Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 16, 2003, 09:23:00 AM
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ISAC has put a new board for those that do not choose read , listen or tolerate all the attacks that place on this board.
If you are interested in a constructive discussion area go to.
http://www.isaccorp.com/forums/index.php (http://www.isaccorp.com/forums/index.php)
At least their is an alternative to this board.
Thanks ISAC.
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good for them
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ISAC is probably worried about getting caught up in the legal suit between PURE and WWASP especially now given the connection that exists between Sue & Marti.
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Well, these "slash and dash" attacks didn't accomplish much on Fornits, so maybe it's best these folks pick up their marbles and move on to some other forum.
:wave:
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I'm on my way.....especially if there are no Carey's and Ginger's......I'm ready for some inteligent conversation instead of all the bashing. I guess now the major topic on this bs board will be Sue & Marti....imagine that! PURE & ISAAC unite! That will be the next accusations...what bullshit....adios Ginger ::soapbox::
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Yes, you should move to another board, one that does not allow for opinions other than those that mirror yours. Doesn't that sound familar to you...kinda like the WWASP BBS, the one that you so adamantly oppose?
You people should practice what you preach.
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I disagree with the above post.
Ginger actually has first hand knowledge of program life (true is was a more extreme program than what exists today).
The problem here is people posting about PURE, WWASP, Program in general, any program, etc
That never actually lived at one, visited one, etc.
Go ahead and run away when it gets sticky.
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Have lots of good fun imagining enemies of PURE, folks!
I can say that, while it wasn't exactly enjoyable watching how you operate, it was enlightening for some.
If you ever care to come back for some intelligent discussion about shutting down public funding and support for forced behavior mod or to explain how PURE is completely different from WWASP, you know you're always welcome, just like anyone.
Oh, and to all those who have been very upset by some of the goings on here recently and who've asked me, with fully good intentions, to make it stop, are you glad I didn't go ban happy now? I am. See, this is how a free market in ideas works. Sure, anyone can say anything here, the First Amendment reigns supreme. But no one goes unchallenged, either. As soon as the discussion shifted from all these outlandish slams on Carey to actual facts and quotes from the PURE website, well, some folks can dish it out but they can't take it.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
--Edmund Burke
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still my hero
This board will have a broader view than just PURE vs. WWASP. I'm excited for change.
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Ginger I appreciate your respecting the rights of all posters on this board and I appreciate the fact that you don't try to CONTROL people's thoughts and ideas. The problem with PURE much like those they bash, WWASP in particular, is that they want to "control" the minds and the behaviors of others.
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Hurah fun for all on a new board with actually constructive talk and friendship
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On 2003-10-16 14:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hurah fun for all on a new board with actually constructive talk and friendship"
Alas, yet another program vet with a damaged sense of irony.
If All it takes is an infinite number of monkeys with type writers, then how come there's no Shakespeare coming out of AOL?
-- Anonymous
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It'll be interesting to see how soon the attacks begin on the ISAC board
::argue:: :rofl:
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ya know it is late I have insomina and I am in a nasty mood,
so I will continue to do what I always do speak my mind.
Attacks, fuck it I don't give a shit, I am always up for a good debate, as long as there is some debate and it does not seem like a bunch of 12 year olds got to the computer and had a pissing contest, I can curse, well, shit I am from NY we start making up new ones when we run out, or get sick of the old insults we have be flinging around BUT even that doesn't bother me
what really really does is the anon bullshit
I say stuff here I know people don't like but it is my opinion, my opinion and I am going to stand behind it. What it says to me is that even you do not believe what you are saying if you cannot put your name on it.
you may blast carey but he owns his thoughts
you blast Ginger but she gives you an open forum to express just how much you think she tries to control what people think.
if that where the case you would not be posting here. You would not be posting under anon. Yeah she is a big ole control freak.
I don't blame us all for being fucked up and of course we are going to argue.
We are trained to argue with each other remember?
Trained to yell and tear each other down. Divide and conquer.
What if those fuckers are reading this now and seeing the seeds of dissent still growing,
togther we cannot lose, like in group I *think* sometimes we could have overthrown them if we just weren't so divided.
they were not stupid, just fucking evilThe college idealists who fill the ranks of the environmental movement seem willing to do absolutely anything to save the biosphere, except take science courses and learn something about it.
--P.J. O'Rourke
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On 2003-10-17 00:00:00, kaydeejaded wrote:
"ya know it is late I have insomina and I am in a nasty mood,
Hey, me too! But I'm not in a bad mood. If I were laying upstairs listening to my lover snore away while alternately staring at the ceiling and checking my eyelids for cracks, well then I'd be in a bad mood. But down here with you and Mr. Yuengling for company? :wave:
--quote
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hehe I am switching between here, my sociology paper, studying for American Government midterm (puke) and freecell
mostly here and freecell :wave: Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.
