Believe it or not their is some people who have made positive changes in their lives and want to share their experince with others
But some people will never change.
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That's what I love about this thread! So many different views! Love it! :smile:
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OMG! Don't get Deborah started on Mormon's. Hopefully she'll respond in a separate thread on her view of Mormons, again.
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Top Fund Raiser For Your Family
The WWASP programs are very unique and offer one of the best cash incentives that a program family could want. How does this sound: ?FREE MONTH IN PROGRAM!? Doesn?t that grab your attention? I suggest that you look at it this way - You can earn thousands of dollars by sharing your heart and experience with others in your community. It is easy to do. You do not need to be a salesperson looking for the ?close?. If you can take a stand, be committed, tell your story of why you placed your child in a program and be willing to give information to those that are looking for you then you can make the referral program the biggest asset in your financial package. Have you developed a list of professional to include: Police, Judges, Probations, Attorneys, Psychologists, Psychiatrists, Psychiatric Acute Care Centers, School Counselors, Principals, Youth Activity Directors, Parent Groups, Tough Love Groups, etc. Have you requested copies of some of the marketing material from Teen Help? The Teen Drug Use ? 34 Warning Signs is popular and the first to be taken at meetings. Now take that list of names and addresses and type it out on the computer if possible. Make a form letter and send the letter to each person on the list with two or three flyers. Do it again in one week. Do it again in two weeks. Do it again in two more weeks. Keep doing it over the course of two to three months. Unless your list is going to penguins on Adak Island in Alaska, you will obtain results.
How about creating a ?help my child? campaign at your office or with friends and acquaintances.
Why not create a ?sales? table at a church or social function? Set up a tabletop and offer the Landre story and it?s products as fundraiser items. Success stories have resulted in funds raised in excess of $500 in such a process. The Foundation has products and ideas to help you be successful.
And the list goes on. Be creative yet remember your objective. A number of families have offset their expenses by 25-50% by using the above methods. And, the Foundation is an asset in your process for we have the experience, products and systems in place to make it happen.
****************************************
That's a pretty heavy sales pitch. They even provide the promotional materials...for a fee of course.
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***You mean Personal Growth?***
Do you know what philosophy the seminars are based on? Can you talk about EST/Lifespring?
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This has gone from "abuse" to belittling parents for sharing what has worked for them. Are you pissed because your son's program didn't offer a way to offset the tuition? What is your purpose, if I may ask?
Your post is amusing.
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On 2004-01-08 15:21:00, Deborah wrote:
"
***You mean Personal Growth?***
Do you know what philosophy the seminars are based on? Can you talk about EST/Lifespring?"
No, I have NO experience with the above.
Many things are "based on" what has come before. Cars, companies, electronics, and yes, personal growth.
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If you've attended the seminars then you know 'something' about it. Did they not tell you how their method came to be?
If you ever decide you want to know more click the links I provided. And don't miss these:
Pathology as ?Personal Growth?: A Participant-Observation Study of Lifespring Training
http://www.caic.org.au/psyther/lifespring/pathology.htm (http://www.caic.org.au/psyther/lifespring/pathology.htm)
The Skeptic?s Dictionary
http://skepdic.com/landmark.html (http://skepdic.com/landmark.html)
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Anon Writes:
"Your going to love this!!! What if it was more than money, but somthing they believe in because they know it works, they have seen their whole family change and their lives because of these awesome programs, people who have experinced life changing positive events are very passionate about their new success and want to share with others, like Mormon Missionaries,WWASPS parents who are not paid, but go 2 years and acutally pay their own way. It is amazing once some one thinks of helping others, how powerfull these people can be."
Okay, this statement raises a very troubling question about I.N.D.O.C.T.R.I.N.A.T.I.O.N.
WWASPS parents (like Mormon Missionaries) volunteer their time and resources to zealously spread the word ... or rather, the Source of their "new success". Well, Anon is right about one thing. Self-Adulation is intoxicating.
:scared:
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Let me pose some questions to those who think paying people to recruit others is OK:
1) Do you disclose that you are paid when you recruit others? If not, why not?
2) If you saw a doctor hyping a new drug, would you want to know whether he was paid by the pharmaceutical company that sells it? Would you be more skeptical of him if he didn't disclose and you later learned about this? Why then is it OK for parents to do?
3) Do you think ads should be labeled in news media or is it ok for reporters to not disclose that they've been paid by the company they are praising? What's the difference between this and what WWASP does?
4) would you want to know whether a celebrity who hawks a product on an informercial or goes on the Today show to say how wonderful Viagra is was paid by the industry?
5) Why is paying for referrals considered unethical in the rest of healthcare and in some instances, illegal, if it's just OK to pitch something that you love and happen to be paid for?
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On 2004-01-08 16:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Let me pose some questions to those who think paying people to recruit others is OK:
1) Do you disclose that you are paid when you recruit others? If not, why not?
2) If you saw a doctor hyping a new drug, would you want to know whether he was paid by the pharmaceutical company that sells it? Would you be more skeptical of him if he didn't disclose and you later learned about this? Why then is it OK for parents to do?
3) Do you think ads should be labeled in news media or is it ok for reporters to not disclose that they've been paid by the company they are praising? What's the difference between this and what WWASP does?
4) would you want to know whether a celebrity who hawks a product on an informercial or goes on the Today show to say how wonderful Viagra is was paid by the industry?
5) Why is paying for referrals considered unethical in the rest of healthcare and in some instances, illegal, if it's just OK to pitch something that you love and happen to be paid for?
"
I don't think Specialty Boarding Schools are considered Mental Health or Health Care industry, If they were in those industries they would be at least three times the price of what most current tuitions.
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Wow, lots on this board today about fear!
No resolution in debating the seminars. I took the time to read the first link provided by Deborah on LifeSpring. Though there are some similarities in exercises, the interpretations by the writer were not my personal experience for the mostpart. I agree on becoming aware and taking responsibility for choices.
I know many parents and others in my seminars, both participants and staffers, that are in the health care industry: psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, nurses, doctors and are still applying what they learned. I guess that why the Dr. Phil's and the Marianne Williamson's are so successful, they get you to think for yourself and see things you haven't seen, if you're open.
I didn't have a trainer that told me what I was supposed to think, or required to talk, share, etc., it was a choice. I know if you want to look at a dark side, you'll find it, in anything. Even the dark side can be a great learning experience (Dark Side of the Light Chasers, Debbie Ford)
I did notice at the bottom a disclaimer regarding accuracy, but I wouldn't know, I wasn't there. Is it not human nature to resist change?
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Anon Writes:
"I don't think Specialty Boarding Schools are considered Mental Health or Health Care industry, If they were in those industries they would be at least three times the price of what most current tuitions."
Anon, you are grossly misinformed. What kind of kids end up in a SS or program? Kids who are inefficient and/or not living up to the expectations and demands of their parents and teachers. This is the primary criteria for growing up in a **school** surrounded by an 8 foot tall chain link fence topped with hurricane wire. Emotional Growth Boarding Schools? What would you expect the industry to call a parent-funded adolescent lock-down facility? Happy Locked-Up Teens R Us?
:idea:
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***I don't think Specialty Boarding Schools are considered Mental Health or Health Care industry, If they were in those industries they would be at least three times the price of what most current tuitions.***
I'm wondering now if you've really been brainwashed or have just failed to educate yourself, or for some reason would like to put a false spin on reality. Of course, SBS, TBS, RTC are part of the Mental Health Industry. The ones who have FT "professionals" on staff ARE expensive. And as critics claim, the less expensive ones are so because they don't hire FT "professionals". Further, if these facilities are not mental health facilties, then how are parents being reimbursed? Insurance companies don't pay for traditional boarding schools or tough-love intervention.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /oe02.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1999/6/oe02.html)
Excerpts:
The difference between a Residential Treatment Center, for example, and an Emotional Growth School depends on the different emphases each places on the use of Psychiatry, Therapy, Structure (he used the term Milieu), Education, and Recreation. For example, a Residential Treatment Center will emphasize Psychiatry, Therapy and Therapeutic Structure in its program, with only minor elements of Recreation and Education. On the other hand, an Emotional Growth School is basically a mirror image of a RTC, in that the emphasis is on Structure, Education, and Recreation/activity, with only a minor role being played by Therapy and Psychiatry.
Many at that time felt that by applying scientific techniques from the medical community to mental health problems, they were on the verge of creating a miracle, that is, a society with a definitive solution to age-old behavior and emotional problems. This dream, plus amazing profits, was the driving force behind a major building boom in the seventies by hospitals and other facilities to treat all kinds of mental health conditions for young people through such institutions as youth psychiatric hospitals and wards, drug treatment programs and Residential Treatment Centers. Yet, 30 years later, reeling from accusations of ?warehousing,? ?outrageous costs,? and frequent ?lack-luster outcomes,? the mental health industry is seeing major changes. What happened?
Even in 1969, there was a considerable backlash to the direction the mental health establishment was going. Calling the prevalent mental health approach ?insensitive to our humanness,? and ?an out-of-balance extreme use of the scientific method,? a large number of alternatives were developed in the sixties and seventies challenging the prevailing ?scientific mental health? philosophy. Created mostly by lay people, movements such as AA, Synonon, Christian counseling, est and many more strove to prove that the factors of relationships, spirituality, adult role models and emotional maturity, the things discounted by mental health clinicians of the time, were really the most important keys to healing.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /oe05.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1995/2/oe05.html)
THE MARATHON WORKSHOP and its value as a counseling tool in emotional growth schools
Where did these workshops come from? From creative minds. They came from often controversial influences and beginnings ? Synanon, Lifespring, est, ? out of the ?60?s ? and from many of the earliest creative innovators in the mental health field.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een02.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2000/5/seen02.html)
The article traced Tranquility Bay?s TASK seminars back through Lifespring, est, to the Spanish Inquisition, the anti-Papist trials, and Chinese thought control or ?reeducation.? As you might imagine, the general tone is hostile.
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I know this is a lengthy thread, but please go back and read some of what is written. the criteria is not about kids not living up to their parents expectations for the mostpart, though that exists.
This seems to be a statement from someone who was never a parent of a troubled teen. Correct me if I'm wrong.
These are good kids making destructive choices, dangerous choices whose parents love them. BTW, I don't know of ANY wwasp program that has chain link fences and barbed,hurricane wire. Leave that to the juvenile justice centers.
