Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 25, 2003, 07:49:00 AM
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Judge ends pulls plug on teen program
By Jacob Santini
The Salt Lake Tribune
October 25, 2003
It took 15 months, but Judith Pinson, the birth mother of a teen who died of heat exhaustion while hiking in a Utah outdoor wilderness therapy program last summer, finally received news Friday she had wanted to hear.
In a ruling released Friday, a state administrative judge revoked the operating license of Skyline Journey over the July 13, 2002, death of Ian August, a 14-year-old Texas boy enrolled in the program by his adoptive mother. The Nephi-based business has until next Friday to shut down and send an estimated 10 campers back to their homes.
"It's nice to get some good news," Pinson said in a telephone interview from Drumright, Okla. "It showed me somebody did pay attention. [Ian's] death means something."
Lee Wardle, an owner of the program, declined to say if Skyline Journey would appeal the ruling to a district court.
"I don't want to say anything at this point," Wardle said.
Ruling on just one of four operating violations alleged by the state during a series of hearings earlier this summer, the judge found that Skyline failed to provide a description of the environment and demands of the program on a form sent to a Texas doctor who cleared August to enroll.
Calling the requirement "one of the most critical rules governing wilderness programs," Sheleigh Harding, a Department of Human Service's administrative judge, said "Ian's doctor never had the opportunity to determine whether Ian's 'fair' physical condition would make him an appropriate candidate for the types of activities Skyline Journey would require him to do."
August stood at 5 feet 3 inches and weighed 198 pounds and was taking a medication that may have made him susceptible to overheating.
On the day of his death, August set out with five other teens and three counselors on a scheduled 3-mile trek across the Sawtooth Mountain region in western Millard County as a heat wave set records across the state. The group had covered little more than a mile in about 3 1/2 hours when August crested a ridge and refused to hike further.
The teen reportedly stood and sat in the sun for at least an hour before collapsing and being moved to the shade of two trees, according to court records. By 1:30 p.m., August stopped breathing and counselors were unable to revive him through several hours of CPR.
An autopsy later determined the teen died of hyperthermia, better known as heat exhaustion.
Mark Wardle, a program manager and part-owner of Skyline Journey, was cleared of criminal wrongdoing in August's death when a 4th District Court judge dismissed a charge of child abuse homicide against him in February.
Judith August, the teen's adoptive mother who reportedly has defended Skyline Journey in the past, didn't return telephone calls Friday.
Ken Stettler, the director of the state Office of Licensing, which regulates wilderness therapy programs in Utah (there are five others now operating), said Harding's ruling is "what we expected."
"I'm never pleased to see a program lose its license and operators losing their livelihood," he added.
The state also had alleged the Skyline staff failed to treat August in a timely manner, the hike exceeded the capabilities of the weakest member and the program failed to complete a review of the teen's health history before accepting him for enrollment.
Harding, however, declined to rule on the three allegations because a program can lose its license for just one violation.
State law requires wilderness programs to obtain a license prior to starting operations. That provision would prevent the Wardles from starting another program in Utah under a new name, Stettler said. But there is nothing to prevent them from starting a program in another state.
Cathy Sutton, the mother of the first teen to die in a Utah wilderness program 13 years ago, has fought unsuccessfully for years to create national regulations and licenses to govern the industry and its operators.
"I'm tired of saying the same thing," Sutton, of Ripon, Calif., said Friday. "The only thing that gets me thrilled, excited, and is worth talking about, is national legislation."
Sutton's daughter, Michelle, 15, died in May 1990 while hiking in the Arizona Strip as part of a St. George-based program. Authorities attributed her death to dehydration, heat exhaustion and altitude sickness. The state eventually closed the program; the Suttons received $345,000 to settle a wrongful-death lawsuit they brought against the program.
In the years since, Sutton's campaign for national regulations has done little, as programs across the country have remained popular and many parents praise them for changing the lives of their troubled children.
But today, Sutton has one additional ally.
"Not an hour goes by in the day that I don't think of him," Pinson said of the son she gave up at birth but with whom she remained in contact through an open adoption arrangement. "He's always in my heart. . . . Why should other parents have to go through what I have?"
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See link below for further details
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.homestead.c ... young.html (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.homestead.com/foreveryoung.html)
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Great news...for the moment.
More on this topic at:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... =9&start=0 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=&mode=viewtopic&topic=662&forum=9&start=0)
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What the hell are you people thinking?
Under the benign influence of our republican institutions, and the maintenance of peace with all nations whilst so many of them were engaged in bloody and wasteful wars, the fruits of a just policy were enjoyed in an unrivaled growth of our faculties and resources.
James Madison
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Grrrr why am I so coldhearted?
I get so fucking pissed when I read some mother whining about what SHE went through.
and then gets handed a chunk of change for a wrongful death lawsuit.
pawned their kid off now got money for it. :flame: Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
-- Emo Phillips
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Yeah, it sort of burns me up too. But these parents have to live with their choices forever, even if they never, ever acknowledge their mistakes. How many among us have intentionally raised our kids as far away from their grandparents as possible for reasons directly related to the Program? That's just one precious loss in their lives.
OTOH, how much would it have meant to you as a kid if your parents had sued the hell out of Straight and made a big, public stink about the harm Straight did to you? Hell, even a sincere apology did wonders for mine and my dad's relationship.
The legislature is to society as a physician is to the patient. If a physician ignored side effects of medications like today's legislators ignore the side effects of their legislation, the physician would be accused of malpractice. I accuse today's legislators (with rare exception) of legislative malpractice. Many of the ills that are so obvious in our society are a direct result of previous legislation. Their solution? More laws!
-- John A. Bennett, DO
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kdj,
I hear your frustration, I for one wouldn't consider sending my minor child to strangers, but there are situations in which parents are sold a bill of goods. Here's a link to a post by Cathy Sutton.
http://www.nospank.net/n-d07.htm (http://www.nospank.net/n-d07.htm)
For those of you who may not know, my daughter Michelle died on May 9th, 1990 while in the Summit Quest program, Utah. Michelle died of dehydration on the 7th day into the program while being accused of faking her flu like symptoms that began the day she arrived. While it has been said to me many times that I picked the program for my daughter and that she came from a dysfunctional family, I know that the program Michelle and I picked (the one SOLD to us) and the program my daughter received, were two totally different programs. We did not know the Summit Quest program was punitive. Can the state of California claim the same? They knew!! Who's dysfunctional now?
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Mark Wardle (Skyline Journey) was formerly associated with Sage Walk, On Track and Red Cliff Ascent. There is another Wardle (not sure if he is related to Skyline "Wardles" or not) that works for Diamond Ranch Academy, Hurricane, Utah.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... sit03.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2002/8/visit03.html)
:wave:
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I know and I do understand but it still angers me that most people will research a car more then the program they put their kid into.
BTW an apology STILL would go a long way in healing my realtionship with my parents. :evil: I tried for years to live according to everyone else's morality.
I tried to live like everyone else, to be like everyone else.
I said the right things even when I felt and thought quite differently.
And the result is a catastrophe.
---Albert Camus
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On 2003-10-25 18:07:00, kaydeejaded wrote:
"I know and I do understand but it still angers me that most people will research a car more then the program they put their kid into.
BTW an apology STILL would go a long way in healing my realtionship with my parents. :evil: I tried for years to live according to everyone else's morality.
I tried to live like everyone else, to be like everyone else.
I said the right things even when I felt and thought quite differently.
And the result is a catastrophe.
---Albert Camus
"
This is why I think there should be a national law mandating a court order for juvenile involuntary commitment, and requiring full informed consent for juvenile voluntary commitment.
There is a certain incidence of mental health problems in the adult population. These people have kids. They raise the kids in crazy environments, because of their own problems. They don't know they're suffering mental health problems, so when whatever the kid inherited genetically interacts with the nutty environment to produce teenage problems, they see the teen as The One With The Problem.
They're easily sold a bill of goods by these programs because these programs have relatively sane but unscrupulous people manipulating mentally ill people---like shooting fish in a barrel.
There needs to be a requirement for a court order for juvenile commitment, with the review of the mental health of the child and the parents. If the parents have significant mental health problems that could or do impact parenting style and the child's home environment, the child should first be placed with mentally healthy foster parents to see if all the child needs is a sane environment and perhaps outpatient treatment.
For adults with serious, life impacting mental problems, the rule is the patient is entitled to the least restrictive environment effective for treating the problem.
These kids, if their parents have mental health problems, deserve a chance in foster care with outpatient treatment BEFORE the heavy hammer of involuntary commitment---and restrictive boarding schools DO constitute involuntary commitment---is brought to bear.
I think the kid should also be shown the diagnostic criteria for ODD and CD before being placed in foster care. That way they know the criteria under which they're being evaluated, and have the opportunity to keep their noses clean if they can and will and avoid involuntary commitment.
But the programs don't want the teens who would respond well to outpatient treatment in foster care treated that way, because then the programs would lose the money that could be scammed out of the nutty parents.
Blaming the parents, if they are mentally ill, is like blaming a retarded kid for being scammed out of the hundred dollars you handed him before turning him loose in a poker game. Blame the people who are preying on the parents' mental illnesses.
Now, if the parents are mentally healthy and just negligent, fine, hang 'em high. But when they're mentally ill themselves, they're just too damned easy for these program sharks to manipulate.
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I agree with most of what you're saying, except for one thing. I don't think we need yet more federal legislation to fix this. I think we just need to apply the law as it is. Kids have rights. Kidnapping is already illegal. Assault is already illegal. There's no exception in the Constitution for minors. I agree with another poster who said that anything that would get CPS involved in the burbs ought to be enforced just as vigorously in private institutions.
That's beginning to happen to some extent. I think the IVth estate of government, the free press, is the best tool for the job.
All penalties for drug users should be dropped...Making drug abuse a crime is useless and even dangerous...Every year we seize more and more drugs but the quantity available still increases...Police are losing the drug battle worldwide.
--Raymond Kendall ~ Secretary General of Interpol 1994
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I agree with you Ginger it just makes me nervous to have any more "laws" esp. ones reaching back to Bush DFAF think about how helpful they would be.
Anyway they way justice moves we would all be dead before they set us free. They were investigating the straights for a year or something like that when they decided it was unsafe. Anything could of happened and did in that year. I swear by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
* - ~ Galt's Creed ~ - *
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"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke
My initial response was to sue her for defamation of character, but then I realized that I had no character.
-- Charles Barkley, on hearing Tonya Harding proclaim herself "the Charles Barkley of figure skating"
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I am just glad that another one of these places has been shut down .Saw the article in my paper ,and did my Tiger Woods impression when he sinks a hard and long putt .
Yes indeed,and another one bites the dust.
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Yeah, it's definitely a hit. But not necessarily a home run. If you check on the history of the owner, you find that familiar pattern where the guy's been affiliated with a few other schools and wilderness programs, some or all of which have shut down. Now the court stipulates that he's got to pull up stakes and set up in another state. Oh bother!
I think we are winning in the long run, though. I actually think it's a little funny that WWASP is suing PURE. Is the market in gullible parents and TOUGHLOVE judges getting that tight that they have to start going after eachother now?
At the bottom of it all, WWASP believers seem to be repeating like a magical incantation that all criticizm of them comes from these half a dozen or so people affiliated with PURE. Nothing could be further from the truth! This has been goning on since before Sue Scheff started recruiting for WWASP!
But I do find it disturbing that some folks I know who started out to oppose the Program seem to have fallen for this WWASP vs PURE false imperative. It seems to have the strength of an article of faith.
[1971 - 2001] the darkest chapter in Federal law enforcement history.
Committee on Government Reform
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On 2003-10-26 17:56:00, Antigen wrote:
"Yeah, it's definitely a hit. But not necessarily a home run. If you check on the history of the owner, you find that familiar pattern where the guy's been affiliated with a few other schools and wilderness programs, some or all of which have shut down. Now the court stipulates that he's got to pull up stakes and set up in another state. Oh bother!
I think we are winning in the long run, though. I actually think it's a little funny that WWASP is suing PURE. Is the market in gullible parents and TOUGHLOVE judges getting that tight that they have to start going after eachother now?
At the bottom of it all, WWASP believers seem to be repeating like a magical incantation that all criticizm of them comes from these half a dozen or so people affiliated with PURE. Nothing could be further from the truth! This has been goning on since before Sue Scheff started recruiting for WWASP!
But I do find it disturbing that some folks I know who started out to oppose the Program seem to have fallen for this WWASP vs PURE false imperative. It seems to have the strength of an article of faith.
[1971 - 2001] the darkest chapter in Federal law enforcement history.
Committee on Government Reform
"
Yes, Ginger, it is disturbing, and the height of hypocrisy.
"None are so industrious to detect wickedness, or so ready to impute it, as they whose crimes are apparent and confessed. They envy an unblemished reputation, and what they envy they are busy to destroy: they are unwilling to suppose themselves meaner and more corrupt than others, and therefore willingly pull down from their elevations those with whom they cannot rise to an equality."
Johnson: Rambler #76 (December 8, 1750)
::rainbow::
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R you sure that it isn't skyline chili that got its license revoked? Their food tastes like ass.
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The Spokesman Review is giving the public an opportunity to voice their opinion on this issue. You'll have to register, but it's quick and painless.
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/news-sto ... D=s1430322 (http://www.spokesmanreview.com/news-story.asp?date=102603&ID=s1430322)
What are your thoughts on Wilderness program loses license over teen's death
If you have a comment or reply to this story that you'd like to share, fill in the form and click submit. Note: Replies are limited to 250 words and must be signed with a valid email address. No profanity or libelous statements will be printed
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http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Oct/10292003/utah/106464.asp (http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Oct/10292003/utah/106464.asp)
Skyline program says it has sent its teens away
A wilderness therapy business recently ordered to close over the death of a camper last summer said Tuesday it has sent all its teen enrollees home or to other programs.
The state Office of Licensing will verify where the teens were sent and monitor to ensure that Skyline Journey is no longer operating, said Ken Stettler, the office's director.
"At this point, we're going to visit with land-use agencies, like the [Bureau of Land Management], and verify they aren't using their permits."
Skyline Journey operated on BLM land in western Millard and Juab counties.
Lee Wardle, a part owner of the Nephi-based program, declined to comment.
An administrative law judge last week stripped Skyline Journey of its operating license for failing to provide a description of the program to a Texas doctor who cleared 14-year-old Ian August to participate.
