Post by: Antigen on November 01, 2003, 03:58:00 PM
--Hermann Goering, Luftwaffe commander, sentenced to death at Nuremberg
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
-- John F. Kennedy (1917-63), U.S. Democratic politician, president. Speech, 13 March 1962, the White House.
Post by: Anonymous on November 03, 2003, 01:22:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 03, 2003, 02:26:00 PM
Post by: Nazi on November 09, 2003, 06:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-03 10:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Well Well Well, if it isnt Jef Gottlieb and gay Marty and ken, notice how gay Marty has his arm around his favorite lover?Marty loves Ken.
Fuckin gay mother fuckers!!!!!I wonder if Marty has some of his rubber dicks in his back pocket????
[ This Message was edited by: nazi on 2003-11-09 15:54 ]
Post by: Marty KruDick on November 10, 2003, 02:30:00 AM
I am insulted by this pic. That fucking Charlie had nothing on us. HE GOT CAUGHT!!!!
:roll: :roll: :roll:
Post by: Marty KruDick on November 10, 2003, 02:34:00 AM
I have single-handedly destroyed the lives, and minds of more then you will ever count.
What's my name?
:skull: Marty Krudick :skull:
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2003, 06:05:00 PM
Jeffery (gee I coulda been a great shoe salesman) Gottlieb ,instead I made a boat load of money abusing human beings ....and this fat old boy is actually grinning about it .
Kruglik is grinning because he once gave a baseball bat to two men with the instructions "if he even gives you the hint that he is going to run away .You are to beat him to death on the spot" ... Thats therapy right? no that is torture .pure and simple and words that still ring in my ears .
Kruglik did carry out a cowboy kickass on a kid ,16 years old and a one third his size by appealling to the mob mentality of the house . Yeah old boy kruglik I still cannot forget the bruises that I saw on Chris Badger's back after he got brutally slammed into every wall in each room of the house ,he was older than me and so much smaller ....and you have the audacity to grin (like a fukin crocadile) that you are .
And these abusive sadists have their arms around (in my opinion )the biggest baldfaced liar and ricci want a be ,known to man . zaretzky ,if you all knew the reason he told me why he was pulled back into the program (which in my mind was showed just how diabolical elan and ricci and his hench men are )for a lot longer than 2 freaking weeks ya baldfaced liar .
It would burn off both your ears and freeze you to the marrow in your bones . What ever you do you certaintly don't want to make a mistake like I did and get on a boat with this prevert . And baldfaced kenny if you need to have your memory refreshed (i don't cause the preverted lunacy is still fresh in my mind) just ask your buddy gottlieb ...
yeah jeffery that was me who called elan up and damanded to get my one on one with ricci. and they handed me off to you (cause ricci was recovering from surgery) ....Like that was true .
you see old boy zaretzky even jeffery (a true sadist ,in my opinion )agreed with me when I told him about that little incident on the boat, that it was sick and preverted . In fact kenny if you need to be refreshed just ask that (my opinion)sadist jeffery what i remembered .But DON"T YOU EVER ASK ME TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT IT AGAIN YA PFREAK.
Oh and jeffery there is nothing with wanting to be a shoe salesman .There is something dead wrong about treating adult s and children the way you and McCann and kruglik and ricci and zaretzky did which was abusively sadistic.With absolutely no training in any conseling or psychology what so ever .
In 1971 There was a professor Stanley Milgram who conducted a few experiments that dealt with students shocking other students (college)and also mock guards and mock prisioners .The results of these experiments were shocking and horrifying and these type of experiments were considered dangerous .
Jerry Davidson ,ricci's partner was a psychology teacher at harvard . I got in to elan in 74 .You would think that a harvard teacher would have known about the Milgram studies . I am sure he did. Yet he allowed the abusive and sadistic lunacy that elan proffered as therapy. (they made money abusing people )
As for the other fellow in this picture .Yeah I don't know him except that he was weird . charlie is a saint compared to the other folks in the picture . These men were pros when it turned weird ....and Manson is still in prison ,which in my opinion is where these men should all be for the rest of their natural lives
Boy it is such a slap in the gut to see pictures of these freaks .
And these freaks grin.
peace
Matthiam
Post by: Paul St. John on November 16, 2003, 06:29:00 PM
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"In 1971 There was a professor Stanley Milgram who conducted a few experiments that dealt with students shocking other students (college)and also mock guards and mock prisioners .The results of these experiments were shocking and horrifying and these type of experiments were considered dangerous .
