Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 15, 2003, 08:22:00 AM
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How about asking your boys about how they feel about your sharing with WWASP attorneys?
Would they want any of their friends sent away to WWASP?
Your boys are out - do you care about the ones left behind?
what if your actions caused some who may desperately want out to have to stay- maybe years- would that bother you?
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Idea for Anon.....
How about EVERYBODY share EVERYTHING they know and have? We can bring to the table all information, all contacts, all pictures, reports, you know, everything that has anything to do with the industry. Then parents, programs, government agencies and all others who make decisions for these teens will be able to determine what the truth really is. We can then try and sort out the reality from the imaginary. Maybe court is the only way in which all will come to light.
One more thing, for those who have read the thread in which the first 5 digits of my social security number was given, it was the correct 5 digits. The only person who I have given that number to who has anything to do with what has taken place over the past year was Steve Bozak, Sue Scheff's friend. What does that tell me? It tells me alot. What does it tell you? I don't know. One more thing in that thread, there seems to be a threat given which made reference to ISAC investigating me. What does that tell me? Alot. What does that tell you? I don't know. ISAC may have removed Sue's link from their site, but have they remained in contact? I don't know. Maybe. I am sure phone records may be able to tell us the answer to that question.
I do not take to being bullied people. Dundee tried to bully me and make me complaisant. What did that tell me? That told me they had something to hide. What does that tell you? I don't know.
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some good ideas but it's where you share it all that's important and actually it's been done but in the offices of those that have an ability to change/influence public policy and encourage regulations, controls, and insist on using the protections we already have to ensure that teens are not subject to practices that may damage them.
That's not on WWASP's agenda that I've seen.
It is also not on the agenda of the associations of educational consultants. They've continued to prefer self regulation which IMO hasn't been working so great - so sharing with those groups I would not do.
How is sharing with WWASP helping to further regulate this industry? and how is helping to ensure that children do not experience what your boys did?
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some good ideas but it's where you share it all that's important
Share it with everyone. No one group of people should determine who information is to be shared with.
How is sharing with WWASP helping to further regulate this industry? and how is helping to ensure that children do not experience what your boys did?
Once again, it is ultimately the parents responsibility. They can start by going through the "healing process" / "treatment process" with their kids, not separtate and not miles apart.
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Carey,
Information was shared with you. More than once. Apparently ou have choosen to give it to WWASP and their attorneys.
You have proven yourself to be untrustworthy,selfserving,down rigth dangerousto the bigger cause. It appears in your need for reconition you have no boundaries.
Correct me if I am wrong in stating you gave confidential information to WWASP's attorneys.
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The problem with "it's all up to the parents" ..
is parents don't always make the best decisions for their children...that's why every state has child abuse laws.
if you're for a "buyer beware" market- that's what we already have.
it's the kids that are the losers. Without strong advocates they are lost and with out new regulations and standards it can be dangerous for some....
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The problem with "it's all up to the parents" ..
Who said its all up to the parents? I said somewhere on another thead parents should be the first line of defense.
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you wrote that it's ultimately the parents responsibility ...I re- phrased it to say...it's up to the parents...
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It is ultimately the parents responsibility. Parents are the ones who make the final decision. Unless of course a child is court appointed.
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I am not sure what Carey is trying to say or prove in making any connection with ISAC and Sue Scheff. Last I heard, we had the freedom to associate with anyone. To make a business connection because they may write or telephone, is an assumption. And with what right would any body have to check their phone records to see if they talk to each other. This is not the issue. The issue is Carey giving information to WWASP. From what I have been told, Carey went to Sue for help. Sue, certainly did not solict Carey. Now payback is lets hang all the people that helped Carey in her need. Sue, Lee and Nancy or anyone else that Carey is bashing went to Carey. She went to them for help. They helped her through a difficult time and because there were disagreements, Carey has made it a personl crusade to hang all of the people who helped her. That is evil. I do agree to turn over records to the appropriate people, police attorneys, etc not WWASP. This was confidential information that Carey requested and then used against the people who helped her. I know, I was there.
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On 2003-10-15 11:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The problem with "it's all up to the parents" ..
is parents don't always make the best decisions for their children...that's why every state has child abuse laws.
