Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on November 16, 2003, 02:36:00 PM
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Carey: Just when you least expect it, you will open your door and someone will have legal papers and announce "you have been served". Welcome to the legal world. What goes around, comes around.
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YES!!!!!!
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candid camera will be when you are sticking bottles of rum up you ass and licking the peanut filled shit off the end and someone will say suprise, your one sick fuck
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She still refuses to answer for her actions. She can't be trusted. It's like the story of Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby - The more you try to get answers from her, the more frustratingly evasive she gets. No, she should NOT be banned from this board. Let her reside here in her shame!
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Why Frog do you think I owe you an answer to anything?
Besides I have anwered the quesion you are asking already. I think people have a right to know everything about my experience, not just bits and pieces. If a judge and jury is going to have to make decisions in a law suit, then the only way they will be able to make the right decision will be to have all of the information that is available.
You see when I went to court to get my boys out and when I went to court to keep them from having to go back in, I could not get either side to give me information that could be used in court to tell the judge why I was concerned about the well being of my boys. I think information is vital for making good and informed decisions.
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No you don't owe anyone SHIT...I just thought it would be NICE if you could explain yourself to ther people of this board...word is, you gave that info to WWASP, not just your lawyers... Explanation please?
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Carey is so right. All information should be shared and I understand there is a lot of it against her. Wow, it would be sad to see her wages garnished from the bank she works for. But as she says "all information should be shared" Ha-Ha, works both ways, Carey.
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Thank you anon. Put up or shut up Carey...
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It is Resource Bank, isn't it Carey? We need to share all this information.
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This is your address, isn't it? 577 Cambronne St
Would you rather be served at work or home? We are here to accomidate.
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I have not done anything wrong. If sharing information is a crime, it is not a law that I am aware of.
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regardless of having any money or not carey...you still are required to bring your broke self to court to represent yourself & tell YOUR truths. or you could get a court appointed dude. can spence practice law in louisiana? i doubt it!
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In cival cases regarding slander and defamation there are no court appointed lawyers. So sorry, just get your broke self to court. We will all see you there. Again, where do you want to be served???
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So... who is it that's suing Carey? Or do we have to wait for the formal filing and hope someone shares a copy?
Is it Sue or PURE who are suing Carey? If so, where are they getting all this extra money? Not that making a good income is anything to be ashamed of. But we're talking some serious legal power in the works already. One legal pro I know estimated that, based on that docket, we're probably talking in the neighborhood of well over 100 hours at $400/hr already and the suite's not even at the midway point yet.
So... who's got that much interest in suing Carey and why? Age is mind over matter. If you don't mind...it doesn't matter!
-- Chuck Gauran
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Obviously, money isn't an object. As soon as the paper work is filed, we will make sure you get a copy.
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Defamation of character? Who's been calling who all sorts of names? I have not done anything except tell what the hell has been going on.
You can serve me where ever you please.
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As you stated Carey, what you have done is not a crime. This will be a civil case partially on you being liable for invasion of privacy of several people. The other things will be listed in the papers for you to read when you are served.
Ginger, Why do you assume the two names you mentioned are the ones suing Carey? Do you think there is a cause of action there? I sure do. However, I am not confirming nor denying they will be part of this civil suit.
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I don't think calling names amounts to the same thing as defamation.
And Carey old girl, you are what you are - simple as that. You are wwasps' whore. You made yourself so.
Nothing wrong with what you did? You, even you, can not really believe that.
If it wasn't wrong, why weren't you bosting about it? Instead, you had to be screwed to the wall to get the least bit of admission from you.
If you yourself don't know dam good and well what you've done is dispicable, then why weren't you shouting it out and telling everyone to join you in your openess and honesty?
You are one very sick and very selfish soul; and your very narrow view is going to get you blindsided.
I wonder just how low you'll have to be brought before you'll realize how sick you are and get help.
I've told you before. You don't have to be so angry and hateful and misserable if you don't want to be.
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Thank you Anon! Very well said. :grin:
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If it wasn't wrong, why weren't you bosting about it? Instead, you had to be screwed to the wall to get the least bit of admission from you.
If you yourself don't know dam good and well what you've done is dispicable, then why weren't you shouting it out and telling everyone to join you in your openess and honesty?
What in the hell are you talking about? Shout what out? How do you expect me to address what ever it is you are talking about if you can't be more specific? Your accusations against me are...?
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Whoa Carey Girl!!! Looks like you have shit in your mess kit so to speak. Got alot of people real pissed off at you....Including me you ignorant ass! I can't wait to see your sorry ass drug through court and witness the look on your face when you face those people you stabbed in the back. Those same people who were rooting you on and helping you when you went to pick your son's up. The people whose e-mails that you turned over to wwasp (7,000) to be exact did not have a damned thing to do with your court appearance and keeping your son's from going back to a WWASP facility. You were hammering the Mother of a rape victim to come forward. What did that have to do with the rest of us Carey? I only saw encouragement and compassion from those people that you turned over to WWASP. You are always spouting off about the "TRUTH" well now darlin you better be prepared to prove "EVERY" frigging remark that you have ever made about "ANYONE". :skull:
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Well said anon. Of that 7000 you mentioned, I bet we have another 7000 with Carey's name on them. Honesty, Carey, you preach but don't use. You are sick.
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You ask what you are being accused of in this law suit. I will share a few of the things (not all, I don't want to spoil the surprise)
1) Liable
2) Slander
3) Defamation
4) Invasion of Privacy
5) Intentional Infliction of Pain
If you think this is a joke, think again. Of the 7000 emails, you gave WWASP, your name is on them too. Claiming bankruptcy won't help. Judgements for Civil Actions due to Malice will not be erased. You will live with the judgement until you settle it. Try to get a loan, refinance or even apply for a job.
Ask your attorney if these people have cause of action. Wait, the next knock will be on your door, serving you.
You feel you can turn over any email that is written as PERSONAL. Lets say you wrote your close friend (if you had one) an email saying you had contracted STD. (again, this is just an example) Then your friend gets pissed at you, the letter is her property so she shares it with the Internet World. How would that feel? If it could be proven she had personal reasons to do this, there goes another law suit.