I know of those experiments.
... very applicable. This is exactly what you have going on here. Someone had posted here, then when they tried suing they ran into a problem, as most of the acts were not carried outr by the school, but rather by students.
One would think that the reposts on those experiments could be offerred into such a case possibly. There is solid evidence in these experiments, and elsewhere as to the power of athority.
Also, it's interesting to me, the extent to which the athority=phenomenon, has not only the students, but also on the parents.
Paul St. John
Post by: SyN on November 16, 2003, 07:25:00 PM
SyN
Post by: Matt C. Hoffman on November 16, 2003, 10:20:00 PM
buzz and I were talking and granted ,the residents did the dirty work for these men .They were given direction and encouragemnet from these men .According to Buzz if these sadists (in my opinion) supervised the abuse and encouraged the abuse,then that in turn makes them responsible and culpable .
These men were adults .They came up with the ideas and themes for the gms and they were the ones who made the decisions . they are cupable and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law .
In my opinion for running a continuing crimnal enterprise (making money off of abusing adults as well as children )
It kinda gives new meaning to that old Steely Dan song ..I'm a Fool to Do your dirty work ...oh yeah .
No these freaks were responsible for the wellbeing of the residents ,and the fact that someone says that their hands aren't dirty because they had the other residents do their dirty work ,is simply hogwash. In my opinion they are freaks because of the sadistic nature of what they made other residents do to other residents .
and if you don't believe that there are incidences where they were actively involved in the abuse, then I have a pyramiad in the desert that I would like to sell you ...its really cool and has a real shiny light on top of it that from what I have been told you can see from the space shuttle
Just sheddin a little light
Matt
Post by: Antigen on November 16, 2003, 10:33:00 PM
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On 2003-11-16 19:20:00, Matt C. Hoffman wrote:
In my opinion they are freaks because of the sadistic nature of what they made other residents do to other residents.
This is highly significant. First, remember that to get on staff, they had to come up through the ranks themselves. They had to, not only understand the Program, but be it, really, even in the privacy of their own minds, believe it.
They may have some outsider staff now, I don't know. But it's absolutely essential to the structure of a TC to have a few old war veterans hanging around to project the program as self identity onto the newer captives.
It's also very important to get the captives to take as active a roll as possible in inflicting the Program onto the other inmates. It helps to better internalize the Program and it also props up the illusion that everyone in the world is with the Program and, if you doubt it, you're the only one, all alone.
From the bottom of any large organization looking up through the ranks, human greed and stupidity look a lot like a conspiracy.
--S. Gilbert
Post by: SyN on November 16, 2003, 10:45:00 PM
SyN
Post by: Antigen on November 16, 2003, 10:58:00 PM
I tried not to work for, you know, anyone who ate children with their bare hands. I won't pretend that I was ideologically consistent.
--Dick Morris; Political consultant for Bill Clinton, Trent Lott and Tom Ridge
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2003, 11:03:00 PM
Post by: Matt C. Hoffman on November 19, 2003, 02:32:00 PM
Staffs hands aren't clean (as they seem to think)they obviously supervised to make sure that the proper restraing methods were used .
As for the abusive psychological terror, that posed as therapy in my opinion that came from the directors expansive knowledge of psychological torture (that was proffered as therapy) learned over the past 28 years of having had direct hands on experience brutally abusing adults as well as kids .
In my opinion there is not a solvent stong enough to rid elan and its henchmen of the blood and carnage that they have on their hands from running (my opinion again)one of the sickest, sadisticly and brutally abusive place that was to care for adults (in the beginning)as well as children (in my day adults were mixed in with children)on the face of this earth.
the sad thing is that these henchmen ,terry mccann ,kruglik ,gottlieb ,zaretsky seem to think that they have gotten away with it .
Whats up with Sharon Terry trying to get slot machines at the race track ? Thats where elans money is in that racetrack (well thats my opinion)I hope she gets denied her precious slots ,thats just me wishing .
Post by: Antigen on November 19, 2003, 02:39:00 PM
It's so hard to prove in legal terms, as it should be. Can you even imagine the mess we'd all be in if anyone could just lay the blame for their own actions on anybody without proof?