And we all know how wonderfully that has worked out!
Seriously, folks. When you see the light at the end of the tunnle, listen for a train whistle!
if you're for a "buyer beware" market- that's what we already have.
No it's not. What we have now is liberty and justice to the highest bidder. Tell me if the following is not true, to the best of your knowledge.
If a kid manages to escape through a window or sneak out in the night, whether they're in SLC, Utah or somewhere in Jamaica, can he or she just walk up to officer friendly, tell them their story and expect to get protection? Hell no! Officer friendly is going to abide by the laws and regulations governing minor children in the custody of a school or treatment facility. He's not going to help the kid, he's going to take the kid, by force if need be, directly back to his abusers then go home and swig a few beers and try to forget the troubles of the day.
OTOH, when some sadistic lunatic who happens to be affiliated with some powerful Mormons in Utah has a problem with, in his view, misguided worries over how the kids in his facility are treated, can he just go to those same authorities, maybe remind them how much cash he provides to their favorite cause or lobby and get them to sweep it all under the rug? Why yes! Yes he can! In fact, it happens again and again and again.
http://fornits.com/anonanon/articles/20 ... 0526-7.htm (http://fornits.com/anonanon/articles/200305/20030526-7.htm)
it's the kids that are the losers. Without strong advocates they are lost and with out new regulations and standards it can be dangerous for some...."
New regulations and standards are only going to create an even better smoke screen for these people to hide behind.
People like to think that it's just the money. It's not. A fool and his money are soon parted, it's true. But just because these people are certifiable nut cases doesn't mean they're dumb. It's what they do with the money. They invest it in public policy. And it comes back to them many times over.
If you want to do something in the public sector to help these kids, see if you can eliminate funding and mandates for the piss tests that are so often used to provide the indictments to hold over the kids' heads. Eliminate the Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
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On 2003-10-15 11:40:00, Carey wrote:
"It is ultimately the parents responsibility. Parents are the ones who make the final decision. Unless of course a child is court appointed."
Yes, this is very, very true. HOWEVER, people don't come to the decision to hire professional kidnappers to deliver their kids to private prisons on remote islands in a vacume. How many times have we heard "But he was getting arrested!" or "He's diagnosed ADHD and he was selling his meds!" or "But ....." whatever other messed up things the adults in the kid's life might have done to him.
I've heard many, many times of parents placing their kids in these gulags to avoid what they thought would be a worse situation in juvenile detention.
Don't take my word on this. Look into it yourself. If you check and see who is lobbying the hardest for all this "prison without walls" legislation regarding kids, you'll find out where your retirement fund is really gowing.
It really is as simple as two questions; who's fuckin' who and where'd the money go?
Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism--how passionately I hate them!
--Albert Einstein
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On 2003-10-15 13:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I do agree to turn over records to the appropriate people, police attorneys, etc not WWASP. This was confidential information that Carey requested and then used against the people who helped her. I know, I was there."
Well, if we're talking discovery material, then WWASP lawyers would be the apropriate authorities. Ask Lee.
But I still don't know what highly sensitive, personal meterial we're talking about. Are we talking about customer contact lists? Cause I've still seen no evidence to support the notion that what PURE is doing is any better or significantly different than what WWASP is doing. Like I said long ago, Hitler hated Stalin, Stalin hated Hitler. They both tried to drive out or kill every Jew they could. Six of these, half dozen of the other.
It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.
Thomas Jefferson
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Ginger, what are you missing? This has nothing to do with PURE or Sue Scheff. If you want to defend Carey, ask her what she gave WWASP.I don't, nor have the Colburns ever worked for PURE or Sue. Because we posted on her site, does not mean we are on her payroll. I am posting right here, am I on your payroll? That is a ridiculous assumption. Carey went to Sue and ask for help, at that point, we all tried to help her. Confidential information (not PURE's info). Just our experiences and positions on children's abuse going on. I don't know any negative info on PURE to share with anyone. If you are a survivor, you know how they operate. Our opinions of WWASP or Straight are our opinions and not to be shared with WWASP, so they can try to tie up everyone in a court battle for slander. Its our experiences and opinions. I wish you had been around when Carey was begging all of us to help her and we were there for her, only to be stabbed in the back afterwards. In your opinion, is this right?
