Post by: MelissaR on November 14, 2003, 12:10:00 AM
Of course she slathered on that I am "dramatic" and "decietful", and the parents discredited my experience entirely.
I think they must have a new seminar called "Preparing our staff from Melissa Rein's attempts to expose the truth single-handedly"
I've been out over a year.. and I'm still spending hours a week trying to help and assist.
You haven't seen me around here in awhile... everything is so corrupt. Carey's still running her jaw, as far as I can see. Newcomers beware... By the way.. why do we allow her here? That's like me getting on the BBS and reporting the information to Huron.... am I allowed to do that? HELL NO!
I'm running out of ideas. ISAC is bogus, I've said that from day one. Richard Tisch smells fishy to me, and althouh his website is informative... it's not nearly as clear or concise as it should be to make a real impact. Propaganda is rampant. I haven't heard a peep from the PR company... But I know that they've done some serious encryption of WWASP information... I can't access even the most basic of webpages without passwords.
A little disheveled,
Melissa
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2003, 12:29:00 AM
:wave:
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2003, 12:46:00 AM
if it is, you've been snitched out by ole carey herself!
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2003, 09:54:00 AM
tisch smelly fishy
a bit paranoid, aren't you mellisa?
to the people at isac: thank you. you are helping.
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2003, 10:24:00 AM
Post by: Antigen on November 14, 2003, 11:56:00 AM
I think the biggest trouble here is that there are so many very sincere people all fighting for nobel and worthy causes, but at odds with eachother.
I know some of the ISAC ppl for decades and believe they're totally dedicated and sincere. I also think they got a little hoodwinked here lately. But that doesn't make them evil people.
I don't know Titsch at all, except by way of what he's said about himself. I actually like the guy. Won't swear to anybody that he's not up to something. But I haven't seen any sign of it myself.
Don't know you either, Melissa, except from forum postings. But I think you're a damned good kid trying to assist the injured in a train wreck that you barely got out of intact. My advice to you would be to take your time.
I know it seems like a dire emergency and something MUST be done NOW to save these families, foil the villians and all. But the fact is that this has been going on for over 30 years. Just tip the ball when it comes into your zone, pace yourself, don't let WWASP or anyone else take from you anything more than you want to give. If you don't know Titsch or ISAC well enough to trust them, don't trust them. Wait. Watch. Think. Make up your mind when you've got enough info and you're comfortable with your conclusions.
Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful.
--Friedrich Nietzsche
Post by: Antigen on November 14, 2003, 12:00:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-13 21:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"are you sure you didn't forward your document to carey?
Prime example, folks. No one's talking about Carey or PURE here, asshole! We're talking about something important. Seems you'd rather we only ever talk about this stupid brawl of yours instead. Why is that? Are you afraid if we forget all about your little feud we might stumble onto something you'd rather we didn't notice?
The hypothalamus is one of the most important parts of the brain, involved in many kinds of motivation, among other functions. The hypothalamus controls the "Four F's": 1. fighting; 2. fleeing; 3.feeding; and 4. mating.
-- Psychology professor in neuropsychology intro course
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2003, 01:06:00 PM
Quote
Prime example, folks. No one's talking about Carey or PURE here, asshole! We're talking about something important. Seems you'd rather we only ever talk about this stupid brawl of yours instead. Why is that?
But it seems like this is all about Carey, PURE, ISAC, and WWASP. I don't see anon as being OT.
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2003, 03:25:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on November 14, 2003, 06:09:00 PM
Carey is allowed here for all the same reasons anyone else is. Frankly, if I were going to ban anyone for bad conduct, some of the people who've been so obnoxious toward her would be the first to go.
But I'm not going to ban anyone. Who am I to tell you what you may or may not read or write? And why would I want to spend time and energy trying to untangle all these messy conflicts and then engage in a game of cat and mouse trying to keep people from saying what they want?
It's up to you, the reader, to decide what to make of anything you read here.
If there's a worse idea going than locking people up for drug use, it's probably locking them up in close proximity to some tyranical altruist who wants to 'help' them with a problem that probably doesn't exist
-- Ginger Warbis
having had about all the help I can stand!