You keep saying you just want to tell the whole story. Nobody gives a shitt about your story anymore. You lost all accountability with everyone when you turned over all the email to WWASP. You had your 15 minutes of fame, give it up, you are old news. You will become new news once you are served. Incidently, don't be surprised if WWASP has listed your name in this law suit, I have heard they have done just this. You are putting your trust in the devil.
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On 2003-11-16 16:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
Ginger, Why do you assume the two names you mentioned are the ones suing Carey? Do you think there is a cause of action there? I sure do. However, I am not confirming nor denying they will be part of this civil suit."
Because, in my experience, everybody who wants us all to hate Carey has been somehow affiliated with PURE.
BTW, when's Huron supposed to file? That's the case I'm really interested. WvP is nothing but insider sniping over inmate brokering. What about the class action against WWASP on behalf of the injured victims? Anyone got any word on that? Hear me people: We now have to deal with another race - small and feeble when our fathers first met them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possessions is a disease with them. These people have made many rules which the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
Chief Sitting Bull, speaking at the Powder River Conference, 1877
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The civil suit I was referring to is not Huron's. It is another one which is against Carey, not WWASP. It will be a reality, Ginger.
As far as Huron, I don't keep up with that. I am part of the law suit against Carey, not with Huron.
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So then I guess I should take that as "Hell no! We don't give a flying run at a rollin' doughnut about any stupid class action on behalf of the kids! All we care about is revenge against Carey!"
Is that inaccurate?
BTW, this is why I don't try to control the dialog around here. There are plenty of places on the net for controled, focused discussion. This is something different. This is a free-for-all where nobody's hiding nothing from noooo body!
Reminds me of an old Irish prayer.
Dear Lord, bless the people who are nice to us and keep them well. And those who are mean to us, please turn their hearts and bless them too. And those who's hearts won't turn, please twist their feet so we'll know them when we see them coming.
Let the reader decide what to make of any of it. I'm just a tech. They don't pay me enough to think for you.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
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Ginger, I did not say that at all. You are asking the wrong person about Huron, is what I said. Sue Scheff, I have heard communicates with them daily. I don't. That is all I was saying. Ask her. If I didn't care about the kids, could I be named in a law suit? Think about it.
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What in the hell are you talking about? Shout what out? How do you expect me to address what ever it is you are talking about if you can't be more specific? Your accusations against me are...?
Carey, This is YET ANOTHER instance of your Tar Baby Syndrome. Either that, or you're just really, really, really thick-headed. Gee...I wonder what anon could have POSSIBLY been referring to here... :flame: :skull:
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On 2003-11-16 18:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If I didn't care about the kids, could I be named in a law suit? Think about it."
Oh, absolutely! And why not? The suit is not about spreading news clippings and court documents to support the truth about WWASP. The lawsuit is about trademark infringement for the purpose of poaching business from their (your?) competition. For all I know, you folks went just as far over the top in your good fight against WWASP as you have against Carey right here on my server. And you're worried about her credibility???
Your argument seems to be based on a bad case of higher purpose complicated by a distinctly possible martyrdome syndrome. Anyone who does not accept your high holy purpose as an article of unquestioned faith must, therefore, be working for the enemy?
Gimme a break, man! Really. I had about enough of this gig over 20 years ago!
Web pages are like babies -- creation involves a level of enthusiasm that does not necessarily carry over into maintenance.
--Joe Chew
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Sorry, Ginger, you are wrong. I am not in the business and if you were a survivor that cared about the others in there, you wouldn't support someone like Carey. Give me a break, I don't even care to hear your story. I have heard it and it obviously didn't affect you enough to care what is still going on. You support someone who has put kids in jeopardy. I don't place kids, recomend placing kids or anything of that sort. You are so bitter and are using it against the wrong people. Try some of that bitterness on Carey. How would you like to still be in a Straight program and have someone like Carey jeopardizing everyones effort to have you removed? Or do you not care anymore? I have cut you slack on your stupid slander because you are a survivor, but, you obviously don't care about the kids still in there.
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For what this might be worth, and it won't be much, as I am an unknown sorce, speaking of what I herd from another unknown sorce; but anyway; as for the action aginst WWASP; RUMOR has it, they will be announcing very soon. I am under the impression this means days as opposed to weeks; but I really do not know.
RUMOR has it, that WWASP has been given notice.
SO, I do think time draws near. Might turn out to be weeks and not days, but time draws near.
And Ginger, it matters to us all very much. Far more so than any other pending leagle problem.
Even so, some of us are also pretty concerned about this other mess Carey has made. It just so happens, that those who worked so hard, and put so much energy and effort into bringing about the pending class/direct action, are the same souls most effected by Carey's viciousness and spite.
I wish there was some way we could throw a big bash when Huron announces.
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Same argument, still not convincing.
There's still a lot I don't know. I understand that no one can answer these questions till all the Jabberwocks are well sated. And even then there might be permanent gag orders and such. So the world may never know.
What exactly was in those emails that could any of it hurt children or prevent them from getting out of WWASP?
How are we, the uninitiated, to know for sure that anyone involved in this really has any better plans for these kids that WWASP does?
Why should I care if PURE gets sued out of existance any more than I would have cared if that had happened to the LIFE program for scalping Straight clients, for example?
More importantly, how do you propose to know for sure what Carey was thinking. The only reason any of us have any cause to bump into each other at all is that either we or our parents or both fucked up in very big ways. Most of us figure it out after awhile. Some never do.
What if Carey just simply fucked up, suffered a lapse in judgement, misidentified innocent people for evil monsters (much as you seem to be doing to me now, just like the Program ppl have always done to all teenagers)
Whatever your resources, if you care about saving kids, then why would you take the time, money and trouble to triffle with Carey. If she betrayed your trust, well then don't trust her with anything, Einstein! But NooOOoo! You have to call for vengence and more suffering, snitch to the authorities and watch as they turn Carey (and, by association, her sons') lives upside down.
That or maybe ya'll are just blowing smoke, fucking with people's minds again.
Our youth can not understand why society chooses to criminalize a behavior with so little visible ill effect or adverse social impact... These young people have jumped the fence and found no cliff.
Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse
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And are you really sure she understood all the implications? Cause there are crimes and then there are mistakes. We all have made mistakes. Is there some good reason to pursue legal action, aside from the sheer joy ya'll seem to be taking in the prospect of Carey suffering? Is anyone likely to be helped in any way by it? Or is it just vindictive as hell?
First management had plans and then strategic plans. Now we have vision, and we're only one small step from hallucination.
-- Ansley Throckmorton upon assuming the presidency of Bangor Theological Seminary in Bangor, Main per Information World 8-4-`97
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Ginger, I can't speak for everyone, but, I do not "fuck" with anyone's mind. If I say it is going to happen, it is, take it to the bank. Defend her all you want, I would love to tell you the reasons, but, you are too locked up in defense of Carey and down on everyone else. I care about Huron's law suit, I just don't care if anyone makes money off of this. I only care that justice is done and Carey has tried to prevent this. Talking to you, does no good. Fortunately, you are the only survivor that I have dealt with who has no common sense. Marti, Shelby, (shall I go on) are the greatest people in the world. I support them 100%. I wish I could add you, but, you are too bitter and mis informed.
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With the Carey emails...
Um, Ginger... whatever Carey tells them (WWASPS)just gives them that much ammo to back themselves up with when time comes in court. Either that or putting together a hefty countersuit in some situations.
Either way, it sounds like a bunch of baloney threats to me. Similar to how my parents threatened that there were monsters under the bed, or if I kept mouthing off I'd get sent to boot camp...oh wait, that one really happened.
I guess the little boy who cried wolf quit bitchin... and everyone is just imagining this wolf because they heard about it.
Ain't no lawsuit comin', not now, not never.
Unfortunate... but that's the truth I think. A whole bunch of hogwash.
Whatever happened to that fraud Ryan Fraidenburgh? Hopefully you can pick his Coldwater up where you get those free CD's for AOL.. like sometimes they have them at Burger King, or tucked inside the junk mail... His lackadaisical story didn't go anywhere either.
As for the covert "unknown source," who received their information from another "unknown source," does ANYBODY know ANYTHING these days? Come on, it's the National Enquirer, not the bible!
Best advice --- do your own thing, the courts ain't coming to rescue us anytime soon.
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Sorry about your experience. This ain't hogwash. When your parents said they would send you, they did. I am also sorry about that. And you can believe, this law suit will come about soon.
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I'll be celebrating! About a week later after I'm done spreading the word everywhere appropriate and then caught up on a little sleep, I'll surely drink to that!
Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception."
Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger, 1916, Ch.9
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" I support them 100%. I wish I could add you, but, you are too bitter and mis informed"
More of this same "higher purpose" shit. If I don't believe you and trust you implicitly, I must have it in for the kids? Get over yourself!Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach him to use the Net and he won't bother you for weeks.
--Anonymous
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Well okay, Anon, if YOU say there's a lawsuit, then there MUST be a lawsuit.
I'll be waiting for it... just as I longingly await Tupac's resurrection,a woman president, Jesus's return, and the rebirth of acid wash jeans.
Ya got me all excited now! Shucks!
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What's the matter Ginger? You didn't get those answer's when you called Huron's office and asked for information so you have to solicit it on here? Oh yes, we were informed that you had called and wanted the scoop....Do you think for one minute that Huron is going to give you or anyone any information about the class action if your not involved. :wstupid:
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On 2003-11-16 19:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ginger, I can't speak for everyone, but, I do not "fuck" with anyone's mind. If I say it is going to happen, it is, take it to the bank. Defend her all you want, I would love to tell you the reasons, but, you are too locked up in defense of Carey and down on everyone else. I care about Huron's law suit, I just don't care if anyone makes money off of this. I only care that justice is done and Carey has tried to prevent this. Talking to you, does no good. Fortunately, you are the only survivor that I have dealt with who has no common sense. Marti, Shelby, (shall I go on) are the greatest people in the world. I support them 100%. I wish I could add you, but, you are too bitter and mis informed."
Good God, Anon. What happened to your critical thinking skills? Not everyone shares your point of view but that does not make them "bitter and misinformed".
:flame:
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On 2003-11-16 20:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What's the matter Ginger? You didn't get those answer's when you called Huron's office and asked for information so you have to solicit it on here? Oh yes, we were informed that you had called and wanted the scoop....Do you think for one minute that Huron is going to give you or anyone any information about the class action if your not involved. :wstupid: "
What I asked was whether or not you people cared about that suit. What I got back is that yeah, some do, but really, some of you could give a crap.
And I want to clarify something here.
Defend her all you want, I would love to tell you the reasons, but, you are too locked up in defense of Carey and down on everyone else.
Pour over every last post and please show me where I have ever made a statement to the effect that I'm sure Carey didn't turn over this info just as you claim she did? I've never said that because I've never been convinced of it.
"It's the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it." --Aristotle
Are you able to wrap your lawschooled mind around a concept like that?
I just want to know what was in those emails and why you're so convinced that your accusation is true. But you never answer that question in a responsive way. You respond by slamming Carey some more. Just piles upon piles upon piles of the lowest, most obscene kinds of ad homenems. Not a shred of substantiation.
Asif your thinking that she's a drunk or a vindictive ex wife is somehow supposed to convince me of the validity of this other claim you're pressing against her?
Oh, and BTW, the seeds for the class action go all the way back to before you put your kid in a WWASP program. Please don't try and take credit for things you haven't done. It's just very undignified.
Web pages are like babies -- creation involves a level of enthusiasm that does not necessarily carry over into maintenance.
--Joe Chew
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
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On 2003-11-16 20:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What's the matter Ginger? You didn't get those answer's when you called Huron's office and asked for information so you have to solicit it on here? Oh yes, we were informed that you had called and wanted the scoop....Do you think for one minute that Huron is going to give you or anyone any information about the class action if your not involved. :wstupid: "
Who is "we"?
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I never had my child in a WWASP program. I am connected out of concern of all you survivors. Yes, Ginger, you included. You ask if maybe Carey had made a mistake and we should just forget it. Could you, if you were still locked up and her mistake cost you staying there? The info she gave WWASP made numerous people nervous about responding to parents in need of answers. Is this right? Maybe, I was ugly earlier to you, if so, I apoligize, I just ask you to understand what Carey's actions have done. Mistakes like this hurt kids.