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I won't quote all that was said on health care, mental health. Listen! Referral parents are not the ones that determine if a child is admitted to a program. I think that was said earlier. Those parents may get a little over zealous, but when you see the changes, it's sometimes hard to keep to themselves when they see another parent hurting. Most of those parents, however, don't blanket the city with brochures, or tell other parents this is the ONLY way to heal. I know there are other programs out there that are effective, because ultimately the kid and parents are responsible for the results. The programs provide the tools, whatever program, and they're used or not.
I know doctors are paid by the pharmaceutical companies. That's why natural medicine is always challenged by both physicians and the pharm. cos. I don't need to ask.
I know if someone is paid for doing what they love, it's not a bad thing! Deborah said she is paid for watching other people's children. I could go as low as saying she is encouraging the parents to go to work and not watch their own children, but that's as stupid as saying it's wrong to get a break on tuition for helping other parents with providing an option.
It really doesn't matter to me, and I can honestly say I've shared this program on occasion and never received a cent for it. It's out of caring for another person in pain that I did it. But if I had, it would have been invested in my family.
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From Deborah: Further, if these facilities are not mental health facilties, then how are parents being reimbursed? Insurance companies don't pay for traditional boarding schools or tough-love intervention.
Just a quickie - on my way out.
Parents are not reimbursed by the insurance companies except for therapy. They are not reimbursed for tuition, I know, I tried for months.
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***Wow, lots on this board today about fear!***
Could you stop analyzing everyone else and professing your arrogant and erroneous misinterpretations. In all of your personal growth, did you ever come across the "I" statement theory? How bout sticking to what you know- how YOU feel? If you know.
There frequently are no "resolutions" in debates particularly around politics, religion, and the teen warehousing industry. Did you ever ask Gilcrest where he got his training, or what therapeutic philosophy he used? If you were selecting a therapist would you ask with philosophy they used in their counseling? Behind every personal growth process is some philosophy.
Dr. Phil, bless his heart, get's you to "think for yourself". Come on. One can adopt his thinking if they choose, but there's hardly any new thoughts/thinking out there. Just different (new) spins. I like some of what he has to say, but he is a zealot with tons of repressed anger, imho.
I'm not looking for the dark side. I have close acquaintances who are all into est/LS. They're basically good people. The point of this debate is that parents should be informed about the mode of therapy they are going to be subjected to and given the choice, before they sign the checks and make a committment to the program. Once you're in, you don't just ask for a refund and walk away, according to ex-parents.
I don't believe it's human nature to resist change. I do think people resist control- a survival instinct. I have seen change happen miraculously when a person is treated with respect. I actually think there is a knawing need and desire toward cooperation inherent in all of us. I still find it hard to cooperate with a control freak. But, if that control freak had me locked away, drilling me on a daily basis, I'd probably subcumb- another survival instinct.
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"How bout sticking to what you know- how YOU feel? If you know." excerpt from Deborah's post.
**************
Deb, Observation, it's not meant in any other way. I really don't see you sticking to what you know. I see you quoting from links, providing links, but not much of your own personal experiences. You know people, you've heard of people, someone told you, you read about...
You are adept at finding resources, great. Please don't attack those of us that share personal thoughts and experiences. :wink:
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So little traditional therapy? Here's Wikipedia's summary- A blending of techniques- Magdalen Asylums, Military Academies, and methods similar to religous cults.
http://www.ezresult.com/article/World_W ... nd_Schools (http://www.ezresult.com/article/World_Wide_Association_of_Specialty_Programs_and_Schools)
The techniques used in WWASP programs are a mixture of methods used by military schools, churches and religious cults. For example, the rule of strict silence has been used by Magdalen Asylums, operated in Ireland by the Catholic church until 1996. Young women were placed in such asylums for offenses ranging from prostitution to "provocative" behavior, and some of them remained there for their whole life. Even adult women had to address the nuns as "mother" (similar to WWASP's rule of addressing the staff representative as "Mum" or "Dad"), and they were referred to as "children" or "girls", regardless of age. Sexuality was strictly controlled and punished when expressed in any consensual way. However, Magdalen Asylums openly used corporal punishment, and kept occupants busy with "hard work" (usually in washeries).
Degradation and humiliation are commonly employed in military academies, with the goal often being the complete destruction of the students' personalities and their transformation into "killing machines." Power structures are of utmost importance in a military context. Corporal punishment has become uncommon, especially against adults, but can be substituted by making the group pay for a single individual's behavior (which then often leads to physical revenge against that individual by the group).
The bombardment with videos and "reflections" is similar to the methods used by many religious cults to dominate the minds of their followers, the goal being the inculcation of the cult ideology. To this end, family members are frequently excluded from interacting with their loved ones, unless they themselves join the new "family", that is, the cult. Many cults have referred to themselves as families or as children (see, e.g., Children of God). Cults frequently employ systems of levels within which members can advance, the most complex one perhaps being used by Scientology. Like WWASP, many cults are notorious for litigating against critics.
According to critics of recovered memory therapy, patients in such therapy sessions are told that they are in "denial" until they acknowledge that sexual or ritual abuse has happened; similarly, relatives who are charged with the abuse are also in "denial" until they acknowledge its reality. This is comparable to the use of the word "manipulative" in WWASP programs -- students are "manipulative" whenever they say or write something which the staff disagrees with.
Critics like Richard Ofshe have claimed that RMT patients are frequently assigned to self-helf groups which are often used to re-affirm their belief system, and that these grow into a replacement "family" (because the original family is believed to have been responsible for severe abuse). While the goal of WWASP is to ultimately return children to their families, for the period of their stay, students will have to accept staff as their family. The WWASP "therapy" sessions, too, have the goal of re-affirming the WWASP ideology and the belief of students in their mistakes (with denial being punished, sometimes physically).
While society has generally learned to accept masturbation as a common form of human sexual behavior and a natural part of a child's sexual development, it is not atypical for modern closed facilities to engage in strict control of the practice. Many United States prisons forbid it entirely. This strict control of sexual pleasure is frequently justified as necessary to ensure that the inmates are properly punished and do not enjoy their stay. However, especially in children, it is known to have the effect of strengthening or creating associations of sex with shamefulness, which will likely result in sexual problems in later life. Given that some children stay over a period of years in WWASP programs, these effects should not be underestimated.
Claims that programs like WWASP help teens to overcome "defiance" have to be viewed in light of psychological research that increasingly views bonding as essential for the development of positive relationships; bonding, of course, is a two-way-process. Many children admitted to WWASP come from divorced families where the bonding process has been disrupted. Child neglect and lack of physical affection are both known risk factors for problematic behavior such as drug use.
If the testimony cited above is accurate, the physical and psychological abuse described would result in severe trauma in many cases (leading in turn to symptoms like depression, nightmares, stress, and self-injury). It depends on the degree of prior bonding with the parents whether such trauma is projected onto WWASP, onto the parents, or self-projected. In any case, these traumatic effects will likely not surface immediately.
Articles about WWASP often quote parents who are very satisfied customers. This can be explained in part with the acknowledged theory of cognitive dissonance; the programs are very expensive, and if they are viewed as a failure later, the parents would have to acknowledge their own mistake, and worse, that they spent thousands of dollars to fund a program that ultimately harmed their children. Such acknowledgment will be viewed as emotionally unappealing, so reasons will be sought for upholding the belief that the program was indeed useful.
Furthermore, as noted above, any negative effects of the programs are likely to become visible over a period of years, and the immediate effect may very well be increased obedience. Many of the same arguments that are used in the debate about spanking can be applied here: Even many of the most fierce opponents of the practice acknowledge that it may often accomplish the desired result of obedience, but claim that the immediate physical harm and the long-term psychological harm far outweigh this perceived benefit.
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Say what you will about Deborah, the lady is nothing if not extremely well-informed. Personally, I wonder if that is not what irks program parents more so than her lack of first-hand experience with their program-of-choice.
Keep up the good work Deborah! Children's thoughts and feelings are not the property of their parents. These programs are full of kids who can not even use the latrine without permission and/or someone watching. Now really, what could be more controlling than depriving a grown child of the right to decide for themselves when they can go potty, nevermind allowing them to do so in privacy.
Just pitiful, is all I can say.
:sad:
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On 2004-01-08 20:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Say what you will about Deborah, the lady is nothing if not extremely well-informed. Personally, I wonder if that is not what irks program parents more so than her lack of first-hand experience with their program-of-choice.
Keep up the good work Deborah! Children's thoughts and feelings are not the property of their parents. These programs are full of kids who can not even use the latrine without permission and/or someone watching. Now really, what could be more controlling than depriving a grown child of the right to decide for themselves when they can go potty, nevermind allowing them to do so in privacy.
Just pitiful, is all I can say.
:sad: "
Is this coming from a person that doesn't have first hand experience either? Must be, that comment about the potty and privacy is "crap." PUN.
I was wondering how long it would take for today's topics to turn ugly. So much for serious debate!
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Deborah - OMG! That would scare the hell out of me if I didn't know better! Where DO you find this stuff? The author even states, "if this were true..."
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On 2004-01-08 18:36:00, Deborah wrote:
"***I don't think Specialty Boarding Schools are considered Mental Health or Health Care industry, If they were in those industries they would be at least three times the price of what most current tuitions.***
I'm wondering now if you've really been brainwashed or have just failed to educate yourself, or for some reason would like to put a false spin on reality. Of course, SBS, TBS, RTC are part of the Mental Health Industry. The ones who have FT "professionals" on staff ARE expensive. And as critics claim, the less expensive ones are so because they don't hire FT "professionals". Further, if these facilities are not mental health facilties, then how are parents being reimbursed? Insurance companies don't pay for traditional boarding schools or tough-love intervention.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /oe02.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1999/6/oe02.html)
Excerpts:
The difference between a Residential Treatment Center, for example, and an Emotional Growth School depends on the different emphases each places on the use of Psychiatry, Therapy, Structure (he used the term Milieu), Education, and Recreation. For example, a Residential Treatment Center will emphasize Psychiatry, Therapy and Therapeutic Structure in its program, with only minor elements of Recreation and Education. On the other hand, an Emotional Growth School is basically a mirror image of a RTC, in that the emphasis is on Structure, Education, and Recreation/activity, with only a minor role being played by Therapy and Psychiatry.