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
Post by: RichTitsch on November 14, 2003, 08:16:00 PM
Why in the world would you start-up with me? What's fishy about what I have said or done? My goal is to present information coupled with my belief that the Tranquility Bay Program is dangerous, the person in charge has no credentials to run the place, and that the methodology used in the "treatment" of these kids is more akin to torture than treatment. I've spent money putting up the Board, driving to Treasure Beach, returning many calls, sending FEDEX, faxes and speaking to a wide variety of people. I have no children or relatives that have ever been in the program and I am not affiliated with WWASP, PURE, ISAC or anyone else. I'm just a guy who is saying (forgive me Frod 13 for borrowing your vernacular) that this is totally fucked-up, it has to stop and it needs to be done now.
Also, I was introduced to this situation simply by reading a law case; to wit, State v. VanBlarigan(which I do in the course of being a Legal Assistant) and then speaking to the very kind-hearted, now deceased Donna H. (http://www.intrepidnetreporter.com (http://www.intrepidnetreporter.com))who asked me to investigate and write an article for her extremely laudable webnewspaper.
As far as your criticism concerning my bulletin board, it's received nearly 130 hits a day and has only been open for 12 days. Evidently, there are those who do like it, find it informative and come back frequently.
If I were more like FROD (and a lot of times I wish I were) you would be getting the exact same tongue-lashing that he's been handing-out all over tonight on this board (it's a compliment FROD).
So, you had no problem characterizing me as suspicious, with no evidence. That's truly unbelievable. Please do some fact-checking before you post your next unverified, unfounded, stupid, ill-mannered comment about me or anyone else. My goal, once again, is to alert everyone I can about the existence of Tranquility Bay and, if possible, put a quick stop to the very questionable treatment method being used by the former gas-station attendant running the place.
Actually Melissa, you're more silly, than you are disheveled!
Richard Titsch III
[ This Message was edited by: ricktitsch on 2003-11-14 17:22 ]
[ This Message was edited by: ricktitsch on 2003-11-14 17:23 ]
[ This Message was edited by: ricktitsch on 2003-11-14 17:38 ]
Post by: Deborah on November 14, 2003, 08:49:00 PM
FYI, you may get further attacked for this comment:
and then speaking to the very kind-hearted, now deceased Donna H. http://www.intrepidnetreporter.com (http://www.intrepidnetreporter.com))who asked me to investigate and write an article for her extremely laudable webnewspaper.
I can't imagine you don't know, but in case you don't, the new address for Intrepid is http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com) (plural)
****************
As you may or may not know, Donna had a relationship with Sue of PURE. Sue rescued her website when WWASP jacked it after her death. For that, we all owe Sue thanks. The site is a treasure chest of information. But, you have just opened a can of worms and may be attacked as being a PUREist. Ignore the attacks, unless you have time to waste talking into a black hole.
Anyway, put on some armour and keep going. You're doing a great service for the youth that are in these programs and may save some kids the unpleasant experience in the future. I appreciate your efforts, and hope time does prove that you are who you say you are. I personally get a good feeling, but who knows, I've been duped before. We humans seem to have an inherent NEED to trust.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2003-11-14 17:51 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2003-11-14 17:54 ]
Post by: RichTitsch on November 14, 2003, 09:03:00 PM
Thanks for your post and for the warning about my comments regards Donna.
Just for the record - anyone out there - my rapport with Donna H. had nothing to do with Sue S. After Donna passed-away, Sue called me in response to an email I sent to Donna (regretably, I wasn't aware of Donna's death.)
Not that I am suggesting there's anything wrong with Sue (I don't know her well enough and she's been pleasant the few times we talked); however, we are not fused. I am very proud, however, to have known Donna, and that should not be held against me or anyone else.
Deb, again I appreciate your post and the warning.
Rich
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2003, 09:14:00 PM
Post by: RichTitsch on November 14, 2003, 09:22:00 PM
Someone has already called me on the phone and we spoke regards Melissa's comments (not Deb). Deb's right on me acquiring a "thick-skin"; however, I think people here can engage in serious discussion - we're doing it. You just gave me a great suggestion, and I'm following-up right away.
