Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Hamiltonf on November 21, 2003, 06:11:00 PM
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Ritalin, Dexedrine, Methamphetamine, as I understand it are in pretty much the same class. The last thread on SSRI's was very interesting and had some very informed opinions especially from Ginger (although it's dandelion, not dandilion, but that's my English origins coming out -- Americans are rotten spellers)
Anyway, I came across a case just yesterday of a 4-yr old who had been diagnosed with ... you've got it Oppositional Defiant Disorder AND Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Prescription? Dexedrine. Then he has to take some other drug to "slow him down" The child hasn't even started school yet. the mother hasn't had alcohol for 5 years so FAS doesn't seem to be in the picture.
What the hell is going on here?
Almost every person I talk to has a kid or knows of kids, that are taking Ritalin at teacher's insistance. but this is before school, and it's Dexadrine. Then the next step up is crystal Meth, right?
[ This Message was edited by: Hamiltonf on 2003-11-21 15:28 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Hamiltonf on 2003-11-21 15:28 ]
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Actually, the research shows that if you treat ADD early with stimulants, the chances of adolescent or adult drug abuse are at least cut by half.
And, the research also shows that medication is superior to medication plus behavior therapy or to therapy alone. That was from a big, multi-site study by Harvard U. researchers.
Of course, there are kids on these meds who shouldn't be on them. But try this: talk to parents whose kids are on medication. You will find a story of 1000 other things tried first before resorting to drugs and then the drugs worked better than the other stuff. Or they didn't-- but what you won't find is parents who just say "oh sure let's put my kids on drugs" and that's the first thing they do.
If you do find parents who thoughtlessly put their kids on drugs as first option, I'd like to know their names because I've searched for them and never found them-- despite their alleged presence in all the bewailing and bemoaning of those who demonize drugs of any kind.
And yeah, Dexedrine is exactly the same drug many speed users inject-- just as heroin is the same medication that is used for pain across the world. So what?
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Almost 77% of the time, either teachers or
parents are the first one's to suggest ADHD as a diagnosis?
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/461776?mpid=20246 (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/461776?mpid=20246)
Results: Teachers were most likely to be first to suggest the diagnosis of ADHD (46.4%; 95% CI, 44.1%-48.7%), followed by parents (30.2%; 95% CI,
28.3%-32.0%), primary care physicians (11.3%; 95% CI, 9.7%-12.8%), school personnel other than teachers (6.0%; 95% CI, 4.9%-7.2%), consultants such as child psychiatrists or psychologists (3.1%; 95% CI, 2.3%-3.9%) and other specified categories (3.0%; 95% CI, 2.4%-3.6%).
> Conclusions: Teachers and other school personnel are often the first to suggest the diagnosis of ADHD in children in the greater Washington, DC, area. Regional variations in the prescribing of medication for ADHD may be
caused at least in part by variations in the likelihood of a teacher suggesting the diagnosis of ADHD.
Rather than duplicate, more on this topic at:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... 9&start=20 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=2510&forum=9&start=20)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2539&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2539&forum=9)
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Journal of Learning Disabilities, Nov/Dec. 1998 issue, researchers at Univ. of California at Berkeley found significant linear relationship between amount of childhood stimulant treatment (such as Ritalin) and the likelihood of becoming either tobacco dependent or cocaine dependent in
adulthood. Of those children who were diagnosed as ADD and were NOT treated with stimulants, as adults, 32 percent were tobacco dependent, and 15
percent were cocaine dependent. In contrast, of those children who were diagnosed as ADD and were treated with stimulants for one year or longer, as
adults, 49 percent were tobacco dependent, and 27 percent were cocaine dependent.
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http://www.ritalindeath.com/board/?topi ... 1&msg=2926 (http://www.ritalindeath.com/board/?topic=topic1&msg=2926)
There have been a lot more deaths of children, reported to the FDA caused from stimulate medication, than deaths reported, caused from a milder over the counter drug called Ephedra
How many more children need to die before the FDA puts a stop to the wide spread trend of dispensing lethal stimulants drugs to children. These drugs are known to destroy the cardiovascular system, and with so many deaths reported to the FDA, what?s the hold up, why is this being kept so quiet, and why hasn?t the FDA done something about this$ Could it be because the FDA is sleeping with the drug companies?
