Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Froderik on December 12, 2003, 12:37:00 AM
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Need money? No problem! Sell your soul to the Devil. Carey did..
http://www.wewantyoursoul.com/index.php (http://www.wewantyoursoul.com/index.php)
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Just want to say that I'm going to bed. So if I don't respond to your bullshit, that's why. TaTa. :wave:
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Sweet dreams, Froderick. Too bad all the little kids you purport to care so much about aren't sleeping in their own beds tonight ... thanks to their misguided parents who upon the advice of some ed con or independent referral service, sent their kids away to be raised by strangers.
How evil is that?
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Listen, asshole. For the last time, I have NO AFFILIATION WITH PURE. Get that through your thick fucking skull. I'm not going to say it again. ::troll::
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When I woke up and read the heading of this topic, I knew we were discussing Carey Brock again. I don't know anyone else who has sold their soul to the devil. Her name doesn't even have to appear in the heading, the description tells us who it is.
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Frod, the way this is shaping up, the only party possibly harmed by Carey's providing info to WWASP is PURE. My heart does not bleed for them, either. They sell the souls of other people's children every day for a living.
The weavers of linen and hempen cloth, ... may exercise their trades without paying any fine.
-- Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations (chapter X, part II) notes:
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No comment on totally fucking over people's privacy? I guess you're gonna say something like, "They could have gotten that information anyway, anyone could do it..it's easy, etc.."
But why hand it over to them??
the only party possibly harmed by Carey's providing info to WWASP is PURE
Anyone with half a brain would question this statement here. What makes you so damned sure of that? Elaborate on that. So info is given to WWASP. We have to wonder WHY it is that they want it so bad that they would pay for it. Must be useful to them, right? So it's safe to say that by handing this info over, Carey was helping WWASP to stay in business in one way or another.
Are you with me so far?
So it's worth helping WWASP to hurt PURE, as you claim? What about your old "Enemies of enemies aren't my friends" theory? Let me ask you this..are YOU selling us out as well? Just wondering..cuz you might as well be Carey's defense attorney..
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-12-12 08:14 ]
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Frod, I have wondered that same question. Ginger sure does defend Carey.
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What a bunch of sore losers. Somebody beats you at your own game and you just can't deal with it. Well, isn't that just a crying shame. Can hardly wait to hear all the screaming and yelling when Froderick and Company wake up to the hard, cold truth. Ever seen any non-solicited (or not paid for) testimonials from kids who appreciated being hauled away to some lock down facility courtesy of an ed con or independent referral agent who profited from helping to lock 'em up?
For the last time, get real or get lost!
:smokin:
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Nobody's lost anything yet, fool. Again, I have no interests in PURE. Only in the truth. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Go fuck yourself, anon. Stop barking up the same tree. You're the one making a complete ass out of herself. Well, isn't that just a crying shame. Can hardly wait to hear all the screaming and yelling...yeah, yeah, yeah...what a babbling cretin you have proved yourself to be. Repitition can be a good teacher, so...repeat after me:
This isn't about PURE.
This isn't about PURE.
This isn't about PURE.
This isn't about PURE.
This isn't about PURE.
This isn't about PURE.
This isn't about PURE.
This isn't about PURE.
::bangin::
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U.S. District Court
District of Utah (Central)
CIVIL DOCKET FOR CASE #: 02-CV-10
World Wide Assn Spec v. Pure, et al
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#25349 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3486&forum=9&start=0#25349)
Frod, are you suggesting that the docket is bogus?
From where I sit, it looks like this is all about PURE trying to make a boogieman out of Carey in order to draw attention away from more important issues.To seek out the best through the whole Union, we must resort to the information which from the best of men, acting disinterestedly and with the purest motives, is sometimes incorrect.
Thomas Jefferson Letter to Elias Shipman and others of New Haven, July 12, 1801.
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That's beside the point. Why do defend a snitch, unless you're one too?
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Froderick is a stupid head
Froderick is a stupid head
Froderick is a stupid head
Froderick is a stupid head
::noway:: ::noway:: ::noway:: ::noway:: ::noway:: ::noway:: ::noway:: ::noway::
Get a brain, Froderick, it's no fun debating issues with a stupid head.