From my prospective, it should be easy to tell the white hats from the black, and the personal attack was more than unwarranted! I expect to be fighting the pro-wwaspers and some other loons, but not people pulling in the same direction as me.
Hope we talk again!
Rich
Post by: RichTitsch on November 14, 2003, 10:13:00 PM
I have access to PACER, which houses scanned documents involving Federal Court cases nationwide. On the advise of Anon I reviewed the Docket of WWASP v. PURE, PURE FOUNDATION, SUE SCHEFF, JEFF BERRYMAN, BARBARA STAMP AND DONNA HEADRICK. It's a brutal docket already with over 99 entries and no end in sight.
The court docket and documents give me information good to know while continuing in my efforts to stop the Tranquility Bay atrocities, vis-a-vis the players involved not associated with WWASP. Clearly, there are people fused here which I did not realize had an association.
Anon - very grateful for your advice. The information was invaluable and right at my fingertips, without me even knowing.
Rich
Post by: Anonymous on November 15, 2003, 04:40:00 PM
u said it urself u dont have ne kids and r not affiliated wit wwasp.... so shut ur fuckin hole cuz u dont have tha slightest clue bout wats goin on.
Post by: RichTitsch on November 15, 2003, 05:03:00 PM
Kiss my ass! That's my suggestion to you. Since you write like a two year old, I would think you would support the idea that these reformatories not be available as options to parents. Or are you for torture, mind control, kidnapping, loss of basic fundamental human rights?
..r we str8 cuz?
Where did this anon piece of human garbage come from?
Richard Titsch III
[ This Message was edited by: ricktitsch on 2003-11-15 14:20 ]
Post by: Anonymous on November 15, 2003, 05:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-15 14:03:00, ricktitsch wrote:
Where did this anon piece of human garbage come from?
I'll never teee-eeeelll.....
Any of you!
::ftard::
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2003, 06:22:00 PM
first of all i dunno wat tha hell u talkin about all i told u was to shut ur fuckin hole and stop actin like u no tha program. and u aint hott shit for bein rich tisch III who gives a fuck bout and all tha bullshit u blow out ur fat ass
Post by: RichTitsch on November 16, 2003, 06:28:00 PM
Ginger: Don't you think it's about time we reverse the IP here? If it matches mine, I'll go to AOL tomorrow with the abuse report.
Back to you, dope, if you think you can make me shut my mouth, then why don't you come by and shut it for me!
What an anonymous piece of shit? You won't be anonymous much longer.
[ This Message was edited by: ricktitsch on 2003-11-16 15:28 ]
Post by: Antigen on November 16, 2003, 06:46:00 PM
So no, barring formal legal action requiring me to give up logging info, I won't.
I would suggest that the Anon poster here is not helping his credibility a bit by falling back on rude insults and that you let it roll off and concentrate on people who want to engage in intelligent conversation.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed people can change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has.
-- Margaret Mead
Post by: MelissaR on November 16, 2003, 07:02:00 PM
Post by: RichTitsch on November 16, 2003, 07:13:00 PM
Interestingly, I had no problem here until you appeared out of nowhere and made your negative statement against me. It must be you posting both as yourself and anonymously. It doesn't matter much, because based on the abuse on my webpage and what was said here I am sending an abuse report to AOL.
You are obviously a very sick young girl. As someone who has been through a program, it is the likes of you I am trying to avoid having launched on society. As far as important people go, I heard a story (several) about you which suggest you continue to be nobody in life and making no contibution whatsoever to society. I also understand that you attacked the ISAC people on some $10 charges. Basically, to put it in terms you can understand - you're nuts! Your damaged goods and are representative of the very thing I'd like to see not happen to kids as a result of the program.
Go get some help Melissa, you need it. You must have a lot of issues, starting with being paranoid, some sort of obvious issues concerning men in general, and you're so disrespectful, you clearly have no self-esteem. You probably also suffer from Passive-Aggresive Personality Disorder and Anti Social Personality Disorder, which would account for the possibility of you being Anon and Melissa. Either that or Multiple Personality Disorder.
Try all that on for size little girl, and if you are the person who posted on my webpage, I'd find a new IP soon, cause if I remember correctly AOL does usually have a problem when they see such obvious violations of their Terms of Service.