--Winston Churchill
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What do they tell you about American government? I'm surprised they use the term "American". I thought we were all politically incorrect, only USA was an acceptable term these days.
I'm probably going to go check my eyelids for cracks again. Ya just neeeeeever know!Boundary, n. In political geography, an imaginary line between two nations, separating the imaginary rights of one from the imaginary rights of another.
-- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
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You know, I found John Bradshaw's books very helpful in getting my head back together from various stuff in my childhood (which did NOT include a BM program, thank Ghu).
One of the things he's really big on is "healthy boundaries."
When you talk about people tearing each other apart, like in group, I can see some of what happened to all of you. Even if you went in with healthy boundaries and it was your parents who were the fruit loops, your personal psychological boundaries were forciblly torn down in group. You probably came out alternating mostly randomly between *no* boundaries, and *closed* boundaries.
I would encourage Carey and any of you guys who got upset about the whole Carey flap to borrow his books from the library or buy copies.
One of the most vital steps to fixing what was done to you is to relearn what healthy boundaries are, so you aren't spending every minute having to guess at what's normal, and to rebuild those healthy boundaries---or build them for the first time, if you've never had them.
The programs probably taught you little or nothing about healthy personal psychological boundaries, because all their mind control techniques required forcibly tearing down whatever boundaries you did have.
Getting healthy personal boundaries back will go a whole hell of a lot of the way towards restoring your ability to interact with and form healthy relationships with non-program people.
One of the things one of my profs said in criticizing "Sensitivity Training" programs was that they had done a lot of harm to a lot of people's minds by stirring up all sorts of crap in them that they had no idea how to resolve.
That sounds to me a lot like what the programs do, and why they have so many psychological casualties.
The real military tears people down in boot camp and builds them back up into soldiers, BUT the real military has had thousands of years of practice, in various incarnations, at rebuilding what they tore down----and a completely, brutally objective way for sorting the programs that rebuilt recruits into good soldiers from those that left them non-functional wrecks----Combat.
The programs tear people down and *try* (we hope--the less bad ones try, anyway) to build them back up into an "acceptable" persona. But they don't have any quality control comparable to the Combat the military has to deal with---so they don't get that feedback loop as to what works and what doesn't going on. They don't have any controlled follow up *at all* to show what they're rebuilding, long term, or how well or badly they're doing it.
The other thing the military does that the programs don't do is that the military flushes out the section 8 individuals before or during Basic as unsuited to be broken down and built back into soldiers---the military knows the limitations of their techniques.
The programs *select* for section 8 individuals and think "break them down, build them up" efforts will work on such individuals. There is no objective evidence from anywhere in human history to indicate that this approach is likely to be effective.
So anyway, you end up with a lot of people who've been broken down, but not built back up very effectively at all. Some, like Ginger, have done a pretty good job of rebuilding themselves.
Others, like those snarling back and forth over the Carey thing (among other things to snarl about)---well, it's like you don't have a very good psychological sense of what you can control and what you can't, or where you end and the other guy begins. Boundary issues.
The Bradshaw books contain safe, sane, positive, helpful techniques for improving those issues. They are *very* *very* good books for how you take yourself, as a human being that's broken down in some ways, and build yourself back up into a you you can like better and be more comfortable and happy being.
If, after reading them, you decide you want or need to chooose some sort of therapy for something, their information also gives you a good yardstick for sorting out a therapist that you can trust to be able to help you rebuild your damaged bits from the herd of therapists that might not be as good.
If you hadn't figured it out, I'm a big believer in therapeutic solutions that keep the patient in the driver's seat with a high degree of control and fully informed choice.
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WWASPS uses the Bradshaw Model - just an FYI
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Damn, Anon! That's about the nicest thing anyone's said to me in a long time. Thanks!
On 2003-10-17 11:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WWASPS uses the Bradshaw Model - just an FYI"
That's an excellent reason for any WWASP survivor to go and look into what the man might really have to say and to offer. Knowing what I do about WWASP from the individuals I've met and corresponded with, I'd bet dollars to doughnut holes they deliver a very warped and distorted version of those concepts.
Straight started giving an altered form of Congative Behavioral Therapy called Rational Self Annalysis and Rational Self Therapy to pre-trainees for staff in around `82, I think.
I loved it! It was all intellectual and logical and sensible. I had not been permitted to 'intellectualize' because staff had decided that intellectualizing was just an affectation of my drug pathology. And we were not permitted to share our new knowledge and skills with the rest of group or our own newcomers or fosters or anything. It was all top secret. So, for that hour or two a week, the carpet room became a sanctuary for sanity and reason.