That's why this little problem of ours is best solved in the court of public opinion. I think some lawsuits and criminal charges will probably grow out of the effort at some point. But they can't possibly go far enough against the right targets. People have just got to begin to understand the scam so they'll see it coming. And that can only happen completely enough through art and dialog.
Keep close to Nature's heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean.
-- John Muir
Post by: Anonymous on November 19, 2003, 03:55:00 PM
I understand what you are saying . And that story about kenny is not fiction. It came straight out of his mouth and as a result made me realize at such a young age that elan would do anything to protect itself as well as to how dark and diabolical it is .
It just doesn't wash with me that these directors are not culpable and the lawyers that defend it in my opinion should also be disbarred.
I do understand that the more people that can see it for what it is (my opinion)a waste of parents hard earned money for what is offered by that place ,and in the long run there will be death to it thru attrition.
In my heart though I truly want those freaks to pay ,either by going to prison and losing all monies to the point that they need to wear barrels cause they can't afford clothes .
you see in a court of public opinion they have had their chance to say that they are sorry and is there anything that they can do to help us . they should be begging for our forgivness for their abusive actions .
did they do this ? no because they are ,in my opinion ,gutless child abusing cowards .Who have the gall to grin .
And they have had plenty of time have come clean and admit their guilt. Well the time is up and elan and its henchmen are going to reap what they sowed all those years ago. (which is pain)
It is time for them to face the music . I also want to state again that i stand behind every post that I have ever written on anyboard about elan . As sick as some of those post have been it is the truth .
One other thing it is sad that davidson and ricci are dead .I wish they were alive to see and hear what we survivours think about them and their abusive thing called elan .
respectfully
Matt
Post by: Matt C. Hoffman on November 19, 2003, 04:00:00 PM
dang computers
matt
Post by: Anonymous on November 19, 2003, 04:12:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on November 19, 2003, 04:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-19 12:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ginger
I understand what you are saying . And that story about kenny is not fiction. It came straight out of his mouth and as a result made me realize at such a young age that elan would do anything to protect itself as well as to how dark and diabolical it is .
Oh, please don't get me wrong! I believe you. Not only because I've known you to be extremely consistent, thoughtful and reliable but because I've seen program ppl pull essentially the same shit w/ other people. Not quite so sick as talking someone into suicide by cop, mind you. That's beyond the pale even for the most sadistic among them. But the same scam all the same.
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It just doesn't wash with me that these directors are not culpable and the lawyers that defend it in my opinion should also be disbarred.
Agreed
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I do understand that the more people that can see it for what it is (my opinion)a waste of parents hard earned money for what is offered by that place ,and in the long run there will be death to it thru attrition.
In my heart though I truly want those freaks to pay ,either by going to prison and losing all monies to the point that they need to wear barrels cause they can't afford clothes .
I think those and other just deserts might be natural consequences of their own actions if we can just blow away the false legitimacy they hide behind. How many former Elan students have been able to shake it off and go on to successful careers in all kinds of professions? Is there a lawyer in the house? Indeed, there is. Let's put out the call. How about a film maker? A few journalists? Hell, even a stand up comic could do some good here. Ever hear Jello Biafra go off on the teen help industry?
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you see in a court of public opinion they have had their chance to say that they are sorry and is there anything that they can do to help us . they should be begging for our forgivness for their abusive actions .
did they do this ? no because they are ,in my opinion ,gutless child abusing cowards .Who have the gall to grin .
And they have had plenty of time have come clean and admit their guilt. Well the time is up and elan and its henchmen are going to reap what they sowed all those years ago. (which is pain)
It is time for them to face the music . I also want to state again that i stand behind every post that I have ever written on anyboard about elan . As sick as some of those post have been it is the truth .
One other thing it is sad that davidson and ricci are dead .I wish they were alive to see and hear what we survivours think about them and their abusive thing called elan .
respectfully
Matt
"
Mad love for you, Matt, and the utmost respect. I wasn't talking to you about the exageration. I don't think I've ever seen you join in the prank posting at all. I was talking to those who do.
And, btw, I get it. It's just fun giving back just a little bit of what they dish out and knowing they can't do a damned thing about it. But now that there's another chance to get some serious action going, I think it's time to put away the fun and games and get serious. Just my .02
for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.