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Let me introduce to you Blanche aka Grams.
She claims to never have worked for PURE.
Work doesn't always get compensation.
I remember emailing Sue off her site and to my surpise - you replied. This would be considered work to some. Your first email contained info that I shouldn't go to wwasp because they stole your grand-daughter. You seem to be an expert on the WWASP abuse going on at CrossCreek, but that's pretty hard to see when you're in FUCKING TEXAS! If my grandchild was kidnapped I'd camp out in front of that place with cement shoes. Obviously you didn't think there was that much abuse or you don't think that highly of your grand-daughter.
Here is the problem you people don't get (in my opinion) -
You love to bitch about Carey - Love to bitch about just about anything.
I don't think the solution here is shutting down these places - More regulation is the answer.
The parents in need aren't going to go away - We are living in weird world with kids and parents messing up.
Just because tupperware warps in the dishwasher doesn't mean I want to put them all out of business - I want them to improve the product.
If you want to help kids - Get on the phone to your local reps to start legislation that will put more rules.
The places you PURE people refer to don't have any more rules on them than WWASP.
- This one's for Lee -
Just my POV
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Hi Carey:
Nice to hear from you too. But, why under anon? It is so obvious it is your ranting.
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does it come as a surprise that PURE has more enemies than just WWASP and Carey.
Hello!!!
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So what's your story? Will we, the public ever get to hear it, or are you just here to shoot "drive by" comments like all the others anons involved in the feud?
And no, I'm not in either camp.
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On 2003-10-15 13:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am not sure what Carey is trying to say or prove in making any connection with ISAC and Sue Scheff. "
Sue, ISAC is where I first got the hot tip that you wanted to sue me. Future note. Don't waste your money on costly PR campaigns. Just contact ISAC with your press release, but mark it *** SECRET ***
Marti, it breaks my heart to see you being taken for this same old ride yet again. Please wake up.
If you believe that people cannot be trusted to govern themselves,
then can they be trusted to govern others?
--Thomas Jefferson
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On 2003-10-15 17:06:00, Grams wrote:
"Ginger, what are you missing? This has nothing to do with PURE or Sue Scheff. If you want to defend Carey, ask her what she gave WWASP.I don't, nor have the Colburns ever worked for PURE or Sue. Because we posted on her site, does not mean we are on her payroll. I am posting right here, am I on your payroll? That is a ridiculous assumption.
Ok, Blanche, you've worn me down. If you insist, I'll list you and the Colburns and anyone else who posts to this site and wants to be listed as "Fornits volunteers", OK? Will that make you happy? It's Blanche Hardy, right? From Granbury, TX? Do you want your email address included? Would you like a special "Fornits Volunteers" forum? Are you willing to pitch for the extra bandwidth and disk space?
Carey went to Sue and ask for help, at that point, we all tried to help her.
Oh yeah! I've seen a good sampling of that kind of 'help'. I had about enough of that over 20 years ago.
Confidential information (not PURE's info). Just our experiences and positions on children's abuse going on. I don't know any negative info on PURE to share with anyone. If you are a survivor, you know how they operate.
Exactly! That's why it's so damned easy for me to see you guys coming. I know all the lines verbatum. Sure wish Marti would wise up. Despite recent differences, I knew her a long time ago and sincerely wish the best for her.
Our opinions of WWASP or Straight are our opinions and not to be shared with WWASP, so they can try to tie up everyone in a court battle for slander.
Uh, opinions and true facts are not slander. Don't let anyone run you around. You have every right to speak your mind right out in public. They may sue, but they will lose. Hell, they'll sue anyway if they want to, even if they have to plant evidence. Ask Svetlana. Maybe she can draw on her experience growing up in the Soviet Union.