B.O.R.I.N.G.
:skull:
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You're a retard anon. Fuck off.
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-12-12 11:29 ]
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On 2003-12-12 11:28:00, Froderik13 wrote:
"You're a retard anon. Fuck off.
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-12-12 11:29 ]"
Stupid Head Froderick. Works for me!!!! The guy is definitly a loser and just called someone a retard. Guess it takes one to know one, eh Stupid Head Froderick? LOL.
:skull:
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frod, im with you!!! she just didnt hand over pure stuff!!! she handed over personal e-mails for money to help the enemy!!! ginger im shocked, you said you wanted proff she did it, she gave you the truth. she said she did hand the e-mails for money.
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On 2003-12-12 17:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"frod, im with you!!! she just didnt hand over pure stuff!!! she handed over personal e-mails for money to help the enemy!!! ginger im shocked, you said you wanted proff she did it, she gave you the truth. she said she did hand the e-mails for money."
::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::crybaby::
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Oh, and you supposedly care about "the cause," I'll bet. What a hypocrite, whoever the fuck you are. Carey's guilty, but I guesss you don't care. I wonder why...
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From where I sit, it looks like this is all about PURE trying to make a boogieman out of Carey
{:>/]
You need to get up and move. Your view is distorted.
What Carey is, she made herself.
You wanted proof; where is the proof, you kept asking.
Well now you have it.
So now, its no big deal; whats all the fuss, you say; you are Still trying to flip the situation and make out as if there is a distortion campaign being run against Carey; instead of whats actual; she running a distortion campaign against a whole group of hard working, sincere and deeply concerned people.
Why?
You called her in May and got the scoop, you think. Why? Why are you so ready to accept her twisted lies; but refuse to except the truth about her, in the face of overwelming evidence?
Its a mystery. . .
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Any of you hard-working, sincere and deeply concerned folks know what this preliminary injuction against PURE is all about?
It's a mystery ...
Why?
:eek:
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Guess nobody is home. Oh well, that's par for the course. Ask a question that can't be answered with an attack on Carey, and none of these people can step up to the plate. Sure says a lot about the M.O. of these so-called hard working, sincere, and deeply concerned people, doesn't it? Jokers.
::bomb::
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Could have something to do with the hour you made your post. Not everyone sits in front of their computer all night...
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-12-13 08:31 ]
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Notice how Froderick can't post a single sentence without giving in to the temptation to edit (censor) himself? As for the question about the preliminary injunction, it does not take a genius to know why these folks are playing possum. NOt too worry, anybody with a PACER account can read the details for themselves.
:idea:
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Speaking only for myslef -
I don't answer it b/c I don't know.
It has nothing to do with me and what I am working towards.
I think most of the so-called hard working, sincere, and deeply concerned people, would say something similar.
The One person from the group in question who this concerns, doesn't read fornits.
This has been explained to you Ginger, many times.
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It'll all come out in the end. i'm content to wait and see. 'Bye.
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On 2003-12-13 09:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Speaking only for myslef -
I don't answer it b/c I don't know.
It has nothing to do with me and what I am working towards.
I think most of the so-called hard working, sincere, and deeply concerned people, would say something similar.
The One person from the group in question who this concerns, doesn't read fornits.
This has been explained to you Ginger, many times."
"The one person from the group in question who this (preliminary injunction?) concerns, doesn't read fornits".
Anon, care to explain how you know what this "one person" does or does not do? I'm serious. Fess up.
:roll:
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But what is this preliminary injunction all about?
Frod, you remind me of those idiots who went around a couple of years ago holding public rallies and protests, burning copies of some movie they thought was sacriligious. Every time I found someone who was taking part in that cause, I asked them if they'd seen the movie. Not one of the people I asked had seen it. In fact, most of them took umbrage at the suggestion.
Why did I call Carey back in May? Well, for one, I just really wanted to talk to the lady who'd planned and executed the great escape for her sons. For another, I'd read something about some photos of one of the facilities having been taken by a PI. Different people were saying different things, so I asked everybody what they thought or knew, and Carey was one of those people.