You're human garbage!
Richard Titsch III
[ This Message was edited by: ricktitsch on 2003-11-16 16:15 ]
[ This Message was edited by: ricktitsch on 2003-11-16 16:16 ]
[ This Message was edited by: ricktitsch on 2003-11-16 16:17 ]
[ This Message was edited by: ricktitsch on 2003-11-16 16:36 ]
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2003, 07:23:00 PM
Don't let the bozos bother you. They aren't worth the time it takes to respond. Its quit pointless to ask Ginger to up any info as she is something of a anarchist (fondly said) and not at all likely to interfere with peoples needs to be assinine.
Messila, I'm a bit surprised with your attitude.
I would think you'd be grateful someone outside the 'family' was doing so much to help.
He may not have been inside; but he has read the accounts of those who have, and done them the honor of believing them. AND gone to some trouble and expense to bring the injustice to light.
Its not like you to be so rude to someone trying to help.
Post by: RichTitsch on November 16, 2003, 07:35:00 PM
To: AOL TOS GENERAL and domains@aol.net (http://mailto:domains@aol.net)
# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2003-11-15 19:15
# Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.
Bottom of Form 1
Post by: MelissaR on November 16, 2003, 07:42:00 PM
Sorry... but have a field day trying to prove that it was.
I'm not going to contest any statements you made Ricky... I don't change my opinion once...
Did you report some of your scating comments you made to that anon poster as well?
You don't intimidate me at all whatsoever.
I didn't appear out of nowhere... and all your legal jargon isn't going to make me budge.
I'm glad you've got your psych book out right next to you.
Get a life, and leave the life saving to the people that really care.
I'm glad you're in contact with ISAC.. I uncovered them... I'll uncover you as well.
Toodles.
By the way... Ginger...oh wise one... I told you before I don't like hanging around here... it keeps getting weirder and weirder... shoot me a line when it clears up. I'll be happily meddling away doing my part to FREE kids like me...
I'm not a little girl Richard, powder puff. You wanna roll, let's do it. I'm an adult, as are you... even though you're going to have to prove it to me. ROFL!
Your condescending attitude and snide remarks impress no one.
I'm glad you're so computer literate... I sure as hell wouldn't post as an anon... I like my beef on my own plate, thank you very much.
So prove it.
Post by: RichTitsch on November 16, 2003, 07:53:00 PM
Post by: K8lyN on November 16, 2003, 08:01:00 PM
Post by: MelissaR on November 16, 2003, 08:03:00 PM
I'd like to cordially invite you to kiss my ass, and save a piece of the pie for ISAC. Don't you eat my asshole all at once, pookie! There is plenty to go around! :wstupid:
Ciao!
Post by: K8lyN on November 16, 2003, 08:13:00 PM
Post by: RichTitsch on November 16, 2003, 08:19:00 PM
To Melissa, who I basically called mental, which was then confirmed by k8lyn, again good riddance. Not because I am out of words. I have plenty left for you - you're crazy. How do you like those words for starters!
K8lyn:
This has nothing to do with you. I know all to well what goes on (I don't know which program Melissa was in), remember I am strictly on the Tranquility Bay issue. I have carefully read the cases, the testimony available and I understand that there has been plenty of emotional trauma. That's why I am involved. Also, I was invited by Donna H. I've been through this explanation.
It was Melissa who drew the initial blood, saying I was "fishy", with no evidence at all to back that up.
Finally, I couldn't care less that you're annoyed over an argument that doesn't concern you and your remark that I'm gay - where did that come from? Are you thinking about gay sex, people being gay, deviant behavior.
You sound like another loser! You can add me to the list of people who hate you here too.
Richard Titsch III
[ This Message was edited by: ricktitsch on 2003-11-16 17:20 ]
Post by: Antigen on November 16, 2003, 08:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-16 16:13:00, ricktitsch wrote:
You must have a lot of issues, starting with being paranoid, some sort of obvious issues concerning men in general, and you're so disrespectful, you clearly have no self-esteem. You probably also suffer from Passive-Aggresive Personality Disorder and Anti Social Personality Disorder, which would account for the possibility of you being Anon and Melissa. Either that or Multiple Personality Disorder.