Your best bet, honestly, is to not only spread the word so far and wide that they can't accomplish shutting you up (cause the word's already out, regardless of how hard they spank you) but also put the word out everywhere for anyone who's gotten a letter of demand threatening a SLAP suit to send copies of those letters. Then you get to (collectively?) clean there ever lovin' clocks for filing frivolous lawsuites. Instead, you all cower in your respective corners, jumping at shadows and pretending to yourself that you've got some hot info worth big bucks to WWASP and you're the only ones. You haven't. You're not. You just still in the Program.
Its our experiences and opinions. I wish you had been around when Carey was begging all of us to help her and we were there for her, only to be stabbed in the back afterwards. In your opinion, is this right? "
Depends on how you define "stabbed in the back". If, by that, you mean breaking with the group opinion and refusing to come into agreement, well, in my opinion, that's one of the rightest things any human being can do.
Now, please spend some time and look over all the Carey bashing threads. Hey, why not invite your grandaughter to join you. Then you tell me if this is the way civilized human beings ought to treat eachother.
THAT, more than anything (except your website) is what has destroyed your credibility with this reader. What others make of it, I don't know. Why not ask them?
Understand that legal and illegal are political, and often arbitrary,
categorizations; use and abuse are medical, or clinical, distinctions.
--Abbie Hoffman
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I agree with the post by Antigen.
I would like to add though that PURE or anyone representing opinions as FACT is against the law if it inflicts damages.
Problem is that Blanche cries about abuse when her info is second hand. She doesn't even have the parent perspective. So she's way down the line.
The actual affected are really the ones that can present the facts of what goes on in these places.
My problem with PURE is that they represent too much of their info as fact. I don't see any former kids of programs on your list of little helpers.
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Well I'll be damned! Never thought to look right on the front page for the link. They do still advertise escort services!
http://www.helpyourteens.com/safe_trans ... vices.html (http://www.helpyourteens.com/safe_transport_services.html)
"Some teens are willing to get help, others will go under false pretense, and then there is the need for escorting."
Try asking them. If that doesn't work, lie to them. If that fails, what the hell, just drug them and hire a kidnapper!
I don't see what you're talking about wrt opinion stated as fact. Blanche posts to the board, but I haven't found anything by her on the site. However, she did fall, hook, line and sinker, for the "anyone who doesn't agree with PURE is killing children" thing.
I think they've got a really new spin on an old concept. At least according to their website, they play down the evil drug culture thing to some extent. The only assurance I've been able to get out of them as to the quality and ethics of the programs they refer to has been "they're not WWASP". I wonder if they refer to Elan? And why they don't list the schools, boot-camps and programs so that people can do a little checking on their own?
One of these days, I'll put a friend up to getting more info.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.
--Plato
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More on Safeguard-More than just escorts:
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2001/6/np1.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2001/6/np1.html)
Safeguard uses a transition TEAM consisting of the: family, case manager, transition counselor, and family therapist. Together they create a transition support plan that offers an assessment of the child?s needs based on interviews with parents, reviews of records and phone interviews with the case manager at the current residential facility.
Safe and Sound:
http://www.safeandsoundtransportation.c ... /index.htm (http://www.safeandsoundtransportation.com/pages/905965/index.htm)
In the early morning of the day of the transport, it will be necessary to have parents lead us into the childs bedroom, and after gently waking the child, introduce us. After a brief introduction and explanation of who we are and where the child is going, the parents will be required to immediately leave the area. They should then go to a place in the home where they will not be seen or heard by the child, or even better, actually leave the premises.
The transport team will encourage your child to dress, and then accompany your child to their waiting vehicle. It is then that the transport will begin. We will have food and beverages in the vehicle to ensure proper nourishment. We also will ask parents prior to transport what the childs 'comfort foods' are, and keep the vehicle stocked.
To assist in reassuring your child, our staff has researched each of the schools and programs and will have materials and information on hand to share with your child, should that be deemed appropriate.
Based on your individual needs, we are able to provide hard-working and experienced Transportation staff to include Registered Nurses, Certified Nurse Assistants, Teachers, Licensed Social Workers, Military Police and local law enforcement agents, to name some. Because of the diverse qualifications of our staff, we are able to provide staffing on a 'best-match' system, based on the specific needs of each client.