What is this cause you're so sure Carey is out to destroy, Frod? If you look back to the beginning of this whole brawl, you may find it's a lot more complicated than you seem to think.
You think Carey's the devil because she got paid a chunk of change for some data. Odds are pretty good that WWASP would have gotten the data by subpoena anyway. The people making the most noise about this heinous crime get paid many times that amount, not for supplying data relavent to a lawsuit (which they're also doing; that's how the discovery process works), but for arranging to kidnap real, live human beings from their beds at night. To my mind, that's just not a cause worth celebrating or protecting.
And what's in that data? Obviously, none of these people who want so badly for all of us to take their word for everything is willing to give us copies. How come? Wouldn't it just settle a lot of arguments and prove, once and for all, who's being truthful if we could all just see for ourselves what they're arguing about and draw our own conclusions?
Here's another interesting question for you to mull over. Who started up this war again the other day? Who was the anon poster who was an eye witness to the deposition? I honestly don't know. If I wanted to find out for sure, I would have to either bring some legal action or commit a crime to find out. Do you know where your information is coming from? Why are you so ready to believe this anonymous person's take on everything and completely unwilling to get all sides of the story? I suspect it's that you just need for this to be a simple, black and white issue with two dimentional good guys and bad guys. But it's just not that simple, Frod. Sorry. I didn't make it so, it just is what it is.
Now, as to Carey having hurt a lot of people other than PURE, I don't know 1) if that's true or 2) that she really had any choice. It was a la plata o el plomo ultimatum.
Honestly, I think a lot of people have fucked up in a major way here. Last May, Carey was trying to get the word out that PURE was not what they claimed to be. They weren't working to save kids from being dissapeared into private gulags. They work to divert kids into the private gulags that pay them. I think that was the primary reason why Carey got banned from the Trekers' list and why the Trekers followed her over here and started this whole smear campaign. You've fallen for it, hook, line and sinker.
I do not agree with Carey on everything. I found that out by discussing real issues with her, right here in these public forums, right in front of God and everybody! It's a really effective means of finding out what people think. You should try it sometime. It really, really works!
Homeschool is self regulating. The school board is not going to have illiterate useless people living in their homes forever if they don't have a working education policy.
--Sisterbluerose
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I refuse to read your goddamn post right now... FYI, I didn't post this:
On 2003-12-13 09:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Speaking only for myslef -
I don't answer it b/c I don't know.
It has nothing to do with me and what I am working towards.
I think most of the so-called hard working, sincere, and deeply concerned people, would say something similar.
The One person from the group in question who this concerns, doesn't read fornits.
This has been explained to you Ginger, many times."
"The one person from the group in question who this (preliminary injunction?) concerns, doesn't read fornits".
Anon, care to explain how you know what this "one person" does or does not do? I'm serious. Fess up.
Quit trying to flame with me.
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-12-13 10:06 ]
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On 2003-12-13 10:05:00, Froderik13 wrote:
"I refuse to read your goddamn post right now... FYI, I didn't post this:
On 2003-12-13 09:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Speaking only for myslef -
I don't answer it b/c I don't know.
It has nothing to do with me and what I am working towards.
I think most of the so-called hard working, sincere, and deeply concerned people, would say something similar.
The One person from the group in question who this concerns, doesn't read fornits.
This has been explained to you Ginger, many times."
"The one person from the group in question who this (preliminary injunction?) concerns, doesn't read fornits".
Anon, care to explain how you know what this "one person" does or does not do? I'm serious. Fess up.
Quit trying to flame with me.
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-12-13 10:06 ]"
Frod, listen up. The question was directed to the ANON who said the person the preliminary injunction most concerns, doesn't read fornits. Nobody is flamin' you or anybody else so please, relax will ya?
:wink:
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I was responding to Antigen, just clarifying that I did not post that anon. post, in case she thought that I did. Just trying to eliminate any potential confusion. No matter. I'd be glad to relax, and am trying to. I'd also like to reiterate right now that I want out of this. Someone else can take the helm of the "Carey sucks" club. I'm done. Anything else I say now would be redundant anyway. If someone else wants to take over, fine. If not, fuck it. What does it really matter anyway? It'll all come out in the end, and then we'll see whatever there is to see, right? Man what a waste of time...