August, a 5-foot 3-inch and 198-pound teen, died of hyperthermia -- or heat exhaustion -- after hiking for more than three hours in the Sawtooth Mountain area on July 13, 2002, a day that set temperature records.
It is unknown whether the program will appeal the ruling.
-- Jacob Santini
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This is sad. Close down one version of Miss Minchin's Select Seminary and Korean POW camp and the poor kids just get sent to another one.
And the only thing that will stop it is a good set of national laws, vigorously enforced.
They couldn't stop kids working in coal mines and sweatshops without laws, they couldn't protect kids whose parents were beating them to death without laws, and as skeptical as I usually am of government and more government----why can't the kid's other relatives just drive up to these nightmare places and take the kid out? Because of the law. The law is a big part of causing the current problem. The only way to fix it is to change the laws.
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The state pulled the program's license shortly after Ian died but the program appealed, allowing it to stay open until administrative hearings were completed. See the Teen Advocates USA website for more info.
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.homestead.c ... a2003.html (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.homestead.com/Agenda2003.html)
:wave:
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I know it's frustrating. It's a long, drawn out process of elimination. For as long as this industry has been evolving, there have always been attempts to create a kinder, gentler behavior modification program. The final conclusion is always the same. If they take out the psyche abuse, then they're left with a bunch of kids in a warehouse or remote camp in the care of laymen with serious control issues.
Without the manipulation, there is no program. I think it's just a matter of more people coming to understand that. Always try to do things in chronological order; it's less confusing that way.
--Unknown
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On 2003-11-02 14:47:00, Antigen wrote:
"I know it's frustrating. It's a long, drawn out process of elimination. For as long as this industry has been evolving, there have always been attempts to create a kinder, gentler behavior modification program. The final conclusion is always the same. If they take out the psyche abuse, then they're left with a bunch of kids in a warehouse or remote camp in the care of laymen with serious control issues.
Without the manipulation, there is no program. I think it's just a matter of more people coming to understand that. Always try to do things in chronological order; it's less confusing that way.
--Unknown
"
So true, but programs are not the only ones guilty of manipulation. In fact, without the manipulative sales and marketing techniques of outside referral agents, many of these programs would be half-empty instead of so full of kids, they actually have a waiting list.
:smokin:
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On 2003-11-02 15:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2003-11-02 14:47:00, Antigen wrote:
Without the manipulation, there is no program. I think it's just a matter of more people coming to understand that.
So true, but programs are not the only ones guilty of manipulation. In fact, without the manipulative sales and marketing techniques of outside referral agents, many of these programs would be half-empty instead of so full of kids, they actually have a waiting list.
:smokin: "
Who are the outside agents? I always assumed it followed about the same structure as in the old days w/ the Seed and Straight. The recruiters were usually program parents. I found out awhile ago that my mom bad been recruiting for some SBC home for pregnant girls out in Mississippi or something. That was not long after I'd gotten out. But before that, she'd always been recruiting for The Seed and Straight. It was like an evangelical thing. Don't know if or how much she might have been paid for it.
Isn't that essentially how the ECs become ECs these days? Or is it different?
Life may have no meaning. Or even worse, it may have a meaning of which I disapprove.
Ashleigh Brilliant
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Oh dear lord, look at the spin Skyline put on their "Goodbye" statement to Struggling Teens. It's not surprising, but deceptive and repulsive- par for the industry.
November 7, 2003
After a long drawn out physical, mental, and expensive struggle Skyline Journey succumbed to the over powering office of licensing and was ordered to close the program on October 24, 2003.
All charges against Skyline Journey related to the death of a student on July 13, 2002 had been dismissed by the Courts but the office of licensing felt that to prove they were doing their jobs as a regulatory department issued an order of revocation.
Skyline Journey appealed and a year later, an administrative judge for the Department of Human Services for the State of Utah found that Skyline Journey had missed one item on the state regulations.
The rules state that the programs medical exam forms must have a statement explaining that the program is strenuous and conducted in an area with varying temperament and elevations. Skyline Journey had missed this on their forms. The State of Utah Licensing Department people had inspected Skyline Journey at least five times and they did not find the omission. [They actually "found" 4 of the 20+ violations I compiled, AFTER the DA filed charges. Stettler's office originally overlooked the obvious violations, and that's the way it would've went if the DA hadn't gotten involved.]
However, the regulations provided that the State of Utah Licensing Department can close a program with just one violation. We had one violation so consequently we are closed. [Nope, the judge chose to charge them with one of the four, "the worst" violation in her estimation.]
This does not bode well for other programs in Utah. One strike and you are out if the Utah Stat Licensing people so choose.
We want to express our appreciation, to you our dear friends, in trusting us and continued referring wonderful children to Skyline Journey and the encouraging kind words via; email, fax, mail and telephone calls. Thank You!!
This is a good-bye from Skyline Journey, but a new beginning for the Wardle Family.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/skylinebye.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/skylinebye.html)
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Is this the "new beginning"???
http://www.wardlehome.com/ (http://www.wardlehome.com/)
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On 2003-11-13 21:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Is this the "new beginning"???
http://www.wardlehome.com/ (http://www.wardlehome.com/)"
Am I seeing things or is the creator of the Wardles webpage really Woodbury Reports (as in Lon Woodbury's Struggling Teens)? Click on the link and scroll down to the bottom.
:scared:
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Yes, that would be Lon of Struggling Teens/ Woodbury Reports
The Wardles have 4 children who apparently worked for Skyline. The only name mentioned is Mark. Don't know about this Patrick.
It appears that Theresa was approved for private practice/clinical by the Idaho State Board of Social Work Examiners in April of this year.
Their new beginning could be the program they started in May, ?Distant Drums? for 18-28 yr olds.
Looks like Jeff Johnson moved on in June to a program in New York. The new Adm Director is Heather Roeder. Her office is in Williston, Vermont.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /np02.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2001/5/np02.html)
The Owens and Wardle Family own and manage Skyline Journey. Owners Austin Lee and Alberta have been married for forty-nine years, with four children and seventeen grandchildren. All off their children are involved in Skyline Journey with them. Other staff members include his son who has had eleven years in outdoor programs, an athletic director and certified teacher at a Utah high school, a medical doctor, a registered nurse experienced with therapeutic youth programs, and other family members.
http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jul/07132003/Utah/Utah.asp (http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jul/07132003/Utah/Utah.asp)
Skyline Journey, based in Nephi, is a family venture started 2 1/2 years ago by Austin Lee and Alberta Wardle and their four children. Son Mark spent 14 1/2 years working for other outdoor therapy programs.
http://www2.state.id.us/ibol/SWO/04-01-02%20minutes.htm (http://www2.state.id.us/ibol/SWO/04-01-02%20minutes.htm)
April 2003- Theresa approved for private practice/clinical by the Idaho State Board of Social Work Examiners
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... heard.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2003/6/jun03seennheard.html)
(May, 2003) Lee Wardle, announced they have started a companion program to Skyline Journey, called ?Distant Drums.? It is designed for young adults 18 to 28 years old who need to ?breathe fresh air, bask in the sun, hear the lonely cry of a coyote or watch wild horses, antelope, and the many species of raptors in their natural habitat.? They will participate in their ?very successful emotional growth program, therapy, positive peer culture philosophy, and a curriculum that includes life-skills. Distant Drums is operational with one group in the field at the present time.?
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... heard.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2003/9/sep03seennheard.html)
(Sept. 12, 2003) Lee Wardle, announced their emotional growth companion program, Distant Drums, for young adults ages 18 to 28, is continuing to be successful. They are also pleased to announce that Heather Roeder has agreed to be Admissions Director for both programs. She will work out her Williston, Vermont office and can be reached at 866-822-8336 or 802-878-2201. They also have contracted with Mountain View Counseling Center to provide for both programs therapy needs, and will be working with Gary Anderson, a State of Utah Certified Professional Counselor Intern (CPCI) and licensed Social Service Worker (SSW), with a Masters degree is in psychology. Anderson will be replacing Kevin Knutson, who has been their counselor since the program opened its doors three years ago.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... heard.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2003/6/jun03seennheard.html)
(June 04, 2003) Jim Glaeser, of Adirondack Leadership Expeditions, Saranac Lake, New York, 877-252-0869, is pleased to announce that Jeff Johnson, has joined the staff as the Director of Admissions. This newest outdoor program of the Aspen Education Group is in the northern part of the Adirondacks in upstate New York. Most of you know Jeff from his 7+ years with Aspen programs and the last 15 years of helping families through the admission process. He is happy to be working with Mark Oerther who is an admission counselor in that office. This new program is currently enrolling students.
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Lee pleads for referals to Distant Drums and expresses hope to have another adolescent program in the future.
Still deceiving the public (parents at ST)- "We had one violation so consequently we are closed."
Ahem, that should read: We were only charged with one violation.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/dis ... sopen.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/distantdrumsopen.html)
November 16, 2003
Dear Friends,
It was a pleasure for all of us from Distant Drums to talk to many of you at the great Scottsdale IECA Convention.
First, We want to thank each of you for your continuing support and appreciate your kind encouraging words.
After a long drawn out physical, mental, and expensive struggle Skyline Journey succumbed to the over powering off of licensing and was ordered to close the program on October 24, 2003. All charges against Skyline Journey related to the death of a student on July 13, 2002 had been dismissed by the courts, but the office of licensing felt that to prove they were doing their jobs as a regulatory department issued and order of revocation. Skyline Journey appealed and a year later, an administrative judge for the Department of Human Services for the State of Utah found that Skyline Journey had missed one item on the state regulations.
The rules state that the programs medical exam forms must have a statement explaining that the program is strenuous and conducted in an area with varying temperatures and elevations. Skyline Journey had missed this on their forms. The State of Utah Licensing Department had inspected Skyline Journey several times and they did not find the omission. However, the regulations provide that the State of Utah Licensing Department can close a program with just one violation. We had one violation so consequently we are closed. This does not bode will for other programs in Utah. One strike and you are out if the Utah Stat of Licensing people so choose.
We are still considering our options regarding adolescents and hope in the future to resume an emotional grown/therapeutic program.
Distant Drums was not affected by the State of Utah?s Licensing decision. Distant Drums an Outdoor Personal Growth Program designed to guide adults through the process of self-discovery. Distant Drums is being restructured to better serve a wider population. The young adults 18 through 28 population is underserved. We believe that Distant Drums has and will continue to help young adults.
Please keep Distant Drums in mind for your clients that are 18 through 28 years old. Native American Theme! Camping Experience! Life Skills Taught! Therapist! Open Enrollment! An Environment That Has No Need For Locks or Alarms! A Challenging Curriculum! 24/7 Satellite Telephone Contact! A Global Posting System Is Used In Tracking Each Group! Respect and Protect Mother Nature!
Distant drums Is Unique We have a Philosophy Of Abundance! Not a Deprivation Program!
Admissions Office for Distant Drums, please contact Heather at 866-822-8336.
For Distant Drums Business Office please call 435-623-0548
Sincerely,
Lee
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Anyone seen the latest comment at the Spokesman Review?
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/replies. ... d=r1430322 (http://www.spokesmanreview.com/replies.asp?date=102603&id=r1430322)
It reads (advertises):
This is why parents need to hire an independent educational consultant to recommend a wilderness or any other therapeutic program. This program was negligent. No responsibile wilderness program would take a student who weighed 200 lbs. and 5'3".
http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jul/07132003/Utah/Utah.asp (http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jul/07132003/Utah/Utah.asp)
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Check this out!! Another new program besides Distant Drums?
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... omenp.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2004/2/wardlehomenp.html)
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Yeh, Scroll up and read previous posts in this thread.
Just wondering how kosher it is for her to refer to her business as a "Therapeutic Foster Home" if she is not qualified to conduct therapy?
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Sheesh, that is a very good question. Sounds like IDAHO is the new hot spot for programs. Isn't that where Woodbury Reports headquarters is based?
:scared:
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Just visited the Idaho Health and Welfare Foster Parents site. Comments in FAQs raised even more questions about this operation.
http://www2.state.id.us/dhw/foster_care/english/faq.htm (http://www2.state.id.us/dhw/foster_care/english/faq.htm)
Given that one must posess a license from the state to be a foster parent, and kids are typically placed by the state; how is she working as a "foster home"?
Foster parents are paid by the state. Does that include kids who are not residents of Idaho or kids that were not placed in foster care by the state?
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Sorry to take up space, but the link to the article Brooke Adams did on Ian August's death [http://166.70.44.66/2003/Jul/07132003/Utah/Utah]and the details of what happened that day, now takes one to the SLT's home page instead, making it difficult to find. It is cached at Google- the link worked the first time but failed the second, iffy. This is an important article and parents should have easy access to the information it contains.
A Deadly Path
By Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Editor's note
This article is based on dozens of interviews in Oklahoma, Texas and Utah. Scenes and dialogue about the events leading to Ian August's death are taken from a transcript of the 9-1-1 call to the Millard County Sheriff's Office; a timeline constructed by Skyline Journey; a transcript of the preliminary hearing in Utah v. Mark Wardle, Leigh Hale and WOW Developments; Skyline Journey daily progress reports kept up to July 13, 2002; witness statements; incident reports filed by the Millard County Sheriff's Office; and a journal kept by Ian August.
First of two parts
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD Ian August set three simple goals last July 11 while camping with a wilderness therapy program in the Sawtooth Mountain area west of Delta.
Write a poem before dinner if at all possible, he wrote in his journal.
Do day hike without falling down and crying.
Go to bed very, very, very early.
Six days of sweltering heat in the west desert with the Skyline Journey program were taking a toll on the Austin, Texas, teen.
"We went on a day hike today, and I got dehidrated [sic] so I was the last one to to [sic] the little waterfalls," Ian wrote, sdding, "I layed [sic] down and rested a lot there."
Two days later, Ian August was dead -- though it would be hyperthermia, not dehydration, that killed him.
He became the fifth teen to die in a Utah wilderness therapy program, the third to perish from a heat illness.
Like most of those before him -- Michelle Sutton, Aaron Bacon and Kristen Chase -- Ian was judged to be "faking it" as he began to die.
As happened with the first death, 15-year-old Sutton on May 9, 1990, Ian's case triggered yet more rules for the state's wilderness therapy industry, which each year treats hundreds of troubled teens.