Many at that time felt that by applying scientific techniques from the medical community to mental health problems, they were on the verge of creating a miracle, that is, a society with a definitive solution to age-old behavior and emotional problems. This dream, plus amazing profits, was the driving force behind a major building boom in the seventies by hospitals and other facilities to treat all kinds of mental health conditions for young people through such institutions as youth psychiatric hospitals and wards, drug treatment programs and Residential Treatment Centers. Yet, 30 years later, reeling from accusations of ?warehousing,? ?outrageous costs,? and frequent ?lack-luster outcomes,? the mental health industry is seeing major changes. What happened?
Even in 1969, there was a considerable backlash to the direction the mental health establishment was going. Calling the prevalent mental health approach ?insensitive to our humanness,? and ?an out-of-balance extreme use of the scientific method,? a large number of alternatives were developed in the sixties and seventies challenging the prevailing ?scientific mental health? philosophy. Created mostly by lay people, movements such as AA, Synonon, Christian counseling, est and many more strove to prove that the factors of relationships, spirituality, adult role models and emotional maturity, the things discounted by mental health clinicians of the time, were really the most important keys to healing.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /oe05.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1995/2/oe05.html)
THE MARATHON WORKSHOP and its value as a counseling tool in emotional growth schools
Where did these workshops come from? From creative minds. They came from often controversial influences and beginnings ? Synanon, Lifespring, est, ? out of the ?60?s ? and from many of the earliest creative innovators in the mental health field.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een02.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2000/5/seen02.html)
The article traced Tranquility Bay?s TASK seminars back through Lifespring, est, to the Spanish Inquisition, the anti-Papist trials, and Chinese thought control or ?reeducation.? As you might imagine, the general tone is hostile.
"
::spam:: Lets try to keep the post shorter, a simple link would work.
Anyways Specialty Boarding Schools was mentioned not Treatment Centers, Boarding Schools are not considered Mental Health, that is why insurance will not cover them. Deborah, you seem to be the expert, I would love to see your credentials? Or even work experince could be helpful. :grin:
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Observation my eye. It was an indirect communication designed to persuade some to view criticism as fear/manipulation. This is precisely the crap used on kids in programs everyday. The poster has labled critical information as fearful, and now you accuse me attacking parents sharing their stories? Go figure. I can't follow that logic... perhaps because it's not logical.
Refering to Webster, to KNOW:
1 a (1) : to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2) : to have understanding of (3) : to recognize the nature of : DISCERN b (1) : to recognize as being the same as something previously known (2) : to be acquainted or familiar with (3) : to have experience of
2 a : to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of b : to have a practical understanding of
How many of you absolutely KNOW (def #1) how your child was treating on a daily basis? Really know. Do you ever wonder?
It doesn't appear that those posting here KNOW much about the BM techniques/methods/philosophy (whatever you choose to call the "treatment") used in the programs or seminars.
The poster might have shared how s/he was feeling, not presume to KNOW what others are feeling. Is that part of the confrontational approach?
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On 2004-01-08 15:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This has gone from "abuse" to belittling parents for sharing what has worked for them. Are you pissed because your son's program didn't offer a way to offset the tuition? What is your purpose, if I may ask?
Your post is amusing. "
Bravo, Bravo, Bravo!!! :nworthy: I think you just sumed up all of the critical disgruntled parents with a perfect definition
Hey blame the program, I am sure that you anti-program people are very responsible and take accountability for all your other mistakes.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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See page 34 of 66. Level One. Must be with a staff member at all times. Unless I am mistaken, I presume that means 24/7 and would include not being allowed to go to the bathroom without permission and supervision. But really, please correct me if I am wrong. Meanwhile, I will search the Internet again for some kind of parent manual from another bm program. This was just the first one that came up in my search.
http://www.adolescentspecialtyschools.c ... itybay.pdf (http://www.adolescentspecialtyschools.com/docs/manual_tranquilitybay.pdf)
Deborah: FYI, you might find this interesting reading @ the Seminars and Emotional Growth curriculum. Personally, I got a headache reading this stuff. Way too detailed for my short attention span but definitly a real-eye-opener.
:wave:
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***The author even states, "if this were true..."***
I didn't see that. What I did see, in reference to the effects of this sort of "treatment", the author said, "if the testimony is accurate".
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On 2004-01-08 21:37:00, Deborah wrote:
"
Observation my eye. It was an indirect communication designed to persuade some to view criticism as fear/manipulation. This is precisely the crap used on kids in programs everyday. The poster has labled critical information as fearful, and now you accuse me attacking parents sharing their stories? Go figure. I can't follow that logic... perhaps because it's not logical.
Refering to Webster, to KNOW:
1 a (1) : to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2) : to have understanding of (3) : to recognize the nature of : DISCERN b (1) : to recognize as being the same as something previously known (2) : to be acquainted or familiar with (3) : to have experience of
2 a : to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of b : to have a practical understanding of
How many of you absolutely KNOW (def #1) how your child was treating on a daily basis? Really know. Do you ever wonder?
It doesn't appear that those posting here KNOW much about the BM techniques/methods/philosophy (whatever you choose to call the "treatment") used in the programs or seminars.
The poster might have shared how s/he was feeling, not presume to KNOW what others are feeling. Is that part of the confrontational approach?"
Your right lock your kid in a closet and never let them leave their room, you can never know if they leave if they get abused. Plus proffesionals at the schools (e.g. teachers, therapist, directors etc.) that are obligated to report abuse will not, they are not as competent that you could be with locking your child in his or her room.
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Huh? Locking kids in closets? How about locking them out of the house? Making 'em sleep on a dog mat? Premeditated psychological cruelty? Check this article out. Poor kid, with parents like this, is it any wonder he was not a happy camper?
Two on trial for love that was too tough
Date: November 23 2002
Was it an effort by parents to discipline their wayward child or was it cruelty? Stuart Pfeifer writes from Newport Beach, California.
Grady and Deborah Machnick were distressed about their teenage son's behaviour. His chores went unfinished. His grades were slipping. He stole money from them and shoplifted at the local supermarket. So the parents took drastic steps.
Grady Machnick, a Los Angeles County sheriff's sergeant, and his wife, an elementary school principal, locked the boy out of the house until he finished his algebra homework. Some nights they forced him to sleep outside on a dog mat.
When the boy did not pick up droppings left by the family dogs his stepmother scooped up the litter from the backyard and put them in his backpack before he went to school.
Often he was excluded from the dinner table, forced to eat leftovers in the kitchen while the rest of the family dined on freshly cooked meals.
The Machnicks say they did this to discipline a wayward son before he got into even worse trouble. Prosecutors say their actions were not only misguided but criminal.
The parents went on trial this week in a child-endangerment case the likes of which prosecutors say they have never seen before. Most child abuse involves sudden, violent acts. This case focuses on what Orange County authorities describe as premeditated psychological cruelty.
Essentially, the Machnicks are accused of going overboard in "positive reinforcement" and other steps right out of a parenting self-help book. Implicitly, the case asks the justice system to define when parental tough love veers into a criminal act. The Machnicks are charged with misdemeanour child endangerment and felony conspiracy. If convicted of both offences they could each be sentenced to up to three years' jail. The couple, who have pleaded not guilty, do not dispute many of the allegations, though they deny ever physically harming the boy, now 16 and at high school.
"One of my biggest regrets is I was unable to find a form of behaviour modification that would work," Grady Machnick said in a statement released by his lawyer. The boy "has great potential but simply would not obey school or home rules".
In May 2001, the boy ran away. He arrived at his best friend's house after 1am, his hair soaking wet. He told his friend his father had awakened him by dousing him with "several gallons" of water to punish him for returning home late from school.
A week later, the friend's family informed police the Machnicks's son was living with them. When a detective arrived to interview Grady Machnick, the father said: "He didn't commit any crimes, did he?"
Later, when a social worker told him his son wanted to come home, Machnick said he would take him back only if he could continue with his disciplinary regimen. Authorities placed the boy in the custody of his best friend's family.
A social worker, Curtis Vaughn, concluded that "father and stepmother have totally failed in their parental duties to inform and instruct the child".
After charges were filed against the parents, the Sheriff's department placed Grady Machnick on unpaid leave. Deborah Machnick was relieved of her principal's duties and shifted to an administrative post where she has no contact with children.
The boy's name has been withheld because he is a minor.
Los Angeles Times
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This meets my definition of child abuse. And still, the boy wanted to go home. Who can blame him? Even too-tough love is better than no love at all.
:flame:
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Why is it that people find the need to slam others because their view on the subject of WWASP is different than WWASP parents? I read the post of slamming Deborah's view because she posts links and you dis-like the fact that she possibly has no first hand experience with WWASP. When first-hand experience is spoken you find a way to slam that as well because the experience is different than what you believe.
My suggestion is WWASP has it's private board for postings of possitive feedback only.....if that is what you are looking for stick to it. If you are interested in understanding things that really happen and are true experiences take it in vs. judging it and use the tools you supposidly learned in your training to change it.
Through the 3 year experience I had with the program.....seminars....staffing.... I have seen so many WWASP parents bashing those that have a different view....a dime a dozen.... also remember for those of you not willing to see the down side of things from true experiences that is your choice as you so like to speak of choices rather than truly looking at yourself. Practice what you preach or don't preach it.
Before you start typing your post away to justify your belief and try to slam my post....perhaps you should take time to reflect back on your seminars as to what you have learned in your own personal growth and come away with a new understanding of all people vs. WWASP views. :nworthy:
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I imagine it's part of the training:
http://www.caic.org.au/psyther/lifespring/pathology.htm (http://www.caic.org.au/psyther/lifespring/pathology.htm)
The trainer used a variety of techniques to neutralize comments which challenged or qualified the point being made and maintained sufficient control over audience responses to assure that defiance and critical thinking were not publicly rewarded. The use of confusing "double talk" was particularly effective in disarming those who threatened to delegitimize the trainer's position. Statements such as "What you think isn't is, and what you think is isn't," or "Well, what is the answer?" were perplexing enough to cause the participant to fatter in uncertainty. The suggestion that the participant was disturbed, confused, "avoiding," or "game-playing" were other tactics used to discredit objecting participants.
As the training progressed, participants, become increasingly reliant upon the trainer to interpret reality. Defenses and the capacity for critical reasoning were undermined by both the structure of the training and the responses of the leader. Typically, a didactic session followed each experiential exercise, providing an interpretive framework for the feelings evoked. The trainer provided attributions for the heightened arousal which was generated by the exercise.
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So basically, this kind of training is designed to evoke a **desired** response. Sounds like coercive thought control, to me. Second, the training appears to radically "change" the participants reality testing skills (what is, isn't and what isn't is).