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On 2003-11-16 20:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2003-11-16 20:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh yes, we were informed that you had called and wanted the scoop....
Who is "we"? "
Oh, I missed that in all the excitement. You were misinformed. I emailed once asking if the rumor were true that they were preparing such a suit and never heard back. In this season of paranoia, I can see why they might not respond to every inquery.
Thing is, I want it to be true and I want it to be headline busting news all over the place. If just one successful class action can be brought and if it includes the types of abuses that are a common thread through all these programs, the industry is done.
How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate, they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to.
George Orwell, 1984
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Ginger,
Come on! She turned over 7,000 e-mails. How in the hell can I give you information on 7,000 e-mails? How do I know she was the one who turned them over? Because the WWASP attorney's informed our attorney that it was Carey Bock. Whether you or anyone chooses to believe that is your choice. I have never made an accusation to the effect that Carey is vindictive. I know that for a fact. Why else would someone stay involved with a group of people dedicated to helping get kids out of abusive facilities and then take that information and turn it over to WWASP? Why? It's not because of PURE or Carey's hatred of Sue Scheff it's because she got pissed off because she was kicked out of the group because she posted confidential information and we as a group felt she could not be trusted. Bingo! We were right. :idea:
And for your information....yes the seeds of a class action was indeed in the planning along time ago and know one would touch the case....however, I have been actively involved with the goings on before Huron. I don't claim to take credit for anything individually. We do things as a team. What would you know about dignity? :???:
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Anon, so true. I wish everyone could see what Carey is like you do.
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It's not because of PURE or Carey's hatred of Sue Scheff it's because she got pissed off because she was kicked out of the group because she posted confidential information and we as a group felt she could not be trusted.
Here we go again. This is why I was booted.
I would like to share my boot letter. Also, what preceeded this letter was another accusation that I released information that did not belong to me which was absolutely false and I can prove it if necessary with other emails. See what they say I am guilty of "You have such powerful enthusiasm and the best of intentions but combined with a blind drive to "get WWASP" you are hurting fellow list members."
Here the one that led up to it that "condeeds" that I did not release information that did not belong to me and the second which is the actual boot and why.
Subj: Re: Fwd: [Trekkers] Woodbury
Date: 5/16/03 5:06:44 PM Central Daylight Time
From: Careycbock@aol.com (http://mailto:Careycbock@aol.com)
Sent from the Internet (Details)
At 05:20 PM 5/16/2003 -0400, bkdelong@pobox.com (http://mailto:bkdelong@pobox.com)
Subj: Removal from list
Date: 5/16/03 6:59:18 PM Central Daylight Time
From: careycbock@aol.com (http://mailto:careycbock@aol.com)
Sent from the Internet (Details)
Carey -
I have received an email from Marie XXXXXXX stating that she did not understand who Lon Woodbury is as her English is limited and she, as well as Chris, were shocked that the images were sent to him once they found out who he was.
Because of that, and several listmembers emailing me off-list combined with the continued lack of control over your emotions, I am removing you from the list.
I truly hope you take some time to mellow out a bit and start thinking about consequences of your actions. You have such powerful enthusiasm and
the best of intentions but combined with a blind drive to "get WWASP" you are hurting fellow list members.
Thanks.
--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong@pobox.com
That is them. And so you will know I do have the emails requesting that I question Lon about the pictures. That is what I did and that is all I did. However, I still believe they should be released to the public. So, I was booted for not agreeing with the "group."
I guess I am more concerned about children who are hurting than I am about hurting list members.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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On 2003-11-16 20:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I never had my child in a WWASP program. I am connected out of concern of all you survivors. Yes, Ginger, you included.
Oh please don't help me! I've had all the help I can stand. If you intend to help me some more, you'd better know that I'm fully prepared to defend myself!
You ask if maybe Carey had made a mistake and we should just forget it. Could you, if you were still locked up and her mistake cost you staying there?
The info she gave WWASP made numerous people nervous about responding to parents in need of answers. Is this right? Maybe, I was ugly earlier to you, if so, I apoligize, I just ask you to understand what Carey's actions have done. Mistakes like this hurt kids."
According to the updated complaint, they're talking about emails received in October. The bullshit attacks on Carey started long before that. Has it occured to you that maybe your harsh treatment of her had it's intended effect, got her pissed off and upset beyond reason?
And yes, I could forgive such a mistake. My own dad kept us kids in these programs over the course of 10 years. Even lied to a cop to try and have me arrested, because he believed that I needed the Program or I would become a junkie and die a horrible death. Then he figured out the scam, apologized to me (which was probably the hardest words that old sailer ever had to speak), and I forgave him. I also forgave my teachers, who's reporting to my mother on my obvious depression, led her to the conclusion that I needed a little brainwashing. I even forgive the cops who slapped the cuffs on me and took me to detention for their part in Straight's effort to force me back into the program. I even forgive you people who, not knowing what you were supporting, have marched in lock step with the drug nazis so that, now, my kids have to live in a world where just being a teenager is viewed as probable cause for some kind of crime.
How many parents do you think have come to this site looking for valid, truthful information about these programs and, instead, found these obscene, sophmoric attacks and concluded that we're all a bunch of basket cases, just like the WWASPies say we are? Do you understand that, all good intentions aside, sometimes your actions might be helping WWASP and hurting kids too?
I can forgive damned near anything, once you stop doing it to me. Life's just too short to play it any other way.Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.
--Anonymous
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
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Anon, what will happen once a class action is filed? Will all the kids be sent home or simply re-referred into some other "safe and healthy" (sic)locked school or program by one of these independent referral agencies? That's what concerns me and should be of concern to everyone who purports to care about kids. This industry is rife with corruption and without any real oversight, the gravy train of abuse will continue.
So Ginger, please keep the light on. The need for a home for wayward forums will not diminish any time soon.
::heart::
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http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... =9&start=0 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=&topic=2196&forum=9&start=0)
That was me. I suggest that if you want to understand the quote, then read the thread above.