--Alexander Hamilton
Post by: new guy on November 19, 2003, 04:30:00 PM
Post by: artman on November 19, 2003, 04:49:00 PM
Matts testimony I assume will be key for our cause as this continues to grow.Matt is from just before my time and has some pretty whacked out stories of which I bellieve are true based on what stories I have to tell and the things I had seen from my time.
I applaud your efforts since incarseration Matt,you have turned out to be a prett good guy I think
Art
Post by: Anonymous on November 19, 2003, 05:09:00 PM
Post by: artman on November 20, 2003, 09:19:00 AM
Anon posters have no balls.....
Post by: SyN on November 20, 2003, 12:35:00 PM
SyN
Post by: Anonymous on November 20, 2003, 01:09:00 PM
Post by: SyN on November 20, 2003, 08:58:00 PM
SyN
Post by: Antigen on November 21, 2003, 12:32:00 AM
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.
-- William James
Post by: SyN on November 21, 2003, 09:55:00 AM
Which leads to my oppinion of dan as being a researcher, as seems to be the new thing around here lately. I obviously have no problem shareing elan stories, but you have to give to get. And Dan doesnt want to share. So my oppinion of the man is very low.
If i was paranoid anti i would be an anon.
He hasnt hurt me i wouldnt word it like that. But as a person who never went to elan he should be more open about his agenda. not just state refer to my book, then ask all kinds of personal shit, or give out addresses to his duck reporters
I read the book his wife wrote is was a great perspective of joe ricci no doubt, but thats not the focus here is it. Maybe you can start a joe ricci forum for him.
He has been most helpfull by posting emails for certain key people that can look into elan so i know he wants to help, but he is still shady to me. Cant help it anti its my nature n its not going to change.
I actually started out well with him at jackies site but he kept evading my questions, which can only lead me in one direction.
You understand now Anti?
SyN
Post by: Anonymous on November 21, 2003, 10:02:00 AM
SyN
One other thing...
Paul said it already, but I don't want there to be any misunderstanding. Of course you should be skeptical! Naturally, you don't trust strangers. I don't even view that as damage from the Program experience. It's just good, sound thinking learned from hard experience. It's not sane or smart to trust ppl you don't know anything about.
But do contact them IF you have a story you want to tell. Don't give them any info you don't want to give. Just contact them and GET the information you need to make a determination.
The truth will out!
Post by: Antigen on November 21, 2003, 02:21:00 PM
I can understand why Dan doesn't want to answer a whole lot of personal questions. Does Dan Rather tell you everything about his personal life? That's just not what journalists do. They tell stories about other people, keeping themselves out of it. In so doing, they also expose themselves to a lot of legal liability. Especially with a story like this that's so high stakes for so many people that the mainstream won't touch it with somebody else's press!
As to the whole story not being about Elan, well Elan didn't happen in a vacume. I never did understand the desire on the part of, not only Elan ppl, but also Kids ppl and Bethel ppl and a few others, to want to be alone in this. You're not. As it turns out, Joe Ricci's life story is quite similar to Art Barker's.
The way I see it, the book tells some of the Elan story that you want told and does it in the context of the people who made it happen, coverd it up and how they got stinking rich in the process.
I think Dan's agenda is just the same as any publisher; he wants people to read the story. I just don't see any dark, sinister subplot here. I don't see any way that his hawking his book can possibly do anything but help your objectives.
I don't go lookin' for trouble. I just keep a little in a box should someone come by who is.
--Bill Warbis
Post by: SyN on November 21, 2003, 11:29:00 PM
thats my oppinion its not going to change. If anyone wants me to be open with them they must be open with me. Are you any different? is anyone? Whats the problem?
I know im not alone i just dont talk with any other people that were in different programs except you and if they post here. just doesnt come up. I would i have But do i really have to explain myself?
I dont know what you wish for me to do about it, you must know me enough from my posts by now to know i hate allmost everyone equally anyway, no offense thats just me and many others from what i can see.
Anyway i hope my typing doesnt come off to cold, its just words ging and you know i dont mean you any disrespect, but you asked.
SyN
Post by: Antigen on November 22, 2003, 12:37:00 PM
I do talk to journalists and book authors any time they ask me. I don't really care about their background much beyond checking some of their prior work to see what they're about. I wouldn't, for example, give an interview to somebody who routinely wrote pro program pieces. But then, no one like that has ever asked to interview me.
No citizen of a liberal and democratic nation profits from a victorious war.
--Ludwig von Mises