Lawrence Smith http://www.ritalindeath.com (http://www.ritalindeath.com)
[His son died from Ritalin]
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Deborah, that study was discredited because at the time of the research, they didn't control for symptom severity-- so what happened is, the people with more severe problems (and thus initial higher risk for substance abuse because ADD increases that risk) were given the drugs and those with less risk were not.
The more recent studies cntrolled for those confounding effects (and were published in much better journals, probably not surprisingly).
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There's also no evidence to support the idea that "these drugs destroy the cardiovascular system."
The problem is, we've gotten in such the habit of demonizing drugs that we've begun to believe our own myths.
Correlation is not causation-- just because someone dies and has Ritalin in his or her system, doesn't mean that the death was caused by it.
Ritalin is generic-- there's no reason for drug companies to promote it, also.
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The Berkeley Press Release
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/rele ... -1999.html (http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/5-5-1999.html)
Lambert's research is based on an ongoing 26-year study of 492 San Francisco Bay area children, half of whom suffered from some degree of ADHD. The remaining children did not have ADHD.
In her 26-year study, Lambert found that the more severe the ADHD, the more likely youngsters would become regular smokers. Ritalin apparently increased the likelihood of cigarette smoking and cocaine abuse.
For instance, by age 17, half the teenagers with severe ADHD smoked regularly, compared to only 30 percent of those suffering milder symptoms. And while nearly half of the youngsters treated with Ritalin had become regular smokers by age 17, only 30 percent of those who had never been treated smoked daily.
Adult cigarette smokers treated with Ritalin as children were twice as likely to abuse cocaine as those who never smoked or were treated with CNS stimulant drugs, Lambert found. Only two percent of those studied who had never smoked or taken Ritalin were dependent on cocaine as adults, compared to 40 percent among those who both smoked and were treated with CNS stimulants.
http://www.adhdfraud.org/commentary/121802-3.htm (http://www.adhdfraud.org/commentary/121802-3.htm)
Muniz/Novartis close with yet another lie; that Ritalin (methylphenidate) is not addictive. He/they state:
"Moreover, neither the researchers nor the article mention other published peer-reviewed human studies demonstrating that stimulant treatment for ADHD actually reduces the risk for substance abuse among ADHD patients, who are at an increased risk for this behavior when left untreated. One such study, conducted by researchers at Harvard, was published in the August 1999 issue of Pediatrics [Biederman, et al] and found a significant decrease in substance abuse among adolescent and adult ADHD patients who were treated with stimulants.
Biederman, et al, researchers long-time ties to Novartis and CHADD, compared 56 medicated and 19 (nineteen) non-medicated ADHD subjects, and concluded (1) that the never-validated "disease" ADHD was a risk factor for substance use disorder (SUD) in adolescence, and (2) that Ritalin/amphetamine treatment?treatment with substances of addiction--was associated with an 85% reduction in risk for SUD in ADHD youth. With this single, small, contrived, study, Biederman, et al, Muniz and Novartis claimed to negate a half-century of addiction/pharmacological literature on Ritalin/methylphenidate. Despite petitions by Ciba/Novartis and CHADD, the DEA and INCB continue, as the evidence demands, to classify Ritalin as a Schedule II, controlled substance. The DEA states [Methylphenidate (A Background Paper) October, 1995]:
Fred A. Baughman Jr., MD, Neurology/Child Neurology
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http://www.ritalindeath.com/ (http://www.ritalindeath.com/)
According to Dr. Ljuba Dragovic, the Chief Pathologist of Oakland County, Michigan, upon autopsy, Matthew's heart showed clear signs of small vessel damage caused from the use of Methylphenidate (Ritalin).
I was told by one of the medical examiners that a full-grown man's heart weighs about 350 grams and that Matthew's heart's weight was about 402 grams. Dr. Dragovic said this type of heart damage is smoldering and not easily detected with the standard test done for prescription refills. The standard test usually consists of blood work, listening to the heart, and questions about school behaviors, sleeping and eating habits.
http://www.addmtc.com/ref2.html (http://www.addmtc.com/ref2.html)
These data suggest that MPH may have persistent, cumulative effects on the myocardium. [From Department of Anatomy and Neurobiology, St. Louis University, St. Louis, MO 63104]
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Deborah ! your research is fabulous. I have a grandson on Ritalin and I am going to print off this research for my daughter. Keep up the good work!!!