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On 2003-11-16 21:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That is them. And so you will know I do have the emails requesting that I question Lon about the pictures. That is what I did and that is all I did. However, I still believe they should be released to the public. So, I was booted for not agreeing with the "group."
I guess I am more concerned about children who are hurting than I am about hurting list members.
That's actually what I thought I remembered from an eon ago, or last spring, or whenever it was.
And I still don't understand the harm in verifying, beyond all doubt, that Lon Woodbury knows just exactly what he's promoting by sending him pictures of it or with releasing those pictures to the public so that the whole world will know.
If you're worried about them cleaning up their act and pulling a dancing frog act on you, well they've been doing that for decades. More secrets are not going to change that. Maybe more exposure will?
Where are the photos now? I'd be very happy to make room for them on my server. It wouldn't be anything WWASP doesn't already know about. It would only be things the public doesn't know about. Where's the harm?
Emotions rule the world; Is it any wonder that it's so mucked up?!
Bill Warbis
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Ginger,
The e-mails were turned over in July not October. The anon before was obviously trying to make a point and what did you do? You bashed them. Does that make you feel good about yourself? ::boohoo::
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I don't have them. I have never seen them. I have only heard about them. If I had pictures of kids being abused I would have turned them over to police and I would have made a copy and turned them over to the media. I surely would not be sitting on them for some law suit. That was my argument back then. I have to wonder if they really exist. If they do, and someone has been holding on to them, then that someone should be held accountable for any child who has suffered abuse since.
The e-mails were turned over in July
When were they taken? In other words, how long did the owner of those pictures sit on them before deciding to use them to help kids
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No Carey, you dumb BITCH! That was NOT why you were booted! Your just a slimey snake who can't keep your frigging mouth shut aren't you? I can't wait till your time comes. It can't come soon enough. You go ahead and post those little e-mails you want everyone to believe was the reason you were booted. Those of us who count know what the real reason's were. You have caused so much pain to families who have already indured the likes of WWASP and you will pay $$$ dearly for that.
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On 2003-11-16 21:07:00, Carey wrote:
"http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=&topic=2196&forum=9&start=0
That was me. I suggest that if you want to understand the quote, then read the thread above."
Okay, I followed the link, started reading the thread and came across this post. :cry:
This is what I know
Posted: 2003-05-20 08:48:00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PURE refers to Sorenson's Ranch School and Academy at Cedar Mountain.
Once the kid gets there she is cut a check for $1,000.00 When I talked to her about my son, she mentioned both of these schools. Both were VERY wrong for him. That led me to believe she doesn't care about our family or my son. Just the money.
I actually visited Sorenson's Ranch School. What a hole! Filthy living conditions for the students, the kitchen was also very dirty. From what I could see minimum supervision-Kids everywhere and NO staff. They only had 4 therapists for 120 kids.
I have NO idea how Sue decides which programs to send kids too. If that Sorenson's place is any indication, she doesn't have a clue.
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You go ahead and post those little e-mails you want everyone to believe was the reason you were booted
Sounds pretty clear to me. You can live in denial all you want, but what I was booted for was exactly what was said.
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On 2003-11-16 21:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ginger,
The e-mails were turned over in July not October. The anon before was obviously trying to make a point and what did you do? You bashed them. Does that make you feel good about yourself? ::boohoo:: "
What must the world be thinking when they read posts like this? I mean, can't any of you people make your case without calling people vile, disgusting names or telling them to go f*** themselves? Please, if you care about kids, clean up your act.
:flame:
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On 2003-11-16 21:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ginger,
The e-mails were turned over in July not October. The anon before was obviously trying to make a point and what did you do? You bashed them. Does that make you feel good about yourself? ::boohoo:: "
Well that's very odd because the updated complaint mentions mails received in October and then adds Jeff as a defendant.
I'm not bashing anybody. Just asking questions in an effort to sort fact from opinion here. If you find that sort of discussion offensive, well, sorry, there's nothing I can do for you. Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful.
--Friedrich Nietzsche
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I thought Jeff was a defendant in that case from the very beginning?
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Wrong. Jeff was not added in October. He was added several months before along with the deceased Donna H.
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Yeah, it was a long time back. I'd guess late last winter; but anyway, long before the current season.
I think there must be some typos in this document you quote, as what your saying it says is far wrong.
I can't get the thing to come up so as to be able to read it - but I'll take your word for what it says.
As I understand the situation, wwasp was wanting to amend this to enclude others besides those already named, as a result of Carey's co-operation. Far as I know its still being debated by the legal folks.
We'll just have to wait an see what becomes of all this.
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I think it's terribly sad that so many of you can't get along with people any better than to be constantly tearing each other down over ultimately very minor philosophical differences.
Your tearing at each other may well be the reason you haven't succeeded yet at getting these places shut down on a systemic basis, and may well keep you from getting that success in the future.
To get anything at all done in politics, and this issue is serious politics, you have to learn to deal with fellow-travelers--people who don't agree with you on everything, but agree with you on the fundamental point that these places are an abusive menace and need to be stopped.
If someone agrees with you on the *basics*---and the very basic is that these programs need to be *at minimum* better supervised by regulatory agencies and *at minimum* kids need additional protections before they can be placed and *at minimum* there needs to be greater public awareness so parents won't be as willing to use these places.
You can disagree on which of those three is most important, you can disagree on *how* that needs to happen, you can disagree on what the standards are. But anyone who agrees on those three things aimed towards stopping child abuse is a FELLOW TRAVELER.
You have Intellectual Disagreements and Policy Issues with fellow travelers, you DON'T shred them to bits and swear at them and behave like teenagers who never grew up.
Or you don't accomplish any changes in the system.
I've done activism before. Shredding fellow travelers like heretics to be burned at the stake is the way to get exactly nothing done.
Please, for the sake of the teens being abused in these places, grow up.
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When we have liars aboard, they need to be dealt with. Shove off, mate... :grin:
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" I think it's terribly sad that so many of you can't get along with people any better than to be constantly tearing each other down over ultimately very minor philosophical differences."
What are you referring to as minor philosophical differences? You have a group of people devoted to shutting down these facilities. They work 24/7 at it only to have "ONE" person turn over information to the "ENEMY" simply because she was booted out of the group for posting confidential information to satify her own superior ego. I would not call that minor would you? And the result of her actions has put several people and their families in the line of fire by WWASP. If you were being sued would you consider this minor?
