Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Carey on November 14, 2003, 08:04:00 AM
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All of those who are associated with Trekkers and Pure (if anyone would like a list of those names let me know) have been sharing peoples private messages without their knowledge.
What they do is they hack their way onto the BBS and they copy the messages and then post them on their Trekkers list. These people whose messages are being posted are not aware of this fact. I wonder how they would feel if they knew that their messages were being posted without their knowledge by Trekkers/PUREsts.
Why is it alright you PUREst for you to cut and paste other peoples messages without their consent?
It is so amazing that PUREst are so ready to point fingers at people for doing what they do.
They place kids in risky programs, WWASP places kids in risky programs.
They limit access to their listserve (they don't want to allow others opinions, someone might be woke up), WWASP limits access to their BBS.
They share other peoples posts, I share their posts.
And so on and so on.....
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-11-14 05:10 ]
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ISAC isn't PURE...Two wrongs don't make a right.
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Folks, I've said this before and I'll say it again.
This is a tempest in a teapot in the middle of a class 5 hurricane going on outside.
Here's what it reminds me of. When Straight was getting busted back around `83, they cast Miller Newton as the bad apple and kicked him to the curb. And the beatings went on...
When SAFE was under fire in Orlando back in 2000, suddenly they noticed that Loretta had been living the high life and they accused her of embezzlement (which she probably had done) and the beatings went on.
Now, it seems, WWASP is under fire, Sue branched off and got a bunch of people convinced that they're the only bad guys and she and her followers are good and right and faultless. To keep anyone from looking too closely at the similarities, they're doing the same thing program people always do; find some minor fault, real or imagined (I honestly don't know which) and blow it out of all preportion so that, they can go on playing the nobel martyrs. Which of the Treckers have fallen for it and which have not, the world may never know.
For a time, ISAC ppl went to bat for PURE without reservation. They were so completely sold on the scam that they accused anybody who questioned the high holy sanctity of PURE of supporting WWASP.
I think what happened is that Carey and Sue got into a huge brawl, Carey used some past correspondence to support her side of the argument and now the PURE people have cast her as the maniacal, evil villian. She may well have been at some fault; might have committed a lack of discretion along the way. I don't know. But she's damned sure not bilking irationally frightened parents out of big chunks of money to have their kids kidnapped in the night.
I don't even know who all the PUREists are, except those listed on their website, or who the Treckers are, except those who've told me they are (and I'm not sayin'). But I honestly think they've fallen for the classic Uneasy Rider ruse.
"Well you may not know it
But this gal's a spy
She's an undercover agent for the FBI
She's been sent out here to infiltrate the KU Klux Klan."
A government resting on the minority is an aristocracy, not a Republic, and could not be safe with a numerical and physical force against it, without a standing army, an enslaved press and a disarmed populace.
James Madison, The Federalist No. 46
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Hey, apparently this PURE group agrees with you, judging by their website advocating reform of the very business they are in. WTF????? Who can you trust, they ask in their newsletter. Anybody have an answer to that question? ISAC? Uncle Sam? The Trekkers? My money is on Fornits. The home of the Survivors of these programs, themselves and a small but vocal group of truthseekers who are not easily bullshitted by the troops.
:wave:
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Ginger,
You are missing some very vital facts.
All trekkers and their families for the most part have been harmed by wwasp.
Carey used similar relentless non-flexible behaviors, attitudes as she exhibits on this forum in our group. It was NOT appreciated.
As a group she was voted OUT.
Her giving wwasp personal emails has initiated in wwasp filing suit against some trekkers.
Her behavior,personal vendetta eventually will impact innocent families. Whether that be finacially, emotionally or what.
You are mistaken in suggesting all folks involved with Pure promotes programs. As volunteers we share our personal experience if asked,under our First Amendment right.
I for one appreciated the kindness Pure provided in my time of major distress.
When I realized a particular staff from wwasp was an "alledged" pedophile.