It also renewed discussion over the benefits and risks of such programs, a debate captured in the opposing views of the two women who loved Ian -- his birth mom and his adoptive mom -- in the aftermath of his death and a failed prosecution.
One boy, two families: Susan Hatfield Pinson, then living in Broken Arrow, Okla., was 20 when she became pregnant with a child she knew she could not raise. She was young, single and emotionally immature.
From the couples presented to her by Adoption Affiliates of Tulsa, Okla., she chose Judith August and Dale Whistler of Austin, Texas. Part of their appeal: The couple supported an open adoption, which would allow indirect contact between Susan and her child.
An adoptee herself, Susan didn't want her child to be haunted about family roots or the circumstances of the birth.
And just like that, the lives of Judith August, then 44, and Susan Hatfield Pinson, became linked.
Fate seemed to touch the choice from the beginning. On June 21, 1988, as the Austin couple arrived in Broken Arrow to meet Susan, she went into labor.
Judith was present in the delivery room as the black-haired, blue-eyed, 8 pound, 13 1/2 ounce baby boy entered the world at 6:12 p.m.
Susan kept Christopher Shawn, as she called him, for nearly a day as she made peace with her decision. Then she delivered him into the arms of his new parents, who would name him Ian Christopher August.
The two mothers went on to build distinctly different lives.
Susan, a nurse, married, had two sons and then divorced. In 2000, she remarried -- this time to her junior high sweetheart, Johnny Pinson. They are raising three boys. Their modest home in the small town of Drumright, Okla., where Johnny grew up and not far from Broken Arrow, is decorated with family photos and Elvis memorabilia.
Much of the description of Ian and Judith's lives comes from Susan, acquaintances, friends and public records. Judith declined to be interviewed for this story.
Judith, a massage therapist for more than 20 years, is an instructor at The New Beginning School of Massage in Austin. A Web site for the school describes Judith as a "nurturer, enfolding people in conscious compassion." Friends say she is petite, lithe, lovely and warm.
Judith and Dale, an artist, divorced when Ian was small. Dale now lives in Norway.
Over the years, with the adoption agency as go-between, the two mothers and their boy exchanged letters, schoolwork, photos and gifts. In 1994, Judith and Susan cut out the agency and began to deal directly with each other.
That November, Susan and her two young sons met 6-year-old Ian for the first time at a Dallas hotel. They went shopping, to the park and had photos made. Ian and Susan began to visit a couple times a year. Susan saw herself in her son -- from his giving nature to his bull-headedness and temper, struggles with weight and inability to make friends easily.
A search for help: Susan had only an inkling of the struggles Judith was having with Ian, who by age 8 was "acting out" a lot.
Judith put him in counseling; he began taking drugs for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and bipolar illness.
In 1999, friends urged Judith to move to a little community in the Texas Hill Country outside Austin that seemed a perfect refuge and expression of her values: Radiance. Neighbors say the close-knit community held appeal, too, as an extended family for Ian, then 11.
Radiance was founded in 1980 by practitioners of transcendental meditation interested in living "an ideal life."
Its 35 environmentally efficient homes are nestled down a long country road among tree-dotted grassy fields that are home to deer, foxes and other wildlife. There is a common pool and, just out of sight of the homes, the Maharishi Golden Dome of Pure Knowledge for daily meditation and community events.
Judith and Ian moved into a limestone and wood duplex on Concord Circle. Ian was already a loner who preferred staying inside, whiling away the hours with video and role-playing games such as Dungeons & Dragons.
Bill Brock and his family befriended the Augusts, and Ian joined Brock and his son on annual spring canoe trips down the Guadalupe River. Brock describes Ianas an "old soul" who was straightforward and more comfortable with adults than kids. Their conversations ran to deep topics -- God, humanity. "We didn't just talk baseball," Brock said.
But it quickly became apparent to some neighbors that Ian was a troubled child, strong-willed and defiant. Within weeks of moving into Radiance, he led some boys in peeing on the community mailbox.
Most neighbors felt sorry for him and for Judith, and reached out to help -- only to have such problems with Ian that he would end up banned from their homes. Ian seemed intent on destroying the very thing many say he longed for: to be part of their families. His antics were the subject of a community meeting that fall.
Roger Aker, who also lives in Radiance, said Judith once told him that Ian didn't like to be corrected. "He had established a pattern where he was defiant to any authority," Aker said. "I was afraid of him."
Neighbor Elena Michaelson offered to care for Ian one summer while Judith worked and taught classes. A month into it, she called the arrangement off after Ian and her son "got into a little scrape."
"Ian was a very beautiful person, but also very troubled," Michaelson said. "Judith was an extremely conscious person who tried her best with him but was overwhelmed by him."
At Michaelson's suggestion, Judith and Ian sought help and a supportive community at The Church of Conscious Harmony in Austin. The church is centered around contemplative prayer and the works of the spiritual theorist G. I. Gurdjieff, but borrows from whatever philosophy works to help members deepen self-knowledge, focus on positive energy and bring a consciousness of God into their daily lives.
Among the sayings carved in paving stones leading to the church's entrance: "Life is happening in the only way it can."
While Judith joined other adults for services in the main sanctuary, Ian spent Sundays in the teen room, decorated with an Oriental rug and sage green pillow seats, learning to meditate and explore spirituality.
"He loved it," Michaelson said. "It was the first time he felt a part of something."
But elsewhere, Ian's difficulties continued. At Dripping Springs Middle School, Ian had few friends.
"He kept to himself a whole lot," said Taylor Sessions, a schoolmate. Other kids say they avoided Ian because he was "mean."
Aaron Joseph, who hung out with Ian for about 18 months, said "the only reason [Ian] was mean to other people is they'd say things to him they shouldn't have said."
About his weight, for instance.
"He had a temper," acknowledges Aaron.
Several times, Ian threatened people seriously enough that police were called -- once for vowing to kill Aaron in front of some teachers.
He piled up in-school suspensions and referrals to the school's alternative education program, where he finished eighth grade. As the year ended, he received six months probation for making a "terroristic threat" at the school.
Judith arranged for him to attend Katherine Anne Porter, an alternative high school in Wimberly, Texas, in the fall.
Utah via New Mexico: Until then, Judith tried to keep Ian busy. There was a soccer camp in Albuquerque, N.M., and a weeklong retreat with The Church of Conscious Harmony's teen group at the Lama Foundation in Santa Fe, where Ian celebrated his 14th birthday.
On July 5, Ian boarded a plane bound for Utah and the Skyline Journey wilderness therapy program, recommended to Judith by an educational consulting firm in Austin.
With its infusion of American Indian concepts, it's easy to imagine why Skyline Journey appealed to Judith as she struggled with her troubled son.
Skyline Journey, based in Nephi, is a family venture started 2 1/2 years ago by Austin Lee and Alberta Wardle and their four children. Lee Wardle, whose mother wrote the Ute dictionary, was raised on the Uintah and Ouray Indian Reservation in Eastern Utah. He worked as police chief for the Ute Indian Tribe for 6 1/2 years and a criminal investigator for the Bureau of Indian Affairs for three decades. Son Mark spent 14 1/2 years working for other outdoor therapy programs.
Skyline targets the same youths as the rest of the troubled teen industry: kids 13 to 18 with drug, alcohol or behavioral problems. Skyline pledges to "put teens in touch with their potential" by taking them on 28- to 70-day treks in Utah's west desert.
The teens are taught Ute words, to make medicine bags and to learn outdoor skills. They complete four booklets called "Trails" that focus on introspection. A capstone of the program is a "naming ceremony" in which a teen receives an Earth name.
Skyline Journey costs $250 a day -- $1,750 a week or $7,000 a month. Teens receive gear, paid for by parents, that includes a sleeping bag, backpack, foam pad, tarp, cooking pot, two water bottles, camp clothing, disposable camera, spiral notebook and personal hygiene items.
While teens can be placed in the program within as little as a day, Judith called Skyline several times -- and Mark Wardle chatted briefly with Ian once. In another call, Judith told Mark Wardle that Ian wanted a photo of him -- the only time a teen has made that request.
When Ian received the photo, he stared at it, and according to Wardle, said, "I know him."
"I felt I'd met him before, too," said Wardle, who at 5 feet 6 inches tall and 240 pounds shares Ian's stout build. "We had a special bond."
Heat takes a toll: Utah weather forecasters predicted a week of record-breaking heat as Ian traveled into the west desert to begin a 28-day trek with Skyline Journey.
On his enrollment application, Judith listed Ian's troubles at school, his difficulty making friends and his increasingly threatening behavior. She had tried medication, special education, church programs, counseling and karate lessons to turn him around.
Now, she looked to Skyline Journey to help Ian develop more "harmonious" relationships, assume responsibility for his actions, gain respect for authority and recognize his self-worth.
She listed prescription drugs he took: Depakote and Topamax for bipolar disorder and Concerta for ADHD.
On Wednesday, the Food and Drug Administration issued a warning about the risks of hyperthermia associated with Topamax.
In response to a question about physical limitations, Judith wrote that Ian was overweight -- at 5 feet, 4 1/2 inches tall, he weighed 200 pounds -- and, with a low heat tolerance, was "easily overheated."
His heat intolerance was well known.
Classmate Taylor Sessions remembers Ian wandering the halls all sweaty, his hair drenched. One summer, Ian wore a gizmo-type fan around his neck to keep himself cool.
"He didn't want to be out in the heat at all," said neighbor Elena Michaelson. "He was pretty vocal about it."
Said Susan: "He was not an outdoorsy person. He was a couch potato."
On June 13, a doctor at Texas Urgent Care cleared Ian to participate in Skyline Journey's program while noting the boy was "obese" and his physical ability was "fair."
Ian arrived July 5 at the Bear Clan camp, which included two girls and three boys and three counselors. Mark Wardle, whom the teens call Red Feather, camped with Ian's group those first few days.
"He was hiking fine while I was there," Wardle said.
Others in the group said Ian quickly established himself as lazy, given to lying and unenthusiastic about hiking.
"He lies a lot but is real young, kind of big, very quiet but he is very lazy," one teen would later say of Ian. "He always tries to get out of stuff."
On July 6, a staff counselor noted in the daily progress report that Ian's first hike was "slow. Talks a lot about how to get out of the program. Not much help around camp. Have to ask a lot to help."
Ian's days fell into a routine: wake soon after sunrise, eat breakfast, get the poem topic of the day, break camp and hike until lunch. Then, set up camp, eat, work on his booklets and journal and finish his daily poem. The day ended with dinner, poem readings and clean up.
Ian dreaded the hikes.
"I barely made the hike '2' day. If I barely made it and it was only 1 mile how could I possibly make a two or three mile hike," he wrote about his July 7 trek.
A day later, he mused about hiking "to a hotel."
After four days with the Bear Clan, Ian still plodded along, though staff saw some improvement. He had yet to finish his first self-improvement workbook, in part because he was distracted that Wednesday by a staff change as Leigh Hale, 24, Matt Gause, 22, and an intern arrived for their weekly stint in the field.
Hale, who declined an interview, had worked for Skyline Journey for about seven months; Gause, who could not be reached for comment, had signed on about four weeks earlier.
That night, after a dinner of beef stew, the teens shared their poems about home. Ian had written: "Home makes me happy and so do my friends. I can't think of anymore so good bye till I write again."
The teens were up by 7:45 a.m. on Thursday, July 11. After a breakfast of pancakes and bacon, the clan received the day's poem topic -- love -- and broke camp. They hiked 45 minutes, stopping in North Canyon.
Record-setting heat baked Utah that day; it reached an estimated 96.6 degrees that afternoon where Bear Clan made a new camp. The staff assigned Ian to dig a latrine, which took him four tries to get right, Hale noted in the progress log.
In the afternoon, the group hiked to some waterfalls, the effort that so exhausted Ian, according to his journal.
That night, Hale noted that "everyone except Ian drank a lot of water." She wrote that Ian had refused to eat the last two meals because he "doesn't like what we are eating." He "doesn't do much and talks back every time he is asked to do something . . . Really slow hiker." On July 12, Bear Clan laid low during the day. Ian finished a required autobiography -- detailing his adoption, his appended family, his troubles with other kids at school. At least, Hale recorded in her log, he was eating his meals without complaining.
A staff nurse visited the camp and checked each teen; she advised Ian to "keep drinking water." He and the other teens took two-minute showers at a portable stall. And there was a treat: Popsicles.
That afternoon, it reached an estimated 97.6 degrees in the Marjum Pass area where the group camped. About 70 miles away in Delta, the temperature reached a record 107 degrees.
For dinner, Bear Clan had summer sausage, cheese, crackers, an apple and milk. At dusk, the clan packed up and began hiking in order to shorten the next day's trek. They walked until it was too dark to see and then bedded down for the night.
The fatal mile: The sun rose at 6:08 a.m. on July 13 and began to broil Utah. The headline on a Page 1 story in The Salt Lake Tribune promised "No Break from Heat" as weather forecasters predicted all-time highs. In North Canyon, Bear Clan breakfasted on Toasty O's cereal, slices of bread spread with peanut butter and jelly, a piece of fruit and juice.
The clan set out for what was supposed to be a 3-mile hike around 9 a.m. -- a little later than Hale had hoped in order to avoid the heat.
Ian hiked slower than usual on the strenuous route; he and another teen stopped every few minutes, moving at the rate of one city block an hour based on a reading from Hale's GPS unit.
Soon, the group spread out, with the faster hikers ahead, Ian in the middle and Hale in the rear with the slowest boy.
Ian finished his water, his supply already reduced during the previous night's hike, and began to complain of thirst. Some teens shared their water, and Hale gave him half of her quart at one point. Ian drank it in a gulp.
The group crossed three ridges, one hill after another. Ian labored, at times stumbling. Two teens started urging him along.
"Come on, man, you can do it," one teen told Ian, according to a witness statement taken by the Millard County Sheriff's Office.
But as Ian crested that final hill around 11:30 a.m., after hiking 1.4 miles, all he could see before him was more of the same: up, down, up and down, an undulating landscape of sagebrush, native grasses, broken shale and scattered junipers and pinyon trees. To his right spread the Sevier Desert, empty and browned under the summer sun.
On the ridge, Ian stood still, his body already in the process of shutting down as his blood thickened in the heat and he became delirious. One teen noted Ian didn't seem to know what was going on.