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On 2003-11-21 15:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
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Actually, the research shows that if you treat ADD early with stimulants, the chances of adolescent or adult drug abuse are at least cut by half.
I can't buy that at all. I just know too many people who got hooked on RX speed as kids and switched to either diverted or illicit speed when the doctors decided to cut them off.
And, the research also shows that medication is superior to medication plus behavior therapy or to therapy alone. That was from a big, multi-site study by Harvard U. researchers.
Of course, there are kids on these meds who shouldn't be on them. But try this: talk to parents whose kids are on medication. You will find a story of 1000 other things tried first before resorting to drugs and then the drugs worked better than the other stuff. Or they didn't-- but what you won't find is parents who just say "oh sure let's put my kids on drugs" and that's the first thing they do.
Sorry, again, not at all consistent with my experience. I've seen mothers use the drugs as a threat; "If you don't behave, I'll make you take your medicine!"
If you do find parents who thoughtlessly put their kids on drugs as first option, I'd like to know their names because I've searched for them and never found them-- despite their alleged presence in all the bewailing and bemoaning of those who demonize drugs of any kind.
And yeah, Dexedrine is exactly the same drug many speed users inject-- just as heroin is the same medication that is used for pain across the world. So what?"
Look, I like drugs. I always have. I've tried quite a few just out of curiosity. I'm not an anti-drug zealot. But I'm not a pro-drug zealot either. There is just no way that as many young kids as are being prescribed psyche drugs can possibly be abnormal. By definition, they're the normal one just because there are so many more of them than kids who don't show these 'signs' of dysfunction.The world is so exquisite, with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's no good evidence. Far better, it seems to me, to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.
--Carl Sagan
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On 2003-11-21 21:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
There's also no evidence to support the idea that "these drugs destroy the cardiovascular system."
Oh, come on now! How many more prominant middle age blowskis have to keel over of heart attack? Speed is as bad for your heart as alcohol is for your liver. Reasearch is great for ferreting out the nitty, gritty details. But some things are so obvious it doesn't really take an expert.The most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of
knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Required reading for any parent who is considering medications for ADD/ADHD. One of the best I've seen- covers all the bases.
http://www.consciencedupeuple.com/Rital ... DDICTS.doc (http://www.consciencedupeuple.com/Ritalin_Story_-_HOW_PSYCHIATRY_IS_MAKING_DRUG_ADDICTS.doc)
Re: ADD and chemical imbalance
The truth is that you have a right to know that this is all an invention. Most of what you will hear is pure unfounded false "science" and is the product of the ravings of a single psychiatrists in the US who first put it out as "theory" to attract drug company funding to his university. The theory, thus funded became the basis for a multi-billion dollar industry world wide which has attracted psychiatrists, pediatricians, insurance companies, school officials and teachers, all of whom profit, along with the drug companies, all at the ultimate expense of the children.
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The question, ?Are we overmedicating our kids with psychiatric drugs?? was once again brought to our attention by a recent cover story in Time Magazine. I?ll answer with another question, ?How much more evidence do we need to decide something is terribly awry with our society and culture -- and especially with the way we address the behavior and performance problems of children??
Rates of psychiatric diagnosis and medication use continue to soar. An estimated five million children take Ritalin type stimulant drugs. A national survey revealed one in ten eleven year old white boys to be on Ritalin. Data on other psychiatric drugs are less available, but easily millions take Prozac type medications and hundreds of thousands are on similarly untested (for children) medications like the anti-seizure drug, Depakote or anti-psychotic, Risperdal. It?s now not uncommon to find three year olds taking Ritalin and teens on four different psychiatric drugs simultaneously.