That or you could just be entirely wrong cause, as well intended as you may be, you really have stepped into something WAY deeper than you might have imagine. As a result, you really don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Is it your intention to just piss everyone off all the time? Potential allies in Treasure Beach, now Melissa?
All the girl said was that, in the context of the usual mad house that is any public forum involving program ppl and others, you smell fishy to her. Pretty mild compared to your response.
That last says a whole lot more about you than it does about Melissa. You like beating up on young women or something?
Speak gently! 't is a little thing Dropp'd in the heart's deep well; The good, the joy, that it may bring Eternity shall tell.
-- G. W. Langford: Speak gently.
Post by: K8lyN on November 16, 2003, 08:27:00 PM
Post by: RichTitsch on November 16, 2003, 08:27:00 PM
Rich
Post by: spots on November 16, 2003, 08:31:00 PM
It would seem your personality is not quite "up to" dealing with such a volatile matter. From the beginning, you seemed like a naive sort of waif. You are taking on a Giant Evil here, and you seem unable to cope even with the sometimes-profane anger of survivors and others. The history of these survivors, whether The Seed, Straight, Provo Canyon, or WWAPSPS/TB is one of unbelievable anguish. Letting them vent without rancor should be one of the strengths of a crusader. If you can only respond to a simple "Fuck You" (which is about as potent as flipping the bird to a tailgating driver on the freeway), you probably do not belong in this arena.
My suggestion is to either 1) lighten up and can the complaints to your ISP [which sounds a lot like you're running to mommy and telling her that they are saying bad things about you], or 2) stay on the sidelines and do what you can to help bring down this kind of facility.
It's only been...what?...a couple of weeks, and you've gone from a Crusader to a Whiner (with a vengence). One might think you were not cut out for this role.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2003, 08:37:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on November 16, 2003, 08:39:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-16 16:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
Messila, I'm a bit surprised with your attitude.
I would think you'd be grateful someone outside the 'family' was doing so much to help.
I'm not the least bit surprised. Here's why...
Quote
He may not have been inside; but he has read the accounts of those who have, and done them the honor of believing them. AND gone to some trouble and expense to bring the injustice to light.
Its not like you to be so rude to someone trying to help.
And then immediately threatens coercion with serious consequences over a really petty slight and based on some really flimsey evidence at that. And, as it turns out, unless Melissa is a whole lot more net savvy than I thought, he's dead wrong.
But wait! Where have I lived this nightmare before? Some adult with an impressive appeal to authority makes an accusaion and starts the mob a blathering for revenge and punishment and...
Anyone else find this sort of behavior awfully familiar?
Rich, could you possibly have not realized this?
Legalizing drugs would simultaneously reduce the amount of crime and raise the quality of law enforcement. Can you conceive of any other measure that would accomplish so much to promote law and order?
--Economist Milton Friedman
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2003, 08:49:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on November 16, 2003, 08:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-16 17:27:00, ricktitsch wrote:
"I regret that you feel that way Ginger. I don't like having my reputation put at issue, when there is no evidence of any wrongdoing. I have been cooperative, on top of things, and actually I became very responsive after Melissa's second comments directed toward me. Hey, but if you don't like me anymore, I'm glad to go away.
Rich"
"Until you've lost your reputation,you never realize what a burden it was or what freedom really is."--MARGARET MITCHELL
Rich, you don't have a reputation to lose with these folks. I'm with a few other posters on this one. Everyone around here might seem a little paranoid and a good many of us really are at times. But look at what we're dealing with. You think anyone who's been spit up and chewed out (or is still dodging teeth and digestive fluids as we type) is going to just.... trust you cause you say you're an alright guy?
How does a snap opinion from some stranger on the net effect your reputation with anyone who matters to you? Get over yourself, please.
Remember when you were a kid? Did you ever wonder what it would be like if everyone could read everyone else's minds all the time? Well the net is like that, to some extent. Careful what you wish for, eh?
No, I don't dislike you. Remember? I knew you were an asshole the first time I said hi to you over on your forum. Now join the club and pony up your pitch to the coffee kitty. This is going to be a long strange trip.