All of our staff have at the very minimum, a HS Diploma or equivalent, while most have varying college experience, from some college, through to advanced degrees.
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In around November of 1982, I lay sleeping soundly in the spare room at my brother's house, having fallen asleep just glad to be out of the Program and looking forward to getting a new start in life.
When I heard my mother's voice calling my name "Virginia, Virginia. Wake up. It's time to go now." I thought I was just having another one of those dreams. The scene before me when I opened my eyes was all too surreal, but I knew just the same that it was quite real. There stood my mother and a couple of other adult figures around my comfy bed. When the lights went on, I recognized one of them as a Straightling from the parent group in Sarasota. The other I didn't recognize at all.
The plan, of course, was to catch me unawares and bundle me off to the Program again. THAT was not going to happen, even if my brother and sil hadn't woken up and come out of their room to see what the ruckus was all about. So my choices were then limted to physical assault or any other suggestion. When my sil suggested calling the police, it seemed like the best option. At least I was pretty sure I could slug the cop or go for his weapon and buy a little time in police custody and, maybe, find some more options.
Fortunately for me, Stone Mountain or Decalb County police (I don't remember which) were totally uncorrupted by the Program that had been taking root in Cobb County on the other side of Atlanta. All I had to do was give my side of the story when asked.
When the cop first got there, my mom said something charictaristically cold and below the belt. I don't remember what it was, but she did get a rise out of me and I started to let her have it (verbally). The cop told us to stop it. He was right, of course. So my mom thanks him and proceeds to gear up in that signature shrill tone of hers and proceed with whatever manic rant she'd been rehersing on the drive up from Florida.
This officer responded, without hesitation, by placing his 6'+ self between her and me, leaning in on her (towering, really. neither one of us is over about 5'2) and asking her if she'd heard and understood his instruction and if she wanted to be arrested! Talk about flipping the script! Her eyes went wide as tea saucers as her jaw audibly popped open (or maybe it was her dentures slipping). This brought tears of joy and relief to my eyes. Not my mother's obvious distress. That was only amusing. But that, like Dad always told me, I really could count on a cop when I was in over my head.
Once he'd determined who was and was not family, ejected the strangers and heard from all four of the rest of us, he informed us that, in Georgia, 17 was the default age of emancipation. Mom tried to convince him that Florida jurisdiction applied cause I was officially a runaway in that state. "No dice", said this officer. "You're in Georgia and I am an officer of the law here. This young lady is an adult under Ga. law and if she doesn't want to go with you, I can't make her."
So the cop asked if there was anything else he could do and we said no, thank you very much, I think we're alright now. Then he started to leave and Mom missed her que and thought she was going to hang around. My brother told her to go (by then, it was around 1AM and we all had to be up and on the go starting at around 6) she again tried to play that she had some claim to be there because I was her minor child or cause she was kin or something. Again, the cop reminded her who's house and jurisdiction she was in and asked her if she wanted to leave the house voluntarily or with a little help.
You want to know just how into the drink my mom was? On the way to the door, she turns to my brother and says "Why do you leave your doors open at night. Any crazy person could just walk right in while you're sleeping!" "Yeah", said my brother, "they just did!". Absolutely no sense of irony whatever on the part of the deeply brainwashed.
I have to say, this cop saved me more sorrow and heartache than he could possibly have known at the time. He and several other area officers who I met in the course of subsiquent kidnapping attempts, did more to bouy my faith in law enforcement than anyone ever has. He was walking proof that there are still some good ones. So later in life, whenever I had contact with Florida cops, it would always bring on a panic attack, which would always prompt a response from them. Purely because I had seen with my own eyes that some of them could be trusted, I was able to keep a grip and not make it any worse.
It's heartbreaking and frightening to me that SWAT team members and jugheads have switched sides.
As grateful as I am to those good cops still in the ranks, I have to ask you to do just one more task. This one's harder, but I think you'll agree it's your duty. You good and faithful officers MUST, if you love your profession, respect your uniform and know decency, you MUST take these rogue officers into custody for the crimes they are commiting. All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing. These are your dogs. You have to call them off. No one else can, except by armed rebellion.
He who laughs lasts
--Crazy Mac