My question is how long does it take for the effects of this kind of training to wear off?
:eek:
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On 2004-01-09 04:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why is it that people find the need to slam others because their view on the subject of WWASP is different than WWASP parents? I read the post of slamming Deborah's view because she posts links and you dis-like the fact that she possibly has no first hand experience with WWASP. When first-hand experience is spoken you find a way to slam that as well because the experience is different than what you believe.
My suggestion is WWASP has it's private board for postings of possitive feedback only.....if that is what you are looking for stick to it. If you are interested in understanding things that really happen and are true experiences take it in vs. judging it and use the tools you supposidly learned in your training to change it.
Through the 3 year experience I had with the program.....seminars....staffing.... I have seen so many WWASP parents bashing those that have a different view....a dime a dozen.... also remember for those of you not willing to see the down side of things from true experiences that is your choice as you so like to speak of choices rather than truly looking at yourself. Practice what you preach or don't preach it.
Before you start typing your post away to justify your belief and try to slam my post....perhaps you should take time to reflect back on your seminars as to what you have learned in your own personal growth and come away with a new understanding of all people vs. WWASP views. :nworthy: "
Your experiences are worth debating, but why debate? You have a personal history with wwasps and I personally don't think I said I don't agree nor disagree, it is what it is. I just see another way of looking at it. You are having difficulties with your daughter now and blame wwasps. That's your right and I will also ask you to look at your own seminar/program experience and look at getting help somewhere for YOU and take care of yourself. You've given your daughter the okay to run your emotions and life. You've given yourself permission to be a victim of both your daughter's choices and staff at the program from what I've read. Is that working for you? There's a payoff in this, think about it. Is this choice create an inspiring future or keep you stuck in the past? Sorry, I forgot, this is a debate, not a group session. Nevermind.
If you were on the BBS, then you know that it is not always positive, but it is respectful feedback. I do respect your feelings because they are your feelings, not something posted from links or articles. :wink:
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What's wrong with Deborah providing links to information relevant to these issues? Different strokes for different folks, Anon. Personally, I followed some of those links and emerged from the experience with a better understanding of some rather complex issues that DO impact the way children are treated and cared for while in the custody of a specialty school or program. That's a good thing, IMHO, unless one's critical thinking skills are so impaired, they actually believe the world revolves around their program-of-choice.
To the Ex-Program Parent:
I am interested in your perspective and appreciate your posts. Whatever choices you made on behalf of yourself and your child, were made with the best of intentions. What better way to examine the pros and cons of these programs than to present BOTH sides of the coin? The program parents who are trying to convert your dissent into a personal attack, should back off or risk being viewed as BULLIES.
:wave:
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" What's wrong with Deborah providing links to information relevant to these issues? Different strokes for different folks, Anon. Personally, I followed some of those links and emerged from the experience with a better understanding of some rather complex issues that DO impact the way children are treated and cared for while in the custody of a specialty school or program. That's a good thing, IMHO, unless one's critical thinking skills are so impaired, they actually believe the world revolves around their program-of-choice."
**********
Exactly my point here. These links do not have anything to do with wwasps seminars. Yes, they provide some of the same personal growth opportunities, but it is NOT the same thing, so it really is diverting readers to something else. It brings in a lot of assumptions.
I will say this again. If you want to debate the seminars - go to the seminars.
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Let's get back to a serious respectful debate. please.
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No, Anon. The information in the study done on Lifespring by Dr. Haaken is right on the mark. What you don't seem to understand is the WWASPS seminars have their roots in the human potential movement where Gilcrease apparently got his early training with Lifespring.
Deborah, somewhere in the archives is a post about these seminars being introduced to the public school system in Washington State. Can you help me find it? As I recall, there was considerable debate about whether this was a good or bad thing to subject young minds to.
Thanks!
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Is there a problem with human potential? I agree that human potential/personal growth seminars are evolving, getting better. Each seminar I staffed had some things the same, and some had changed. It is ever changing, so how can you lump what wwasps provides with what is specific to others?
There are many, many, many books written for self improvement, personal growth, healing that could be said to be based on the same roots. The bookstores and libraries are full of them.
There's a new show on tv called "Starting Over" and that could be modeled from seminars - getting out of your comfort zone and try new things.
Gary Zukov, Deepak Chopra, Marianne Williamson, Debbie Ford, and MANY others are here to help us live a more fulfilled life.
Vision Quests, Personal Growth seminars both personally and in the workplace are becoming the norm.
Discover Days are throughout our middle schools to help kids understand what teasing each other can create.
Self-esteem and prevention programs are also becoming mainstream.
What have I missed...
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It's not Discover Days, sorry. It's called Challenge Days: http://www.challengeday.org/ (http://www.challengeday.org/)
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On 2004-01-09 09:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It's not Discover Days, sorry. It's called Challenge Days: http://www.challengeday.org/ (http://www.challengeday.org/)"
This was the group involved in bringing (sponsoring?) these seminars to the public schools in Washington State, I believe in affiliation with Challenge Days. Really NEED that news article about the success (NOT) of that endeavor. Still searching.
http://www.nwfamilyvisions.org/whoweare ... nformation (http://www.nwfamilyvisions.org/whoweare.htm#Foundation%20information)
:wave:
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What B.S. These folks are multi-millionaires capitalizing on a trend in America to raise a better, more efficient child. Remember Dr. Spock? People thought raising their kids the SPOCK way was the answer to producing happy, well-adjusted kids. Well, apparently not. We are those kids raising kids ourselves now, in institutionalized-style programs. Welcome to the brave new world of MAGICAL ADULTS and CHILDREN.
::puke::
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[/quote]
Your experiences are worth debating, but why debate? You have a personal history with wwasps and I personally don't think I said I don't agree nor disagree, it is what it is. I just see another way of looking at it. You are having difficulties with your daughter now and blame wwasps. That's your right and I will also ask you to look at your own seminar/program experience and look at getting help somewhere for YOU and take care of yourself. You've given your daughter the okay to run your emotions and life. You've given yourself permission to be a victim of both your daughter's choices and staff at the program from what I've read. Is that working for you? There's a payoff in this, think about it. Is this choice create an inspiring future or keep you stuck in the past? Sorry, I forgot, this is a debate, not a group session. Nevermind.
If you were on the BBS, then you know that it is not always positive, but it is respectful feedback. I do respect your feelings because they are your feelings, not something posted from links or articles. :wink:
"
[/quote]
You are making assumptions that I am stuck in my daughters choices and emotions. You are also assuming I am blaming the program for her choices today......I do not believe that I stated that perhaps that is your choice as justification of the program....doesn't really concern me. I also have not potrayed as being a vitim to the program nor to my daughters choices. I simply have stated what my experience has been within the program. As for moving on with my life....again another assumption you are making that I have not.
Point being to what I have been talking about is.... The number one thing that WWASP teaches to others is to be accountable however it has been my findings through others experience an my own that they do not practice that they only preach it.
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Is this the article you're looking for?
http://www.rickross.com/reference/gener ... al440.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general440.html)
Gilcrease said the new approach offers "a huge potential growth area" for his $2 million-a-year company, but the motivation isn't financial.
"We make pretty good money. I don't need money. We want to make a difference. We've got some serious problems here," Gilcrease said.
****************
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=9&0 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3387&forum=9&0)
The expansion shows how deep the need is for these kinds of facilities, he said, adding that the schools are doing the Lord's work at a time when America's moral fabric is fraying and its families are under increasing stress.
Lichfield added: "Do I believe that God is interested in finding a way for them to get help? I do. Do I believe that Satan is interested in thwarting it? I do."
*****
The engineer and used car salesman team up to fix the country's problems- teenagers. How lovely. Has Litchfield been through the seminars, or did they employ Gilcrease because he was convenient- officed in the same building?
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-01-09 10:22 ]
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Dr. Spock seemed to have forgotten a big part of this. THE WHOLE FAMILY! Now, there are so many others that know how important each family is in this.
I'm not sure if all these folks are multi-millionaires, but so what? There knowledge is worth it to me.
Others that are here to help us live more fulfilling lives: Stephen Covey, John Bradshaw, Eckhart Tolle, Suze Orman, Og Mandino, Tony Robbins, Margaret Wheatley, Jack Canfield, Byron Katie, Susan Jeffers, Iyanla Vanzant
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On 2004-01-09 10:03:00, Deborah wrote:
"Is this the article you're looking for?
http://www.rickross.com/reference/gener ... al440.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general440.html)
"
Thanks, yes it is! There was also an editorial published that raised serious questions about this event. Must be in the same newspaper?
Excerpt from article linked to Rick Ross website:
"Until now, the seminars have been pitched primarily to teens and parents of teens in the five member programs of the St. George, Utah-based World Wide Association of Specialty Programs.
The pilot program in Seattle is the first step in bringing the seminars to a larger market.
Gilcrease said the new approach offers "a huge potential growth area" for his $2 million-a-year company, but the motivation isn't financial.
"We make pretty good money. I don't need money. We want to make a difference. We've got some serious problems here," Gilcrease said.
Family Visions Foundation, created by seminar graduates, paid nearly $10,000 for the middle schools' Challenge Days as part of an effort to reach a broader range of families, including those not in crisis, said Family Visions board member Michele Anciaux Aoki, who arranged the Washington and Meany workshops.
"It's been a gift to our family," Aoki said of the seminars she has attended with her husband since she took her struggling 16-year-old son to Spring Creek Lodge in Thompson Falls, Mont., three years ago.
Aoki, co-president of the Parent Teacher Student Association at Washington Middle School, is one of many parents who credit the seminars with motivating their children to straighten up and with bringing families back together.
Mort Hurt, who went through seminars to support his daughter nine years ago, called it "a life-changing experience. ... If we had a program like this worldwide, we wouldn't be having the problems we face today."
-------------------------------------------------
Like I said, welcome to the brave new world of MAGICAL ADULTS and CHILDREN. Pass the pepto-bismo, please?
:silly:
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Bringing Families Back Together Again. How quaint. How lucrative! Show me the M.O.N.E.Y.
:rofl:
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Are the last two posters Anti Family?
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And what is Family Visions Foundation? A group of WWASP parents who want to spread the word. They're on a mission to "create Whole and Healthy Families". They raised the funds for this program to be presented in a pubic school.