You're more than welcome to hang out if you're going our way. But I think you'd have a whole lot more fun at it if you'd quit threatening and accusing everyone you run into. Nobody likes that shit. Most of us have had enough of it to last five psychos a lifetime.
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much
liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
--Thomas Jefferson, 1791, in a letter to Archibald Stuart
Post by: MelissaR on November 16, 2003, 08:59:00 PM
I'm a little confused about your post. Are you trying to figure out who I am? I think I have made it pretty clear who I am, and I guess I kind of have to assume the risk in this situation to get any kind of respect. Yes, I am 18, still in school, and I spent 17.5 months in Spring Creek Lodge. I have done a lot of work since I've been home, mostly working with reporters and parents. I post here pretty often, it's a good source of information.
Richard, again, I drew no "initial blood," you have to remember I've been around a long time, and worked with WWASP people for ages. I can smell a rat easily. I just think that your venomous insults towards survivors are not indicative of commitment or caring about the cause. This isn't about Ginger not liking you, and therefore you should leave... you just need to consider what you are getting into, and tread very lightly, because there are many of us that are very sensitive and skeptical. It is not easy for us to form bonds with people not involved with programs, or having a past history of programs. I can meet someone who was involved with straights 15 years ago, and quickly have an intense bond with them. Just because someone visits Auschvitz does not make them a Jew, just as visiting Tranquility Bay does not make you a victim. We need someone like you around, but not with this approach. I would suggest that you identify yourself as someone who is interested in learning about these facilities, rather than a crusader. Your being a "crusader" is offensive to me. You can sit at your fancy computer, the TV blaring in the backround, sipping on a drink and having a snack thinking "Oh, those poor kids," while there are kids that are gnawing on an old goat bone wishing they were dead. I've been there. I've had to make the decision while looking at a bottle of bleach,wondering if drinking it would send me to the psych ward, and out of WWASP's care. Unfortunate, yes. Sick, yes. True, yes. You can throw whatever "diagnosis" you like at me. Truth is, I'm a victim of incarceration and you better believe it, I've got a real fucking thick skin. I'm looking at a future in marketing and advertising at Arizona State University, or perhaps writing. Regardless of where I go, or where my ambitions take me, I carry a scar from the time I spent under WWASP. Since I am such a righteous person, and I am well aware of my rights, and the rights of others, I have taken a personal interest in assisting others. If nothing else, spread information. I have seen nothing from you but opinions, arguments, and a half-assed webpage. I'm glad you know how to work a search engine, but that certainly does not make you a crusader.
Post by: Antigen on November 16, 2003, 09:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-16 16:42:00, MelissaR wrote:
By the way... Ginger...oh wise one... I told you before I don't like hanging around here... it keeps getting weirder and weirder... shoot me a line when it clears up. I'll be happily meddling away doing my part to FREE kids like me...
Yeah, signal to noise ratio gets pretty bad around here sometimes. Shoot me an email, though, just in case I don't have a current one for you. Don't be a stranger. I'll certainly drop you a line if anything comes up that I think you'd want to know. But I don't think things will ever be exactly what you'd call clear or calm around here.
When a well-packaged web of lies
has been sold gradually to the masses
over generations, the truth will seem
utterly preposterous and its speaker
a raving lunatic.
--Dresden James
Post by: Deborah on November 16, 2003, 09:22:00 PM
Just a thought, but did it ever occur to you that she might be baiting you? To see how you reacted? I'm not saying she was (I truly don't know), but your defensive response certainly raised some hairs with her and others.
You might have requested that she elaborate on why she sensed you as "fishy" rather than attack and defend. Not too late to edit your posts and make that request. Put the ball back in her court. I say that from a purely selfish place- I would like to hear her imaginings. Read the archives. You're not the first to be attacked.
You've been given some good advice by several people. You might want to do a little research on the effects of "program life" so you'll understand the suspicion and outrage that is often directed at anyone who even smells like the perpetrator.
If you don't chill and if history repeats itself, the next accusation (whether founded or not) will be that you are really a WWASPer pretending to be an advocate, and making an "ass" out of yourself to discredit those who are on the good road.