"Come on, man." Ian didn't respond. "You can go down this hill willingly or we can put you down it," his hiking companion said.
Gause, who had reached the crest of the next hill, watched the agitated teens as they spent approximately 20 minutes trying to get Ian moving.
"Come on, man, who dogs it on the downhill?" one frustrated teen asked Ian.
Ian just stood there, dazed and sweating "like a pig."
The teen grabbed him and began pulling him along. Ian finally responded.
"Oh, I can do it," he said.
When Ian didn't move, the boys threatened to drag him to the next camp.
"No, I can do it," Ian said. And then he sat down. The two teens pulled off Ian's 29-pound backpack, and Ian lay against it.
One teen backtracked to Hale, who was about 20 yards away. She called out to him: "Ian, get your pack on and let's go."
When Hale reached Ian, he stood briefly and then sank back down to his pack.
"So do you need a break? Are you tired? What's the problem?" Hale asked Ian. He crossed his arms and stared at her. Hale tried to cajole Ian into moving for about 20 minutes. According to one teen's taped statement, Hale nudged Ian with her foot, shook him and slapped his face to try to rouse him from his stupor. Finally, she pulled out her radio and called Mark Wardle, who was in Delta.
"I can't convince Ian that he needs to continue hiking," she told Wardle. "What should I do?"
Wardle told her to check Ian's consciousness by doing a "hand drop test" -- holding his arm above his face and letting it go to see how he reacted. It flushes out fakers, Hale would say later, because a conscious person will protect the face.
Ian's arm slipped to his side.
"I need to know if there's something wrong," Hale said to Ian. "Respond to me, tell me your name."
"Ian," he said.
Hale called Wardle again. "He seems to be conscious," she reported. "I can't get him to hike. What should I do?"
Wardle, who already had begun driving toward Marjum Pass, told Hale to pour water over Ian and move him into the shade.
Hale beckoned to Gause to come assist her. Ian now lay on the ground, motionless, his eyes open and occasionally making contact although his breathing was "strange," a mixture of a moan and a cry.
The counselors sat Ian up and tried to get him to drink water. It merely dribbled down his face. They poured warm water from their bottles over his head, chest and back.
The noon sun had burned down on the dying teen for more than an hour when Gause grabbed Ian's torso and Hale held his feet and "pulled" him 10 feet to a patch of shade under a pinyon tree.
Still convinced Ian was faking illness, the two counselors split up -- Hale running ahead to check on the rest of the clan and Gause moving 30 to 50 feet away so he could observe Ian from behind another tree.
Gause noticed Ian's moans stopped minutes after Hale left -- proof, he figured, that Ian was acting. Gause waited about 10 minutes and then crept closer to Ian.
As Hale made her way back to the tree, Wardle called for an update.
"How is Ian doing?" Hale yelled over to Gause, who, figuring his cover was blown, hurried to the tree.
Ian had stopped breathing and lacked a pulse.
Sitting alone under the pinyon, Ian August had died.
As Gause began CPR, Hale called Wardle for help. The 9-1-1 call came into the Millard County Sheriff's Office at 1:30 p.m.; it would take two hours for the ambulance crew to reach Ian and in a series of errors, an AirMed helicopter dispatched from Salt Lake City, would never arrive after receiving incorrect GPS coordinates and running low on fuel.
The truth is, medical experts later concluded, it didn't matter. Only an immediate ice bath might have saved Ian.
Judith called Susan on July 14. "Are you sitting down," she began.
"Yes," Susan said.
"Our son is dead," Judith told her.
One boy, two views: At The Church of Conscious Harmony, a small altar sits against a wall in the teen room. It holds three wooden crosses, candles and a framed photo of Ian.
Memories of Ian remain strong.
One teen who was in Santa Fe with Ian in the last weeks of his life, has said Ian "will forever be my symbol for my intent to change my selfish ways."
Each of his mothers lives with the tough choices she made with Ian's best interests at heart.
Judith has chosen to accept Ian's death and holds Skyline Journey blameless. When a state investigator vowed to learn why Ian died, Judith told him, "We may never know the reason."
The Church of Conscious Harmony held a memorial service for Ian on Aug. 11. When it was over, Judith gave Susan a porcelain box filled with half of Ian's ashes; now housed in a larger wooden box, it sits on a mantle over the fireplace in the Pinson's Drumright home.
Judith's neighbors at Radiance learned only after his death that Ian had gone to Utah for wilderness therapy but understand her decision.
"He needed real care," Elena Michaelson said.
Most also understand Judith's decision to accept what happened to Ian in Utah as fate or karma, the work of larger forces.
Judith "did not want to be a victim at all in the situation or blame any one. Death, even an accidental death, is not always even accidental," Michaelson said.
She has told friends that Ian was a "great teacher" in life, forcing people to be awake, aware and conscious of their own actions. "She always looked at him like he was her gift," Michaelson said.
In May, Judith returned to Utah with a stone tablet memorializing Ian made by members of Conscious Harmony. The tablet, along with a stone engraved with Ian's name, are buried near the tree where he died.
But there is no peace for Susan and her husband, the whys tumbling over and over in their thoughts. Why did a criminal case against Skyline fail? Why did Skyline staff wait so long to help Ian, even if they believed he was faking his symptoms? Why didn't Judith turn to them for help?
"We had the resources to help and the willingness," Johnny Pinson said.
A judge's decision to dismiss criminal charges amounts to saying Ian's life "wasn't important enough to fight for," Susan said.
The couple lacks legal standing to push the case in a civil lawsuit, so they share Ian's story with anyone who will listen.
"I can best honor Ian by trying to make a difference by speaking out at every opportunity about programs like this and about the people that were involved," Susan said.
The common ground Susan once shared with Judith is a chasm now.
"She is so forgiving of Skyline Journey," Susan said. "She doesn't think they did anything wrong. There is such a difference in our feelings and our opinions.
"We're just two different people, with very different beliefs. The bond we share is not there anymore. It died with Ian."
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Tribune staff writers Elizabeth Neff and Jacob Santini contributed to this story.
Cached at Google (link may not work):
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:Cb ... rney&hl=en (http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:Cb2ZmyzvBGMJ:166.70.44.66/2003/Jul/07132003/Utah/Utah.asp+%22brooke+adams%22+%2B+skyline+journey&hl=en)
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My son went to Skyline Journey on Oct.1,2002. I knew about Ian August's death prior to sending my son there. They were the highest rated in the industry. I did more research on this than anything I've had interest in before. I checked them out with many agencys in Utah. I called former students and their parents that were from my state and heard all positive feedback. I had the death explained to me by a state inspector who investagated and interviewed all the kids and staff involved. I made the choice to send him. He spent 97 days there. We flew out to get him and spent the night in the field with the group. We slept in a tent with the kids and staff, it had a wood stove in it. They treated the kids very well.
They never took things away. To punish foul language, they would have to carry a rock in their pack. My son cleaned up his mouth in 3 days. The pack had 10 rocks one day. They would hike each day to their new campsite where they would find their food and water and been waiting for them. The tent and stove would be waiting there too. They would locate their next site with a GSP unit that the foreman of the day would lead them to. They were rewarded with candy and soda for getting schoolwork, ect done on time, or for acts of kindness. The kids there were happy. They formed friendships across the country. My son wanted to go back and work for them when he finished school. This program was wonderful to and for the kids. All the parents were told that this was not a cure all and most kids needed a follow up plan when they returned home. The Wardle's are very caring people. They do not have four children involved. Only Mark who is in his 40's. He visits the kids every day but is not a counciler. He taught them how to make fire with a bow drill. My son made me a ghost bead necklace. They made capotes (jackets from blankets), hats, mittens, and drums. They were taught respest and pride, something so many teens have lost. Please don't condem these wonderful people who have helped so many kids get their lives on track. Yes, Ian August's death was a horrible thing. He was cleared be a doctor prior to going to Skyline as was my son. A form needed to be filled out by the DR. and the exam needed to be less than 30 days old. Who is at fault here? We may never know....Also, The Wardle home for girls is not related. Any questions, I'll be happy to reply providing I am not called names and insulted. I will not reply to and nonsence.
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Sounds just wonderful. Unless, of course, you're a kid dying of heat exhaustion and no one will believe you.
What the hell though, right? Even Joseph Goebels was said to have been a wonderfully caring and attentive father. If All it takes is an infinite number of monkeys with type writers, then how come there's no Shakespeare coming out of AOL?
-- Anonymous
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Liashram,
Welcome. I?m truly glad that your son did not become a casualty of wilderness ?therapy?. It?s also cool that he learned some valuable skills, like starting a fire from a bow drill- something parents could teach in their backyards or on camping trips with their kids. And making useful things like jackets and mittens. Those do seem to be some of the more positive aspects of a program.
And yes, I have some questions.
You had ?the death? explained to you by a state inspector? Who was that? What were you told?
***We flew out to get him and spent the night in the field with the group. We slept in a tent with the kids and staff, it had a wood stove in it.
Did the parents of the other participants sleep in the tent with you, the hikers and counselors?
***To punish foul language, they would have to carry a rock in their pack. My son cleaned up his mouth in 3 days. The pack had 10 rocks one day.
How much did your son?s pack weigh when it was loaded down with 10 rocks? Did it exceed the maximum allowed weight? Regs state that packs: shall not exceed 20 percent of the consumer's body weight. If the consumer is required to carry other items, the total of all weight carried shall not exceed 30% of the consumer's body weight.
***They would hike each day to their new campsite where they would find their food and water and been waiting for them.
Was your son in possession of water at all times? Did he ever run out before reaching the next drop shipment? Regs require 6 quarts per day. How long were the hikes? How many quarts did your son carry in his pack, along with the rocks and other supplies? Did he receive electrolyte replacement? Did your son receive 3,000 calorie per day? And an additional 30-100% more calories when hiking and in cold weather? Did he take a multiple vitamin daily?
***They were rewarded with candy and soda for getting schoolwork, ect done on time, or for acts of kindness.
Rewarding children with candy and sodas is controversial, but I don?t have time or the inclination to go there just now. I am aware that Ian received a popsicle the night before he died. That was sweet and all, but it doesn?t make up for the negligence that occurred the following day.
***They do not have four children involved. Only Mark who is in his 40's. He visits the kids every day but is not a counciler.
This article states that, ?All of their children are involved in Skyline Journey with them.? Do you know better than Lee Wardle, who provided that information?
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /np02.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2001/5/np02.html)
***Please don't condem these wonderful people who have helped so many kids get their lives on track.
I?m sure that the Wardles are fine people. Good people make terrible mistakes everyday. Those mistakes are often considered criminal. I think they should be thanking their lucky stars that none of them are serving prison sentences. Some very good people are in prison, as we speak, for much lesser, non-violent crimes.
***Yes, Ian August's death was a horrible thing.
Yes it was a horrible thing. Ian and others like him are but guinea pigs in the experimental field of youth wilderness therapy. Their lives are put at risk while counselors, program owners, and licensing officials fumble around; figuring out what works and what doesn?t. We can only hope they are learning, and the same mistakes will not be repeated. Regulations will never protect against human error whether ignorance or malic. There is absolutely no reason these kids need to be hiked that far out in the wilderness. It is ridiculous and should not be allowed. There have been 29 deaths, 45 if you include boot camps. This is unconscionable, particularly when there are certainly other therapeutic options available that don?t include the risk of death.
***He was cleared be a doctor prior to going to Skyline as was my son.
Did you not read or are you choosing to ignore that it was determined that Ian?s doctor was not fully advised of the rigorous nature of the program?
***Who is at fault here? We may never know.
I won?t let that thought go without commenting that some of us absolutely know who made mistakes that day. Ian knows too, but unfortunately is no longer with us and can not recount the events leading up to his death. We must depend on others accounts, which are damning, in and of themselves.
***Also, The Wardle home for girls is not related.
I could be mistaken, but I don?t recall anyone saying that the home for girls was related to Skyline Journey, except that one of the Wardle kids was running it.
***Any questions
Yes. I?d like for you to read Brooke Adams? account of the event that took place that day. Insert your son's name in place of Ian's, and answer how it makes you feel. If you see any neglect. Pay particularly close attention to the way Ian was spoken to while he was dying. Does the manner in which his counselors treated him or allowed the other participants to treat him sound therapeutic to you? Given your comment regarding being ?called names and insulted?- I can only imagine that you will find it rude, thoughtless, cruel, and the antithesis of therapeutic, if you are honest.
-
On 2004-07-26 15:33:00, Deborah wrote:
"Liashram,
Welcome. I?m truly glad that your son did not become a casualty of wilderness ?therapy?. It?s also cool that he learned some valuable skills, like starting a fire from a bow drill- something parents could teach in their backyards or on camping trips with their kids. And making useful things like jackets and mittens. Those do seem to be some of the more positive aspects of a program.
And yes, I have some questions.
You had ?the death? explained to you by a state inspector? Who was that? What were you told?
****His name is Kelly Husbands. He is in the dept. of licencing. He told me pretty much what the article said. He also spoke to the Mom and understood the child to be combative.
***We flew out to get him and spent the night in the field with the group. We slept in a tent with the kids and staff, it had a wood stove in it.
Did the parents of the other participants sleep in the tent with you, the hikers and counselors?
****Only the parents who are picking up their child sleep there if they choose to. We wanted to spend the day and night so we could be more in touch with the program's operation and what our son had done while he was there. All campers and staff slept together.
***To punish foul language, they would have to carry a rock in their pack. My son cleaned up his mouth in 3 days. The pack had 10 rocks one day.
How much did your son?s pack weigh when it was loaded down with 10 rocks? Did it exceed the maximum allowed weight? Regs state that packs: shall not exceed 20 percent of the consumer's body weight. If the consumer is required to carry other items, the total of all weight carried shall not exceed 30% of the consumer's body weight. ****I cannot answer this one. I was told about it on the phone shortly after he arrived. I called to check on him every two days.
***They would hike each day to their new campsite where they would find their food and water and been waiting for them.
Was your son in possession of water at all times? Did he ever run out before reaching the next drop shipment? Regs require 6 quarts per day. How long were the hikes? How many quarts did your son carry in his pack, along with the rocks and other supplies? Did he receive electrolyte replacement? Did your son receive 3,000 calorie per day? And an additional 30-100% more calories when hiking and in cold weather? Did he take a multiple vitamin daily?