"Your tearing at each other may well be the reason you haven't succeeded yet at getting these places shut down on a systemic basis, and may well keep you from getting that success in the future."
I believe the only person being under scrutiny at this point is Carey Bock. You may want to inform her that since her date with the devil, some things have been put on hold and she has hindered the attempts to get more kids out of the clutches of their abuser's. This is only a set back right now. We will deal with Ms.Bock and we will continue our fight for kids freedom and shutting down abusive facilities. We will not STOP until legislature gets involved. Take a look at the following, it will make you sick.
The Silent Death Of America's Children
>
>A continuing litany of death
>
>The death of a child is devastating by any measure. But when a child is
>killed under the guise of "help" by uncaring mental health professionals and an
>impassive system. It is unspeakably tragic.
>The following list is a damning indictment of what amounts to legalized child
>abuse dressed up as mental health treatment. CCHR
>
>***As a side note, I would like to take this description to an even lower
>level to include that
>this is legalized murder, and for those who did not die a physical death but
>an emotional one, until we, those who do see this, stand to oppose these
>atrocities, these children will never know decency, or trust. Each of these
>children are deserving of the honor of our remembering, and only in action will we
>ensure true honor and a restoration of hope. To the ones who are gone, the
>ones who remain, and those who will never have to experience this because our
>actions prevented future loss.
>As with all of my writing pertaining to this area of abuse, it is done so in
>loving honor and memory of Matthew Smith 14, who died in 2000,
>and Shaina Dunkle 10, who died in 2001.
>
>
>Jeffrey Bogrett, 9
>Died December 1, 1995 while being violently restrained at the New England
>Center for Autism
>
>Chris Campbel 13,
>Died November 2,1997 from intense, repeated restraints at the Iowa Juvenile
>Home.
>
>Edith Campos, 15
>Died February 2, 1998, while being restrained for not giving staff her family
>photo at the Desert Hills Center, Arizona.
>
>Paul Choy 16,
>Died February 4, 1992 from suffocation while being restrained at Rite of
>Passage in Nevada.
>
>Casey Collier, 17
>Died December 21, 1993 of asphyxiation after being forcibly restrained at the
>Cleo Wallace Center in Colorado.
>
>Sabrina E. Day, 15
>Died February 10.2000 after being restrained at the North Carolina Group Home
>
>Sakena Dorsey, 18
>Died June 10.1997 from suffocation during a face down restraint, with a staff
>member laying across her back at Foundations Behavioral Health in
>Pennsylvania. She had a medical history of asthma and swollen tonsils that hindered her
>breathing.
>
>Mark Draheim, 14
>Died December 1998 of asphyxiation while being forcibly restrained by three
>staff members at Kids Peace in Pennsylvania
>
>Kara Fuller-Otter, 12
>Died June 7, 2001, killing herself while suffering withdrawal from an
>antidepressant.
>
>Anthony Green, 15
>Died May 12, 1991 while being restrained face down on the floor for 15
>minutes at the Brookhaven Youth Ranch in Texas.
>
>Jamar Griffiths, 15
>Died October 18, 1994 of heart and lung failure while being restrained at the
>Allen Residential Center in New York.
>
>Diane Harris, 17
>Died April 11, 1990 after being violently restrained at the Sequin Community
>Living Center in Texas.
>
>Tony Haynes,14
>Died July 1.2001 after being restrained at America's Buffalo Soldiers in
>Arizona.
>
>Charlotte Holliman 14
>Died July 31, 1992 from hanging herself while on an antidepressant at Truckee
>Meadows Hospital, Nevada
>
>Demetrius Jeffries, 17
>Died August 26, 1997 from strangulation while in a restraint hold at the
>Crockett State School in Texas.
>
>Jimmy Kanda, 6
>Died September 20.1997 from strangulation while in a restraint hold at Crow's
>Next Family Care Home in California.
>
>William "Eddie" Lee, 15
>Died September 18, 2000, after being restrained at Obsidian Trails Wilderness
>Camp in Oregon.
>
>John McCloskey, 18
>Died February 24, 1996, from a ruptured liver and a torn color and small
>intestine after being sodomized with a broom-like handle while at Western State
>Hospital in Virginia.
>
>Shinaul McGraw,12
>Died June 5, 1994 of extremely high body temperature after being wrapped in a
>bed sheet with gauze over her mouth and being restrained to a bed at New
>Directions, Second Chance in Washington.
>
>Caitlin McIntosh, 12
>Died January 5, 2000, in Texas from hanging herself after being on a cocktail
>of four psychiatric drugs.
>
>Kristal Mayon-Ceniceros, 16
>Died February 5, 1999, of respiratory arrest after being restrained face down
>on the floor by four staff members at New Alternatives in Chula Vista,
>California.
>
>Thomas Mapes, 17
>Died July 8.1994 of asphyxiation after being handcuffed and pushed face down
>on the floor at the Youth Center at Topeka in Kansas.
>
>Amanda Mead,18
>Died 1991 from two undiagnosed brain tumors. A California school counselor
>and psychiatrist had wrongly labeled her as manic-depressive.
>
>Travis Neal, 13
>Died November 24, 1997 , in Michigan, collapsing from a heart attack after
>taking a psychiatric stimulant for years.
>
>Candace Newmaker, 10
>Died April 2000 after being wrapped in a sheet and pushed by adults for 70
>minutes in a Colorado therapy session.
>
>Cameron Pettus, 12
>Died August 2, 1993, in Austin, Texas, from toxic levels of an
>antidepressant.
>
>
>Dustin E. Phelps, 14
>Died March 1, 1998, after being strapped in a blanket and mattress at a
>Lancaster foster home in Ohio.
>
>Bobby Jo Randolph, 17
>Died September 26.1996 from asphyxia due to compression of the neck after
>being restrained by two aides at the Progressive Youth Center in Texas.
>
>Kevin Neil Rider, 14
>Died June 3.2000 in Utah from shooting himself during antidepressant
>withdrawal.