Leaders in American child psychiatry say this increase in the use of psychiatric medication comes because of greater public awareness and improved diagnosis of children?s mental illness. They point to prevalence surveys indicating 10% of American children have a disorder. These studies confuse symptoms with impairment (how affected are these children really?) and wind up medicalizing what was once extremes of normal coping behavior. All this ?pathology? out there that needs treatment is used to justify and defend the alarming rise in meds for kids. People forget that at one time in the 1960s, using the psychiatric standards of the day, sixty per cent of people living in Manhattan were judged to be possibly mentally ill.
American psychiatry is missing the big picture. We have a major public health problem in our country and our doctors continue to focus on the individual. Before the biological revolution in psychiatry, doctors addressed the individual child?s interior world. Now it?s his brain that needs treatment. But really nothing has changed in that the larger social and cultural factors involved in generating stress and mental illness in kids are ignored.
Let me clue you in ? if you didn?t know this already. We live in a very busy very materialistic society. We have come to expect more from our children developmentally and educationally in the last twenty years than ever before. Five year olds are expected to read and every kid is expected to go to college. Discipline of children which has been eroding for decades is completely in the toilet (parents are too afraid or guilty to say ?no? and a physical intervention has you worried about Children?s Protective Services).
We have a public that has been manipulated to believe their kid has a brain disorder by the TV commercials of a drug industry. Doctors stand to be paid three times more by insurance companies to see four ?med checks? rather than one psychotherapy session. Everyone is under pressure (economic and emotional) so the ?quick fix? becomes attractive to all involved.
So what?s wrong with that. Don?t some of these drugs ?work? to relieve symptoms and the distress of children and their families? The answer is a qualified ?yes? on the short term but no one knows the long term effects and safety of most of these medications. Doctors, in their desire to help, run a great risk here of violating their Hippocratic Oath of ?First do no harm.?
But we are missing the big picture. Every day I write another psychiatric medication to ?ease the suffering? of a child. In the same way, if a child presented with dehydration from acute diarrhea I would treat that child immediately with fluids without waiting to discover the specific cause of the illness. But over time, as I saw more children with the same condition, and learned they were drinking river water possibly contaminated by a factory upstream, it would be unconscionable for me to simply treat the diarrhea without at least raising questions about the source of this contamination. American psychiatry, by ignoring the larger public health issues associated with the huge rise in psychiatric drugs for children, runs the risk of being complicitous with values and forces that are harmful to children and families. When will we have learned enough to address this bigger issue of what?s good for our kids?
Source: http://www.docdiller.com (http://www.docdiller.com)
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http://content.health.msn.com/content/a ... /95700.htm (http://content.health.msn.com/content/article/78/95700.htm)
Preteen Ritalin May Increase Depression
Early Use of ADHD Drug Alters Brain, Rat Studies Show
By Daniel DeNoon
Reviewed By Brunilda Nazario, MD on Monday, December 08, 2003 WebMD Medical News
Dec. 8, 2003 -- Ritalin use in preteen children may lead to depression later in life, studies of rats suggest.
It's an open question whether what passes for depression in lab rats has anything to do with depression in humans. But early use of Ritalin and other stimulant drugs seems to permanently alter animals' brains. That raises concerns that the same thing might be happening in children who take these drugs for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD).
The findings come from a research team led by William A. Carlezon Jr., PhD, director of the behavioral genetics laboratory at McLean Hospital and associate professor at Harvard Medical School. The study appears in the Dec. 15 issue of Biological Psychiatry.
"Rats exposed to Ritalin as juveniles showed large increases in learned-helplessness behavior during adulthood, suggesting a tendency toward depression," Carlezon says in a news release. "These rats also showed abnormally high levels of activity in familiar environments. [This] might reflect basic alterations in the way rats pay attention to their surroundings."
Ritalin, Cocaine, and the Brain
Ritalin and cocaine have different effects on humans. But their effects on the brain are very similar. When given to preteen rats, both drugs cause long-term changes in behavior.
One of the changes seems good. Early exposure to Ritalin makes rats less responsive to the rewarding effects of cocaine. But that's not all good. It might mean that the drug short-circuits the brain's reward system. That would make it difficult to experience pleasure -- a "hallmark symptom of depression," Carlezon and colleagues note.
The other change seems all bad. Early exposure to Ritalin increases rats' depressive-like responses in a stress test.