But consider me dead and gone, as far as this topic goes... :skull:
Antigen: You think Carey's the devil because she got paid a chunk of change for some data
If they could just subpoena it, then why pay so much $$ for it? It doesn't make sense. If I were the WWASP dude, I'd save myself the 12 grand and have it taken from her. (Someone else can field Ginger's response. Again, I'm done.) 'BYE...
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F-13 has a good point.
Its all getting very redundant.
Carey is what she is. She did what she did.
Think of it what you will.
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Well, at $400/hr, they paid for 31.25 hrs.
How many hours do you suppose they've already spent trying to get info out of the schools that Sue refers people to? And how much calendar time do you think it would take to actually locate the data from another source (it's almost impossible that it doesn't exist somewhere) and to actually get it?My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.
-- Ashleigh Brilliant
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Yep, what's done is done. Wonder who the next victim of the anti-carey-club will be? Sure hope it isn't good ole' Frod, who because he is such a loose cannon, must be sending these folks right over the edge.
:rofl:
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Carey Quotes? (prior to her transformation)
?I have no other agenda. My only concern is for these kids to get the help they need and for Litchfield to be held accountable.?
?We talked about the exploitation of the children and their parents.?
?I just don't want her to distract from the main point of our mission which is to expose Dundee for its exploitation of teenagers and their families.?
?Sounds like Amberly did a great job. Geoff and Garred always said, "she (Amberly) was always on the side of the kids, and she cared about each and everyone of them. She was the one who really wanted to help us to be a better person."
?Makes me ill to think that there are kids in the hands of people that deceptive.?
?I just finished reading Amberly's letter. It really hurt my heart. It made me cry. I want to do everything I can to be sure that that man can not hurt anyone else. He should be in prison.?
?It is too easy for information to get into the wrong hands.?
?I believe Sue does know and believe WWASP programs are bad. But because of her company and her profession others may believe she has another motive?
?We do not want any more information getting out that may alert the Litchfield?s or any other employees of the programs.?
? I know that WWASP is forming a "Special Parent Reference List" to try and discredit what we bring before the media. Have you seen the letter that Ken Kay sent out to the parents with regard to the list??
?I want to expose Dundee for what it really is, a controversial and abusive holding facility for at risk teens that exploits teens and their families in a time of need. "What they advertise is not what you get!"
?The kids that are there have no way of reporting the abuse to those on the outside. They are cut off from all outside communication until they have been in the program long enough to be either, for lack of a better word, "brainwashed" or until they have learned how to just go along with it, not speak out against it, in order to "graduate ?the program.?
?The parents who send their kids to these schools attend seminars in the states that teach them to "trust the program". These are parents who are a wits end, looking for help, and they truly believe their kids are being helped. They are being deceived.?
? I will continue to speak my piece and my experience throughout this fight against Dundee and WWASP.?
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Oh Please, "The Worm Turns"? Sounds to me like what happened to Carey is typical of what happens to most parents who get involved with the teen-help-industry. In fact, the same can be said for some of the PURE volunteers who prior to their affiliation with that organization, belonged to a different one called WWASPS. May have even recruited for them in exchange for free tuition, if I am not mistaken. Care to explain what that's all about? Ka Ching!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:rofl:
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Yep, what's done is done. Wonder who the next victim of the anti-carey-club will be? Sure hope it isn't good ole' Frod, who because he is such a loose cannon, must be sending these folks right over the edge.
What folks?
I'm not even sure who that's supposed to be offensive to, if anyone. Bear with me...
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On 2003-12-13 17:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
Sounds to me like what happened to Carey is typical of what happens to most parents who get involved with the teen-help-industry.
Exactly! There lives more faith, in honest doubt,
Believe me, than in half the creeds.
Alfred Lord Tennyson
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It's "typical" to offer WWASP misappropriated emails in exchange for $100,000.00, but then do it, just for kicks, for $12,500? How is that a typical parent-WWASP experience FOOL!?