The truth. No one really knows who you are or if your agenda is what you say. To expect people to trust without reservation is unreasonable given the venue. You can't take that personally. Let time show that....or if the heat's too much, you'll have to "get out the kitchen". I hope that will not be the case. I'm assuming you're innocent until proven guilty- the anon poster who said no one wants you here was not speaking for everyone.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2003, 09:55:00 PM
And then immediately threatens coercion with serious consequences over a really petty slight and based on some really flimsey evidence at that. And, as it turns out, unless Melissa is a whole lot more net savvy than I thought, he's dead wrong.
Yes indeed; but it snuck in while I was typing my post.
I was taken by surprise when I saw that.
I'm sorry to see all this has gotten so hurtful.
I hope its over now, and we can all go lick our wounds and return with tails waggin.
In other words -
Could we start again, please?
Post by: Antigen on November 16, 2003, 09:59:00 PM
Ardent advocates of prohibition were obsessed by a zeal that bordered on fanaticism. They supported politicians who voted to outlaw liquor, no matter how much of it they privately consumed, and spurned politicians who voted against prohibition, no matter how sober they were personally.
Sen. Sam Ervin, Preserving The Constitution
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2003, 10:00:00 PM
Soooooooo.... I didn't know you were a psychic! Impressive! I'm glad you know what I'm going to say before I say it --- because I sure as hell haven't a clue!
***You might have requested that she elaborate on why she sensed you as "fishy" rather than attack and defend. Not too late to edit your posts and make that request. Put the ball back in her court. I say that from a purely selfish place- I would like to hear her imaginings. Read the archives. You're not the first to be attacked. ***
Umm... cowardly editing posts doesn't change damage already done. I was thinking about that earlier, how people edit their posts like 4 times... Edit what you wish, but if the person has already read it, as well as responded... ya can't really turn back the hands of time, now can you?
For your selfish appeal, Deborah... okay? My imaginings? Yes... I'm completely delusional. Aren't you the one who won't tell us what program your son attended? How elusive.
Busy night, paper to write.
Ciao.
Post by: MelissaR on November 16, 2003, 10:01:00 PM
Post by: Froderik on November 16, 2003, 10:24:00 PM
Richard, if you sincerely want to help the cause, you're welcome here as far as I'm concerned.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2003, 10:25:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 18, 2003, 12:28:00 AM
MelissaR, it is offensive to me how you talk about Richard "sitting at his fancy computer, the TV blaring in the background, sipping on a drink and having a snack thinking 'Oh, those poor kids'". I think you would say I do the same thing. What are we supposed to do? Fly to Jamaica and destroy the place single-handed? Many people simply cannot do much more than work part-time on information. Me, I do my part to tell people about the problem, but I simply can do very little to facilitate an actual shutdown of a facility or other real fixes of the problem.
Your reference to an "old goat bone" is odd. Are conditions at some facilities that bad? Or are you referring to the quintessential problem of Third World Hunger? If so, that's a) irrelevant and b) even harder for the average First World Everyjoe to do something about. Your reference to "fancy computer" also makes it seem like you see Richard's presumed relative wealth as part of the problem. If so, what is he supposed to do about it?
Post by: MelissaR on November 18, 2003, 01:11:00 AM
1. Obviously I'm not asking you to single-handedly whisk away the facilities. Get real. I was simply saying that I was offended by RICHARD, because he truly knows nothing of the subject, and he is unwilling to learn from those who have had first hand experience. Maybe you saw the last episode of "Rich Girls" on MTV, the one where they visit Nantucket, and become entralled with the fact that there are children in Ethiopia starving to death. I was enfuriated by these girls.. and what they were saying, their tone, demeanor and attitude about the situation in Africa. They truly had no idea what they were talking about, and offending people who have dedicated their lives to helping those in need. This is very similar to how I was offended by Richard. I have dedicated lots of time to this cause, and I can smell a phony from a mile away. At this point I have decided that the only people capable of genuinely fighting against harmful treatment centers are those that have been there. The survivors. They aren't looking for money, they aren't looking for revenge, they simply know in their heart that the way they were treated was wrong, and want to do something about it. Granted, there are exceptions... i.e. Ryan Fraidenburg. Actually, that is the only exception I can think of.