Pam Brown, Viki Jessop, Sue Blair, Ed North,
Wanda Matthiesen, Curt Creswell, Greg Casteel and Ed Hartzler
Read their bios at:
http://www.nwfamilyvisions.org/whoweare.htm#Our%20Story (http://www.nwfamilyvisions.org/whoweare.htm#Our%20Story)
How did the seminar get into the public school?
Jacqueline Price ~ Ameilia Earhart ~
I've worked for the Franklin Pierce School District for 10 years and currently work as a Career Specialist at Washington High School in Tacoma.
My purpose is to create a whole and healthy family in my own home, my own community, my own county, and the rest of the world. I have joined the Foundation because it is in alignment with that goal.
I have been very happily married to my husband Tom for 31 years. We have 5 adopted children: Jaimee, 26, (married with the 2 cutest children in the universe); Thomas, 23, (to be married in July); Megan, 17; and twins Max & Mike, age 14. Megan introduced us to the program in November of 2000. She spent 18 months at Spring Creek. Unfortunately, she has chosen to make non-working choices and is no longer living at home, but we are ever hopeful that she will return to what she has been taught.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-01-09 10:51 ]
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At least they're doing something to make a difference besides what we're doing...posting judgment on this board.
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Perhaps I can shed a little light on what all these vision family people are doing.
The last of the seminars was called visions. This seminar (at the time I participated) was done in 2 weekend sessions. The first session was going over what was learned in focus and putting those tools to work. Over the next 6 weeks at home you had to do work from the visions book. At the end of this period you returned to your visions group (My group was based in Texas). During the last of this session you were given instructions to come up with a "Group Vision". This is when the "parent graduates of visions" are given instructions on coming up with a task to reach out to their community. Basically it is another way to recruit more unsuspecting desperate parents. Again this was my experience.
-
http://www.casafamilyday.org/about.htm (http://www.casafamilyday.org/about.htm) -
This is a Legacy Project that came from a group of Visions grads. Don't see mention of the program anywhere!
CASA is not Casa by the sea. So much for your theory.
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On 2004-01-09 11:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Perhaps I can shed a little light on what all these vision family people are doing.
The last of the seminars was called visions. This seminar (at the time I participated) was done in 2 weekend sessions. The first session was going over what was learned in focus and putting those tools to work. Over the next 6 weeks at home you had to do work from the visions book. At the end of this period you returned to your visions group (My group was based in Texas). During the last of this session you were given instructions to come up with a "Group Vision". This is when the "parent graduates of visions" are given instructions on coming up with a task to reach out to their community. Basically it is another way to recruit more unsuspecting desperate parents. Again this was my experience."
Thanks Anon. There is way too much sugar-coating going on here and I appreciate knowing not all parents are so easily duped into supporting the VI$ION of a handful of middle-aged folks over-dosing on their delusions of controlling the universe.
:roll:
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Not duped into supporting family healing? I'd like to hear why you are so anti-family?
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On 2004-01-09 11:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Not duped into supporting family healing? I'd like to hear why you are so anti-family? "
I do not see where it says anything about being ani-family. To clear up what you are saying.....Does not being a vision follower mean your anti-family and do not believe in family healing?
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On 2004-01-09 11:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"At least they're doing something to make a difference besides what we're doing...posting judgment on this board. "
Speak for yourself, Anon. I am not anti-family.
I am not a prisoner of YOUR values and beliefs. I am a powerful, intelligent, passionate human being who thinks adults who buy into these seminars as a lifestyle are the same people who can be trained to do just about anything. Like disregard the fact that parents do not own their children, their thoughts or feelings. Stop shoving your values and beliefs down the throats of innocent kids under the guise of bringing families back together. Let them grow up without fear of someone profiting from changing their hearts and minds to fit the VISION of old farts
dressed up like new-age gurus.
:smokin:
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Speak for yourself, Anon. I am not anti-family.
I am not a prisoner of YOUR values and beliefs. I am a powerful, intelligent, passionate human being who thinks adults who buy into these seminars as a lifestyle are the same people who can be trained to do just about anything. Like disregard the fact that parents do not own their children, their thoughts or feelings. Stop shoving your values and beliefs down the throats of innocent kids under the guise of bringing families back together. Let them grow up without fear of someone profiting from changing their hearts and minds to fit the VISION of old farts dressed up like new-age gurus.
:smokin: now!
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Regarding my comment on "no one to advocate for the kids"--
Family Reps, Counselors, and all other employees of WWASPs who are "treating" the children are imbued with the idea that anything the child does wrong is his fault and any complaint is "manipulation." You cannot advocate for someone you don't believe. If you assume a kid who lost 35 pounds is making a choice to starve himself, how do you know whether or not he has an illness? What if he was anorexic, would you allow that "choice" to lead to his death? It's not like they are allowed to see doctors.
This exact attitude has caused numerous deaths in prisons, hospitals, all institutions basically where some people have absolute control over others.
The deaths in the wilderness camps are all cases where complaints of kids (whether it was "I can't breathe" from a 65 pound kid being "restrained" by a 300 pount man sitting on him, who later said he thought the kid was "playing possum" or "I am in pain" from a kid who died of a stomach ulcer that could have been treated with one tagamet if he'd been believed in his first week and who looked like a concentration camp victim when his mom saw his body) were ignored.
People whose first assumptions that children's complaints are lies cannot tell when they are telling the truth-- which is why you need an advocate whose first assumption is that they are telling the truth.
And the "complaint process" at WWASP schools is a joke. In fact, there's testimony about it in a Tranquility Bay case: a kid who testified told about how when she complained that there was no exercise in OP, she was laughed at and from then on, punitive and excessive amounts of exercise were required in alternation with lying on the floor.
And who is hurt if a "faking" kid gets seen by a doctor?
So what if it costs extra-- the alternative is erring on the side of disbelief and winding up with kids who die or are severely injured, which has happened and will continue to happen without oversight.
But the WWASP contract explicitly says that cost will be taken into account as a primary consideration when medical care is considered-- and that they should be absolved from liability if this "erring on the side of financial stinginess" results in death or injury.
What kind of parent would sign such a document?
-
Family Healing For Free .... whatta concept! Put down those self-help books and program parent manuals. Unplug yourself from the teen-helper-wannabes. Invest in your family by curing what is really ailing you, standing in the way of releasing your "inner child". You can do it! Trust me, thousands of families have overcome this highly contagious disease without spending their kid's college fund or taking a 2nd mortgage out on the FAMILY HOME.
AFFLUENZA is a groundbreaking film that diagnoses a serious social disease - caused by consumerism, commercialism and rampant materialism - that is having a devastating impact on our families, communities, and the environment. We have more stuff, but less time, and our quality of life seems to be deteriorating. By using personal stories, expert commentary, hilarious old film clips, and "uncommercial" breaks to illuminate the nature and extent of the disease, AFFLUENZA has appealed to widely diverse audiences: from freshmen orientation programs to consumer credit counseling, and from religious congregations to marketing classes.
With the help of historians and archival film, AFFLUENZA reveals the forces that have dramatically transformed us from a nation that prized thriftiness - with strong beliefs in "plain living and high thinking" - into the ultimate consumer society.
The program ends with a prescription to cure the disease. A growing number of people are opting out of the consumer chase,andchoosing "voluntary simplicity" instead. They are working and shopping less, spending more time with friends and family, volunteering in the communities, and enjoying their lives more.
http://www.bullfrogfilms.com/catalog/affl.html (http://www.bullfrogfilms.com/catalog/affl.html)
Get out the popcorn and invite the neighbors, your child's friends and your business associates over for an event that is sure to change their lives. No need to bring their checkbook!!!
-
It's a start! Good post.
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Pick it out, pull it apart, tear it up, chew it up and spit it out ::soapbox::
Check it out - someone said that a level one is "watched" for the duration of their status. WRONG! They are on staff buddy for a few days, to get acquainted with the rules. They are not watched taking a piss or a shower - this lasts only for a couple of days.
Who's the "what if" person? Doctor runs are done every day of the weekday. It doesn't matter if they're faking it, they still go if they say they're sick or whatever, at the parent's expense. Has there EVER been a death at a wwasps school for medical negligence? That is really grasping at straws. You ever had your child say they were sick to stay home from school? Did you take him/her to the doctor every time?
Got any more what ifs? :rofl:
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On 2004-01-09 12:08:00, Anonymous wrote
quote]
Speak for yourself, Anon. I am not anti-family.
I am not a prisoner of YOUR values and beliefs. I am a powerful, intelligent, passionate human being who thinks adults who buy into these seminars as a lifestyle are the same people who can be trained to do just about anything. Like disregard the fact that parents do not own their children, their thoughts or feelings. Stop shoving your values and beliefs down the throats of innocent kids under the guise of bringing families back together. Let them grow up without fear of someone profiting from changing their hearts and minds to fit the VISION of old farts
dressed up like new-age gurus.
:question:
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WOULD ANYONE MIND GETTING BACK TO A SERIOUS AND RESPECTFUL DISCUSSION?
These attacks and statements based on "guesses" are really deteriorating from what looked to be a great resource in the beginning. By the time I got to page 24 it got "stupid!"
Wwasps programs are a big target, there's also a rather large population of people that can give you the real story, not something from a newspaper article written with ommission or prejudice. There's a small amount of former wwasps that didn't get what they expected. That IS valuable info too. If this thread could be kept to first hand knowledge, then it just might be valuable information to others.
Links and articles are not valuable if they come from thinking they know it all based on what they've read. That crap about the seminars/brainwashing is really funny!
The deterioration is coming from links with the attached judgments of people just to throw everyone off into a kindergarten battle of wits.
I'm amused, laughing as a matter of fact, with a VISION of pre-schoolers on the playground when someone took their toys away. Boohoo!
No, I don't share the views of many here. But I also don't profess to know it all, like others. What I do know I'd be happy to share.
My purpose to share would be for parents looking for help, not just in RTC's, but in dealing with the chaos in their family,prevention resources and RESPECT for where they are. Is there any possibility of respect here and not depend on links to find things to discuss or tear apart?
My purpose is not to berate real life experience.C'mon we can do better than the last pages of this thread!
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Anon - lighten up! The majority of folks have a hard enough time tolerating you programmed parents without reaching for the pepto-bismo bottle every time one of you goes off on the miracle of your great awakening. If you are here for serious discussion and/or debate, then go with the flow. If you don't like the links, well hey, don't go there. This is a public forum and all are welcome, as long as they don't bash teens or ex-program parents otherwise, they may find themselves the target of some nasty feedback.