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Don't worry cause Antigen makes a rotten public defender. Did Antigen get the other 87.500?
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On 2003-12-14 14:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It's "typical" to offer WWASP misappropriated emails in exchange for $100,000.00, but then do it, just for kicks, for $12,500? How is that a typical parent-WWASP experience FOOL!?
"
Anon, go read Sheff's personal story. Paragraph 14 where she writes about how she was once upon a time, a WWASPS recruiter. Is that A-OKAY with you? Just curious where you stand on that issue, which BTW is part of the public (court) record, NOT a red herring.
:silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly:
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On 2003-12-14 14:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It's "typical" to offer WWASP misappropriated emails in exchange for $100,000.00, but then do it, just for kicks, for $12,500? How is that a typical parent-WWASP experience FOOL!?
"
No, but then I don't have a lot of reason to believe it went down that way. It seems a lot more likely to me that Carey got a letter or phone call similar in tone and content to the one I got from Tanya A. Yatsco back in September.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... =9&start=0 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=3008&forum=9&start=0)
The salient content is this, in case you're having a difficult time seeing the similarity: " Such postings must immediately be removed from your website and you must cease and desist posting any such items in the future. Failure to do so will result in legal action against Fornits and the infividuals posting these defamatory statements." and this "Again, if the defamatory postings regarding Academy at Ivy Ridge are not immediately removed, we will commense suit against you."
Now, they didn't offer me any money. But then, I'm not holding any information that would be costly or difficult for them to get for themselves. But they did just exactly as I've seen other people say they do; they use a carrot and stick approach; do what we ask or we'll sue. Now, I have a fairly good idea of what my rights and obligations are and I know that no one can force me into involuntary servitude like that, not legally anyway. So I called their bluff.
Carey and I have our differences of opinion. You'd know that, of course, if you had any interest whatever in the conversations that go on publicly in these forums other than the perennial group comedown sessions. But we have one thing in common, I think, that seperates us from all you ppl who keep bitching and bellyaching about the way I run this free server that you keep using. We both want all the information out. We're not trying to shut anybody up.
You folks and WWASP have that in common, though. You seem to have a difficult time understanding the concept that no one is responsible for controling your fingers and your keyboard but you yourself. And you are not responsible for what anyone else says. They are. You have not the power or obligation to try and shut anybody up, ok? Web pages are like babies -- creation involves a level of enthusiasm that does not necessarily carry over into maintenance.
--Joe Chew
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
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Who was talking about power? You brought up that subject. Again, you're not helping anyone here.
On the other post, again, Sue Sheff or Scheff, whichever, is as bad as WWASP if she's in the same business as it.
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If those emails were "misappropriated"- stolen, shared without permission, whatever- how could WWASP use them to their benefit in a legal proceeding?
If those emails were in Carey's possession, they were her property, to do with as she chose, correct?
How is the information contained in those emails detrimental to PURE? What exactly is it that PURE would rather WWASP not know? How will it damage PUREs defense or enhance WWASPs position?
Here's the irony of this situation based on the storyline as it's unfolded here:
Sue gets burned by WWASP and seeks revenge by setting up a rival organization.
WWASP gets burned by PURE and seeks revenge by filing a lawsuit.
PURE seeks further revenge by orchestrating a class action lawsuit against WWASP. (According to Carey)
Carey gets fucked by WWASP and PURE, but apparently really has it in for PURE, therefore seeks revenge by selling out to WWASP.
I think there were options other than selling the info or turning it over by subpoena. Computers crash everyday.
I can't figure why all the fuss or surprise around her selling the info to begin with. She has repeatedly stated that her beef was not with WWASP, but the individuals that wronged her- Dundee, Amberley, Joe, Sue, and Bozak. As if Dundee is not part of WWASP? That position always concerned me- and I don't have a vested interest either way.
What did she do with all the potentially damaging information she had on WWASP? All those exchanges on and off the BBS. Did she offer to sell that to PURE? Now that would have been savvy. Or had she already pass those on, free of charge?
I just hope after all this drama that the lawsuit is not a wash, with both parties walking away with a slap on the hand.