"These experiments suggest that preadolescent exposure to [Ritalin] in rats causes numerous complex behavioral adaptations, each of which endures into adulthood," Carlezon and colleagues conclude. "This work highlights the importance of a more thorough understanding of the enduring neurobiological effects of juvenile exposure to psychotropic drugs."
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SOURCES: Carlezon, W.A. Jr. Biological Psychiatry, Dec. 15, 2003; vol 54: pp 1330-1337. News release, McLean Hospital, Belmont, Mass.
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Not to worry, there's always the other top selling psych drugs for depression. Better read up.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... forum=9&94 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3515&forum=9&94)
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2003-12-09 05:31 ]
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another question is just a very simple one
Is a four year old supposed to sit still?
who would have surrivied in the prairie or woods a child who was very sedentary or active?
We are now medicating the very "survival or the fittest" traits that made these individuals the ones here today.
It is insane to me.
I would worry more about the four year old sitting on his ass then the hyper one.
And if you are going to tell me long term use of speed in a not even fully developed caridovasicular system is not even slightly damaging but adults should not do cocaine that just sounds like complete lies. Total bullshit. I don't buy it. Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other.
--James Madison
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A child is considered overly active and has behavioral issues at school. The school staff may recommend psychiatric intervention and even go as far as to say that medication is necessary, even designating which one.
The child sees the psychiatrist for a brief
session- is never examined to rule out if the child has any physical conditions, allergies, etc. Immediately the child is labeled and given a dose of psychostimulant.
The child develops side effects such as weight loss, insomnia, and possible tics. In order to counteract the insomnia, a new drug such as Klonidine is added.
The child develops emotional lability and has crying episodes and manic behaviors. The psychiatrist is seen again for a brief time, and
on this visit its determined that 'bipolar is
emerging'. The child is then given Depakote or some other mood stablizer. The child now must receive regular blood tests to insure that liver toxicity does not arise.
The child is not overly active, he is quite
docile, so it is reported that improvement has
occurred. However, with the combination of drugs, he develops some psychotic like symptoms where he feels something is crawling on him and has some
hallucinations. The psychiatrist is consulted again, and its determined that bipolar with psychoticfeatures exists or maybe even the possibility of childhood schizophrenia. The child is then given Risperdal or another neuroleptic.
Strangely, the child begins developing unusual jaw movements and muscle rigidity. The parents are concerned and ask the psychiatrist if this is medication related and if the child is overmedicated. The psychiatrist brushes off the question and prescribes Cogentin (used for
Parkinson's) to alleviate the neurological problems but fails to remove the offending agent.
The child's behavior becomes more unusual and bizarre leading to hospitalization where medications are raised and adjusted and new ones added. Then the recommendation comes from the psychiatrist that it would be better for the child to be moved to a residential treatment
facility.
While in the residential facility, the child
is frequently restrained and is injured, he is placed with other children with serious emotional and behavioral distress. He is discharged home having absorbed alot of new negative behaviors from peers, lacking knowledge of the outside world, and with few skills.
So, once the child nears adulthood, it is recommended that he live in a group home where he can be cared for and the psychiatric regiment can be maintained. The child has been 'treated.'
~~Rev. Dan L. Edmunds, MA, EdD (candidate)
President- Rose Garden Children's Foundation
Behavioral Specialist/ Mobile Therapist for private agency Dunmore, PA
http://www.geocities.com/stnektarios (http://www.geocities.com/stnektarios)
http://www.geocities.com/batushkad (http://www.geocities.com/batushkad)
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I was suicidal beginning when I was five years old. It's a minor miracle I survived to adulthood. Nothing was diagnosed until I was in my late teens.
My parents and other family members were nice, but eccentric, people. I was not abused.
Now that mental illness is better understood, every close blood relative I've got has a diagnosis, virtually every blood relative is on psychiatric medication---and it's an improvement.
If you're normal of course it seems bizarre to prescribe psychiatric medication to children.
"How impaired are these children, really?" someone asked---well, dead would be pretty damned impaired.
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The discussion/debate on depression, SSRIs and children happened in this thread:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3515&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3515&forum=9)