Nothing YOU or Carey can say can distract from that fact.
For you to continue to make insinuations about Pure that have not been substantiated is wrong.
My facts HAVE been substantiated.
Trekers facts are substantiated.Trekkers will be vindicated.
Carey is INCONSEQUENTIAL in the big scheme of things. She is a back stabber for her own personal purpose.She does not deserve respect or your defense.
Right or wrong, the escorts who helped with my son ,according to my son, were kind,gentle,caring men. I appreciated them at the time for what they do.
Not all programs, escorts can be lumped into a whole. It's ignorant to suggest otherwise.Our reality is the "teen help industry" is alive and thriving. Oour job is to see that they provide ehtical, moral, humane ,kind , theraputic care for the kids in need.
Allowing a child who is so desperate that they may be cutting themselves,self destructing to continue without intervention is nelegent on a parent's part. The demand for help is real.
Efforts should be put into demanding quaility care from these "schools." The support available for parents is limited. To sit back and judge is easy .To really work hard at making a differnce is a tougher task.
I am so over the Carey thing. Lets move forward!
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Jeez, I am beginning to think the only good trekker is an ex-trekker.
:wave:
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Oh, so now Ginger is the stupid one? Get over yourself, Anon. In fact, take a hike, Trekkie.
:smokin:
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For a time, ISAC ppl went to bat for PURE without reservation. They were so completely sold on the scam that they accused anybody who questioned the high holy sanctity of PURE of supporting WWASP.
Couldn't PURE be seen at least as the "lesser of two evils?" If not PURE, then what would you propose be done to get these kids out of the clutches of their duped parents and WWASP?
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Anon,
How rude you are. You must be a wwaspie. I have experinceed them before.Rude and disrespectful.
I never said Ginger was stupid. Obviously Ginger is not stupid.
Some of her information is incorrect.
Take a hike. as along as the facts are straight. I am gone. I have work to do.......
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This has been said before, but it seems people have a short memory on this forum.
There are many parents that were on the trekkers listserve that have nothing to do with PURE. Please stop grouping these groups together. As for PUREists, there are few.
Carey, you hurt many of these people that are trying to save children, and change legislature by giving their personal information to WWASP because you have a problem with PURE and keep linking trekkers and PURE together.
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Just to clairiy a few of Carey's more desperate attempts to justify her actions:
No body ever hacked in to the BBS. There are people who continued to have access. It was legitimate access to the board. Its not anyone?s fault but wwasps' if they weren't always so careful to boot dissatisfied parents.
On occasion BBS posts were consider by trekkers. Not often, but on occasion. But there is a vital difference between this and what Carey does and has done: It was never posted Publicly! It was never with intent to do harm to Anybody! It was always with regard to how best to help in any given situation. WWASP might beg to differ, but the parents and kids involved wouldn't.
And to drive home the point, Trekkers had nothing to do with PURE. One member is associated, but that is all. The rest are people just like some here. Parents who woke up. People who feel WWASP is lying to and manipulating parents in crisis; and abussing and neglecting their students; and who think this an evil that needs to be interfered with.
Carey has delivered a crippling blow to the Trekkers, and in actuality, Trekkers are no more.
But we who were Trekkers are all still in the fight, and or resolve has only hardened.
Ginger, maybe I take you wrong, but you seem to be saying none of this matters, that its no big deal. I disagree. And I feel its important to help people understand what kind of person Carey is. There are many not closely associated with our grievance with her, who might remain under the impression she is solidly against the program's efforts; and they are wrong. If they don't find out the truth, they could provide her with yet more sensitive information that would go straight to wwasp. It does matter and people do need to understand what she has done.
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Trekkers: It doesn't matter. WWASPS is not the only game in town and your problems with Carey are of your own making. All this damage control b.s. is really boring.
:wave:
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I agree it's boring.
But it's of HER making, no
one else's. Word.
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Fuck you Carey.