****The kids had two quarts upon departure, and had to consume one QT prior to hiking. They hiked 2-5 miles each day. Their menu was posted on the internet each day. The calories were posted too, although not being a nutritionist, I can't swear to the accuracy. He had a vitamin each day and I do not know about the electrolyte replacement. I am unaware of this. They were given plenty of food.
***They were rewarded with candy and soda for getting schoolwork, ect done on time, or for acts of kindness.
****This was not an earned reward, always a suprise. It was given to all.
Rewarding children with candy and sodas is controversial, but I don?t have time or the inclination to go there just now. I am aware that Ian received a popsicle the night before he died. That was sweet and all, but it doesn?t make up for the negligence that occurred the following day.
***They do not have four children involved. Only Mark who is in his 40's. He visits the kids every day but is not a counciler.
This article states that, ?All of their children are involved in Skyline Journey with them.? Do you know better than Lee Wardle, who provided that information?*****WHY THE SARCASM?
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /np02.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2001/5/np02.html)
****I know for a FACT that Mark is the only child of Lee & Alberta that was involved in the daily operations. Another son that lives in Japan has financial involvement.
***Please don't condem these wonderful people who have helped so many kids get their lives on track.
I?m sure that the Wardles are fine people. Good people make terrible mistakes everyday. Those mistakes are often considered criminal. I think they should be thanking their lucky stars that none of them are serving prison sentences. Some very good people are in prison, as we speak, for much lesser, non-violent crimes.
***Yes, Ian August's death was a horrible thing.
Yes it was a horrible thing. Ian and others like him are but guinea pigs in the experimental field of youth wilderness therapy. Their lives are put at risk while counselors, program owners, and licensing officials fumble around; figuring out what works and what doesn?t. We can only hope they are learning, and the same mistakes will not be repeated. Regulations will never protect against human error whether ignorance or malic. There is absolutely no reason these kids need to be hiked that far out in the wilderness. It is ridiculous and should not be allowed. There have been 29 deaths, 45 if you include boot camps. This is unconscionable, particularly when there are certainly other therapeutic options available that don?t include the risk of death.
***He was cleared be a doctor prior to going to Skyline as was my son.
Did you not read or are you choosing to ignore that it was determined that Ian?s doctor was not fully advised of the rigorous nature of the program?
****I did read this and I do not believe it. I had to fill out a medical history and it stated that there would be hiking up to several miles daily. Did his DR miss something? Did Mom miss something? I was fully informed about hiking. Reporters constantly make errors(such as 4 wardle children all involved)
***Who is at fault here? We may never know.
I won?t let that thought go without commenting that some of us absolutely know who made mistakes that day. Ian knows too, but unfortunately is no longer with us and can not recount the events leading up to his death. We must depend on others accounts, which are damning, in and of themselves.
***Also, The Wardle home for girls is not related.
I could be mistaken, but I don?t recall anyone saying that the home for girls was related to Skyline Journey, except that one of the Wardle kids was running it.**** I may have read this on another posting.
***Any questions
Yes. I?d like for you to read Brooke Adams? account of the event that took place that day. Insert your son's name in place of Ian's, and answer how it makes you feel. If you see any neglect. Pay particularly close attention to the way Ian was spoken to while he was dying. Does the manner in which his counselors treated him or allowed the other participants to treat him sound therapeutic to you? Given your comment regarding being ?called names and insulted?- I can only imagine that you will find it rude, thoughtless, cruel, and the antithesis of therapeutic, if you are honest.
****The other kids were aggeravated because he was holding them back. Had they known he wrer truly ill, I'm sure this wouldn't have happened.
"****I did what you suggested and it is painful. I am very fortunate this was not my son. I think my reason for accepting his death is because his mom did. His real Mom. The one that lived with him and watched him grow, suffer and cause her pain as well as himself.(Please forgive me for speaking about him in a negitive manner, I mean no disrespect) He was difficult, defiant, angry boy. I had one too. Only mine was not angry. If you could walk in our shoes for just a short time, you could better understand the daily pain involved,and how we so desperatly want to help our child. This seemed like my only option.
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On 2004-07-26 20:41:00, Llahsram wrote:
****The other kids were aggeravated because he was holding them back. Had they known he wrer truly ill, I'm sure this wouldn't have happened.
There's a damned good reason why all those kids and whatever adults were around failed to notice that this kid was actually very, very ill for a couple of days. And here it is:
"****I did what you suggested and it is painful. I am very fortunate this was not my son. I think my reason for accepting his death is because his mom did. His real Mom. The one that lived with him and watched him grow, suffer and cause her pain as well as himself.(Please forgive me for speaking about him in a negitive manner, I mean no disrespect) He was difficult, defiant, angry boy. I had one too. Only mine was not angry. If you could walk in our shoes for just a short time, you could better understand the daily pain involved,and how we so desperatly want to help our child. This seemed like my only option.
You seem to view yourself, the adult in the relationship, the one w/ all the power--legal, financial, emotional, intellectual, etc.--as a victim????? Oh, you poor, poor dear! Having to suffer through your child's mood swings and such!
Having read this, I'm inclined to believe that you wouldn't notice if your son were currently bug all crazy from his experience. So long as he says "Yes Ma'am!" and complies w/ your every directive, I think you're probably just fine w/ letting him suffer in quiet solitude.
Kid, if you read this, remember that legal minority expires quicker than you can imagine and you have your whole life to build the authentic, reliable relationships you need.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The people who ran straight had the best of intentions. I hope they reached their destination.
James Lloyd
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Liasham,
I?m imagining that Kelly Husbands didn?t disclose to you, his personal relationship with Wardle.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 9&start=10 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=D&topic=5615&forum=9&start=10)
Husbands should have recused himself in this case, instead of continuing to defend and promote his friend?s program. Stettler, the Lic Dir later removed him due to the obvious conflict of interest. What I don?t know for sure is if he was removed from the case before or after he spoke to you when your son was placed there Oct 1. Perhaps Cherish Wisdom can clarify what date Husbands was removed.
From the very beginning, Stettler and Husbands ever action appeared to be in defense of SJ. Here's a sampling of the damage-control efforts that started immediately. Numerous parties were involved.
7/15/02 SJ officials declined to comment to the press until the state had completed their investigation, yet the very same, Lee Wardle sent a press release to Struggling Teens (Industry promotional website), stating that Kelly Husbands had found that SJ ?has complied with all state regulations, and can find no wrong doing.?
And, that Ian had just finished his third quart of water when he stopped hiking. Yet it was later reported that, ?Ian finished his water, his supply already reduced during the previous night's hike, and began to complain of thirst. Some teens shared their water, and Hale gave him half of her quart at one point. Ian drank it in a gulp.?
Stettler stated that the temperature was 90-95 and they were hiking ?above 8,000 ft?.
7/16/02 Stettler claims that he knew SJ was in compliance with regs regarding temperature, because ?counselors carry thermometers?. Reported no initial indication that SJ violated regs or failed to bring enough water. Now states that they were hiking at 7,000 feet where the air is cooler. Later the Salt Lake Tribune reported the elevation of Marjum Pass to be 6,400 ft.
Stettler claims that his inspector recorded 95* at the site on Monday at 1:30. Note: It was 11* cooler that day.
In another article Mark Wardle blamed Ian?s death on the slow response time by emergency workers, stating it should have only taken 40 minutes.
The sheriff rebutted saying, ?The group was 70 miles from Delta, 25-30 of those miles are reached first by a gravel road, then a ?two-wheel-track kind of a road? and finally by a hike of one to two miles.?
Wardle also tried to accuse the rescue workers of not ?trusting? his directions. In fact, ?Rescuers split into two groups, one following Wardle?s directions to a road that proved impassable and the other hiking to Ian with a handheld GPS unit. The hikers reached him first and, on their arrival, pronounced him dead.
7/17/02 Stettler: said he knew "for sure" that the temperature was under 95 degrees DURING the hike because program officials carried thermometers with them. He obviously didn?t check with other sources, the rescuers logged 106* at the site when they arrived shortly after 2pm.
He also stated that SJ responded correctly to Ian?s situation and that he was waiting for an official cause of death and a completed police report before making a determination about possible violations.
Stettler excused the fact that Ian?s group continued to hike when he stopped by saying it was not a violation because "the individual who couldn't continue wasn't forced to." However, the state regulation reads: "Hiking shall not exceed the physical capability of the weakest member of the group. If a [youth] cannot or will not hike, the group shall not continue." In fact, the slowest hiker proved to be a boy with ?high-functioning autism?.
SJ also reported that, the EMT counselor stayed with Ian and a tarp was provided for shade. Court testimony would later reveal this to be a lie- No tarp, and the counselor did not stay with him.
7/19/02 Mark Wardle reports that the temperature was ?under 95?.
Lee Wardle claimed that Ian sat under a tree for two hours, then collapsed.
Court testimony would later reveal this to be a lie. He was made to sit in the sun for over an hour and then propped against a pinion tree.
7/21/02 Stettler sent another (?) investigator to re-examine and re-interview.
?When the county filed charges we said, ?Crud, there?s got to be something.?? Wondered whether his investigators had been too focused on the temperature at the scene. Once charges were filed, Stettler redirected them to refocus on other potential violations of state rules.
7/23/02 Jeff Johnson (Adm Dir) sends another press release to Struggling Teens stating that temp was less than 90*. Even though staff logged 90* at 8:30. He states that deputies had confirmed temp was less than 90*, after contacting the US Meteorological Service. Temp at 11:30 at the altitude (6,800 ft)- 85-86*. The Sheriff?s office disputed this on 9/20 stating that they believed the temp was above 95*. Still claims that Ian sat in the shade when he quit hiking. And that the medical examiner had found no observable cause of death.
Simultaneously, several letters of support are posted at Struggling Teens.
8/5/02 Lee Wardle sent a statement to Struggling Teens saying that the state had completed a thorough investigation couldn?t find any violations of regs, company rules, or lack of common sense on the part of SJ. Still operating and ?appreciate the referrals that are coming from all sources?.
Husbands wrote in his final report that "there is no credible evidence or statement that indicates that Skyline Journey was out of compliance with Office of Licensing rules or their own policies in the death of Ian August. There is also no evidence that Ian was abused or that his needs were not met by the staff in the field."
8/8/2002 Lon posts a glowing visit report at Struggling Teens.
9/21/02 DA charges Wardle and Hale with child-abuse homicide.
10/11/02 Just 10 days after your son arrived at SJ, the DHS issued a press release.
Reinvestigation found 4 violations:
1)Hike exceeded the physical capabilities of the weakest member
2) Improper Admissions Screening- should have considered his medical history (overheating)
3) Doctor?s form didn?t describe the physical demands or environment
4) Didn?t treat effects of heat illness in a timely or reasonable manner.
DHS will revoke license on 25 Oct.
http://www.dhs.utah.gov/pdf/Skyline%20Revoked.pdf (http://www.dhs.utah.gov/pdf/Skyline%20Revoked.pdf)
10/12/02 Stettler states that he believes Ian sat in sun for up to an hour after showing signs.
12/2002 The DHS posts an advertisement/endorsment for wilderness programs on their website.
1/3/03 Defense Attorney: Contends it was less than 95*. Continues to say that If the case proceeds to trial, gauging an EXACT temperature will be a central issue. Impossible. Their own employee logged 90* at 8:30 and rescuers logged 106* just after 2pm.
1/7/03 At the preliminary hearing (the lone defense witness) Kelly Husbands testified before Judge Eyre, despite the fact that he was removed from the case when it was discovered that he and Wardle attended the same LDS church ward. Husbands told the court that by his ?rough estimation? it would have been about 88* degrees at 12:30 on the day Ian died. Among other things, two days after Ian died, Husbands hung a pocket thermometer in a tree at a similar elevation. An impossibility- the counselor logged 90* at 8:30.
Husbands told the judge that SJ was run better than most programs.
Also that he had found SJ had a single violation related to the death- failing to provide August's Texas doctor with an adequate description of the environment and the program's physical demands. [Why didn't the rep who found the 4 violations testify????] Husbands added that all the participants were given adequate food and water.
2/04/03 Judge Eyre dropped charges. Although the DA mentioned during the hearing that the state was trying to revoke the program's license based on three other alleged violations, the judge wrote:
"Perhaps nothing in the state's allegations is more glaringly absent than the lack of evidence that [Wardle] had failed to comply with the state Office of Licensing regulations governing youth wilderness programs. Indeed, the evidence presented to the court only serves to establish that Skyline Journey took many more precautions than those provided in similar youth programs."
In a recent interview with The Salt Lake Tribune, Eyre said he did not think Skyline had "done things that would put a heavy burden on these youths to the point you would say it was reckless."
The judge cited the fact that employees had some training, participants were given "plenty of water," and that the group only hiked a short distance. In his ruling, Eyre wrote the hikes were "never of a greater distance than 1.26 miles," although Husbands' report, introduced at the hearing, said Ian hiked about 1.4 miles of a planned three-mile hike on the day he died.
Although Ian was overweight, he did get clearance from a doctor, Eyre said. And the state did not provide proof of the exact temperature, the judge said.
"I've had a lot of experience with troubled youths, and I know that parents when they have a child that is clearly self-destructive, they will do about anything to help them," said Eyre, a former Juab County attorney. "They looked like they were running a good program. They had a satellite phone, two radios, immediate contact with their home base. It clearly was an isolated location, and it took a long time for medical assistance, but they had trained individuals."
Justice was not served.
Kelly Husbands could have told you that Ian?s doctor was not informed properly about the program. That's what he testified to. I feel certain that they made some changes in that procedure after Ian?s death. Perhaps your form was more detailed.
You said: Reporters constantly make errors(such as 4 wardle children all involved)
A reporter didn?t say that, Lee Wardle did.
You said: The other kids were aggeravated because he was holding them back. Had they known he wrer truly ill, I'm sure this wouldn't have happened.
But, haranguing and humiliating him would have been okay if he hadn?t been dying? How might those teens have felt afterward? The regulations say that the group is STOP if anyone can't continue. Now that presents a problem when you're out of water and behind schedule.
And, as for Ian being ?combative?. I have never heard that. Considering the source, I?d have to question that. There were reports of him making ?terrorist threats?. But if that was the case, should he have been with other teens in a wilderness program which is designed to provoked anger?
And I have walked in your shoes. I chose a different path.