>
>Eric Roberts, 16
>Died February 2, 1996, after being wrapped in a plastic and foam blanket with
>Velcro for one hour at Odyssey Harbor in Texas.
>
>Robert Rollins, 12
>Died April 21, 1997, from asphyxiation while being restrained face down with
>arms crossed over his chest after a dispute over his missing teddy bear at
>Deveraux School in Massachusetts.
>
>Joshua Sharpe, 17
>Died December 28, 1999, while being restrained at the Wisconsin Treatment
>Center.
>
>Macauley Showalter, 7
>Died September 30, 2000, in Hutchinson, Minnesota, of cardiac arrest while
>taking a psychiatric stimulant and three other psychiatric drugs.
>
>Earl Smith 9
>Died January 1, 1995, from asphyxiation due to chest compression while being
>restrained face down by a Children's Village staff member in Michigan.
>
>Mark Soares, 16
>Died April 29, 1998, of cardiac arrest from physical restrain when aides at
>Wayside Union Academy in Massachusetts thought he was "faking" unconsciousness.
>
>Randy Steele, 9
>Died February 6, 2000, of a heart attack while being restrained at Laurel
>Ridge Hospital in San Antonio. He had an enlarged heart and had been on several
>stimulant and several other psychiatric drugs.
>
>Jason Tallman, 12
>Died May 12, 1993 from suffocation while being restrained face down on a
>pillow at Kids Peace in Pennsylvania.
>
>Bobby Sue Thomas, 17
>Died August 16, 1996 from acute cardiac arrhythmia while being restrained
>face down at Northwood Children's Home in Minnesota.
>
>Timithy Thomas, 9
>Died March 11, 1999, while being restrained at the Grandfather Home for
>Children in North Carolina.
>
>Tanner Wilson, 11
>Died February 9, 2001, from a heart attack while being physically restrained
>at the Gerard of Iowa Facility.
>
>Michael Wiltsie, 12
>Died February 5, 2000, of asphyxiation while being restrained at Eckherd
>Youth Alternatives In Florida.
>
>Willy Wright, 14
>Died March 4, 2000, from suffocation while being restrained by staff at
>Southwest Mental Health Center in San Antonio, Texas.
>
>Jaimie Young, 13
>Died June 5, 1993, while on a hike at Ramsey Canyon Hospital & Treatment
>Center in Arizona. Autopsy found that death was caused by heat stroke with
>dehydration triggered by 10 times the lethal levels of an antidepressant in her
>system.
>
>Kelly Young, 17
>Died March 4, 1998 of asphyxiation while being restrained on the floor at
>Brisbane Child Treatment Center in New Jersey.
>
>Stephanie Hall, 11
>Died January 5, 1996, as a result of the use of psychiatric
>medications. While the coroner ruled her death to be of natural causes. It
>is anything but natural.
>
>Samuel Grossman, 13
>Died from an enlarged heart, a heart attack that was the consequence of
>long-term use of a psychiatric stimulant.
>
>Cecil Reed 16
>Died on April 7, 2000, suffering a massive heart attack while at the Bronx
>Children's Psychiatric Center in New York. With toxic levels of four psychiatric
>medications.
>
>Matthew Miller, 13
>His death is recorded as a suicide but is a direct result of the effects of
>an antidepressant.
>
>Raymond Perrone, 10
>His death recorded as a suicide, but is a result of withdrawal from a
>psychotropic drug.
>
>Daniel Ehrlich, 14
>Suicide from withdrawal of a stimulant drug.
>
>Tristan Sovern, 16
>Died of violent restraint the Charter Behavioral Health Systems hospital in
>North Carolina by two facility staff workers.
>
>Andrew McClain, 11
>Died of violent restraint while a patient at Elmcrest Behavior Network in
>Portland Connecticut by two staff members.
>
>Roshelle Clayborne,16
>Died of violent restraint at the Laurel Ridge Residential Treatment Center in
>SanAntonio Texas. Eight staff members participated in this death.
>
>
>In closing,
>and as a mother of four teenagers, ages 15, 17, 18, and 19,
>I would be arrested for any of these offenses.
>No one is entitled to commit these actions against children,
>and there is no title, program or guise for treatment, that is exempt or
>holds an entitlement of an excuse for immunity.
>We have a nation of parents whose parental rights were terminated, for even a
>very minimal coarse gesture. We have a systematic failure that is not held
>accountable to the children or the murder.
>When we remove children in an effort to modify parents behavior, or the
>childs,
>we as a society are then accountable.
>I do not believe death is the appropriate behavior modification we should be
>looking for.
>
>
-
Of course it makes me sick, or I wouldn't be here.
In the other issue where I'm active, we have people who have occasionally done really obnoxious things such that many of us feel about them the way many of you feel about Carey.
Fine. It's 100% okay for you to feel that way. I understand why you feel that way. I'm just saying that focusing on it and letting it divert your time and effort is counterproductive.
And I've heard ranting not just about Carey, but sometimes some of it spills over onto Ginger, and some of it spills over onto ISAC---and it's counterproductive.
I'm not saying take someone you don't trust to your bosom and tell them all your gameplans and personal details, I'm saying you guys would be better off just ignoring the hell out of her and just posting a link to a page that explains why you have a problem with her if the subject comes up with newbies.
She would be better off just posting a link to a page with her side of it when the subject comes up with newbies, because all of you are repeating yourselves.
BOTH sides are losing by spending so much time on this spat. The only ones winning from the ongoing vocalness of the spat are the TBS's.
I'm not saying kiss and make up. I'm saying go ahead and accept that the divorce is final and quit hashing it over and over again. Stick a fork in it, it's done.
On the stupid PURE thing, even if they completely, totally suck, if they're willing to change the laws for more meaningful government oversight, and more safeguards before kids are incarcerated, and put in place (for example) an ethical checklist for when your kid is just a normal obnoxious teen that doesn't need to be placed *anywhere*, then they're AT LEAST TEMPORARILY fellow travelers, too (don't shoot me!)----because those are more safeguards than the poor kids have NOW.
A kid addicted to prescription pain meds, heroin, or alcohol needs residential treatment. A kid who is actively threatening suicide needs residential treatment. A kid who is actively threatening violence as a result of a major mental illness needs residential treatment.