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On 2003-11-14 10:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This has been said before, but it seems people have a short memory on this forum.
There are many parents that were on the trekkers listserve that have nothing to do with PURE. Please stop grouping these groups together. As for PUREists, there are few.
Carey, you hurt many of these people that are trying to save children, and change legislature by giving their personal information to WWASP because you have a problem with PURE and keep linking trekkers and PURE together."
Define PURE. What is it? A person, a group, a listserve, what?
Define Trekkers: What is it? A person, a group, a listserve, what?
Second, explain the connection between the two? Is someone from PURE a TREKKER, or is it the other way around, a TREKKER is a PURE?
Just as long as whatever ails these folks isn't contagious, I'm happy! Time to stop the flamin though. You all sound like a bunch of meanies.
:roll:
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The voice of reason doesn't work. They kicked her out if the club, she started posting here and they followed- Not okay to argue there but okay to continue the fued here, on someone else bandwidth, or whatever it's called. And okay to subject the rest of us to their personal battle, usually without the benefit of adequate information, making it impossible for the public to draw any conclusion.
The frustrating thing is that none of them can seem to realize, or care, that this is a public forum. The majority of posters here don't know all their history. So they carry on these back and forth arguements between themselves- I'm right, no you're a snitch bitch- as if everyone knows what the F is going on. It's totally unreasonable and could be something that will continue forever, as no one "on the other side" is going to acknowledge Carey as being "right", which is what she appears to need to hear.
When the fued gets ramped up I just stop reading the thread, because you can be assured it's going to go to the same place it goes everytime, nowhere.
I appreciate Carey for modeling for other parents how to deal with a program who has your kid illegally. I don't appreciate her MO.
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On 2003-11-14 10:00:00, Froderik13 wrote:
"For a time, ISAC ppl went to bat for PURE without reservation. They were so completely sold on the scam that they accused anybody who questioned the high holy sanctity of PURE of supporting WWASP.
Couldn't PURE be seen at least as the "lesser of two evils?"
No, I don't. And here's why. If you look over old threads about the transitions from The Seed to Straight in Straight in St. Pete or St. Pete to Cincinatti, or from Straight, Orlando to SAFE, Orlando or, likely, any similar transion, you'll find the same pattern. People lucky enough to get in on the ground floor pretty unanimously agree that their experience was just a lot less outrageous than those of us who got on the ride just before the transition.
Well I've seen several cycles, twice firsthand. When I was a little kid looking up to my brothers and sisters (and I did, they were gods to me!) The Seed really wasn't anywhere near as overtly captive as it was in later years. When we had newcomers, we used to watch Saturday Night Live and Monty Python's Flying Circus then fall asleep to the King Biscuit Flower Hour or Dr. Demento.
On those cherrished half days off on Sunday, I'd come home from church with one of those gourmet chocolate chip cookies from the church lady for everyone in the house that day. The church lady never believed my story, but she went along with it cause I was cute. I'd still give almost anything for that recipe, too!
We didn't even lock the doors. I remember the morning we woke up with a split newcomer. We all fanned out in the neighborhood while somebody called Staff. I think I was around 8 or 9 then, maybe 10. We found her sitting up in a tree in the little patch of landscaping surrounding the sign at the front entry to our development. She was reading a poetry book and very shocked to find out that she had broken a rule. She had gone voluntarily and didn't know she had any obligation till noon.
But things changed. Everything got more intense. The enemy at the gate mounted and the Seedlings circled their waggons and became more isolated, paranoid and jealous over their follower's minds.
Straight was tougher than The old Seed by the time I got there, but nowhere near as insane as it was by the time I left.
Either I was a very power and wicked child, or it wasn't my fault. It's just the way this game plays out.
If not PURE, then what would you propose be done to get these kids out of the clutches of their duped parents and WWASP?
"
- Rampant Talking Out In Group!!!