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Debroah,
The idea here is not so much to get legalistic. Whether or not the emails can be presented to a jury in a legal proceding is probably an evidence issue, which neither of us are qualified to give an opinion on. It's morally wrong that she did what she did and that's even if everyone screwed her over (using your metaphor). Any collateral damage is unacceptable. The rest of your post I agree!
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Seems to me that when it comes to the teen-help industry, Deborah knows better than most there are few to no rules. Ethics and morals? Hah! What Carey did or did not do, pales in comparison to the allegations leveled against programs, ed cons and independent referral services who are guilty of the worst kind of profiteering. Personally, I don't think anyone would have done what she did if they did not believe they could do so without fear of legal repercussions. It just doesn't make sense. As for violating the moral code of a bunch of people with a self-serving agenda of their own, Big Whup.
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Thanks for the enlightening post. Deborah's post was valuable and I agreed with 95%, I just think (and this is not self-serving at all) that taking money from WWASP scum sucks big time.
There has to be some concern over morality!
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On 2003-12-14 19:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thanks for the enlightening post. Deborah's post was valuable and I agreed with 95%, I just think (and this is not self-serving at all) that taking money from WWASP scum sucks big time.
There has to be some concern over morality!"
Anon, maybe in a perfect world. And really, you are not the only one concerned with the lack of morality. Just imagine if these ed cons, program owners and operators, and the independent referral agents would not take money from desperate and/or misguided parents because it was morally wrong? Instead of this being a multi-billion dollar and growing industry, many of these folks would be forced to close their doors for business.
:wave:
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On 2003-12-14 19:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2003-12-14 19:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thanks for the enlightening post. Deborah's post was valuable and I agreed with 95%, I just think (and this is not self-serving at all) that taking money from WWASP scum sucks big time.
There has to be some concern over morality!"
Anon, maybe in a perfect world. And really, you are not the only one concerned with the lack of morality. Just imagine if these ed cons, program owners and operators, and the independent referral agents would not take money from desperate and/or misguided parents because it was morally wrong? Instead of this being a multi-billion dollar and growing industry, many of these folks would be forced to close their doors for business.
:wave: "
Oops, make that .."forced to close their doors for LACK of business."
:grin:
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Clarification: Independent Referral Agents don't take money from desperate and/or misguided parents. They take money from schools and programs in exchange for referring clients.
Is this moral or immoral? I think the answer depends upon who you ask!
:rofl:
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Yes, Deb rocks! :nworthy:
What is most disturbing to me about ODD and other 'disorders' is that there is no real attempt to ascertain the environmental picture ? the social, political, and economic factors that drive a person's behavior. We're asking the wrong questions ? we shouldn't be asking, 'does this kid have a disease called ODD?' but 'why is this kid so at odds with his or her society?'
--Leah Harris, a progressive psychiatrist
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Personally, I don't think anyone would have done what she did if they did not believe they could do so without fear of legal repercussions
Hmmm...interesting. Yes, the programs are evil. But why do we have to compare Carey's crime to the programs'? Kind of pointless in a way...
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We both want all the information out. We're not trying to shut anybody up.
Amen, sister!!!!!!
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On 2003-12-14 20:07:00, Froderik13 wrote:
"Personally, I don't think anyone would have done what she did if they did not believe they could do so without fear of legal repercussions
Hmmm...interesting. Yes, the programs are evil. But why do we have to compare Carey's crime to the programs'? Kind of pointless in a way..."
Well Frod, I think Anon has a good point. People think Carey was immoral to take money from WWASPS but everyday, some ed con or indendependent referral agent takes money from a program as payment for helping to facilitate the FORCED institutionalization of a minor without due-process. By all accounts, this is unethical and immoral. Kids have fundamental rights, including the right to depend upon adults not to exploit them under the guise of "fixing" them or "helping families heal".
Bottom line, everybody has their price and don't these program owners and operators know it! Best to wait until all the facts comes out instead of speculating. Trust me, the truth is stranger than fiction!!!
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The problem is that you don't tell us enough, Carey. I've got my strap ready...
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::bangin::