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I was not looking for an arguement. I was just stating about how much they had helped our family. Kelly Husbands did tell me that he knew the Wardle's personally, although he did not indicate that they were friends (if they are?). Also the lies about the temp,I had no way of knowing about. That came out after my son departed. It is sad when you call a government agency and do not get the truth. How could I have known? The kids I spoke to liked the program. I made my decision based on the facts I obtained. We are lucky to have had a positive learning experience with no harm done. You said you have been in my shoes and chose to take a different path, would you mind sharing that with me? I was quite desparate at the time and needed a place that my son couldn't run away from. You seem much more informed in this area than I. I knew nothing about any programs for kids prior to my need. Thanks
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On 2004-07-27 21:40:00, Llahsram wrote:
needed a place that my son couldn't run away from.
A private prison, in other words? Ok, then I guess you got what you paid for and should be very happy. Make no mistake about it, nobody--not one human soul who ever lived--enjoys being imprisoned. Never in a million years will any human being like being imprisoned. One of the first things you learn in the Program is to never, ever say a negative thing about the Program. They serve so that we don't have to. They offer to give up their lives so that we can be free. It is, remarkably, their gift to us. And all they ask for in return is that we never send them into harm's way unless it is absolutely necessary. Will they ever trust us again?
Michael More
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If that is how you want to read into this, be my guest. He was headed for prison anyway. He was there two years ago and he still speaks fondly of it. Sorry I can't slam this for you, I am just speaking the truth.
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I've got two teenage girls. One has given me pure hell over the last few years. Speaking as I can from BOTH sides of the fence, let me say that all the "program" did for me was delay the natural learning process. My parents were terrified, just like you and just like I have been. They were fed the same deadinsaneorinjail mantra that's spit out by all of programs. I acted like a good little girl when I was in there and for a while after I got out, but it didn't last. The lessons I "learned" were not my own. They had been forced upon me. For a while I was a true believer, helped me, must have, I was headed for death or jail!!!!! :eek: My parents attempt to "help" me nearly killed me all these years later. The lasting effects of being imprisoned and forced to "conform" are devastating and usually do not show up for years after.
My oldest daughter has given me more sleepless nights than I care to think about, but I am NOT going to alter her journey. We all have our own. All being in the program did was delay all those lessons I was supposed to be learning naturally. Our children are not "ours" to control or mold into what we want. We all want them to be happy, we all have our own idea about what it takes to get there. IMO, denying them the opportunity to learn those lessons when they are supposed to will only force them to do it later in life when it is HIGHLY inappropriate and it ends up being done in small increments so the learning process is dragged out for years, decades sometimes. People don't realize the full devastation of these places until later. When your kid first gets out of course[/b] you, and they are happier....they're behaving like good little children are supposed to aren't they?? It's only later that the damage starts to show.
PTSD....look around these forums. It runs rampant.
P.S. the daughter I speak of is now in nursing school doing pretty well. With guidance, not force, she came around and realized most of what I was trying to teach her. And I'm telling you...letting go and leaving her to her own path was one of the hardest things I have EVER done...bar none.
If you think about why you hate me, you might find that it's not me.
--Antigen
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Llahsram,
I imagine that you don't consider the humiliation and verbal attacks abusive, based on another comment you posted at Fornits describing the 'therapy' your son is currently receiving at elan:
They put the offender in the front of the room and all the kids scream, swear and say degrading things to them. I guess it is to deter you from doing bad things in the first place. I don't like it, I think it is horrible. So mabe this is why they do it. It would keep me in line, I would cry like a baby!
It would only feel sad if it were being done while your son was dying? That is not therapy. You have made numerous comments about your aversion to people 'attacking' you here and using foul language. How does it feel? I hope you do notice the double standard? Perhaps folks here are trying to "deter" you from speaking positively about a program that hurt them. Just a thought.
Regarding the path I chose- Do a search for posts under my name. I don't have time to look that up for you. I would not choose to put my son in an evironment that breeds hostility or total submission. I don't consider that therapy.
And yes, it's a damn shame that parents don't get accurate information from government officials.
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Dear Deborah, As I stated before, I really don't want to debate this. My son decided to live with his alcoholic father at 14 years. Dad didn't make him do homework. Nor did my son have rules. He was also arrested a couple of times. We have rules in our home, they are very fair because I was raised by such strict parents, it made me sneakey. I wanted better for my son. Well, when his father moved away and my son had to come back home. I had a kid that refused to follow any rules. He moved out and lived in a chair at the highway truck stop. He was selling pot to truckers,picking pockets, stealing ang hanging out with a group that were in trouble with the police. In CT when a kid is 16 they have adult rights. The police could not bring him home. I was so desperate. When you are caught between a rock and a hard place, you have to ask for help or be very knowledgeable about your options, which I was not. I had to learn fast. Time was not on my side. I had few choices and I only hope for the best for him. I had him in counciling for years. I tried changing his diet, herbal supplements. You name it, we tried it. So if he gets yelled at once in a while,so be it. Hopefully some day he'll look back and understand why. Everything I did was recomended by his shrink. I did everything in my power to help him. He didn't want help. I needed my son to be alive. Also, i looked up your old posts and could not find what path you chose.
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Just a question---it touches on the "private jail" aspects of this---if your kid had moved out and the police couldn't bring him back, how did he get to Skyline?
Did you hire an escort service to get him and take him, or did you go to the truck stop and pull him into the car, or did he agree to go?
And if he agreed to go, did you tell him the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about what the place was like?
It's private jail if you don't agree to go, but if you give informed consent, it's rehab.
It may be a bad choice of therapy, but full adults make bad choices of medical and psychological therapies all the time.
I'm just curious as to whether it was *his* informed choice or whether force or deception (commission or omission or half-truths counts as deception for this) that got him there.
*I* may think it's a bad choice, but I'm a big believer in letting other people go to hell in their own way.
And that you were apparently lied to about the death that happened there, and who knows if you were otherwise lied to, if he went of his own free will with you telling him what you truly believed and giving him the full information you had to the best of your knowledge, then I can only see it as a risky choice on both your parts that appears to have turned out okay---and I really hope that the appearance is the reality in this case and that he really is fine.
The only people I could blame in that case would be the people who lied to you for whatever they lied about.
If a teen *wants* residential therapy, that's *not* involuntary commitment, and I don't have a problem with it as long as there's informed consent.
I guess I just want it to be a bit like going down and picking up a prescription at your pharmacy---you know what's in it is what's on the label, you know it's been proven safe and effective, and you know there's disclosure in the PDR of all the pertinent risks and contraindications.
I want the industry to have a certain basic quality control so that what a reasonable person would think they're buying is actually what they're getting.
Timoclea
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...but if you give informed consent, it's rehab.
Not once you get there. Michelle Sutton volunteered but once she got there she wasn't even allowed to phone her mother to tell her she was ill.
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At some point, one just has to face the truth. There is no amount of legislation and oversight that is going to protect kids while they are incarcerated.
A recent study in Tx determined that children were FIVE TIMES more likely to be injured or abused in out of home placements such as RTCs and wilderness programs. And that was just a survey of kids in the 'protection' of CPS.
Further, you don't know what kind of twisted person your child will be living with. Example: my 10 year old grandson went for his first week-long camp experience. They aren't christians but his mom wasn't concerned, cause you can trust christians to act with integrity, right.
Wrong. He came to my house immediately after returning. What I learned is that they had a really fun program which he enjoyed. But, they left him terribly distressed and anxious about the whole god thing.
He said, "Gramma they told me that if I die when I'm a kid that I can't have my toys or my XBox in heaven with me."
Good God!! Said this to a 10 year old who has little to no ability to think abstractly. Who knows nothing about religion.
Being an agnostic myself, there was much I wanted to say, but given his age and what he had just been through, and seeing that he wanted to believe in god and that he was good; I assured him that everyone has a different opinion about god, and asked him what he thought about the counselor's comment. With a relaxed grin on his face he said he believed that god would let him have his toys.
I told him I thought so too. That I, and many others did not believe that god was mean. We'll have a deeper philosophical discussion when he's older, I'm sure.
That wasn't the end of it. The counselor told him that in order to go to heaven he must read his bible everyday for the rest of his life.
He had many questions about god and jesus. He later wanted to know if god and jesus were still alive and if they were brothers and who was older. His mother told him that jesus was god's son. He wanted to know who his mother was. And who god's parents were.
That happened in a christian camp. And my grandson was only there for a week and feels safe enough to share and ask questions. Imagine a child in a program for 1-3 years and how many opportunites staff would have to influence their thinking, no matter how well intentioned it was, in an inappropriate and hurtful way.
While I realize that a child can't live in a bubble, it makes no sense to intentionally put them in harm's way by abdicating responsibility to strangers you know absolutely nothing about.[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-07-29 09:55 ]
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Remembering Ian who was killed three years ago today.
Ironic that Brat Camp aired tonight.
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On 2003-10-25 17:05:00, Deborah wrote:
"
kdj,
I hear your frustration, I for one wouldn't consider sending my minor child to strangers, but there are situations in which parents are sold a bill of goods.
"
I have to say i have some feeling for some of the parents who send kids to wildreness programmes, particularly if they are only for the summer. Before i knew what went on in the industry i thought the idea of sending your troubled kid to get away from it all for a little while and spend some time chatting with sympathetic trained adults and getting some exercise seemed a good enough one. Particularly if things were becoming strained at home. It was only when i read more about the punitive atmosphere which some programmes promote & of the lax regulations and series of abuses and deaths that i felt disgusted. I can easily see how an unsuspecting parent who feels that they have done their homework by getting an ed con to "research" could send their kid to such places unwittingly.
I dont excuse what goes on and i will certainly never understand getting an escort service, but I have some sympathy for the parents, particularly those who are made to feel that they are failing as well as for the kids who end up at these places.
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Yes, sympathy for the parents who cant use google and just trustingly hand their kids over to strangers when the whole country collectively knows that these places arent all happy and games :roll:
Speak of 'reform school' or 'institution' to the average person and they think of some nasty place.
Oh Puhlease. As hard as the parents are on thier own kids to be accountable why are we going down the whole path of sugarcoating and spoonfeading sunshine to the reason their children were in those programs and we're all here in the first place?
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Yes, sympathy for the parents who cant use google and just trustingly hand their kids over to strangers when the whole country collectively knows that these places arent all happy and games
Thats just it though. It strikes me that there is as much media promoting programmes as criticising them. The all powerful Dr phil has sent several kids to wilderness programmes. I am guessing more average americans watch him than read the new york times or watch french docs.
I dont doubt that there are many lazy or callous parents who dont want to cope with their kids,and many seem to post on ST but there are some who may get genuinely scared by the agressive marketing campaigns of these programmes & this coupled with recommendations from "professionals" can have a powerful effect on some caring parents. Couple this with a lack of confidence and the pressure of a culture which can have very conservative social sensibilities & i can see how this sort of pressure would have some families think that it is the only choice for their child.
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Oh Please! When did i say Americans don't read? or that they were un productive? Or that their women just stand around barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen? As to your hatred of Gore and "lefties" the only reason why right wingers like PJ or rourke are so damn funny is because none of their ideas have any real merit therefore they make better comedians than social commentators!
In fact it is America, for better & for worse that invented tv & the mass market culture which has taken over the world. The Doctor Phils & Oprahs of the world are treated as gurus by the culture that created them! More americans per capita do watch Dr Phil than read the Times. The french Doco was not screened in American cinemas or on TV (not even PBS)
Moreover the scare campaigns of these places are marketed directly to the easily offended sensibilities of middle america. Are you suggesting that the evangelical bible belt or rural montana(which along with Utah seems to house a lot of these places) is perfectly down with the idea of their kids being lesbians or into wikka? Who dont ovrreact to their kids having the odd beer?
America does have a strong & large element of people with easily offended conservative social values and it invented the ever strong and flourishing Evangelical Christian movement! These programmes look specifically designed to scare the dickens out of such people.
Dont assume that any outsider who criticises any element of American culture is automatically anti american! It is a little prissy for someone who does not like crybaby lefties! :wink:
-
oh ok then. it seems i am the dickhead!
-
"Moreover the scare campaigns of these places are marketed directly to the easily offended sensibilities of middle america."
Do easily offended sensibilities include being upset about your daughter prostituting herself for meth or other drugs? If your kid is on meth and you aren't scared, God help you--and your kid. Most kids at the Montana programs are there because of meth and other hard drugs, not an occasional beer, or their parents' easily offended sensibilities. And many, many of them are girls whose drug habits made them vulnerable to molestation, rape, and beatings. The programs are where they finally feel safe.
"Are you suggesting that the evangelical bible belt or rural montana(which along with Utah seems to house a lot of these places) is perfectly down with the idea of their kids being lesbians or into wikka? Who dont ovrreact to their kids having the odd beer? "
Hard to tell which of these questions shows more ignorance of the local intellect and culture, at least in regard to rural Montana. First of all, very few of the students at Montana programs are from Montana, so it's hardly a matter of friendly neighborhood rednecks out on a witch hunt, carrying off mildly rebellious teens. Second, it's hard to guess which would be more common in western Montana--lesbians, or kids having a few beers. The parents and the cops tend to encourage kids to camp for the evening rather than drive home when there's a kegger, and to please use condoms.
Western Montana is pretty integrated; the local ranchers and loggers live it up of a Friday with visiting bikers, hippies, academic types, tourists, and singles and couples of every stripe and combination. As long as they're "chill," they're welcome.
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So Montana, where programs self-regulate, is reserved for meth addicted teen prostitutes?
That's comforting. :rofl:
-
If your kid had a hardcore meth addiction why would you not seek proper medical treatment with real doctors as opposed to sending you kid to some programme in the middle of nowhere?
If these programmes are not designed to scare middle america then why do so many have lame catch all surveys with questions like:
is your child sexually active?
Do you suspect your child of drinking or "experimenting with drugs?
Does your child have trouble following basic rules?
and the perenial favourites which they all seem to have a variation of
Do you feel your child is susceptable to peer pressure?
Have you noticed a drop in your child's grades?
after ticking the boxes for all of these questions to see what the prognosis was for
WWASPS, Aspen (who seemed to house many programmes in free and easy utah),& whose "video therapist" advised "that it is always worse than you think" without defining what "it" was, Changing winds (located in rural montana) & many others, I found most of them claimed my "child" was at least at moderate risk & I should consider a programme. Of what risk who knows?