That's the only thing a cult can't stand. Why the hell do you think they care at all about Richard Bradbury selling Melvin Sembler's penis pump on ebay? Cause Richard's not just selling "A vote for Büsh is a vote for America's Fürher" bumper stickers or singing about Cheney at the Holliday in. He's pulling a media stunt to draw attention, not to Melvin's erectile disorders, but to serious alegations of horrible chile abuse.
And the only reason they're backing off is because they seem to have realized that Richard had more than enough backing to properly defend himself. The last place in the world the Semblers want to find themselves is under sworn deposition by a skilled attorney representing Richard's free speech defense.
They're vampires who suck souls and who can't stand the light of day.
For at least a year and a half, people have been contacting the Department of State about offshore programs. Apparently, those complaints have hit the round file, cause no one in the DOS seems to recall ever having received them. But suddenly, since the NYT and the London Guardian picked up on the story that the Rocky Mountain News had been covering for years, they're actually concerned and Congress is taking the time to demand that John Ashcroft put down Tommy Chong's bong and investigate WWASP.
Go on and google Tranquility Bay. What comes up? Used to be nothing but recruiting sites. Now it's mostly open forums and hobby web pages. There are vastly more of us then there are of them. Oh, and don't gloss over the sponsored ads, either. :wink:
And most of us are near 40 by now, some of us are grandparents already, most of us have kids of our own. We're the grown ups now.
They were too agressive and inflicted their "help" on so many of us (apparently without adequate testing) that there is not a snowball's chance in hell that this culture can possibly survive out in the more commonly accepted reality. So let's focus on dragging them out into it, not trying to win at this same old battle on the same old boggy field.
Why do you think they've been so quiet lately? When's the last time you read anything written by a WWASP defender?
I just started a thread over in New Info to swap forums. There are a LOT of them, too! The London Guardian article has garnered a whole lot more attention in Europe than even the NYT article did here. And survivors and defenders have dropped in on those conversations to lend insight. We have a chance to let Europe know what's up with the weird obsession with abstinence under banners like "Drug Free Europe" and "Global Drug Prevention Network" in time so most of them can see them coming.
At the same time, we have an oportunity, and I think, an obligation to explain and to demonstrate that the Program is radically unAmerican.
How many kids do you suppose have been saved just by the fact that the other side of the story comes up in a search? Some of the parents have stopped to say thanks already. The kids, apperently, never found out they had even been considering it.
How much does it mean, do you think, to a kid to get out, go off to college and find out that, the whole time they were there, all alone in the world, we have been pulling for them in any way we can think of? What do you think it means to them when they jump the fence and find us old farts who believe them instead of a cliff?
Now what do you think of beating hell out of a lady who actually hired some muscle to escort her to the gate and liberate her kids from the Program? Whatever anyone says about her, I have to give the lady some credit and the benefit of the doubt for doing that. Many's the day I wished my dad had done the same, don't you? I forgave him a lot of bad judgement when he finally did come to my rescue.
And, to the lady who's worried about your kid cutting themselves, people do that when they feel desperate. When they're frightened and there's one in the world who they can trust to even tell about it. The answer is not to force them to trust some stranger through stockholm syndrome. The answer is to earn their trust.
It takes a village idiot to believe that a family needs instruction from the government to raise a child.
-- Anonymous homeschooler
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
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On 2003-11-14 10:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
No body ever hacked in to the BBS. There are people who continued to have access. It was legitimate access to the board. Its not anyone?s fault but wwasps' if they weren't always so careful to boot dissatisfied parents.
I haven't read it, but I know how WWASP is and how jaberwocks are in general. I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts that if you read the terms of the user agreement by which ya'll accessed the site, you'll find that you've violated them somehow. So, technically, you probably did hack the forum. If so, your argument is about the same as saying "It's not my fault I stole it, they should have locked the door." If not, well all I can say is their lawyers certainly aren't setting a good example, work ethic wise, for anybody!
However, not being the consumate geek that I am, she probably would't know that definition any better than you do. (I'm sure neither of you meant "hack" in the sense that you guys wrote the code to build the forum). So I think it's just frustrated exageration.