2. Yes, the conditions are that bad in some places. Talk to survivors. I found a tooth in my food on 2 occassions during my stay at Spring Creek Lodge, in Montana. It sounds outrageous, but it's 100% true.
3. Relative wealth, no. I was referring to his threats to locate everyone's IP who was baiting him. He was crying to his mommy, as far as I'm concerned. He was trying to push people around with irrelevant computer jargon, not to mention weird psychological jargon as well. I am not one to be intimditated by things I don't understand. I set out to understand them, rather than let ignorance be my weakness.
I hope that satisfies your need. By the way, try not to take things on such a literal level.
Post by: Anonymous on November 18, 2003, 02:20:00 PM
But while I do believe survivors will always be the largest force behind a campaign like this, I also think that people who have not been there can offer support in the cause. Imposition of one's help is not a good thing, of course, but neither is rejection of people who can be taught and become strong forces. Hunger in Ethiopia is not helped only by Ethiopians.
Post by: Antigen on November 18, 2003, 06:33:00 PM
No doubt in my mind at all that program vets need the help and support of non vets for a number of reasons.
First, let me tell you I was both shocked and thoroughly pissed off by Titsch's response to you, Melissa. I understand what he took exception to, but he just didn't handle it well.
I don't agree with your basing your trust in people on whether or not they were in a program. I think it's a mistake. I do get that it's easier to get to know someone w/ similar life experience. But just because someone's been through a program doesn't make them trustworthy and vica versa.
But that works against us, too. We're all biased one way or another. For every one of us, the story is complicated by family issues, trouble with the law or school and other complications. But coming from someone like Titsch (or Arnold Trebach or some other folks who haven't been there) that's not an issue.
Here's what Titsch has got that we haven't. He's a legal eagle without a horse in this race, aside from common concern for his fellow man. There's no confusion over whether he's just pissed at his parents or ex or a failure in life who can't get over blaming others for his mistakes. It's simply not an issue, he's reporting what he sees as an objective, outside observer. That's golden!
He's got a skill set that most of us lack. I joke around a lot about jaberwocks and such. But the truth is there are some good ones and there is an art to practicing law. Titsch is not a lawyer, but a legal assistant. That means he's up to his eyeballs in jaberwocky every day and surrounded by jaberwocks. He knows the language and culture and can translate our grievances into language they can understand. That's golden too!
And he has been working on this since around June. Just search on his name and you'll find nearly 30 forums where he posted his original essay. After that, he used his language skills and understanding of the legal system to get in touch with the right person inside the Embassey and to convey the importance of the situation in terms that seem to have gotten the lady's attention. I can't remember her name, but if you look through recent posts, he states it just before he gets all pissed off and vanishes.
But there's this primal flaw. If anybody is going to get all bent out of shape and take their ball and go home just because some 18yo stranger on the net says she doesn't trust them, well there's nothing I can do to help that. It's going to happen again and again and again. Anyone who can't take that kind of thing and let it roll off is just not going to be able to get anything done in our weird little social circle. We're a strident and truculant and highly skeptical bunch.
He that will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; and he who dares not, is a slave.
--William Drummond (1585-1640)
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
Post by: Froderik on November 18, 2003, 08:07:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 20, 2003, 09:31:00 PM
take ur abuse reports and shove em up ur fuckin ass. u jus a lonely old man who dont gotta life and tries to makes other peoples lives hell. u r a sick fuck. u r tha biggest phony ive ever seen. jus remember tha sane people let ur bullshit go in one ear and right out tha other. good luck wit ur shit talkin bout TB. ur a real pieca shit.
Post by: Froderik on November 20, 2003, 10:11:00 PM
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-11-20 19:15 ]
Post by: Anonymous on November 20, 2003, 11:11:00 PM
Post by: MelissaR on November 21, 2003, 05:30:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 21, 2003, 08:00:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 21, 2003, 08:07:00 PM
Post by: MelissaR on November 22, 2003, 10:41:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on November 22, 2003, 01:11:00 PM