:wave:
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On 2004-01-09 21:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Pick it out, pull it apart, tear it up, chew it up and spit it out ::soapbox::
Check it out - someone said that a level one is "watched" for the duration of their status. WRONG! They are on staff buddy for a few days, to get acquainted with the rules. They are not watched taking a piss or a shower - this lasts only for a couple of days.
Who's the "what if" person? Doctor runs are done every day of the weekday. It doesn't matter if they're faking it, they still go if they say they're sick or whatever, at the parent's expense. Has there EVER been a death at a wwasps school for medical negligence? That is really grasping at straws. You ever had your child say they were sick to stay home from school? Did you take him/her to the doctor every time?
Got any more what ifs? :rofl: "
How do you know if kids can take a piss or shower with or without their "buddy" while they are on the lowest of the behavior modification levels? Seems to me you can't know that or anything else that goes on in these places unless you are there 24/7. Nice try, "stretch" but you missed the boat on this one.
-
I'm the what-if person... and while you claim that doctor runs are done every day, there are *hundreds* of posts by different kids from different schools on different boards who are genuinely different people (I've called them, visited with some-- none have anything to do with PURE or any of your other distraction techniques), AND SOME OF THESE KIDS SAY THEY SUPPORT WWASP, but they admit that the medical care was very rare and that disease was common.
There have been several close-calls with death-- and there's one girl who contracted a serious, life-long lung disease (not TB) who must be making the legal department of WWASP fear for its bowel control.
Read what the kids are saying-- call some of the kids who have complaints, who have been out for a while, who just want to see others treated better, who have zero agenda (many aren't involved in legal action), LISTEN to your own kid, and READ WHAT THE CONTRACT SAYS ABOUT MEDICAL CARE.
-
On 2004-01-10 07:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
I'm the what-if person... and while you claim that doctor runs are done every day, there are *hundreds* of posts by different kids from different schools on different boards who are genuinely different people (I've called them, visited with some-- none have anything to do with PURE or any of your other distraction techniques), AND SOME OF THESE KIDS SAY THEY SUPPORT WWASP, but they admit that the medical care was very rare and that disease was common.
There have been several close-calls with death-- and there's one girl who contracted a serious, life-long lung disease (not TB) who must be making the legal department of WWASP fear for its bowel control.
Read what the kids are saying-- call some of the kids who have complaints, who have been out for a while, who just want to see others treated better, who have zero agenda (many aren't involved in legal action), LISTEN to your own kid, and READ WHAT THE CONTRACT SAYS ABOUT MEDICAL CARE.
"
Thanks, What-If Person. Why would anyone disagree with the need to listen to their own child on any issue, especially when it concerns their health and safety? Good advice!!!
-
***Deborah - Program attitude? There is no "program" attitude. Each person develops their own beliefs, Attitude is a poor choice of words for beliefs.***
The question posed in this debate was why there is such overt disdain for parents who decide its not for them.
Is it an attitude or belief that dissenters are "chattering pigs"?
Who coined the term? The program or 'satisfied' parents? And please define for the readers what "chattering pigs" means, to you.
-
***They do censor inbound mail for illegal items, not written content.***
Are you talking about weapons, drugs, etc; or unapproved food, toiletries, photos, momentos, etc. What does the program consider "illegal"?
-
Mr. What-if says here's the relevant passage from the Spring Creek Parent's Manual:
------
The Program staff have to make numerous decisions about when to seek medical/dental help for
students ranging from small to serious ailments, injuries, or needs. We try to make our decisions
taking into consideration a balance between added costs to the parent for medical care, and true
medical need of the Student. The staff, like any parent, can miscalculate the timing or need of
medical intervention. Such miscalculations can result in the student not getting medical intervention as soon as would be recommended or to avoid complications. The Program staff make these
"judgment calls" for and in behalf of the parents. Any such "judgment calls" are subject to human
error, especially since many of these judgment calls would have to be made by a non-medical staff.
For these reasons, the Program or its staff are not liable for any illness, complications or damages occurring to the Student because of a miscalculated "judgment call" made by the staff in terms of the need or timing of medical intervention for the Student.
-----
They are saying quite explicitly that they will put costs first and children second. They are saying you can't sue them for doing this. They are saying non-medical staff will decide whether or not a health complaint is real, without medical advice.
You will see *nothing* like this in any above-board school or program document-- you will certainly see legal disclaimers, of course, but you will not see anyone saying "we're going to err on the side of cost containment" not caution.
-
***By the time I got to page 24 it got "stupid!"***
About the time seminars were being debated. Are you denying that Gilcrease is an engineer and his only "qualifications" for "helping" people came through his est/LS training? Set the record straight- if you know. So far, there has been denial about the seminars origins, then they were refered to as "personal growth". That covers alot of territory. Has he departed from his est/LS training to create his own technique/philosophy?
His bio at:
http://www.resourcerealizations.com/ind ... tions.com/ (http://www.resourcerealizations.com/index.cfm?url=http://www.resourcerealizations.com/)
Only mentions:
He has led and developed seminars in management, sales, leadership, and customer service. His programs have been successfully adopted by the Worldwide Association of Specialty Programs.
Previous to starting his own company, David worked as a manager for Sola Ophthalmics, involved in the development and integration of an automated customer service system. His duties included management of all office, phones, and computer systems for a company.
David also worked with Hewlett-Packard as a corporate trainer. While with HP, he developed and taught communications, sales, and management seminars.
As a graduate electrical engineer (BSEE, MSEE), David spent the first eight years of his career in the design of computer hardware and software. His background as worker, manager, and trainer in high-tech industries gives him valuable insight into a client's problems and concerns. His expertise allows him to bring resources to not only the technical sector, but all individuals in a more meaningful fashion, thus having a greater impact in creating real life success.
*******
Another point made, and ignored, is that parents should be told up front what kind of "personal growth" they're signing up for BEFORE they write the check and make a committment. The RR site mentions nothing about Gilcrease's training in est/LS. I find that deceptive.
I'm not sure any of the current posters here are qualified to answer these questions, as some apparently don't know Gilcrease's history.
*****
***My purpose to share would be for parents looking for help, not just in RTC's, but in dealing with the chaos in their family,prevention resources and RESPECT for where they are. Is there any possibility of respect here and not depend on links to find things to discuss or tear apart?***
Well, I don't know. What I do know is that I asked if any of you could talk about Gilcrease and/or est/LS and the connection was denied or glossed over. After I posted the links, someone came back with, "What's wrong with personal growth?" The links show there is a connection and offer more detailed information on that approach to personal growth. Unlike the RR website, where the description of the seminar sounds tame compared to ex-participants accounts.
If you consider that disrepectful, a distraction from discussion or tearing things apart; I'd have to wonder why.
Are you denying the creators training or simply would rather it not be known or discussed? He can continue to lead the public to believe that he is skilled in business management and stumbled onto a way to "help" others, including teens. And how are you qualified to answer, unless you are Gilcrease?
This is a debate. There may never be a "resolution" or agreement. How would this debate need to look for you to feel good, comfortable, in control? Confess your agenda.
-
Well, it seems the death of Ian August could have been prevented except for a bad judgment call on the part of his apparently inexperienced and ill-equipped field counselors. This kind of mentality is unacceptable. Parents need to get proactive and demand the highest standards of care and treatment. Parents have medical insurance to cover their children's healthcare needs while they are residing in these programs, do they not? So what's the problem?
-
Have any of the owners and operators of these programs been awarded advanced degrees in behavioral science/healthcare? I mean, specialty schools and programs without staff "specially" trained and qualified in behavioral healthcare seems like an oxymoron.
-
***Well, it seems the death of Ian August could have been prevented except for a bad judgment call on the part of his apparently inexperienced and ill-equipped field counselors.***
Not to take this debate off course, but I followed that case closely because I knew Ian. My opinion is that she was barely qualified to be the lead field counselor and was out there with two other ill prepared helpers. She was trained in the programs method of "flushing out fakers". The method proved to be flawed and Ian died as a result. As an EMT she denied her medical training for that of the program. And had nothing in her bag to treat heat exhaustion on the hottest day of the year.
Based on testimony and other related information, Skyline Journey had 20 or more violations of Utah regs that day. Their license was revoked due to 4 violations, declared by licensing only after the DA filed charges. They were charged with ONE.
That incident is a good example of the general program attitude toward teens. Go to this thread for more discussion:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=662&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=662&forum=9)
-
***Links and articles are not valuable if they come from thinking they know it all based on what they've read.***
Parents have a manual that outlines the "discipline" procedures/ BM techniques. What many parents are "discovering" is that programs, not just WWASP, impliment procedures that are not spelled out in the manual. And had they been, the parent may not have signed the contract.
The program parents posting here appear to be of the opinion that they are experts and dissenters are not.
Here's a fact: none of us lived there 24/7. The only experts are the kids and staff. Some in this debate choose to consider and listen to the expert ex-participants. Program supporters choose to listen to the 'expert' staff and directors, and trust the parent manual to be an accurate depiction of how their child is being "treated".
In fact, most of what you are posting is what you have been told and want to believe is true. You were not there 24/7.
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On 2004-01-10 11:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well, it seems the death of Ian August could have been prevented except for a bad judgment call on the part of his apparently inexperienced and ill-equipped field counselors. This kind of mentality is unacceptable. Parents need to get proactive and demand the highest standards of care and treatment. Parents have medical insurance to cover their children's healthcare needs while they are residing in these programs, do they not? So what's the problem?"
Didn't Ian August die in some kind of wilderness program, non wwasps? Bad thing, but it's a bit misleading.
-
Deborah, was your child in a wwasps program? If so, I'll listen to anything you have to say regarding this program. If not, let's leave it to those that really know.
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On 2004-01-10 11:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Have any of the owners and operators of these programs been awarded advanced degrees in behavioral science/healthcare? I mean, specialty schools and programs without staff "specially" trained and qualified in behavioral healthcare seems like an oxymoron."
Does anybody know here? I know of many medical centers and hospitals where the directors are not MD's...how can that be?
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***Have any of the owners and operators of these programs been awarded advanced degrees in behavioral science/healthcare?***
Interesting. These 1995 articles detail the origins of the "treatment" at BM facilities:
SYNANON'S HISTORY & INFLUENCE IN THERAPEUTIC COMMUNITIES and EMOTIONAL GROWTH SCHOOLS - II
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /oe04.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1995/8/oe04.html)
ECLECTIC COUNSELING part 2 of 3
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /oe05.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1997/4/oe05.html)
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /oe02.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1999/6/oe02.html)
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /oe03.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1998/2/oe03.html)
There appears to be a desire on the part of programs headed by degreed individuals to seperate themselves from the likes of say, programs headed by used car salesmen. The latter are not invited to the private clubs- industry associations- set up by the degreed directors, to spin the illusion that they are different and operate with integrity.