On occasion BBS posts were consider by trekkers. Not often, but on occasion. But there is a vital difference between this and what Carey does and has done: It was never posted Publicly! It was never with intent to do harm to Anybody! It was always with regard to how best to help in any given situation. WWASP might beg to differ, but the parents and kids involved wouldn't.
Then get a good first amendment lawyer who's willing to fight for your freedom of speech and the prospect of a countersuit for malicious prosecution.
But I suspect you'll have as hard a time proving that bit about no ill intent as WWASP does. See, they have good intentions too. Ask any judge who court orders kids there or any little school district (or the 2nd largest in the country!) who invites them to go a recruiting. They all have good intentions. Even Hitler thought he was saving his homeland.
You think it's a coincidence that megalomaniacs seem to be drawn to this industry like pedophiles to the priesthood? Here's a hint. It's not really about the kids. Kid's can't sign checks. They're just the scapegoats and hobgoblins. It's all about the parents.
And to drive home the point, Trekkers had nothing to do with PURE. One member is associated, but that is all. The rest are people just like some here. Parents who woke up. People who feel WWASP is lying to and manipulating parents in crisis; and abussing and neglecting their students; and who think this an evil that needs to be interfered with.
Like a battered woman bouncing from wife beater to wife beater. Stop it, already!
Carey has delivered a crippling blow to the Trekkers, and in actuality, Trekkers are no more.
You mean they don't exist anymore? Or they just don't subscribe to the Treckers' list-server anymore? Again, if anyone's actually been sued, and not just threatened, tell someone. You don't have to fold. There are a LOT of people who'd like to see these people under sworn deposition answering question from the defense atty about exactly why ya'll feel the need to raise a hew and cry (look it up, it's common law and, therefore, extremely potent magic!)
But we who were Trekkers are all still in the fight, and or resolve has only hardened.
Ginger, maybe I take you wrong, but you seem to be saying none of this matters, that its no big deal. I disagree. And I feel its important to help people understand what kind of person Carey is. There are many not closely associated with our grievance with her, who might remain under the impression she is solidly against the program's efforts; and they are wrong. If they don't find out the truth, they could provide her with yet more sensitive information that would go straight to wwasp. It does matter and people do need to understand what she has done.
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Ok, you're insinuation that there's a lot I don't know. Something that will explain it all.
But I haven't seen anything to support the idea that Carey supports WWASP. In fact, she's done a some things now and again that would really piss me off if I worked for WWASP and had paid her to help.
Pitting one bad guy against another? Ok, I've seen enough to believe that. And I don't think that's usually a good idea. It's mutual destruction by scorched earth and I prefer the more organic approach of creating condition where beneficials thrive out over harmfuls. Hence the favorite quote at the head of the page that I made static to pinch a few pennies on bandwidth fees.
Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundation, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
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Carey sold out to WWASP. We're trying to determine exactly why she did this. What do
I mean she "sold out?" Why would someone take posts and turn them over to Satan, I mean WASP. This act alone is reason enough for me to say CUT HER OFF. End the misery before she does something else. Plus the fact that she won't come clean about it. Who cares if she strongarmed her kids out. Granted this act in itself is admirable, but...LOOK at what she's done since...
Next topic: the PURE/ISAC thing and my "lesser of 2 evils" statement...ISAC is doing a hell of a lot more than any other known organization to help abused kids RIGHT NOW. So they are admired by PURE, whose methods may not be all that savory. But they (PURE) are getting kids out of abusive situations into better ones. So, they escort people. ISAC has let them know that they aren't cool with that, but I guess it's better than nothing at all...
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-11-14 20:44 ]
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Forcing kids into a locked $pecialty $chool vis a vis the services of moonlighting cops, probation officers, and bounty hunters is a chicken-shit thing to do, F-13. Stop making excuses for people who support the business of exploiting children under the guise of helping to save lives. That is pure poppycock and there is a place in HELL reserved for all those who think otherwise.
:flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame:
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Ok anon...whoever you are...so I guess we should let them ROT in solitary at WWASP then? Shit man, life's too short for this shit.. :skull: You're probably from ______ ___ right?
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-11-14 20:22 ]
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Oh yea, and who besides you F-13 is trying to figure out why Carey "sold out"? Seems to me you are the one doing the interrogating -- much to the chagrin of someone like myself who agrees with Ginger that this is all a smokescreen and a collosal waste of time.
:wink:
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No smokescreen, but I'll have to admit, probably a waste of time. She (Carey) ought to come clean, and I'm not the only one whose said it, asshole. Go back and look and you'll see...But you have helped me to realize that I'm most likely banging my damn head against a wall, so for that I thank you...
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-11-14 20:36 ]
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On 2003-11-14 19:42:00, Froderik13 wrote:
Next topic: the PURE/ISAC thing and my "lesser of 2 evils" statement...ISAC is doing a hell of a lot more than any other known organization to help abused kids RIGHT NOW. So they are admired by PURE, whose methods may not be all that savory. But they (PURE) are getting kids out of abusive situations into better ones. So, they escort people. ISAC has let them know that they aren't cool with that, but I guess it's better than nothing at all...
How do you know they're landing up any better off in their new gulags than they were in WWASP? One of the "better" programs that Sue bragged about sending kids to was Skyline Journey. She announced the relationship between PURE and SJ just a couple of months before the staff at SJ killed Ian August.
That seems like some pretty compelling evidence on the side of PURE is to WWASP as SAFE is to Straight. Or Straight/Seed or Straight/KHK or... whatever. The geographical, typographical cure. Change the letterhead, maybe the location and pretend that makes it all better.
Have you seen any evidence nearly so compelling to support the idea that PURE is actually putting these kids in better places than they're taking them out of? I haven't. I've asked and asked and never gotten even a bullshit answer. They just ignore the question. It's like sending up a COC to pull yourself. They ignore the request and then start some shit over something completely unrelated.
...and in all indictments for libels the jury shall have the right to determine the law and the facts, under the direction of the court, as in other cases.
(Jury nullification. It's not just a good idea, it's the law!)
Declaration of Rights, PA Constitution
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On 2003-11-14 20:03:00, Froderik13 wrote:
"Ok anon...whoever you are...so I guess we should let them ROT in solitary at WWASP then? Shit man, life's too short for this shit.. :skull: You're probably from ______ ___ right?
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-11-14 20:22 ]"
No, I think we should pile on and write the state department. Push for criminal sanctions, as in the case of Charles Long III (Buffalo Soldiers) Anyone know if he's even been to trial yet?
I think we should pile onto the request from Rep Miller to Scary John and explain how these programs are using essentially the same psych abuse tactics as Straight did and that it's not just WWASP, it's most, if not all, of these private lock down "schools".
Look, we have a pretty damned good system for dealing with people who are victimizing others and making trouble. We bring charges against them through our courts and, if the jury or judge deems it necessary according to case law and all the evidence presented, then we lock them up for a determined time. Granted, juvenile hall was not a lot of fun for me. It was boring. But it beat hell out of having an angry mob of altruistic tyrants constantly trying to pry into my mind and feelings all the time.
We need to get the word out on what's going on here so that a parent who would do this to their kid can't brag at the office about how well their kid is doing in their expensive boarding school without someone in the office telling them what a total jack ass they are.
Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution, the time will come when medicine will organize an undercover dictatorship. To restrict the art of healing to one class of men, and deny equal privilege to others, will be to constitute the Bastille of medical science. All such laws are un-American and despotic, and have no place in a Republic. The Constitution of this Republic should make special privilege for medical freedom as well as religious freedom.
--Abridged quote-Benjamin Rush, M.D., a signer of the Declaration of Independence
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