However, when they finally did start filtering a little of the RSA/RST, it was a warped reflection, no, just a shadow of what I'd just learned to describe. Instead of using the perception->thought->attitude->action diagram to help people better understand their motivations and make better choices, they used it as a catch all indictment for any unsanctioned word or deed.
Say a kid gets set back or otherwise punished for something that clearly was beyond his control. He get's mad, right? Who wouldn't? But you're not allowed to get mad about the dictates of the high holy clerics. So we would just rip into the kid for having the "bad thoughts" and "bad attitudes" resulting in unsanctioned anger. Then right back to the old script about his being an ungrateful, spoiled, inconsiderate sponging worthless....
Same thing happened with the term "Cognative Dissonance" (might even have come from RSA, I can't remember for sure)
According to the 16yo leading the rap, CD was a manifestation of a flaw in the individual. It was a bad feeling in response to positive change just cause you weren't used to the new way of doing things.
Years later, I found out what it really means and it helped me a LOT in understanding that bit of slight of mind. CD is really that feeling that you get when things just don't add up; when you're met with two or more contradictory beliefs but you can't quite put a finger on or articulate the contradiction. That tends to happen a LOT under the conditions present in the Program.
So I would highly recomend to anyone who's an intellectual perv like me and who benefits from intellectualizeing issues to go and read up on some of the material used as underpinning for your particular program. It might be very enlightening.
I told all four that there are going to be some times where we don't
agree with each other, but that's OK. If this were a dictatorship, it
would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator.
--GW Büsh, CNN.com, December 18, 2000
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I also really liked the RSA/RST. It made me feel empowered. At that time we had some cool staff that were pretty helpful. But, the first program that I was in I just couldn't figure out why they kept saying share your feelings because as soon as you shared anything that resembled anger you got sat down. And if you got an attitude with staff, you got a circle of people around you screaming in your face with spit flying everywhere and when you tried to wipe the spit off your face you got restrained. I personally just left the spit there. I was terrified of physical violence. How could they think it would be possible to be honest when you could only talk about what they deemed acceptable? After a while I just quit talking. I did what they told me to do because I was scared and did not want to be restrained, but I did not talk for half the time I was there. I still have serious issues with confrontation and angry people. It is also hard for me to say when I am angry.
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Buddy, they expected us to be "honest" according to a different definition of the word. "Honesty", by this other definition, meant just exactly what you just said; saying exactly what you were allowed and required to say.
A free people ought...to be armed...
George Washington, 1790
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:nworthy:
Quote: :exclaim:
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Regarding Honesty, it has nothing to do with honesty and everything to do with conditioning the teen to think and speak the program's language.
My son was asked what was up for him in group. He said he was worried about his older brother, rightfully so.
"Counselor" punished him for lying. He went on restriction (limitied calories, no contact with peers, no reading except for school work, extra work detail that went on until 9pm) until he could be "honest".
He had figured out the game so he made up a lie (what he thought the counselor might want to hear) and was released from restriction.
My son's "honest" response was labled a "lie" because he failed to say what it was she wanted to hear.
This is in no way "therapy" or therapeutic. It is indeed brainwashing.
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On 2003-10-17 11:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WWASPS uses the Bradshaw Model - just an FYI"
Nope. They may use what they've mutilated it into, but they obviously didn't understand what they've read (or just didn't want to do it), because Bradshaw is pretty damned emphatic about a the patient being in control of his/her own treatment and pretty damned emphatic that physical force to change behavior sucks rocks.
WWASPS may have taken what Bradshaw said and grabbed bits of it as jargon and perverted it, but if they'd understood and were practicing what he said, they wouldn't be locking kids up away from their families and inducing Stockholm Syndrome and using other coercive mind control techniques to make them toe the line.
Just because a rapist takes and perverts sex doesn't make what he does lovemaking, and doesn't make lovemaking bad, harmful, or worthless.
Restrictive boarding schools that use isolation and torture (kneeling for 12 hrs a day is torture) are rapists of the mind.
Just because rapists of the mind exist doesn't mean genuine healing to return somebody to the kind of psychological health and sanity that lets them form happy, healthy, long-term, positive human relationships with normal, non-program people isn't possible.
Healing IS possible. And the real Bradshaw books, with the patient in control, without force or coercion, are a good, solid aid to personal healing.
However, I know from experience that after rape there are problems with getting back on the horse. I imagine that after mind-rape it would be really hard to get past what was done to you enough to use GOOD mental health advice without either rejecting it outright or falling into program jargon.
Another thing those bastards have to answer for.
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On 2003-10-16 06:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"ISAC has put a new board for those that do not choose read , listen or tolerate all the attacks that place on this board.
If you are interested in a constructive discussion area go to.
http://www.isaccorp.com/forums/index.php (http://www.isaccorp.com/forums/index.php)
At least their is an alternative to this board.
Thanks ISAC. "
?? This link doesn't work ??