Fact is, they're all more similar than different. The primary difference that I can discern is that the used car salesman charges less for "treatment".
Another difference I've noticed is that the used car salesman is somewhat more upfront with the "abuses" employed, and declares that its necessary for change.
The degreed director is much more covert.
They all know they lack the skills necessary to send home a genuinely "changed" kid without resorting to "abuse".
-
***Deborah, was your child in a wwasps program? If so, I'll listen to anything you have to say regarding this program. If not, let's leave it to those that really know.***
Sweetie,
You continue to misunderstand. It doesn't matter to me if you "listen" to me or not. And in case you missed it, I don't believe program parents "know" anything except what they are told and have read. The only thing they are "experts" on is their experience in seminars. And they aren't very forthcoming about that.
-
Is that a yes or no?
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On 2004-01-10 12:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2004-01-10 11:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well, it seems the death of Ian August could have been prevented except for a bad judgment call on the part of his apparently inexperienced and ill-equipped field counselors. This kind of mentality is unacceptable. Parents need to get proactive and demand the highest standards of care and treatment. Parents have medical insurance to cover their children's healthcare needs while they are residing in these programs, do they not? So what's the problem?"
Didn't Ian August die in some kind of wilderness program, non wwasps? Bad thing, but it's a bit misleading. "
Anon, there have been other "preventable" deaths, including kids who have committed suicide while in a program (e.g. A 14 year old boy who hung himself while enrolled in Alldredge Academy and the 17 year girl who apparently jumped to her death at Tranquility Bay/WWASPS). Other kids have committed suicide shortly after leaving a program, including 2 WWASPS children (Christopher Landre and Corey Murphy). These are just a few tragic examples of cases where "bad judgment" may have played a role in the death of a child. There are more.
:cry:
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On 2004-01-10 12:37:00, Deborah wrote:
"***Deborah, was your child in a wwasps program? If so, I'll listen to anything you have to say regarding this program. If not, let's leave it to those that really know.***
Sweetie,
You continue to misunderstand. It doesn't matter to me if you "listen" to me or not. And in case you missed it, I don't believe program parents "know" anything except what they are told and have read. The only thing they are "experts" on is their experience in seminars. And they aren't very forthcoming about that."
Is that a yes or a no, sweetie?
It seems you are talking about yourself ** I don't believe program parents "know" anything except what they are told and have read.**
That doesn't seem to be my experience in reading the posts from "program" parents.
-
http://www.cslandre.org (http://www.cslandre.org) - Chris didn't get to stay long enough to graduate. Very sad, but his father created something beautiful from that tragedy... from organ donations to helping parents in need.
-
On 2004-01-10 14:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2004-01-10 12:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2004-01-10 11:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well, it seems the death of Ian August could have been prevented except for a bad judgment call on the part of his apparently inexperienced and ill-equipped field counselors. This kind of mentality is unacceptable. Parents need to get proactive and demand the highest standards of care and treatment. Parents have medical insurance to cover their children's healthcare needs while they are residing in these programs, do they not? So what's the problem?"
Didn't Ian August die in some kind of wilderness program, non wwasps? Bad thing, but it's a bit misleading. "
Anon, there have been other "preventable" deaths, including kids who have committed suicide while in a program (e.g. A 14 year old boy who hung himself while enrolled in Alldredge Academy and the 17 year girl who apparently jumped to her death at Tranquility Bay/WWASPS). Other kids have committed suicide shortly after leaving a program, including 2 WWASPS children (Christopher Landre and Corey Murphy). These are just a few tragic examples of cases where "bad judgment" may have played a role in the death of a child. There are more.
:cry:
"
Yes, there are more, many more...but not wwasps. Great diversion!
-
***www.cslandre.org - Chris didn't get to stay long enough to graduate. Very sad, but his father created something beautiful from that tragedy...***
From the website:
Several long term cognitive education programs are approved by the Foundation. Approval by the Foundation encompasses what the opportunities and accomplishes of each program are. The Foundation does not receive operational funds from behavior modification programs as consideration for approval.
*********
In the interest of accuracy and away from deception, shouldn't that read, "One umbrella organization of CE programs" has been approved?
Is Landre self-selected Ed Con now?
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... heard.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2002/8/seennheard.html)
Aug 2002 Lance Landre, President of the Star of Life, also known as the C. S. Landre Foundation, Inc., Fresno, California, 559-434-2598, hangten@cslandre.org, a 501(C)(3) Non-Profit Public Benefits Corporation, stopped by the offices of Woodbury Reports to explain his foundation is devoted to raising money to help parents needing financial help to place or keep their children in Special Needs Schools and Programs. Landre originally had a child in a World Wide Association of Specialty Schools and Programs (WWASP) and since he knew that group of schools, has been working with those parents, but is interested in expanding his work to help parents in all Special Needs Schools and Programs.
***********
Did he get any takers?
-
On 2004-01-10 14:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2004-01-10 14:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2004-01-10 12:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2004-01-10 11:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well, it seems the death of Ian August could have been prevented except for a bad judgment call on the part of his apparently inexperienced and ill-equipped field counselors. This kind of mentality is unacceptable. Parents need to get proactive and demand the highest standards of care and treatment. Parents have medical insurance to cover their children's healthcare needs while they are residing in these programs, do they not? So what's the problem?"
Didn't Ian August die in some kind of wilderness program, non wwasps? Bad thing, but it's a bit misleading. "
Anon, there have been other "preventable" deaths, including kids who have committed suicide while in a program (e.g. A 14 year old boy who hung himself while enrolled in Alldredge Academy and the 17 year girl who apparently jumped to her death at Tranquility Bay/WWASPS). Other kids have committed suicide shortly after leaving a program, including 2 WWASPS children (Christopher Landre and Corey Murphy). These are just a few tragic examples of cases where "bad judgment" may have played a role in the death of a child. There are more.
:cry:
"
Yes, there are more, many more...but not wwasps. Great diversion! "
Anon, you miss the point in your rush to separate WWASPS from the rest of the pack. The point is, all children are at risk of serious injury and even death when in the custody of a program operated by persons who lack specialized training and/or rely upon faulty judgment to make life or death decisions.
GOT IT?????
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Before I provide links to Cognitive Education, thought I'd give you all a chance to comment on what you understand it to be. Also, if an entity administering Cog Ed must be certified or licensed in anyway, and by whom.
Does WWASP refer to their "treatment" as Cog Ed at any of their websites or is this Landre's interpretation of the 'treatment'?
Does Cog Ed not belong to the the mental health/psychology field?
Have directors/staff been trained in Cog Ed?
I realize three questions is a lot to focus on, but they all deserve answers.
-
Got it? I get that all children are at risk in certain situations/school events/sports/ RTC's/scout camps/summer camps/gymnastics classes. That's why they all have parents sign a waiver. Your point is?
I DO AGREE that the parents need to check the safety history of these places.
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To my knowledge, all the staff therapists at the schools are degreed and licensed - in answer to the rest of your post. They are with the kids five days a week 8-10 hours a day. I can only answer from my personal knowledge of one of the wwasps programs. If you're looking for more, you might check it out yourself or ask.
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Landre calls it cognitive education. I'm not sure why, but to my knowledge, it's behavior modification everywhere else. Might ask Landre why he says one thing and wwasps says another?
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Maybe he should call it "pre-cognitive, pre-education! Just a thought. Landre helps parents with zero interest loans. Maybe someone should let him know to use either behavior modification or the pre cog -
http://www.mediasolutions.com/precog/ (http://www.mediasolutions.com/precog/)
Or he has a non-clinical definition for the BM schools. :rofl:
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Someone asked what love meant to me, I assume you meant in terms of intervention or treatment for someone who was harming themselves or making destructive choices.
This therapist speaks closest to what I consider to be a humane approach- an alternative to BM, why BM should be avoided, and what teens and their families are really dealing with when a child is "acting out".
I like his thinking on natural consequences vs parent (program) formulated consequences, except I consider two of his three examples of natural consequences not to be natural, but socially imposed.
I particularly prefer his definition of what "taking responsibility" looks like.
Very different than the program definition- take responsibility = enroll the kid in a program and attend seminars.
http://www.postinstitute.com/articles/a ... iormod.htm (http://www.postinstitute.com/articles/altbehaviormod.htm)
Excerpts:
Therefore, when The Stress Model states that all behavior stems from stress; the use of consequences is not an effective tool for short term altering of behavior and long term development, it is essentially reiterating the fact that children, primarily children of trauma, are reacting from a neurophysiological state of which they only have the power to demonstrate the most minimal degree of control imaginable. If a child is behaving inappropriately, he is not merely behaving inappropriatly but rather is behaving out of a state of neurophysiological upset or stress. In order for parenting intervention to be effective for long term developmental change and immediate behavior alteration the parent must approach the behavior from the perspective of The Stress Model in that the emotions must be expressed in order to calm the stress and diminish the behavior. Otherwise, to give consequences for behavior is merely consequencing behavior and is not addressing the underlying developmental ailment and cause of the behavior. In many ways this alternative approach is a preventive approach because it is working to create the necessary environment for the emotional regulation of stress. Setting the neurophysiological stage to correct what the child's regulatory system has learned and experienced.
Previously, Family-Centered Regulatory Parenting states, " The use of consequences is not an option in the Family-Centered approach due to the principle that the PRIMARY CAREGIVER MUST TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE DEVELOPING CHILD. In doing so, inappropriate behavior is a WARNING SIGN that the child is exhibiting a CONDITIONED STRESS RESPONSE and it is the responsibility of the care giver to initiate a learning and safe environment for the at risk child via containment. (This does not mean institutionalization) Within the application of the Family-Centered Regulatory treatment model a system of application is geared towards PREVENTION of upset emotional stress and behavioral acting out rather than INTERVENTION.
Through the overall process of the Family-Centered approach, the very act of parental responsibility begins to initiate the most valuable behavior modifying technique available. The dyadic transactions, which occur between the caregiver and child, create the environment for restoring the lost nurturing and attunement, which created the child's overly, sensitized stress response system in the beginning. In this manner the parent offers the most advanced system for child intervention available because the overall schema of treatment is not merely geared toward behavioral intervention, but towards the neurophysiological underpinnings of behavior itself and the parent-child dynamics that create stress."