There will HAVE to be some small number of TBS's to deal with those cases. They can at least be GOOD TBS's with COMPETENT pshrinks who will keep the kid caught up on his schoolwork and send him right back home once he's gone through detox or is stable on medication (whichever applies).
And in some cases, if the kid just doesn't get along with his/her parents, there will be a need for academic boarding schools just because the KID would rather be there than with his/her asshole parents. They should at least be GOOD academic boarding schools that don't try to therapize a kid just because he/she doesn't like his/her asshole parents. (Kid may be an asshole, too, but may get along fine in an academic boarding school away from Mom and Dad).
So IF Pure or whoever are willing to submit to meaningful changes to clean up their act (and I have my doubts, but it's at least theoretically POSSIBLE), then fine. Put the changes they'll willingly submit to in place first and then hash out the details of fixing whatever problems are left.
Now, the rest of you may have very good reason to believe Pure is not sincere about cleaning up their act. I haven't been around long enough to know, yet. I'm leaning against believing they're sincere because of their reaction when Ginger posted a hypothetical typical annoying teen and they looked like they were quite willing to find someplace to incarcerate a kid who didn't need it.
But, hypothetically, say ONE company was willing to submit to full regulation, a court hearing for the teen before commitment (with right to separate representation for the teen--separate from his parents), specific, limited, and appropriate criteria for commitment---well, great. Then that ONE company should be the ONE company that would survive the shakeout in a much reduced industry that ONLY handled the few cases where inpatient commitment is necessary and appropriate.
Anyway, that's what I think. Gotta go.
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Finally, someone with some intelligence! We are not letting it divert our attention. Quite the contrary. We just like messing with her and letting her know that we will not just roll over and let bygones be bygones and it's ok to turn over confidential information to the enemy. And it's just damned hard to sit back and read her posts about her honesty and "HER" truths. But your right, the worst thing we could do would be to ignore Carey. She can't stand not being the center of attention. Thanks for your insight :tup: . And by the way, I commend ISAC 100% for the hard work that they do. They are a group of awesome people.
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Suck it up!!! Maybe ISAC will let you take over their bulletin board to promote your agenda. God knows you people have run the clock out here.
:silly:
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I don't need to suck up dick head. I merely made a statement. Your probably too ignorant to know the kind of work they do. ::bangin::
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Yup, that is definitly a sucking sound I heard. Personally, I don't doubt ISAC is doing some good but so is Fornits, and in particular, Ginger. So trek on over to ISAC's board or any other board and help yourself to some bandwidth that better supports your agenda.
:wave:
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On 2003-11-17 10:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Suck it up!!! Maybe ISAC will let you take over their bulletin board to promote your agenda. God knows you people have run the clock out here.
:silly: "
ISAC has done more than the rest of you motherfuckers COMBINED. You suck it up, faggot!
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Hey Anon,
Is that info you posted "The Silent Death Of America's Children" on the web somewhere? Please provide a link.
Thanks
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Yes Deborah it is and I will try to find the link for you. I had it saved from a friend who sent it to me.
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Frod....The ISAC basher was just trying to pull our chain. Anyone with any common sense knows that ISAC can see through a suck up. I merely made a statement about the great work they do. It was probably you know who posting anon to tick us off.
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On 2003-11-17 13:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Frod....The ISAC basher was just trying to pull our chain. Anyone with any common sense knows that ISAC can see through a suck up. I merely made a statement about the great work they do. It was probably you know who posting anon to tick us off."
Nope, it wasn't you-know-who that made the post, you paranoid suck-up dipstick.
:rofl:
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Ginger and Fornits do indeed do good work by providing a free, uncensored, and safe place to exchange information.
ISAC does good work.
All fellow travelers are, for now, on the side of the Angels here.
Praise for ISAC and others doesn't detract from Ginger, and vice versa.
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On 2003-11-17 13:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Frod....The ISAC basher was just trying to pull our chain. Anyone with any common sense knows that ISAC can see through a suck up. I merely made a statement about the great work they do. It was probably you know who posting anon to tick us off."
Yes, that MUST be it, because ISAC isn't making any money and they're so dedicated and compassionate and all... But why does this seem so familiar? Oh! I remember! It's the same logic as assuming that any kid who would complain about the Program must, by rule, be lying and manipulating.
I'm sure glad I haven't got any common sense, or that would have gone right by me. :roll: I swear by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
* - ~ Galt's Creed ~ - *
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I'm not sure I get what you're trying to say here, but i have no idea who that was.
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To hell with all of that...you sound like a classic conspiracy nut here or something...If we want to assess who is the best organization saving kids from abusive rehabs, why don't we have each one of them post their results...not how much $$ they made, but how many kids they've saved from abusive rehabs this year...I think ISAC would be out in front in that contest.. :lol:
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Carey and Sue Flowers have probably done more than anyone to shut down Dundee.
And how many kids might have been helped in various ways had someone not gone out of their way to discourage everyone from making last year's conference a huge success?
And I think that whoever got the London Guardian interested in the story probably saved thousands of European kids.
Who did that? Anyone know? Probably not. But who really cares? I'm not looking for an award.
I still worry a lot about the kids we assume have been saved by PURE. Do we know they're safe?
If I am of the opinion that it is inexpedient to assign to the government the task of operating railroads, hotels, or mines, I am not an "enemy of the state" any more than I can be called an enemy of sulfuric acid because I am of the opinion that, useful though it may be for many purposes, it is not suitable either for drinking, or for washing one's hands.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
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Allright you ISAC people, it's time to speak up if your reputation on Fornits' matters to you...(I've opened the can of worms, now someone else can sort 'em out..) :lol:
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-11-17 18:19 ]
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On 2003-11-16 18:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ginger, I did not say that at all. You are asking the wrong person about Huron, is what I said. Sue Scheff, I have heard communicates with them daily. I don't. That is all I was saying. Ask her. If I didn't care about the kids, could I be named in a law suit? Think about it."
Has anybody followed up on anon's suggestion?
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In a nutshell.....what did this Carey person do that has everyone so excited?? If you don't wnat to take up space here, e-mail me @aaron5116@yahoo.com
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So, what happened? Was Carey served or not?