Herpes? Being an embarassment to the family? Terminal brattyness? hardcore drug addiction?
Because if it was the first three, by all means send the kid off to be told what an awful person they are for a few months or even years depending on how compliant they are. Especially do this if you are a stepmom & you married dad for his money & not his shitty kids. They can move through a series of levels or everyones favourite euphemism "phases" & if they are really good they can have sugar on their cereal. That will learn em! @ least your friends who have polite well behaved kids dont have to witness the little monster you seem to have raised.
In the event that your kid actually has an addiction or a mental illness which requires a doctor, to quote everybodys favourite Aspen Salesman Dr Phil
"what are you thinking"
-
On 2006-07-03 17:41:00, Pls help wrote:
"If your kid had a hardcore meth addiction why would you not seek proper medical treatment with real doctors as opposed to sending you kid to some programme in the middle of nowhere?
Did it ever occur to you that some parents HAVE tried to coax their kid to get some help?
Kids on drugs are not exactly trustworthy and willing to go to these medical treatment places?
They think what they are doing is "normal" because their blood and soul sucking friends are just like them.
When you think you kid is going to end up dead, most parents would choose the lesser of two evils!
DO you know in many states, young teens have ADULT RIGHTS and cannot be forced to get help?
This is why parents MUST send kids away from their HOME STATE in order for them to get treatment!
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What? an in charge, responsible, firm can do kind of parent cant force a child with a bonafide addiction which is making them ill and threatening their life (And i assume from you post it is genuinely that bad) to a medical specialist who will attempt to make them better & at least be able to diagnose the severity of the problem in a way that some lame internet survey cant.
Yet the same parent has no qualms whatsoever about sending their kid to a lock down facility that claims to treat everything from shitty grades to addiction to parental disrespect, which may or may not have a doctor of any kind on campus. That makes no logical sense!
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I am not really understanding your post, so I will try to explain better.
Where I live, once a person turns 16, they have adult rights. I think we are one of three states like this.
Take this example;
You cannot force anyone to get ANY type of help. Pregnant junkies...the state takes the child away to foster care when born, instead of locking the mom up, so her baby can have a chance at have a drug free birth and an average IQ. Is that OK? No! She has rights.
If you had escorts TAKE HER, to a state where the law is instead 18, She no longer has ADULT rights, is considered a minor, she can't leave and cannot get drugs.
The result, drug free, healthy Mom and Baby.
What would you choose if that were YOUR 16 year old daughter, refusing to get help?
Hmmmm?
Caught between a rock and a hard place.
Does that help you see why someone can send their beloved child to "strangers"?
-
Why are you even trying to reason with Pls Help? I understand your problem. I may be the only person on Fornits that does.
-
If you had escorts take a person who is a legal adult from her home state without her consent, the escorts would be guilty of false imprisonment and kidnapping and should be put in jail.
If this ever actually happened to anyone, it's time to prosecute.
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Even if i was to entertain the notion that having an escort take the kid to another state was ok. Why would it be to a lock down facility which does not specifically diagnose or treat the kids addiction in any medically defined way?
If you felt that desperate to "save your child's life" why would you not move with them to a state with 18 as an adult age & a proper treatment facility where you saw them every day. (even if you had them escorted & followed right behind) i realise that this is uncomfortable and impractical but many of the parents claim having their appaarently addicted kid kidnapped was the hardest thing they ever had to do. i would dispute this. i would say it would be harder for them to move with their kid for a while.
Therefore if there is another way but it is a big pain in the arse for the parents, I dont see that it is logical to say that sending your kid to a lockdown bts is solely becuase of their best interests. It is also somewhat because of the parents best interests. if you feel the state that you are living in does not allow you to "parent" your child then move to one that does!
I can hazard a few guesses as to why a parent sends their kid to such places. Some out of tiredness, some out of fear and some probably because they feel the kid is a shit & a part of them wants to punish the kid for making their lives hard. For this thrid element It is easier to tell themselves that the kid is better off locked away from society than admit that they want to punish them
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Nobody ever takes into account the siblings of the drugged out kid. How fair is it to uproot perfectly happy and content siblings, move them to another state and make them begin again? Life's been hard enough at home with the shit going on with the brother/sister. And, some people just can't up and move(not won't-can't.) That is unrealistic. I've never known anybody that had to resort to escorts but I can understand how one might be tempted in the most extreme of circumstances. Every situation is different.
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i dont doubt that having a child who has a genuine addcition is difficult for the entire family. I also dont necessarily think that some of the families who lock kids up are evil either. But i do think they are nevertheless kidding themselves when they claim that there is no part of them that is doing this for punitive reasons.
It is interesting that the topic of other siblings is raised. I think that if one kid had cancer for example the whole family would see it is a sickness & sacrifices would be made. Because real drug addiction is a medical issue. Doctors diagnose medical issues and the "detox" process is supervised properly. I would imagine that in the case of a pregnant addict this would be especially important.
This makes me wonder if in some cases, the kid is not an addict but just a royal pain that the family is worn out from & therefore wants someone else to fix!
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It's rare that families of cancer victims uproot the entire family. That is what the Ronald McDonald House is for. Bad analogy.
If the kid does not have a genuine addiction, and all other options have been exhausted, then sending them off is a viable option. However, it's only viable if the program has a clean record, the parent has visited the campus, and have had the owners investigated. Most reasonable parents do that. Not all do, but they should.
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On 2006-07-05 15:41:00, Milk Gargling Death Penalty wrote:
"If you had escorts take a person who is a legal adult from her home state without her consent, the escorts would be guilty of false imprisonment and kidnapping and should be put in jail.
If this ever actually happened to anyone, it's time to prosecute."
I had a cop tell me the same thing. Obviously, YOU are NOT a parent! I would cut off a limb for one of my children! I could give a flying piece of crap if I got arrested!
Do you really think there would be a stiff penalty for saving a LIFE?
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On 2006-07-05 14:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am not really understanding your post, so I will try to explain better.
Where I live, once a person turns 16, they have adult rights. I think we are one of three states like this.
Take this example;
You cannot force anyone to get ANY type of help. Pregnant junkies...the state takes the child away to foster care when born, instead of locking the mom up, so her baby can have a chance at have a drug free birth and an average IQ. Is that OK? No! She has rights.
If you had escorts TAKE HER, to a state where the law is instead 18, She no longer has ADULT rights, is considered a minor, she can't leave and cannot get drugs.
The result, drug free, healthy Mom and Baby.
What would you choose if that were YOUR 16 year old daughter, refusing to get help?
Hmmmm?
Caught between a rock and a hard place.
Does that help you see why someone can send their beloved child to "strangers"?"
You were correct when you said, "She has rights." Everything else in your post is bullshit.
In most states, a pregnant minor (or minor parent) is granted full legal power in refusing treatment or transport for treatment for her child and for herself. It would be illegal to transport such a girl either within the State or across State lines without her consent.
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On 2006-07-05 16:08:00, Pls help wrote:
If you felt that desperate to "save your child's life" why would you not move with them to a state with 18 as an adult age & a proper treatment facility where you saw them every day. (even if you had them escorted & followed right behind) i realise that this is uncomfortable and impractical but many of the parents claim having their appaarently addicted kid kidnapped was the hardest thing they ever had to do. i would dispute this. i would say it would be harder for them to move with their kid for a while.
Therefore if there is another way but it is a big pain in the arse for the parents, I dont see that it is logical to say that sending your kid to a lockdown bts is solely becuase of their best interests. It is also somewhat because of the parents best interests. if you feel the state that you are living in does not allow you to "parent" your child then move to one that does!
ARE YOU INSANE? Where would the rest of my family live? Who would pay my mortage, care for our pets, help out MY ELDERLY PARENTS?
What would we do about our jobs?
These are NOT things you can just leave!
How about the little brother? His life has already been adversly affected by the messed up kid.
Then, after totally screwing up the lives of everyone else, we all have moved and my kid splits.
You must be very young to think something like THAT could work.
Do you comprehend, how long it could take to sell a home, secure jobs and actually move? By then, many months have passed.
THINK :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:
By the way, take your foot out of your mouth!
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On 2006-07-05 20:26:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"
On 2006-07-05 14:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am not really understanding your post, so I will try to explain better.
Where I live, once a person turns 16, they have adult rights. I think we are one of three states like this.
Take this example;
You cannot force anyone to get ANY type of help. Pregnant junkies...the state takes the child away to foster care when born, instead of locking the mom up, so her baby can have a chance at have a drug free birth and an average IQ. Is that OK? No! She has rights.
If you had escorts TAKE HER, to a state where the law is instead 18, She no longer has ADULT rights, is considered a minor, she can't leave and cannot get drugs.
The result, drug free, healthy Mom and Baby.
What would you choose if that were YOUR 16 year old daughter, refusing to get help?
Hmmmm?
Caught between a rock and a hard place.
Does that help you see why someone can send their beloved child to "strangers"?"
You were correct when you said, "She has rights." Everything else in your post is bullshit.
In most states, a pregnant minor (or minor parent) is granted full legal power in refusing treatment or transport for treatment for her child and for herself. It would be illegal to transport such a girl either within the State or across State lines without her consent."
So you condone her drug use and potential birth defects to an innocent baby?
BECAUSE "SHE HAS RIGHTS"?
You must be nuts!
-
Excellent point. People who abuse children should not have rights at all.
Your execution is scheduled for tomorrow.
-
On 2006-07-03 17:41:00, Pls help wrote:
"If your kid had a hardcore meth addiction why would you not seek proper medical treatment with real doctors as opposed to sending you kid to some programme in the middle of nowhere?
If these programmes are not designed to scare middle america then why do so many have lame catch all surveys with questions like:
is your child sexually active?
Do you suspect your child of drinking or "experimenting with drugs?
Does your child have trouble following basic rules?
and the perenial favourites which they all seem to have a variation of
Do you feel your child is susceptable to peer pressure?
Have you noticed a drop in your child's grades?
after ticking the boxes for all of these questions to see what the prognosis was for
WWASPS, Aspen (who seemed to house many programmes in free and easy utah),& whose "video therapist" advised "that it is always worse than you think" without defining what "it" was, Changing winds (located in rural montana) & many others, I found most of them claimed my "child" was at least at moderate risk & I should consider a programme. Of what risk who knows?
Herpes? Being an embarassment to the family? Terminal brattyness? hardcore drug addiction?
Because if it was the first three, by all means send the kid off to be told what an awful person they are for a few months or even years depending on how compliant they are. Especially do this if you are a stepmom & you married dad for his money & not his shitty kids. They can move through a series of levels or everyones favourite euphemism "phases" & if they are really good they can have sugar on their cereal. That will learn em! @ least your friends who have polite well behaved kids dont have to witness the little monster you seem to have raised.
In the event that your kid actually has an addiction or a mental illness which requires a doctor, to quote everybodys favourite Aspen Salesman Dr Phil
"what are you thinking""
Meth addictions have different levels. If the person is snorting, it's one thing. Smoking is worse. Injecting is bottom-line dangerous shit, and the addiction is far more harrowing. Most programs are reluctant to take IV drug users for that reason. But still, you're assuming (again): Any kid in trouble must be mentally ill. That's just not true.
For most of the kids in alternative programs, the drug use is part of a behavior pattern. If the behavior and its reasons are not addressed, then de-tox and CDC programs are useless. They also tend to be ineffective because they run 28 days, regardless of results. In addition, they can cost $30,000 for that one month.
You also assume "middle America" is stupid, but that's your problem, I guess. The questions you cite as designed to "scare" them are standard questions on all apps for all forms of treatment. Do you think the doctors and therapists shouldn't know about problems in school, drug use, etc? How could you try to work with a kid whose background and behaviors are a mystery?
Assuming again . . . so the picture you entertain is kids having it hammered into their heads that they're awful people? It astounds me that you seem to endorse that, but you still don't get what goes on at the alternative programs.
Contrary to all the hype, most programs are trying to show the kids how valuable they are by holding them to a standard and insisting they start practicing some self-respect. It's okay to challenge kids, you know; they don't need someone patting them on the head and teaching them how vulnerable and powerless they are. They need someone to point out that they're capable and powerful, and teach them to develop that in a positive way.
You really should consider visiting a few of these places. Every one of your posts is filled with ignorance and assumptions.
-
On 2006-07-06 09:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-07-03 17:41:00, Pls help wrote:
"If your kid had a hardcore meth addiction why would you not seek proper medical treatment with real doctors as opposed to sending you kid to some programme in the middle of nowhere?
If these programmes are not designed to scare middle america then why do so many have lame catch all surveys with questions like:
is your child sexually active?
Do you suspect your child of drinking or "experimenting with drugs?
Does your child have trouble following basic rules?
and the perenial favourites which they all seem to have a variation of
Do you feel your child is susceptable to peer pressure?
Have you noticed a drop in your child's grades?
after ticking the boxes for all of these questions to see what the prognosis was for
WWASPS, Aspen (who seemed to house many programmes in free and easy utah),& whose "video therapist" advised "that it is always worse than you think" without defining what "it" was, Changing winds (located in rural montana) & many others, I found most of them claimed my "child" was at least at moderate risk & I should consider a programme. Of what risk who knows?
Herpes? Being an embarassment to the family? Terminal brattyness? hardcore drug addiction?
Because if it was the first three, by all means send the kid off to be told what an awful person they are for a few months or even years depending on how compliant they are. Especially do this if you are a stepmom & you married dad for his money & not his shitty kids. They can move through a series of levels or everyones favourite euphemism "phases" & if they are really good they can have sugar on their cereal. That will learn em! @ least your friends who have polite well behaved kids dont have to witness the little monster you seem to have raised.
In the event that your kid actually has an addiction or a mental illness which requires a doctor, to quote everybodys favourite Aspen Salesman Dr Phil
"what are you thinking""
Meth addictions have different levels. If the person is snorting, it's one thing. Smoking is worse. Injecting is bottom-line dangerous shit, and the addiction is far more harrowing. Most programs are reluctant to take IV drug users for that reason. But still, you're assuming (again): Any kid in trouble must be mentally ill. That's just not true.
For most of the kids in alternative programs, the drug use is part of a behavior pattern. If the behavior and its reasons are not addressed, then de-tox and CDC programs are useless. They also tend to be ineffective because they run 28 days, regardless of results. In addition, they can cost $30,000 for that one month.