In continuation of The Stress Model within the Family-Centered Parenting approach, it must be understood that the entire family can be and is affected by the stress of another family member. Remembering that the PARENT IS THE PRIMARY RESPONSIBLE PARTY FOR THE EFFECTIVE TEACHING AND REGULATION OF STRESS, it must therefore be understood that the parent(s) are always a part of the final family regulatory state.
When implementing The Stress Equation, we can utilize the following situation as a classic example. A father comes home from work stressed out after having been fired. This physiological state is immediately intrudes upon that of the wife and ultimately the child. Being that a child is immature to the parent in all areas, he will generally be the one participant in the home and variable in the equation that acts out the stress through behavior more so than anyone else. In this manner, the child generally becomes the stress target for the rest of the family. In a family of more than one child, the child with the least independent regulatory ability will become the target because he will be the one individual in the midst of the environment the least capable of regulating the stress therefore causing him to act out the most. For this reason, it is generally the child that brings the parent(s) into treatment. On various occasions, it is not only the child in need of the treatment it is the parent(s) as well. In this regard, successful treatment outcome is impossible without the inclusion of the entire family.
In conclusion, ultimately it is the regulatory ability that leads to our success as individuals in society. Unfortunately to many parents themselves lack the mature regulatory system to be effective regulatory teachers to their children. The parents therefore seek professional help and the professional often times ENHANCES THE STATE OF DYSREGULATION by being CHILD BEHAVIOR-CENTERED. When this is occurring the child is often BLAMES, LABELED, and the behavior given REPEATED CONSEQUENCES, in worse case scenarios, the behavior is MEDICATED or the child begins to act out to such a degree that he is placed in RESIDENTIAL TREATMENT. As long as there is NOT A PARENT WILLING TO TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY to communicate the necessary regulatory lessons, the child will not develop the necessary effective regulatory skills.
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His theory suggests that no one "chooses" anti-social/ self destructive behavior. The behavior has become the default response.
Q: What is your area of specialization?
A: I specialize in the treatment of behavioral and emotional disorders demonstrated by children and families. Primarily, this involves families with children that act out with severe behaviors. Normally, these behaviors range from lying, stealing, and manipulating, to setting fires and hurting others. Often times these children are diagnosed with Reactive Attachment Disorder, however, they may also have been diagnosed as Oppositional-Defiant, Bi-Polar, ADHD, or even Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. I place heavy emphasis on the family because this is the center of the healing environment for this child, and also because the family is generally acting out an enormous amount of stress as well.
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Great info Deborah, thanks for posting the link. I also agree that natural consequences is a great "regulator" and that when coupled with a few parent-ordered penalties for extra measure, it can be a very effective way to help teens mature both emotionally and intellectually. Certainly worked for me when I was growing up. The problem I see today is far too many parents are engaged in a power struggle with their non-compliant (defiant) teens and are turning to these programs for purely punitive reasons. e.g. "There you go, son. Now you will learn to appreciate how good you reaaaaally had it at homea and that we are not such baaaaaad parents, after all." I was lucky these programs didn't really take off until I was well out of high school. Who knows, my folks might have shipped me off somewhere as a consequence for stealing dad's car for a joyride to the local Dairy Queen or A&W, which back then, was where all the cool kids hung out, smoking cigarettes or sneaking a hit off a doobie, drinking beer, checking out the girls/guys, listening to our 8 track tapes. Ah, the pleasures of youth!
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Deborah - good info, however if you can find a therapist that really cares and would use this, that would be great. Haven't found one yet. They ALL say to avoid RTC's and BM's that I've met, but don't have other suggestions other than taking parenting classes and to continue to "visit" them once a week. The experts all think there's another way, but never seem to create any results that would back up their words or evaluations.
Ahhh...in a perfect world!
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"...On various occasions, it is not only the child in need of the treatment it is the parent(s) as well. In this regard, successful treatment outcome is impossible without the inclusion of the entire family."
Actually, it's not just various occasions, but most occasions.
Is there some sort of followup from this article that shows success rates to back up his "theory?"
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Not to discount the whole article, but wouldn't a worst case scenario natural consequence of running away be rape or murder; huffing - death, dropping out of school - a lifetime of welfare or dead end jobs; stealing - jail; internet dating - death or prostitution;
Sometimes parent imposed consequences are needed intead of thinking the worst case scenario will never happen.
His theory doesn't even look good on paper except in the mild cases of the teen experiential behaviors.
Yes, that'll teach the kid to not run away! LOL!
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It has been my experience with WWASP that their staff is not licensed. It has also been my experience with WWASP that they do not even provide their upper staff (Therapists, family reps, etc.) with computers to work with. It has also been my experience with WWASP that although the kids and parents are required to attend seminars the staff is not. It it my feeling that if these seminars are the "re-birth" or "self growth" targets then the staff should also be requried to attend and complete all before they receive the first pay check. It has also been my experience that the staff that is with your child 24/7 assigning cats and restraining to your child also have no education in the area of dealing with kids. It was also my experience that the school teachers do not have educational background either.
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***It has also been my experience with WWASP that although the kids and parents are required to attend seminars the staff is not. It it my feeling that if these seminars are the "re-birth" or "self growth" targets then the staff should also be requried to attend and complete all before they receive the first pay check.***
Interesting comment.
After reading Gilcreases history and Landres (and others) promotional sites, I wondered if the seminars aren't atleast in part, geared toward transforming parents into 'highly successful' salespersons.
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Psychologist Margaret Singer, professor emeritus at the University of California at Berkeley, says that Teen Help practices "large group awareness training," a technique designed to turn an individual into an instrument of a larger group.
In an interview last year with the Denver Rocky Mountain News, Singer said that not everyone is capable of coping with the tactics and that some will suffer psychological damage.
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... esp7.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/0702desp7.shtml)
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Another intersting fact is the 97% success rate. This is based on graduates not the after math. However the graduates would be considered the elite group yet it was stated a mistake was made in hiring grads to work in other facilities after one of the grads attacked another staff member. Food for thought is.....If your graduate is the ultimate result of your program and seminars.....why is it a mistake to have them as employees? That is something to ponder.
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Another thought is the Landre Foundation that was set up in memory of a suicide teen.
Well I remember hearing a different story in each seminar with the same end result of a teen death. Yet is was blamed that this happened because of the fathers ability to pay for further months in the program...... Well the foundation was set up in his name to help others that could no longer afford the costly tuition. It was set up to help families that had no other alternatives. The foundation offers only a percentage of help and the parents (broke parents) have to come up with the remainder. After finding a way to pay the balance they are also required to reimburse the foundation the money they received as help. I suppose if you are willing to sell everything you own including your home this is a good thing. :roll:
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***Not to discount the whole article, but wouldn't a worst case scenario natural consequence of running away be rape or murder; huffing - death, dropping out of school - a lifetime of welfare or dead end jobs; stealing - jail; internet dating - death or prostitution;***
You used "murder/death" three times. Could you post the figures that show how many kids are dying due to illegal drugs? What warrants such hysteria? The things you listed are not "natural" consequences. Did you read the information? And it is true that many kids run away and never experience any of the things you listed.
Seems there are real consequences to program life as well:
Murder- 60 some teens have died in programs, not including bonifide psych facilities.
Injuries,Accidents- The number of broken fingers, arms, teeth knocked out, busted chins, is also unknown, but frequently reported.
Rape,Sexual molestation- That number is unknown as well, but happens too frequently. Didn't a parent report a recent rape at the program being discussed?
Stealing-Ask any kid in a program, if any of his personal belonging were ever stolen by other participants. Could be why most programs don't allow any personal effects.
There are definite consequences of being isolated from the world, being stripped on your identity, being 18 and not having a drivers license, being behind your peers in school, having no knowledge of world events for 2-3 years, etc.
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On 2004-01-12 09:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Another intersting fact is the 97% success rate. This is based on graduates not the after math. However the graduates would be considered the elite group yet it was stated a mistake was made in hiring grads to work in other facilities after one of the grads attacked another staff member. Food for thought is.....If your graduate is the ultimate result of your program and seminars.....why is it a mistake to have them as employees? That is something to ponder."
Maybe I missed something. Where did it say that wwasps doesn't hire program grads? They do. They are working there now. :???:
Why do folks post links to articles that are at least 5 years old? Desparate Measures? 5 years later??
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Anon, just because something was written 5 years ago does not make the information invalid or meaningless.
:wave:
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On 2004-01-12 09:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Another intersting fact is the 97% success rate. This is based on graduates not the after math. However the graduates would be considered the elite group yet it was stated a mistake was made in hiring grads to work in other facilities after one of the grads attacked another staff member. Food for thought is.....If your graduate is the ultimate result of your program and seminars.....why is it a mistake to have them as employees? That is something to ponder."
[/quote]
Maybe I missed something. Where did it say that wwasps doesn't hire program grads? They do. They are working there now. :???:
Why do folks post links to articles that are at least 5 years old? Desparate Measures? 5 years later??"
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I suggest you check into the situation that happened at Dundee before it was closed. The statement of making a mistake in hiring grads came from Mr. KK himself.
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Many of us might feel reluctant to speak and act contrary to expert knowledge, or to even have an opinion at all. The author is talking about his feelings of hesitance in discussing broad societal issues with a holy man who is known for his ongoing dialogue with leaders in all fields.
The Dalai Lama said, in response to Cutler's doubts about his own standing:
"These human problems, these problems in society don't appear from nowhere. They are created by human beings, and arise from the same problems all individuals have; but collectively, on a wider scale, there is an additive effect. But as a psychiatrist I think you are qualified to understand the psychological factors that contribute to the individual destructive behaviors? behaviors that can create problems in society when large groups of people act in certain ways.
And besides, [he added] you are a human being. You live in the world like anyone else. You don't need to be an expert to discuss these things. If these problems in society are to get better, it is not enough that few experts discuss these things. Every individual has to change, and the only way to do this is for ordinary people to have greater awareness of the bigger
problems, and understanding of what creates the problem, and a desire to change things person by person. So, as a member of society, you are as qualified as anyone else. And the only way to change is through education. So if we raise certain questions as we discuss things, then you can read, research, learn about these things.
Find your own examples. That is up to each of us. That is our responsibility."
(The Art of Happiness At Work, His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Cutler, H. C.., 2003,
NY: Riverhead) p. 7)