You also assume "middle America" is stupid, but that's your problem, I guess. The questions you cite as designed to "scare" them are standard questions on all apps for all forms of treatment. Do you think the doctors and therapists shouldn't know about problems in school, drug use, etc? How could you try to work with a kid whose background and behaviors are a mystery?
Assuming again . . . so the picture you entertain is kids having it hammered into their heads that they're awful people? It astounds me that you seem to endorse that, but you still don't get what goes on at the alternative programs.
Contrary to all the hype, most programs are trying to show the kids how valuable they are by holding them to a standard and insisting they start practicing some self-respect. It's okay to challenge kids, you know; they don't need someone patting them on the head and teaching them how vulnerable and powerless they are. They need someone to point out that they're capable and powerful, and teach them to develop that in a positive way.
You really should consider visiting a few of these places. Every one of your posts is filled with ignorance and assumptions. "
Yeah, right - ANON, maybe YOU ought to visit a few of theses over-crowded Behavior Modification warehouses and see for yourself just how wrong you are about what really goes on in these places. It's all about teaching kids to suspend their critical thinking skills and jump through hoops like trained rats. Reward and Punishment. Real productive shit, eh? Like parents can't do this themselves at home and without stripping kids of their dignity?
You are an ignorant jackass. Kids don't need programs, they need parents whose values and beliefs don't include abusing their kids by proxxy.
:flame:
-
Pls Help, it is astounding that just a few weeks ago you had a brother who was considering the placement of your young, young niece at WWASP Majestic Ranch, right? Now, you live in Australian YET you attempt to post like the ultimate authority on every program, as if you have insight into every parent in the U.S. with your judgemental ravings. You don't know shit, lady.
-
On 2006-07-06 10:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-07-06 09:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-07-03 17:41:00, Pls help wrote:
"If your kid had a hardcore meth addiction why would you not seek proper medical treatment with real doctors as opposed to sending you kid to some programme in the middle of nowhere?
If these programmes are not designed to scare middle america then why do so many have lame catch all surveys with questions like:
is your child sexually active?
Do you suspect your child of drinking or "experimenting with drugs?
Does your child have trouble following basic rules?
and the perenial favourites which they all seem to have a variation of
Do you feel your child is susceptable to peer pressure?
Have you noticed a drop in your child's grades?
after ticking the boxes for all of these questions to see what the prognosis was for
WWASPS, Aspen (who seemed to house many programmes in free and easy utah),& whose "video therapist" advised "that it is always worse than you think" without defining what "it" was, Changing winds (located in rural montana) & many others, I found most of them claimed my "child" was at least at moderate risk & I should consider a programme. Of what risk who knows?
Herpes? Being an embarassment to the family? Terminal brattyness? hardcore drug addiction?
Because if it was the first three, by all means send the kid off to be told what an awful person they are for a few months or even years depending on how compliant they are. Especially do this if you are a stepmom & you married dad for his money & not his shitty kids. They can move through a series of levels or everyones favourite euphemism "phases" & if they are really good they can have sugar on their cereal. That will learn em! @ least your friends who have polite well behaved kids dont have to witness the little monster you seem to have raised.
In the event that your kid actually has an addiction or a mental illness which requires a doctor, to quote everybodys favourite Aspen Salesman Dr Phil
"what are you thinking""
Meth addictions have different levels. If the person is snorting, it's one thing. Smoking is worse. Injecting is bottom-line dangerous shit, and the addiction is far more harrowing. Most programs are reluctant to take IV drug users for that reason. But still, you're assuming (again): Any kid in trouble must be mentally ill. That's just not true.
For most of the kids in alternative programs, the drug use is part of a behavior pattern. If the behavior and its reasons are not addressed, then de-tox and CDC programs are useless. They also tend to be ineffective because they run 28 days, regardless of results. In addition, they can cost $30,000 for that one month.
You also assume "middle America" is stupid, but that's your problem, I guess. The questions you cite as designed to "scare" them are standard questions on all apps for all forms of treatment. Do you think the doctors and therapists shouldn't know about problems in school, drug use, etc? How could you try to work with a kid whose background and behaviors are a mystery?
Assuming again . . . so the picture you entertain is kids having it hammered into their heads that they're awful people? It astounds me that you seem to endorse that, but you still don't get what goes on at the alternative programs.
Contrary to all the hype, most programs are trying to show the kids how valuable they are by holding them to a standard and insisting they start practicing some self-respect. It's okay to challenge kids, you know; they don't need someone patting them on the head and teaching them how vulnerable and powerless they are. They need someone to point out that they're capable and powerful, and teach them to develop that in a positive way.
You really should consider visiting a few of these places. Every one of your posts is filled with ignorance and assumptions. "
Yeah, right - ANON, maybe YOU ought to visit a few of theses over-crowded Behavior Modification warehouses and see for yourself just how wrong you are about what really goes on in these places. It's all about teaching kids to suspend their critical thinking skills and jump through hoops like trained rats. Reward and Punishment. Real productive shit, eh? Like parents can't do this themselves at home and without stripping kids of their dignity?
You are an ignorant jackass. Kids don't need programs, they need parents whose values and beliefs don't include abusing their kids by proxxy.
:flame: "
If I say black and you say white, I guess we can assume one of us is a jack-ass. But it may be we're talking about two different things. I've been to behavior mod facilities--as a student, a parent, and an employee. Some are wonderful places, and some suck out loud.
I don't feel that my critical thinking skills are impaired by my experience, and I've never been good at the hoop thing. I do tend to be extremely skeptical, buying very few sensationalist stories. Sometimes the human psyche thrills to stories like that, but the sort of unsupported stories I've heard, most of which are counter to my own experience, just don't impress me.
I'm suggesting that folks who want to be authorities on the subject try to gain perspective based on broader experience.
-
Who let the trolls out?
Get the fuck back in your God damn hole.
-
On 2006-07-06 15:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-07-06 10:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-07-06 09:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-07-03 17:41:00, Pls help wrote:
"If your kid had a hardcore meth addiction why would you not seek proper medical treatment with real doctors as opposed to sending you kid to some programme in the middle of nowhere?
If these programmes are not designed to scare middle america then why do so many have lame catch all surveys with questions like:
is your child sexually active?
Do you suspect your child of drinking or "experimenting with drugs?
Does your child have trouble following basic rules?
and the perenial favourites which they all seem to have a variation of
Do you feel your child is susceptable to peer pressure?
Have you noticed a drop in your child's grades?
after ticking the boxes for all of these questions to see what the prognosis was for
WWASPS, Aspen (who seemed to house many programmes in free and easy utah),& whose "video therapist" advised "that it is always worse than you think" without defining what "it" was, Changing winds (located in rural montana) & many others, I found most of them claimed my "child" was at least at moderate risk & I should consider a programme. Of what risk who knows?
Herpes? Being an embarassment to the family? Terminal brattyness? hardcore drug addiction?
Because if it was the first three, by all means send the kid off to be told what an awful person they are for a few months or even years depending on how compliant they are. Especially do this if you are a stepmom & you married dad for his money & not his shitty kids. They can move through a series of levels or everyones favourite euphemism "phases" & if they are really good they can have sugar on their cereal. That will learn em! @ least your friends who have polite well behaved kids dont have to witness the little monster you seem to have raised.
In the event that your kid actually has an addiction or a mental illness which requires a doctor, to quote everybodys favourite Aspen Salesman Dr Phil
"what are you thinking""
Meth addictions have different levels. If the person is snorting, it's one thing. Smoking is worse. Injecting is bottom-line dangerous shit, and the addiction is far more harrowing. Most programs are reluctant to take IV drug users for that reason. But still, you're assuming (again): Any kid in trouble must be mentally ill. That's just not true.
For most of the kids in alternative programs, the drug use is part of a behavior pattern. If the behavior and its reasons are not addressed, then de-tox and CDC programs are useless. They also tend to be ineffective because they run 28 days, regardless of results. In addition, they can cost $30,000 for that one month.
You also assume "middle America" is stupid, but that's your problem, I guess. The questions you cite as designed to "scare" them are standard questions on all apps for all forms of treatment. Do you think the doctors and therapists shouldn't know about problems in school, drug use, etc? How could you try to work with a kid whose background and behaviors are a mystery?
Assuming again . . . so the picture you entertain is kids having it hammered into their heads that they're awful people? It astounds me that you seem to endorse that, but you still don't get what goes on at the alternative programs.
Contrary to all the hype, most programs are trying to show the kids how valuable they are by holding them to a standard and insisting they start practicing some self-respect. It's okay to challenge kids, you know; they don't need someone patting them on the head and teaching them how vulnerable and powerless they are. They need someone to point out that they're capable and powerful, and teach them to develop that in a positive way.
You really should consider visiting a few of these places. Every one of your posts is filled with ignorance and assumptions. "
Yeah, right - ANON, maybe YOU ought to visit a few of theses over-crowded Behavior Modification warehouses and see for yourself just how wrong you are about what really goes on in these places. It's all about teaching kids to suspend their critical thinking skills and jump through hoops like trained rats. Reward and Punishment. Real productive shit, eh? Like parents can't do this themselves at home and without stripping kids of their dignity?
You are an ignorant jackass. Kids don't need programs, they need parents whose values and beliefs don't include abusing their kids by proxxy.
:flame: "
If I say black and you say white, I guess we can assume one of us is a jack-ass. But it may be we're talking about two different things. I've been to behavior mod facilities--as a student, a parent, and an employee. Some are wonderful places, and some suck out loud.
I don't feel that my critical thinking skills are impaired by my experience, and I've never been good at the hoop thing. I do tend to be extremely skeptical, buying very few sensationalist stories. Sometimes the human psyche thrills to stories like that, but the sort of unsupported stories I've heard, most of which are counter to my own experience, just don't impress me.
I'm suggesting that folks who want to be authorities on the subject try to gain perspective based on broader experience. "
Were you involuntarily committed into a program? If so, how old were you at the time, what is the name of the program and how long were you there?
How many kids do you have and how old are they?
Do you own a program? Work for one? Sell them? Or all three?
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On 2006-07-05 21:05:00, Milk Gargling Death Penalty wrote:
"Excellent point. People who abuse children should not have rights at all.
Your execution is scheduled for tomorrow."
Yes, YOU are a true idiot!
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Contrary to all the hype, most programs are trying to show the kids how valuable they are by holding them to a standard and insisting they start practicing some self-respect. It's okay to challenge kids, you know; they don't need someone patting them on the head and teaching them how vulnerable and powerless they are. They need someone to point out that they're capable and powerful, and teach them to develop that in a positive way.
Okay, I'll bite. Explain to me how "holding them to a standard and insisting they start practicing some self-respect" makes someone feel valued and gives them self-esteem?
I don't think it does. It's the chicken and egg thing. I think if a child has good self-esteem by being treated properly in the first place, they will choose to adhere to their own good standards and have self-respect. What you (and forced programs) suggest is that you have the right to impose your own standards on other people and that by doing so you will force them to have self-respect and self-esteem. That makes no sense to me, nor is it an ethical approach to changing peoples' behavior.
Yes, it is okay (even necessary) to challenge kids. There is a huge difference in presenting a challenge and having someone accept it; as opposed to forcing some arbritrary task or behavior on someone in the guise of challenging them.
Your self-righteous cliches won't work here. Do you even think you made this crap up? I've heard this all before hundreds of times from people just like you who believe instead of think.
Oh, and I don't recall ever reading on Fornit's that the best approach towards helping kids is to pat them on the head and teach them how powerless they are. I do think lots of hugs and affection would work wonders.
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WEll, so anon has been there as a student, A PARENT AND EMPLOYEE. I think that says it all, the parent and employee part anyway.
BTW when you kidnap, restrain and force a kid into being reprogrammed you are absolutely shoving their faces in the fact that they are POWERLESS and VULNERABLE. They certainly are not "powerful" and "capable" enough to refuse to take part. And how does humiliating a child and violating their human rights make them feel "valuable"? except as a money source for the "schools" and staff ( I won't degrade the word "teacher" by using it here)? And to WHOSE and WHAT standard is it ok to force kids to be held to? :roll:
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Just curious but if anon was there as a student and then a parent didn't s/he learn enough as a student to keep from having to send his/her own kid to a TBS? Curious as to which program this was and why s/he felt compelled to send the kid there.
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On 2006-07-06 10:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Pls Help, it is astounding that just a few weeks ago you had a brother who was considering the placement of your young, young niece at WWASP Majestic Ranch, right? Now, you live in Australian YET you attempt to post like the ultimate authority on every program, as if you have insight into every parent in the U.S. with your judgemental ravings. You don't know shit, lady."
I dont attepmt to be an authority any more than anyone else on this site. But i have spent the last month or so looking at a varitey of programmes and speaking to people that have gone or reading the posts on struggling teens of those who send their kids to programmes. The range of problems that kids went for was pretty broad and at times random.
Perhaps you can enlighten me with the names of some programmes which do not promote themselves as having "behavoural modification". Perhaps you can tell me why a country which according to the new York times has a teen pregnancy rate which has been dropping steadily for the last 25 years , and whose kids are statistically no worse behaved than their counter parts in any other oecd country needs such programmes?
If the mainstream media does not have any influence on middle America then why is the common Oprah/ Dr Phil headline "A show no parent can miss" Do these shows rate really highly because nobody in thhe whole country watches them? I know people do in Australia. Perhaps they only survive because of the overseas market.
How many programmes have a significant # of pregnant girls in them anyway? Why is there such a large amount of websites which tell parents before the kid sets foot in the door of the place that their kid manupulates & lies. This sounds remarkably defensive for a place which is all about building the kid up & making them "better".
If a person can tick a # of boxes on an internet survey & be told that thier child is a moderate risk to high risk how is this not a scare tactic? Can you honestly say that real therapists would recommend a progamme based on moodyness, inability to follow household rules, "suspicion" of alcohol or drug use & slipping grades? i would hope not.
I get the feeling that the anon/s who wears a bag but keeps accusing me of being anti american & ignorant just does not like the idea that some outsider can dare be arrogant enough to ask these questions. I am also sorry if you feel judged by me. I note that many of your more robust countrymen like three springs and nilanthic can participate in a fairly passionate & fiesty debate without needing to cry about being judged or claiming that only an American can have any insight into or knowlege of the industry. [ This Message was edited by: Pls help on 2006-07-07 03:42 ]